ARP header kit from AWR fit OK?

[Dimitrios]

Anyone have fitment issues with the ARP kit from Tony at AWR (i.e. cap screws being too long, etc.)

http://www.awrracing.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=150

[rktktpaul]

Anyone have fitment issues with the ARP kit from Tony at AWR (i.e. cap screws being too long, etc.)

http://www.awrracing.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=150I've been thinking about this and it completely makes no sense to me at all. How is it possible that the studs provided are too short, yet the bolts are too long!!! How f*ed up is that?!?!

I'm looking at the kit right now and yeah, its all screwed up. I can't speak for the length of the bolts; I'll have to take your word for that. But looking at the studs, there actually is no allowance made to accomodate the thickness of the header flange. NONE!! I mean if you would tighten the nut and washer snug to the face of the engine block, there is only two threads exposed above the nut. Its way too short.

My kit also came with two different thicknesses of washers. The two studs came with very thick washers, and the eight bolts came with thin washers. I wonder if the bolts had came with the washers provided for the studs, would there be a problem with the bolts bottoming out.

This kit isn't going to work. Have you heard anything back from AWR?

[Dimitrios]

Paul,

As far as the studs and bolts being as they are, I'm just telling you my experience. I definitely didn't want to force the bolts any further into the head if they had already been bottomed out.

I'll pull one of the original bolts tonight and take a pic of that next to the ARP studs (with measurements).

The header is tight against the head and it's aligned correctly, so that's not an issue. And the ARP studs are tightened down via Allen head wrench accordingly into the head prior to installation of the header.

Looking at the kit I have from ARP (by way of Summit), the thick washers go with the studs. I wondered about the washer thickness last night while cleaning anti-seize from the fasteners for my pending return/sale to Tony.

I have not heard anything yet from Tony.

Again, let me know when you wanna meet up if you want the other two studs (from the 45 mm long stud kit I bought).

There will be a solution to all of this. I'd like to measure the head flange of an AWR or OBX header vs. the Wagner shorty we have.

D

[rktktpaul]

I don't think there's anything to be gained from measuring flange thickness from other headers. If the flange is thinner, the bolts will still bottom out without hitting the header and the studs will still be too short. If the flange is thicker, then the bolts may snug up to the header but the studs will still be too short.

I honestly don't think you're going to see a great difference in flange thickness.

Better yet, compare the flange of the stock manifold to our Wagner shorty; thats where you should see a difference. And then you can see if the AWR kit is better or worse suited for this application, especially since we know others have used the stock fasteners with no problems.

I truly think that someone at AWR either picked the wrong pieces for the kit, or ARP sent AWR the wrong items. But its really obvious looking at these items now that they won't work.

I think I'm just going to stick with the stock fasteners.

[Dimitrios]

Alright, I'll measure the stock flange to the Wagner. I agree that it shouldn't be that much of a variance header to header, etc.

As far as bolt length goes I don't think it's a significant amount of difference from what I recall. Even a shorter cap screw length (at the same length as the stock fastener) will have enough thread to fasten it properly. When I put the ARP cap screws in, there were only 3 or 4 that bottomed out (the ones in the "corners" tightened just fine).

The studs ARE too short though; I had ordered the 45 mm long ARP studs to replace the pre-cat ones, but it just so happened that the AWR provided ARP studs were too short - coincidence of the highest degree in that I happened to have those studs.

Right now, I have it installed with the 45 mm studs (replace the OEM studs) and the stock hex head cap screws (bolts). To me, the bolts are a more pressing issue - there are 4 that are difficult to tighten as it is (hard to get a socket in there, much less get a good torque value), and the 12-point heads on the ARP work wonders for "ratcheting" a wrench (I could always buy 12-point ratcheting wrenches as well of course, and just use the stock fasteners). But the ARP fastener strength and corrosion resistance alone is well worth it.

ARP has a pretty significant fastener list. I'll pursue this later tonight when the engine has cooled enough - or possibly tomorrow.

[rktktpaul]

. . . But the ARP fastener strength and corrosion resistance alone is well worth it.
Engineers! :rolleyes:




j/k :D

[rktktpaul]

The other thing to consider here about the bolts is that the bolt length may the same as stock, but is there the same amount of threads? It could be that the collar portion of the bolt is longer, and that its the transition from threads to collar hitting up against the block face, not the bottom of the bolt hitting the bottom of the hole.

[Dimitrios]

Collar? Are you talking about the shank portion w/o threads bellow the hex/12-point head?

I don't think that's the issue because the header flange should compensate for that thickness (i.e. the shank will be "in" the header flange hole). I didn't get a chance last night to check it out. But, I have been wrong in the past.....like one time before :bs:

Also, I spoke to Tony. He's willing to get the correct fasteners for us, but at a 15% restock charge on the current items. Also, *we* (er...I) have to come up with the correct length/part numbers.

The AWR header uses a 3/8" flange and he stated that the kit fits that header just fine with the kit.

Why is nothing easy.........?

[rktktpaul]

Collar? Are you talking about the shank portion w/o threads bellow the hex/12-point head?

I don't think that's the issue because the header flange should compensate for that thickness (i.e. the shank will be "in" the header flange hole). I didn't get a chance last night to check it out. But, I have been wrong in the past.....like one time before :bs: Yup, I am talking about the shank. And no it is not an issue - I checked it out on my Wagner header last night (I actually installed my front AWR mototr mount last night - one mod down, a s#*tload left to go, lol).


Also, I spoke to Tony. He's willing to get the correct fasteners for us, but at a 15% restock charge on the current items. Also, *we* (er...I) have to come up with the correct length/part numbers.

The AWR header uses a 3/8" flange and he stated that the kit fits that header just fine with the kit.

Why is nothing easy.........?Thats BS. With a 3/8" flange on his header, those two studs completely disappear within flange of his header. The bolts may work with his setup, but at the very least those two studs are really wrong.

If he were to brovide the thicker washers that came with the studs, I'm thinking the bolts should work. Studs definitely have to be replaced.

[Dimitrios]

Yup, I am talking about the shank. And no it is not an issue - I checked it out on my Wagner header last night

I figured as much; I won't be able to pull the other bolt off until tomorrow as I have to run to Wrigleyville tonight.


(I actually installed my front AWR mototr mount last night - one mod down, a s#*tload left to go, lol).

Hey, who told you could install things!?!..eh? Yah, I'm planning on doing that plus my alarm and cat back this Friday night/Saturday/Monday. That would leave suspension and short shifter/bushings/bearings/fluid/sst clutch line....sigh...


Thats BS. With a 3/8" flange on his header, those two studs completely disappear within flange of his header. The bolts may work with his setup, but at the very least those two studs are really wrong.

The studs do almost disappear. It's a good thing they have the allen head side for them to be installed/removed. As I said before, the 45 mm lengths studs are just right (I have about 2 threads showing at 20 lb-ft torque).


If he were to brovide the thicker washers that came with the studs, I'm thinking the bolts should work. Studs definitely have to be replaced.

What's a "brovide" - a type of cow or something? :D.........I agree; though the studs come with the thicker washers where-as the cap screws/bolts come with the standard washers from ARP.

The drama continues...........

[dosle]

not to be a jerk or anything but why didn't you just get the obx header?

whats the differences

[rktktpaul]

not to be a jerk or anything but why didn't you just get the obx header?

whats the differences
Ain't no jerks in MazdaTeam!! ;)

The OBX header that Ken has removes the first cat. The Wagner shorty that Dimitrios and I bought doesn't. Thats so we don't get our britches in a bind about messing with our pollution control devices when we have to go get tested.

[dosle]

Ain't no jerks in MazdaTeam!! ;)

The OBX header that Ken has removes the first cat. The Wagner shorty that Dimitrios and I bought doesn't. Thats so we don't get our britches in a bind about messing with our pollution control devices when we have to go get tested.
ah i see!

i never thought of that, i live in the county thankfully. no tests.

[Dimitrios]

Really, I don't think that the inspection is an issue; I just went with the shorty because I felt better about it. I like my Protege's ULEV status :D

Besides, differences on this engine with bolts on is about as variable as going CAI vs. SRI, etc.....4-2-1 and 4-1 and shorty and equal length will amount to about the same......elbows and a$$holes.....

[rktktpaul]

Really, I don't think that the inspection is an issue; I just went with the shorty because I felt better about it. I like my Protege's ULEV status :D

Besides, differences on this engine with bolts on is about as variable as going CAI vs. SRI, etc.....4-2-1 and 4-1 and shorty and equal length will amount to about the same......elbows and a$$holes.....
True that! But also consider the added possible gains with a new downpipe and midpipe, both with high flow cats!! :D

[Dimitrios]

You speak wisely....like a bloody architect!! :p

[Dimitrios]

Shank = threaded part of the cap screw below the hex/12-point (re: ARP) head

ARP cap screw shank length: 1 3/16" = 30.1625 mm
Stock cap screw shank length: 1 1/16" = 26.9875 mm

1/8" (3.175 mm) difference in length

I'll post pics later, but this should be relatively clear that it's not the same. A good 25mm - 27mm long shank should work better in this application.

[rktktpaul]

Thanks for all the homework. Looks like it my turn to get ahold of Tony for a refund/return.

[Dimitrios]

Thanks for all the homework. Looks like it my turn to get ahold of Tony for a refund/return.
NP. I'm forwarding some more info back to Tony.

Here's my email to and from Tony:



sarantdn@yahoo.com (http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=sarantdn@yahoo.com&YY=32087&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b) wrote:

>Tony,
>
>I think I may just go ahead and return these
>fasteners...can you provide me with some sort of an
>RMA and the address to send them to?
>
>D
>
>=====
>Failing to act is a greater failure than acting and not succeeding.
>
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Dimitrios
Sorry for the delay. We have had a major crash on the business
computer and have been trying to resurect the lost files and info seems
like for the last week now. Yes please return the parts. I am not sure
if they have been packaged incorrectly from here or if they were
incorrectly shipped from arp to us. Send them to

AWR
2865 SCOTT ST.
SUITE 107
VISTA, CA. 92081

I will inspect and decide what went wrong and refund you the full
original price.

Again sorry for the delay and the inconvenience.

Tony Woodford / AWR

[Dimitrios]

For the sake of simplicity (it's a fastener after all), here's a pic of the two side-by-side.....friends in arms almost (I'm such a romantic...).

Not that 56k friendly.....

I just sent mine back to Tony today.

[rktktpaul]

For the sake of simplicity (it's a fastener after all), here's a pic of the two side-by-side.....friends in arms almost (I'm such a romantic...).

Not that 56k friendly.....

I just sent mine back to Tony today.
Wow!! Thats a big difference!!

[Dimitrios]

Yah...and you could almost just see the part on the cap screw on the left and the slight amount of anti-seize on the threads....that's what's mostly sitting in the head...