MSP vs. 337 GTi (nothing to do with a race)

[Jhova1012]

Hey,
Ive been on these boards for a while now, and after about a year and a half im getting a car (wiggle) Only problem is im really having trouble deciding which one to get. I love Mazdas (fell in love with the MSP and then my friend got a P5 which I love to drive) and If it was just my decision I would get the msp, but its not... So im 17 and my mom insists that my car has side air bags and the MSP does not have them. My mother also loves VWs for some reason, which is cool I guess. So I showed her the 337 GTi (1.8t 6speed, 18in BBS rims, recaro interior, new suspension, limited production to 1500) also has side air bags (jerkit) I've always liked the GTi and I know its a nice car but at the same time I know it wont feel nearly as sharp as a MSP or even a P5. Im torn between the two cars. Mom wants me to be safe and I can respect that, but from what I've seen the MSP is a hella safe car (Dr. Sound rolled his over a friggin 300ft embankment) but for some reason the crash test data doesnt want to support my claim at all. Where as the Jetta/Golf platform got 5stars... I've researched the hell out of both cars and this is pretty much the bottom line.

GTi 337:
Bullet proof engine
Improved suspension over stock GTi but still plows the front end
Superb transmission
Small VW Quality Issues but overall mechanically sound
1.8t Loves mods

MSP
Stock FS-DE with a turbo slapped on
One of (if not the) best driving FF cars
Bad ecu
Many small bugs


I know im very lucky to have parents that are willing to buy me a car and so Im not going to try to force them into anything because I would end up in a crown vic or a focus. I would be VERY happy with either cars but theres just something special about the MSP in my eyes that a VW cant match. Didnt help much yesterday when I saw a titianum gray msp and then drove a p5 a few hours later. What are your thoughts?

[Artur1976]

Both are very good choices. Depends what is more important to u. The GTi can be made faster for a very small amount and the engine will handle it with no problems. Both cars have their fair share of small problems with relaiablity. Both are limited eddition so the resale value will hold well. I would drive both for an extended period of time not just a 30 min test drive. Check insurance rates also. U will defenitly need change the susspension on the GTi to enjoy auto x and spirited driving. If u mod the MSP u will not have warranty so watch out for that. I think VW dealers are more flexsible with moded cars. What kind of a price is the Gti going these days?

[Jhova1012]

Both are very good choices. Depends what is more important to u. The GTi can be made faster for a very small amount and the engine will handle it with no problems. Both cars have their fair share of small problems with relaiablity. Both are limited eddition so the resale value will hold well. I would drive both for an extended period of time not just a 30 min test drive. Check insurance rates also. U will defenitly need change the susspension on the GTi to enjoy auto x and spirited driving. If u mod the MSP u will not have warranty so watch out for that. I think VW dealers are more flexsible with moded cars. What kind of a price is the Gti going these days?Yeah I checked the insurance the GTi is a good deal cheaper than the msp and the p5... then again this was off of progressive.com so I guess I need to call usaa to get a more accurate qoute. Neither car will have any major mods (im in high school so I cant afford a fmic or new engine if it blows on me, so intake and exhaust thats about it) Im not a straight line person at all, sticking to an on ramp in a long curve is much more appealing to me than having a 13 second strip car. And the 337 is not cheap... They appear to be going from anywhere to 15 to 18k... Ive found msps with much less miles going for 14. I could buy a new 3 hatch for 18k. I think im leaning towards the MSP again but I just got to some how get my mom to see that its a safe car without the side airbags.

[Artur1976]

I would go with the MSP if u are not going to mod it much. There are some good deals on speeds, there was one on ebay with 5k miles for only 13k buy it now.

[Jhova1012]

I would go with the MSP if u are not going to mod it much. There are some good deals on speeds, there was one on ebay with 5k miles for only 13k buy it now.
Yeah... 170hp is more than enough power for me. So, I just need to get the mother to see that its a safe car.

[noclue119]

These were my two final choices. A few things i noticed about the two cars were that

I lived in atlanta and road here sucks. The GTI rides much lower and i didn't feel like bottoming out everywhere i go.
Also GTI is around 5k more in MRSP when it was new but used, i think the msp is much cheapers.
I every much dislike hte VW interor is too smooth and it really bothered me...
Did i mention if u ever want to upgrad the stero, it'd look out of place with that VW interior..

what really sold me were the mp3 player in the msp as well as the 8 in woofer. The sound in the msp was somthing the 20th GTI could never match.
last thing that really bothered me about the GTI was that evertyhing in the engine bay was covered by plastic so to work on something u have to take all hte plastic off first was in my mine was a waste of my time.
Things good about the GTI

its seats were much better
its ecu is much easier to chip(but kiss your warrenty good bye)
the GTI has more aftermarket support
its a wagon(i liked it cuz it fits a lot of shit)
the blue on red gauges light you can beat that
and lastly the GTI's Cast iron block. Too bad its tranny/electrical system is not as good as the engine.
Either car u pick, its a good choice but i'd say for handling, msp hands down for drag racing, go with the GTI.

[BlkZoomZoom]

I am both a VW tech and a Mazda tech. Both cars have similar know problems (radios, transmission issues, etc.) While I admit the VW is nice looking, it's still a VW. I hate VW's...

[Black Majik MSP]

I wanted to get a Black Magic 20AE GTI a couple years ago, but I decided to get the MSP instead. You should check out the link in my signature to see if the MSP is right for you. Let me tell you though, there are a lot of things in this thread that aren't true...

-GTIs don't have a "bullet-proof" engine. It IS strong, but Dubbers blow their motors just like we do.
-IMO, the tranny is better on the GTI than on the MSP (sporty car vs econo car), but compared to other cars in it's class, it's hardly superb.
-VW had it's fair share of quality issues/recalls with the Mk IV. I don't know if they have all been resolved by now, but I know people who had problems with the coil packs or who had their window regulators break 3 or 4x (& they were on national backorder).
-Go on VWvortex & you will see that VW dealers are some of the worst when it comes to voiding warranties.
-My insurance is cheaper than a GTI because my car is classified as an Protege ES.
-For good power without a lot of $$, I'd get a GTI. For good handling without a lot of $$, I'd get an MSP.

[CustomMSP]

Are there still problems with ignition coils being on back order? I'm looking into a GTI for my bro. Is that only for the 1.8t or the vr6 as well?

Thanks.

[Jhova1012]

Black what insurance co. do you use? And im really leaning back to the MSP again... I prefer a good balanced car that goes well, turns well and stops well to straight up speed anyday...

[Black Majik MSP]

I will find out from my VW friends what the latest is on those problems.

State Farm

[rocketspeed]

I traded my 03 GTI VR6 for my MSP.

For the most part, I'm happy I did. The GTI had a little more upscale interior and a vastly superior engine. Very smooth, tons of torque. Good acceleration in pretty much any gear, even from low RPM's. Also the hatchback is very handy. That said, I like the 2 extra doors of the MSP, the crazy insane handling and the relative rarity of it- I don't see many others. The suspension is the strength of the MSP.

Negatives of each- the GTI handles awful. Its way too softly sprung and way overweight. Expect mucho body roll and understeer. I can take the same highway ramps at 10-15 mph faster in the MSP. The shifter isn't great, but it isn't awful. The seats aren't bad.

The main negative of the MSP is its engine. Power delivery is not smooth and the engine isn't terribly flexible, although the little turbo will boost itself out of the low RPM's if you let it. Lots of hesitation under hard acceleration and occasional bucking and misfiring sorts of events. Its effectively a normal protege engine with an aftermarket turbo kit slapped on, and it feels like it. It drives a lot like a semi-sorted out tuner car. Seats stink, no lateral support.

Both cars had their share of minor glitches.

If you want a relatively easy car to mod with a big aftermarket and you either don't mind the crap handling or you're willing to invest big $ in coilovers, bars and so forth, you'll like the GTI.

The MSP is harder to mod and has a smaller aftermarket. The engines don't hold up well to increased boost. The bottom end isn't strong. A full rebuild is pretty much a must if you want to hold much more power than stock long term.

I'd break it down like this- great engine with iffy suspension- GTI
great suspension with iffy engine- MSP

[CustomMSP]

The GTI has a very strong chassis as well. With a nice suspension setup, the car can handle very well. But that costs a lot of money.

[memo79]

337

[anarchistchiken]

Does anybody know if you can put p5 seats (and the side air bags) in an MSP? Is there still the wiring in place for the airbags?

[2words]

337 just get the 20th anniversary i am in stead of msp

[geomatics_tech]

When I graduated last April my heart was set on a audi a4 1.8t. BUT, after reading reviews on audis (same shit as VW) I did a complete 180 as I was turned off by the reliability. Seems all German cars suffer from electrical gremlins.

Dont get me wrong, I still love audi/bmw/and some vw's. The thing is I can afford the car, just not the repair bills.

Shaun (canada)

[rocketspeed]

Also consider a Scion Tc, Focus SVT if you can find any left on the lots they will be a steal, Nissan Se-r spec V (also a steal) and maybe the Saturn Ion Red Line, which is selling with $3,750 in rebates right now. That's the fastest car you can get for under $20k, but the interior sucks other than an awesome set of Recaro seats and the exterior isn't super sexy either. I hear it drives well and the supercharger means good low rpm pull.

[mspdfreak]

Man, I'm really excited about the new Mustang GT. ( I know, I know)

But I read a recent article, and for the price ($25-26k) it seems like a great deal. Of course, I won't be making a decision for about another year, as I want to build up a little more equity on the 'speed, but the 'stangs numbers are phenomenol. 25mpg, less than 6 second 0-60, instant torque. Anyway...we'll wait and see.

[Dr.Sound]

recaro seats suck ass in redline.
i've been in one, just because they say recaro doesnt mean they are good.

VW's are nice, but the only VW i would get is passat, because it is THE ONLY ONE that is made in germany.
the rest are made in mexico and argentina.

a buddy of mine just got Jetta GLI.
great looking car. i think it's better looking that 20th Aniv GTI.
still, it's a VW..........

last week my mom's 2003 golf overheated because the temp sensor broke.
broken temp sensor did not turn the fans off, shich caused the water pump to burn out, and thermostat to get all funky.

[rocketspeed]

I've sat in the Red Line at the auto show and I really liked those Recaros, lots of support. Anything's better than our seats, which are almost a joke since the car handles so well. I can't stay in mine and probably will replace them.

Some of the VW's are made in Brazil too. Jetta wagons were made in Germany as well as the Passat.

One of the most annoying faults with those VW's is that MAF's are a wear item pretty much. They burn out regularly and are expensive as all hell to replace once you're out of warranty.

Window regulators were a big problem that seems to be fixed. Supposedly the coil pack problem has gotten better, but hasn't been eliminated.

[MetalSpeed]

Have yall seen the new chevy cobalt? I know it is not an import but is still nice though supercharged and nice body right around 21000. Just a thought.

[Dr.Sound]

isnt cobalt a redline?
both are GM

[MetalSpeed]

Never really thought about that,now that you brought that up I wouldn't doubt it.

[CustomMSP]

Everytime I look at your pic Dr. Sound I feel like jumping on a plane and flying out to CA for that beautiful sun!! Too bad I can't do that :(

[SpicyMchaggis]

for the price of the 337, get the R32.

[CustomMSP]

I've sat in the Red Line at the auto show and I really liked those Recaros, lots of support. Anything's better than our seats, which are almost a joke since the car handles so well. I can't stay in mine and probably will replace them.

Some of the VW's are made in Brazil too. Jetta wagons were made in Germany as well as the Passat.

One of the most annoying faults with those VW's is that MAF's are a wear item pretty much. They burn out regularly and are expensive as all hell to replace once you're out of warranty.

Window regulators were a big problem that seems to be fixed. Supposedly the coil pack problem has gotten better, but hasn't been eliminated.
Does this relate to the 1.8T or the VR6?

[Dr.Sound]

Everytime I look at your pic Dr. Sound I feel like jumping on a plane and flying out to CA for that beautiful sun!! Too bad I can't do that :(thanks man :)
it's like 83 here today.

[Ryoga28]

Like rocketspeed, I also traded in my 03 Tornado Red GTI for my MSP. Even with the eibach pro suspension set (springs, struts, and antisway bars), the car still can't out handle a msp. In addition, the transmission really sucks. It will grind at high rpms in almost every instance.

However if you are looking for a car with great mods availble to it, the the GTI or 337 is a great choice. There are tons of ecu mods, like apr, atp, or revo (which are plug and play). Forge also makes great parts for it.

After getting my transmission rebuilt 3 times by Sovereign Volkswagen, I got sick of beling blamed for the problems (grinding at 3rd gear). The last straw was when they refused to adjust the shifter (couldn't hit reverse 1/4 of the time) after their third repair because the claimed my warranty was voided. Months later, after trading it in for my msp, VW calls and appoligizes for the misinformation.

Maybe I got a lemon, but if you check out vwvortex, you'll see that the transmission is not really the strong point of that car.

Good luck!

[rocketspeed]

Does this relate to the 1.8T or the VR6?
The coil pack problem applies to both the 1.8t and Vr6, although it was worse in the 1.8t for whatever reason- but even the coil packs in the VR6 would fail. The window regulator problem was all Jetta/Golf IV's.

My comments mostly applied to the Vr6 that I had more experience with, but I've spent plenty of time in and around 1.8t's when I was part of that community. Out of the box, they are about as fast, with the Vr6 being the more flexible engine. When it comes to modded ones, its no contest unless you go FI on the Vr6- the 1.8t engine makes easy and reliable power.

[rocketspeed]

The MAF problem is also common to both- VW's MAF's don't live long. Check vwvortex for more.

[Black Majik MSP]

Like rocketspeed, I also traded in my 03 Tornado Red GTI for my MSP. Even with the eibach pro suspension set (springs, struts, and antisway bars), the car still can't out handle a msp. In addition, the transmission really sucks. It will grind at high rpms in almost every instance.

However if you are looking for a car with great mods availble to it, the the GTI or 337 is a great choice. There are tons of ecu mods, like apr, atp, or revo (which are plug and play). Forge also makes great parts for it.

After getting my transmission rebuilt 3 times by Sovereign Volkswagen, I got sick of beling blamed for the problems (grinding at 3rd gear). The last straw was when they refused to adjust the shifter (couldn't hit reverse 1/4 of the time) after their third repair because the claimed my warranty was voided. Months later, after trading it in for my msp, VW calls and appoligizes for the misinformation.

Maybe I got a lemon, but if you check out vwvortex, you'll see that the transmission is not really the strong point of that car.

Good luck!I should point out that your GTI had the 5spd whereas the 337 & 20AE have the 6spd. IIRC, it can hold more power & feels better all around than the 5spd.

[CustomMSP]

The MAF problem is also common to both- VW's MAF's don't live long. Check vwvortex for more.
What's the average life span?

Thanks a lot!

[Dr.Sound]

i have to admit, the 6-speed tranny on GLI, 20thGTi, and 337 are unbelievable......so smooth.

[rocketspeed]

The Vr6 also has the 6 speed and I wasn't nuts about it. Its not bad, but its not the best either. I'd call it pretty middle of the road. Maybe better than average when only FWD cars are considered.

The 5 speed is prone to grinding on fast shifts.

I'd check vwvortex for more info on the MAF's, I don't really know.

[ping]

Note too that IIRC the 337 has a stiffer suspension (and aftermarket suspensions are available for VW's - easily) and as noted above the better 6-speed trans. Trans-and-clutch wise the MSP's pretty weak so I wouldn't give the MSP the trans department, even compared to the 5-sp VW.

Handling? The MSP is really unbelievably wonderful for what it is, but it's harsh on the highway - the VW is smoother, more "grown up", more a performance middle-long distance car, the MSP is a sprinter/autocrosser - your choice.

Don't hassle the VWs for "reliability" - the MSP has plenty of electrical (and non) issues too (alarm, ECU, radio). VR6 VW's plow - the VR6 motor is heavy. Great power and phenominal sound, but heavy. 1.8T VW's handle better, lighter. 1.8T power delivery is much better than the MSP's peaky performance.

VW's interiors are hands-down better than the MSP. VW radios don't need a full trunk of sub to sound good (unless you're going for over-the-top performance, which the MSP has...). Exterior? Toss-up. I prefer the VW (even as an enthusiastic MSP owner) because it's cleaner and has a little more "hunk" to it.

Community? Can't get a more enthusiastic bunch, in general, than VW owners. Present company excepted - this is a Protege/Mazda board so it attracts enthusiasts - but there's strength in numbers and VW has numbers - and more aftermarket support as a result.

Safety? You're 17 and don't have driving experience as an asset - yet. You do need a safe car around you. Both VW and Mazda are small cars with modern safety features, and (side airbag or not) they're comparable. My cousin walked away from a 45+MPH head-on encounter with a pole, dead center to his GTI (not his fault - his car was struck in the side and pushed into the pole, popped both bags). Dr. Sound and others have survived that and worse in the MSP. As long as you use your seatbelt and don't get carried away you'll be as safe in one as the other.

The most important part of the safety/performance equation is you. Take a driving school (a good one, not through your school but through Bondaurant, Barber, etc.) and you'll be a better, safer driver. Lest you think safety wasn't important to me, I'm almost 43 and love 3 kids, love my wife, and have a mortgage - and leaving the (important) emotional side out of it, I have 4 other people who need me to be safe just to for them survive on the planet!

If I had it to do again, it would be VERY close. I really love my MSP but would probably get the GTI - but could be swayed (as I was for this purchase) by the financial end of the deal.

Enough already. Make the decision on which one stirs your passion, you can't go wrong.

[Jhova1012]

Cool, thanks guys.

[mspdfreak]

I tell ya, though, you really have to look closely to tell the VWs apart.

[Replica]

I'd love to have a GTI 1.8T...is that 337 premium really worth the money? Just get a loaded GTi. I've driven both and really like the smooth, torquey ride of the 1.8T although the tranny felt mushy. The MSP didn't really feel that much different than my P5...with a few suspension mods I think a P5 could be in MSP territory, be more reliable and cheaper...something to think about. And you get a hatch both ways!

[rocketspeed]

You'd be better off buying a basic GTI 1.8t and pour the extra dough into mods, you'd wind up with a way better car.

1.8t's are running under $17k right now out the door.

[anarchistchiken]

He doesnt have a set amount of money to do with as he pleases. His parents are buying this, so no extra $ left over for mods.

[rocketspeed]

He can probably get a new more basic 1.8t vs. the 337 or the MSP used, which is probably what he'll have to get since neither car is available new anymore.

[FSDET]

sorry for the ignorance but whats the 337 ? i know the 20th and gli but 337 ??

[Jhova1012]

337 is pretty much what the 20th AE became. The 337 was made in 2002, 1500 units same transmisson,interior, suspension found in the 20th AE. It has the rims from the current GLi and lacks the sun roof foundin the 20th AE and is a little lighter.

And yes the msp and 337 are used. Im not looking for a new car... trying not to spend more money than I have to, my parents are already paying for my trip to Arizona and New York, my little brothers tuition to a private school etc... blah blah blah...

[CustomMSP]

It's the special addition GTI with lowered suspension, 18" rims a little body kit and a 6spd

[Jhova1012]

http://www.futrellautowerks.com/images/forae3.jpg
20th AE (wheels are powder coated)

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/front3.jpg
337 GTi

[rocketspeed]

The 20th AE looks nice.

Seriously- you can go new 1.8t for under $17k- a used MSP will probably run you $14-15k, I'd guess the 20th AE or 337 will run more.

You can get a new Nissan SE-R spec V for $14k and change if you'd like a fun to drive car for short dough.

[FBI14]

VW in general have lots of mechnical problems

http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=GTI&number=5&DaysPrune=1000&LastLogin=

IMO there the worst cars on the roads for reliability and safety

[Ryoga28]

You guys are making miss my GTI...

[mspdfreak]

VW in general have lots of mechnical problems

http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=GTI&number=5&DaysPrune=1000&LastLogin=

IMO there the worst cars on the roads for reliability and safetyDayum, that makes me feel lucky I have an MSP.

[FSDET]

http://www.futrellautowerks.com/images/forae3.jpg
20th AE (wheels are powder coated)

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/front3.jpg
337 GTiive seen alot of 20th and i dont think they have PC rims, i think that guy PC it and droped the car himself

[Jhova1012]

ive seen alot of 20th and i dont think they have PC rims, i think that guy PC it and droped the car himself
Yes he did do that himself.

[CHICO2003]

this thread is fucking insane! lol It's worth noting that I only read the 1st page. DUDE!!! It sounds like your parents are pickin up the tab on this one. HTF is there even a choice here? Look, I LOVE the MSP as much as anyone. But come on.... though the 337 isn't an STI or EVO, it's certainly more in THAT class than the MSPs. (no way in hell I'm knockin my car here... I know what it's capable of) But seriously, a 337 is freakin badass!!! Yeah it's overpriced and isn't as fast as it should be. But it's AWD, has a kick ass interior, sweet exhaust, incredibely agressive looking (even more so than the msp!) and from what I hear, you can tune the shit out of these cars for very little money. While the handling might be better in an MSP, with all extras you get with the 337, you'd be a damn fool not to get one!

Now if you're actually payin for it yourself and price is a factor, there's no question... MSP all the way! These cars are clearly the best value in the used car market today. It's disgusting!!! If ONLY I hadn't bought new and instead bought one of these cars with 5k miles on it for like 15k... meanwhille, a new 337 goes (or went) for twice that. How anyone could buy a 337 over an STI or Evo is beyond me.

Anywayz man... good luck with your search. side airbags are nice to have and all but they shouldn't he the "must have" your mom has turned them into. There's a reason front airbags are required and sides aren't (yet anyway).

[FSDET]

But come on.... though the 337 isn't an STI or EVO, it's certainly more in THAT class than the MSPs. (no way in hell I'm knockin my car here... I know what it's capable of) But seriously, a 337 is freakin badass!!! Yeah it's overpriced and isn't as fast as it should be. But it's AWD, has a kick ass interior, sweet exhaust, incredibely agressive looking (even more so than the msp!) and from what I hear,

337 is awd ?

[ping]

337 is awd ?He's thinking R32.

R32 is AWD, basically the top-end Audi TT drivetrain in a GTI. Think along the lines of a low 6 second 0-60, AWD, and perhaps the sweetest 6 cylinder exhaust note on the planet (except maybe a few straight 6 jags, or a modified M3). As far as buying it over an STi or Evo... well, it's FAR more refined than either, quieter, more grown up, has longer legs and a kick-butt interior. Every decision is not made by track times alone.

337 and 20th AE are option packages on a FRONT wheel drive 1.8T GTI. Still fast (high 6's low 7's 0-60) but not an R32.

(VWVortex is almost always open in the OTHER window on my desktop...)

[FBI14]

Lol

[2words]

cool thread cause im gonna be traden for a msp or a gti 20th but repairs are a big factor. atleast if the mazda breaks i have you guys to help me fix it. plus it will be a cheeper payment.

[MazdaNeal]

337, I wish I had bought a gti. The insanely sluggish power delivery of the msp kills...

[rocketspeed]

The crap handling of the VW is just as bad- trust me, I traded my '03 VR6 for my MSP as I said above. The thing was so floaty on the highway, felt very insecure cornering at high speeds and lower speed more aggressive corners were all understeer.

The VW's also have a crappy electronic throttle that hesitates on hard shifts, at least in the new 24v Vr6. I didn't notice the hesitation with the 1.8t.

[Slider]

Jhova1012, buy a WRX, problem solved.

[FSDET]

i think whoeve is gonna trade in the msp for the 20th should wait another year for the new gti.. its really improved. better suspension, lighter car ( like the original rabbits) MADE IN GERMANY, comes with optional HIDs and navigation..... and around the same msrp

[rocketspeed]

You're right about the better suspension, but wrong about the weight and price. Check www.vwvortex.com (http://www.vwvortex.com) in the MkV section FAQ's.

Pricing hasn't been set yet, but is expected to be higher. The new 2.0t base version is expected to roughly sticker north of $20k. The current 1.8t stickers for below that.

Also, weight is up slightly vs. the current model. The revised suspension should (hopefully) help.

[Jhova1012]

I would look at the WRX but the insurance is insane.

[mspdfreak]

You know, that should be the first thing I think about, but insurance never seems to cross my mind until it's too late.

[anarchistchiken]

rocketspeed, he isn't thinking about the vr6. It's never even been an option. That's like comparing the mazda/ford v-6 to the fs-de.

Justin, I got a good idea. Go talk to VW people too and see what they think, then go check out the prices for aftermarket suspensions. In a year with the money you didn't spend on engine parts for the msp to have similair power to the 337, you could have a comparable suspension and the door to easy power would open up.

[CHICO2003]

He's thinking R32.

R32 is AWD, basically the top-end Audi TT drivetrain in a GTI. Think along the lines of a low 6 second 0-60, AWD, and perhaps the sweetest 6 cylinder exhaust note on the planet (except maybe a few straight 6 jags, or a modified M3). As far as buying it over an STi or Evo... well, it's FAR more refined than either, quieter, more grown up, has longer legs and a kick-butt interior. Every decision is not made by track times alone.

337 and 20th AE are option packages on a FRONT wheel drive 1.8T GTI. Still fast (high 6's low 7's 0-60) but not an R32.

(VWVortex is almost always open in the OTHER window on my desktop...)

Ok, my bad. since the two are much more similar than I thought, it's definitely a toss up. I agree, even though the R32 isn't nearly as fast as its main competition, it clearly is superior in other areas.

Anyway, now that I've got a clue... assuming price is no issue and these are the ONLY cars you're interested in (cuz I like the idea of waiting for the new GTI or getting a WRX better) I'd personally go with the MSP. 4 doors, more original, superior handling. If those types of things aren't high on your priority list and you value a near luxury car interior along with hatchback versatility and an insane aftermarket, the v-dub is the better choice.

[rocketspeed]

I'm talking about both. I've got a lot of experience with both cars. The 1.8t handles MARGINALLY better. Both cars handle about as well as a Toyota Camry. Total crap. The car can handle, but the suspension needs to be gutted- bars, coilovers, bushings- the whole 9 yards.

Either engine is great, though. Both the 1.8t and Vr6 engines are great.

If you want to seriously overhaul the suspension, the 1.8t is a great tuner car.

[murdock_]

if go with the vdub... nothing better than german engineering... quality second to none.

[Jhova1012]

Well yeah, I know... The VW does have better engineering behind it and its more refined than the the MSP... But I like rough edges, they add character.

[FBI14]

I guess everyone missed

http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=GTI&number=5&DaysPrune=1000&LastLogin


VW engineering....Last

[anarchistchiken]

I guess everyone missed

http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ub...=1000&LastLogin=

VW engineering....Last
Haha, they didn't miss it, they choose to ignore it. The thought that a car in our class can have a really high level of reliability/engineering and still be fast and cool and turn on rails is appealing, but very rarely pulled off in the real world.

[FBI14]

Heres another intresting one

http://www.lemonlaw.com/volkswagon-problems.html

[FSDET]

I'm talking about both. I've got a lot of experience with both cars. The 1.8t handles MARGINALLY better. Both cars handle about as well as a Toyota Camry. Total crap. The car can handle, but the suspension needs to be gutted- bars, coilovers, bushings- the whole 9 yards.

Either engine is great, though. Both the 1.8t and Vr6 engines are great.

If you want to seriously overhaul the suspension, the 1.8t is a great tuner car.i was talking about the new 2.0t thats coming out in 05

[geomatics_tech]

I thought mazda's customer service was shitty, check out this story.

http://www.myvwlemon.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000049.html

[anarchistchiken]

How bout an update my little negro friend?

[Jhova1012]

Drove a Gli, loved it. Smooth power, transmission was sex... Didnt get to test out the suspension but I loved the engine. I was looking at a silver mps with 13k on selling for 13,500... Then it vanished. pwned. I think im going to look at a black msp... it too is 13,500 but its has 25k miles on it. Interesting. Found a local 337 and a black 20th AE about an hour away. We shall see. Im still thinking about that GLI... it was red too. So sexy...

[anarchistchiken]

You need sleep. Your sentances are all disjointed and shit. You sound like Alex.

[Jhova1012]

Yeah well... thats what happens at 4:00 and im hungry as hell.

[FSDET]

alex?

[anarchistchiken]

Yup, alex. If you wanna know you gotta move to birmingham

[blizzard]

Firstly, I have owned a 337...

For the people who say he should just buy a regular 1.8T and modify it, I am not sure if you are aware of all the upgrades that come on the 337. Sure, you may not want them all, but it is the best combination of upgrades offered on a modern compact car.

1) Better suspension. Everyone here who says that VW suspensions suck seem to be talking from experience on the "regular" GTI whose suspension leaves much to be desired. The 337 suspension is light-years ahead of it.

2) 18" BBS RC wheels. Not the same as on the GLi. The GLi wheels are painted, the 337 wheels are shot peened finish. You will never see a finish like this IMHO. It would cost $2000+ to go from the 17" stockers to the 18" BBS' and 225/40 Michelin Pilot Sports.

3) Recaro seats. These seats are absolutely PIMP. I can only imagine how much you'd have to spend to upgrade the regular GTi to something equivalent.

4) Bigger brakes front and rear, and vented rear calipers instead of solid. The brakes on my car were awesome.

5) Body kit.

6) Single 3" round exhaust, with cut out in rear valence.

7) 6 Speed. The regular 1.8T still doesn't come with the MQ350 tranny for some stupid reason.

8) Some other small things which may or may not matter but would cost you a lot of money if you wanted to do them (red stitched leather perferated steering wheel, shift boot and hand brake, red stitched seat belts, red trimmed floor mats, aluminum dash kit, red painted calipers, Anniversary font on all the lettering...).

I can't even remember my point!!! :D

To pick which car, I can't really say, that is your decision to make, my rant is more about how good of a deal the 337 really was compared to the regular GTi.

I honestly thing the MSP is an absolutely WICKED car. I have loved them since they came out. I don't think the difference in handleing between the MSP and the 337 is as significant as the people here make it out to be. The MSP absolutely eats regular GTi's for dinner, the 337 is MUCH closer.

I honestly think the GTi would be safer. I was rear ended in a regular Golf while at a light by a Protege ES. The only damage to my car was 2 small impressions in my rear bumper from the front license plate screws on the Protege. The Protege's bumper was pushed back flush with the grill!!! The side airbags could save your life. I don't understand the point about them not being mandatory at the moment. That doesn't mean they won't be in the future. That's like going back 50 years and having the same argument about seatbelts, which weren't mandatory at that time. More airbags doesn't = safer, but I think it's a more substantial car, coupled with the airbags makes me give it the thumbs up.

Personally I think the 337 is a "cleaner" car than the MSP. It seems to be better executed. Do you know what I mean? It didn't seem cobbled together at all. The Recaros were embroidered with GTI, and the BBS wheels had VW center-caps. I also think the 337 is more sleeper, which for me is a huge appeal. I think the MSP rear wing is a bit much (not even in the same league as that aweful STi thing though :D ). Very few people know what it is, let alone know it's not "just a Golf".

In terms of rarity, only 1500 337s made it into the states, plus 250 for Canada. So wouldn't that make the 337 rarer than the MSP?

On the other side of the coin, the 337 front end is LOW. I mean LOW, and the front wheels are fairly far back, so going into parking lots, etc can be a BITCH. It really is a pain in the ass, I had to go into parking lots at an angle on a fairly regular basis, and my dad's E36 M3, or E46 330i could go straight in at speed. Can you say PITA.

Furthermore, while I owned the car I had 2 sets of coil packs replaced, the rear seat and trim pieces removed several times to try and get rid of a squeak, and the dealership screwed up my center-caps. I really don't think that VW's quality control is anywhere near up-to-snuff. Kinda dissapointing in a fairly spendy car.

I don't know if I have helped you at all. I just mainly wanted to defend the 337 from those who said it perhaps wasn't worth it over the regular GTI. It kicks the average GTI's ass!!!

The MSP handles like a go-kart, and for that it cannot be touched. Even by some considerably more expensive cars. But the engine in not EASILY modified. The GTi is 90% the car the MSP is in terms of handleing, plus is more refined, better ergonomics, better interior, and probably a better cruiser (I did 200-205 km/h for almost 40 minutes in my 337 once, and it was SMOOTH). Are you going to AutoX? I was betten by stock MSPs on a fairly regular basis. I beat my best 337 time in a friend's MSP (nine tenths of a second faster on an twenty second run in a car I didn't know cannot be snickered at). Are the roads poor in your area? Do you mind entering parking lots at an angle?

Bottom line as the cars are so close, which car do you get more jacked-up about? Get that one, you won't regret it.

I hope I helped somehow...

PS I just re-read my post. I LOVE THE MSP, please don't think I don't. These cars are different. Outright crazy handleing or Autobahn cruising with some pretty darn good handleing thrown in!!