I want at least 130 rwhp

[PR5Matt]

What do you think of the first round of mods?

AWR Long tube
Unorthodox UDP
CAI
Corksport Exhaust
No cats
Cam gears

Second round:

Modified intake manifold
Wagner stg. II cams or J-Spec intake and Mazdaspeed exhaust
Corksport Throttle body

[mp5_57]

with those mods i dont think you will have any Rear Wheel Horse Power


hehe.....but with both rounds you might have 130 FWHP

j

[DooMer_MP3]

Whatever you do, don't bother with the J-Spec/Mazdaspeed cams. Either get the wagner ones (if they show a dyno), or get some custom ones ground.

Chris

[PR5Matt]

Sorry about the rwhp. I am used to my Lightning and Mustang. Ha! Ha! I'm a dumb ass!

[Gen1GT]

That's just a listing of a bunch of parts. What's the header primary length and diamter? Is it a Tri-Y or 4-1? What brand of CAI, they're not all the same? How thick is the exhaust piping, and does it match the header collector outlet? If you get cams, what are you going to do to get more fuel?


You need a gameplan when you want to make some power. In your case, you want 30 hp more by bolting on a bunch of parts, not knowing if they work well together. Do some research. Make a plan and get parts that'll work together to achieve your goal.

With those parts, I'd say you'd get 120hp, 125 max with cams. Tune it right, maybe 130.

[DooMer_MP3]

Does anyone have links to any info on NA tuning? Like more technical stuff behind it? Because if I do it, all I'm really doing is throwing some parts on too. But I guess it would be useful to know whats what.

This year:
-Have an AEM SRI
-OBX 4-1 Header (same as Forza, minus damn name plate)
-Bosal or Greddy EVO exhaust (2.25" piping)
-Wagner Stage 2 cams if they dyno well, otherwise customs ground to specs yet to be determined. Wagner Stage 2 supposedly go for extra lift without needing a new valvetrain, and increased duration, retain decent idle.
-MPI tuner to tune, along with J&S Safeguard which I already have to work on timing w/o detonation.

Next year:
-HC pistons, maybe P&P while head is cracked, retune.

Chris

[batmang]

id go with a magnaflow exhaust over a bosal. bosal's look ridiculous and so does the greddy, their both huge. the magnaflow has 2.25" piping and i paid $343 shipped from www.justmagnaflow.com (http://www.justmagnaflow.com/) , heres a video clip of my car.

http://www.mazsports.com/media/Mazdasports-Magnaflow_Cat_Back_Clip.wmv

i have the aem sri, magnaflow cat back and i also have the tein s-tech springs.

[PR5Matt]

That's just a listing of a bunch of parts. What's the header primary length and diamter? Is it a Tri-Y or 4-1? What brand of CAI, they're not all the same? How thick is the exhaust piping, and does it match the header collector outlet? If you get cams, what are you going to do to get more fuel?


You need a gameplan when you want to make some power. In your case, you want 30 hp more by bolting on a bunch of parts, not knowing if they work well together. Do some research. Make a plan and get parts that'll work together to achieve your goal.

With those parts, I'd say you'd get 120hp, 125 max with cams. Tune it right, maybe 130.
First off, don't talk to me like I don't know what I am doing. Look at my website. I know my stuff. Second, the parts listed are what's out there and everyone should know what they are and what they do. I just want to hear from people with experience concerning these parts and any variation thereof. As for the T-body, I didn't list it but it would be 62-65mm if available. I know that 130 is a lofty goal with this engine, but why not? As far as the cams who knows anything about the Wagner stage IIs?

Dude, it is nice that you contribute here, but don't start talking to people like they don't know what they are doing until you know them better. You have did pretty good with that old car of yours, but you are not an expert. No one is an expert about everything automotive. When you do this stuff like I have been for years you are always learning. Each car and engine has its own subtle differences, that is why we should talk to others, swallow our pride and ask questions and ask for help. If this was a Mustang forum, I probably wouldn't even contribute much (at least where pushrod performance is involved), but I like to hear what others have done. You learn by doing and listening.

[PR5Matt]

id go with a magnaflow exhaust over a bosal. bosal's look ridiculous and so does the greddy, their both huge. the magnaflow has 2.25" piping and i paid $343 shipped from www.justmagnaflow.com (http://www.justmagnaflow.com/) , heres a video clip of my car.

http://www.mazsports.com/media/Mazdasports-Magnaflow_Cat_Back_Clip.wmv

i have the aem sri, magnaflow cat back and i also have the tein s-tech springs.
Thanks a lot! I had Magnaflow on my old fOCUS but it was as loud a f**k with the 4-2-1 long-tube header. I am thinking about CorkSport because they go ahead and replace the second cat. Saves having to buy a midpipe.

[shinzen]

There are a few things to consider here. First, with our cars going N/A the optimum exhaust size is 2.25"- according to manufacturer dyno's from jic racing and magnaflow. With headers- see the dyno charts. For example with intake, just a muffler, and shorty header mp5smuggler pulled 121 whp...
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11189

Cams, light engine management, and a full exhaust instead- could get you where you want to be.

[PR5Matt]

There are a few things to consider here. First, with our cars going N/A the optimum exhaust size is 2.25"- according to manufacturer dyno's from jic racing and magnaflow. With headers- see the dyno charts. For example with intake, just a muffler, and shorty header mp5smuggler pulled 121 whp...
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11189

Cams, light engine management, and a full exhaust instead- could get you where you want to be.
Thanks a lot! That really helps. I agree that 2.25 is about all I would need.

[PR5Matt]

GEN1GT,

Sorry I am cranky today. I have a kidney stone in me the size of a pea, and I am in a lot of pain, plus I am at work...

[Gen1GT]

Dude, sorry if I offended you. I thought I was answering the question the best way I could. You asked about your first mods and I gave my opinion. Bolt ons are guesswork, and there's not much you can do about that. The only other option is custom work, and that's the route I took. It's more expensive, but you know exactly what you're getting and can have everything made to your specs.

I chose 2.5" exhaust because of my 170whp goal, running upwards of 8500rpm. If I was going for 150 at 7500 or so, 2.25" would be fine.

[DooMer_MP3]

id go with a magnaflow exhaust over a bosal. bosal's look ridiculous and so does the greddy, their both huge. the magnaflow has 2.25" piping and i paid $343 shipped from www.justmagnaflow.com (http://www.justmagnaflow.com/) , heres a video clip of my car.

http://www.mazsports.com/media/Mazdasports-Magnaflow_Cat_Back_Clip.wmv

i have the aem sri, magnaflow cat back and i also have the tein s-tech springs.
What does the magnaflow have as far as a resonator or secondary cat? If I get a header, I don't want to be a straight pipe. SpicyMchaggis already said it sounds horrible. Is there a resonator? Or a cat? Or both?

Also, people complained about surface rust with the magnaflow. Has it been an issue yet? You've only had it for a short time though...

Chris

[scorch70]

What do you think of the first round of mods?

AWR Long tube
Unorthodox UDP
CAI
Corksport Exhaust
No cats
Cam gears

Second round:

Modified intake manifold
Wagner stg. II cams or J-Spec intake and Mazdaspeed exhaust
Corksport Throttle body
I think you will make it with the right cams and some tuning. Don't forget to keep us updated (if possible, with dyno's after each mod).


scorch70

[gino]

What does the magnaflow have as far as a resonator or secondary cat? If I get a header, I don't want to be a straight pipe. SpicyMchaggis already said it sounds horrible. Is there a resonator? Or a cat? Or both?

Also, people complained about surface rust with the magnaflow. Has it been an issue yet? You've only had it for a short time though...

ChrisChris, Matt, Scorch, et al--

P5 is running Injen CIA, Magnaflow CB and EssentialSPEED shorty header to maintain both cats (Colorado is an emissions test state), although I might be able to dump cat #1 and run #2 only. Something for futurethink.

With the setup above, the engine cranks 105 ponies with 115 lbs/ft of twist. That's it, but those are dynoed, not "probably" numbers. Scorch and I had the same basic mods before we installed different headers and our dyno #s were slightly different, but this can be expected with different dynos, even of the same manufacture. Dynos can and do vary slightly, and that's why it's important to always use the same dyno when pulling runs. Otherwise, you're doing a little apples to oranges stuff.

I went with the ES shorty for reasons stated above, but may put this header on wife's '03 ES, which also has Injen/Magnaflow combo, and move to a 4-2-1. The reason Scorch gained as much WHP as he did is the AWR header design. You'll note the gain in torque is less than half the kick in HP. What we all want is a nice 7-8 WHP gain with an added 8-10 lbs/ft of twist. HPs great, but torque is what makes the wheels go 'round.

BTW, Chris, the Magnaflow CB is a deep mellow purr, absolutely non-rice, even with the header. In fact, the header took the slightly annoying resonance out of the system at cruising speeds--3500-4200 rpm or 70-80+ mph. Once again, though, that's a "bundle of snakes" shorty header, not a direct drop 4/1 as is the AWR, Wagner, Forza, etc.

I, too, wanna see 130+ WHP, but with that, I also want to see 140-150 lbs/ft of urge--at least. Not sure that's possible with current mods I'm looking at.

I still have an ES TB to install, hopefully this weekend, to see what a 17% increase in throat area does for thinner air here at 5280 feet. Maybe zilch with stock EMS. I do know that a minor change in carb mains in my Alfa 2.0L makes an immediate difference in driveability and performance. But then, I don't have to try to outwit a computer chip.

My $.02 worth...

[PR5Matt]

I think you will make it with the right cams and some tuning. Don't forget to keep us updated (if possible, with dyno's after each mod).


scorch70
I can't do it after each mod, but at the Bowling Green NMRA Finals I am going to dyno it and the Lightning, but that is not until Sept.1.(bang)

[PR5Matt]

What kind of dyno do most of you guys use. The Mustang Chassis dyno shows much lower numbers than a Dynojet or DynaPack.

[Familia323]

ooohhh 2 pages on N/A and people aren't bickering like kids... wow, Id love to stay involved in this conversation. Since you guys are talking about 130whp... I would also like to reach this mark. I have now an AWR header and hacked the stock air box(temporary). I'm looking at the Racing Beat cat back. I believe they said ID is 2 and a 1/4... what do you guys think? Would this be a good catback to use to open the exhaust up? I will have to make a midpipe, but that shouldnt be a problem.

[gino]

What kind of dyno do most of you guys use. The Mustang Chassis dyno shows much lower numbers than a Dynojet or DynaPack.Dynojet calibrated daily and before each run of three pulls. It's SAE-corrected with special mods to compensate automatically for altitude, temp and humidity. $55 for three pulls, $100/hr for tuning.

[PR5Matt]

I think I'll make my own midpipe and go with the Racing Beat for sound. Any good buys in it?

[Familia323]

so I'll take that as a yes then...

[mp5smuggler]

well as someone already posted i made 121 whp with the wagner shorty header and an axel back muffler. i also had an intake.

if you went and gutted the precat and went with a full 2.25 exhust from there i bet you would see upwards to 126 to 128 whp..... that precat is SO damn restrictive!!! add in the underdrive pullies and all and just with the first round youll deff hit 128 whp no problem in my opinon at least.

[mp5smuggler]

now if you really want to make some power here is a list that i KNOW will get you over 140whp
CAI
AWR header
Mazdaspeed cams
j spec pistons raises compression to 10:1:1 i thnk
either the j spec intake mani or port and polish your current one
and an catback exhust

i know this cause UPSman made 144 whp with this basic setup cause he did a ful engine swap to the jspec

[Familia323]

did he get the Jspec ECU too? or is that just using the plain old stock ECU?

[mp5smuggler]

at the time of the dyno i am pretty sure he was running the US ecu not the Jspec.... but im not 100% sure.

[gino]

ooohhh 2 pages on N/A and people aren't bickering like kids... wow, Id love to stay involved in this conversation. Since you guys are talking about 130whp... I would also like to reach this mark. I have now an AWR header and hacked the stock air box(temporary). I'm looking at the Racing Beat cat back. I believe they said ID is 2 and a 1/4... what do you guys think? Would this be a good catback to use to open the exhaust up? I will have to make a midpipe, but that shouldnt be a problem.A 2.25 pipe dia seems to be the norm, if you check available systems. The 2.25" is the best match for the NA DE unless you're running a balls to the wall churn with mega racing mods and you need greater extraction capability than you run on the street. 2.5 systems are available (we can argue their merits over the 2.25) and you can find larger bores. Bigger ain't necessarily better, in this instance...(naughty)

[Familia323]

:)

[mp5smuggler]

what amazes me is how everyone thats looking for NA power seems to forget the pistons.

[batmang]

i spent a lot of bills on an ES 4-2-1 header, hi flow cat and mid pipe. these items should be here within june. i should be on the right track to hitting 130whp, at least i hope i am.

AEM SRI seated like a wanna be CAI, ES 4-2-1 Header, Hi Flow cat and mid pipe, magnaflow exhaust. All stock piping will have been replaced with bigger tubes of non-restrictive fury! wooooooo!

the wagon of fury is on its way.

[batmang]

by the way, DO not let my video clip fool you. the reason its so " loud " is cause of the camera. it muffles the sound a lot and thats why it sounds like a damn sr20 hauling ass, i which it sounded that mean, but it doesnt. the exhaust itself sounds really close to stock, just a deep growlish hint to it. when i WOT all i really hear is my intake sucking like crazy. my intake is fuggin loud. because its a SRI, its gonna be much lounder cause its RIGHT under the hood, also, the way i have it positioned, its right behind my left headlight. so with my window down, all i hear is the intake. even from outside the car, all you hear at WOT is the intake. the exhaust kicksass for the price, its nice for what you pay. ill get back to you guys on the " rusting " issue people have blabbered about, although i live in tucson az where it hardly rains. ill let you know after monsoon's come this summer.

[Familia323]

now if you really want to make some power here is a list that i KNOW will get you over 140whp
CAI
AWR header
Mazdaspeed cams
j spec pistons raises compression to 10:1:1 i thnk
either the j spec intake mani or port and polish your current one
and an catback exhust

i know this cause UPSman made 144 whp with this basic setup cause he did a ful engine swap to the jspec
so if he made 144whp by swapping out those parts for the Jspec parts, why is it that no one talks about this anymore? Did something go wrong? I'd be happy with 144whp...

[batmang]

anyone know if a bigger throttle body will do anything for us?

[flat_black]

Bigger throttle bodies help with better throttle response, mostly.

Also, if you're going to go with a set of high compression pistons, I don't think I'd go with the JSpec pistons... They should be fine for most setups, but honestly it'd be better to just get a set of custom made forged pistons and drop those in instead; That way you have strong, forged pistons running the proper compression rather than the cast ones on there now, or the higher compression cast pistons from Japan. Just an idea. =) The ECU makes a good difference in power, too, given that the tuning on the stock ECU is rather conservitive. I'd probably go with adjustable cam gears, too, just so you could get everything tuned juuuuust right. =)

[uclap5]

mazdaspeed sells some high compression pistons, higher than the fsze pistons.

upsman didnt use the wiring harness/ ecu from the fsze because it is OBD-I, and would be more trouble than its worth to wire that sucker up.

the fsze swap is quite costly for a ~20 hp gain, but then again if you look at the dynos of the fsze intake manifold + intake cam it smooths it out tremendously, and the top end doesnt die off after 5.5 like it does on our fsde.

[PR5Matt]

what amazes me is how everyone thats looking for NA power seems to forget the pistons.
Oh, I remembered, but with only 4600mi on the clock, I am not ready to tear her down just yet.

[mp5smuggler]

yea UPSman just wanted to do the full swap to be the one here that had it done.

[Glowspeedp5]

last time I talked to UPSMAN he had a us spec ECU.....

[Gen1GT]

Hey Smuggler, what are your mods, and what dyno was that run done on? It would be rather unique for just a header and a muffler to get you 20whp.

[mp5smuggler]

dynapuck where they take your rims off.
i have wagner shorty headers a sai an axel back and thats all that would make a diff. i mean a kartboy shifter and short ant isnt going to change anything.

btw it say it very clearly on the dyno chart what it was done on

[Gen1GT]

dynapuck where they take your rims off.
i have wagner shorty headers a sai an axel back and thats all that would make a diff. i mean a kartboy shifter and short ant isnt going to change anything.

btw it say it very clearly on the dyno chart what it was done on
I'm lookin around, and I don't see your dyno chart.

The dynapuck does seem to rate higher, since you take away the rotational inertia of the wheels. We can really compare numbers anyways, unless we're all on the EXACT same dyno. Although from Dynojet to Dynojet, the results are usually within 1%. You get good repeatability.

[mp5smuggler]

the link is on the first page

[mp3moose]

I should probably get dynoed to see what the pistons make. I would suggest you get an mp3 ecu instead of aftermarket. A lot cheaper and no tuning required.

[shinzen]

Good point on the mp3 ecu, for those that haven't been around for awhile, that leans out the A/F and advances the timing (10 degrees, correct me if I am wrong) finer tuning is available with piggy-backs or standalones, but if you don't like messing with that stuff, that would not be a bad route to go. I wonder however how it would handle some 12:1 pistons and other more extreme mods.

[batmang]

im currently in the works of trying to get an mp3 ecu myself. i just hate knowing i gotta run premium, doh!

[mp3moose]

im currently in the works of trying to get an mp3 ecu myself. i just hate knowing i gotta run premium, doh!
Its not too bad.....gives you better gas mileage on the highway. Not the best for city however.

[shinzen]

That would be another benifit to piggy-back- have another map for crappy gas!

[akhilleus]

the magnaflows are cheap crap. imo i would say invest in a nice muffler and have a catback made. Also regarding the noise i think a hi-flow cat and resonator would be just fine. Mod wise that combo should get u to 130whp no problem. As long as u address the important aspects of the vehicle u could have that power w/o ems.
personally i dont think its worth waiting for the stage II cams at this point.... who knows how long untilt hey are available. Custom cams all the way. Dont even waste your money on the mazdaspeed exhaust cam...jdm intake isnt great either but if u were to choose get the jdm and make a cutom exhaust cam. I really believe the exhaust cam is the spot that needs the most work. If u need cam spec suggestions i could point u in the right direction.

[shinzen]

I am thinking the same as you on the stage II cams after finally reading through the thread on perf- custom cams are definitely the way to go- I don't own the magnaflow, so I can only speculate, but the diameter seems right, whether or not it holds up is another issue.

[Iconoclast]

your only about 35-40 horses away from that stock, no offense but if you know anything bout cars, it shouldnt be too hard...

intake
throttle body
wrapped heder
full pipes from the heder(go custom)
fuel pump
battery and ground kit
plugs/wires/distibutor/coil
flywheel
pulley
remap the air to fuel

this will add the hp, now to maintain it (keep it contsant), upgrade your fluids (oil, gas), get a short throw, and toss anything out you wont need (lighten her up) i would also recomend a oil catch tank and guages for the ATF and fuel pressure.

these changes will work on almost any car for that amount of hp-specially since these are the most common aftermarket parts and you can do most of the replacments your self, if thats all you want. plus you could add another 40 with the good ol laughing gas, opening up the head and adding cams can get pricey, and if your gonna do that go all the way, piston,rods, ect.

[Gen1GT]

your only about 35-40 horses away from that stock, no offense but if you know anything bout cars, it shouldnt be too hard...

intake
throttle body
wrapped heder-or ceramic coated
full pipes from the heder(go custom)
fuel pump-why?
battery and ground kit-waste of money if it's not an issue
plugs/wires/distibutor/coil-huh? distributor? leave everything stock unless needed
flywheel
pulley
remap the air to fuel-ya, lets have a 'remap the air to fuel day' since it so easy

this will add the hp, now to maintain it (keep it contsant), upgrade your fluids (oil, gas), get a short throw, and toss anything out you wont need (lighten her up) i would also recomend a oil catch tank and guages for the ATF and fuel pressure.

these changes will work on almost any car for that amount of hp-specially since these are the most common aftermarket parts and you can do most of the replacments your self, if thats all you want. plus you could add another 40 with the good ol laughing gas, opening up the head and adding cams can get pricey, and if your gonna do that go all the way, piston,rods, ect.No offense man, but you should read a bit more in the NA section. These guys all know their shit, and these aren't questions with easy answers. It seems to me, that you need to update your knowledge base on what makes hp. Here's a hint. Ignition systems are worthless, unless your stock system is a liability. As it sits, plugs, wires, coil and ESPECIALLY distributor(I think the FS-DE needs more work on the flux capacitor and rotator splint before you work on the FS distributor), are the last thing on the list....

[Iconoclast]

fuel pump= more air in means need of more fuel

batt and ground= i have to explain?, you shoundnt ask
dist plugs, ect-see above

remap the ATF-didnt say do it yourself or it would be easy,

i think he posted this thread for help, not to hear from an ass.

i dont need to read shit, when other changes are made on a NA motor previous changes themselves have bump as well, you need to know which affect which. and i know the other guys in that thread know thier shit-maybe you should follow your own advice

[Gen1GT]

fuel pump= more air in means need of more fuel

batt and ground= i have to explain?, you shoundnt ask
dist plugs, ect-see above

remap the ATF-didnt say do it yourself or it would be easy,

i think he posted this thread for help, not to hear from an ass.

i dont need to read shit, when other changes are made on a NA motor previous changes themselves have bump as well, you need to know which affect which. and i know the other guys in that thread know thier shit-maybe you should follow your own advice
LOL.... Stock fuel pump will flow PLENTY enough fuel for 130whp. How about you focus on INJECTORS if anything. Battery and ground? Do the 3rd Gens have a misfire problem that I'm not aware of? If not, then why would you need a new battery, ground, plugwires or coil? And here's a little heads up. FS-DE doesn't have a distributor. Apparently you DO need to read shit.....

[Replica]

I'm confused, ground wires don't do anything. And a fuel pump is a HUGE waste of money for 130whp. Yeah, no dizzy on a 3rd gen, sorry. Flywheel will not add power....at all.

[PR5Matt]

I just purchase a Long tube and a Magnaflow cat back. I'll make my own mid-pipe. I have owned Magnaflow before and had no problems. They are just loud with a long tube. My mid pipe will have a resonator.

[Familia323]

sweet... let us know what you think when you get it all installed. Oh and I want to see your midpipe when you are done. :)

[PR5Matt]

sweet... let us know what you think when you get it all installed. Oh and I want to see your midpipe when you are done. :)
It I'll be a couple of weeks, but I will post pics.

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

your only about 35-40 horses away from that stock, no offense but if you know anything bout cars, it shouldnt be too hard...

intake
throttle body
wrapped heder
full pipes from the heder(go custom)
fuel pump
battery and ground kit
plugs/wires/distibutor/coil
flywheel
pulley
remap the air to fuel

this will add the hp, now to maintain it (keep it contsant), upgrade your fluids (oil, gas), get a short throw, and toss anything out you wont need (lighten her up) i would also recomend a oil catch tank and guages for the ATF and fuel pressure.

these changes will work on almost any car for that amount of hp-specially since these are the most common aftermarket parts and you can do most of the replacments your self, if thats all you want. plus you could add another 40 with the good ol laughing gas, opening up the head and adding cams can get pricey, and if your gonna do that go all the way, piston,rods, ect.

im not even positive its that hard, considering im only 12whp away with just intake/exhaust/plugs/wires

[PR5Matt]

fuel pump= more air in means need of more fuel

batt and ground= i have to explain?, you shoundnt ask
dist plugs, ect-see above

remap the ATF-didnt say do it yourself or it would be easy,

i think he posted this thread for help, not to hear from an ass.

i dont need to read shit, when other changes are made on a NA motor previous changes themselves have bump as well, you need to know which affect which. and i know the other guys in that thread know thier shit-maybe you should follow your own advice
The mods don't really add on one another. If that were true, we would all be running 200whp. You have a give and take between mods. BTW, If you think I don't know what I am doing, then come to WV where I can embarass you with my cars, or to make it fairer how about my brother-in-law's Merkur?

You need to go back to adding horsepower the ricer way...with stickers!

[batmang]

The mods don't really add on one another. If that were true, we would all be running 200whp. You have a give and take between mods. BTW, If you think I don't know what I am doing, then come to WV where I can embarass you with my cars, or to make it fairer how about my brother-in-law's Merkur?

You need to go back to adding horsepower the ricer way...with stickers!
OoOooooOOOOooOOoOOOOooooOooo!!!! (owned)

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

LOL.... Stock fuel pump will flow PLENTY enough fuel for 130whp. How about you focus on INJECTORS if anything. Battery and ground? Do the 3rd Gens have a misfire problem that I'm not aware of? If not, then why would you need a new battery, ground, plugwires or coil? And here's a little heads up. FS-DE doesn't have a distributor. Apparently you DO need to read shit.....
my MP3 ran like ass with the stock plug wires but i think they had something wrong with them, and the car idles alot smoother and drives alot smoother with the grounding kit, doubt it added any hp but it makes the car run better so IMO it was a worthwhile mod.

[PR5Matt]

OoOooooOOOOooOOoOOOOooooOooo!!!! (owned)
Sorry, I got a little pissy there...

I don't like to be told that I don't know my shit. I don't mind advice, but DO NOT CALL ME STUPID!!!! Because of factors like the ECU programming, cams, compression,timming, etc. bolt on mods start to diminish after a point. Then you have to start getting into the motor. I do believe that I can come close to 130 with bolt-ons, but seriously.. a grounding kit? I know there are dynos out there that say they work, but I tend to believe that stuff is a lot of hot air (especiall when they cost so damn much).

[PR5Matt]

I think I am going here to get some killer bolt ons!

http://www.kalecoauto.com/

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

Sorry, I got a little pissy there...

I don't like to be told that I don't know my shit. I don't mind advice, but DO NOT CALL ME STUPID!!!! Because of factors like the ECU programming, cams, compression,timming, etc. bolt on mods start to diminish after a point. Then you have to start getting into the motor. I do believe that I can come close to 130 with bolt-ons, but seriously.. a grounding kit? I know there are dynos out there that say they work, but I tend to believe that stuff is a lot of hot air (especiall when they cost so damn much).
My grounding kit: $37 and the car runs smoother. whether it produces more hp or not i dont know.

[Gen1GT]

This is all you need to know about plug wires. Here's a hint. NGK are stock. (click on the brands to the right to see results0

http://www.tprmag.com/issue/4/4_wires.shtml

[Mr. Win]

import a sport 20

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

This is all you need to know about plug wires. Here's a hint. NGK are stock. (click on the brands to the right to see results0

http://www.tprmag.com/issue/4/4_wires.shtml

i like my sparkco's better than my stock ones :shrug:

[PR5Matt]

What do you think of the first round of mods?

AWR Long tube
Unorthodox UDP
CAI
Corksport Exhaust
No cats
Cam gears

Second round:

Modified intake manifold
Wagner stg. II cams or J-Spec intake and Mazdaspeed exhaust
Corksport Throttle body
Well, I am knocking 'em down. On order and awaiting delivery to my hot hands:

Long-tube header
Unorthodox UDP
Magnaflow exhaust
(I already have the CAI, plus I ordered some AWR mounts, and an SS clutch line to help put down the power a little better.)

Any suggestions on cam gears?

[Replica]

I don't think the little cams (mazda speed) are a bad deal for the money, I think the intake cam is like $180 for about 5whp.

[SpicyMchaggis]

I think I am going here to get some killer bolt ons!

http://www.kalecoauto.com/
dude that is the best thing i've ever seen.

[shinzen]

Well, I am knocking 'em down. On order and awaiting delivery to my hot hands:

Long-tube header
Unorthodox UDP
Magnaflow exhaust
(I already have the CAI, plus I ordered some AWR mounts, and an SS clutch line to help put down the power a little better.)

Any suggestions on cam gears?
Yep- send them directly to me!

[akhilleus]

that kaleco site is a riot. At first i was like...oh a new parts site...then as i started reading LOL. damn i want the asbestos radiator cover...!

[Familia323]

Well, I am knocking 'em down. On order and awaiting delivery to my hot hands:

Long-tube header
Unorthodox UDP
Magnaflow exhaust
(I already have the CAI, plus I ordered some AWR mounts, and an SS clutch line to help put down the power a little better.)

Any suggestions on cam gears?
I hear mixed reviews about the negative effects from installing Underdrive Pullies. I hear it has something to do with harmonic balancers.. Anyone have any actual information on this?

[Installshield 2]

I hear mixed reviews about the negative effects from installing Underdrive Pullies. I hear it has something to do with harmonic balancers.. Anyone have any actual information on this?

Its a physics thing...It would take me about 2 full pages to explain it to the point where it would make any sense at all...I will do my best to shorten it..and I am NOT a physics major (lots of physics in my major though, but this is more of a kinematics/oscillation thing)

your engine has a rotating or "recipricating" assembly...There are 4 pistons on top of rods, that push the crank at different angles, and these angular "thrust" motions result in your crank rotating...But the problem relating to this "harmonics" stuff mostly lies in balance...metal is rarely uniform, and as hard as Mazda attempted, the crank will always have repeated areas that are not perfectly balanced with the other places...So you get what is known indirectly as oscillation...Which is basically a repeating motion (As far as trigonometric functions: A sine curve is sometimes refered to as an "oscillating" function, in which it has a period in which a repeating action takes place...SO in non goofy language, it goes up and down uniformly as it moves outward on a horizontal axis)...Your crank will start to do this in the crank journals, as a result of the inperfections throughout the recipricating assembly...Now is where I am going to make this short...

One way to fix this oscillation problem is to stick two heavy ass pieces of something at the end of the rotating device, as long as they are balanced and rotate with it...In this case, a heavy ass underdrive pulley, and a heavy ass flywheel...Problem solved...not really, but the crank is strong enough to tolerate the residual oscillation...

So when you install a lightweight underdrive pulley, you are removing the additional crank balance that it provides...The Harmonic balancer notion (keeping it simple) basically refers to the fact that it helps to counter any oscillation...Some hardcore car guys will call a crank pulley a "harmonic balancer", in an attempt to get laid...feel free to laugh at them...oscillation can and will become a problem the higher the ouput, and the higher the degree of rotation (rpms)...So basically, the underdrive pulley is sometimes kept stock on modified high rpm high output racing engines, and only the flywheel is lightened...as a safety precaution...overtime, extreme oscillation can break down machined journal surfaces, and start to wear on the entire crank through the extreme high speed vibration...so in the end, the engine can scatter...

In this application though (for 130whp)...go ahead an do it...in a worse case, you may notice a little more vibration at idle and lower speeds...you will feel it anyway at higher rpms...If you were boosting to 20psi, and already had a 7.5lb flywheel, I may get on you about it a bit...but even then it might be fine, we simply don't know enough about this engines crank strength yet...

again dudes, I tried to keep this simple...The reality is it is unfairly complex, and takes tons of math to prove properly...I can't even begin to make the symbols used in the calculus to illustrate it on this computer right now...so if any of you understand it fully, please don't flamefor giving such a poor illustration..just explain it better...

[Installshield 2]

alright dudes...overall this is a great thread...there are a few problems, and Gen1 got to a few..I will try to give an NA 101 real quick...

Someone mentioned higher compression pistons...The whole law behind this is directly related to the fact that the tighter you squeeze a mixture of reactants...the faster and more forcefull it will react and expand...so you get more power...But it is far more complicated...You can't simply plop a set of 14:1 compression pistons in your FS and call it a day...you will basically have just built a grenade...Compression dynamics severely alter wave motions throughout the combustion chambers, and radically change air and fuel requirments...and the timing of each (the fuel part at least)...simply stated: You cannot significantly bump the static compression ratio and get good numbers with the stock ECU...You will very quickly get detonation problems, heat problems...and poor drivability...and usually less power...

Now remember two years ago when UPSman was doing all this...and I could have swore he had a tuned Unichip installed...which probably could have handled his higher compression ZE engine, and definately would help make 144whp...but if he didn't, I am suprised...But the stock ECU will never "see" properly what you changed when increase the compression...So it needs a piggyback or a standalone to properly maintain reliability and increase output..

So its not that people forgot about HC pistons...its that it takes a lot more than just the pistons to get the gains you want (compression increases can also alter cam timing requirments, exhaust pulse behavior, fuel requirments...and will truely test how ballsy your cooling system is)

Gen1 nailed the fuel system stuff...it will NEVER be needed to ever be looked at for 130whp...

Someone said that a bigger TB will increase throttle response...I have no idea where that came from...If you increase its size (its perfectly fine as it is, even for a very aggresive build) you will slow down the intake charges velocity...which will gut efficiency at low rpm (which will gut torque)...maybe give some breathing gains up high...but will almost always hurt throttle response...even very well tuned NA engines with big Throttle bodies will choke or stumple if you lay into it below the powerband...

My list for 130whp will go as follows: Keep in mind there are a number of different mods to get you around it...I will try to keep it as cheap as possible...

A header...Beit the OBX, AWR, or even a shorty...one will be needed most likely...If you get a shorty, the stock downpipe the hell out of there...

a CB..I would recommend the RB...its dyno shows decent gains on an otherwise stock car..the ID is 60mm I think, which comes in to roughly 2.37"...definately good for this type of NA build up...like mentioned earlier, there is such a thing as too big...if you go with another brand, try to keep it close to that in diameter or you will start to significantly loose lowend torque...and where it really starts to sing will be above the redline...

a J-spec intake cam...nevermind the MSP exhaust cam for this amount of power...that one barely showed any additional gains on top of the ZE intake cam (which was like 4whp or something on a stock FS)...

A custom intake(just for $$$ sake) with a high quality cone filter...do some research on the stock diameter, and play around with some numbers...You could really get complicated and try a progressive diameter "tapered" intake that ould give you crazy gains, but it would be hard to create...

That should get you very close to 130whp...There are some dyno's from the old board that I will try to find that get near it, and hadn't pretty different numbers...The header choice will most likely make or break it...AWR pieces are expensive, but respond very well, especially when coupled with a good exhaust...Not sure about the others too much though...

[Familia323]

again dudes, I tried to keep this simple...The reality is it is unfairly complex, and takes tons of math to prove properly...I can't even begin to make the symbols used in the calculus to illustrate it on this computer right now...so if any of you understand it fully, please don't flamefor giving such a poor illustration..just explain it better...
actually you did a good job. I understand. You didnt even have to elaborate on oscillation. Basically what you said is what I had heard only you went a little more in depth about it and I get it now. Thank you.. (thumb)

[batmang]

you guys think i will be close to 130whp with these mods?

AEM SRI - Seated behind the headlight instead of down behind the radiator fan
Essential Speed 4-2-1 Header ceramic coated, hi flow cat, and mid pipe, and
Magnaflow Cat-Back.

I've got my sri and catback installed, im just awaiting my header setup to come in. I wish I had money to get a dyno of my car now, and then one after installing the header, but im broke yo.

[Familia323]

from what I've learned, it sounds more like 120whp than 130... but then again what do I know....

[Gen1GT]

A note on engine balancing. There are ways to minimize an unbalanced engine's nasty effects. Crankshafts are balanced to a degree from the factory, but only to a certain point, and then only to a certain degree. It's done to be effecient and cheap. Every time you change your rods, pistons, hell, even wrist pin, you affect the balance of your engine. To properly balance your crank, a shop will need to know your 'bobweight'. This is the combined weight of your piston, rod, wrist pin(clips too, if it's a floating design), rod bearings and rings. This weight is then used to set up a bobweight on the rod journal of your crank on the balancing machine, that is the EXACT same weight as your recipricating parts(although the rods rotate AND recipricate). You want to have all your internals balanced beforehand too. All your pistons should weigh the same, ALL your rods should weigh the same and should be balanced at both ends(ie all the big ends should weigh the same, and all the small ends should weigh the same) Some shops will externally balance(which means they'll balance the pully and flywheel too), but internal balancing is better. A UR pully will be balanced from the factory, as will an aluminum flywheel. So we don't need to worry about those. Internal balancing worries about balancing the 'inside the stroke' of the crankshaft. This causes a lot less stress.

This is all VERY expensive stuff, but your engine will run like butter, allowing for the use of very lightweight parts, and being able to spin reliably at very high RPM.

Did I leave anything out Install?

[Gen1GT]

you guys think i will be close to 130whp with these mods?

AEM SRI - Seated behind the headlight instead of down behind the radiator fan
Essential Speed 4-2-1 Header ceramic coated, hi flow cat, and mid pipe, and
Magnaflow Cat-Back.

I've got my sri and catback installed, im just awaiting my header setup to come in. I wish I had money to get a dyno of my car now, and then one after installing the header, but im broke yo.It looks like IHE will get you around 115-120 from what I've seen. A stand alone with just those mods would get you 130 though.

Oh, and another comment about throttle response, since the relationship between bored TB and throttle response cam up. You want throttle response, leave the TB stock, attach your MAF directly to the TB, with your pod filter attached to the MAF. Want more throttle response? Lessen the weight of the rotating and reciprocating masses. Even more? Individual runner throttle bodies.

[PR5Matt]

It looks like IHE will get you around 115-120 from what I've seen. A stand alone with just those mods would get you 130 though.

Oh, and another comment about throttle response, since the relationship between bored TB and throttle response cam up. You want throttle response, leave the TB stock, attach your MAF directly to the TB, with your pod filter attached to the MAF. Want more throttle response? Lessen the weight of the rotating and reciprocating masses. Even more? Individual runner throttle bodies.
Actually if you want to increase throttle response, a larger t-body will do it, but it has to be sized to the engines breathing abilities (mods, airflow, etc.). For example, my Mustang kept incresing with larger and larger t-bodies as I modified it more and more. Right now it has a 1200+ CFM Accufab 85mm race-t-body on it and the throttle response is instant!

But sometimes an engine just does not need it. My fOCUS did resond to a bigger one (65mm) and it was 2.0l with light mods.

[Installshield 2]

. Even more? Individual runner throttle bodies.
That would sound amazing...

[Installshield 2]

A note on engine balancing. There are ways to minimize an unbalanced engine's nasty effects. Crankshafts are balanced to a degree from the factory, but only to a certain point, and then only to a certain degree. It's done to be effecient and cheap. Every time you change your rods, pistons, hell, even wrist pin, you affect the balance of your engine. To properly balance your crank, a shop will need to know your 'bobweight'. This is the combined weight of your piston, rod, wrist pin(clips too, if it's a floating design), rod bearings and rings. This weight is then used to set up a bobweight on the rod journal of your crank on the balancing machine, that is the EXACT same weight as your recipricating parts(although the rods rotate AND recipricate). You want to have all your internals balanced beforehand too. All your pistons should weigh the same, ALL your rods should weigh the same and should be balanced at both ends(ie all the big ends should weigh the same, and all the small ends should weigh the same) Some shops will externally balance(which means they'll balance the pully and flywheel too), but internal balancing is better. A UR pully will be balanced from the factory, as will an aluminum flywheel. So we don't need to worry about those. Internal balancing worries about balancing the 'inside the stroke' of the crankshaft. This causes a lot less stress.

This is all VERY expensive stuff, but your engine will run like butter, allowing for the use of very lightweight parts, and being able to spin reliably at very high RPM.

Did I leave anything out Install?
Not that I can see...I had a good bit to drink last evening, and some of the oscillation stuff in that other post needs cleaned up...I will work on that now...But yeah, its good you brought this up, because overall thats what everything is related to in my post...Mazda only goes so far with balancing for expense and time issues...And the "weights" at each end of the crank, help to eliminate any residual problems not directly addressed...If you do an all out full engine balancing procedure, you do not need to worry at all about using lightweight UD pullies, and flywheels....

[PR5Matt]

I wish our VICS would respond the way the dual runner system on my old SHO did. VTEC what? Those SHO's were amazing (and underrated)!!!!

[PR5Matt]

Oh yea, on the issue of throttle response, an aluminum flywheel and lightwight clutch also helped my Mustang, but of course it has enough torque that there are no adverse effects down low.

[Gen1GT]

I wish our VICS would respond the way the dual runner system on my old SHO did. VTEC what? Those SHO's were amazing (and underrated)!!!!
Not to mention one of the most beautiful LOOKING engines ever made. I want one just for the engine (cool)

PR5Matt, you're right too about throttle response. Intake diamter, exhaust diameter, header primaries etc etc, if they're too large, they'll hurt low RPM throttle response, since you're not getting the velocity you need at lower RPM. I've got 2.5" exhaust, and my off-idle throttle response is a joke. I hit the gas, and literally a half second later, you hear exhaust. But too small tubing, although good for throttle response, chokes your engine. Everything needs to be a size appropriate to the amount of air you're flowing. Of course, up to a point, there are always comprimises(ie you can't expect to run 10,000RPM, and have good idle quality and throttle response down low)

[Gen1GT]

That would sound amazing...
They make them for the BP too. You can get them brand new, or another company uses the ones off Toyota 4AGE A111s. You need full stand alone for those of course, since there is no MAF or MAP. All throttle position and load maps.

Check out this vid with the quad throttle body...

http://unsungperformance.com/vids/PacmanS2kvideo.wmv (http://unsungperformance.com/vids/PacmanS2kvideo.wmv)

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

It looks like IHE will get you around 115-120 from what I've seen. A stand alone with just those mods would get you 130 though.

Oh, and another comment about throttle response, since the relationship between bored TB and throttle response cam up. You want throttle response, leave the TB stock, attach your MAF directly to the TB, with your pod filter attached to the MAF. Want more throttle response? Lessen the weight of the rotating and reciprocating masses. Even more? Individual runner throttle bodies.

i really dont see how thats right considereing i have both stock cats, short ram, and muffler an dputting down 118whp, i would think another 12whp would be easily obtainable with a real exhaust and a header and one high flow cat

[DooMer_MP3]

i really dont see how thats right considereing i have both stock cats, short ram, and muffler an dputting down 118whp, i would think another 12whp would be easily obtainable with a real exhaust and a header and one high flow catRemember, he has a P5, which has ~10HP less stock.

Chris

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

Remember, he has a P5, which has ~10HP less stock.

Chris
oh ok, i forgot about that, carry on.

[Gen1GT]

Ok, that's cool. Your MP3 should put down almost 130whp. DO IT MAN. You've already got the edge on everyone else, lets see what that badboy can do.

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

Ok, that's cool. Your MP3 should put down almost 130whp. DO IT MAN. You've already got the edge on everyone else, lets see what that badboy can do.
numbers right now are 118/122, i wish i could try the whole n/a thing out for u guys but im boosting it this summer, unless i buy a bike then its just gonna get a header and big bore TB.

[Installshield 2]

Not to mention one of the most beautiful LOOKING engines ever made. I want one just for the engine (cool)

PR5Matt, you're right too about throttle response. Intake diamter, exhaust diameter, header primaries etc etc, if they're too large, they'll hurt low RPM throttle response, since you're not getting the velocity you need at lower RPM. I've got 2.5" exhaust, and my off-idle throttle response is a joke. I hit the gas, and literally a half second later, you hear exhaust. But too small tubing, although good for throttle response, chokes your engine. Everything needs to be a size appropriate to the amount of air you're flowing. Of course, up to a point, there are always comprimises(ie you can't expect to run 10,000RPM, and have good idle quality and throttle response down low)

hey hey hey, I said that didn't I?...can't remember...But as far as the FS, I forget the exact diameter, but its perfectly fine diameter wise for now unless you really really increase the redline...I have some CFM specs on mine for roughly 8000 rpm, and it was not strangling anything too bad...A slightly bored one would probably produce a few more peak whp, but with it tuned for highend so much to begin with; it would definately hurt lowend significantly...

Also the problem is the stock MAF is only slightly larger than the TB from what i remember...You would almost have to increase the MAF size significantly to get the tapered intake diameter I was mentioning, which will increase intake velocity extremely well...and benefit the entire revband...and if you didn't change the MAf size, you would just be strangling the intake at the MAf housing, rather than at the TB...comes out to be almost the same thing...with even more turbulence problems...

[Familia323]

id like to hear more about this Tapered Intake.... Sounds like a fun project to design..

[Installshield 2]

k dude....I gotta eat now though...I will go into it when I get back...

so just a bump for now I guess

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

what kind of gains are people seeing with 4-2-1 headers? im thinking about the obx ss header until i get my turbo on (its gonna be late july early august)

[Gen1GT]

what kind of gains are people seeing with 4-2-1 headers? im thinking about the obx ss header until i get my turbo on (its gonna be late july early august)
Are you sure you want a header, since you're going turbo?

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

Are you sure you want a header, since you're going turbo?

the obx is only i think like $200 and i could easily find a buyer for it afterwards so i figure why not.

[Familia323]

bump

[Installshield 2]

alright dude...I am having a lot of trouble finding the tech article I had saved about the tapered intake theory...so for now I will just go over some of the benefits...

The intake design centers around the filtered area at the end of the pipe being slightly larger than the TB...and the MAF being mounted inline between the two, obviously, but being the proper diameter to fall in between the end and the TB...So for example you could have a 60mm TB, a 65-70mm MAf, and a 75-80mm intake opening (and the filter ballooning out around the end)...I haven't applied much research to our intake manifold and other parts to know what diameters to use...but that is the basic setup...

The benefits sort of work in terms of intake velocity...The "choking" affect of the tapered design will rapidly increase the velocity of the incoming fresh air...This velocity increase at WOT will also create a "packing" effect that slightly increase the intake charges pressure...which delivers even more air than normal...But you could accomplish this simply with a smaller intake...The advantage is that a tapered design will allow the intake opening to be large enough to breathe properly at higher rpm (which a fixed small diameter pipe would not)...and because of the fluid dynamic issue that keep the intake charge increasing in velocity; You do not get the poor throttle response associated with a larger fixed intake diameter...You also do not get the poor intake velocity at low rpm that you get with a large diameter intake, which gives the volumetric efficiency needed for lowend torque...So you sort of win overall...

The benefits though are usually in terms of low end torque...You basically can get all the high rpm breathing you need for a high revving NA setup, and not loose nearly as much lowend torque...Sadly though, its difficult to desing properly for each app...The TB can usually be left stock, and in our case we may need to acquire a larger MAF (I don't have the specs with me...if anyone knows the diameter, please let us know)...and then taper the piping from the MAF to the cone filter larger...It just takes a lot of trial and error to get it perfect...

Now for this to be truely perfect, you need a material that will not absorb nearly as much heat, so something with a lower specific heat capacity compared to a metal...something along the lines of fiberglass would be great, but would be expensive to create...You could also build it to be "insulated" in which you could use a series of rubber or urethane spacers, that would hold an outer layer of rubber or something outside of the actual intake piping...Its very difficult to explain what I mean, but keeping heat soak at bay would substantially help with power output...

[Familia323]

I see... so now the only thing left to figure out is the correct diameter sizes..

[shinzen]

I actually am familiar with this setup that you are talking about install. For the honda/acura apps. racing sports akimoto uses the "velocity stack" system, and it works pretty damn well.

[Installshield 2]

Yeah I know of some production setups that do similar things...Honda also has access to the AEM V2 things or whatever don't they? I read a little about them doing some kind of progressive diameter stuff, but quit reading when I found out there where no plans for proteges as of now...

One thing to remember is that a lot of production designs are R&D'd very quickly, and more focus is put on them being aestheticly pleasing...Thats fine for show, but if I was trying to squeeze as much NA as possible, the intake in the end probably will look pretty plain...Most systems are made of aluminum, which is pretty decent (decent in terms of being low) as far as specific heat capacity when compared to some other metals...But a fiberglass or carbon fiber system would be much less prone to heat soak then any metal we have readily available...

Familia323, I will be playing with the diameters this summer...When my other engine gets plopped in, that will be basically be the last custom mod I will need to complete for now...I have some friends that are pretty good at hand laying carbon fiber, at least at getting the shape (haven't learned the techniques to keep it even and cool looking yet, so not expecting a hood or anything)...I will probably try that first, and try a before and after dyno when I get more cash...

[Familia323]

cool sounds like a plan.. keep me posted on the nitty gritty...before i heard about this tapered intake business I was going to use the foglight hole on the drivers side to suck up more air .. but now maybe with the two combined that might make for a powerful intake...hmmm

[Installshield 2]

Yeah if you try that let me know...I thought about it too, but never looked to close to see how hard it would be to plumb some piping down in there...I gave up when I saw the yellow overlays for the foglights (my P5 is black), and at that point I did not want to remove any of them...

[PR5Matt]

hey hey hey, I said that didn't I?...can't remember...But as far as the FS, I forget the exact diameter, but its perfectly fine diameter wise for now unless you really really increase the redline...I have some CFM specs on mine for roughly 8000 rpm, and it was not strangling anything too bad...A slightly bored one would probably produce a few more peak whp, but with it tuned for highend so much to begin with; it would definately hurt lowend significantly...

Also the problem is the stock MAF is only slightly larger than the TB from what i remember...You would almost have to increase the MAF size significantly to get the tapered intake diameter I was mentioning, which will increase intake velocity extremely well...and benefit the entire revband...and if you didn't change the MAf size, you would just be strangling the intake at the MAf housing, rather than at the TB...comes out to be almost the same thing...with even more turbulence problems...
You are right about the MAF needing to be slightly bigger than the TB, not just for flow (the tb's throttle plate usually cuts down on that in comparison to the MAF), but for good velocity.

[1sty]

id go with a magnaflow exhaust over a bosal. bosal's look ridiculous and so does the greddy, their both huge. the magnaflow has 2.25" piping and i paid $343 shipped from www.justmagnaflow.com (http://www.justmagnaflow.com/) , heres a video clip of my car.

http://www.mazsports.com/media/Mazdasports-Magnaflow_Cat_Back_Clip.wmv

i have the aem sri, magnaflow cat back and i also have the tein s-tech springs.
Bosal is garbage I have a rotted off muffler to prove that one.

[1sty]

What do you think of the first round of mods?

AWR Long tube
Unorthodox UDP
CAI
Corksport Exhaust
No cats
Cam gears

Second round:

Modified intake manifold
Wagner stg. II cams or J-Spec intake and Mazdaspeed exhaust
Corksport Throttle body
Some form of Em would be my first suggestion. I've heard talk that if you find the right mazda dealer they can retune the factory ECU to do about anything you want. This in combination with an intake, TB, full 2.25-2.5" exhuast shoudl get you in the ball park if not over it. Em is the key though.

I'd aviod the cams and also a header. Stick with the factory header its flows fine, or atleast no one has been able to prove it doesn't yet. Its the Cats that need to go. Have an exhuast made to start after the factory header with a single 2.5" high flow Cat and you should be good to go.

[PR5Matt]

I wonder if I can get my dealer to do a simple MP3 reflash?

[1sty]

You might need to be friends witha mazda tech before they'll do it. However, something like the MPI tuner might be usable aswell. The MP3 reflach added almost nothing. At most it was 2 degrees of timing. YOur going to need something a little more adjustable. I know that the AEM was under construction for NA applications but thats basicly a dead issue at this point.

THere are a few other companies developing products but they seem to be turbo oriented.

[PR5Matt]

I've heard of the MPI tuner. Wher do I get info? BTW, my wife bought her MP5 and paid cash, then I bought one (traded in the fOCUS which the got a shitload for on re-sale [and gave me a bunch for too]), plus she really flirts with the service guys. They love us and might do it.

I am thinking of going SDS some day.
http://www.sdsefi.com/

[1sty]

The vendor and most knowledgable person for the MPI tuner is MPInick.
He would be the one to talk to. His shop is Modern Perfomance in New Jersey.
Talking to him on the phone or via direct email tend to be the best meathod with him from what I am told.

[DooMer_MP3]

I'd aviod the cams and also a header. Stick with the factory header its flows fine, or atleast no one has been able to prove it doesn't yet. Its the Cats that need to go. Have an exhuast made to start after the factory header with a single 2.5" high flow Cat and you should be good to go.
Disagree with this. Even replacing just the header with a shorty (wagner, other custom jobs etc) has shown at least 7whp gains. A full header that replaces the first cat (AWR, OBX) has shown 10-11whp gains. Racing Beat also mentioned on their MP3 project page that the stock header and cat location sucked.

Also, cams are going to be important as well. The name of the game is getting your engine to breathe well, and the right set of cams will help that.

Totally agree on the EM though. I plan on doing my IHE+cams setup with an MPI tuner this summer. Should be interesting.

Chris

[flat_black]

Definitly, a HUGE difference there with a shorty header alone... My car drives totally differently with the stock manifold off of there, not as jerky, pulls a lot harder through the whole range, and actually accelerates past 5 - 5.5k, due to the longer, more open primaries.

The ECU/EMS thing is very important, though.

[batmang]

i need to get a mp3 ecu dammit.

[DooMer_MP3]

Nah, not worth it. Just get a piggyback or standalone.

Chris

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

as soon as i get the cash i'll be getting the obx header, random tech high flow cat, and a unorthodox racing underdrive pulley. i'll have it dynoed after that and see what happens if by going what other people have shown in gains for the header(10-11whp) and then even at the least 3 or 4 from the pulley i should be anywhere from 125-135 :)

[1sty]

Disagree with this. Even replacing just the header with a shorty (wagner, other custom jobs etc) has shown at least 7whp gains. A full header that replaces the first cat (AWR, OBX) has shown 10-11whp gains. Racing Beat also mentioned on their MP3 project page that the stock header and cat location sucked.Link to dynos please? I must have missed it. However I would go with a full header or nothing.



Also, cams are going to be important as well. The name of the game is getting your engine to breathe well, and the right set of cams will help that.
Agreed but I think he can aviod them for the 130 mark so long as EM is involved.

[Installshield 2]

Here Craig...Lots of different dyno's to look at...Three were an AWR header being the only modification...and the lower link it to Equinox's thread on dyno pulls...

These can all be found directly in the NA dyno library thread in this forum...

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65895

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31268

[DooMer_MP3]

Agreed but I think he can aviod them for the 130 mark so long as EM is involved.
True that. The stock fuel and timing curves seem to really be conservative (sucky).

Chris

[akhilleus]

Definately header and cams(custom). Any custom reworking of the exhaust is gonna get pricey and may not show the gains u want. The cast exhaust pieces are also heavy and really dont flow well. As i have always said, I think 130whp is very realistic w/o management. I mean i ran with a civic si all the way to 120mph ...when he started pulling away. I hadnt even installed my cam or CAI yet and the new si puts 125whp down....

[1sty]

Here Craig...Lots of different dyno's to look at...Three were an AWR header being the only modification...and the lower link it to Equinox's thread on dyno pulls...

These can all be found directly in the NA dyno library thread in this forum...

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65895

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31268
I didn't see a single dyno in those links for a short header. I saw some for the AWR and the reactive header but I was under the impression that each of those replaced the 1st factory cat.

Does a dyno exist that baselines a factory header compared to a shorty header that retains the 1st cat?

[akhilleus]

I think the shorty header is a waste unless u need to stay emissions legal. But actually there is no guarantee that the header will be emissions legal since no one has actually had testing with it on. Also unless u get the midpipe and hi-flow cat and downpipe(which i dont even know i they are available) then the gains will be minimal. I am sure they would be comparable to a hollow cat honestly. And as of yet i havent posted any wagner shorty header dyno's so those are ractive and AWR.

[blackp5ca]

As far as emmisions are concerned, I had mine done last January with the Ractive Header and a catback (and other mods...see below) and passed with flying colors. I do still have the secondary cat and relocated the second 02 behind it. The only problem you may run into would be the visual inspection..depending on how picky they get about 1 cat instead of 2..most of the shops I dont think really care...as long as they see 1 cat they are happy..

[DooMer_MP3]

Some of you might remember "Traveler" back in the day. He had come up with his own shorty header, and actually sold it to a few people, and I believe his dyno gains were 7whp.

Chris

[Familia323]

blackp5ca: do you know what your gains were from the throttle body and intake manifold? Where are you at whp wise now?

[blackp5ca]

I honestly dont know any actual #'s..the closest dyno is about 2 hours away from me..hoping to get it done soon though. I am running the stock throttle body and intake manifold..what I did do was flow match the throttle body to the intake when I installed the Outlaw engineering spacers, and as for the intake Mani itself I removed the VTCS butterflies, smoothed out the inside, bit of a mild port and polish I guess you could say (removed the lip) and thenflow matched or port matched the intake manifold to the head (again with the OE spacers) Overall...dont know if It did a lot performance wise but I did notice the intake manifold temps were reduced quite a bit..
I've been thinking about playing around with the e-manage or SAFC 2 with an o2 simulator to see what I can do with fuel and ignition timing..just waiting for some more info on here..(from the guinea pigs)
Since I dont have an actual dyno I'm going to guess I'm close to the 130whp now..but again..just a guess. I can tell you the car is a blast on the highway..pulls strong to 7000rpm

[mp5smuggler]

there are posts of the wagner shorty header i posted them. i posted them along with dynos of miker's who had factory headers along with the same bolt ons i had.... intake and muffler.

[akhilleus]

so u have wagner dyno #'s for the shorty header? can u send me the link?

[Installshield 2]

I didn't see a single dyno in those links for a short header. I saw some for the AWR and the reactive header but I was under the impression that each of those replaced the 1st factory cat.

Does a dyno exist that baselines a factory header compared to a shorty header that retains the 1st cat?

Oh I see...Didn't know that was what you were looking for...

In reality the entire front plumbing of the exhaust is to blame...The cast collector is restrictive, and merges exhaust pulses way to close to the head...The primary cat is said to be less restrictive compared to some older OBD-II systems, but where it is mounted causes extreme heat to the surrounding area...as well as forces the exhaust gas to be merged so quickly...and the stock downpipe is arguably the most restrictive single part on the entire car...period...

so a shorty cures the cast manifold problem for the most part, and helps by allowing the pulses to orient and actually begin to create a vacuum...But you still have all the damn heat from the primary cat...and you still have the stock DP...

like Doomer mentioned...the late Traveler of 2 1/2 years ago was making some shorty headers, I saw his dyno showing a little over 8whp...and the fact that the long tube headers are netting around 12whp does little to illustrate my hatred for the stock downpipe...But if you plan on any more mods, especially a full catback...the stock downpipe is one hell of a bottle neck...it is crush bent, and the ID of the 90 degree bend dips to under 2 inches...(its hard to calculate exactly, the sides of the pipe bend slightly outward, while the inner and outer portions of the bend are almost touching...its different between every one, if you get what i mean)...Unless you have some strict emission laws in your area, I would definately go with a full header if a full cat back exhaust was also a planned mod...But the shorty header definately helps some...

[Gen1GT]

I'm gonna recommend full custom exhaust for everyone. A 4-1 header into full 2 1/4" exhaust with high flow cat and resonator will give you the best results. Use this site to design your header, just remember to punch in the stats for what you want your engine to be, not what it is now. Although you won't see maximum gains now, you will when it's modded out.

http://www.headerdesign.com/index.asp

[Gen1GT]

I honestly dont know any actual #'s..the closest dyno is about 2 hours away from me..hoping to get it done soon though. I am running the stock throttle body and intake manifold..what I did do was flow match the throttle body to the intake when I installed the Outlaw engineering spacers, and as for the intake Mani itself I removed the VTCS butterflies, smoothed out the inside, bit of a mild port and polish I guess you could say (removed the lip) and thenflow matched or port matched the intake manifold to the head (again with the OE spacers) Overall...dont know if It did a lot performance wise but I did notice the intake manifold temps were reduced quite a bit..
I've been thinking about playing around with the e-manage or SAFC 2 with an o2 simulator to see what I can do with fuel and ignition timing..just waiting for some more info on here..(from the guinea pigs)
Since I dont have an actual dyno I'm going to guess I'm close to the 130whp now..but again..just a guess. I can tell you the car is a blast on the highway..pulls strong to 7000rpmHey, what's up man. I'm over in Hamilton. I'm pretty sure Essential Speed does have a dyno, and they're in Cambridge. That's less than an hour for you. Also, DL Motorsports in Burlington(where I get my work done) has a dyno, and it's only $75. He's generous with his time and resouces too.

If you think you're making 130whp, there's a lot of guys here who'd like to see that, since they've been having problems reaching that number without a computer. 120whp seems to be a wall without a computer....

[Glowspeedp5]

I forgot where I have seen it. It is in states with visual inspections on emissions. Its a dummy cat you bolt around the pipe.. It was like 25 bucks... As long as you have a cat on I think you would pass. In Maryland I seen cars blowing oil and they passed the roller test... My escort gt failed so I had coil overs and they could not get the car on the rollers so they just tested with the tail pipe and it passed..

[blackp5ca]

Thanks for the info Gen1..I was at Essential Speed on Sunday but didnt see a dyno in there anywhere..although I didnt ask Kevin if he had one...maybe I'll check with your guy Burlington soon.
Like I said..that was just a guess at hp # I may be way off..may be right on..without an actual dyno pull I wont know.

...as of now..that $75 can go towards the 02 modifier or e-manage...so it might be a while before I get to it.

[PR5Matt]

Man it is cool how good this thread is doing!!!!

[gino]

Use this site to design your header, just remember to punch in the stats for what you want your engine to be, not what it is now. Although you won't see maximum gains now, you will when it's modded out.

http://www.headerdesign.com/index.asp
Thx, bro. This should be required reading for all contemplating headers. As a result of this, I'll probably pull the ES shorty off the '5 and put in my wife's, buy the pieces based on the results I got from working the Header Design formula and see what happens with a new DP and a hi-flow cat. :D

[akhilleus]

Very cool program. One problem though was that i didnt know the exhaust valve length. But from it i did deduce that shorter primaries(29"-30"+) are better for mid/high which works for me, not too much loss of torque and such. also i thought it had a cam calculation program too, guess not. good find gen1gt

[Gen1GT]

Thanks for the info Gen1..I was at Essential Speed on Sunday but didnt see a dyno in there anywhere..although I didnt ask Kevin if he had one...maybe I'll check with your guy Burlington soon.
Like I said..that was just a guess at hp # I may be way off..may be right on..without an actual dyno pull I wont know.

...as of now..that $75 can go towards the 02 modifier or e-manage...so it might be a while before I get to it.
Honsetly, with your whack of mods, I think you're due for some dyno time. Not just to see what kind of power you're making, but to get things running in sync with each other. Mike at DL Motorsports can tell by the way it runs, how it sounds, and he can hook the wideband up to see what your A/F is. I dyno every mod, so I know where it leaves me. If I do 10 mods at once, and they only get me 5hp, I don't know which one got me power, and which parts aren't working together. One at a time means I know right off if it's working.

[Gen1GT]

Ya, that header design program is sweet eh? Most places/designers make you pay for that knowledge, or for the program.

[akhilleus]

It was interesting to see how different variables affect the header design.

[20EVOLUTION01]

I got My Header! I can't wait to put it on. Still have to weld the EGR Bung and the Second O2 sensor. Can't Wait! Looks beautiful.
(2thumbs)

[iluvmacs]

I've been playing around with the header design program for a while, and have come up with a few trends:

Primary pipe diameter changes by less than .25" thickness, which would seem to make fabrication difficult.

Primary pipe length is around 32". I assume that this is primarily for exhaust pulses, which can be reduced by a factor of 2, 3,4, etc. The difference being how many times the pulse wave travels the length of the pipe.

I just wanted to note that the only header with primary pipes anywhere near that length was the ES equal length (non-shorty), and the ractive 4-1. The AWR looks like it has 8-10 inch primaries, and narrow collectors.

Comments?

[Gen1GT]

I've been playing around with the header design program for a while, and have come up with a few trends:

Primary pipe diameter changes by less than .25" thickness, which would seem to make fabrication difficult.

Primary pipe length is around 32". I assume that this is primarily for exhaust pulses, which can be reduced by a factor of 2, 3,4, etc. The difference being how many times the pulse wave travels the length of the pipe.

I just wanted to note that the only header with primary pipes anywhere near that length was the ES equal length (non-shorty), and the ractive 4-1. The AWR looks like it has 8-10 inch primaries, and narrow collectors.

Comments?
With thickness, you're going to have to go with the closest piping to the desired thickness you want. If it calls for 1.8" Primaries, go with 1.75".

Primary length on my application is 36". This can't be reduced by factors. The only reason it's ever shorter, is because of space constraints. If you want a tuned length header, you have to go with the stated result. Remember exhaust 'pulses' travel at 340 m/s, and you want them to happen one at a time as the enter the collector, so that the negative wave travels up the other primaries in enough time to pull the exhaust charge out of the next opening exhaust valve.

Another reason most headers are shorter besides space/price, is because they want a bolt-on piece. With a custom header, there is no 'down pipe', since the collector is far enough back to almost touch the cat. In my case, I may have to move my cat back some, so I can still use a flex pipe. As it sits, if I wanted to use a flex pipe with my custom header, the collected would directly attach to the flex pipe, which would directly attach to the cat. I wouldn't even have room for fittings or brackets. Also, with imports, they try to avoid using 4-1 headers because they're stacked, rather than side by side as a 4-2-1, because of the undercar space. They know most people lower their car, and having almost 4" of stacked piping under the engine isn't always feasable. But with 4-2-1 headers you lose the 'tuned' advantage of a proper 4-1 design.

[PR5Matt]

The 4-2-1 is just the 4cyl version of the old Doug Thorley tri-Y v-8 headers. They are supposed to promote a broad torque range.

[Gen1GT]

The 4-2-1 is just the 4cyl version of the old Doug Thorley tri-Y v-8 headers. They are supposed to promote a broad torque range.
I call them Tri-Ys myself, but not everyone knows the reference. They do promote a broad torque range, and can be less peaky than a 4-1. But chances are, a well designed 4-1 can make almost as much low RPM power as a Tri-Y, but peak HP is no comparison. 4-1s make substantially more up top....

[akhilleus]

I think that the AWR primaries are longer than 10". Although i have to say that the AWR 421 has a different design than the probe/ebay 421. The AWR has the primaries merge into the side of the pipe whereas the probe/ebay has seperate collectors that merge 2-1 than 2-1. Why is there that difference? and what are the advantages of each. I will find pics to demonstrate.
here is what i mean
http://www.msprotege.com/members/akhilleus/AWRHeader1smal.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/akhilleus/hdr_probe93c_evo.jpg

[PR5Matt]

I call them Tri-Ys myself, but not everyone knows the reference. They do promote a broad torque range, and can be less peaky than a 4-1. But chances are, a well designed 4-1 can make almost as much low RPM power as a Tri-Y, but peak HP is no comparison. 4-1s make substantially more up top....
I agree. You should see my beautiful 1 3/4"-1 7/8" step primary ceramic coated Bassini long tubes for the 'Stang. I can't wait to put 'em in! I just got them 3 weeks ago. Much better than the Mac 1 3/4" headers.

[Replica]

I really hate 2 piece headers....

[PR5Matt]

I am actually glad that my Mustang headers are individual slip-fit tubes. They are a pain in the ass to install otherwise.

[iluvmacs]

That probe header seems nice, and the price is nice too. What kind of modification needs to be done for the egr?

[akhilleus]

it needs to be moved...also u need a new midpipe to the 2nd cat...hangers need to be changed too. tonkabui has one. However what are the advantages power/powerband/throttle response wise between the AWR and probe

[20EVOLUTION01]

I bought the EVOVECTOR Header on EBAY on Tuesday and arrived just this Saturday. As a visual I can see that of course the EGR valve bung will have to be moved, and a second O2 sensor bung will have to be added. Also probably the hangers will be moved as well or even removed and use the stock hangers. I am going to buy a High Flow Cat to stay sort of compliant in case I move to another city. I will try to make a how to on this header with pics. I need to charge the battery to my Digi Cam. I am planning on installing it this Wed or Thurs. I'll let you guys know.
(2thumbs)

[iluvmacs]

Let us know if its more cost effective than getting the AWR. I'd rather support a protege parts manufacturer, but not for twice the cost. That is, unless the probe header doesn't perform well, or if it's too costly to get all the hangers and bungs rewelded.

[20EVOLUTION01]

Well for me it might be cuz I plan on doing most of it myself. I think the header EGR bung I will leave it to the Experienced. But evrything else should be a breeze, for me that is.

[PR5Matt]

So how is everyone doing with their projects?

[jomoyo069]

lol u ask 2 years later

[CulRidr]

Alright so I am bringing this thread back from the dead because it is one of the best ones I've found in the NA section, and wanted to add some knowledge to it (via asking questions and having people chime in) as opposed to just starting another thread, especially since my goals for the car are modest and fit well with the discussions that have gone on in this thread. Unfortunately it seems as though a few of the guru's haven't been around in the last few months, but hopefully the ones still remaining can still help me with my question.

Here goes: I'm in the midst of my modding, and have come accross a great thread for some much cheaper then usual parts: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123683481.
Now I am going to get the full set of pulleys because it is such an insane deal, however I am undecided about the adjustable cam gears. I'll first list what I have mods-wise and you can guys can chime in on whether it would be worth it (considering the price, otherwise I wouldn't give it a second thought) or not.

- I have an MP3, so I already have the MP3 ECU, and the VTCS removal
- RB catback (the 2.375" ID aftermarket one)
- custom j-midpipe with a high flow cat (getting made next spring)
- Wagner shorty header (before someone flames me for not putting on a header, there are fairly strict emissions laws where I live)
- CAI
- the aforementioned pulleys
- custom ground kit (yes I know I don't get power from it)

My question is: would getting a pair (or only 1, and explain how one would be better then other; exhaust VS intake) of adjustable camgears using STOCK cams bring on any advantage, or would the ~200$ (or 100$ if I only get one) be better spent elsewhere before I start investing in this type of fine tuning?
I know many of you will say to get a jdm intake cam, but I've been told many times (notably by Brian MP5T whom I know personally) that considering the work that should be done to shims, and the added stress to the valvetrain, it is not the wisest idea for someone who wants to mod without breaking the bank.
Also, as many true NA modders will say; there is no point in buying a cam before you are done with the majority of your build since it will be the heart of your engine, due to the effect it has on the engine's breathing. They'll probably also say that I should get one custom ground...which will probably a plan of mine in the future.

So again, my question is should I buy the camgears (and could someone please point me towards a good thread which could help with tuning as I have yet to find a good one with useful info for using cam gears with stock cams) or invest that money elsewhere where it would be used more wisely, such as investing in a piggyback, like the SS AFC.

BTW, some of you may have other suggestions where I could spend this amount of money other then on performance engine parts, so before you make suggestions of parts I could put on the car that I already have, here are the other (present and short term) mods on my car:
- custom filled motor mounts with an AWR front mount
- AXR clunk fix
- beefier endlinks (waiting on Canadian group buy for Hardrace products)
- front lower tie bar (in the mail :))
- AWR trailing links (local buy in the spring)
- GC coilover sleeves
- TWM SS with bushings
- slotted/x-drilled rotors
- KVR performance brake pads
- SS brake/clutch lines (going on in the spring)

All constructive information/suggestions will be most welcome.
Thanks a lot for reading this rather long post, and bring on the good advice :)

[LordWorm]

It really depends on what your goals are.

Even the JDM cam won't cut it for massive power gains (i had the JDM intake, one of the advantages of having the australian version of the car - the thing just wont breathe at high RPM...no matter what you do).

Our stock heads are not flow monsters, and to get them to breathe, you are going to NEED some sort of cam work. Cam gears MAY yield some result but you'd be better off saving your pennies and getting a regrind done on your cams, or getting some aftermarket cams happening. Cams are going to allow you to get alot more potential out of the motor.

I'm running some VERY wild cams (well, wild when compared to what I had...still mild in the grand scheme of things) and theres nothing wrong with the valve train, even at the stretched redline I run.

If you want to get 130whp, its not THAT hard, but you'll need EMS to get you there i fear. I'd be putting your money in that direction. Twilightprotege had around 140hp without touching internals...his mods (performance wise) of note are:

Custom camshafts
AWR header
Port and polished head (matched and CC'd combustion chambers as well)
Port matched intake manifold
Light weight flywheel
light weight UDP
and critically - Microtech engine management.

Given the completely rubbish tune Mazda provide us, an EMS is going to unlock the single largest chunk of power you are going to get without touching the internals of the motor. I've got no idea of the dyno figures for my set up (because i havn't dyno'd it) but Twilight suggested that he gained somewhere in the order of 6 to 8 horsepower over the entire curve....not just at peak. This equates to a massive increase in power, even if the peak doesn't go up overly that much.

In short - don't stick to the stock cams. Don't even CONSIDER the JDM cams if you are serious about making all motor power. Talk to a cam shop, and get something made up (and i'm telling you right now, it'll cost you quite a bit). Altenatively protege garage lists some integral race cams on their site....have a chat to ken and see what he says about them.

JDM cams are fine for mild turbo applications - but will suck the big one if you trying to push air through without assistance.

[CulRidr]

Some very good points here. Lots to make me think about.
I guess this brings me to ask 3 more questions:
1. How much gain can there be from regrinding the stock cams? It seems as though taking anything off would make them worse no? I'm far from knowledgeable when it comes to cams, it just seems as though there wouldn't be much improvement possible.
2. How much more can I gain with a full EMS over a good piggyback?
3. Is there a BIG difference between a piggyback which only controls VS one who also controls timing (please remember I do have the MP3 ECU (which of course came with the car) which is better then the stock one))?

[Tom03es]

In short - don't stick to the stock cams. Don't even CONSIDER the JDM cams if you are serious about making all motor power.

By that, do you mean the J-SPEC 2.0 FS-ZE intake camshaft from Corksport?

Thanks.

[CulRidr]

I'm pretty sure that's what he's referring to yes...it does give gains, but not enough apparently if you want big power...

[Tom03es]

But they'd at least be good for improving some power, right? I'm not looking to make huge power but would like to spice things up without going turbo.

[CulRidr]

There's a zillion threads talking about those cams...search it up and you can find dozens of people's thoughts/experience with them.

[LordWorm]

The JDM/J-Spec cams will give you some sort of gain, but they won't support what you want for your goal. Bigger custom cams will make getting some numbers out a lot easier (spend a lot in that department, you have to spend less everywhere else....as opposed to cheaping out on the cams, and then having to spend masses of cash everywhere else to make cams that are not up to scratch work for you).

In answer to grinding making the cams smaller, yes, grinding does...but it changes the profile, and lowers the base circle. To compensate for the smaller base circle, you shim up to the new cams, which gives you the increased lift the new profile offers. Doing this, however, will likely put undue strain on the valve train, due to the increased weight being pushed down on the valve springs by the shims.

Best bet for cheapness is to get blanks from mazda, and have them ground. As for specs, go to a cam shop and discuss your requirements - they have DECADES of experience with cams, and will be able to offer you the best solution for your needs.

[LordWorm]

2. How much more can I gain with a full EMS over a good piggyback?
3. Is there a BIG difference between a piggyback which only controls VS one who also controls timing (please remember I do have the MP3 ECU (which of course came with the car) which is better then the stock one))?


Depending on the piggy back, you should THEORETICALLY get the same gains between a piggy back and a stand alone. Stand alone will give you other options, and increased flexibility though. I believe that some piggy backs are limited in what they can enable the stock ecu to do.

Fuel vs Fuel and timing....massive difference. Huge. FSDE responds very well to increased timing advance.

[CulRidr]

Do you know of/have any contacts to get blanks from Mazda? I figure getting them through a stealership would get rather expensive. Also, what should I have in mind budget wise to get a set custom ground? I'd rather not get over my head if possible. The biggest thing for me - as you have stated - is that I don't want to play around with my valve train...which is why I'd rather have a longer duration then higher lift. Also, I'll have to really start talking to people who KNOW about engine stuff (like Brian MP5T who keeps preaching to me that I can't just drop cams in the car without thinking about the shims in there) to see what I have to look out for.
On the 2nd subject, do you have any idea of what the best piggyback is for the money? I've heard good stuff about the MPI...It seems pretty good for what it is, especially bang for your buck...

[LordWorm]

Do you know of/have any contacts to get blanks from Mazda? I figure getting them through a stealership would get rather expensive. Also, what should I have in mind budget wise to get a set custom ground? I'd rather not get over my head if possible. The biggest thing for me - as you have stated - is that I don't want to play around with my valve train...which is why I'd rather have a longer duration then higher lift. Also, I'll have to really start talking to people who KNOW about engine stuff (like Brian MP5T who keeps preaching to me that I can't just drop cams in the car without thinking about the shims in there) to see what I have to look out for.
On the 2nd subject, do you have any idea of what the best piggyback is for the money? I've heard good stuff about the MPI...It seems pretty good for what it is, especially bang for your buck...

AWR used to stock blanks..not sure about these days though.

You could also ask some of the AVs, protege garage i believe sells OEM parts so they can get into the Mazda supply chain.

Cost..no idea what it'll cost in america. In oz, to machine a blank cam you'd be looking at about $300 AUD.... then the cost of the shims. Full blown custom billet blank you'd be up for $900 AUD....give or take.

Best piggy back? i have never played with a piggy back on these motors. Go with what is known to work, and what has the best support out there (be that by the community or hte manufacturer). Or get a stand alone Microtech and don't look back :)

[CulRidr]

So roughly the same price as getting a set of JDMs, except that they will be to MY specs...that's not that bad at all. Not sure I can get that kind of a deal up here in Canada, but I'll definitely look around this winter...I won't have the cash for sticks or a piggy-back until next year...

[LordWorm]

So roughly the same price as getting a set of JDMs, except that they will be to MY specs...that's not that bad at all. Not sure I can get that kind of a deal up here in Canada, but I'll definitely look around this winter...I won't have the cash for sticks or a piggy-back until next year...

Yeah find a cam place that has lots of experience in DOHC 4 bangers and talk to them... you really need to be comfortable with their knowledge....

[CulRidr]

Couldn't agree more...I have months to do my research so I'm in no hurry.
BTW, just wondering if you have any info regarding this: http://www.awrracing.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=146
Is it something that has been discussed before? Or is this simply the JDM camshaft that everyone has always talked about? I'm not familiar with that specific cam...

[LordWorm]

Couldn't agree more...I have months to do my research so I'm in no hurry.
BTW, just wondering if you have any info regarding this: http://www.awrracing.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=146
Is it something that has been discussed before? Or is this simply the JDM camshaft that everyone has always talked about? I'm not familiar with that specific cam...

thats the JDM cam