What EMS will be the best for N/A p5

[ogsp5]

Just want a discussion on what EMS will work on the p5. I have heard of the AEM, but will the Haltech or MPI work on our non boosted cars. Also the Wolf sold by Essentialspeed this product comes from Australia . Maybe our mod from down under can check it out. Wolf is in Victoria. Please no flame wars.

[shinzen]

I know the haltech will, as will the microtech(although perhaps problems with the factory tach)- I have been curious about the mpi unit on N/A as well as the emanage- it would seem that the emanage is now working on the speeds- and it will allow us to do A/F and timing- really smoothed out orangezoom's dyno... and for $270, the least expensive unit to get, although obviously the most limited..

[Paul Ruebens]

I guess you can really only judge by which EMS actually turns out a NA dyno. After searching around the only one I can find was the AEM.

[DooMer_MP3]

The MPI Tuner should do the trick. You want fuel and timing control, it does it. There ya go. He hasn't specifically had anybody try it on an NA Protege yet, but it should work just fine. Should be relatively cheap, as you shouldn't need the turbo module either. The software is fantastic too. Check out igradsil's clip of him tuning it. Looks pretty sweet.

Chris

[shinzen]

it definitely looks pretty sweet, but it's quite a bit more expensive- anybody wanna guinea pig the two systems on a dyno?

[Gen1GT]

Any complete stand-alone with run the P5, EMS, Haltech, Motec, Wolf, Link etc etc. As far as piggy backs, it looks like E-Manage is the next best thing

[DooMer_MP3]

What about ignition with the Greddy, though? Greddy specifically told someone here a year or so back that it would not work on our ignition system. Search for the reason why. But Terry of SPOOL turbos (before they closed) might have gotten it to work with modification. I'm pretty sure its not a drop-in piggyback though. You'll fry coils without a mod.

Chris

[ogsp5]

The two items that Essential speed carries are the Greddy E01-N/A programmer and the Wolf 3Dv4 kit which is expandable to full stand alone.

[shinzen]

The emanage requires an o2 signal modifier to work properly with our cars- at least according to what orangezoom is experiencing.

[Gen1GT]

Man, it must suck ass to tune with OBDII. E-Manage is going to run my injectors, and my stock ignition is going to carry the load there, since I can manually control initial advance(don't have the versatility, but it should do). I'm going to need the injector harness and MAP sensor, all said and done, $1400 installed and tuned.

[Installshield 2]

Yeah if Andy completes the AEM (he just mentioned he would in another thread) it will drop right in for $1475 or so...Full standalone...full control over everything...Windows based software...AND learning...the learning part is the most important for me, because I need to be able to install it and at least have the car running to get me to a dyno...but the nicest thing about the learning ability allows you to run high load closed loop, which creates a less peaky engine, but more streetable...Thats the one I am waiting on for now...

Any piggy back will not have the accuracy needed for a crazy NA engine (at least with the OBD II 3rd gen cars)..If you are pushing significant compression increases, and running extremely high rpm...the resolution of the piggy backs will have met its match...

[Gen1GT]

Ya, if I was smart, I'd scratch the piggyback idea altogether. First, I get to lose my restrictive AFM. Secondly, full ignition control, and I could get a Link set-up from Flyin-Miata. I just don't want to lose any drivability whatsoever. Plus, it remains to be seen if my distributor can handle high-rpm.

[DooMer_MP3]

Yeah if Andy completes the AEM (he just mentioned he would in another thread) it will drop right in for $1475 or so...Full standalone...full control over everything...Windows based software...AND learning...the learning part is the most important for me, because I need to be able to install it and at least have the car running to get me to a dyno...but the nicest thing about the learning ability allows you to run high load closed loop, which creates a less peaky engine, but more streetable...Thats the one I am waiting on for now...

Any piggy back will not have the accuracy needed for a crazy NA engine (at least with the OBD II 3rd gen cars)..If you are pushing significant compression increases, and running extremely high rpm...the resolution of the piggy backs will have met its match...
I think you'll be waiting for quite some time. The AEM out right now isn't setup for standalone operation yet. Its going to take time for Andy to clear out orders, and get back to the AEM project and into standalone mode, if ever. As it is now, who knows how it all works. Everything that has been posted on it, was from perfworks, so who knows what kind of smoke he's been blowing up everybody's ass on how it all works. Wagner has rarely posted on it, other than to say that its out etc. So you'll have to see how far along it is from Andy, and what exactly its controlling right now.

I know you didn't appreciate MPNick's lack of info back in the day, but I've talked to the guy, and he knows his shit. And then you've got his ~15-20 happy customers running the MPI tuner under boost. I know if I try it with NA, I'll have damn good customer support, and some tips from a knowledgeable guy.

Chris

[shinzen]

Well the standalone is definitely the better way to go, no questions asked, but...(I knew you were waiting for that) without some mad bank, it's good to know that there are alternatives. And MPNick definitely has a good product on the market, there are a lot of turbo guys that are very happy with that setup, but no one has tried it yet with N/A. I hope that the AEM comes out fully setup, but with the issues that have happened in recent history, they are pretty behind, but that would be the ultimate setup, both in control and in ease of use..

[orangezoom]

I love the emanage, but that wolf is a great company if essential gets that thing going it should be awesome.

[shinzen]

Hey zoom- can you confirm the timing/ignition control for us?

[orangezoom]

Hey zoom- can you confirm the timing/ignition control for us?
What do you mean confirm what would you like?

[shinzen]

What do you mean confirm what would you like?What kind of control do you have- can you advance/retard the timing degree by degree? Obviously you have A/F control- it's at 16 rpm points? I would also love to see a screen shot of the interface running on your speed!!

Thanks man

[thewrench]

zoom, if I'm not incorrect, the voltage clamp you're using is only active when you hit boost due to the pressure switch, right?
So, how could that solution help us NA guys, also with that said, if it is only active in boost, does that mean we can run an emanage without the clamp. How does that get around the ECU relearning and compensating?

[akhilleus]

The AEM has been running on a turbo mp3 for weeks. Although whether it will ever be available again is debatable. Personally i dont know if andy knows how to tune it w/o nick. the emanage is very interesting. I will eventually want something for light ignition control and some leaning of the af mixture. Also ...which is a problem for NA...emissions I think that no matter what i do i will want a piggy that could make my vehicle emissions legal. So far the only one that can do that is the MPI tuner.... which i have actually considered...even if i did say otherwise. If the emanage could do this i would be thrilled... also where would u find a greddy tech and how much would tuning and install cost?

[shinzen]

I think there in lies the problems with the emanage- but, basically if you lean out the mixture to say 11:1 and advance the timing by 10 degrees, essentially you have done what the mp3 ecu does. At that point it is fine tuning on the dyno to really get what you need out of it.

Wrench- it is my understanding that the o2 sensor modifier makes the ecu see the conditions as stock, running rich- so when the emanage leans out the mix, the ecu is still thinking everything is fine- although I am probably wrong on that.

[thewrench]

But if you read through orangezoom's ( i think) emanage thread eventually it is stated that the modifier is only active under positive pressure, ie boost. That's what I don't understand, why wouldn't the ECU relearn when the modifier wasn't working. That goes back to the issues turboge was having. ....or else, it wasn't an issue all along as long as there was no boost. (seems wrong) There also isn't any addressing of going open/closed loop, which is an issue for us.

Edit: I think that since the MSP guys are mainly looking to add fuel under boost, they are worried the most about the ECU not correcting their adjustments under boost, but we are looking at fine tuning fuel and adding timing advance, and so far I'm not convinced the ECU won't correct those adjustments, since there's no boost "switch". This is mainly talking about the emanage, but it really hasn't been proven with the MPITuner either, as there isn't an NA car running it yet.

[shinzen]

You have a good point there wrench- I was assuming that the switch was happening when we went into closed loop mode... since that seems to be when our 'puters dump fuel like it's going out of style. I guess until we have an N/A guy trying it we won't know for sure. It does seem wrong that it wouldn't have had any issues w/o boost or a lot more people would have gone this route.

[thewrench]

Let me first state that I in no way claim to be any kind of know-it-all, but I did follow turboge's emanage thread very closely. I really want to be able to advance the timing, and it seemed the emanage would have been a good cheap answer. But he obviously failed to get satisfactory results, and as far as the open/closed loop switch, the idea I got was that it was not a set or definite threshold. It varied with rpm, load and boost. Now maybe I'm wrong, and it changed with load/rpm, but only under boost. If that's the case, then the MSPer's problem is solved. Either way, I don't see how it could work for us, but PLEASE, PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG! :D About the best solution I can see right now, aside from the AEM vaporware, would be the MPITuner with a J & S. But. a while back, I tried to ask MPNick about how it controlled timing to make sure it would work NA, and I always got the typical ambiguous answer. Maybe someone should try again. Before I plunk my money down I have to be assured that it will work and hold settings on an NA car. Obviously any stand-alone would work, too. Sorry for the book.

[shinzen]

^^ hmm... I was following that thread pretty closely myself, we need the shop that was working with him to help us out and explain how it was working. Even if it's not working perfectly, perhaps it could be adapted to our purpose. Without the AEM coming down the pike, I would say the MPI tuner or go with the E6 or Microtech. It would seem like a bit of overkill to lay out the money for the J&S and the MPI unit, when the Microtech can be had for under 1k. If I am wrong and the MPI can do the key components (timing, A/F) then it may be the only answer that won't cost us our first born.

[thewrench]

Does the Microtech have an anti-knock sensor (or use the stock one)? That was the beauty of the AEM. I'm also following the Unichip thread, mainly because there's a Unichip tuner very close to me.

[DooMer_MP3]

Here is what the voltage clamp does. In an FI application, you want to add fuel at boost. However, you can be at low boost (1psi) and in closed loop (aka not flooring it), where the ECU will read the MAF and other sensors, put in the correct amount of fuel, and then use the O2 sensor to see if it is running the proper mixture and fine tune. The voltage clamp "clamps" the O2 sensor signal in closed loop so that it doesn't show that it is actually running richer than it should due to additional fuel added by an FMU, or piggyback. Otherwise, the ECU would say "holy shit, the O2 sensor says I'm way rich, time to pull fuel"... it pulls the fuel that the FMU/piggyback originally added... chaos.

Remember, closed loop is what is used for light load, and cruising. It takes inputs, adds fuel, then takes inputs elsewhere (exhaust O2 signal) to see how well it did, and adjusts if need be... over and over... a closed loop.

Open loop simply reads the MAF and a few other signals, looks at a pre-defined lookup, and spits the fuel in without caring about the results.

Chris

[Gen1GT]

Has anyone done any wideband A/F tuning on the dyno? If the FS computer is running 11:1 or richer stock(this is EXTREMELY RICH), than you should have a lot of room under the umbrella for mods before needed fuel control. Under what circumstance is the stock ECU limiting power? Timing? If you can increase airflow, while maintaining current fuel maps, there should be lots of power to be had there.....

I know I'm probably missing somethng here, and I wish I knew more about OBDII....

[thewrench]

Doomer- That;s the normal use, but what orangezoom is doing is using an "O2 siganal modifier" in conjunction with a pressure switch on the MAF. People in that thread are calling it a voltage clamp, and it seems to be the same. Anyway here's the thread, if you haven't seen it.

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65802

EDIT: OK, so it was late, and I obviously wasn't thinking straight. I DO realize the O2 modifier is on the 1st O2 sensor, and I'm not sure where the pressure sensor is located, but I guess my point was it only is active under boost.

[thewrench]

Gen1- yes it's way rich, and yes there's plenty of room, but adding enough air to make up for it would ruin the low end, I'd rather advance the timing as much as possible, with moderate gains in airflow. Plus, I really have no plans for HC pistons.

BTW-the MP3 makes a lot of it's gains by advanced timing.

[ogsp5]

These are things that I would look for the EMS to do for our cars.
1) Cost
2) Ability to control fuel and timing
3) Ease of install and tunning
4) to be upgraded with lap top
5) Can adjust maps or switch when driving.
I also posted on the Engine Man, section of this furam and did not get much response, I wonder why?

[shinzen]

Bear in mind the mp3 also uses a slightly different intake manifold and has the axle back system from the factory. Between that and the ecu advancing the timing and leaning the mix out a bit is where the extra 10hp comes from.

[roni]

Just want a discussion on what EMS will work on the p5. I have heard of the AEM, but will the Haltech or MPI work on our non boosted cars. Also the Wolf sold by Essentialspeed this product comes from Australia . Maybe our mod from down under can check it out. Wolf is in Victoria. Please no flame wars.

The AEM has been running on a turbo mp3 for weeks. Although whether it will ever be available again is debatable. Personally i dont know if andy knows how to tune it w/o nick. the emanage is very interesting. I will eventually want something for light ignition control and some leaning of the af mixture. Also ...which is a problem for NA...emissions I think that no matter what i do i will want a piggy that could make my vehicle emissions legal. So far the only one that can do that is the MPI tuner.... which i have actually considered...even if i did say otherwise. If the emanage could do this i would be thrilled... also where would u find a greddy tech and how much would tuning and install cost?
I prefer to limit my comments to my personal experience. I know there can be a lot of confusion about engine management systems around here.

We all know that I have the AEM on my turbo MP3, and it works great. But my car is the only protege that has the AEM installed. I am just here to provide info on my positive experience with it, not to help sell it. Andy at Wagner Motorsports has a lot of knowledge about setting up the AEM, but I don't know how long it takes to get the AEM unit at the moment.

The AEM EMS is wonderful. I drove the N/A Protege5 with the AEM installed prior to purchasing my own AEM EMS. I was quite surprised by the power it had and the ridiculously smooth power curve.

I don't know how many other engine management systems have been used on a N/A protege and what successes they have had.

Here's a dyno sheet of the N/A p5 I got to drive.
http://www.wagnermotorsports.net/projects/43/dyno%20mp5%20aem%20002.jpg

[DooMer_MP3]

I have an MP3, and as far as I know, the ECU's only changes are from advancing the timing. I seriously doubt Mazda would advance timing AND lean up the mixture, because they have their conservative maps, and their idea of what is safe, and what will cost them the least amount of money in damaged engines. I'm sure the changes to the MP3 ECU were very minimal. The fact is, the MP3 has 10 extra HP than a stock 2.0L FS-DE (P5, ES, LX etc). It has a slightly less restrictive axle-back exhaust, a different intake manifold (no VTCS which is a bit restrictive), and advanced timing.

Chris

[ogsp5]

So far it has been a fair dicussion on options Thanks. But what I find strange is that no one picked up this discussion on the Eng. Man section of this furam. Except for 2 members. Maybe members might feel only boosted cars need EMS. Strange!!!!

[thewrench]

I think it's mainly because no one, other than the SWC cars, have run an ems on an NA car. At least that I've ever seen or heard of. With the exception of course of the AEM P5 that Wagner and Perf were working on, assuming that's true. And because of Roni's posts, I do. I think any stand-alone, whether parallel or straight-up, would work fine. That would just be a choice of set-up and software preference. The real question is which, if any, of the piggybacks would work. MPNick says his will, but it hasn't actually been done.

[shinzen]

Well the thing is, we know that on the turbo cars that the MPI tuner definitely works to control boost, A/F, and timing- the latter two being what we are concerned with- Since that's the case on boosted cars, it would only make sense that it should be able to do the same on our N/A cars.. But time will tell.

[akhilleus]

I think the MPI would work fine actually. When it first came out MPnick seemed interested in running it on an NA vehicle. ALso since it can now add fuel through stock injectors and the timing has been refined, supposdly there were problems with the crank sensor originally, it would be perfect. And as i have already mentioned any moderate NA buildup will almost require an ems just to pass emissions. The problem with the AEM is that once u install it the OBDII port will no longer work and that could fail u on the spot. Supposdly u would have to remove the unit to get inspected which imo is dumb.

[Installshield 2]

IT is dumb ackhilleus, but at least you have the option to do so...with a normal wired in standalone...You can't even attempt that...

Just like the Wrench mentioned...We do not require half of the control that a lot of standalones offer...We don't need variable valve timing control, or crazy intake plenum movements (the VICS, is a simple on off system...that can be easily compensated for)...In the end it mostly comes down to userfriendlyness...The AEM seems to be the most promising system that offers target A/F ratio "learning" for the cheapest price...A LOT of other systems have this, but usually start north of 2 grand...Some less user friendly standalones can be had for cheaper...And they will give you the exact same output numbers when tuned correctly (remember you still have the same engine, just a different computer telling it whats up)...Just some systems have great easy to use software, and are easy to get up and running safely without the need for 15 dyno pulls...On the other hand, some are not...

[blackp5ca]

Bump...this has been a great read...all three pages worth, keep the info coming guys.

[SpicyMchaggis]

the MPi piggyback is by far the best way to go for us 3rd gens..easy to pass emissions and full control on fuel and timing..good price too.

[ogsp5]

Sent an e-mail to kevin to get some info on the wolf 3dv4. Since he is in Canada he cannot sell the unit to me due to I have to use a local dealer here in the states. I will let you know what happens for what I understand he (Kevin) has used this unit on the p5

[ogsp5]

I have e-mailed Jaun, Kevin and even Beau ( I think that his name ) from MAM. And up to now no response. The only meassage I got was we will let you know from Juan, you have to check a local dealer in the states from Kevin and nothing from MAM. If these companies want to make some money then lets us know what they can do for us P5 DRIVERS that want to stay N/A. There is a local dealer for Haltech maybe I can get some info from him and pass it on. Just a little annoyed.

[Gen1GT]

You guys should get ahold of Flyin Miata too. I know they don't sell the turbo kits anymore, but you know they have experience with the FS and ECUs......

[acidbbg]

Even though i am boosted. The mpi tuner permits me to fuel & timing when i am not boosting. How do i know it is working..Well i check my a/f guage. And have talked to many other users of the mpi tuner..and they have confirmed that it does infact permit them to control their stock injectors & stock coil packs to adjust fuel & timing anywhere in the power band!

There is a dyno day happening this weekend. Everyone is invited to come!

Chas

[Silver Streaker]

the MPi piggyback is by far the best way to go for us 3rd gens..easy to pass emissions and full control on fuel and timing..good price too.

how do we go about getting this nifty little mpi piggyback and how much does it usually set ya back?

[acidbbg]

Contact nick At modernperformance

mp23cc@aol.com

not sure on the price..but i think it's around $700

Chas

[ogsp5]

Contact nick At modernperformance

mp23cc@aol.com

not sure on the price..but i think it's around $700

ChasThere was a post a few weeks ago that Nick was looking for a test car to a run N/A project. Has anyone heard if he was sucessfull(dunno)

[Fade]

Geeee I don't know if he was sucessfull. (sssh)

[acidbbg]

There was a post a few weeks ago that Nick was looking for a test car to a run N/A project. Has anyone heard if he was sucessfull(dunno)
I believe he might still be looking. He wanted me to do it..and i was like(screwy)

-chas

[akhilleus]

MPI all the way!!!! would someone be a test mule already

[FunkyBuddha]

Hmm...I'm going the Greddy route in a month or two here. Just savin up 1200CAD to pay for the unit/install/harnesses/tuning time. This has been a great read. I think the Greddy will be a satisfactory unit when all is said and done.

[scorch70]

Hmm...I'm going the Greddy route in a month or two here. Just savin up 1200CAD to pay for the unit/install/harnesses/tuning time. This has been a great read. I think the Greddy will be a satisfactory unit when all is said and done.
Cool. Keep us up to date FunkyBuddha. I will be needing engine management sometime next spring, when my built engine is done.



scorch70

[p5sundevil]

honestly Id prefer to go with haltec over the mpi, but nick is willing to tune the mpi for NA so that is a definate plus. will keep checkin in

[Gen1GT]

I'm getting E-Manage too.....

[Greensleeper]

E-Manage seem to be the way to go for a moderate NA project like I will do...

[Gen1GT]

Actually, I keep changing my mind. Now I'm leaning toward full stand-alone, with either the Link or Haltech E6X.....I want to be able to run IRTBs one day

[FunkyBuddha]

Isn't the e6x a piggyback too?

[Fear]

the haltech units are awesome, but the TEC III is the way to go. i previously ran the MoTec M4, and it was a pain in the balls. basically, anything will work, so get whatever you have the money for.

[ogsp5]

Haltec wood be nice, but I e-mail Juan and there are no maps for a N/A p5. This was a few months ago. Maybe he has something worked out.(shrug)

[Fear]

why depend on someone to make maps for you? thats what dyno tuning is for.

[p5sundevil]

no, i dont think juan would take the time to do NA maps for his ecu's, he just has too much FI demand to keep up with to even have the time to do that if he even wanted to. That is the unfortunate part...

and I dont believe the e6x is a piggyback, but i could be wrong, it yhough the F series was fuel only pigguback style and the E series was fuel and timing standalone style...but can be run in parallel if the desire arises.

[Installshield 2]

the E6X replaced the E6K last year...it has full standalone capability...but still has that same dreaded DOS like software...

No NA FS will ever need the capability of TEC-III's...if you are into spending $3500 for an ECU that is no easier to tune, actually has less stock sensor support, and has about 400 features that will never apply to you...be my guest...we don't even need switching for cam control or anything like that...we need just one solenoid kicker for the VICS...and then just triggering and air metering...the stock ECU can be run in parallel to handle everything else...but that is entirely different than a piggyback setup...

just like YellowSpec said...any decent standalone will yeild the same numbers...you still have the same engine...just using a different product to control it...as long as it is programmed correctly, you will have the same numbers give or take a hp or so...But especially with NA cars, we don't need all kinds of fancy crap...we don't even need learning capabilities if you have access to a dyno...

It appears I will be going with a LinkPlus...that I may just run with a new sequential MSD ignition coil set...to get rid of the the wasted spark setup...but mostly because as of now there is no way to determine the exact latency of our stock coils...there is but its time consuming and not really worth it in my opinion...But the Link will be about 1grand out the door, with everything I need to make a pnp harness...it has way more resolution than I will ever need...and all kinds of switching and stuff for other cars if I would decide to use it in something else down the road...

[Gen1GT]

Yes, the E6X is a full stand-alone, and I'll need it's full control capabilities when I get Individual Throttle Bodies. It's controlled by bars and graphs, and eliminates the input of numbers. The main reason I'm choosing it, is because there's a local installer/tuner, and it's recommended as one of the units to use by TWM(IRTB manufacturer).

I used to be like, "well maybe one day I'll get quads." But now I'm like, "I can't live without them." There's a Miata guy who just installed the RS Aizawa in his otherwise completely stock 1.8, and got 16whp. Some of that may have been from the stand-alone, but there's not much power to be made with a stand-alone on a stock engine. Plus, my car MUST sound like this...

http://www3.telus.net/terence_chu/coolstuff/irtb.mpeg

[ogsp5]

Has anyone heard of Hydra ems? I found it on google they do systems for a lot of cars ( ie Evo 8 and STI ). They state that they are developing a unit for the P5 ( plug and play ) for around $1350. The page also says what their units can do for cars. Alot of tech imfo. If someone can understand what the system does let us know if it would be a good alternative.

[charles]

There is Windows software for the E6X called HalWin.

I kind of like the Wold3d EMS... gotta save up though.

[cewyattjr]

Has anyone heard of Hydra ems? I found it on google they do systems for a lot of cars ( ie Evo 8 and STI ). They state that they are developing a unit for the P5 ( plug and play ) for around $1350. The page also says what their units can do for cars. Alot of tech imfo. If someone can understand what the system does let us know if it would be a good alternative.

A buddy of mine runs this on his turbo Impreza and loves it. I would recommend that people email them and ask about availability.

The page link is here (http://www.hydraems.com/ems-index.html#Applications).

-Chuck