Spool Turbo MP3 Blew Up

[TurfBurn]

Yep,

Terry's old car just blew up on me on the track. Happened yesterday (6/21). I was racing in a lapping event out at Gingerman Raceway in Michigan and in the 4th or 5th (can't remember!) heat the engine blew up.

Don't have a lot of details for you right now as to why or what, lots of metal chunks all over the place, and LOTS of white smoke and noise when she blew. Basically figure a rod went. But there was no sign of detonation (JandS was sensitive as all hell, and didnt' show anything) and had plenty of oil (checked before every 10-15 minute heat). EGT's were very low... 760 was the max. The only sign of trouble was it missed a couple of times and was running exceedingly and abnormally rich on that heat. Then out of the middle of nowhere, in a straightaway where I was taking it VERY easy and not accelerating all that much (was discussing the missing and rich readings with my passenger CONEH8R (my younger brother)) and then BANG chunks were flying, car was engulfed in white smoke, lost power steering, lost the engine, lost brakes, everything was gone and I luckily was on the straight leading to the pits, so I just pointed it that way coasted off the track (leaving lots of debris and oil behind) and parked it.

Trailered it back to wisconsin, got in at like 12:30 last night. Haven't looked it over much (it was torrential rains in Michigan) and haven't even gotten it off the trailer. So no real info there. I will be tearing it down and pulling the motor and inspecting everything. Hope to find the cause and have more info (and definitely pics) for you guys. I will be rebuilding and going bigger, better, stronger, and faster this fall/winter. Probably forged engine, ported head, newer injectors, improved wiring, nixing some accessories, 18G turbo, etc.

NOTHING is for sale at this point... and no rebuild will happen until I can recoup funds to do it. But hopefully by October/november I can get started.

No needs for the condolences. I'm not all that bummed. Boosting and racing run the risks of blowing motors, and I accept that! So oh well! But anyway... that's all I know right now, but will add more info (I have more story for you as of now... but can't type it...at work... ) as I have time!

[jersey_emt]

Damn.... 253WHP on stock internals can only hold up for so long I guess...

[TurfBurn]

The engine had actually been running absolutely fantastic until that heat when it blew up. Finally had the cold start taken care of, had throttle response ironed out. Tamed the timing so I wasn't pushing it too much, was holding boost at 7 psi (yes only 7). Etc... so no idea! I have boost creep issues with the Profec B but it read an absolute max of 12.1 after the blown motor, the microtech was cutting ignition at 14, and I had the car tuned to handle up past 14 as a "just in case" (basically just lots of extra fuel and lots of timing pulling to make it safe... not for actually running in those ranges).

[roni]

ouch. well i have plenty of extra parts around if you need anything.

[TurfBurn]

The car will still "run" in that it starts and will idle.. but you can HEAR the metal getting chunked around.

[low_psi]

Well, its probably about time that someone's motor went from just too much power instead of poor tuning. There are a couple FS-DE's here in Houston if you have trouble locating a donor motor.

[TurfBurn]

can't rule out the tune though. It could have still been my fault. But with the JandS and knowing that my wideband was reading fine, the EGT's were fine, and no signs of trouble popped up until that heat when it was rich and then blew... don't know! I drove it 300 miles out there at decent speeds on the interstate, drove it in town and back... put it through the heats etc. And had actually pulled some timing and so forth out on the drive to Michigan and so forth to make things "safer" and less aggressive... but it could still be the tune. I'll look for any sign of detonation. Terry had said that he'd get audible pinging at times when he ran it up to near 13 for the AFR and with certain timing. I was running at the leanest around 12.2 and typically more around 11.8. So don't know! But it's blown, and it'll be a fun but BIG project!

[igdrasil]

Wow....2nd spool turbo protege this month?

Mine blew last week ...just like the infamous video "Big Ass Smoke". Car was running very good and very hard @ 11psi. Raced against an STI and won all races by 3-4 car lenghts not from a hole.

Anyway, the EGT was showing cold exhaust gases, but the A/F was around 13:1 so I think it was detonation. Maybe temperature management. This was after racing the STI, I was just flooring it alone...and BOOM

In my case, I was able to see a mid crack piston on the top of cylinder 4 and piston 1 thru the block held by the air conditioner compressor...funny!

I will open my thread as soon as I have pictures and stuff and leave the threadjack.

[ddogg777]

Both of you need Oliver rods and CP pistons.

Beau at Mental Addiction Motorsports is your guy. PM him at MAMotorsports or Matthew or me because Beau can be too busy and/or out of town to answer all his PMs. We can get ahold of him.

[TurfBurn]

be crazy if we failed the exact same way though as far as modes... I just really don't think it's detonation... never got pinging of any sort (although the exhaust is loud enough) and I trust the JandS. I had it sensitive enough to pick up random noise at times, and it would detect genuine stuff other times based on it's behavior. So dunno! But the engine is blown, that's for sure!

Sorry to hear your misfortune as well!

[acidbbg]

Wow..all the sudden..engiens are blowing.

<---runs to the car..and adjusts timing cure & richens mixture.

:p

[alexlitov]

well, it was a test vehicle...

[Bigg Tim]

Sorry to hear about it, but can't wait for the results of the next motor. Talk to MPNick, he does it ALL at his shop and I have seen his 400hp msp run on the dyno and it's awesome. The thing sounds like a stocker while idling and I spoke with dinospeed (the owner of the msp) and he said it's up to 21psi and the thing is a totally different car. I'll be going with nick when mine goes. Just keep him in mind.

Do you think maybe by running so rich, it could of caused the failure? I heard the too rich can cause detonation. Although, detonation was probably ruled out by the J&S. (Mine should be here this week:D ) Maybe you threw some rod bolts. That's what happend to Micah's when he was turboed. Have you ever over rev'd by accibent? Who knows, it could of been a ton of things, since this was the frankenstien of the turboed MP3's. A sad day for the old dog of the family. Good luck and keep us posted.

[TurfBurn]

It wasn't running rich until the last 10 minutes or whatever before it blew, so dunno... I've heard rumors every direction as to things that have or haven't happened to the car before I owned it, so who knows. Don't really care honestly. I bought a modified test car, got a great deal on it, Terry has been there to answer questions and so forth, and well frankly I blew a motor which is really a simple fact of racing and modifying engines and something I fully and honestly HAPPILY accept as part of the process. Just the way it goes!

My girlfriend admits she's somewhat happy that she'll get to see more of me the next few months as this limits my racing and garage time some! But woe upon her this winter when I start the rebuild! LOL...

[Bigg Tim]

It wasn't running rich until the last 10 minutes or whatever before it blew, so dunno... I've heard rumors every direction as to things that have or haven't happened to the car before I owned it, so who knows. Don't really care honestly. I bought a modified test car, got a great deal on it, Terry has been there to answer questions and so forth, and well frankly I blew a motor which is really a simple fact of racing and modifying engines and something I fully and honestly HAPPILY accept as part of the process. Just the way it goes!

My girlfriend admits she's somewhat happy that she'll get to see more of me the next few months as this limits my racing and garage time some! But woe upon her this winter when I start the rebuild! LOL...
Booo, no need to spend time with the woman, the car comes first. J/K, cool deal, I know my woman doesn't like the money I've put into my POS but she will get over it.

The only way to see what happened is to open her up. I can gather that you weren't too bummed, but it still sucks a little. But, on the plus side, I'm sure it will be a beast next year.

[Matthew]

i agree with alex. im sure terry beat the hell outta that car. but glad to hear you are going to build it up. i hope im not in the same boat one day.

[azian6er]

how many miles on her?

stock injectors?

a friend of mine's mp3 with the spool turbo kit blew up about 2 months ago on the freeway. Same description as yours blowing up with the white smoke etc.

When we took off his head there was no piston left in cylinder #2.

We think an injector may have failed on him and then there was massive detonation which blew the piston to pieces.

How many miles are on your injectors?

-B

[03MSPRO]

hot rods always run their bets before blowing....

[Protege2K]

i agree with alex. im sure terry beat the hell outta that car. but glad to hear you are going to build it up. i hope im not in the same boat one day.ditto (nervous)

[vindication]

hey turf, why not go with the gt30 and port the intake to make it work better in our cars.

[girth]

Damn that sucks! I was hoping to see you and the car at an auto-x or 2 this summer...but I haven't been out to one yet this year. Oh well...hopefully I'll get to see it next year.

[TurfBurn]

how many miles on her?

stock injectors?

a friend of mine's mp3 with the spool turbo kit blew up about 2 months ago on the freeway. Same description as yours blowing up with the white smoke etc.

When we took off his head there was no piston left in cylinder #2.

We think an injector may have failed on him and then there was massive detonation which blew the piston to pieces.

How many miles are on your injectors?

-B
26,000 miles 550cc injectors... I think it was cylinder number 3. The hole is almost big enough for me to put my fist through.. it's a doosie! :)

[TurfBurn]

hey turf, why not go with the gt30 and port the intake to make it work better in our cars.
don't know enough about the GT30.. haven't done the research yet.. but if I do an 18G it may/should bolt right up to the flanges I have right now as I believe it uses the 16G configuration, and then I can save on the mani and the downpipe and so forth which is good.

[TurfBurn]

Booo, no need to spend time with the woman, the car comes first. J/K, cool deal, I know my woman doesn't like the money I've put into my POS but she will get over it.

The only way to see what happened is to open her up. I can gather that you weren't too bummed, but it still sucks a little. But, on the plus side, I'm sure it will be a beast next year.
I just really really wonder what the deal was with the car that no matter what I did tuning wise with it that there was NO difference between 7 and 12 psi. I mean absolutely no change in how it pulled between the different boost levels. I'd run the same timing and the same AFR's and get nothing different out of the car. My brother with a stock MSP was repeatedly pulling on me, which isn't right! And this was before and after my last tune. The last tune was partly out of necessity because my fuel pumps were starting to act up so I switched to the walbro and retuned for the different fuel flow I had then. Hopefully we'll see! I hope it isn't my fault, but if it is, I'll learn from it, share it with you all, happily admit my guilt and move on!

[dosle]

well i look forward to hearing about future progress, sucks though i was hoping to see this car in action at lake geneva dog track auto-x :(

[joka1]

thats shitty but should only lead to better power!! btw my ebc max is 21.6 so far!! but this winter while the car is in the shop i am doing the same..... building a better engine and tranny!! so i guess good luck with both our builds

[DooMer_MP3]

That sucks man. I have a spare blue MP3 with 42,000 on it, new tires, front brakes and turned rotors, freshly waxed. $11,500 w/ winter wheels :D.

Good luck on your rebuild!

Chris

[Kooldino]

If you need rebuild advice, let me know. I can rebuild an FSDE in my sleep. CP 8.5:1 pistons are what you want.

[ddogg777]

If you need rebuild advice, let me know. I can rebuild an FSDE in my sleep.
Did you replace the oil squirters in your rebuild or did you reuse them?

[TurfBurn]

Found the hole last night, or at least one of the holes. I think there is more than one, just haven't had time to really look or get it up in the air enough to get under and find them all. But the one hole is just to the passenger side of the under brace that runs front to back. It's big enough I can probably fit my fist through it. One of the pieces I have though is of painted cast iron, and this section that is blown out doesn't look at all like that, so I have to do some more looking to see if I can find where else got blown out. But the hole is pretty huge! I hope to have some pictures soon!

[TurfBurn]

Did you replace the oil squirters in your rebuild or did you reuse them?
I would like to know as well! :) This will be a rather big learning experience for me to be sure. Looking forward to it though.

[LinuxRacr]

Well, at least you have a realistic view about this shit. It took me 2 engines to get the perspective you have now. :) Go see MPNick when it comes time to rebuild. I have been running for over a year now with no oil squirters. Do I recommend it? No. The pistons didn't have enough clearnance, and chopped them off! If I ever rebuild, 8.5:1 CP pistons are what I'm going with!

I do have one theory. I wonder if one of your injectors started getting lazy, and got stuck open?

[TurfBurn]

why would an injector stuck open blow the engine? (I'm just used to only hearing detonation, running hot, or overboosting for blowing stuff up).

How much were the injectors that you are using now (the S5's.. or waiting to install... ).

[LinuxRacr]

The 2nd Gen RX-7 Turbo II S5 injectors I bought off of MP3SkaterNC for like $50. I shipped them To MPNick last week to get the extra injector setup fabbbed up, while I work on my fuel system problems, so they are not installed. Take into account that I am not speaking from experience when I say the following. Just a theory:

If your injector got lazy, wouldn't it stay open longer, or get stuck? If that were to happen, too much fuel could get dumped into the cylinder, and in an extreme case, casue hydrolock? (dunno). Again, I may be talking out my ass!

[TurfBurn]

Hmm.. yeah I can see what you were thinking. It didn't miss a lot (just once in a while sort of thing.. not like when running WAY too rich). But that'd be crazy if it did blow because it got swamped with fuel. I'll have to see if there is fuel left in there (probably evaporated by now) or something. I want to pull the plugs and take pictures tonight, but dont' know if I will have time.

[igdrasil]

That happens.
If the injector get stuck open, failure may happen because there is not enough lubrication on the cylinder walls and cause enough heat to fry the rings.

Or the worst environment, too much fuel injected, spark failure, cylinder shutdown starts to get drown in gasoline fast...locks it and the rod bends.

[TurfBurn]

I'm hoping (but doubting) that I'll be lucky enough that no metal made it into the turbo. If my turbo and head are intact and I don't need to replace themfor any reason I'll be in good shape and very happy with my situation.

[roni]

I'm hoping (but doubting) that I'll be lucky enough that no metal made it into the turbo. If my turbo and head are intact and I don't need to replace themfor any reason I'll be in good shape and very happy with my situation.

woohoo. you will be "very happy"?? LOL



Latest Mod: Engine Weight Reduction, in the form of a large chunk missing from the block.

Buy a piece of history!: Block shards from the first turbo MP3 engine for sale! :) Only a dollar plus shipping.

(Really just kidding on the pieces, but if you really want one I can probably knock off a piece for you, or give you a chunk from the engine bay!)
(attn)
i want 1 piece. how much for shipping to nj? if i do paypal, do you want me to build in an extra 3%?

[TurfBurn]

woohoo. you will be "very happy"?? LOL



(attn)
i want 1 piece. how much for shipping to nj? if i do paypal, do you want me to build in an extra 3%?

The only real down side I see in this whole situation is being out of racing for the season. Which does give me time to do some other stuff... it sucks that it will cost so much.... but it does "force" me to have to do the block which in the end is a good thing for me! :)

I'll find a good chunk for you, and pm you. The one good chunk I have right now that is of size is precious to me for now as it is the first part I found of the first motor I blew :). But there are plenty of other pieces! LOL.

[igdrasil]

Turf:

We are lucky this is not a Honda. 99% of all mazda blown motors, the head is kept intact.

Check your plugs, if you see them being hit by debrees or anything, you will most likely be in trouble with the head.

[igdrasil]

Hey....

This are my Actual Plugs when me engine blew!
Check the left one...looks green, very green!!! = DETONATION

[LinuxRacr]

Wow Ig! (eek2)

[TurfBurn]

yeah... that's definitely green! LOL... wow... nifty. I'll try to at least get pics of my plugs tonight!

Later.

Steve

[Matthew]

what causes the plugs to turn green?

[TurfBurn]

That happens.
If the injector get stuck open, failure may happen because there is not enough lubrication on the cylinder walls and cause enough heat to fry the rings.

Or the worst environment, too much fuel injected, spark failure, cylinder shutdown starts to get drown in gasoline fast...locks it and the rod bends.
I was largely having a hard time wrapping my mind around getting so much fuel in there that you'd be able to fill the clearance area above the piston with fuel to hydrolock the system. But definitely follow you on the lubrication and heat issue. I just want to tear into the motor so bad so I can find out what is up... but just don't have time!

[LinuxRacr]

what causes the plugs to turn green?

The engine killah! A.K.A. DETONATION!!! (eekdance)

[TurfBurn]

I think he means what physically causes the green color... aka metallic oxide deposits or what. (or at least that's what I want to know! :) )

[Matthew]

what turf said.

[LinuxRacr]

Not what Linux said...:'(

[TurfBurn]

It's ok Linux, we all love you anyway! Especially the cute flapjack hopping bunny :)

[mazdaspeedpower]

Congratulations on the need to rebuild...seems like that follows your optimistic philosophy on this situation. lol. Also, if you where running extra rich, could you not have dumped enough fuel into the cylinder to creat a big enough 'bang' that it was more than the rods could handle? But I'm not really an expert, this is just a rookie guessing..lol. I don't see hydralock being the issue, but you never know till the pieces are infront of you. Also, maybe the rods where and pistons have just taken so much abuse, through having high power, the occasional knock, that they where weakend, and they finally just gave out. Oh well, you'll fill us in whenever you get a chance to tear the beast apart. Good luck, and have fun

[igdrasil]

Yeah!

I may try an "invention" IF it works:

"hint"

Will try use stock piston/rod from 1.8L protege, It just need some work on the rod to fit in the crankshaft.

[TurfBurn]

I was looking at the FS-ZE engines and pondering that as my "interesting" option... Don't know the ups or downs of that engine yet to know if I want to do that or not or what benefit it would have.

[low_psi]

higher compression: 10.7:1, agressive cams, better intake manifold, possibly larger dia. TB. that's it I believe. Linux should chime in here soon.

[TurfBurn]

Hmm.. if it's that much higher compression that may not be the best option for staying with my turbo.. but if my turbo is screwed... maybe I can go NA or something.. dunno! It's an option at least.

I also found that mazda motorsports now has an intake AND an exhaust cam available for the protege. they lobes aren't ground from what I saw.... but they are there!

[LinuxRacr]

You pretty much got it. Oh, and that's agressive CAM (singular). The intake cam is the only different cam. There is the JDM Mazdaspeed exhast cam that is an upgrade. Our stock cams suck. The FS-ZE intake manifold requires some modification to work without CEL's.

[low_psi]

thanks for clearing that up!

[TurfBurn]

You pretty much got it. Oh, and that's agressive CAM (singular). The intake cam is the only different cam. There is the JDM Mazdaspeed exhast cam that is an upgrade. Our stock cams suck. The FS-ZE intake manifold requires some modification to work without CEL's.The new exhaust cam:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=810 align=center background=/wcscp/images/spacer.gif border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e8e8e8><TD vAlign=top align=middle>


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>USE FS9P-12-440A


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>PROTEGE


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1.8 & 2.0 DOHC


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1999-02


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>$



</TD><TD width=5>http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcscp/images/spacer.gif</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#e8e8e8><TD vAlign=center align=middle><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=5>http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcscp/images/spacer.gif</TD><TD>http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcscp/images/newParticon.gif</TD><TD width=25>http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcscp/images/spacer.gif</TD><TD width=20>http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wcscp/images/spacer.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>Notes:


</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left colSpan=6>USE FS9P-12-440A Higher performace cam from Japanese market MP3. Additional horsepower numbers not yet known. Use in conjuction with FS9H-12-420 intake cam which adds approximately 12hp. NOT SMOG LEGAL. This cam is modified from an intake cam, and therefore does not have a drive gear to drive a distributor. So.. This won't work on earlier 2.0 liter engines (626's) with a distributor.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But if the intake manifold's only major issue is the CEL thing that'd be just dandy with me and the Microtech. So something I'll have to keep in mind for sure then! :)

[PaulMP3]

damn.. glad your taking it so well. I have been running 12psi for a while now on stock internals.. Im gonna turn it down to 8psi or so untill i get around to building my spare block. I cant really afford the down time and inconvience at the moment.


good luck and have fun with the rebuild. :)

[MPNick]

hot rods always run their bets before blowing....
Why is this so true. It seems that by the time you get it to run the way you want the damage is already done.

Thanks again


Later.........Nick

[MPNick]

Hey....

This are my Actual Plugs when me engine blew!
Check the left one...looks green, very green!!! = DETONATION
Since when does green plugs mean detonation? It looks like coolant or maybe octane booster to me. If you have bad detonation you would have deposits on the plug tips.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

[MPNick]

can't rule out the tune though. It could have still been my fault. But with the JandS and knowing that my wideband was reading fine, the EGT's were fine, and no signs of trouble popped up until that heat when it was rich and then blew... don't know! I drove it 300 miles out there at decent speeds on the interstate, drove it in town and back... put it through the heats etc. And had actually pulled some timing and so forth out on the drive to Michigan and so forth to make things "safer" and less aggressive... but it could still be the tune. I'll look for any sign of detonation. Terry had said that he'd get audible pinging at times when he ran it up to near 13 for the AFR and with certain timing. I was running at the leanest around 12.2 and typically more around 11.8. So don't know! But it's blown, and it'll be a fun but BIG project!
While running to lean will cause detonation you also have to look at other things. Running to rich may cause pre-ingition. Also how much boost are you running? Can your intercooler flow weel with they much boost or are you just pumping alot more hot air? What about your header? At the MP dyno day we saw Danas header glowing red hot at the flange when he hit 15psi. He has way to much back pressure at that boost level. A bigger problem is most of the red glow was from the number one runner at the flange. That runner seems to be the worst with back pressure. That means that the AFR in that cylinder will not be the same as with the other cylinders as the boost goes up. So you can have the best WD in the world and it will not help if the air flow is not the same.


Thanks again


Later..........NIck

[igdrasil]

Since when does green plugs mean detonation? It looks like coolant or maybe octane booster to me. If you have bad detonation you would have deposits on the plug tips.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick
Ive always seen that in my car. And I have read a lot about plugs and stuff. I never use octane booster, I only use 93oct Shell Gasoline.
Ive seen deposits but the camera cant detail it. Ive even seen big debrees (big enough to see at sight) in the plugs but not this time.

White plugs/white exhaust valves = Lean
Yellowish/green = bad detonation = (those were the pistons that broke)

I will pull the head off today and take some pics...will see.

[pdhaudio83]

werd. when i DO get my turbo, i'll be keeping low boost until i get some bettar rods+pistons.

[Kooldino]

Did you replace the oil squirters in your rebuild or did you reuse them?
Reuse. I never saw a reason to replace.

[Kooldino]

I was looking at the FS-ZE engines and pondering that as my "interesting" option... Don't know the ups or downs of that engine yet to know if I want to do that or not or what benefit it would have.
Definitely NOT worth it. You'll pay 3x as much, and it won't net you anything. Linux dyno'd his back in the day and his dynos were comparable to a similarly moded mp3.

[Kooldino]

That means that the AFR in that cylinder will not be the same as with the other cylinders as the boost goes up.

Maybe my pre-TB injectors have something to do with that?



So you can have the best WD in the world and it will not help if the air flow is not the same.

WD?

[1FASTMP5]

Ive always seen that in my car. And I have read a lot about plugs and stuff. I never use octane booster, I only use 93oct Shell Gasoline.
Ive seen deposits but the camera cant detail it. Ive even seen big debrees (big enough to see at sight) in the plugs but not this time.

White plugs/white exhaust valves = Lean
Yellowish/green = bad detonation = (those were the pistons that broke)

I will pull the head off today and take some pics...will see.

^ my colder plugs look a little green like yours in the pic. so this means im detonating????? anyone else got feed back on this???

[TurfBurn]

While running to lean will cause detonation you also have to look at other things. Running to rich may cause pre-ingition. Also how much boost are you running? Can your intercooler flow weel with they much boost or are you just pumping alot more hot air? What about your header? At the MP dyno day we saw Danas header glowing red hot at the flange when he hit 15psi. He has way to much back pressure at that boost level. A bigger problem is most of the red glow was from the number one runner at the flange. That runner seems to be the worst with back pressure. That means that the AFR in that cylinder will not be the same as with the other cylinders as the boost goes up. So you can have the best WD in the world and it will not help if the air flow is not the same.
I was only running 7 psi of boost, my occasional boost creep maxed out at 12 psi for the highest it saw that day. I also had low overall EGT's like I said.. 740C I believe was the highest, and that was from the #1 runner which is one of my lean cylinders (plugs on 1 and 2 are typically white, while my 3 and 4 plugs are typically brown). I have the standard intercooler for spool cars, but it should be plenty enough for 7 psi and I run the Evo III 16G for what that matters or doesn't as far as boost temps and efficiencies.

It looks like cylinder number 3 is what blew up. So I have to check that out yet... but it'll be a while. But as far as I can tell other than suddenly being richer than I should have been across the board, there was no warning sign before things blew up.

[igdrasil]

^ my colder plugs look a little green like yours in the pic. so this means im detonating????? anyone else got feed back on this???
Turbo?

[Little Beavis]

My brother with a stock MSP was repeatedly pulling on me, which isn't right! And this was before and after my last tune.
And you didn't even get to race me. . .I would have whipped the crap out of you. . .probably still could even with a busted manifold! :D

(headbang)

Anyway, let the fun begin. . .we've got a big project now!

[1FASTMP5]

Turbo?
yes sir! i got a msp conversion on my p5

[MPNick]

Maybe my pre-TB injectors have something to do with that?


WD?
Can see that being the problem. Deans car made 328 with the very same extra injector setup and he was in 4th gear everytime. Not one time did he have any red glowing anything from his car. He was also running 15psi just like you and he did not the 5.0 volt cut. He now is running 21psi and still it does not look like a neon light anywhere under his hood, no glowing at all.

BTW, when is a runner glows near the head port first and then works it way down to the flange you have a lean cylinder. If the flange glows first and then starts to work its way up to the head then you have backpressure problems. Your flange got red hot and then it moved up a small amount on the runner. You had to back off because of the fire and hitting the 5.0 limit, if not you runner would have been glowing all the way up to the head. I will post the video tonight so you can see what I am talking about.


Thanks again


Later............Nick

[TurfBurn]

igradsil... I know it's a long shot, but I do wonder if the extended reach plugs had anything to do with it. Even though they are a 7 range cold plug, I wonder if that tip was far enough out to initiate pre-ignition like MPNick suggested. I guess I'd be surprised though about the pre-ignition but anything is possible. The car was cold and rich for a good 5 minutes before it blew....

[roni]

And you didn't even get to race me. . .I would have whipped the crap out of you. . .probably still could even with a busted manifold! :D

(headbang)

Anyway, let the fun begin. . .we've got a big project now!
(fight) lol

[roni]

That means that the AFR in that cylinder will not be the same as with the other cylinders as the boost goes up. So you can have the best WD in the world and it will not help if the air flow is not the same.
WD?maybe mpnick meant WB/wideband??

[pdhaudio83]

Picz!!!!!!!

[CONEH8R]

And you didn't even get to race me. . .I would have whipped the crap out of you. . .probably still could even with a busted manifold! :D

(headbang)

Anyway, let the fun begin. . .we've got a big project now!

I'll race you. :D
From the lawn chair, into the car, and then up the road. :D

Ok, I'm done now... back to the corner...

[MP3skaterNC]

you crazy protege owning brothers.

[TURBO3WAGON]

Sorry to hear that - bad trip.

Been there, done that. Start over with forged internals!

[TurfBurn]

I'll race you. :D
From the lawn chair, into the car, and then up the road. :D

Ok, I'm done now... back to the corner...
Sheeit... you never even get off your ass in the first place :D So I think it'd be a short race. You'd look at the distance and be like "that's too far, I'll just watch a movie" and that'd be the end of it! (drive)

But anyway..

Yeah definitely doing the forged route. Vendors line up! LOL... it'll take until at earliest December... at lastest March to get the money all together and get rolling on everything. Largely considering buying a build block from the likes of MPI, MAMotorsports, or SPD racing at this point, maybe others over time. Lots of research and vendor communication to go yet. And hell it's a good 6-10 months out anyway. Lots of saving to do!

[TurfBurn]

Picz!!!!!!!
tonight...

I'm going to hope that I'll have the biggest block hole yet :) LOL.

gotta have some kinda goal in life!

[Little Beavis]

I'll race you. :D
From the lawn chair, into the car, and then up the road. :D

Ok, I'm done now... back to the corner...(help)
Oh look, it is the other white meat! He posts, he lives. . .

Hey when we put the GT-2 on both cars side by side. . .I beat yours up. End of story. . .
(rockon)

Now if we tried it today. . .who knows.

I will give you this though. . .your car runs smoother and is certainly less problematic. Can't wait to live vicariously through you two as I now have little time or money to make mine the beast it deserves to be. Who's idea was it to have a kid! Wait that was mine. . .hey little S-dogg, want to go play with your uncles? Daddy has some car work to do!

Edited for the following great post (damn that's true and funny):


Sheeit... you never even get off your ass in the first place :D So I think it'd be a short race. You'd look at the distance and be like "that's too far, I'll just watch a movie" and that'd be the end of it! (drive)

[CONEH8R]

(help)
Oh look, it is the other white meat! He posts, he lives. . .

Hey when we put the GT-2 on both cars side by side. . .I beat yours up. End of story. . .
(rockon)

Now if we tried it today. . .who knows.

I will give you this though. . .your car runs smoother and is certainly less problematic. Can't wait to live vicariously through you two as I now have little time or money to make mine the beast it deserves to be. Who's idea was it to have a kid! Wait that was mine. . .hey little S-dogg, want to go play with your uncles? Daddy has some car work to do!

Edited for the following great post (damn that's true and funny):

Ah, yes the other white meat...

yeah, no problems yet. And 35mpg when I drove pure highway at 80mph. I "guess" I can deal with that. Slighty better than the V8.

Too bad I got a bogus hood... j/k

I need more boost... but safely.. and when i'm not under warranty...

[TurfBurn]

Let me tell you. The MP3 has nothing for cornering on the Blazer! :) And the 20 mpg at best on the highway is awesome too I might add! LOL :)

[CONEH8R]

(help)
Oh look, it is the other white meat! He posts, he lives. . .

Hey when we put the GT-2 on both cars side by side. . .I beat yours up. End of story. . .
(rockon)


oh-ok, pick on the little brother time... i see what's going on here...

who's got the running turbo'd mazda right now? what? silence? that's what i thought.... :cool:

[TurfBurn]

LOL.. this is probably the first time all 3 of us have been in the same thread. Obviously that was a good thing! :D Anyway...

So my engine blew up..... yeah... and I'll have pictures of at least some of it tonight!

[igdrasil]

I dont know but the plugs may have contributed to the cause...because my EGT was cool all the time, but the A/F was on the 13:1 side.

I dont know yet. will take pics tonight also. Im sure I saw 1 piston OUT of the rod...

[RAAZ227]

Has anyone told Terry??? Sorry to hear about that. 253whp..stock internals...that'll do it.



11psi. Raced against an STI and won all races by 3-4 car lenghts not from the hole
:confused: 3 or 4 car lengths on an STi ??????? Huh?

[TurfBurn]

Nah Terry doesn't know yet... I'll give him a call soon or something.... he'll be bummed I'm sure.

I won't have my head off for a while yet. But I do hope to take it off and get more pics for you guys in the next few weeks.

[igdrasil]

Has anyone told Terry??? Sorry to hear about that. 253whp..stock internals...that'll do it.



:confused: 3 or 4 car lengths on an STi ??????? Huh?
yeah...no faith huh?

STIs pull more like 234WHP...Our cars are around that WHP with ~11psi

[TurfBurn]

And mine was only doing like 150 whp at 12.1 AFR at 11 psi :(

[RAAZ227]

yeah...no faith huh?

STIs pull more like 234WHP...Our cars are around that WHP with ~11psi
It's not that I don't have faith in you. Congrats on it. A stock STi puts down 254 awhp. Just 3 or 4 car lenths made me question that. That's all.

[igdrasil]

And mine was only doing like 150 whp at 12.1 AFR at 11 psi :(
Thats insane...

Did you do a leak test?

[roni]

And mine was only doing like 150 whp at 12.1 AFR at 11 psi :(
huh (uhm) (dunno)

something's not right

[igdrasil]

It's not that I don't have faith in you. Congrats on it. A stock STi puts down 254 awhp. Just 3 or 4 car lenths made me question that. That's all.
yeah well...I blew the engine so...I loose anyway.

And I know he was racing because he waited the tow-truck with me. (upyours)

[TurfBurn]

huh (uhm) (dunno)

something's not rightExactly, hence my thought that maybe something was wrong with the car before it blew up. But it didn't matter what psi I ran, or what timing or what fuel really. I mean I could get it to run a little smoother or pull a little harder between running like pig rich and 12....

For example... If I was in 3rd gear and held it to the floor and let it go from 3,000 rpm's to 6,000 rpm's. I would have two different thigns happen. In one case the boost would hold at 8 psi and the AFR would be about 12 and the car would pull even and strong all the way through until the next shift. In other cases, I would get boost creap and the last 1,000 rpm's the boost would creep up to around 14 from. Even though it was creeping from 8-14 I would get no difference in actual pull from the engine. It didn't accelerate harder, it didn't sound different, AFR's would change a little with my tune, but it wouldn't pull anymore.

Pretty much symptomatic of the car that I couldn't get past was that whether i ran 5 psi or anything more the car wouldn't get faster. In some cases it woudl actually start to become SLOWER when the boost went up. So it was very weird.

and i had 3 different pieces registering my boost levels on two different vaccuum lines, boost gauge and boost controller on one line, and microtech on another line. They all agreed as to what boost they were seeing. So it wasn't a vacuum issue either. they were tapped from different locations.

[Little Beavis]

oh-ok, pick on the little brother time... i see what's going on here...

who's got the running turbo'd mazda right now? what? silence? that's what i thought.... :cool:
:D

Nothing but love for you man. . .

And technically, mine still runs. . .it just leaks a little exhaust. . .even then I still say it is faster!

(stooges) Three brothers in one thread is too much. I must leave now.

[PaulMP3]

yeah...no faith huh?

STIs pull more like 234WHP...Our cars are around that WHP with ~11psi l
@8psi my friends stock sti barley pulled on me... from a roll(evil)

[roni]

Exactly, hence my thought that maybe something was wrong with the car before it blew up. But it didn't matter what psi I ran, or what timing or what fuel really. I mean I could get it to run a little smoother or pull a little harder between running like pig rich and 12....

For example... If I was in 3rd gear and held it to the floor and let it go from 3,000 rpm's to 6,000 rpm's. I would have two different thigns happen. In one case the boost would hold at 8 psi and the AFR would be about 12 and the car would pull even and strong all the way through until the next shift. In other cases, I would get boost creap and the last 1,000 rpm's the boost would creep up to around 14 from. Even though it was creeping from 8-14 I would get no difference in actual pull from the engine. It didn't accelerate harder, it didn't sound different, AFR's would change a little with my tune, but it wouldn't pull anymore.

Pretty much symptomatic of the car that I couldn't get past was that whether i ran 5 psi or anything more the car wouldn't get faster. In some cases it woudl actually start to become SLOWER when the boost went up. So it was very weird.

and i had 3 different pieces registering my boost levels on two different vaccuum lines, boost gauge and boost controller on one line, and microtech on another line. They all agreed as to what boost they were seeing. So it wasn't a vacuum issue either. they were tapped from different locations.Have you tried a manual boost controller? Even with my wacky spool manifold I eliminated the really disturbing boost creep with a manual boost controller.

Back when I had the Greddy Profec E-01 for boost control, and the Spool manifold, I had spikes up to the mid 15s, and up to 18 if I remember correctly..

What was the AFR change on those spikes? Was it going lean/rich?

[TurfBurn]

Have you tried a manual boost controller? Even with my wacky spool manifold I eliminated the really disturbing boost creep with a manual boost controller.

Back when I had the Greddy Profec E-01 for boost control, and the Spool manifold, I had spikes up to the mid 15s, and up to 18 if I remember correctly..

What was the AFR change on those spikes? Was it going lean/rich?
No I tuned it so it would hold a constant 12.1 AFR through the creep. I was able to initially estimate the curve based off what I had tuned in already and then watched it during some creep to make sure that it held ok AFR's. I never had the problem until I put a Profec B-Spec II on the car. Before it would spike once in a while, but it wouldn't boost creep the way it did/does now. Seems to be the same problem a number of people have had with the Spec II I guess from what Beavis has said to me, but I don't know for sure.

The Microtech would kill the ignition at 14 psi so that you just had extra fuel and no spark if you got that high. But the highest it got on the day of the race and the day before was 12.1 psi which wasn't bad at all.. other than being 4 psi over my 8 psi set point.

[roni]

How do you have the injectors controlled, and at what duty cycle are they running?

[TurfBurn]

the injectors were controlled via the microtech standalone firing sequential for each cylinder. The highest value they were open for was around 9.8ms but I believe if it crept near 14 that it would get to nearly 11 ms which terry told me that i needed to stay at 10.2 or less. But I never saw any leaning out and it didn't make it to 14 psi at all that day, so I'm not concerned that it went over the 10.2 Terry recommended.

Just pulled the plugs out... and have pictures for you guys of the holes.. they are PLENTY big :). But anyway... all the cylinders were flooded with fuel. every plug was soaking wet to the point of having a fluid bridge between the electrode and the tip.

Turns out that cylinder number 4 (the furthest to the right) is what blew. the rod definitely snapped. The bad news is that my spark plug got a love tap. Not enough to really damage it but it was hit by the piston, so that makes me wonder if the valves got nailed as well or if the head took any major damage. Won't know until I pull it off I guess....

[TurfBurn]

Here are pics of the damaged spark plugs and the spark plugs as a group.

The damaged one no long has a gap.. the electrode is against the point. and you can see the metal damage on the tip there.

[TurfBurn]

These first pics are the hole that got knocked out of the bearing support plate... and you'll see what is left of the rod in the hole....

[TurfBurn]

And these last pics are of the whole in the block itself that was right behind the starter. You can also see what I'm guessing is a coolant passage or clearance hole at the top edge of the fracture.

[Bigg Tim]

These first pics are the hole that got knocked out of the bearing support plate... and you'll see what is left of the rod in the hole....
OUCH!!! So aybe it looks like you were too rich, if there was that much fuel in there. If you had it tuned for 8PSI and it went up to 11 or 14, then you definatly were bound to blow. How can the motor be tuned for 8 and still run on 14 with only enough fuel and timing for 8? I would think that's why you felt no power difference, but I could be wrong.

So it's finally nice to hear from the little one on here. CONEH8R, you have to step up and not take that shit from them man! But I would have to agree with Beavis, the MP3 will own ya!


yeah...no faith huh?

STIs pull more like 234WHP...Our cars are around that WHP with ~11psi
I got almost 230WHP at 8psi.(headbang)

[TurfBurn]

OUCH!!! So aybe it looks like you were too rich, if there was that much fuel in there. If you had it tuned for 8PSI and it went up to 11 or 14, then you definatly were bound to blow. How can the motor be tuned for 8 and still run on 14 with only enough fuel and timing for 8? I would think that's why you felt no power difference, but I could be wrong.

You misunderstood me a little :). I had the car set to run 8 on the controller and so forth. But I tuned fuel and timing maps for up to 14/15 psi. So although it is supposed to run at 8 psi, it could creep above that and the appropriate fuel would be dumped in to keep it within the range I wanted it to be. I just simply didn't run it up there normally. Make more sense now? I would have a nice even 12.1 ish AFR from about 1 psi all the way up to 14 psi. But there was no difference in pull of the car from 4-12 psi at all.

[Bigg Tim]

You misunderstood me a little :). I had the car set to run 8 on the controller and so forth. But I tuned fuel and timing maps for up to 14/15 psi. So although it is supposed to run at 8 psi, it could creep above that and the appropriate fuel would be dumped in to keep it within the range I wanted it to be. I just simply didn't run it up there normally. Make more sense now? I would have a nice even 12.1 ish AFR from about 1 psi all the way up to 14 psi. But there was no difference in pull of the car from 4-12 psi at all.
OIC!!! As I was then! Thanks for the clerification, sorry I misunderstood. So how will you determine the root cause of the failure?

[MPNick]

Here are pics of the damaged spark plugs and the spark plugs as a group.

The damaged one no long has a gap.. the electrode is against the point. and you can see the metal damage on the tip there.
Why are you running such a cold heat range plug? What was your gap?


Thanks again


Later.......Nick

[igdrasil]

check my blown motor

http://www2.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70821

[TurfBurn]

Why are you running such a cold heat range plug? What was your gap?


Thanks again


Later.......Nick
It was a 7 heat range plug because it was extended reach and from the discussion in that thread you would need to run one range colder than with a standard plug due to the proximity in the head. So that was why I was running that.

My gap was .28 I believe. On that one plug it is now .000 :)

[MPNick]

It was a 7 heat range plug because it was extended reach and from the discussion in that thread you would need to run one range colder than with a standard plug due to the proximity in the head. So that was why I was running that.

My gap was .28 I believe. On that one plug it is now .000 :)
Turbo engines and extended reach scare the s-it out of me. The stock plug is a 5 on your car I think. The MSP came with 6s from Mazda. Thats what were are running right now and we use a .025 gap. They are working well @21psi. Did not dyno yet but I would guess it will be around the 360whp range.

Not trying to sound all knowing about things but until I see a problem with some part I would not make alot of changes. One thing we may be seeing is the stock OEM coils are not working well at higher boost levels. If we needed to go to a colder plug[so far we do not] I think the spark would be even more of a problem. Running a colder plug then you need will not help when tuning or with power.


Thanks again


Later............Nick

[CONEH8R]

So it's finally nice to hear from the little one on here. CONEH8R, you have to step up and not take that shit from them man! But I would have to agree with Beavis, the MP3 will own ya!


Yeah, he's faster, I just like giving him shit since mine runs very well, but it should it's stock. :D

[TurfBurn]

Turbo engines and extended reach scare the s-it out of me. The stock plug is a 5 on your car I think. The MSP came with 6s from Mazda. Thats what were are running right now and we use a .025 gap. They are working well @21psi. Did not dyno yet but I would guess it will be around the 360whp range.

Not trying to sound all knowing about things but until I see a problem with some part I would not make alot of changes. One thing we may be seeing is the stock OEM coils are not working well at higher boost levels. If we needed to go to a colder plug[so far we do not] I think the spark would be even more of a problem. Running a colder plug then you need will not help when tuning or with power.

I'd trust your recommendations and ideas far before I trust my own... so no worries as to my accepting your advice or recommendations. I do know that the extended reach plug made the car idle and run a lot better than it did before I switched. I was pretty happy with them. I likely won't run them though with the rebuilt engine. I was running the colder plug out of safety concern to make sure I didn't get a hot spot and induce pre-ignition that way off the plug.

Terry didn't seem to have had any problems at 16 psi with coils or so forth... how is Dana's car doing with the higher boost and stock coils? I do wonder where the limit is going to be on that and when we have to be concerned. At that point I'll likely switch microtech's and go to Bosch coils.

I'll just need you to start coming up with a good CP piston block for me :).

[igdrasil]

Im in need on some forged goods....and a new engine.

[ddogg777]

Im in need on some forged goods....and a new engine.
Call Beau and tell him you want a set of Oliver rods and CP pistons, $1200 I believe.

[Kooldino]

A bigger problem is most of the red glow was from the number one runner at the flange. That runner seems to be the worst with back pressure. That means that the AFR in that cylinder will not be the same as with the other cylinders as the boost goes up.

BTW, this backs up what I've been saying for years...cylinder #1 is probably the leanest, and that's why I put the EGT probe there.

[Kooldino]

Can see that being the problem. Deans car made 328 with the very same extra injector setup and he was in 4th gear everytime. Not one time did he have any red glowing anything from his car. He was also running 15psi just like you and he did not the 5.0 volt cut. He now is running 21psi and still it does not look like a neon light anywhere under his hood, no glowing at all.

Well for starters, he has a thick, cast mani. I have a thin, stainless mani. So we're not exactly comparing apples to apples here. Furthermore, nothing started glowing until i hit my 5v limit on the MAF. The MAF limit and the glowing manifold are probably related to an extent.



BTW, when is a runner glows near the head port first and then works it way down to the flange you have a lean cylinder. If the flange glows first and then starts to work its way up to the head then you have backpressure problems. Your flange got red hot and then it moved up a small amount on the runner. You had to back off because of the fire and hitting the 5.0 limit, if not you runner would have been glowing all the way up to the head. I will post the video tonight so you can see what I am talking about.

Yeah, post the vid, I wanna see it.

[Kooldino]

Ok, I'm done now... back to the corner...
Back to th corner? What is Jeremy pimping you guys out?






(If so, I want a date)

[CONEH8R]

Back to th corner? What is Jeremy pimping you guys out?



(If so, I want a date)

LOL, not that I'm aware of. I just meant, back to the sidelines. I was in the car when it said "bye" on the track (since I was racing my MSP there), otherwise I don't know a F'n thing about turbos.

[TurfBurn]

Back to th corner? What is Jeremy pimping you guys out?






(If so, I want a date)

at least you know we drive nice cars :)

[TurfBurn]

BTW, this backs up what I've been saying for years...cylinder #1 is probably the leanest, and that's why I put the EGT probe there.
Now that I have my cylinder numbering straight in my head... I also have my EGT in the #1 runner, and it is also one of my leanest cylinders. I definitely see more heat on the plugs there than on any of the others. 1 and two run lean with 1 leaner than 2 and then 3 and 4 run a considerable sight richer based on my plug coloration.

[Kooldino]

Now that I have my cylinder numbering straight in my head... I also have my EGT in the #1 runner, and it is also one of my leanest cylinders. I definitely see more heat on the plugs there than on any of the others. 1 and two run lean with 1 leaner than 2 and then 3 and 4 run a considerable sight richer based on my plug coloration.
Typical of an inline 4, from what I hear.

[TurfBurn]

OUCH!!! So aybe it looks like you were too rich, if there was that much fuel in there.
You know... It crosses my mind now that Terry mentioned the FPR I have is a POS (putting in an AEM adjustable with the rebuild) and I half wonder if it failed and went terribly rich. I dont' know if it could have gone rich enough to blow the engine.

It'll be great when I get stuff apart and I can get rid of a good number of avenues of speculation as to what happened in there.

[Kooldino]

The stock FPR was a POS??? How?

[MPNick]

Typical of an inline 4, from what I hear.
I have never seen this to be the case. I have seen more cylinder were on the number one cylinder. This is do to the water pump hitting the first cylinder with cooler water.

Thanks again

Later...............Nick

[TurfBurn]

The stock FPR was a POS??? How?
Not the stock one.. I have an aeromotive brand one on the fuel system.. that is what he said was a POS.

[ddogg777]

I have never seen this to be the case. I have seen more cylinder were on the number one cylinder. This is do to the water pump hitting the first cylinder with cooler water.

Thanks again

Later...............Nick
Yeah, check out the water passageways through the headgasket and you can see how the flow is controlled.

[speedhawaii]

sore!

[pdhaudio83]

glad to see that gt-2 i sold you is helping out. heh- getting your moneys worth- three mazdas+3 brothers+ gt2=bruised egos

[spoolinmp3]

(sad1) (sad1)(sad1) My my my...........a sad day(notcool)
Sorry I could not get on here earlier but I have been traveling, busy etc.
I was contacted by Turf, and he seemed pretty optimistic about it.
btw......sorry I did not call you back on friday, I was super friggin busy, so I decided to get on here.

It seems very strange, and I did not have a chance to read the entire thread but did you have a wideband in the car? if so what was the a/f? Your egt's did seem a bit high if I remember correctly. Where they supposed to be at 720c?
Forgive me since I do not rememeber the exact parameters.

Also did you datalog before it blew by anychance? That would be nice to have.
On the microtech did you have the overboost protection feature on that cuts ignition?
I think I had it set at 12psi then it would cut it up. It seems you had all your ducks in a row. Possibly the engine just saw enough and decided to take a shit. It saw some pretty high psi for a stock motor.

I hope you get it back on the road soon.........I sure do miss it. Im glad it has a good owner(flash)

About the ignition I never had any issues with it on high boost and about the mani flow, it never glowed on the dyno.......I dont think that was related to the failure but you never know.

I know that the fpr was a POS and possinbly one of the injectors took a dump. So many variables really. I hope you find out what really hapened.

[spoolinmp3]

Yeah thats crazy that 3 brothers have turbo mazda's
Damn turf was tellin me about that. Thats hardcore(headbang)

[Kooldino]

I have never seen this to be the case. I have seen more cylinder were on the number one cylinder. This is do to the water pump hitting the first cylinder with cooler water.

Right, that's what we said...cyl #1.

[TurfBurn]

It seems very strange, and I did not have a chance to read the entire thread but did you have a wideband in the car? if so what was the a/f?

Yep.... and the last few minutes before the car blew it was reading 10.2 or below pretty much everywhere. Normally under boost it was around 11.8 to a max of 12.2 for the AFR.

720C is rather low. Cruising on the highway I'd see about 710-730. If I ran a gear pretty long and hard (going to 100+ mph etc from lower speeds) I'd see up to around 810C.




Also did you datalog before it blew by anychance? That would be nice to have.
On the microtech did you have the overboost protection feature on that cuts ignition?
:( No datalog. But the microtech had overboost protection enabled and cutting ignition once boost hit 14 psi... Didn't hit it at all that day at the track though... I"ve hit it a few times so I definitely know what it feels like.




I think I had it set at 12psi then it would cut it up. It seems you had all your ducks in a row. Possibly the engine just saw enough and decided to take a shit. It saw some pretty high psi for a stock motor.

Yep... but that's a tuner car! It's the way it should be!

[LinuxRacr]

Back to th corner? What is Jeremy pimping you guys out?






(If so, I want a date)(rlaugh)

BTW, good to see you on here again Terry(Spoolinmp3).

[igdrasil]

hmmm...

I need to record this in my mind: we need forged goodies inside...not just to raise the boost, but....to save the block...

...makes me think If I had forged rods inside, they wouldnt bend like that and at least had my block intact. DAMN!

I will buy another motor, keep it @ 7psi until forged stuff comes.

Whats your plan Turf?

[TurfBurn]

My plans:

Car won't be back up until next year... but I'm getting a new block... putting forged internals into it. PandPing the head, hopefully/maybe getting a new set of cams from mazda motorsports (they have a new japanese intake and exhaust cams), and rebuilding from there pretty much. HOPING my turbo didn't take in metal, but won't know for a bit... and that will determine if I do more... otherwise that should basically be it... new block, head, and internals. I'm also going to polish my intake manifold myself, and some other things...

[Little Beavis]

cams are a waste of money

[TurfBurn]

cams are a waste of moneyI figured at 160 a piece and with the engine apart it would be somewhat worthwhile.

Both the exhaust and intake are not worthwhile on a turbo application? I would have thought that increasing duration or what not would be of use. Supposedly the one cam is worth nearly 12 hp in the NA application... so I figured it would at least have some positives for the turbo app...

Thoughts/explanation???

(I certainly have no issue with cutting 320 bucks off the rebuild cost if it is truly not worth the while!)

[Little Beavis]

I'd like to see one bit of proof that they help. Just being skeptic. I'm not saying they might not gain you a little, but if you want 12 hp, run another psi of boost. I would love to see any before and after dyno info though. Stick with stock, as any of the "big" hp Protege's out right now have all done so stock, so why bother, save the cash.

[spoolinmp3]

I'd like to see one bit of proof that they help. Just being skeptic. I'm not saying they might not gain you a little, but if you want 12 hp, run another psi of boost. I would love to see any before and after dyno info though. Stick with stock, as any of the "big" hp Protege's out right now have all done so stock, so why bother, save the cash.Cam profiles on the all motor cams are of no help to turbo app. You need profiles that are turbo specific. If you want custom grind some, that should be good for 15-20whp

[TurfBurn]

I'd like to see one bit of proof that they help. Just being skeptic. I'm not saying they might not gain you a little, but if you want 12 hp, run another psi of boost. I would love to see any before and after dyno info though. Stick with stock, as any of the "big" hp Protege's out right now have all done so stock, so why bother, save the cash.Ahh the beauty of boost... want more hp... turn up the pressure.. (well almost that simple!).

Dana has one of the cams, I don't know if he had any thoughts on it... but yeah there isn't much data or anything on the japanese sport 20 cams that has been shown in dyno sheets has there?

I had just been under the impression that cams were the next in line behind a header for good gains... at least in the NA world. (which obviously based on the other posts doesn't translate to the darkside well.. unless specifically made for the darkside.)

[igdrasil]

I wouldnt do them. I would rather get adjustable cam gears, this way you can move the powerband and adjust torque.

You can get better HP with higher lift cams and with that you *may* need custom valve springs depending on the lift and rpms.

Longer duration cams may cause overlap which I think is bad for turbo.

[TurfBurn]

well I believe that answers that..

(goes to wish list of rebuild... crosses off cams from research and want list... moves on)....

[CONEH8R]

I think you should just use octane booster...






Soooooooooo kidding...

[TurfBurn]

I think you should just use octane booster...






Soooooooooo kidding...
I've also heard GREAT things about those awesome Resistor chip mods from EBay. I mean any product you can get for 99 cents - 20 bucks and can get you 25-30whp is the shit!

[dosle]

/threadjacks

yo coneh8r, thanks for lettin me ride along on your autox run. that was a crazy course, let me know if you hear of a track course coming up like the michigan one, that sounded awesome.

/unthreadjacks

[Kooldino]

Well, lets put it this way: @ 13psi pre-intake cam, all was well. @ 13psi POST intake cam, I'd hit the MAF limit, and my AFRs were much leaner across the board.

[CONEH8R]

/threadjacks

yo coneh8r, thanks for lettin me ride along on your autox run. that was a crazy course, let me know if you hear of a track course coming up like the michigan one, that sounded awesome.

/unthreadjacks

No problem, hope you had fun. Chris didn't beat me, but he was on my tail, I drove like crap all day anyways. Oh well... I've raced better courses, but it was still a decent time.

[CONEH8R]

I've also heard GREAT things about those awesome Resistor chip mods from EBay. I mean any product you can get for 99 cents - 20 bucks and can get you 25-30whp is the shit!


(boom05) oh... guess i should get a refund for that...

[TurfBurn]

Well, lets put it this way: @ 13psi pre-intake cam, all was well. @ 13psi POST intake cam, I'd hit the MAF limit, and my AFRs were much leaner across the board.
And that was the only change you made at that time? If that's the case then I guess that shows a fair amount more air making it in which is a good thing... but I don't know enough about cams to know if there would be other things that could be up, or if you could get overlap that would be detrimental based on what igradsil was saying.

[Kooldino]

Well, I did a few things...but the intake cam and slight port of the intake mani were the only intake changes at the time.

[igdrasil]

I dont know the specs....it it has a bit of overlap on the timing...a cam gear will be beneficial along with it...

I mean...if its longer duration...you can take the intake and open it sooner (advance) it will close sooner but as being longer duration, it will close near as stock closing so overlap will not exist.

This is just me making some thoughts....

[MPNick]

I dont know the specs....it it has a bit of overlap on the timing...a cam gear will be beneficial along with it...

I mean...if its longer duration...you can take the intake and open it sooner (advance) it will close sooner but as being longer duration, it will close near as stock closing so overlap will not exist.

This is just me making some thoughts....
More valve lift on the intake and a very little more duration on the exhaust valve would help, maybe. I would just save all the money that would be spent for camshafts and get the best intercooler I can. I do not care what kind of camshafts you get. You will always make more power with boost then anything.

The intake camshaft did not help Dana much. His lowend torque is not that great. Boost Boost and more boost. Thats the best way to build torque and hp.

Thanks again


Later...........Nick

[Kooldino]

Yeah, not that great. I only had 270 or so ft/lbs at the wheels. That was with one hour of tuning.

[Kooldino]

My mistake, 260 something. This pull was in 4th gear. 4th gear pulls tend to show more torque on the dyno we were on.

I hadn't gotten a chance to tune the car since the install of the intake cam, but for an hour before the dyno.

[TurfBurn]

did you figure out what that nasty dip in the power around 5.5K was?

[RAAZ227]

My mistake, 260 something. This pull was in 4th gear. 4th gear pulls tend to show more torque on the dyno we were on.

I hadn't gotten a chance to tune the car since the install of the intake cam, but for an hour before the dyno.

How come the power curve is so choppy?? It seems it staggers up and down a lot after 5k.

[redrims]

what turf said.
http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm

[igdrasil]

How come the power curve is so choppy?? It seems it staggers up and down a lot after 5k.
looks like a lean spot to me...

[TurfBurn]

"in extreme circumstances the electrode material will have oxidised to the point of turning green"

but they are referring to the plugs sitting for a long time... so I'm trying to figure out what would have oxidized and how in igdrasil's case to cause so much without any other signs of an issue...

[Kooldino]

did you figure out what that nasty dip in the power around 5.5K was?
LOL, yeah, i knew what it was before I even got to the dyno. MAF voltage limit.

[Kooldino]

How come the power curve is so choppy?? It seems it staggers up and down a lot after 5k.
Yes yes, MAF limit. Go check one of my threads about it.

I was also tuning it on the dyno, and smoothed it out a lot. See the one in my sig if you want to see smooth. I still have the MAF issues afer 5K tho.

[igdrasil]

Hey...careful with maf limit...it will lean out the car...and may cause detonation and shit...
It had happened to me before...

[ne3ek]

god damn, so 250whp is seriously pushing it for the FS motor? Us BP guys are able to do 350-400whp if tuned right.

Does anybody have an overhead shot of the FS block without the head? They are aluminum right? open deck i assume? Just curious, awesome you took the hit so good too man. (I was in no way trying to bash you either)

[TurfBurn]

I don't believe 250 is pushing it for the cars... at least not with different pistons and rods... the block, crank, and head gasket and so forth are all fine... no problems there.... the MAF is a restriction of sorts in that it maxes out with the air being pushed (as is evidenced by Kooldino).. but that's it there... Those are the things I've heard and read... probably more detail available from someone else..

the block is cast iron... not aluminum.

[ne3ek]

ya I clearly don't know crap about the FS motor lol. So it's the internals that are weak, the block should be good, nice closed deck iron block I'm sure. I suppose you guys have cast internals then ?

[TurfBurn]

For the record I don't know that much either (but am learning quickly with rebuilding an engine over the next few months etc)... I was just regurgitating information from other threads. Not "knowledge" of any sort that I have... just stuff I've read and have to assume is true. I do know for sure first hand that the block is cast. And I've seen it repeated enough times to know that we have a metal head gasket and cast internals. I also know we have an aluminum head... and supposedly a forged crank. but that's about all I "know." That and there are now several cars at or above 250 hp.

[igdrasil]

ya I clearly don't know crap about the FS motor lol. So it's the internals that are weak, the block should be good, nice closed deck iron block I'm sure. I suppose you guys have cast internals then ?http://www2.msprotege.com/members/igdrasil/setup/new_piston_set.jpg

http://www2.msprotege.com/members/igdrasil/proyect/block_top.jpg

[ne3ek]

thanks bro, that clears up a lot.

[LinuxRacr]

http://www.protegemp3.com/vbb225/galleryuser.php?s=&userid=52&gallery=Rebuild/

[LinuxRacr]

Stock Rod (top) vs. Pauter Rod (bottom):

http://www.protegemp3.com/members/LinuxRacr/Rebuild/pauter_vs_stock1.jpg

[ne3ek]

oh wow, major difference, bad ass.

[acidbbg]

Nice pick..

[MPNick]

I don't believe 250 is pushing it for the cars... at least not with different pistons and rods... the block, crank, and head gasket and so forth are all fine... no problems there.... the MAF is a restriction of sorts in that it maxes out with the air being pushed (as is evidenced by Kooldino).. but that's it there... Those are the things I've heard and read... probably more detail available from someone else..

the block is cast iron... not aluminum.
Thats why we run a bigger MAF on Deans car.


Thanks again


Later............Nick

[MPNick]

My mistake, 260 something. This pull was in 4th gear. 4th gear pulls tend to show more torque on the dyno we were on.

I hadn't gotten a chance to tune the car since the install of the intake cam, but for an hour before the dyno.
Still I do not see where the camshaft is helping. Here is a 15psi pull from Deans with the mostly stock MSP exhaust system. We did make a downpipe and removed the front cat. @4,000 rpms Dean was up 20 lbs ft at the same 15psi.

Thanks again

Later........Nick

[TurfBurn]

Still I do not see where the camshaft is helping. Here is a 15psi pull from Deans with the mostly stock MSP exhaust system. We did make a downpipe and removed the front cat. @4,000 rpms Dean was up 20 lbs ft at the same 15psi.

Thanks again

Later........NickI see that you still have that crazy drop at around 5.5K. Is that the MAF issue there... aka before you guys switched Dean's to a bigger MAF or is it something else? I see it isn't in the other curve... so I'm wondering what the change was.

[MPNick]

I see that you still have that crazy drop at around 5.5K. Is that the MAF issue there... aka before you guys switched Dean's to a bigger MAF or is it something else? I see it isn't in the other curve... so I'm wondering what the change was.
No thats the way the torque curve builds and then falls off. It may be a little faster then it should be, maybe. The wastegate was not holding good at 15psi. With the new wastegate we will see how it looks when we go back to the dyno.


Thanks again


Later..............Nick

[TurfBurn]

I was referring to the lower of the two curves, the upper one looks good... is the lower one Dana's? As it is rather similar... just confused as to what i'm seeing there.

[Kooldino]

Hey...careful with maf limit...it will lean out the car...and may cause detonation and shit...
It had happened to me before...
Yeah, i ordered a JoeP FCD to try to fix it.

[Kooldino]

Still I do not see where the camshaft is helping.

I never said it definitely helped. I have to fix my MAF issue and retune and dyno to prove that. I was just showing how my car does have good low end torque, even though you said that it didn't. Now granted, Dean's had more, but he was also tuned. I wasn't.



Here is a 15psi pull from Deans with the mostly stock MSP exhaust system. We did make a downpipe and removed the front cat. @4,000 rpms Dean was up 20 lbs ft at the same 15psi.

I was actually at 14psi on the dyno.

[igdrasil]

I think the engine loose torque with a bigger or longer EXHAUST cam.
I think is better porting and polishing the head.

[MPNick]

I was referring to the lower of the two curves, the upper one looks good... is the lower one Dana's? As it is rather similar... just confused as to what i'm seeing there.
Deans was the top line, he made over 300 on that pull. I was pointing out that with the same boost and the stock MSP exhuast from the second cat on back that you have 20 more lbs ft of torque at 4,000 rpms. I think the bigger intake camshaft hurts the turbo engine.

Thanks again

Later............Nick

[MPNick]

I never said it definitely helped. I have to fix my MAF issue and retune and dyno to prove that. I was just showing how my car does have good low end torque, even though you said that it didn't. Now granted, Dean's had more, but he was also tuned. I wasn't.


I was actually at 14psi on the dyno.
That was also Deans first time on the dyno for tuning. I do not see the MAF problem hurting torque. I see it hurting HP more then lowend torque. But until we all go back to the dyno later this summer we will not know for sure. It is good that someone has tried a camshaft and then dynoed the car. The more data we get the better it is for everyone on the forum. Real number always work better then "feels strong".


Thanks again



Later............Nick

[TurfBurn]

Well a little update.. I'll have the head off the engine this week... I can see that the number 4 piston is on edge though... I can see ring landings it looks like through the sprk plug hole....

Taking off the head is WAY easier than I ever thought it would be... I've spent probably a total of 5-6 hours working on the car if that... taking my sweet time and removing everything as I go and teaching a friend... The head is loose right now I just didn't pull the PS pump and a couple other minor things I need ot pull before the head comes all the way free (and work on draining some more coolant! :) )

The hole in the block behind number 4 is much worse thatn I thought too... it's probably a good 8" long (up and down) and about 3" wide... the bottom of the rod is still on the crank, and rotates freely, so the problem wasn't the bearing or the rod bolts... so we'll have to see if it was the piston or rod that took the system! I'm betting on the rod... then the question is going to be the why!

[LinuxRacr]

Our rods are not as strong as they should be!

[TurfBurn]

Looks like it is the rod that gave and not the piston.

You'll notice in these pictures that the piston shattered UPWARDS. My theory based off that, the lack of cratering on the piston, and no discoloration or scarring of the cylinder walls is that the rod gave up, spun around and smacked the bottom of the piston cracking it and lodging it at an angle in the cylinder. Then the rod spun around a few times until it broke itself off completely. You'll see all the damage to the upper oil pan as well.

The thing that confuses and concerns me the most though is the condition of the valves. It looks like I have two bent intake valves on the cylinder that blew (number four), and I also noticed some degradation of the valve surface on cylinder number one. Any thoughts or opinions are very welcome!

[TurfBurn]

In this you can see the piston with the debris removed and pounded back down to be level again. Notice the cylinder walls are smooth and clean and not discolored. The other shot is of another piston and how much carbon and crap is on top of it.. but no damage or issues that I can see.

[TurfBurn]

another shot of the valves on cyl 4 (the one that popped)

[jersey_emt]

(omg) those pics are insane!

[TurfBurn]

Here are some pics of the cyl1 valves (notice how cooked the exhaust valves are!!!!) and the overall valve train... notice that 1 and 4 are hot, and the rest are cold...

[MPNick]

Looks like it is the rod that gave and not the piston.

You'll notice in these pictures that the piston shattered UPWARDS. My theory based off that, the lack of cratering on the piston, and no discoloration or scarring of the cylinder walls is that the rod gave up, spun around and smacked the bottom of the piston cracking it and lodging it at an angle in the cylinder. Then the rod spun around a few times until it broke itself off completely. You'll see all the damage to the upper oil pan as well.

The thing that confuses and concerns me the most though is the condition of the valves. It looks like I have two bent intake valves on the cylinder that blew (number four), and I also noticed some degradation of the valve surface on cylinder number one. Any thoughts or opinions are very welcome!
Rod bolts to my eyes so far. Take a look at how the head gasket was sealing. I see the one head pins is stuck in the head. It should be in the block. It also lool like the head gasket was not sitting right, it may have moved or was not on right from the start. Was the head off of this car before?

[TurfBurn]

rod bolts or head bolts?? (rod bolts were still holding the bottom of the rod onto the crank and it was fully intact down there other than chewed to hell)

I don't know if the head was ever off.... not in the time I had it, and I don't see any reason why it would have come off as no work was ever done on it... But only Terry would know for sure.

I noticed that the coolant passages and the like were dirty as hell... don't know if that would have anything to do with either...

So you think it was something with the head gasket?

I don't know jack about diagnosing a blown engine... :D So any help is great!

[TurfBurn]

It also lool like the head gasket was not sitting right, it may have moved or was not on right from the start.
The gasket was jostled/moved in that picture where I have the gasket still sitting on top of the block.

[MPNick]

rod bolts or head bolts?? (rod bolts were still holding the bottom of the rod onto the crank and it was fully intact down there other than chewed to hell)

I don't know if the head was ever off.... not in the time I had it, and I don't see any reason why it would have come off as no work was ever done on it... But only Terry would know for sure.

I noticed that the coolant passages and the like were dirty as hell... don't know if that would have anything to do with either...

So you think it was something with the head gasket?

I don't know jack about diagnosing a blown engine... :D So any help is great!
Did not see the lower end yet. When rods break due to load they go down. Now sometimes the will start to bend over time from to much load. Then the bottom of the piston will hit the counter shaft and things will fly up. So if your rod bolts are good then it must have been that the rods were bent.

Take a look at the head pin in stuck in the head. It should be in the block more then half way, it is not. Did the head gasket shift?

[MPNick]

The gasket was jostled/moved in that picture where I have the gasket still sitting on top of the block.
It may have moved when you removed the head. Why is the pin stuck all of the way in the head? Can you pull the pin right out?

[igdrasil]

Hey...I saw the pictures and some smell came around.
Remembering my engine(nervous)

THIS IS THE SAME THAT HAPPENED TO MY ENGINE. Piston 1 and 4 bent and twisted the rods up to the limit that the piston reached the crank shaft and got pulled out of the pin (broken under it) and left the piston in the chamber while the rod is playing around doing some decorative holes in the block.(pissed)

Hey, and about the head gasket, maybe its not aligned in the block because the alignment pins are stuck on the head and not on the block. Look for it.




rod bolts or head bolts?? (rod bolts were still holding the bottom of the rod onto the crank and it was fully intact down there other than chewed to hell)

I don't know if the head was ever off.... not in the time I had it, and I don't see any reason why it would have come off as no work was ever done on it... But only Terry would know for sure.

I noticed that the coolant passages and the like were dirty as hell... don't know if that would have anything to do with either...

So you think it was something with the head gasket?

I don't know jack about diagnosing a blown engine... :D So any help is great!

[TurfBurn]

It may have moved when you removed the head. Why is the pin stuck all of the way in the head? Can you pull the pin right out?
I'm not following you. I don't see/know what pin is in the head.... all the bolts will come out no problem... but I'm assuming you are not talking about that... where is it in which picture?

I have the center of the rod still... it's about 2" long... bent like a rather flat U in shape.. didn't know if that would be from it taking out the block and upper oil pan or if it was from before the damage..

I'll post more pics shortly of some of that stuff (don't have pics of the rod though).

[TurfBurn]

ahh... now I'm following you guys on the pins after reading Igdrasil's posts... I'll have to look for that..

[Bigg Tim]

That cylinder must have been running lean to have the valve that white.

[TurfBurn]

pics of the bottom end/rod bolts...

[TurfBurn]

the considerable damage to the upper oil pan...

[TurfBurn]

THIS IS THE SAME THAT HAPPENED TO MY ENGINE. Piston 1 and 4 bent and twisted the rods up to the limit that the piston reached the crank shaft and got pulled out of the pin (broken under it) and left the piston in the chamber while the rod is playing around doing some decorative holes in the block.(pissed)

Hey, and about the head gasket, maybe its not aligned in the block because the alignment pins are stuck on the head and not on the block. Look for it.
the pin is still in the piston though.. and the piston isn't twisted all that much off center... but yeah I follow you for sure!!

I'll have to look for those alignment pins.... never saw any sign of any of them.. the gasket was just floating around when I pulled the head off..

[TurfBurn]

Have the blown motor 100% apart at this point... Also have my new motor torn all the way down and am taking the block and crank in for machining. I am/was taking the crank in for balancing reasons, but looking at it after pulling it out it appears that it may have been balanced by the factory as at least one of the lobes has metal drilled out of it. This motor I got is in fabulous condition as the cross hatching on the cylinder walls is still very evident. I'm going to have a glaze break done on it anyway and will be getting an align hone done on the main bearing seats as a good measure. I may look into having the crank knife-edged as well, not sure though at this point.

I'll be posting my archives of pictures up to our nsnmotorsports website. I have pictures of more or less every step of the disassembly. So it may be of use to some people. I'll post some of the good pictures Thursday when I have a chance to through them (I have a hundred plus).

Later!

Steve

[vindication]

isn't knife-edging the crank pretty expensive? or is that just getting custom knife-edged cranks that are really expensive?

[Brian MP5T]

Subscribing.

[TurfBurn]

isn't knife-edging the crank pretty expensive? or is that just getting custom knife-edged cranks that are really expensive?
I've seen prices around a couple hundred. I am going to talk to the guy that I'll be using for my machining (also the guy who will do the machining for NSN Motorsports in general if you request machining through us) to see how much he wants for knife edging as well as his thoughts on it. I've been told that it isn't really worth it and from what I've learned it is really mostly a weight reduction thing similar to switching flywheels... so a flywheel switch is just that much easier really.

But overall the new motor will be getting:
Glaze Break
Align Hone
Block Deck checking
Head remachine for flatness
Full exhaust and intake port
Full exhaust and intake polish
3-5 angle valve job with back cutting
Valve swirl polish
Port matched intake manifold
intake manifold polish
chamfering cam galley oil returns
Deep cleaning and balancing of 8 550cc injectors
Complete rewire and regrounding of entire engine bay
CP pistons
Oliver Rods
High end main and rod bearings as well as excellent piston rings (brands in process of being determined)

I'll also be hand polishing all the exterior surfaces and painting the block Ford blue. Add that with my Microtech, dual fuel rails, Walbro pump, JandS safeguard and the like... this thing should move ok :) Assembling everything myself as well, just outsourcing machining.

Later!

Steve

[pdhaudio83]

wow. thats a GREAT list! (thumb)

btw, can you put all ur engine pics (blown) in a ZIP and upload it? (dont know if they are all here, or scattered around)

[TurfBurn]

I'll post a link for you on Thursday hopefully... I'll zip up the MANY pictures i have of all the blown bits and pieces and huge block hole.

Any questions or comments are very welcome... I have thought about moving this to a new thread to describe the rebuilds rather than people having to go through 14 plus pages to get to this stuff...

Watch Thursday for lots of pics and links!

Later.

Steve

[ddogg777]

Steve, my crank also had factory drilled holes. It still needed balancing though (machine shop drilled a few more :D))

[LinuxRacr]

the considerable damage to the upper oil pan... Upper oil pan = Main Bearing Support Plate (MBSP). Your shit got eaten up! (eek2)
Why does this bring back deja vu?

[TurfBurn]

Upper oil pan = Main Bearing Support Plate (MBSP). Your shit got eaten up! (eek2)
Why does this bring back deja vu?
Yeah you should see the piston itself and see the size of the hole in the block... it's at least as big as the upper oil pan mess (btw.. anytime you try to buy the part they call it an upper oil pan, but yep it does screw directly into several of the main bearing caps)

[TurfBurn]

Steve, my crank also had factory drilled holes. It still needed balancing though (machine shop drilled a few more :D))
Cool... I'll be curious to see how much this costs... the guy has 2 or 3 crank balancing machines and he does it for all the local shops... so he should be the best and the cheapest on this one.

I couldn't believe how much that crank weighed just by itself.. It's a small part in some ways and it weighs a massive amount!

[ddogg777]

Yes, that thing is friggin heavy!

[TurfBurn]

Well I have BUTT loads of pictures... since the blown up part is pretty covered... I'm going to make a new thread of "the rebuild" and try to include enough info so that people can benefit from reading the thread if they want to do it themselves. I'll try to add some more of the blown pictures here... but here is a good teaser for you.. :)

[Brian MP5T]

Please Post a link to the new thread here so I can find it.

If you need any help, I had mine appart at 500 Km and built it up. Let me know. You seem to have a real good grasp on the whole thing, just an offer. Brian

[TurfBurn]

Please Post a link to the new thread here so I can find it.

If you need any help, I had mine appart at 500 Km and built it up. Let me know. You seem to have a real good grasp on the whole thing, just an offer. BrianAny help is always welcome. Everyone's overall opinion is better than just my ideas and thoughts... I'm pretty much going to throw the book and about 6K at this motor... so we'll see where it gets me! :)

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83298&page=1&pp=15

there is the new thread.

Thanks!

Steve

[KzA]

dude...
I really have no way to describe this ...
Your motor got freakin destroyed..


The thing that really struck me was the upper oil pan, I thought it was very insane the amount of dings in it...it seriously look like you had a snap, and then that space acting as a freakin jiffy pop of metal chunks...unbelieveable..and to this we still have NO idea what caused this...

Mad props on throwing all that money and effort into the engine..I love the fact that your going to make a big thread about it...

Can we say Bryan Pendleton of protegemp3.com?

[TurfBurn]

Yeah it took a HELL of a beating... I'm quite sure the rod snapped... the rod had to be moving to hit the piston with enough force to shatter the skirt and so forth. I think it snapped up by the wrist pin, and then swept through the block and the upper pan and then finally came off after it beat the living daylights out of everything else!

I like posting a thread on what I'm doing because it is just that much more information that is easier to find and hopefully someone finds something new that spurs us on to even better engines and better performance!

[Brian MP5T]

Rod, Unquestionable. It's the weak link in this engine.

[ProtegeSpeedLX]

About 3 or 4 weeks abo I was involved with a Imature battle on this site.

I made a coment that anybody with more thain 25 whp or that is boosting more thain 12 - 15 PSI without forging there internals, They are at risk of blowing there engine's

I was slammed by erybody telling me IM WRONG, and that there is no risk

plenty of people are at 12 PSI and are running fine (someone even said they had a STOCK MSP with 330 whp)

Since then everyday I read another post about another blown engine. (2 of these engines belong to 2 people who were Bashing me, good for them, is how I feel, but Im bigger thain that and still I hope them well.)MAYBE PEOPLE SHOULDNT BE SO HARD HEADED AND ACCEPT A COMENT LIKE THAT FROM SOMEONE THERE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THEY MIGHT OF AVOIDED THIS ALL TOGETHER.

Its just that all these motors are blowing up and pretty much everybodys motor that has blown, is doing the things I warned would cause them to blow.


And everybody loves to bash me since then as I was making rude coments and vividly insulting

BUT ALL IN ALL I WAS RIGHT

I made a simple coment and the riples from it were endless.

BUT I WAS STILL RIGHT (I GOT BANNED ABOUT 12 TIMES OVER THIS SHIT)

BUT MY POINT STANDS CORECT

and more and more MSP are proving me right.


GOOD LUCK TO ALL THAT BLEW THERE SHIT UP, I HOPE YOUR NEW BLOCKS GET MORE HP AND LAST LONGER, GOOD LUCK

[TurfBurn]

I made a coment that anybody with more thain 25 whp or that is boosting more thain 12 - 15 PSI without forging there internals, They are at risk of blowing there engine's

I was slammed by erybody telling me IM WRONG, and that there is no risk

plenty of people are at 12 PSI and are running fine (someone even said they had a STOCK MSP with 330 whp)

Its just that all these motors are blowing up and pretty much everybodys motor that has blown, is doing the things I warned would cause them to blow.
I have said as well that I felt that above 12-14 was sketchy. I knew my motor was on its last legs from its days at 16 psi.. the car just didn't feel right and kept getting slower the more I tried to push the tuning.

The stock internals just aren't made for the power.... you can do it, and you won't blow up.... for a while :). You can do anything you want, it's just a matter of how long it will take to go. Frankly on a stock vehicle I wouldnt' recommend pushing past 9 psi for that matter... Even then I don't guarantee that you will stay safe.... so it's really a risk everyone has to measure out and follow.

However, in the defense of those who felt otherwise, until motors start popping it is impossible to really determine what the limit is and what is or isn't safe. The fact that a number of cars (mine included) had been pushed well up to 16 psi without problems furthered that theory. The problem was there was no longevity concerns or coverage at that point.

The mini coopers will start going through this soon. They are starting to push to about 300 hp... and supposedly "safely" on stock internals... I highly doubt the motors will hold it safely for any length of time. But until they start popping motors there is no way to know for sure

Additionally, issues like detonation and the tune come into play. So there are a lot of factors...

If you are modding your car with boost and upping the power, expect to have issues. Otherwise don't do it or err very heavily on the safe side. There is no other way around it!

Later

Steve

[igdrasil]

Yeah man, you see a lot of people around here (Puerto Rico) making 11seconds on stock internals hyundai motors. Good for a lot of races, then, when it blows up, they just buy another one in the junk yard.!!! Simple...

My friend runs a Hyundai Accent with a Elantra motor, turbo and nitrous, 11 and 12 seconds, DAILY!!!, once it blows, (mostly piston melt) he just rebuild it, or buy another motor.

[Brian MP5T]

I have said as well that I felt that above 12-14 was sketchy. I knew my motor was on its last legs from its days at 16 psi.. the car just didn't feel right and kept getting slower the more I tried to push the tuning.

The stock internals just aren't made for the power.... you can do it, and you won't blow up.... for a while :). You can do anything you want, it's just a matter of how long it will take to go. Frankly on a stock vehicle I wouldnt' recommend pushing past 9 psi for that matter... Even then I don't guarantee that you will stay safe.... so it's really a risk everyone has to measure out and follow.

However, in the defense of those who felt otherwise, until motors start popping it is impossible to really determine what the limit is and what is or isn't safe. The fact that a number of cars (mine included) had been pushed well up to 16 psi without problems furthered that theory. The problem was there was no longevity concerns or coverage at that point.

The mini coopers will start going through this soon. They are starting to push to about 300 hp... and supposedly "safely" on stock internals... I highly doubt the motors will hold it safely for any length of time. But until they start popping motors there is no way to know for sure

Additionally, issues like detonation and the tune come into play. So there are a lot of factors...

If you are modding your car with boost and upping the power, expect to have issues. Otherwise don't do it or err very heavily on the safe side. There is no other way around it!

Later

Steve
This user you have posted to has been Banned several times for being an ass.


The Mini has the benifit of being made by Mercedies. It will still POP and then they will buy forged parts from Beau, J/K. But they will buy forged!

[Brian MP5T]

Well I have BUTT loads of pictures... since the blown up part is pretty covered... I'm going to make a new thread of "the rebuild" and try to include enough info so that people can benefit from reading the thread if they want to do it themselves. I'll try to add some more of the blown pictures here... but here is a good teaser for you.. :)
The Piston looks too scary. I was lucky that mine stayed intact, just bent in the cylinder 45 Deg... Yikes.

[Brian MP5T]

Yeah man, you see a lot of people around here (Puerto Rico) making 11seconds on stock internals hyundai motors. Good for a lot of races, then, when it blows up, they just buy another one in the junk yard.!!! Simple...

My friend runs a Hyundai Accent with a Elantra motor, turbo and nitrous, 11 and 12 seconds, DAILY!!!, once it blows, (mostly piston melt) he just rebuild it, or buy another motor.
That is too cool. I love the fact that I'm not the only one who is stupid/driven to the 13's at all costs.