Why you prefer NA over Boost...

[Gen1GT]

I'd like to hear why everyone in this section prefers NA over boost. I talk with other people about it, and they think I'm crazy that I'd rather have a 150whp NA car, than a 250whp turbo car. Here's my reasons

throttle response, both on and off throttle
the sound..you can't beat actually being able to hear valve events
linear power delivery
drivability
engine braking


I don't want to hear from people who just 'can't afford a turbo'. I want to hear from people who would build an NA car even if they had all the money in the world....

[Replica]

Um, I had an Eaton. Throttle response was amazing, it was very "driveable" and i used engine braking all the time.

All-motor is really neat in that there's nothing cooler than stomping another car's ass without having to run boost. Mods are very hard to spot on an all-motor setup. Also, hearing the valves is pretty cool.

[sidpro5]

Lumpy exhaust owns! I'd love to be able to get some serious performance out of the 2.0, but the cost and reliability factors are just too overwhelming. It's obvious Mazda DIDN'T leave much room for improvement with these engines, unlike Honda or Toyota. Considering these vehicles were marketed toward a younger crowd, that just makes no sense.
That being said, cost IS the biggest factor for me, be it boosted or N/A. That and the limitations on potential, while retaining driveability.Hell, with the money I've already put into it, if it had an "H" in the grille, I'd prolly be at 200 hp already! lol
But if it were easier, it wouldn't be any fun, right?

[Gen1GT]

But if it were easier, it wouldn't be any fun, right?
EXACTLY!

[twilightprotege]

i have gone NA because you can build it up slowly and it's easier to insure ;) hehehe

[batmang]

n/a rocks.

[L8R]

uh...

1. less maintanence (gas, oil changes, motor life, etc.)
2. much cheaper to keep it n/a
3. id rather buy a car already fast, instead of trying to push the protege to break down

[20EVOLUTION01]

All Motors just kicks A** (bow). Plus, building the motor up with just engine parts is amazing. Figuring out what makes your car go faster with parts alone is the challenge. Anyone can boost but to say you ar N/A is a great feeling. Its like an eye brow raiser. (cool)

[Mr. Win]

ill have to say that theres linear power deliv in any properly tuned car... umm N/As is great if it did anything on our cars. But thier isnt the interest to do it because of the fact the protege 2.0 is a very limited production car and then the number that acutally seriously mod would pay anyways to have custom setups sooo on the protege its rather pointess because all the mods we have now just free up power and really dont show any gains. im sorry but 15.9 isnt anything.

[viVid]

im sorry but 15.9 isnt anything.
It's not bad for a grocery getting, 4-door station wagon that happens to look nice :D. Personally, I like n/a because I don't have to constantly look at a myriad of gauges and worry about blowing my engine up... I can keep my eyes on the road instead.

[Gen1GT]

All Motors just kicks A** (bow). Plus, building the motor up with just engine parts is amazing. Figuring out what makes your car go faster with parts alone is the challenge. Anyone can boost but to say you ar N/A is a great feeling. Its like an eye brow raiser. (cool)
I agree. There's a mystique to NA power. In my case, I'm doing the sleeper thing. The only thing you can see in my engine bay is my pod filter, and when I get my header done, I want to use my friends old Prelude heat shield. I can show people the powerplant, and it looks like some beat up old engine. You can't see cams, pistons, headwork etc tec

[Mr. Win]

It's not bad for a grocery getting, 4-door station wagon that happens to look nice :D. Personally, I like n/a because I don't have to constantly look at a myriad of gauges and worry about blowing my engine up... I can keep my eyes on the road instead.
good luck getting 15.9 out of a p5 i meant rogues old ass pro with no interior.

[SpicyMchaggis]

Originally Posted by SenorCorwin
im sorry but 15.9 isnt anything

i completely agree man. Thats what I run and I continuously bitch about my car. Others disagree with me, but they don't have to drive my car everyday. Honestly I'd rather have a supercharger..Turbo's fun I guess..Nobody elses car sounds like a 747 while in traffic...sometime's thats fun..If anybody wants to know what our cars sound like with a header and a race-pipe..I should have a video up shortly..It's monster truck rally meets uncle ben.

[Mr. Win]

[/i]

i completely agree man. Thats what I run and I continuously bitch about my car. Others disagree with me, but they don't have to drive my car everyday. Honestly I'd rather have a supercharger..Turbo's fun I guess..Nobody elses car sounds like a 747 while in traffic...sometime's thats fun..If anybody wants to know what our cars sound like with a header and a race-pipe..I should have a video up shortly..It's monster truck rally meets uncle ben.
totally feel you there which header and exhaust you runnign?

[SpicyMchaggis]

a stainless 4-1 and 2.4" piping all the way back with no cats.

[Gen1GT]

15.9 is respecable for a car that runs 16.5-17 from the factory. It's not like any of us have crazy mods....yet

[FC3s Boy]

you guys forgot about better gas mileage my P5 gets 28-30 mpg while a boosted P5 gets only 19-22mpg, and i run 87 oct. instead of 91. On my rx7 i stay n/a because it is something different .

[SpicyMchaggis]

yeah the gas mileage is pretty nice..that will change soon.

[Replica]

I love being NA because being slow is awesome.

[Installshield 2]

This is how it is...don't disagree with me because I am right: FI, anyway you cut it, is cheating...Any event that creates an engine to have more than 100% volumetric efficiency is cheating...

I don't really race at all, other than an occasional trip to the track...But this for anyone that does race...When you condone a turbo, or other "forceful" device on your car...you are automatically eligable to an entirely different bracket of racing...So someone tells you to line up next to an NA M3, you have absolutely no excuse on why he can beat you...You have a turbo, it is so ridiculously easy to make more power with a turbo...Nevermind that thing having an I-6, you have a turbo...So when you get beat by the M3, which does not have a turbo, you are branded a loser by everyone...

But staying NA is on the other end...If you get crushed by a WRX, no one hackles you too much simply because the WRX is cheating...If you have a 190whp NA car (thats a good 10 or so on the stock WRX), and you manage to beat it...You are instantly granted immortality and infinite women forever...

I don't know, I am just rambling...But I get real tired of retardly powerful FWD eclipses and the like very quickly...A FWD turbo'd jugernaut that couldn't make good traction to save its life is stupid...

A well bred NA engine that sings to redline and has an amazing highend powerband is fun though...and I gain respect for those that invest the time and research to do it properly (especially those of you attempting it on the FS...since its even worse stock then most to begin with)...I have nothing against turbocharging though...just certain techniques...I don't care for crazy powerful FWD cars...Its fine in an EVO, WRX, or 240...But not in FWD economy cars...I had some parts ready for a high compression low boost setup, but ditched it last month...And I am definately going to go all out NA at least with this current engine...

[PaulMP3]

you guys forgot about better gas mileage my P5 gets 28-30 mpg while a boosted P5 gets only 19-22mpg, and i run 87 oct. instead of 91. On my rx7 i stay n/a because it is something different .
Im boosted and i still get around 25mpg.. I used to get 25mpg before boosting mine.

[akhilleus]

yeah but your setup is tuned better than some peoples...
On the subject of NA tuning i find it to be a great challenge. Especially on the protege. I bought the car as a decent base on which to build a mild engine buildup. Although the FS doesnt have as much potential as a honda per-se it still can post good numbers. Everyone seems to forget about the world challenge protege's that were NA. And i think turbo's are cheating in a way too but not for the same reason. I have learned so much about engine's and modifying by working on my car and exploring options ...whereas with a turbo its a fairly starightforward install and the concept is also simple. u can literally bolt on 60whp... thats fun but also doesnt involve much learning, thinking, developing as an NA setup. Also NA setups are more varied....they are almost unique to each owner. With a bolt on turbo your options regarding kits are limited so the uniqueness factor is different. I also dont believe the FS can handle being aftermarket boosted for years or tens of thousands of miles, especially if i had it. :D

[SpicyMchaggis]

if your talking about a well-bred FS-DE for N/A your in the wrong game. I'm an N/A freak..But the mazda motor is the wrong one for it..There are far better motors to pursue an N/A quest on. Like a honda. Hate al you want. N/A honda's are sick. Boost isn't cheating..It's just another method to achieve a performance goal..rant rant rant..Cars are fun no matter what approach you take.

[EviLMaN]

i like n/a cause most ppl go for turbos and i am the type to try diffrent stuff and go the harder way (n/a) plus ill get to work on my car more :) and if i got a turbo umm install in like 1 day and to work on my car to go faster turn the nob on the boost contoler. but i love the BOV thoe but dammit i love the bov :(

[mp3moose]

I hate NA, but my mods don't put me on the side of the road every month.

[Sushi-Monster]

if your talking about a well-bred FS-DE for N/A your in the wrong game. I'm an N/A freak..But the mazda motor is the wrong one for it..There are far better motors to pursue an N/A quest on. Like a honda. Hate al you want. N/A honda's are sick. Boost isn't cheating..It's just another method to achieve a performance goal..rant rant rant..Cars are fun no matter what approach you take.
For the NA people, I hate to admit it, but Honda engines are almost built bullet proof... with VTech, its something that most NA people crave. If your in the quest for NA, you might was well hit up the 2.3L 160HP engine from Mazda... I haven't read too much on it, but already that looks like a genuwine sleeper... If I'm not wrong, it does have a form of VTech correct?

[Installshield 2]

V-TEC has nothing to do with why Honda engines are good for NA builds...the only reason V-TEC was ever used on the street was simply to create "adequate" lowend torque for such a small displacement engine...If a B16 DOHC V-TEC was only using the big cam lobes...It would make just as much peak HP, but would make next to no torque...The V-TEC system is there only to allow a swich over, and make an engine have the best of both worlds for the most part...although they never really got the torque thing nailed perfectly...But with a 1.6L engine, you can't have both without a timing system like that...its either high rpm power, no lowend torque...Or a little lowend torque...and no high rpm power...

But Honda engine's usually have much higher rod ratio's than we do...and therefor fundamentally lack lowend torque, but have lower pistons speeds per given rpm...which translates into an excellent high rpm breathing engine...That is why they are great for NA, and the rod ratio's are high enough to tolerate 1000rpm or so more than what they come stock...

So to break it down generally...A K20 at 8,000 rpm has pistons moving up and down significantly slower than our FS at 8,000 grand...The FS's move so damn fast it leaves little time to pull air in effectively...Overall making the entrie build take a lot of research...

You can have a 100% cooler NA engine out of the FS than you ever could with variable valve timing though...With some long duration cams, and very high compression...The FS at idle would be amazing...It would lump along, and sound all poppy...which makes it awesome...Our rod ratio's will make sure we will almost always, except in the most extreme NA builds, have lowend torque...So the FS can get away without a VTEC type system, and only run on big cams...

[Gen1GT]

Ya, the new L-series do have variable valve timing. So does the NB chassis Miata. I'd be able to use that on my car if I wanted. (what you have to remember about VTEC, is that it doesn't create more power up top like people think it does. It just allows Honda to use an ultra small low-rpm cam lobe keep the engine efficient at low rpm. When you're going for all out power, you only want the big cams. First thing a road racer does with an ITR is lose the VTEC system)

Spicey, you're right. The FS AND the BP are crap for NA, although the BP was a bit more engineered, and the heads aren't that bad. But that's just the point. Take an engine what WASN'T designed for high RPM, high hp without forced induction, MAKE it more powerful, and be happy. It's the challenge that's so much fun.

I fully agree with Install. I consider turbo cheating. I could make 300 reliable wheel hp for my BP for $5000, or I can spend $10,000 and get 170. I'm choosing the latter BECAUSE it's harder. I have no respect for a turbo car, because the guy driving it probably had nothing to do with engineering it, buidling it, fabricating it or tuning it. Us NA guys have to use custom parts, custom machine work, ingenuitive problem solving thrown in with a bit of luck. One of the Miata guys tried 6 different cams before settling on his Web Cams. One guy is getting 180whp in his BP, and says to get that extra 5-10whp, he'll have to spend another $5000. We do it because it's hard, not because it's easy. I have infinite amount more respect for a guy who got 30% more power naturally aspirated, than 50% by turbo.

How about this. Mazdaspeeds dyno around 150-155 at the wheels. What cammands more respect, a 1.8NA getting 170whp, or a turbocharged 2.0 getting 155whp?

[SpicyMchaggis]

At the moment, I'm back and forth between N/A and boost..I'm tired of getting beat by MSP's on the highway and not being able to keep up with the STi crew. I don't street race, but I do like to have fun with others on the highway..Its just depressing knowing that i've spent so much time, and potentially about to spend 10x more time to create about 20 more whp..Maybe. Who knows with boost. I can't do anything I want until I get some more money though. I don't want to settle on a damn SRT-4 or WRX just because I don't want to put the time into the DX..I've gone too far for that now. As it sits I need roughly 11,000$ to achieve what I want. I've tallied this so many times its getting ridiculous. If you need me, I'll be over at citgo buying some more powerball tickets. -Kyle

[DooMer_MP3]

I think a problem we have here with the FS-DE for an NA build, is that nobody has actually tried tuning an NA application yet. Well, at least nobody who is just trying to add a little power (the hobbyist).

If I do go with the I/H/E/Cams, MPI tuner, maybe I'll be able to achieve 30-40HP more. And if not, I'll save up a little more, and buy some HC pistons, and further tune it.

Chris

[Mr. Win]

At the moment, I'm back and forth between N/A and boost..I'm tired of getting beat by MSP's on the highway and not being able to keep up with the STi crew. I don't street race, but I do like to have fun with others on the highway..Its just depressing knowing that i've spent so much time, and potentially about to spend 10x more time to create about 20 more whp..Maybe. Who knows with boost. I can't do anything I want until I get some more money though. I don't want to settle on a damn SRT-4 or WRX just because I don't want to put the time into the DX..I've gone too far for that now. As it sits I need roughly 11,000$ to achieve what I want. I've tallied this so many times its getting ridiculous. If you need me, I'll be over at citgo buying some more powerball tickets. -Kyle
yea turbo is the cheapest way to get power to tell you the truth. i mean with this motor get it P&P everything and put in some 11:1 pistons (which then youll need stand alone) 11:1 is the highest you can go. larger cams and some specially designed cam gears and you MAY havent something but it will be even more unrealiable then turbo get worse mpg. and be even worse at daily driving... boost it all that is good...

[Installshield 2]

Why is 11:1 the highest you can go????

[Mr. Win]

well in the middle it where you will get the most preformance and top end and low end and still be decently drivable. id say 10.7 pistons the polish the head, diffrent gasket. and youll get 11

[Gen1GT]

I'm going to be running 12:1

10:1 pistons
.020 deck height
.020 gasket
44cc combustion chambers
83.5mm bore
85.0mm stroke

I'll have to back off my initial ignition advance, but with 266 degree cams and a pretty low rod ratio, I won't have any problems.

[Mr. Win]

i know nothing abotu the 93 pro. im telling you about 99-03 pros. ive already done the data and all that shit. the fs-de would suck ass to drive on the street.

[Mr. Win]

ps what all that going to cost some other person? not you and whatever deal you get.

[Installshield 2]

I am interested in your data Corwin...I already have 12.1:1 pistons in an MP3 engine...and it has not run yet...I have never heard anything of getting best top end, low end, middle and drivability with 11:1...The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed...Thats about it...You have to figure temp increases, and upgrade the cooling system if necessary top keep detonation at bay...But 12:1 is nothing outragous...M3's run 11.7:1 bone stock...

The cam's are what are going to hurt my streetability if any...I have seen plenty of engine's running north of 13:1 on the street, with only minor cold start problems...

[Gen1GT]

ps what all that going to cost some other person? not you and whatever deal you get.
Miata 10:1 pistons are $78 each CDN. Ring kit is $120, Gasket is $50, decking the block, $150, CCing chambers, free. Unless material has to be added, or head shaved.

An FS could run 12, or even 13:1 CR. 94 octane, complete ignition control, slightly rich, clean chambers, lumpy cams. Wouldn't be a problem at all. Japanese 4 cyl engines are capable of running much more compression than old V8 engines. The 13:1 with racing gas only applies to them, not us.

[Installshield 2]

Yes indeed...you can basically run it until you start nailing the valves (at which point the lobe specs on the cams would need to be altered to allow the engine to turnover...and then you are no longer in the battle for power)...as long as you have a standalone with full control...

[Mr. Win]

i did it with a local shop as in data i meant money and cost compared to cost of turbo and what you get out of the car. What i meant about best of top end and all that shit was like the compromise of everything is 11:1 or so say the guy at shop who had prob one of the earliest turbo p5s "The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed..." biggest issue right here the AEM is a joke and ive said since the beginning i know there will be things in NOV of this year that will be more solid and affordable. and yea 12:1 anit much but i think you think this engine to be more bullet proof then it is.

[Mr. Win]

Yes indeed...you can basically run it until you start nailing the valves (at which point the lobe specs on the cams would need to be altered to allow the engine to turnover...and then you are no longer in the battle for power)...as long as you have a standalone with full control...
your going to find this needing to happen sooner then youd think.

[Installshield 2]

Dude...Did you read what I did to it????...the bottom end is forged everything now...It will be perfectly fine for 12:1...and its already fine for over 8,000rpm...

[Gen1GT]

i did it with a local shop as in data i meant money and cost compared to cost of turbo and what you get out of the car. What i meant about best of top end and all that shit was like the compromise of everything is 11:1 or so say the guy at shop who had prob one of the earliest turbo p5s "The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed..." biggest issue right here the AEM is a joke and ive said since the beginning i know there will be things in NOV of this year that will be more solid and affordable. and yea 12:1 anit much but i think you think this engine to be more bullet proof then it is.
From what I hear, FS only needs rods. With some forged aluminum pistons, you can run even higher compression(better high temp/cooling characteristics).

Most of us are already aware of the cost difference between NA and FI. We still choose the path less walked....

[Installshield 2]

yeah the specific heat capacities of Aluminum allow better detonation prevention than steel...its a little weaker in terms of tensile strength...but it way better than cast still...and its lighter by far than both...

Anyway Senor...oops...the shit I did to the engine was in a different thread...thought it was this one...But yeah, I have been physically building up the engine to handle this NA endevour...its not a stock FS running 12.1:1 static CR...

[Mr. Win]

see i didnt know what rods do you have?

yes your right gt the rod is consently the issue.

[Installshield 2]

yep...from 2001 on all FS's had a forged crank...and the rods quickly became the weakest link...After tearing them out and doing quick tests...it appears overall they are pretty strong...But the recipricating specs of the assembly, and the long stroke...puts a huge amount of inertial load on them...and they are usually the first to fail...

Senor...I cut a set of 4 rods at school out of preforged billet aluminum...They are more or less a test set simply to see if there is any feasible way to get the FS to breathe up around 8 grand...I had to do some CAD work, as well as SolidWorks Plus for a summer class a few weeks ago, and decided to "keep" my project...

These rods are most likely only slightly stroner than stock...But they are much ligher, and will inherantly take less inerital loads at the "big end" because of that...Aluminum, forged or not, is not the most reliable and powerful metal to use in the engine...and cutting them from billet gives goofy grain patterns at the thrust bearing journals...So in the end, I can't see myself using these for very long...But since they were literally paid for with tuition, I will see how they do...

[Gen1GT]

yep...from 2001 on all FS's had a forged crank...and the rods quickly became the weakest link...After tearing them out and doing quick tests...it appears overall they are pretty strong...But the recipricating specs of the assembly, and the long stroke...puts a huge amount of inertial load on them...and they are usually the first to fail...

Senor...I cut a set of 4 rods at school out of preforged billet aluminum...They are more or less a test set simply to see if there is any feasible way to get the FS to breathe up around 8 grand...I had to do some CAD work, as well as SolidWorks Plus for a summer class a few weeks ago, and decided to "keep" my project...

These rods are most likely only slightly stroner than stock...But they are much ligher, and will inherantly take less inerital loads at the "big end" because of that...Aluminum, forged or not, is not the most reliable and powerful metal to use in the engine...and cutting them from billet gives goofy grain patterns at the thrust bearing journals...So in the end, I can't see myself using these for very long...But since they were literally paid for with tuition, I will see how they do...
I hope they work well for you. Maybe having a lighter forged rod, which is probably at least as strong as the factory casts, will keep you more reliable than stock.

[Mr. Win]

thats sick then bro i give you far more credit then i thought. youve got it all covered for now. watch the crank sensor for some reason my friends kept going bad, havent figured out why. you ever think about knife edged cranks as well high rpms theere too and better reving. grainy pattern? you try to clean them with a wire brush wheel?

[akhilleus]

If andy ever gets his shit back together u could get aluminum rods from him. I think they were the pauter rods. They were light as hell when i looked at them/handled them. looked very professional too.

[Installshield 2]

thats sick then bro i give you far more credit then i thought. youve got it all covered for now. watch the crank sensor for some reason my friends kept going bad, havent figured out why. you ever think about knife edged cranks as well high rpms theere too and better reving. grainy pattern? you try to clean them with a wire brush wheel?
Not the surface texture dude...The grain pattern of the metal...when you forge steel, titanium, or aluminum, you elongate and stretch the "grain" or molecular alignment in a favorable matter for the stress levels of engine load...If you pre-cut rods for your specific application, and THEN forge them...you gain strength around the capped end of the rod, because the grain is forced into a circular patter around that end...When you cut it out of a forged plate of billet, be it steel or aluminum, The grain patter stays straight up and down the rod, and does not circulate around the big end...So you don't gain that slight edge in strength...But it is by far easier to cut them out of billet then to cast them, and then forge them, and then re align everything that the forging process changed...

I have thought a lot about Knifing the crank too...these rods are retardly light...I didn't make them much bigger than the size of the stock pieces (one advantage of lightweight aluminum is that you can use a lot of it in terms of volume, and still be lighter than other metals)...mostly because I really don't know how yet...I could only laser guide the stock pieces into the computer...and then cut the billet aluminum to the same specs...I tried to make them slightly larger, but they appear to be identical...So with that these rods are nutty light, but not very strong...which means I will definately be going with another set later this summer...and at that time is when I will probably knife the crank some...I don't know much about that process though, so I will have to pay someone on to do it...I can test the balance of cranks and assembly's...but I don't really know what to do in terms of machining or rebalancing one after you actually cut pieces off...

[Matthew]

All Motors just kicks A** (bow). Plus, building the motor up with just engine parts is amazing. Figuring out what makes your car go faster with parts alone is the challenge. Anyone can boost but to say you ar N/A is a great feeling. Its like an eye brow raiser. (cool)
problem being you have to get some sort of respect for it to become an eye brow raiser...you arent going to beat anything but stock cars and ricers with an all motor protege. respect is being able to beat WRXs, Mustang GTs, MSPs, SRTs, etc, and you wont do that all motor on a protege. people were always like nice engine bay when i was N/A and i got respect for that, but everyone knows your car is slow. since ive been turbo'd, its a whole other community. we turbo guys hang out together at local meets because thats where the power is. say you MIGHT with an average NA person might get 175hp...thats about what SVT focuses put out STOCK, and Spec Vs put out STOCK...and i eat SVTs and spit out Festivas.

[Installshield 2]

Now Now matt...I don't know much about your crowd bud...But I must say, unless you can beat everyhting you mentioned there and a whole lot more...I have less respect for turbo'd cars...Its the grey area I loose respect for...Most turbo'd Protege's can't compete with a stock SRT-4 Neon...MP5Jeff's video was the very first that I saw a P5 even close...and He was right beside him the entire way...

Either way you go, I respect those that truely push it...I would find a 180whp NA FS 5 times as impressive as a 200whp turbo'd FS...I don't care for a 500whp FWD, but if someone does that...then I would be impressed with turbo proteges too...All I am getting at is what you mentioned...You turbo your car, you are in a different category of performance...and Protege's still do not do very well in that one either...Spec V's are a disgrace, and SVT's are even slower...so I would hope those would get destroyed...But some kid with a sleeper stock looking WRX, very well could be pushing nearly 350whp and have the traction to put it on the ground...You cannot mess with that...and those of us that stay NA would never be expected to...

I am not disagreeing with you though...Turbos are a lot of fun...But in my area, you are a chump if you are turbo'd and slow...Most turbo proteges are just barely edging out the stock sport compact NA cars (like the mentioned Spec's, SVT's and others)...and only those that are stock...A economy wagonoid P5 with 170whp NA that can run with a stock RSX type S would be impressive though, to me anyway...

In the end all i am saying that as far as proteges go...NA is an excuse to be slow..."most" turbo'd protege's are still really slow on the grand scale of things...But that excuse for being slow is no longer there...Most guys don't want to hear why you haven't even gained 100whp when you have a turbo hangin' out in there...they won't listen to the ECU problems or how hard it is to get reliable power out of this engine...On the other hand though everyone knows how hard NA is...especially on a less popular engine...So yes, a FS pushed to the limit of about 190whp NA...will still be slow...but the excuse for being slow will still exist...

[marashka]

N/A is definately more challenging route to take, but turbo is where the power at. Now I agree with Installshield 2 that boosted protege is not as fast as a turbo car should be, but think of the money issue....how much are you going to put in n/a fs to pull off 14.5?
i can do that with 300 dollars on top of my MSP. its a whole different ball game once you have a turbo, its easier and cheaper way to go....although i do not consider myself cheating, essentually its just another bolt on, on the same engine.

p.s there is no way to squeese out the amount of power from n/a any motor, comparing to turbo any motor.

[Gen1GT]

I don't think anyone claimed an NA car could make as much power as a turbo car. But when I'm making 170whp(200crank) from my 1.8, that was suppoosed to make 125 from the factory, well that's a 60% increase in power without a turbo. THAT is impressive. Mind you, for the same amount of money I'm going to spend, I could have 300whp in my little BP, but it's just not the same. I'm with Install on this one.......

Install, if you get your crank knife-edged, the same machine who does that mind of work can balance it too. I'm going to have mine balanced to 10,000rpm(pretty standard for the most part), and in addition to the windage losses it frees up, you save a couple lbs off the crank with knife-edging. I'm going to have my crank journals cross-drilled too. You can never be too cautious when it comes to oil supply.

edit-and as far as speed goes, I'm almost as fast as a Mazdaspeed Protege, and I'm only at 117whp.......

[marashka]

all that turbo does is makes it easier to make more power.Does it take out some fun out of modifying? maybe, but isn't it fun to go a LOT faster with the turn of the knob? or put the same time and money as N/A car in the internals and tuning and you are able to double the output. the only thing that attracts me more to N/A is the respect you get from people who know a thing or two about cars, after you made an imressive 110hp per liter without the forced induction. its good if you have the time, money and desire to do it. i'd rather prefer the easy way.

[akhilleus]

Honestly stock msp's arent that fast, neither are wrx's. I have hung with both no problem. Its all about when the power comes on. I might not be able to hang at high speeds, over 100, but i have no problem below 80 and in reality how often do u get to go over 100mph, at least in NJ. And obviously it is so much easier to get power out of a turbo. but who cares which is "better" we all have different goals here, and foundations to work on, Ultimately we all want to do our own thing and that may or may not involve a turbo or NA setup.

[20EVOLUTION01]

See some people don't see the perspective in N/A. I am not trying to go the easy route, I could care less if I can beat a WRX, EVO, or anything else. I like my car how it is. Yes I wish they could have placed more tuning into the engine, (FS-DE), but that is our challenge now. I love a challenge, to be able to squeze out as much from my N/A power vehicle. I am about driving my car, and also making it handle great. I am amazed at the power Gen1GT and Installshield 2 have done to get where they are now. I respect them cuz they have the Knownledge to make there cars perform the way they do. I only wish I had the knowledge they have now to apply it to my MP. I have some knowledge from reading a lot about the engines from mazda but I only wish I knew more about it. Yes I like turbos, I bought my little brother a 1985 Mits Starion 2.6 Turbo Intercooled. I love the sound of the turbo but I rather have a N/A car. 1985 and 1986 were the most trouble some year for the Mitsubishi Starion but I love a challenge. I could care less if people make fun of my mods. I just wish I could test them to see if I am actually making power and not robbing my engine.

I remember the last time I went to the track I beat a Honda Accord with a highly modifies engine and he was using NOS. Best time was 16.8 at the 1/4. I only had an SRI, Muffler, and better tires. Maybe he didn't have it tuned right but he was pissed. He then went and bought an H22 cuz I beat him. I guess he didn't like his car after that. I would rather have the best handling for road and track than be the fastest.

Respect to those who are N/A and are staying N/A. My eyebrow raises to you guuys (2thumbs)

[Installshield 2]

haha thanks man...I don't think I know much at all..Gen1 does I feel though...

But I should clarify too...I couldn't care less what others feel about what I do to my p5 either..especially those outside of this community...and like you I could care less about what cars I can or cannot beat......It boils down to who works the hardest I guess...I don't want anyone to feel I have no respect for them because they have a turbo or whatever...that is not the case at all...Its just in my mind I would rather try something new, and do what everyone said was a waste of time...It may be a waste of time in the long run...but it is still a lot of fun...Projects cars are rarely ever fully completed...

Gen1...The knifing thing:...I have access to the equipment to cut it myself...and I could easily do that part...but I have little experience rebalancing something of that complexity...that is what I meant...and after the standalone coming in June, I have little money to pay someone to do the whole knifing thing...So I am stuck at this point as far as that is concerned...

[Installshield 2]

all that turbo does is makes it easier to make more power.Does it take out some fun out of modifying? maybe, but isn't it fun to go a LOT faster with the turn of the knob? or put the same time and money as N/A car in the internals and tuning and you are able to double the output. the only thing that attracts me more to N/A is the respect you get from people who know a thing or two about cars, after you made an imressive 110hp per liter without the forced induction. its good if you have the time, money and desire to do it. i'd rather prefer the easy way.
This is dead on...I love turbo cars...I don't want to give off the impression that I am all anti turbo's...But anyone that knows the first thing about cars, knows what it means to make north of 100bhp/liter...Mustang and Camaro drivers dream of numbers like that, if they even understand that such a feat is possible...that is how I view others too...My neighbor has a Black RSX Type S, with tons of Mugen mods and some internal work...The 2.0L K20 revs to over 9000 rpm, and is reportedly making nearly 220whp on stock compression...And his friend comes over nearly everynight in a 2nd Gen Eclipse GS-T...that he bought used for 8 grand...he has not touched anything on it, and it was making 300whp when he purchased it...And he feels he owns the world...

that is what bothers me about it...You talk about a 911 or something around him, and he feels his car is better, simply because it makes slightly more power...I don't respect people like that...and he didn't even build up the car...It basically took a boost controller, a downpipe, exhaust, new intercooler, and some fuel management to get those numbers...No hard work, no research...Just did what countless other Eclipse owners did, and he is now envied by every Cavalier driver in town...

[shinzen]

N/A is a blast when done right- I'll admit what made me so interested in N/A was my buddies 92 integra- over 200whp, redlines at 10k and will absolutely tear your head off. When the cams really kick in, it almost feels like you are in a turbo car- knife-edged, 5 angle valve job- titanium valve springs blueprinted and balanced- these things can be done to damn near any motor and pull a lot more out of it- the drawback is the whole build cost a lot of money, but there isn't another one like it that I have seen- and true tuners will definitely give you some respect for a car that looks only lightly modified on the exterior but will tear it up on a track.

[bruce95fmla]

I give plenty respect to N/A cars. My only problem with the whole N/A thing is, it costs to much money. Also the reliability of your car also goes out the window. At the same time I am not going to say I don't appreciate a n/a motor. I mean I love the sound of a lumpy idle and the high rpm's and what not. I get that with my 2 BP powered mazda's right now.
However
We have a motor that is very capalbe of holding power and great amounts of boost STOCK. There are not many motors from manufactures that can make that claim. (I am refering to the BP and B6T).

Also I think that turbo motors deserve a lot of respect also. They are usually planned out, just like a na set up, and usually well thought out. I know that I rather to turbo my protege, mainly because it is more profitable for me in the long run. It really doesn't make sense for me to spend thousands of dollars on a full na build up and I can't net over 200hp TO THE GROUND.
Yup to heck with the crank, I want 200 to the ground minimum. Even though n/a is the harder way of life, and I respect people that have the money to forfill those dreams. I just rather have a turbo with forged internals and still would have spent half or less than the na guy spent to build his whole motor.
If you have the money go for it. If not then it's boost.
It all will boil down to having the cash and the time. These two things is not readily available to everyone in the automotive community.

Good luck

[FunkyBuddha]

For me, it's the throttle response, no turbo lag, smoother power delivery, the sound of the engine as it reaches redline. Plus there's less likely a chance of me blowing my engine/tranny. Being mildly tuned means that I can still run regular unleaded gas since these gas prices are so damn fucking high!! LOL

[bruce95fmla]

If you get the proper size turbo, matching it to you engine size and needs, you won't loose throttle response.

[Installshield 2]

I agree with most of what you said bruce...However, if you are going for crazy numbers with a turbo on a small displacment engine...You will ALWAYS have some lag, simply because you need to flow tons of air by means of a big turbo...and a turbo of that size has trouble being bossed around by 4 puny exhaust ports...On less boost though it will not be nearly as noticable...

Also when speeking in terms of going all out crazy turbo...You will still spend a ton of money...Basically with NA, at least with an FS, you HAVE to start with a Standalone before any of the internal work...Forged internals for high revving and a standalone puts you at over 3 grand in most cases...but from that is where the gains are very significant...after those mods + the bolt ons, it is very difficult to gain much more...An engine running a turbo and forged internals and a standalone is extremely expensive too though...This is a land of 6+ grand either way you cut it...The turbo route will give the huge numbers, and the NA route won't...But after you have forged internals, and all the stuff for the turbo you can't say you didn't spend much...

But I do agree with the notion of a lot of turbo builds being very well thought out...To do it correctly and reliably takes a great deal of knowlege, and in some cases some trial and error as well as custom work...I love that about it...But as far as these cars, and their chassis, it just seems that a very powerful NA engine is in its blood...

[shinzen]

I think the difference for the turbo guys is the instant gratification- bolt this on and bam! instant power, but like you said, to get it right there is a lot of planning that should go into it. The nice thing is 3k and you have 200hp- the problem being is the lack of supporting mods and then the engine goes boom-

[Gen1GT]

Thanks for the compliment 20EVOLUTION. LOL, I'm not quite as modest as Install, as I know I know more than most, and have a bit more experience than most, but I'm far from an expert. I'm ALWAYS learning more, reading, experimenting and listening to people who've done it before. Right now, my mechanic(who does all the stuff I can't do, like welding, dyno tuning etc) and the guys at Miata.net are tonnes of help, and so knowledgable.

Here's a recommendation. Buy and read "How to build Honda Power"(do an Amazon search). It covers the basics of what you need to know about building a 4 cyl engine. Right now I'm re-reading my books on Balancing and Blueprinting, and my Miata 1.8 Enthusiast Manual, because I'm rebuilding and blueprinting a BP. FS guys don't have the luxury of the performance shop manual yet(if you guys don't have your factory shop manual, you should get one), but anything you can read will aid your general knowledge of cars. Some more advice, buy a scrap 4 cyl engine with a blown head gasket or something like that, and rebuild it yourself. You'll pay for a little bit of machining possibly, and a rebuild/gasket kit. But the knowledge you'll gain will be priceless, and you can even sell the rebuilt motor to make back all your money and more.....

[bruce95fmla]

Thanks for the compliment 20EVOLUTION. LOL, I'm not quite as modest as Install, as I know I know more than most, and have a bit more experience than most, but I'm far from an expert. I'm ALWAYS learning more, reading, experimenting and listening to people who've done it before. Right now, my mechanic(who does all the stuff I can't do, like welding, dyno tuning etc) and the guys at Miata.net are tonnes of help, and so knowledgable.

Here's a recommendation. Buy and read "How to build Honda Power"(do an Amazon search). It covers the basics of what you need to know about building a 4 cyl engine. Right now I'm re-reading my books on Balancing and Blueprinting, and my Miata 1.8 Enthusiast Manual, because I'm rebuilding and blueprinting a BP. FS guys don't have the luxury of the performance shop manual yet(if you guys don't have your factory shop manual, you should get one), but anything you can read will aid your general knowledge of cars. Some more advice, buy a scrap 4 cyl engine with a blown head gasket or something like that, and rebuild it yourself. You'll pay for a little bit of machining possibly, and a rebuild/gasket kit. But the knowledge you'll gain will be priceless, and you can even sell the rebuilt motor to make back all your money and more.....
Yeah I agree with you. I have 3 BP's. 1 in the protege and 1 in the 323 and 1 in my back yard with new miata pistons (parting out). My original plan for my protege was turbo and my original plan for my 323 was full NA power (but needed to be reliable). Plans changed for the 323 when I found a turbo for 150 with manifold and since I can make all the pipeing myself. I can just do it and run low boost for fun.

I do agree with the manual and the learning. You learn so much when you pull your own motor apart. I did this 3 times, with honeing out the block, pulling rods, replacing everything, cleaning and all that jazz... It is fun, time consuming but fun.

hey believe it or not I have an offer for a trade, for a set of Genie headers for my turbo.. lol.

[SpicyMchaggis]

Haha..N/A is fun. Especially when we were crusining on the saw mill and the dx was rockin it. DX owns you. haha. bruce knows whats up.

[20EVOLUTION01]

In my time I have rebuilt two V8 Engines, one with High Performanc parts. I loved taking them apart and putting them back together. My Brother has a 1976 Grand Prix with the 350. I love the engine. This is the one we rebuilt using High Performance Parts. I gained a lot from rebuilding these V8's. I am now trying to find a 2.0 for rebuilding and modifying since my MP is my daily driver. I have a lot of experience in body work, electrical, welding, and mechanical but I lack in knowledge about making the motor perform, what the weakest links in the motors are and what can be done to make it better. I have gained a lot from reading in this forum and so in others. My Brother owns a P5 and he loves his car but is not into modifying it.

Sorry it looks like I got off topic on the thread. I also sometimes ramble on. (blah)

[Installshield 2]

don't worry about it dude...We all ramble...

[MSPinVA]

No offense to you N/A guys, but some of you I just don't get. N/A power is great (I drove Camaros before I bought my MSP), but why? I know it's more of a challenge to build up a motor without any FI, but isn't it a little disheartening when someone who spent half the money and time you did on the same car totally whoops you at the track? The excuse "Yeah, but I'm NA" is only gonna get you laughed at. Everyone knows that this FS motor is an NA dog.

And the cracks about the Mazdaspeed and other boosted proteges were totally unwarrented. Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege. Let me put about 2 grand into my car and, oh, wait. I dropped more than a second and gained more than 50 horsepower. And you are.... still slow. Sorry, but if you want an NA beast go get a B18C5 or a K20/24 hybrid and kill us all. That's just my .02 though, let the flaming begin.

[twilightprotege]

no flaming allowed here, but how much more did you pay for your car to start off with??? we're not starting from the same figures remember....if an NA car spends the difference we saved compaired to a turbo we'd be quicker w/o doubt

[Installshield 2]

Yeah we went over this...A turbo protege, at this point, is still slow...Like I mentioned earlier, and I don't know what type of people you hang around as far as car enthusiasts; My friends and I always laugh the hardest at the turbo guy that got crushed by an NA car...Once you hang that compressor off your exhaust manifold, you no longer have any reason to still be slow..thats my point, and most turbo proteges are still slow at this point, except when compared to a stock protege...

Who laughs at a 2.0L NA car getting beat by a turbocharged car????? Anyone with half a mind would understand why it got beat, or why it "should" have got beat...

A friend of mine owns a '88 Porsche 944 S (which is not the Turbo)..that makes roughly 185bhp stock from its 2.5L mill...After some internal work, I/H/E, and a Unichip he is making plenty more (this has nothing to do with NA in general, just listing the mods he made)...and last weekend he destroyed a SRT-4...I pointed and laughed at the SRT-4 driver for over an hour, only because of his "I have a turbo, Germany can't touch this thing" statement 38 seconds before they lined up...

Now on the otherhand, if the SRT-4 would have destroyed the NA 944, I would have expected it..unless he left it bone stock, which he didn't...A 2.5L NA 944 with 12.5:1 compression pushing nearly 250whp to the rear wheels is so much more impressive than a equally powerful turbo'd 944...deny it all you want...

NA vs. FI is fundamentally unfair...I don't know why anyone would hackle the kid that stayed NA and lost against someone who went the FI route...there is no reason to have the easy advantage of FI, and still get fed taillights by some NA chump...especially pertaining to small displacement four cylinder cars...

In all reality, most of us NA dudes are just looking for a more fun to drive protege...I don't want to have a turbo'd protege for a lot of reasons...and I couldn't give two shits about which cars my protege is capable of beating...I just want to have great handling NA car that will scream up mountain roads faster than it will now...so that is what I plan on doing...If a turbo'd car comes around, and beats me in a straight line...I don't care...The bank account is already saving for the EVO in the future, to deal with the little straight line problem...

[Notorious]

for me instant throttle response, also i like the peakiness of a heavily tuned n/a car. ooo and the sounds

[20EVOLUTION01]

In all reality, most of us NA dudes are just looking for a more fun to drive protege...I don't want to have a turbo'd protege for a lot of reasons...and I couldn't give two shits about which cars my protege is capable of beating...I just want to have great handling NA car that will scream up mountain roads faster than it will now...so that is what I plan on doing...If a turbo'd car comes around, and beats me in a straight line...I don't care...The bank account is already saving for the EVO in the future, to deal with the little straight line problem...

You are totaly right. I love my car for how it is. The Protege already handles good on the corners, believe me, I have made my car go through hell and back and still keeps up with me. Could use some fine tuning though. Once the engine goes out, I don't know what I will place in there (dunno), Probably make it a real sleeper, Rotary anyone? Just a thought.
(uhm)

[Gen1GT]

No offense to you N/A guys, but some of you I just don't get. N/A power is great (I drove Camaros before I bought my MSP), but why? I know it's more of a challenge to build up a motor without any FI, but isn't it a little disheartening when someone who spent half the money and time you did on the same car totally whoops you at the track? The excuse "Yeah, but I'm NA" is only gonna get you laughed at. Everyone knows that this FS motor is an NA dog.

And the cracks about the Mazdaspeed and other boosted proteges were totally unwarrented. Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege. Let me put about 2 grand into my car and, oh, wait. I dropped more than a second and gained more than 50 horsepower. And you are.... still slow. Sorry, but if you want an NA beast go get a B18C5 or a K20/24 hybrid and kill us all. That's just my .02 though, let the flaming begin.
I think YOU are the one that doesn't get it. There is so much to a car than how fast it is in a straight line. Driving a Protege, you'd think you would know that. And why would I buy a B15C5 or K20? They ALREADY have a lot of power. Come on man, when I'm making 60% more power than stock, without a turbo, you have to admit that's pretty impressive.

Think about what you said, "Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege." Admitting that I'm almost as fast as a boosted car, meanwhile I'm only getting 117whp. Wait til I have 170.

[MSPinVA]

No no, you misread me. "Some of you I don't get" not "Some of you don't get it". I don't see exactly how turboing a car is cheating in any respect or takes away from the fact that this car IS so much more than being able to go fast in a straight line. The turbo just adds to the fact that we can corner well and now go decently fast coming out of said corners. A friend of mine took his Evolution to the track and commented how much he was impressed by the Mazdaspeeds keeping up with the bigger boys in the twisties.

And don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for you N/A guys, I just think that you have the wrong impression of forced induction.

[DiscreetSpeed]

I'd like to hear why everyone in this section prefers NA over boost. I talk with other people about it, and they think I'm crazy that I'd rather have a 150whp NA car, than a 250whp turbo car. Here's my reasons

throttle response, both on and off throttle
the sound..you can't beat actually being able to hear valve events
linear power delivery
drivability
engine braking


I don't want to hear from people who just 'can't afford a turbo'. I want to hear from people who would build an NA car even if they had all the money in the world....i know this is not my area..being that i have a turbo...but i disagree with your reasons...throttle response for one. i would agree if you had like a t3/t4 turbo with lag but with a smaller turbo like say the gt-25 there is no lag and throttle response is instant...linear power again if you had a big turbo there would be a problem on my car its linear...i dont understand the driveability? i get 345 miles a tank...and runs smoothly.
engine braking? do you mean breaking or braking?

[Gen1GT]

Engine braking. When you let off the gas in gear, the compression of the engine creates vacuums that can't be filled, so it slows down the engine. Higher static compression, more engine braking.

Also, there ARE plenty of turbo cars with pretty good throttle response, and a low boost car like the Mazdaspeed would be pretty much un-noticable. But because of physics, it's impossible for an FI car to be as good as an NA car. First, there's the physical distance air has to travel in a turbo car once the throttle plate opens. Then there's the time it takes for the turbo to spin, and the time it takes for the compressor to build pressure. All fractions of a second of course, but still taking time. Also, on factory boosted cars, they tend to have thinner intake piping, which incourages low RPM throttle response.

[Gen1GT]

No no, you misread me. "Some of you I don't get" not "Some of you don't get it". I don't see exactly how turboing a car is cheating in any respect or takes away from the fact that this car IS so much more than being able to go fast in a straight line. The turbo just adds to the fact that we can corner well and now go decently fast coming out of said corners. A friend of mine took his Evolution to the track and commented how much he was impressed by the Mazdaspeeds keeping up with the bigger boys in the twisties.

And don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for you N/A guys, I just think that you have the wrong impression of forced induction.
Whups, sorry man, I read you wrong. LOL...it's all good though, I don't get some NA guys sometimes too. Like, MSD being their first mod on an otherwise stock car.... (dark)

[Replica]

Whups, sorry man, I read you wrong. LOL...it's all good though, I don't get some NA guys sometimes too. Like, MSD being their first mod on an otherwise stock car.... (dark)Don't you just have bolt ons?

The all motor honda guys are pretty cool. The sohc guys putting ZC pistons in and running 13:1 comp on stock honda parts. Crazy shit.

[Gen1GT]

Don't you just have bolt ons?

The all motor honda guys are pretty cool. The sohc guys putting ZC pistons in and running 13:1 comp on stock honda parts. Crazy shit.
Ya, I pretty much just have bolt-ons. RX7 Airflow Meter had to be tuned on the dyno, as well as my initial ignition advance, as I'm running 18 degrees right now. Other than that, it's just my custom exhaust. I'm doing an engine build(balancing, blueprinting of course), and I'll be using 10:1 pistons, milled head and block, as well as 44cc combustion chambers, which should be good for 12:1 CR. I don't want to go higher, since my engine isn't all aluminum.

[Replica]

Even a full point of compression doesn't add alot of hp. Isn't it like 4%?

[p5sundevil]

untuned, yes probably 4%

with dyno tuning and/or the addition of an ecu and it should be more.

[Replica]

untuned, yes probably 4%

with dyno tuning and/or the addition of an ecu and it should be more.Alot of money for such little hp...I guess it's a love...

[Gen1GT]

Alot of money for such little hp...I guess it's a love...
NA is all about 2hp here, 3hp there. If I were to bump to 12:1 with everything else being equal, I might be making 130whp. Besides, dynamic compression ratio is more important. You want cams to bring you into the 8-9:1 DCR range. There are only a few mods that get your real power after IHE. Compression, headwork and cams. Other than that, it's nickel and diming it....

[Replica]

If i get 120whp and 130 trq out of bolt ons ill be happy. I think ill get close with exhaust, header and a few other little things.

[Lil Freek]

i'm going to go NA simply cuz i don't need to go turbo-fast in a 4 door sedan.
and i have other things i want for my car, like for it to look nice.

[Gen1GT]

i'm going to go NA simply cuz i don't need to go turbo-fast in a 4 door sedan.
and i have other things i want for my car, like for it to look nice.
Looks is a low priority for me....(hear ya)

[DiscreetSpeed]

If i get 120whp and 130 trq out of bolt ons ill be happy. I think ill get close with exhaust, header and a few other little things.but no where near ready to run me(poke)

[Replica]

but no where near ready to run me(poke)hehe, its not a honda, not trying to make a drag car. :)

[Gen1GT]

but no where near ready to run me(poke)
How fast are you? I'm not far off a stock MSP...

[DiscreetSpeed]

lol i am a little far from stock...you should check out the racing section sometime haha

[Replica]

Race discreet for a couple of bucks, he's slow as piss.

[DiscreetSpeed]

(rockon) (smoke)
Race discreet for a couple of bucks, he's slow as piss.

[Gen1GT]

lol i am a little far from stock...you should check out the racing section sometime haha
You didn't answer my question. I didn't imply YOU were stock, I just said I'm almost as fast as a stock MSP......I should probably pay attention in the racing section too, since I do my fair share....(eekdance)

[p5sundevil]

yah ive heard the same about discreet all talk and no bawlz =P

you know Im jokin man, most msp owners should use yours as a guidline but wtf, ill own you with my massive 110fwhp =)

[DiscreetSpeed]

i dont know how to answer that?...........really i dont
guess im kind of quick for a msp

[Replica]

I beat lots of stupid ricers with my car, and all i have is an intake. It's sad what a mid 16 car and a decent driver can do. Hell, even with my old civic hitting mid 14's, mustangs weren't too much of a challenge.

[DiscreetSpeed]

yah ive heard the same about discreet all talk and no bawlz =P

you know Im jokin man, most msp owners should use yours as a guidline but wtf, ill own you with my massive 110fwhp =)http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMzAxMjY5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjkzNTQ5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D

[Gen1GT]

I still don't know what times you run.....

[Replica]

I still don't know what times you run.....I'll guess a high 13. I need to go to some meets, unless he's sandbagging runs it will only take a few races to figure it out.(smoke)

[Lil Freek]

yeah.. but everybody buys their cars for different reasons..
if i really wanted to go fast, i'd buy a bike (when i turn 25 - 1/4 life crisis)

i just want to have enough power to beat stupid ricers that rev at me, and so that i have SOMETHING to back the sexy look of my car.

[DiscreetSpeed]

I still don't know what times you run.....3 months ago i did 14.4 at 105mph

[SpicyMchaggis]

he's fast..don't even triffle on him..

[MSPinVA]

Discreet is one of the faster ones here. You should come check out the MSP sections sometime, we aren't all craaaazy..... well, at least not me anyway........ :)

[p5sundevil]

you did catch the second part of my post right? =)

lol

[Mr. Win]

p5devil my netgear internal wireless card went out. thats what was causing the errors. it finally died. im on my old desktop now.

[20EVOLUTION01]

(cool) Just bought my 4-2-1 header yesterday, One step into N/A power for me. I ain't loking for to much since I want to consentrate on making it look and handle great. More power would be nice though. I am going to be running catless and strait pipe. Wish me luck.

[Installshield 2]

sounds great dude...let us know how it goes...

[akhilleus]

I just ordered my 41 today too. I think the NA peoples will be showing some interesting results. I even have a nice progression set up, next resonator replacing 2nd cat, 2.5" axleback, WEBcam... then i will start showng some stats.

[Installshield 2]

Aky, you know what cam specs you plan on using yet? That and the EMS are all I plan on doing before the "real" forged internals...

I also did some research on the probe forums, and a lot of dudes claim the G15 and G25 gear boxs will start to fly the hell apart at around 7600 rpm???? You guys ever hear about that? My bottem end is good for nearly 8300 rpm (thats pushing it...but that is the whole point of this engine for now), and if it breathes...thats were I will be ...A LOT...But I never even considered our gearbox tolerances...I didn't see much about the 2.0L probes, but a lot of members are running some internally modified KL-ZE V6's in their GT's, which are good in stock form for nearly 7500rpm...after a few dudes went with some ECU upgrades on the OBD I cars, they were capable of much more than that...I wish Ed would come around soon, he probably knows if anything was changed between now and then...The V6's didn't use our exact gearbox, but I did read that they use nearly identical ratio's and internals...only difference being the bell housing, and the gearbox mount location/size...been a while since I saw that though...

My constant mesh gear set won't be ready till mid July probably...but the engine could be done next week if I get off my ass...I guess I will find out soon enough...sucks though, since I don't have a readily spare box lying around...

[FC3s Boy]

my n/a FC rx7 runs a 14.8 with my old set up 15-160rwhp ( on a bone stock motor) with my new high comp. ported motor i should be 215-225rwhp . It should be in the 13's easy ( I have nitto 555r's) all of this is out of a 1.3l motor.

[Gen1GT]

my n/a FC rx7 runs a 14.8 with my old set up 15-160rwhp ( on a bone stock motor) with my new high comp. ported motor i should be 215-225rwhp . It should be in the 13's easy ( I have nitto 555r's) all of this is out of a 1.3l motor.
Are you using the stock AFM for that? I'm running one in my car, and I wondered about the upper limits of airflow it was capable of...

Install, I have a G35 in my car, and I run it to 7400 all the time and haven't had any problems. Don't know if that info helps any, since honestly, I really don't know much about the differences in the Mazda trannies other than gear ratios. I know the G is a lot stronger than the F though.

[Installshield 2]

Yeah dude, at this point anything about it helps...It is so ridiculously hard to pinpoint what about these transaxles are weak...A lot of people popped the G15's in stock cars, but from what I remember it was always related to shift forks or something...Which has little to do with the engine's output and speed, and more to do with the shifting technique...

I ripped one with a splintered diff apart, and sent the gear set to a CNC machining shop for hopefully what will be a readily available constant mesh gear set (used the stock set for the design template...not making the constant mesh setup out of the used gear set)...That will eliminate any specific gear and bearing strength problems entirely...But if its the aluminum case that is causing tolerance problems, which it could be, it could make matters worse...

I have very little experience with the internals of gearboxes though...and I am just now starting to understand how the whole mess works...So seeing the inside of this box ( the only manual transaxle I ever saw the guts of in my own hands) didn't really show me anything on its strength...the gears were heavy...the bearings were smooth..and the syncronizers took up a decent amount of teeth width, so maybe that is part of the problem...

The constant mesh setup I am hoping for will have straight cut gears...that are nearly twice as wide as stock (the lack of syncro's allow a lot more room for the actual teeth, without any need of modification to the case itself)...it will be noisy...it will be an asshole to drive on anything but full throttle...but it will handle what I throw at it hopefully...I was just hoping to be able to switch boxes when ever I wanted...If I was taking a trip during the summer and wanted a quite and easy to shift box, I could switch to the stock one...If I had some drag events, or just wanted to rip on it big time for a couple of months...I would switch to the dog box...I don't want to willingly destroy the stock one...so it may come down to babying that one for a bit, until a replacement becomes available...

[20EVOLUTION01]

Cool, I remember more about the time I Broke my tranny. I remember the service guy telling me I had also broken a shift fork plus messed up a syncro. He was suspicious in that it took a lot to break what I had done to the tranny. He asked me if I had caused it and of course I said no(warranty rocks). But I had also asked if the shift forks were weak and if there were any better aftermarket ones. He told me he didn't know but to also take it easy on the tranny. Don't know how much they can hold up but I will try to find out. I feel bad for my car right now cuz I have been treating it like crap, Careless shifting and down shifting. I'm very lucky nothing has happened but maybe it is tougher than I thought. I remember there was this guy on EBAY that was selling his MP3 Flywheel and I was interested in buying it. He also told me he was a Mazda Tech and if I ever had a question to ask him. I will try to asked or try to find out on the internet to see how tough these transmissions are and how much they can hold up. Lets see if I still have his e-mail.

(2thumbs)

[Gen1GT]

I should point out too, that I'm on my second tranny. It's mostly my fault the first one went, with my speed shifting, heel-toe downshifting(wasnly always good at it) and my clutchless shifting. Then one day I let someone else drive my car. He's part of the Toronto Protege Club, and I just assumed he knew how to drive. He managed to break the speedometer pinion gear off inside the tranny. This is a common problem on G35s apparently, since it has happened to the two other GT owners here in Ontario. Anyways, that little gear was bouncing around inside my tranny, breakin shit. No second gear, and 4th popped out, as well as no chance in hell of a 1st gear downshit.

Other than the fact that I beat of the syncros for 2 years, the tranny was fine.

[FC3s Boy]

Are you using the stock AFM for that? I'm running one in my car, and I wondered about the upper limits of airflow it was capable of...

Install, I have a G35 in my car, and I run it to 7400 all the time and haven't had any problems. Don't know if that info helps any, since honestly, I really don't know much about the differences in the Mazda trannies other than gear ratios. I know the G is a lot stronger than the F though.yea i am using the n/a AFM , which is good to the 200whp range on a 7, I also have a turbo II AFM that is going in with the turboII injectors which is enough fuel for 300hp easy. The turbo II afm and n/a afm are interchangable with each other, so if you need a little more fuel for the 1st gen you can always use the turboII afm.

[Glowspeedp5]

Turbos need alot of maintance too. I had a 1988 T bird Turbo Coupe. Stock ran 14.9. With the proper things done to it ran 12.8 then bame is was dead.....

[akhilleus]

Turbo's can definately shorten the life of the engine...especially when u tweek them for more and more boost.