Who wants to explain coilovers to the newb?

[peepsalot]

Ok, so does the MSP already have coilovers? Aftermarket ones would tighten up handling I guess? What are the differences between stock and some aftermarket coilovers? I hardly know what they are, enlighten me please.

I like the sporty feel of the MSP suspension when going through turns, but then I turn around and curse it every time I ride down a bumpy road. Is there any way to get a smoother ride without sacrificing performance, or do the two simply not play well together?

[blynzoo]

There are two parts to this: The spring and the spring damper (we call the dampers "shocks" in the US).

The spring is a simple mechanical device, in that by its design it provides so many ft lbs of resistance. Most springs are progressive, i.e. you can usually see two or more "zones" in the spring that offer various resistance. Usually a small portion of the spring is soft and provides bump softening, the rest of it takes care of the bigger bumps.

The damper -- Ill call it a shock from now on, although bugs the hell out of me -- is there to control the movement of the spring. Ever rode in someone's old caddy, or olds, and the car rolls up and down after hitting a bump like it's on waves? That's because the springs are still doing there jobs, but the shocks are shot, and are not controlling the movement of the spring. Ideally, the spring should only compress/decompress once. The shock is what controls the movement of the spring.

Jesus, this is getting long. You better make this a sticky.

The shock has two "settings"...at least. There is the rate of compression, the rate at which the shock allows the spring to compress. YOu dont want the spring to just shoot up and end up bottoming out every time you run over a twig (exaggerated example). Too stiff, and the spring doesnt give at all, and the car goes bouncing up in the air.

THe second setting is the speed at which the shock moves the spring back down to the pavement. The stiffer the shock -- to a point -- the quicker the wheel gets back down to the ground.

Okay, got all that?

Coilovers are combination shock/spring combos, most often adjustable. Do a search on the site to find them. You will see a spring on an adjustable perch on the strut, and within that spring you will see the shock (spring damper).

When looking at aftermarket coilovers, you want to compare a) the spring rate with your current spring rate and b) the compression and rebound stiffness of the shock. Too soft, and you get a smoother ride with decreased handling and increased body roll, too stiff and you're riding in a kart down city streets.

I didnt get into how the shocks physiologically work, through hydraulics and heat. Someone else can do that.

Hope this helps.

[Gbourdon]

If I am not mistaken we have coilovers. Just not adjustable coilovers. Otherwise they would be struts. (scratch)

[torque222]

There are two parts to this: The spring and the spring damper (we call the dampers "shocks" in the US).

The spring is a simple mechanical device, in that by its design it provides so many ft lbs of resistance. Most springs are progressive, i.e. you can usually see two or more "zones" in the spring that offer various resistance. Usually a small portion of the spring is soft and provides bump softening, the rest of it takes care of the bigger bumps.

The damper -- Ill call it a shock from now on, although bugs the hell out of me -- is there to control the movement of the spring. Ever rode in someone's old caddy, or olds, and the car rolls up and down after hitting a bump like it's on waves? That's because the springs are still doing there jobs, but the shocks are shot, and are not controlling the movement of the spring. Ideally, the spring should only compress/decompress once. The shock is what controls the movement of the spring.

Jesus, this is getting long. You better make this a sticky.

The shock has two "settings"...at least. There is the rate of compression, the rate at which the shock allows the spring to compress. YOu dont want the spring to just shoot up and end up bottoming out every time you run over a twig (exaggerated example). Too stiff, and the spring doesnt give at all, and the car goes bouncing up in the air.

THe second setting is the speed at which the shock moves the spring back down to the pavement. The stiffer the shock -- to a point -- the quicker the wheel gets back down to the ground.

Okay, got all that?

Coilovers are combination shock/spring combos, most often adjustable. Do a search on the site to find them. You will see a spring on an adjustable perch on the strut, and within that spring you will see the shock (spring damper).

When looking at aftermarket coilovers, you want to compare a) the spring rate with your current spring rate and b) the compression and rebound stiffness of the shock. Too soft, and you get a smoother ride with decreased handling and increased body roll, too stiff and you're riding in a kart down city streets.

I didnt get into how the shocks physiologically work, through hydraulics and heat. Someone else can do that.

Hope this helps. could you repeat that, i mean retype that? lol j/k...good explanation/ well put

[Mallard]

No, we have a MacPherson Strut suspension. Not the same thing as a coilover, although similar. The term coilover is usually used for dampers that have threaded shock bodies that allow adjustable ride height. I can't think of an instance myself where it is used otherwise. (I may be wrong...I think AWR might call their suspension 'coilovers' but they aren't adjustable...although i'd never use that terminology.)

[peepsalot]

So what, besides adjustablility, are the differences from our MacPherson Struts and coilovers?

How easy is it to adjust coilovers? The two "settings" are what is adjustable, and ride height also? Or is ride height an effect of adjusting those settings.

And it sounds like you are saying that smooth ride and good handling performance are mutually exclusive?

[blynzoo]

It depends. The spring resistance is inherent in the build of the spring, i.e. it cannot be changed. You can adjust -- in the case of adjustable shocks, of course :) -- both the compression and rebound rates of the spring damper. In all adjustable coilovers you can adjust the ride height. That's what makes them adjustable.

Stockers on most cars (Porsche, M-Series, AMG, some Audis, Range Rover, and others are exceptions) are totally sealed dampers. You cant adjust them. Nor can you adjust the spring height. For this you need aftermarket coilovers.

Just take a look at pictures of them on this board, you will see what we are describing visually.

[tonkabui]

the performance of coilovers are only fully realized when you use them right. the reason for ride height adjustment is for weight balancing on the car through cornerweights. by adjusting the height, you can get the car closer to a 50/50 weight distribution. when you adjust dampening and rebounding, it usually is for specific road courses.

[vodapas77]

So what, besides adjustablility, are the differences from our MacPherson Struts and coilovers?

How easy is it to adjust coilovers? The two "settings" are what is adjustable, and ride height also? Or is ride height an effect of adjusting those settings.

And it sounds like you are saying that smooth ride and good handling performance are mutually exclusive?

Well there isn't a lot of difference. It's the same basic idea the coil spring surrounds the damper. The main difference is that with a MacPherson strut design the spring and the damper are not connected. With a coil-over the spring is actually held on one end by a ring that is attached to the damper. This allows you to change the ride height of the vehicle by moving the ring up and compressing the spring.

Now, keep in mind there are two different types of coil-overs on the market. Full coil-overs (JIC,Tein) and sleeve type coil overs (Ground Control, Skunk 2). There is a lot difference here. A ful coil over will include dampers and springs that are specifically intended to work together and they almost always allow you to adjust the level of dampening provided by the damper. Sleeve type simply come with replacement springs and a ring (sleeve) that attaches to your stock damper.

Basica rules of thumb are full coil-overs will cost you a hell of a lot more money than sleeve type. However, full coil overs allow you much more than just height adjustment and will actually improve your handling while still providing a decent ride. Sleeve type do little to improve anything but the stance of your car and reduce ride comfort which gets progressively worse the further the vehicle is lowered. This is because you are reducing the length of the spring's travel but the level of dampening is staying constant. Make sense?

As for whether or not good handling and ride comfort are mutually exclusive, that is really a matter of opinion. As far as I am concerned the ride comfort of my car was not degraded by my Tein S/S coil overs and the handling was most definitely improved. So, I would say that a properly tuned full coil over st up can provide both. But, I would say it would be tough in most cases to improve the ride comfort and the handling dramatically at the same time. With the possible exception of those super expensive electronicaly magnetic controlled suspensions offered on very high end cars. But, that is just my opinion.

[UnNaturalinc]

No pictures posted yet?

True coilovers
http://www.thedropshop.tv/scott/P4160002.jpg


Coilovers 'sleeves'
http://images.andale.com/f2/123/122/18716727/1102990264779_redcoils.jpg

Traditional spring/strut
http://www.e-tire.co.jp/omega/steinmetz_suspension-kit.jpg

[peepsalot]

Wow, those looks delicious. I see they are teins, which version are they? They make varying quality models, no? How much for those, I'm guessing 15 big ones, but I have no idea. Eh, not like I can really afford anything right now anyways. I just like learning about this stuff though, but maybe one day.

[goku4658]

^^thats hot

[UnNaturalinc]

Wow, those looks delicious. I see they are teins, which version are they? They make varying quality models, no? How much for those, I'm guessing 15 big ones, but I have no idea. Eh, not like I can really afford anything right now anyways. I just like learning about this stuff though, but maybe one day.

Actually the prices are not to bad for Tein. Both SS and Basics are made for the BJ chassis Protege.

I'm eventually going to swap out my Tokico/Goldline setup for a full coilover system. Not sure if I'm going with JIC or Tein yet.

[Dexter]

whats all the adjustment shit on the top of the coilover?

[UnNaturalinc]

whats all the adjustment shit on the top of the coilover?

Some systems have adjustable pillow ball mounts (aka camber plates).


Also keep in mind... alignments are not cheap. However, when I had my car aligned last they had a special where you spend $120 and have lifetime alignments. That'd be nice if you changed your setup for the track on the weekends.

[jaman]

Sleeve type do little to improve anything but the stance of your car and reduce ride comfort which gets progressively worse the further the vehicle is lowered. This is because you are reducing the length of the spring's travel but the level of dampening is staying constant. Make sense?


I doubt dampening is linear. So if you compress the spring you are also compressing the damper which implies that the dampening does not stay constant. However, this does not mean that the new dampening is correct.

[Mallard]

Some systems have adjustable pillow ball mounts (aka camber plates).


Also keep in mind... alignments are not cheap. However, when I had my car aligned last they had a special where you spend $120 and have lifetime alignments. That'd be nice if you changed your setup for the track on the weekends.
If you can use a measuring tape and a wrench you can do your own alignments. With camber plates it's even easier. Set the camber, measure toe, change, measure again, tighten nut, drive away.

[Mallard]

Sleeve type coilivers also allow you to source your own shock instead of being stuck with whatever Tein, JIC, etc uses.

[popnfresh]

so what's the difference between shocks and struts?

[1moreMPH]

so are coilovers a cheap/bad way to lower your car and make handeling a bit better? cuz my friend just got me some from ebay...and i don't wanna put them on if they gonna suck or wear out something in the suspension....

[UnNaturalinc]

so are coilovers a cheap/bad way to lower your car and make handeling a bit better? cuz my friend just got me some from ebay...and i don't wanna put them on if they gonna suck or wear out something in the suspension....

Did he get actual coilovers or just coilover sleeves?

[1moreMPH]

Did he get actual coilovers or just coilover sleeves?

no they're actual, fully-adjustable coil-overs (with the springs and 'shocks' together).

[UnNaturalinc]

no they're actual, fully-adjustable coil-overs (with the springs and 'shocks' together).

Well depending on brand and quality of them... Coilovers are the best suspension method.

[1moreMPH]

Well depending on brand and quality of them... Coilovers are the best suspension method.

i never heard of 'em...so i was a little skeptical...they are "Jax Racing" coilovers that my friend got from ebay. they were something like 70 bucks...so i dunno, i guess i could try?

[UnNaturalinc]

i never heard of 'em...so i was a little skeptical...they are "Jax Racing" coilovers that my friend got from ebay. they were something like 70 bucks...so i dunno, i guess i could try?

70 bucks does not sound like true coilovers. They are probably just the cheap sleeves that slide over the stock strut.

I would never use those on a vehicle I own.

[1moreMPH]

70 bucks does not sound like true coilovers. They are probably just the cheap sleeves that slide over the stock strut.

I would never use those on a vehicle I own.


He send pics to me and they look like the real deal. they have the damper and spring together...and just bolt the whole thing in place of the stockers...

[UnNaturalinc]

He send pics to me and they look like the real deal. they have the damper and spring together...and just bolt the whole thing in place of the stockers...

Post the pics so we can all see them....

[peepsalot]

Yeah, i'd be interested in seeing them. I tried googling for jax coilovers and came up with absolutely nothing.

[peepsalot]

Ok, I was just looking at a thread for tokico struts. They make illumina "5 way" adjustable struts. This is similar to a coilover except for the spring? So if they were paired with coilover sleeves, it would be pretty much a true coilover setup?(except that the parts weren't made specifically to go together)
Dammit I'm confused again.

[low_psi]

Its very simple :) You're too busy getting caught up in names, you need to just focus on the fuctionality of the parts.

Ideally, you want dampers that are specificly tuned for the frequency of the springs they control. So if you aren't lucky enough to have custom valved dampers for your specific springs, adjustable dampers are the next best way of finding a close to optimum damper setting. In addition to having adjustable dampening, being able to adjust ride height without preloading the springs is another plus if you don't go the custom route. Don't worry so much about what the part is called, worry about its ability to tune your suspension.

Depending on what springs you get for your MSP, you may not need the Illuminas since the HP's are a bit over dampened for the RacingBeat springs.

[Hellnightkid]

are there any Coilovers fit well on MSP?
How is NEW Dropzone Coilovers ..its $120

[low_psi]

coilovers or coilsleeves? dropzones are complete shit.

[Hellnightkid]

someth like this
http://www.slickcar.com/productdetails.asp?ProductID=4149

[low_psi]

Ground Control makes the best coilsleeves in the industry IMO. Skunk2 has a set that ppl have been happy with too, but Dropzone is a no go. There is a reason GC charges $400 while DZ charges $150. Its not jsut the name. I wouldn't trust a car riding on DZs.

[apocman]

I would have to trust mx3ownzj00 advice seeing how he is an autocrosser and I would assume he would be into suspensions big time....



Ground Control makes the best coilsleeves in the industry IMO. Skunk2 has a set that ppl have been happy with too, but Dropzone is a no go. There is a reason GC charges $400 while DZ charges $150. Its not jsut the name. I wouldn't trust a car riding on DZs.

[UnNaturalinc]

Price of the product should also account for something also.

[apocman]

that is true...



Price of the product should also account for something also.

[low_psi]

Price of the product should also account for something also.
There is a reason GC charges $400 while DZ charges $150. Its not just the name.

:) Build quality and spring quality are what sets GC apart. How many track prepped BMWs do you see with Dropzones?

[UnNaturalinc]

Yeah, exactly..... GC uses Eibach springs not some random mass produced ones.

Never the less, I would never use coilover sleeves anyway. Real coilovers or nothing is my philosophy of suspension. Well, standard spring/strut setup is ok. But I really hate those sleeve things. :shakeshead:

You can pick up sleeves off ebay for like $60 or so shipped if I recall.

[Hellnightkid]

thx guys,,forget about DZ...i bought the FAlken P5 one from GB.....75 drop is too little for my MSP thu.....btw hows the install?

[low_psi]

Install is straight forward. Remove brake line from struts, unbolt endlink from strut(use lots of penetrating lube), unbolt struts from hub, unbolt strut from chasis, compress spring and then remove the strut top mount nut. Then put the new ones on in reverse order.

[enrike]

just by reading i think i need better shocks cuz mine are making a weird noise every time i hit a bump

[qikslvr2006]

Ok guys, I got Eiback springs a while back. I love the drop and my car handles better than any ca I have driven or ridden in. well maybe not my friends M3. lol

any who I have been looking at getting some coilovers prob tein. But does anyone know how the AWR fully adjustables are? that are on ProtegeGarage.com. Those were what I was goin to get even though they are $1900. But no one talks about them or has mentioned them at all(that I could find).

But since I love the ride height of my car, I was thinking about just getting tein 5way adjustable shocks ($450 to $550 depending on where u get them). people seem to like them, and I wont be adjusting them all the time but it will let me dial in my suspension better.

I just can't make up my mind. on what I want to do. I guess having cailovers wouldn't be very important cause I don't want to adjust the height of my car. the stance is awesome, as said by my friends and faller. and the fact i get a woodie when i see my car. lol sorry

thanks ahead of time guys.

[Mallard]

Ok guys, I got Eiback springs a while back. I love the drop and my car handles better than any ca I have driven or ridden in. well maybe not my friends M3. lol

any who I have been looking at getting some coilovers prob tein. But does anyone know how the AWR fully adjustables are? that are on ProtegeGarage.com. Those were what I was goin to get even though they are $1900. But no one talks about them or has mentioned them at all(that I could find).

But since I love the ride height of my car, I was thinking about just getting tein 5way adjustable shocks ($450 to $550 depending on where u get them). people seem to like them, and I wont be adjusting them all the time but it will let me dial in my suspension better.

I just can't make up my mind. on what I want to do. I guess having cailovers wouldn't be very important cause I don't want to adjust the height of my car. the stance is awesome, as said by my friends and faller. and the fact i get a woodie when i see my car. lol sorry

thanks ahead of time guys.
I had the AWR's on my car. They handled extremely well at the track. I was happy with them, even though I had my share of installation problems and you do get some creeks and rattles. On my MSP I couldn't run my stock wheels without spacers and longer wheel studs, but my Rota Slipstream's fit fine. I had to run camber bolts in the rear or else I had positive camber. AWR was supposed to send me rear camber plates to fix this, but he stopped responding to my e-mails and I sold the car. I would probably order shorter length springs for the rear too. I still have mine and would sell them for $1200 +Shipping. I still have my Rota's with brand new tires on them too.

On the street the AWR's were VERY stiff. I hated taking long trips or going down anything but buttery smooth roads.

[qikslvr2006]

I had the AWR's on my car. They handled extremely well at the track. I was happy with them, even though I had my share of installation problems and you do get some creeks and rattles. On my MSP I couldn't run my stock wheels without spacers and longer wheel studs, but my Rota Slipstream's fit fine. I had to run camber bolts in the rear or else I had positive camber. AWR was supposed to send me rear camber plates to fix this, but he stopped responding to my e-mails and I sold the car. I would probably order shorter length springs for the rear too. I still have mine and would sell them for $1200 +Shipping. I still have my Rota's with brand new tires on them too.

On the street the AWR's were VERY stiff. I hated taking long trips or going down anything but buttery smooth roads.


Thank you very much dude. I thik I will just get some awesome adjustable shocks. My car will be mostly street for the every now and then fun on curvy roads. lol send me a pic of ur wheels if you don't mind I am kinda in the market for some new wheelshaha. Do you know how much the weigh? Just a question. thanks

[qikslvr2006]

did anyone else notice i didn't spell eibach right hahahhaa

[ItsSlow]

did anyone else notice i didn't spell eibach right hahahhaa

Shut up, nobody cares! HOE!

and paint your car biatch!