200whp. NA. What does it take?

[Gen1GT]

There are a lot of people who really don't understand the undertaking of 200whp. Instead of me trying to argue the points, here's some links on Miata.net to help you out...

http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=025117
http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013935
http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007211

This is the guy who made the Solomiata website:

pompous (http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000505)
Overdrive
Member # 505

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quote: Originally posted by btlackey:
I guess the next best would be the 99, although that gives up some compression.

I have no doubt the 1999 is a stronger motor. The head flows better, solid lifters, etc... I guess the question is how much better is it? Also, what are the IRTB worth(hp) wise?

All in all there are several racing units difference in price, but it could very well be worth it. One is a "maximum build" and the other is more price conscience. I'm wondering how much I would be giving up with the second option.

Secondly are there any other NA options I'm overlooking? If it was me I'd start with a 99-00 engine. Add 2001 pistons and an aftermarket intake cam of 256-260 and call it a day. HEY, I did do that :-)

My current recipe is:

99 head and intake manifold. Shaved and ported w/VS-855 valve springs (head studs too)
260 intake cam w/adjustable gears to get more overlap
overbored TB
+.5mm 2001 pistons
knifeedged and balanced crank
FM ECU
header

Add to that a 4.44 rear and .75:1 5th gear and you have a strong and torquey street engine capa ble of 9000 rpm if needed.

Randy

[ 02. April 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: RandyS ] Posts: 4140 (http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00000505) | From: Roswell,GA. +.5mm'01 10:1 pistons, '99 head, 94 crank, 1862cc, 154 rwhp/125 ftlb | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged (http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_ip;f=1;t=017796;reply_num=0 00009) |
With all those mods, he's only getting 154hp....

[Matthew]

i just dont think N/A is worth it. i used to, but now that im boosted i see how long and how much money it would cost to get me where im at now. say you DID reach 200whp, how much would you have spent to get to there? how much down time (like having your engine tore up while getting P&P etc) would you have? on the turbo and everything involved ive spent about 3100 so far, as a guesstimate including all the new fluids and everything. if you can get to 200whp for less than that, id shit my pants.

EDIT: and assuming you had the same car as me and DID reach 200whp, id still beat you :( thats not me bragging, thats just saying where you would stand after all that work, and im not even tuned yet.

[mp5jeff]

^^yep, because the car would have to have the rev limiter shifted to around 8k, and you wouldn't make any power untill very top end!, n/a on this motor sucks compared to boost =)

[Matthew]

exactly. every mod with the exception of the pulleys and flywheel give you top end power. and they dont even GIVE you any, just free it up.

[Gen1GT]

You guys are right. Boost is the way to go if want cheap power. A LITTLE bit more power is much more reliable than forced induction, but 200whp(probably 235flywheel) from a 1.8 or 2.0 that wasn't made by Honda is severely stressful. It can be done, and it can be done to be reliable, but would take $20,000. By reliable, I mean 10,000-15,000km out of the engine before a rebuild.

I need to let you guys know, I'm all about NA power. I just wanted people to know where they stand when it comes to making it.....

I also want to say, you hear about the poor rod ratio that the BP has, but we have forged rods, and no-one has even heard of anyone breaking a rod, or spinning a bearing. http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018913#000003

So my car has the advantage being able to turn 8500rpm without problems, even with my poor rod ratio.

So why do we want to make NA power all you turbo guys must be asking? Becuase it's hard, not because it's easy. It's a challenge, and it's very fulfilling. It sounds better, feels better, revs quicker, has better engine braking, and is more fun to drive, even with less power. We do it because no-one else does.

[Gen1GT]

^^yep, because the car would have to have the rev limiter shifted to around 8k, and you wouldn't make any power untill very top end!, n/a on this motor sucks compared to boost =)
I'm planning on running to 8500rpm, with a peak around 7500, but still huge gains over stock from 5000rpm up. You have to sacrafice below 3000, but that's what they made gearboxes for.....beside, you can't beat the sound of a nice, fat, lopey 1000rpm idle.....(bowdown)

[PR5Matt]

You guys are right. Boost is the way to go if want cheap power. A LITTLE bit more power is much more reliable than forced induction, but 200whp(probably 235flywheel) from a 1.8 or 2.0 that wasn't made by Honda is severely stressful. It can be done, and it can be done to be reliable, but would take $20,000. By reliable, I mean 10,000-15,000km out of the engine before a rebuild.

I need to let you guys know, I'm all about NA power. I just wanted people to know where they stand when it comes to making it.....

I also want to say, you hear about the poor rod ratio that the BP has, but we have forged rods, and no-one has even heard of anyone breaking a rod, or spinning a bearing. http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018913#000003

So my car has the advantage being able to turn 8500rpm without problems, even with my poor rod ratio.

So why do we want to make NA power all you turbo guys must be asking? Becuase it's hard, not because it's easy. It's a challenge, and it's very fulfilling. It sounds better, feels better, revs quicker, has better engine braking, and is more fun to drive, even with less power. We do it because no-one else does.
Please! fOCUS guys have done this with the Zetec for less money than boosted (stock shortblock), and the new Ford/Cosworth/Mazda 2.3 should do it easily. The new fOCUS ST has been putting down 130s to the wheels stock and that is supposed to be a 153hp motor (flywheel). The PZEV fOCUS 2.3 (which is an emissions version with 145hp) has been putting out high 150s at the wheels with just exhaust, cold air, cam gears, and a UDP. The aftermarket is just staring to get revved up for cams etc. Mazda 3 guys are going to benifit from alot of this stuff. So to conclude, you can take your torqueless Hondas and run'em off a cliff.

Hell BTW, I outran a highly modified 1.6B Civic Si with my old bolt-on modified fOCUS. Torque rules.

Two Honda kills:http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3282

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2846

What real torque will do for ya: http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6865

[Gen1GT]

Please! fOCUS guys have done this with the Zetec for less money than boosted (stock shortblock), and the new Ford/Cosworth/Mazda 2.3 should do it easily. The new fOCUS ST has been putting down 130s to the wheels stock and that is supposed to be a 153hp motor (flywheel). The PZEV fOCUS 2.3 (which is an emissions version with 145hp) has been putting out high 150s at the wheels with just exhaust, cold air, cam gears, and a UDP. The aftermarket is just staring to get revved up for cams etc. Mazda 3 guys are going to benifit from alot of this stuff. So to conclude, you can take your torqueless Hondas and run'em off a cliff.

Hell BTW, I outran a highly modified 1.6B Civic Si with my old bolt-on modified fOCUS. Torque rules.

Two Honda kills:http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3282

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2846

What real torque will do for ya: http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6865
When I was talking about the Hondas, I was talking about how they have 100hp/L from the factory. The new 2.3s should EASILY put out 200whp with the right mods. I'm talking about a 1.8 and 2.0 here. Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....

[Replica]

When I was talking about the Hondas, I was talking about how they have 100hp/L from the factory. The new 2.3s should EASILY put out 200whp with the right mods. I'm talking about a 1.8 and 2.0 here. Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....Displacement is nice, but a B16 is a waaay better motor than a BP. There just isn't anything to debate.

[Minus]

depends on how you define better i suppose. im sure our engines could scream if we had the aftermarket support that hondas get. if we had larger companies sitting around playing with a protege for months trying to make it faster then im sure our motors would be lots better. im waiting for greddy or apex'i or someone to get ahold of a p5 and just blow it away

[03MSPRO]

the FS engine is not made to rev high

[Gen1GT]

As we speak, the 3rd gens have the worst aftermarket support for engines. Because we share the 1.8 of the Miata, we get to borrow all their goodies. The FS is starting to get support, but it's still small. They have many more chassis parts available though.

The new 2.0 and 2.3 will be a different story though, since the aftermarket has already jumped on them.

It's true that the B-Series hondas are much better than the BP. The BP was designed to be boosted, so it's super hard work to make NA power. The most ANY Miata guy is making on the street is 180whp. Still stout, but some race prepped BPs are making 250hp though.

My goal is 170whp, but honestly, if I'm making 154(180crank), I'll be happy.

[Replica]

Nice rod bearings make anything rev high.

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I'm planning on running to 8500rpm, with a peak around 7500, but still huge gains over stock from 5000rpm up. You have to sacrafice below 3000, but that's what they made gearboxes for.....beside, you can't beat the sound of a nice, fat, lopey 1000rpm idle.....(bowdown)Well all i have to say is don't get cunningham rods if u plan on going up to 7500 prm or above. Try calling our old enginer builder... jim at sunbelt. Our cars are pushing what you want but then again its a race motor that gets beat all the time and blow up. We have a new engine builder for us now. You can call comptechusa and ask them for some more info.

[Gen1GT]

Nice rod bearings make anything rev high.
Not quiet THAT easy. A well balanced and blueprinted engine helps. But when your rod breaks at the bolt head when you're trying to spin a cast rod at 9000RPMs with a 1.50 rod ratio, bearings do nothing.....

[Replica]

Not quiet THAT easy. A well balanced and blueprinted engine helps. But when your rod breaks at the bolt head when you're trying to spin a cast rod at 9000RPMs with a 1.50 rod ratio, bearings do nothing.....Within reason....chances are, a FS-DE wont be making much power at 9k anyway.

[Gen1GT]

Well all i have to say is don't get cunningham rods if u plan on going up to 7500 prm or above. Try calling our old enginer builder... jim at sunbelt. Our cars are pushing what you want but then again its a race motor that gets beat all the time and blow up. We have a new engine builder for us now. You can call comptechusa and ask them for some more info.
Stock BP rods will be fine. As far as anyone's known, no-one has ever broken a rod in a BP, even with 400whp. I'll deburr, polish and shot-peen them, and they should be good for 10,000rpm if I choose. Most guys run 9000rpm every now and again, 8000 being the norm. One guy missed a shift and hit 13,000 and nothing blew....

[Gen1GT]

Within reason....chances are, a FS-DE wont be making much power at 9k anyway.
true....

[Glowspeedp5]

LOL, I had a 1991 Escort GT with the Mazda BP motor. Myself along with Thomas Potter who has an 1993 escort GT started doing small experiments with N/A on our cars. Well to top if off with just a mild cams, no intake and header I was busting 15.4 in the quarter. I bought pacesetter header and exhaust with a weapon r intake along with miata adjustable cam gears and dropp to 15.00 flat. I decked the head bored the throttle body got even more mild cams running on 110 oct and busted my best time of 13.6 @ 120 mph. All Motor. The funny thing was when I dyno it and it only had 160 WHP I just laughed. I was beating cars with more whp then me....
Also during our build up process many people said that the ecu would have problems that is false because ob1 learn with mods.

Now with the 2002 protege5 it will be easy to get to 200 whp which means 225 hp at the crank. You already have the pistons from mazda of japan. Rods 350 get some custom rods. Titian vaves and springs are coming out soon. Cams stage 2 and 3 coming out. Ecu can go fine to 200 crank horsepower after that need haltech.(mazdaspeed rep and jim @sunbelt) I already know I can beat you gen1 gt. All motor.

[SpicyMchaggis]

i sleep with a gt28rs under my pillow..waiting for the turbo fairy to come and leave me 10,000$.

[Gen1GT]

LOL, I had a 1991 Escort GT with the Mazda BP motor. Myself along with Thomas Potter who has an 1993 escort GT started doing small experiments with N/A on our cars. Well to top if off with just a mild cams, no intake and header I was busting 15.4 in the quarter. I bought pacesetter header and exhaust with a weapon r intake along with miata adjustable cam gears and dropp to 15.00 flat. I decked the head bored the throttle body got even more mild cams running on 110 oct and busted my best time of 13.6 @ 120 mph. All Motor. The funny thing was when I dyno it and it only had 160 WHP I just laughed. I was beating cars with more whp then me....
Also during our build up process many people said that the ecu would have problems that is false because ob1 learn with mods.

Now with the 2002 protege5 it will be easy to get to 200 whp which means 225 hp at the crank. You already have the pistons from mazda of japan. Rods 350 get some custom rods. Titian vaves and springs are coming out soon. Cams stage 2 and 3 coming out. Ecu can go fine to 200 crank horsepower after that need haltech.(mazdaspeed rep and jim @sunbelt) I already know I can beat you gen1 gt. All motor.
Show me dyno charts and timeslips.

You COULD NOT get 200whp out of a stock FS ECU.
Your Protege is faster than mine? Prove it....

[PR5Matt]

When I was talking about the Hondas, I was talking about how they have 100hp/L from the factory. The new 2.3s should EASILY put out 200whp with the right mods. I'm talking about a 1.8 and 2.0 here. Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....
Don't be a smart ass. Yea I am proud, becuase in this Post Fast and Furious world guys tink that Hondas can conquer the world. Plus, they had 160hp stock and then wher modified to boot, but wer so torqueless, they could't out run my 130hp bolt-on 2.0. I also weighed more. So.....(bird)

[Gen1GT]

Don't be a smart ass. Yea I am proud, becuase in this Post Fast and Furious world guys tink that Hondas can conquer the world. Plus, they had 160hp stock and then wher modified to boot, but wer so torqueless, they could't out run my 130hp bolt-on 2.0. I also weighed more. So.....(bird)
It must have been a bad driver then, because they do 15.7 stock. If it was heavily modified he would smoke you. My point is that the car is only a 1.6, but look how much respect it got. You were proud that you beat it.

[Replica]

My point is that the car is only a 1.6, but look how much respect it got. You were proud that you beat it.Hammer + Nail = Head

[PR5Matt]

LOL, I had a 1991 Escort GT with the Mazda BP motor. Myself along with Thomas Potter who has an 1993 escort GT started doing small experiments with N/A on our cars. Well to top if off with just a mild cams, no intake and header I was busting 15.4 in the quarter. I bought pacesetter header and exhaust with a weapon r intake along with miata adjustable cam gears and dropp to 15.00 flat. I decked the head bored the throttle body got even more mild cams running on 110 oct and busted my best time of 13.6 @ 120 mph. All Motor. The funny thing was when I dyno it and it only had 160 WHP I just laughed. I was beating cars with more whp then me....
Also during our build up process many people said that the ecu would have problems that is false because ob1 learn with mods.

Now with the 2002 protege5 it will be easy to get to 200 whp which means 225 hp at the crank. You already have the pistons from mazda of japan. Rods 350 get some custom rods. Titian vaves and springs are coming out soon. Cams stage 2 and 3 coming out. Ecu can go fine to 200 crank horsepower after that need haltech.(mazdaspeed rep and jim @sunbelt) I already know I can beat you gen1 gt. All motor.
That old Escort weighet a little less than most compacts today. That helped.(yes)

[PR5Matt]

It must have been a bad driver then, because they do 15.7 stock. If it was heavily modified he would smoke you. My point is that the car is only a 1.6, but look how much respect it got. You were proud that you beat it.Sorry, but we were at a roll each time dude. They are mostly hype. I was pud that I beat it becuase of all the shit talk and hype that goes on in the Honda. Sorry, but in my mind these little cars we have should be enjoyed for what they are. Whe should have unrealistic expectations. Ther is a difference between enjoyably quick car (a good running compact) and a genuinely fast car ( a new Cobra, Vette, Lighting, Evo, etc.). I just get sick of all of this damn Honda hype. Sure they can be made to run good at the track if they are gutted pretty good, but you have to be realistic. Cubes rule, and torque is king. Which would you rater have in a Pro car of the same weight: a 2.0 liter turboed and nitroused 4cyl, or a turboed (and nitroused too but you wouldn't need it) 400ci v-8?

You should be proud of how well you car runs. That is a good time, but there are always things like driver ability (like you mentioned) and weight, power curve, traction etc. When I raced that one Si we were rolling but I still spun through 1st and most of 2nd becuase of a lack of a posi diff and torque. he didn't spin at all so I had to catch him. The two Honda races were not affected by driver ability, just the fact that at the speeds wer ere going, my superior torque ruled. I raced a Spec V Sentra and beat it really bad. He was behind me when I nailed it in 3rd and I pulled him by the time I topped out by at least 4 car links. I really think that guy couldn't drive even at a 50mph roll, because those cars have enough torque that he should have been able get a litle closer that he did. He must not have known how to shift. I heard he got out run by a Toyota Tacoma.

If I really want to race I'll use my Lightning, Mustang, or my Dad's ranger coon-hunt'n truck (base, base model [about 2700lbs] with a slightly modified 89 5.0 HO motor). It scares the hell out of people when it goes buy with faded paint, dog box and all.(yes)

[Gen1GT]

That old Escort weighet a little less than most compacts today. That helped.(yes)
I have what is essentially the EXACT SAME CAR. The Escort is a BG chassis Protege, and the GT has the very same BP I have in mine. We both weigh around 2350lbs. I'm not saying the car wasn't capable of being quick, but not that FAST, and not that much hp from a stock computer.

Allow yourself to come to those same conclusions with these sites. Remember, 120mph in a 2350lb car.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm

And, 160whp(188 flywheel hp assuming 18% drivetrain loss. Flywheel hp has to be used for the equation) from the stock computer(1.8). Max duty cycle for satefy reasons SHOULD be 80%, but even go ahead and try it with 100%(which means injectors are ALWAYS open). Stock fuel pressure is about 43psi. Brake specific fuel consumption is high for the BP, so say .50. Stock injectors are 230cc/min. Scroll down to the worksheet. Do your work...

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

That's why I'm calling BS.....

[Replica]

A car with 120hp and 2350 sounds like a high 16....

[mp5jeff]

that guys not trapping 120, gimme a fucking break...

[Replica]

Opps. that was trap and not whp. Blah, whatever, I'm going to go take a crap.

[Matthew]

a little o/t: is the mp5 loss 18% also?

[PR5Matt]

I have what is essentially the EXACT SAME CAR. The Escort is a BG chassis Protege, and the GT has the very same BP I have in mine. We both weigh around 2350lbs. I'm not saying the car wasn't capable of being quick, but not that FAST, and not that much hp from a stock computer.

Allow yourself to come to those same conclusions with these sites. Remember, 120mph in a 2350lb car.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm

And, 160whp(188 flywheel hp assuming 18% drivetrain loss. Flywheel hp has to be used for the equation) from the stock computer(1.8). Max duty cycle for satefy reasons SHOULD be 80%, but even go ahead and try it with 100%(which means injectors are ALWAYS open). Stock fuel pressure is about 43psi. Brake specific fuel consumption is high for the BP, so say .50. Stock injectors are 230cc/min. Scroll down to the worksheet. Do your work...

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

That's why I'm calling BS.....

I don't believe a 13.6 either. I am just saying a modified Escort GT with that motor can be made to run with the newer iron because of its light weight.

I doubt that that motor was running a low imedence injector so they could run full static, and even then they would be severly pushing it. The 2.3 Turbo I am doing for my brother in-law's Merkur (look at my website) is a low impedence injector motor from the factory (though we are switching to a stand-alone SDS system, and we are getting ready to upgrade to a BIG Precision turbo. We are going to at least a 84lb injector.

[mp5jeff]

..someone trapping 120 and running a high 13 is the worst driver evAr(unless its a supra!)...its bs anyways so who cares! damn trolls...

[mp5jeff]

my buddy with a stock escort gt ran a 15.1 at 90mph, he ran 3 times all were around the same, It has some serious weight reduction though, but the motor is untouched =)

[PR5Matt]

It would be a fun sleeper. I remember when they first came out that Kaufmann Engineering had one with a Nitrous Oxide Systems kit and it ran high 13s.

[Matthew]

a little o/t: is the mp5 loss 18% also?

[mp5jeff]

yea matt, its around that...

[Gen1GT]

I don't believe a 13.6 either. I am just saying a modified Escort GT with that motor can be made to run with the newer iron because of its light weight.

I doubt that that motor was running a low imedence injector so they could run full static, and even then they would be severly pushing it. The 2.3 Turbo I am doing for my brother in-law's Merkur (look at my website) is a low impedence injector motor from the factory (though we are switching to a stand-alone SDS system, and we are getting ready to upgrade to a BIG Precision turbo. We are going to at least a 84lb injector.
You're right, BPs have high-impedance(saturated) injectors. There's no way in hell you can run more than 80% on a saturated injector.

[PR5Matt]

You're right, BPs have high-impedance(saturated) injectors. There's no way in hell you can run more than 80% on a saturated injector.
Also with those injector calculators you have to understand that mostdon't take rpm into account. The answers usually are okay to around 6000 rpm, then you have to add some percentage to the outcome to account for more rpm. The injector will increase in duty cycle along with rpm. Be careful!

[Installshield 2]

Hey ladies...whoever claims it will take 20,000 clams to make an FS run 200whp is seriously confused...Roger Foo's Circuit City/H&R sponsored yellow P5 was pushing over 240whp with an engine R&D budget of $13,000...Note that a lot of that money also went into the guessing of what specs to use, not just buying the parts...and that was nearly 2 years ago, and we didn't even have a regular forged internal manufacturer on our side yet...

According to SCC his track prepped engines cost a little over 9 grand a pop...Redlined at 9200 rpm; where required to use "most" of the internal specs and dimensions (obviously not compression)...was extremely peaky...and lasted about 3 full races each...

1stgen...I don't know why you keep implying that no one knows what it takes to do this...I have not once seen someone claiming they were going to make 200whp for cheap NA...last september Twilight, Sundevil, Akhilleus, me, and some other dudes agreed that a realistic streetable cap on NA ouput would be more around 190whp...thats the limit most likely, for the street anyway...but I guarantee that could be done for a fuck of a lot cheaper than you think (if you are thinking 10 grand)...

Your BP stuff is skewing this...a BP is much "healthier" engine to begin with...I will get into that in a little bit, but I have way to much calculus to have fun with...

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

Hey ladies...whoever claims it will take 20,000 clams to make an FS run 200whp is seriously confused...Roger Foo's Circuit City/H&R sponsored yellow P5 was pushing over 240whp with an engine R&D budget of $13,000...Note that a lot of that money also went into the guessing of what specs to use, not just buying the parts...and that was nearly 2 years ago, and we didn't even have a regular forged internal manufacturer on our side yet...

According to SCC his track prepped engines cost a little over 9 grand a pop...Redlined at 9200 rpm; where required to use "most" of the internal specs and dimensions (obviously not compression)...was extremely peaky...and lasted about 3 full races each...

1stgen...I don't know why you keep implying that no one knows what it takes to do this...I have not once seen someone claiming they were going to make 200whp for cheap NA...last september Twilight, Sundevil, Akhilleus, me, and some other dudes agreed that a realistic streetable cap on NA ouput would be more around 190whp...thats the limit most likely, for the street anyway...but I guarantee that could be done for a fuck of a lot cheaper than you think (if you are thinking 10 grand)...

Your BP stuff is skewing this...a BP is much "healthier" engine to begin with...I will get into that in a little bit, but I have way to much calculus to have fun with...
i seriously doubt it was 240 whp. Our cars aren't even pushing that to the wheels. I dont know were he got his engine built but our engines use to cost 30k...

[Gen1GT]

Ya, I'm not sure about that. R&D probably cost $13 alone. What about parts and labour. I'm sorry, but just the parts for a 240whp engine, that originally had 130crank..well. Motec would cost $6,000 just by itself. Getting an engine fully blueprinted and balanced would cost $6000.

Install, this isn't a continuation of the imfamous 'FS Cams..' thread. So no-one's even argueing that anymore, I just wanted to share some information I had come across about what it takes to make NA power.

[Installshield 2]

i seriously doubt it was 240 whp. Our cars aren't even pushing that to the wheels. I dont know were he got his engine built but our engines use to cost 30k...
I stand corrected...actually you are correct that the article mentioned the goal was 240whp, and that they were "within 10whp on ridiculous compression"...which bordered on the reason for such frequent grenades...but being that is mentione that it was "extremely peaky" maybe they were pretty close...They claimed although the engine was making great peak power, they were having trouble with usable powerband (was an on/off type of band)...and that a lot more research needed to be done to remedy that...

that article was pretty old though...Someone PDF'd it and stuck on the pclub a while ago...but that kid left that board and took all of his articles with him...

and why the hell did they cost 30k? Sunbelt's engines? the most expensive engines I heard from them were in the $17,000 neighborhood...what all did you guys do to it?...were you forging titanium blocks, rods, pistons, cranks, heads...etc (that is a rhetorical question, I believe the SCCA rules for the Speed cars are against that)

In either case I still think this is getting screwed up...The FS is inefficient for breathing from the factory...so clear that up...start with high quality bolt-ons...forget about an intake at first, you can build a better one later...But after you get rid of the stock downpipe (#2 most restrictive stock piece...AWR header fixes that)...get started on the ECU...absolutely nothing other than a standalone...NOTHING will happen without a standalone...If you are on a crazy budget you can look into a Link Plus2 EMS pnp, which will come in just under 1 grand...but no learning abiltiy, if you don't have easy access to a dyno all the time look into Nick's AEM pnp...after the new ECU is in there, pull the engine...starting looking into low rod ratio'd engine's cam specs...do a ton of research and learn about why the FS sucks so bad at high rpm (and what you do about it)...wait to mess with the cams until last...rip the head off and look into new valves (bigger intake) and assorted equipment associated with them...then deal with the forged internals...I went with aluminum for speeds sake...but may not again...with a static CR of around 12:1 you can definately get north of 150whp, as long as its tuned properly...and you can still deal with some knife-edging of the crank for even more weight savings...

Then get start figuring the cam specs to complete everything...with high tensile internals, and a newly balanced crank 7500rpm + should not be too much of an order...There may be some harmonic related worries, that I am worried about right now, come into play...but we are not going for reliability right now...anyway you can then get some good porting work done and a 2.5" exhaust or so...that should be all you need for excellent power...

again I am guessing that you will not make more than 190whp with street gas out of this thing...that theoretically is nearly 220bhp out of a 2.0l engine...But it CAN be done...its not cheap, its not easy, but it definately is possible...and the work I mentioned above will not cost nearly $20,000 (at least with whats now available), even if you don't do any of the work yourself...

[Installshield 2]

Ya, I'm not sure about that. R&D probably cost $13 alone. What about parts and labour. I'm sorry, but just the parts for a 240whp engine, that originally had 130crank..well. Motec would cost $6,000 just by itself. Getting an engine fully blueprinted and balanced would cost $6000.

Install, this isn't a continuation of the imfamous 'FS Cams..' thread. So no-one's even argueing that anymore, I just wanted to share some information I had come across about what it takes to make NA power.
No No No dude...I know, I am not trying to argue with you...didn't mean to come off like a cock...These are my favorite debates anyway, you started a thread designed just for it...

So first of all...You do not need a $6,000 motec for this app...it will have so much more control than you would ever need on this dinosaur...a lot of racers prefer them do to familiarity with the software...but almost every standalone properly tuned will give you the same power...

I probably should have ditched that article...I agree it appears to have some holes...But I have very little actuall info on the FS as far as this, and the not very many people have even begun to push it yet...

I do not have any quotes for a full blue print...but according to my definition that completes the entire thing...that leaves no work to be done, other than mild porting and polishing (and that is even included in some apps)...So $6,000 would get you a completely built, balanced, and race ready track engine...

[Gen1GT]

No No No dude...I know, I am not trying to argue with you...didn't mean to come off like a cock...These are my favorite debates anyway, you started a thread designed just for it...

So first of all...You do not need a $6,000 motec for this app...it will have so much more control than you would ever need on this dinosaur...a lot of racers prefer them do to familiarity with the software...but almost every standalone properly tuned will give you the same power...

I probably should have ditched that article...I agree it appears to have some holes...But I have very little actuall info on the FS as far as this, and the not very many people have even begun to push it yet...

I do not have any quotes for a full blue print...but according to my definition that completes the entire thing...that leaves no work to be done, other than mild porting and polishing (and that is even included in some apps)...So $6,000 would get you a completely built, balanced, and race ready track engine...
I meant that the SCCA guys are probably using Motec. Me personally, my goal is only 170whp, so I'm going to use the stock ECU with E-Manage. I'm not going to give up ANY drivability, and the issues created with stand-alones. Link and Haltech are both great. I'd go with the Link, because 90% of the Miata guys run them, and I'd know where to turn for help.

If you know your way around a mircometer and a dial guage, you can do 50% of the blueprinting yourself. Which can save BAGS of money. That's how I'm doing it. The only thing I'm not doing myself is all the machine work of course. It's all the little things that add up there...gaskets, bearings, balancing, etc

[Installshield 2]

yeah you BP guys are blessed with a much more forgiving ECU...We are stuck with the digital equivalent of Heinrich Himmler...But we have some standalones with full learning capablitlies, and with a wideband you can target a/f's and make an extremely driveable and streetable high ouptut NA engine...like you mentioned the nonlearning systems, such as the Link and I believe the haltech's (at least the E6X's) can be much more troublesome for a daily driver...

[twilightprotege]

ps install, i'd leave the intake valves alone and make the exhaust valves as close to the same diameter as the intakes as possible. dont forget with NA engines it's all about effiency. with big intake valves you can get heaps of air in there, but you cant get it out

obviously cam sizes can adjust this (reason why i'm having to get my intake cam re-worked smaller), but with bigger exhaust valves, you can keep that huge intake cam there :D

[Installshield 2]

Very True...I was going to use a "back door" attempt, in order to get better scavaging effects through the overlap specs though...With a proper header and good exhaust diameter, you can really take advantage of the right cams in relation to scavaging...As in pulling fresh air into the chambers before TDC of the finishing exhaust stroke/beginning intake stroke during valve overlap...by means of exhaust vacuum...On most low rod'd engines; "slightly" larger intake valves, with a good scuffing of the ports can benefit air flow exponentially...We are hampered by a small bore stock, which leaves us with fairly small valves stock...

You are very correct that the exhaust valving is important too in all this breathing...But that also goes back to how fast our pistons move at a given rpm...The rod angles give extremely good torque, and therefore give extremely powerful exhausts pulses fairly low in the rpm range...That is one reason our stock pipe system gets choked up so quick...it is of decent diameter, but the FS spews exhaust pulses like crazy, even at lower rpm...

So in short the FS will never have too much of a problem pushing exhaust out quickly...The lack of piston dwell though makes it extremely important to take advantage of scavaging as much as possible...

[twilightprotege]

i c....so you're going that way....arrhhhh....i'm trying to go the volumetric efficiency way...

for those who dont know what that is...that's basically what goes in, goes out at the same speed and volume. see with my head work, the exhaust side only flow apx 80% of the intake side, so in theory, the intake side cam (area) should be 20% smaller for maximum efficiency...and therefore maximum torque (note i say torque not hp)

[Gen1GT]

i c....so you're going that way....arrhhhh....i'm trying to go the volumetric efficiency way...

for those who dont know what that is...that's basically what goes in, goes out at the same speed and volume. see with my head work, the exhaust side only flow apx 80% of the intake side, so in theory, the intake side cam (area) should be 20% smaller for maximum efficiency...and therefore maximum torque (note i say torque not hp)
Are you talking about intake/exhaust bias? Because VM the amount of charge that actually enters the combusion chamber as a percentage of the size of the combustion chamber. ie, if you have a 450cc combustion chamber, and you pull in 405cc worth of air/fuel, then you have 90% Volumetric Efficiency. You will always have peak torque at peak VM.

[Installshield 2]

Man I love these discussions...Also note that it is virtually impossible to have similar volumetric efficiency throughout the entire rev-band, which is why you shoot for specs on your intended peak output...

That may be redundant, but just trying to keep it simple in case any NOobOtz are reading...

On a further not Gen1GT...I publically apoligize for everything degrading or shitty I said in the "old" thread...I didn't mean to come off like a dick...You definately know your shit, and are definately worth having around...regardless of which engine you actually modify...

[Gen1GT]

Man I love these discussions...Also note that it is virtually impossible to have similar volumetric efficiency throughout the entire rev-band, which is why you shoot for specs on your intended peak output...

That may be redundant, but just trying to keep it simple in case any NOobOtz are reading...

On a further not Gen1GT...I publically apoligize for everything degrading or shitty I said in the "old" thread...I didn't mean to come off like a dick...You definately know your shit, and are definately worth having around...regardless of which engine you actually modify...
Hey, thanks man. That means a lot, since I know you really know your shit too. There are a lot more informative and educated guys on this board than some others I've been on. I may get in trouble for mentioning it, but on the Toronto Protege Club board, it's all a bunch of idiots asking, "how do I install lighted washer nozzels?" or claiming, "I got 16hp from my CAI!"

With you guys, I can share real information, or ask real questions and know it's being said in the right place. I honestly can't wait to see how everyone's build turns out. I'll probably always be the skeptic though, which can be good sometimes to keep everyone grounded. (flash)

[twilightprotege]

yeah you definately cant have 100% (or more) VE at low rpm and expect the engine to produce heaps of power at high rpm (and vice versa), but i think that if i can aim to have the intake side flowing the same amount as the exhaust side (by making the intake cam smaller), that'll be the best way to get as much power NA as i can

[Gen1GT]

yeah you definately cant have 100% (or more) VE at low rpm and expect the engine to produce heaps of power at high rpm (and vice versa), but i think that if i can aim to have the intake side flowing the same amount as the exhaust side (by making the intake cam smaller), that'll be the best way to get as much power NA as i can
Where your car makes peak torque, that's also where you have highest volumetric efficiency. Miata guys have making good results with an intake side flow bias.....

[Glowspeedp5]

Okay you can say bullshit, Dudes on crack, so on and so forth but I am stating fact. Many morons said the same shit until I should up at an import fest and took first place. The stock ecu handle that with stock injectors. I actually lost HP when I used the MAF from an RX7. I used 7-11 material to reduce heat soak in the intake manifold and throttle body. 7-11 material is a high temp carbon material that is 1/4thick. After running the car hard for an hour you could put your hand on the intake without being burnt. Also you are pushing in cool air not hot heat soak air. If you want me to pull out physics and formula I will.

If you take a BP head shave (aka DECK IT) .80 you will raise the compression ratio to 10.35 to 1. I then got rods and pistons and raised the compression ratio to 13 to 1 with stock ecu. If I was to get haltech I would probably be in the 12's. If you use your mind and not listen to what other people have to say you do fine. I

Looking at the 2.0 fs motor it easy to make 200 whp. But the key factor this time is the ecu. OB2 computers learn but not intense like the OB1. So Haltech or another one.

If you want a fast turbo and cannot get a GTR or GTX bp motor go to the salvage yard and get a 1.8 bp SOHC motor or just the block that compression ratio is 8.0 to 1 then put a DOHC head onto it raises the compression ratio to 8.25 to 1. Then put a t3 or t4 turbo at 20 psi. Just look at miata magzine several of those guys did that and look at what they can do...

[Gen1GT]

Okay you can say bullshit, Dudes on crack, so on and so forth but I am stating fact. Many morons said the same shit until I should up at an import fest and took first place. The stock ecu handle that with stock injectors. I actually lost HP when I used the MAF from an RX7. I used 7-11 material to reduce heat soak in the intake manifold and throttle body. 7-11 material is a high temp carbon material that is 1/4thick. After running the car hard for an hour you could put your hand on the intake without being burnt. Also you are pushing in cool air not hot heat soak air. If you want me to pull out physics and formula I will.

If you take a BP head shave (aka DECK IT) .80 you will raise the compression ratio to 10.35 to 1. I then got rods and pistons and raised the compression ratio to 13 to 1 with stock ecu. If I was to get haltech I would probably be in the 12's. If you use your mind and not listen to what other people have to say you do fine. I

Looking at the 2.0 fs motor it easy to make 200 whp. But the key factor this time is the ecu. OB2 computers learn but not intense like the OB1. So Haltech or another one.

If you want a fast turbo and cannot get a GTR or GTX bp motor go to the salvage yard and get a 1.8 bp SOHC motor or just the block that compression ratio is 8.0 to 1 then put a DOHC head onto it raises the compression ratio to 8.25 to 1. Then put a t3 or t4 turbo at 20 psi. Just look at miata magzine several of those guys did that and look at what they can do...
I'm not catching everying you're saying here. You couldn't deck the BP head .80, because you'd cut the valves right off first of all. Secondly, what computer you choose to use has nothing to do with compression ratio. Are you going to sit there and tell me that stock computer and injectors can handle 160whp?

The FS CAN make 200whp, but not EASY.....

You showed up at importfest and took first place. You need to be more specific. Was this a drag event? Took first place in what? You won bracket racing or you had the fastest car? You had a BP, making how much power?

You're very vague and hard to understand.....

[Glowspeedp5]

I'm not catching everying you're saying here. You couldn't deck the BP head .80, because you'd cut the valves right off first of all. Secondly, what computer you choose to use has nothing to do with compression ratio. Are you going to sit there and tell me that stock computer and injectors can handle 160whp?

The FS CAN make 200whp, but not EASY.....

You showed up at importfest and took first place. You need to be more specific. Was this a drag event? Took first place in what? You won bracket racing or you had the fastest car? You had a BP, making how much power?

You're very vague and hard to understand.....

Let me repeat myself. First off your are the vague one.

1)I did type .80 and it should be .080
2)No shit sherlock. I said I USED THE STOCK ECU with 13 to 1 compression ratio. The car did 13.5. I did not get all of its power out of the step up because I did not have a stand alone computer.

It was battle of the imports 2000 at Capital Raceway in Crofton, Maryland. I Got second place the year before. (BRACKET) All Motor without Motor swap. Also you can put the Probe gt 2.5 probe motor in your car but that is a waste.

Just think about weight. I was running @ the wheels 181 whp.

Bull Frog aka GUDE makes a kit like what I explained. It will make your car run in the 14's in the quarter mile. Just do your research. Learn from others. AKA read about Honda motors, early ford v4 motors.

Oh in the ford escort gt 91-96 had three diffrent computers.
91 -93(OB1) mazda
93-94(OB1) misitbishie
95-96 (OB2)Ford
Don't believe go to a junk yard and go look...........

Stock transaxle go to 225 whp
Stock computer is good to 180whp..
Want bigger injectors 2nd generation Toyota Supra injectors. Along with Fuel pump plugs right in.

[Gen1GT]

Dude what's your problem? You word things in a way no-one can understand, then you get pissy because someone questions it. It's not my fault you made typos. Try using punctuation.
I then got rods and pistons and raised the compression ratio to 13 to 1 with stock ecu. That should have said, "I then got rods and pistons WHICH raised the compression ratio to 13:1; with stock ECU"

Secondly, I know plenty enough about cars and how they work, but I'm constantly doing research because you can never know enough. I've learned nothing from what you've chimed in with.

You were running 181whp with what engine? A BP? If so, please tell me your secret.

[p5sundevil]

great thread man, i loved all the old NA threads but they always truned into an argument with the trolls telling us that WE said we were gonna make 200whp on the cheap and that is not what anyone ever said. I believe both me and twilight had/have goals of about 170-175whp but if I got 155-160 Id be a very happy man. Basically I am going the standard route most peole go
I/H/E
cams
cam gears
pulleys/flywheel(doesnt really do much)
P&P head and intake mani and then Id be done except maybe an ecu upgrade in the form of a piggyback or inline setup to help with timing, air/fuel and so forth.

Out of everyone else in this thread, except maybe glowboy there, i am happy to claim i know the least, and even happier Im learning so much here and now.

edit: thought Id add that I am still borderline FI/NA, i knida would like to see myself to a mild NA buildup to 130whp or so and tehn do a small FI project boosting 5-8psi and see what that does. This seems to be what intrigues me the most right now, since most people go FI or NA I figure why not both =)

[twilightprotege]

sundevil and all - dyno for my engine is only 3 weeks away :D then we'll start to see what a FS can start to do. it will be by no means the finished figure. still have lots to do and HEAPS to tune...

[hi-perf]

great thread man, i loved all the old NA threads but they always truned into an argument with the trolls telling us that WE said we were gonna make 200whp on the cheap and that is not what anyone ever said. I believe both me and twilight had/have goals of about 170-175whp but if I got 155-160 Id be a very happy man. Basically I am going the standard route most peole go
I/H/E
cams
cam gears
pulleys/flywheel(doesnt really do much)
P&P head and intake mani and then Id be done except maybe an ecu upgrade in the form of a piggyback or inline setup to help with timing, air/fuel and so forth.

Out of everyone else in this thread, except maybe glowboy there, i am happy to claim i know the least, and even happier Im learning so much here and now.

edit: thought Id add that I am still borderline FI/NA, i knida would like to see myself to a mild NA buildup to 130whp or so and tehn do a small FI project boosting 5-8psi and see what that does. This seems to be what intrigues me the most right now, since most people go FI or NA I figure why not both =)
haha you cant be both, sadly.

fi = forced induction
na = naturally/normally aspirated

as soon as you throw a turbo on youre fi, regardless if you have a built motor or not.

^^^ at least i think that was what you were trying to say

[Gen1GT]

If it weren't for the engine I'm blueprinting now, I could be spending all my time and energy on the car I'm driving. I don't even plan on having it done til next summer, so I really should be putting it off and working on my car. ie headers, cams, E-Manage etc.

I'm still looking forward to what you guys do though. With all the talk we've had about it, I can't wait to see what kind of numbers an NA FS can put out.

[Installshield 2]

Hi-Perf..you hear people mention that all the time...I think what Sundevil was getting at simply was that he would run a mixture of mods that benefit both...You build a higher compression, lower boost engine for a similar effect to a heavy NA build-up (if you play the compressor maps right, you can get lots of highend hp, and not a ton of boost on torque...the engine would "behave" more like a strictly NA engine)...and in most cases it comes out cheaper than going full-out NA...but with less torque and expense than heavy boost...

You are correct though...technically the engine would be in the FI category...but I don't think that is what he meant...

[Installshield 2]

Just a little update on my build...Got the engine built up pretty well (forged goodies are now in it)...and trucked it back to school yesterday afternoon...Some friends of mine and I measured some some "dry" runs, in which we mounted it on a brake dyno (were not needing the ouput numbers though...it was not running with gasoline...just used the dyno to spin it)...The thing spun beautifully...we were checking balance of the assembly, and all we could get solid numbers on was harmoic resonance...and were getting an idea of the aluminum rod's tensile and inertial strength...We spun the crank to 8 grand...the crank will need some more balancing before it goes in the car most likely...but it held together fine, despite the lack of ability to truely get the block up to temp (we rigged an oil heater up to get it near operating temperature...but the block itself was only around 85 F when we started the runs)...NO noticable vibration problems though, in the sense to hurt reliability..

So the FS can physically handle it, the block anyways...We had a stock MP3 flywheel, and a stock crank pulley installed...Not sure if the oscillation problems "rumored" about lightweight flywheels and aluminum pullies would have been a problem...But i was pretty happy with everything so far...

[Installshield 2]

another update...The EMS situation is looking grim for now though...so I won't be installing the engine at least until later this summer...This Nick situation isn't looking good, and hopefully Andy will still be offering the AEM unit soon...If that isn't an option, it will take me weeks to build a harness for a Link...and I really don't want to go that route anyway...

[Mr. Win]

start praying thats what i say

[twilightprotege]

good stuff install - i cant wait to see how your engine ends up!!!!

[Installshield 2]

start praying thats what i say

Indeed...this is really bad...I waited to get this entire process underway until I would be able to get my hands on a standalone easily....And right when I start it, someone threw lumps fecal matter at the fan blades...

I really don't know what to do about this yet...I will just wait and see how it pans out...I heard some rumors that Andy will be marketing the AEM EMS through his shop, regardless of last weeks events...But I really can't do crap until I have a standalone...and I live far enough away from any reputable shops that having a non pnp standalone isn't much of an option...I need the car too often to be dealing with dropping the car off anywere, and electronics were always my weakest link (No plans to be rigging a standalone myself)...

But last summer, when I was granted access to all of this kick ass equipment, I was able to start a harness for a Linkplus 2 EMS...and with that harness it would run in parallel with the stock ECU, very similarly as to how the AEM unit was projected to work...If it comes to that, I can most likely get that back underway, and which once made (once the pins are all correct for the "bridge" would be sold through Link and available to anyone...They said they would keep the specs of it, and sell it to anyone who wanted a plug and play kit as an entire package...who knows at this point though...That unit is cheaper than the AEM by a good 500 bucks...but lacks any learning ability whatsoever from what I remember...so lots of dyno time is a must...

Thats the way it goes though...I really hope Nick isn't in over his head...I know this looks bad for him...and the lies from his family are unacceptable...but his personal life is none of my business, and I would still buy a standalone from him if it works...same if Andy sells it...If he releases it soon, I will have one by mid June...and the new engine will be in for a while, get tuned and dyno'd (might just be the first street driven FS pulling over 8,000 rpm)...Then things will really get underway...

[Installshield 2]

And another update...I really forgot to mention all of this stuff...

My constant mesh gear set appears to be finished...I was able to get ahold of some technicians that ran an affiliate companies shot-peening center, that took my specs of the G15M-R's internal tolerances and specs...The prototype set should be back to me by Memorial Day (May 31st, for those of you sitting in the slow seat)...I will install these as soon as possible regardless of the engine situation...The lack of syncro's free'd up a ton of room inside the case, and the new straight cut gear teeth are noticably thicker than stock...They claim the dog teeth and shaft teeth will be good for up to 400lb/ft of torque after the shoot peening...

But obviously thats not why I went with a constant mesh setup...Anyone unfamilia with this read up on it online...i will try to find some links...but the easiest way to describe it is by referring to a motorcyle gear box...Most bikes use constant mesh setups, which allow you to rip off extremely fast shifts without bothering with the clutch...A simple lift of the throttle to take off load, and a quick snap of your foot, and you barely even notice a shift besides the lifting of the front tire...

that is what my P5 will have...I custom machined a hugely short shfiter, that litterally has about 1" of throw from 1st to second...Some bugs need worked out for it to work with reverse...But with that thing installed, I will be able to shift at near SMG speeds...AND WITHOUT THE CLUTCH...The drawbacks are there though...They suck for the street until you get used to them...You have to get in the habit of ripping on the shifter everywhere you go, regardless of whether you are driving hard or not...The clutch will be intact obviously, and you can use that to smooth things out...But you still have to rip on that thing...If you "limp-it rip-it" you will be sans gearbox in no time...The lack of syncros gives a very small speed threshold to manuevar a shift...you simply have to always do it quickly, and rev match as much as possible...

The other thing is my lack of a good LSD available...The lack of strength of the MSP's stock diff has been recently revealed...and with how fast this box will be transferring torque around inside, I will not be going with that one...So it will remain open for a while, or possibly just recieve a simply Phantom Grip...No funds for the Quaife coming anytime soon...that money is going elsewhere...

[Gen1GT]

Sounds like you've done a lot of work, and you've got a lot of work ahead of you too. If you decide to go with Link, join the Miata.net forum. Most guys are using Link, and any help you might need, these guys would be a great source.

I wish my engine was ready for startup; I've only just started tearing it down.

[Installshield 2]

Yeah...I have been trying to get ahold of Keith at flyin' miata too...He is an authorized vendor I believe, and sells the drop in plug and play units for miata...

You are right though...The miata boards will definately be a huge help with using the software, and I am pretty unfamiliar with it...

I have really only done the research so far for the most part...I haven't touched the MP3's head for the most part, except for some intake valve replacements...But it will not be the one I keep in the end...The longest part was setting up the equipment to shape the rods and pistons, but that didn't seem to be too bad either...It will be a lot of trial and error after this though...

[Gen1GT]

You seem to have a lot of resources, so that's good. All the machining on my engine is going to have to be sent away to the machine shop. I'm going to do everything I can myself though(port shaping{using latex molds as guidlines}, radiusing valve pockets, port matching, deburring rods/crank/block etc, blueprinting etc etc)

So you have an MP3 then Install?

[Mr. Win]

Indeed...this is really bad...I waited to get this entire process underway until I would be able to get my hands on a standalone easily....And right when I start it, someone threw lumps fecal matter at the fan blades...

I really don't know what to do about this yet...I will just wait and see how it pans out...I heard some rumors that Andy will be marketing the AEM EMS through his shop, regardless of last weeks events...But I really can't do crap until I have a standalone...and I live far enough away from any reputable shops that having a non pnp standalone isn't much of an option...I need the car too often to be dealing with dropping the car off anywere, and electronics were always my weakest link (No plans to be rigging a standalone myself)...

But last summer, when I was granted access to all of this kick ass equipment, I was able to start a harness for a Linkplus 2 EMS...and with that harness it would run in parallel with the stock ECU, very similarly as to how the AEM unit was projected to work...If it comes to that, I can most likely get that back underway, and which once made (once the pins are all correct for the "bridge" would be sold through Link and available to anyone...They said they would keep the specs of it, and sell it to anyone who wanted a plug and play kit as an entire package...who knows at this point though...That unit is cheaper than the AEM by a good 500 bucks...but lacks any learning ability whatsoever from what I remember...so lots of dyno time is a must...

Thats the way it goes though...I really hope Nick isn't in over his head...I know this looks bad for him...and the lies from his family are unacceptable...but his personal life is none of my business, and I would still buy a standalone from him if it works...same if Andy sells it...If he releases it soon, I will have one by mid June...and the new engine will be in for a while, get tuned and dyno'd (might just be the first street driven FS pulling over 8,000 rpm)...Then things will really get underway...

just so you know they got the greddy emange to work...

[Installshield 2]

aahhh...I never trusted that things accuracy with this computer... I have to have full control over timing and fuel to keep this thing reliable and streetable...and by the time you get all of the accesories to go with the E-manage to control all that, it isn't a huge bargain over the link...

[Mr. Win]

i believe you can i dont know all the details theres a new thread floating aroudn about how to get it to work. The AEM isnt going to give you anything nick programmed it for oyu and you pluged it in and prayed that it worked. thats that.

[Shane5425]

what does it take... a miracle.... or alot of mula...

[Mr. Win]

basicly... what you want for the PB gun

[Shane5425]

230 + shipping it has an optional semi auto, auto , 3 shot burst, 6 shot burst, .. if ya really interested i can email u some pics..

[p5sundevil]

thx for clarifying what I meant before. Obviously I couldnt be FI and NA, more literally I meant a mild engine build, in steps that will show benefits on a NA engine but will also be applicable to a future low boost add on.

Which is what I would like to do. That way I can work myself into it like a full NA build, keep the turbo cost lower and I can save it for the last big spend....or so the plan goes so far.

Problem was, recent job change meant income was completely absorbed these first 3 or 4 months. By next month though Ill have more lesson clients and that means more cash income.

Shane - u in the wrong thread?

[Mr. Win]

thx for clarifying what I meant before. Obviously I couldnt be FI and NA, more literally I meant a mild engine build, in steps that will show benefits on a NA engine but will also be applicable to a future low boost add on.

Which is what I would like to do. That way I can work myself into it like a full NA build, keep the turbo cost lower and I can save it for the last big spend....or so the plan goes so far.

Problem was, recent job change meant income was completely absorbed these first 3 or 4 months. By next month though Ill have more lesson clients and that means more cash income.

Shane - u in the wrong thread?
what??!

[Gen1GT]

You guys are talking about some kind of gun for sale? Very much off topic, so take it to PMs please.

[Shane5425]

he asked i replied.. next time ill send it to private..

[Mr. Win]

You guys are talking about some kind of gun for sale? Very much off topic, so take it to PMs please.
shut up. this thread isnt going anywhere in the first place. it died.

interesting price ill think on it. i dunno i think i just have money buring a hole in my pocket.

[Shane5425]

k

[Kooldino]

Play nice or B&

-a message from your friendly internet police

[p5sundevil]

heh kool, i was just about to make a comment about that, gen1GT is right this thread is supposed to about the topic and the topic only, and where do u get that this thread died....last on topic posts were by twilight yesterday at 9:15pm and mine at like almost 11pm...10 hours isnt a thread dying.

[Gen1GT]

Ya, I didn't want to start a flame war and ruin the thread though. Looks like it has been ruined though.....

[Mr. Win]

fact of the matter is i asked a simple questoin while answering a question. my computer has a 50/50 chance on wheather it will let me go to PM or not. Id rather not take the risk cause it close out IE; so when i say shut up i mean stop being a tight ass. Sorry big dog. I say the thread died because theres notthing more to be said. If there is let it thrive!

[p5sundevil]

whats up with your computer? software or hardware issues? I can probably help if you can figure out whats causing the situation. Cause it should be doing that...sounds like a worm/bug or something.

edit: also didnt want it to seem like I was jumping on your case specifically, I am a little more flagrant when wasted =) Let the NA tech continue...

[batmang]

hes either running win2k winxp and has a worm/trojan/virii, or hes running 9x. or he has a macintosh.

get spysweeper, cause spyware sucks. and get norton, cause virii suck. and stop looking at porn. :D

[p5sundevil]

norton is optional, if you want to just run some checking programs once in a while and not always have a program running in the background....then I would run AdAware 6.0(there is a free version for download on download.com) and that will help with your spyware, popups, trackers and all gator related evices...
restart, run it again to make sure

then pm me sometime and Ill get you Spybot S&D, that will take care of worms specifcally but will help with the trojans and spyware.

And Ill tell you I dont visit porn sites anymore(truthfully, I DL videos only now =)) and I will still pick up 20-40 items that adaware catches every 2-4 weeks. The web is just full of shit.

edit: also if you do want norton systemworks or a mcafee app let me know, everything is free.

[Mr. Win]

ive got them all. i used to to work help desk for 750 computers and serviced them. i just something that has to do with the proxy jar.

[Gen1GT]

Talk about a thread jack! (jacked)

[SpicyMchaggis]

boost is your friend. Boost can cost just as much, if not more than an n/a application. In the end it becomes the same motor work.

[p5sundevil]

i agree up to the point of same motor work...a turbo kit basically bolts on like an NA person would start with I/H/E but thats about where that similarity ends, because from then an NA person has to work and study on cams, timing, P&P'ing stuff and so forth, and will require a different ecu setup if going aftermarket.

True a boosted person Can do all these things also but thats not what we are talking about, Im being more specific on a Turbo Kit vs an NA buildup. No doubt turbo guys know their shit, even about NA operations obviously but not quite as neurotically or in as much detail in those areas as a strictly all engine guy.

[Gen1GT]

It's true man. Turbo guys don't know a whole lot(sorry turbo guys, but generally it's true). Just go to the local shop and say, "hey, give me boost". NA guys need knowledge and experience. Way more props to someone who increases power by 40% NA, than by boosting it.

[cdglowred5]

Gen1gt---If you want that kind of gearing look in the salvage yard. Look for a v6 mx3 for 4:11 gearing or Escape 2.0 liter and use the last one to make it 388 gearing. Another secret of mine in project escort gt that I left out. Also use the LSD from a GTX 323. I have that in my protege5 now(LSD)....

Look at the track ZX2 when it whipped up on the honda. It was a ford block ztec with the g series tranaxle of mazda with escape gearing....

Turbo=fun
N/A=FUN THAT KICKS ASS

[Replica]

It's true man. Turbo guys don't know a whole lot(sorry turbo guys, but generally it's true). Just go to the local shop and say, "hey, give me boost". NA guys need knowledge and experience. Way more props to someone who increases power by 40% NA, than by boosting it.What are you talking about? i can go to a shop and say "make me fast all motor."

[p5sundevil]

not really, they will then have to sit you down and go through what kind of intake, header, exhaust you want, what kinda of cams specs and cam gear settings you want, what kinda of compressions and timing you want, if you want to do any headwork, intake manifold work or maybe a completely new intake manifold.

the point is a turbo kit is just that, a kit that anyone can buy, bolt off the stock parts and bolts those in the kit in their place and be done.

An NA buildup is going to Require you to research each mod, and will never allow you to do it in a "kit" style unless you come across a company that does IHE kits but that just the first stage of an NA buildup. And Id like to see the shop you can go to and just say, hey give me 180whp NA, and they will either decline or charge you about 10k for all the labor and R&D that would have to be done to do a NA build right.

So while in the most literal sense of the word you could say make me fast all motor but your fooling youself to think it will come out in good quality, timeliness and finincial efficiency.

[twilightprotege]

come on ppl - keep this thread more on topic and stop the argueing. we're not children

[Shane5425]

i think it would be better though to make a good n/a engine.. about 150 whp.. then turbo it... u will get alot of gain there... and the engine is tougher than just throwing a turbo kit on a stock engine...

[Gen1GT]

Ya, you can't just go in and 'order' an NA buildup. Unless it's from a company that specializes in a particular engine(Like Jackson Racing and the D16). But to ask a shop to build your car NA, even THEY'll have to do research. Even my shop doesn't know as much as I do in where to get parts. And what works on one car, doesn't always work on other cars. Like how the BP(and the FS as well I've heard) respone more with more intake duration, than exhaust. This is not the kind of thing any ol shop will know. Nor would they know that the RX7 Airflow Meter is a good mod for my car. Nor would they know they could use Miata 10:1 pistons in my car. etc.

Shane, you're mostly right. If you only go so far with your build-up that is. With NA, you want long duration cams, high compression pistons, relatively thin diameter exhaust etc. With turbo, you want shorter duration, high lift cams, lower compression pistons and larger exhaust. Your NA intake is useless, as is your header. But headwork, custom intake manifold, ported TB...all good for either....

[Shane5425]

woo hoo.. i was partly right about something.... :) ... now i just need a car that i can build up in performance... i have basically ran out of things i can do with my car,, got the Car Video, Car Audio and Bass is top of the line... Body kit , rims.. lookin nice.. no more air force one wing... i want to go performance, but i have an auto..

i think what i am gonna do is find another protege with the 1.8 and transfer parts.., if i cant then ill find a 2.0 and change the front end to the one that is currently on my car, so i can keep the body kit.. .. then performance.... woo hoo..

[p5sundevil]

sounds like a couple good potential plans, you should plan out what you would do if you went with each option from start to finish, then once you have all the complete plans in place compare them to what you want to do with your car and your off. sorta anyway.

for you the easiest thing would be to do a tranny swap ifyou wanna do some decent power...this brings up an intersting point, will a tranny hold up to 140whp NA longer and better than 140whp FI? I would tend to think because of all the on/off boost changes it would be more tramatic tot he tranny over tiem with boost....anyone have any ideas on this.

[1ofdfew323]

Ok i saw one of u guys posted that i can use a 2nd gen fuel injectors and fuel pum for my 1st gen 323 w/ bp motor. Is this 2nd gen turbo charge or just the n/a? I plan on shooting Nitrous and this would really help. THX.

I like to go all motor but im short in cash and i dont like my car to idle like shit on the stop light w/ a polyurethane bushings on my engine mounts. (headache) Plus smog check is a bitch i dont feel like removing the motor and placing the stock bp back on everytime i get my smog check...

[Installshield 2]

Gen1 is right, as well as Sundevil...I would never for a minute trust some general performance shop to do any performance work on my engines...I will get cams made to my specs, and things like that...But I could never just plop an engine off and say, gimme 200whp NA...They will either never get it done, or trial and error for 3 years, and eventually charge you $20,000...further enforcing the notion of NA being so expensive...by far the biggest expense is the research...

Unless the shop works on specific engines...Don't bother...There are no FS only shops, it hasn't even been microscoped much until within the last 3 years...BP guys are a better off, its a much more popular engine...

But honestly a lot of local shop guys are not people to bother with...Like gen1 mentioned, some shops might know the general tricks for engines similar to yours (like a BP responding well to longer duration cams...) But if you ask them why...I bet you won't get the same answer twice...if you go in there and say "My low rod ratio engine needs cams with much longer duration because it has immeasurably fast piston dwell", they might just glare at you...I have met some shop OWNERS that do not know what a rod ratio even refers to, and why it is responsible for so many nay sayers saying that an FS will never make more than 140whp...

Just do the research men...troll these boards non stop for a year straight, and you can bother the greatest with trivial, useless, junk about the addiction that is auto tuning...

[Gen1GT]

addiction is right...it's all I can think about. I lay in bed at night thinking about tuning my cams when I get them, or if my custom header is going to work as well as I hope......(crazy)

Sundevil, an NA tranny will last much longer than a FI tranny. It's torque that's the problem here. Even though you could even be making the same power, the turbo car will have WAY more torque, and changing gears at speed will tend to break things. It's the only problem with the BP. I could run 350whp til the cows come home on a BP, but the G25-MR, although one of the best Mazda trannies, wasn't made to handle 300lb/ft of torque.

[20EVOLUTION01]

addiction is right...it's all I can think about. I lay in bed at night thinking about tuning my cams when I get them, or if my custom header is going to work as well as I hope......(crazy)

Sundevil, an NA tranny will last much longer than a FI tranny. It's torque that's the problem here. Even though you could even be making the same power, the turbo car will have WAY more torque, and changing gears at speed will tend to break things. It's the only problem with the BP. I could run 350whp til the cows come home on a BP, but the G25-MR, although one of the best Mazda trannies, wasn't made to handle 300lb/ft of torque.

Hey Gen1GT check what I found on EBAY. Don't know if it will help youor not but here it is. Has the cams done and also shaved the head a bit to give it higher compression.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2479990180&category=33617

[Gen1GT]

Wow, looks like a nice piece. Only thing is, I'm not going to pay that price for it. I'm doing a lot of the work myself on my head, and cams and cam gears are going to run me about $800 American, so it would be pointless to buy it. I'm going to post that on the clubprotege site though.

[Mental Addiction]

I have not read every post, so this might have already been covered.

Inorder to make 200whp on a FS-De motor it's going to take compression,intake,exhaust, RPM's and a well combo'd setup.
The FS-DE intake will not support high RPM's.It's long runner design makes it good for low end power and a straw up top.
Now if you had a ported intake and was able to control the VTCS then that would be a different story.Next would be the intake/exhaust cams.Simply put, stock are not big enough.The lift and duration are to small.
Compression, the 9.1 stock is not going to cut it, you will need 10.0-10.8(for pump gas).
Cylinder head(intake runners), the head in all honesty isn't to bad.To make the 200whp you are going to want to look at larger valves, port the intake and exhaust runners(clean them up), heavier springs(for larger cams,ie open/closed seat pressure)tit. retainers and good cams.
Then it comes down to being able to tune the car.The stock ECU will not work.You will need a good standalone.

If it was me, this is what I would do:
Ported stock intake(keep the VTCS so you can have decent lowend)
Ported head with oversized valves,tit retainers,springs,etc
Custom cams
Oliver Billet Rods
CP pistons,10.8(Oliver rods and CP Piston's make for a litle rotating assembly)
standalone
etc.

This is predy much a short version of what IMO would be good.

[p5sundevil]

awesome man, very good info on a progressive buildup. I wish I didnt find out about u guys 2 weeks after I moved from AZ to WA =P

I need to finisdh of my IHE and then decide between the head and intake work or the cams....wish things didnt go bad with perf his stage 2 and 3 cams were looking promising.

[twilightprotege]

i'm like that too gen1 - thinking "what about if i do this" as i head off to sleep hehehehe. i come up with the strangest things sometimes....think it'll work extremely well then find out through research that some smarter person already has a patent on it.

[iluvmacs]

I have met some shop OWNERS that do not know what a rod ratio even refers to, and why it is responsible for so many nay sayers saying that an FS will never make more than 140whp...


This isn't meant to be a stupid question, but what is the reason that the FS won't make 200 bhp? People look at the honda 2.0L making much more hp, and besides the obvious differences (VTEC, head design, cams), they wonder why other engines come with so much more power, stock?

The reason I'm asking you all is because I have an engine performance program (simulator) for the computer. I can't get more than 180 fhp from this motor before going into super-tuned headers, intakes, and combustion chambers. Performance headers and optimized cams get me to 180 fhp, which isn't that bad (considering that the cam lift is <.4 and duration is <250 ).

[Gen1GT]

This isn't meant to be a stupid question, but what is the reason that the FS won't make 200 bhp? People look at the honda 2.0L making much more hp, and besides the obvious differences (VTEC, head design, cams), they wonder why other engines come with so much more power, stock?

The reason I'm asking you all is because I have an engine performance program (simulator) for the computer. I can't get more than 180 fhp from this motor before going into super-tuned headers, intakes, and combustion chambers. Performance headers and optimized cams get me to 180 fhp, which isn't that bad (considering that the cam lift is <.4 and duration is <250 ).
That's a tough question. Hondas are completely optimized from the factory. The heads are phenominal, literally second to none. They'll all aluminum, allowing for more compression before detonation, have excellent flow characteristics and respond well to modifications. The FS wasn't over developed like some of the Hondas. Mazda, until recently, didn't spend as much money developing their engines. When Mazda wanted power, they just boosted it. It's like trying to turn a naturally gifted, well-built athlete into an NBA player, compared to training an overweight clutz, who's never played sports.

A problem with my car, is the ports are already too big. It was designed this way to accept large amounts of boost, but kills velocity for NA applications, and gives you less room to shape ports.

[thewrench]

compared to training an overweight clutz, who's never played sports.
You talking about me ?!?!?! :D This is funny to those who've seen me. Topher???

Anyway,iluvmacs, have you ever tried running numbers to optimize torque rather than hp? My cam blanks are here, and I need to start to figure just what specs to have them ground to. I'm looking for bigger torque #s, from around 2000-5500, with as much area under the curve as possible. Let me know if you're interested in running some #s for me. I may start a new thread.

[twilightprotege]

another problem with our engines is the stroke vs bore size.

[akhilleus]

Wrench If u want high torque across the powerband and are less concerned about top end u should go high lift, as high as possible w/o new springs. maybe .355"+ and moderate duration, maybe 215@.050"
and also would it be possible to have the cylinders bored to compensate for the longer stroke and have larger rings w/ HC pistons?

[Shane5425]

best way to get 200 whp na is to get another car, it would take alot of work to do taht plus when u do , how reliable will this engine be.

if i ever wanted to make a protege fast and had ALOT of money, heres what u do, find a rx7 tt , gut ur protege, make room for the tranny and engine , convert to rwd.. the kill anything that u see on the road.. hehe..

[thewrench]

Wrench If u want high torque across the powerband and are less concerned about top end u should go high lift, as high as possible w/o new springs. maybe .355"+ and moderate duration, maybe 215 @.050"

That's very close to my thinking so far, except, according to twilight, the stock springs will only go to .350. (please correct me if I'm wrong, Andy) And I'm thinking of adding some duration to the exhaust cam to help with scavenging.

And, as for me, I have no plans for high comp pistons, but I do know how that limits me, and I'm willing to accept that.

[twilightprotege]

iluvmacs - do you have dyno2003?

wrench, i'm not sure what the stock springs can go up do, but i wouldnt push them past 0.350". dont forget when akhilleus says .355", that's cam lift...you have 0.009"-0.012" lash, so that reduces the overall lift (reason i say change the lash to 0.009")

and dont forget, with our engines you will need a larger cam on the exhaust side because the intake side flows more than the exhaust side and you need to even that up

[20EVOLUTION01]

best way to get 200 whp na is to get another car, it would take alot of work to do taht plus when u do , how reliable will this engine be.

if i ever wanted to make a protege fast and had ALOT of money, heres what u do, find a rx7 tt , gut ur protege, make room for the tranny and engine , convert to rwd.. the kill anything that u see on the road.. hehe..

Hey that's what I was thinking of doing later on with time. That would be one killer mod though. A PROTEGE DRIFTER. Like the sound of that. The Rotary would definatley fit in the bay but modding the rear for rear wheel drive is what would be the difficult part.

[Gen1GT]

There's ONE advantage of HLAs(well, I guess they are reliable and easy too), and that's zero lash. Advertised cam duration is actual cam duration. Here's the BP cam stats.

INT: 0.318"lift, 196deg @ 0.050"
EXH: 0.338"lift, 202deg @ 0.050"

Those are ACTUAL MEASURED results. On Randy's SoloMiata website http://members.aol.com/solomiata/cams.html He overrates the BP Protege stats, putting them the same value as the Miata BP stats.

ANYways.., there's a guy here in Canada who's going to regrind my (spare)exhaust cam to use as an intake cam for only $175CDN. He's seen 12whp on a mildly modded B6, so for such a cheap price, I figure I can't go wrong.

INT spec: 0.353"lift, 209deg @ 0.050"

A mild cam I know, but for the price, it'll tide me over just fine til I finish balancing and blueprinting my other BP. Look at the increase over the stock intake cam though. It's almost hard to believe I make so much high RPM power with the stock pieces. I'd be MORE than happy to see 7 or 8 whp for $175. (boobs)

[Shane5425]

Hey that's what I was thinking of doing later on with time. That would be one killer mod though. A PROTEGE DRIFTER. Like the sound of that. The Rotary would definatley fit in the bay but modding the rear for rear wheel drive is what would be the difficult part.
could u imagin what a tt rotary protege would do .... lol, maybe when i get older and settled down, when get based on a miltary base, i am going to the hobby shop to learn to weld, then gonna take body work classes, then take whatever other car classes they offer, best thing about is that all the classes are free.. .woo hooooo. when i do get a house it will have a 2 stall garage, for my toys with a lift, so, a rotary protege or miata might pop up within the next 4 to 5 years.. who knows

still think a rotary protege would be bad ass

i am pretty sure the mx6(think it is the mx6) tranny bolts right up to the new rotary in the 8, if i remember right, the guys who made the new engine did it on the side in a mx6 , then said hey mazda see what we made it meets us emmisions, then they made the rx8.

[Installshield 2]

This isn't meant to be a stupid question, but what is the reason that the FS won't make 200 bhp? People look at the honda 2.0L making much more hp, and besides the obvious differences (VTEC, head design, cams), they wonder why other engines come with so much more power, stock?

The reason I'm asking you all is because I have an engine performance program (simulator) for the computer. I can't get more than 180 fhp from this motor before going into super-tuned headers, intakes, and combustion chambers. Performance headers and optimized cams get me to 180 fhp, which isn't that bad (considering that the cam lift is <.4 and duration is <250 ).

Gen1 touched on this well...but I have to disagree Gen1 on the Honda heads being second to none...They probably are the best 4cylinder heads by far in cheaper economy cars, and sport compacts...As well as some of the upper end cars they make...But comparing any Honda head, to one of the heads on a Ferrari 360's 40valve V8 is entirely different...As well as every BMW DoubleVanos Head, and Porsche's VarioCam Plus systems...Obviously I am being critical, and I don't think you were relating Honda to these types in anyway...so sorry dude...just wanted to clarify that a Honda head isn't anything spectacular on a larger scale...

But related to an FS's head...we won't touch it...Its not that an FS's is overly awful, its decent for an economy car...But Honda engineering is excellent at using newer technology at an affordable price...They started the whole variable valve timing crap on cheaper cars, which at that time was barely used on a lot of expenive cars in the first place...

But anyway...like Gen1 mentioned...You need to look at what this engine was created for...It was dubbed as a larger displacement "torquier" alternative to the FP-DE (the 1.8L used as the high trim engine when the 3rd gen was released)...The stroke was increased to 92mm, which eradicated any upper rpm breathing, but not on its own...The rod ratio, which is a somewhat complicated measurement, relates pistons vertical motion to crank angular rotation...The FS has a very low rod ratio...so in short, our engine's pistons are traveling extremely quickly at a given rpm when compared to a higher rod ratio engine...So the stroke and rod ratio both work together to create an engine that has a very large sinus infection...the stroke makes it difficult to spin efficiently at high rpm, which results in power losses and vibration...and the rod ratio makes it nearly impossible to pull fresh air in, and get burned gas out...

All of that was never the intent by Mazda for this car though...They probably knew it was pretty bad at high rpm power output, and they knew it was good at lowend torque (the benefit of high stroke, and low rod ratios)...and for some reason that is what every American supposedly wants compared to other countries...The ZE makes about the same torque higher up, with much better high rpm breathing...But America gets the torquier engine, because we supposedly want that...and for emissions reasons...

The restrictive exhaust components for U-LEV compliance is slightly to blame too...and also the ECU is very conservative for power...It runs things very rich, probably for safety (it contradicts good emissions though)...

There is hope for the FS...it is just a more tedious project than some other engines...I probably missed some things, so let me know if I did...

[Gen1GT]

Rod ratio is critical for high RPM, and as Install knows the BP rod ratio is worse in that regard than the FS, but BPs can still rev. Most Miata guys run 8-9000RPM redlines with stand alones and lighter rods, and one guy has a story of overreving to 13,000 on a missed downshift with no ill effects. But that's due to the BPs bottom end, with the forged internals and all(BP Proteges have a Main Bearing Support Plate that Miatas don't have too). A 10% increase in RPMs creates a 20% increase in stresses.

Other than that, engines with lower rod ratios are more ping resistant, since there's little top dwell, but there's more cylinder wall friction too. Also, low rod-ratio engines promote higher intake and exhaust velocities, but attention needs to be paid to low lift flow. I probably wouldn't be able to run 18 degrees ignition advance with a longer rod either, but that's neither here no there.

[akhilleus]

very informative. like always install :D
But unfortunately alot of this is speculation. We still dont have many good dyno figures or large scale build ups to compare to. I am not sure as to what has been done with older FS-DE probes or 626's in regards to this. Also as i mentioned what is the feasability of having the engine bored out?
I think once twilight has his car dyno'd this saturday we will have a better idea of what the engine can do NA. although there is no doubt that Honda's have some nice engineering, i mean the protege has an old ford engine, how can u compare.

[Gen1GT]

very informative. like always install :D
But unfortunately alot of this is speculation. We still dont have many good dyno figures or large scale build ups to compare to. I am not sure as to what has been done with older FS-DE probes or 626's in regards to this. Also as i mentioned what is the feasability of having the engine bored out?
I think once twilight has his car dyno'd this saturday we will have a better idea of what the engine can do NA. although there is no doubt that Honda's have some nice engineering, i mean the protege has an old ford engine, how can u compare.
I hate it when people say that. Mazda doesn't use Ford engines, it's the other way around. The F-Series engine is 100% Mazda, and dates back to the old RWD 626s from the 70s. Back when Ford has absolutely nothing to do with Mazda.

[Shane5425]

I hate it when people say that. Mazda doesn't use Ford engines, it's the other way around. The F-Series engine is 100% Mazda, and dates back to the old RWD 626s from the 70s. Back when Ford has absolutely nothing to do with Mazda.
but ford did take a cast of the block, but added all there stuff on the rest of it , so ford copied mazda for there focus.

[Gen1GT]

but ford did take a cast of the block, but added all there stuff on the rest of it , so ford copied mazda for there focus.
Ford uses Mazda's superior engineering, and the only thing Mazda uses of Ford's is their truck crap.

[p5sundevil]

and their money...lets not forget....believe me I am the first to point this shit out also, because my dad works for the jaguar hot weather test facility(can u say free tires/wheels/race gas in AZ) and he always gets that ford makes jag now, even though the relationship is almost exactly like that between ford and mazda. The fund Jaguar but thats about where it ends. Last time ford tried to have a major influence in a jag they got shut down, i dont know if anyone remembers the F-type prototype jag(2dr, all aluminum body/susp 3.0v6(Rmodel supercharged 350hp) and when ford told jag they could only have the funding for it if they(ford) could use the platform and everything else on their future models, since jag didnt want any cheaper cars using their stuff they said no and shut down the entire project. Sucked ass cause I was planning on it as my car.

[Gen1GT]

Haha...that's funny. Good though, I like Jag's integrity. Although Jag used Ford Contour/626 Platform for the X-Type. It IS a Mazda platform, so that's not bad I guess. The Jag even uses the KL-DE V6.

I remember the F-Type, I wish they had made it.....

[p5sundevil]

yah the Stype and Xtype unfortunately saw ford influence, whcih is why for the first time in yrs jag had problems with one of their productions vehicles, the first yr the Stype came out was not good.

Now that they are restarting their line with the new XJ and XK series being only jag platforms things are pure again. gotta love all aluminum frames coupled with supercharged v8's puting 400 to the wheels.....

[Gen1GT]

You can get a good used XJR at an awesome price too....

[akhilleus]

yeah but ford helped them with their electrical problems

[Shane5425]

funny thing too, alot of the modules in the mazda 6 and 3 say ford motor company on them.

[p5sundevil]

a majority of their help with the "electrical problem" was a shitload of extra cash to sink into that area of developement. something jag was lacking hard before being bought a long time ago.

[iluvmacs]

Anyway,iluvmacs, have you ever tried running numbers to optimize torque rather than hp?

Actually, no, but that's a great idea, although a bit tougher to do. However, when i optimized for hp, the volumetric efficiency got as high as 96%, which I thought was phenomenal. Torque peak was around 160 ft*lb with 150 at 1500 RPM lower and higher.


iluvmacs - do you have dyno2003?

and dont forget, with our engines you will need a larger cam on the exhaust side because the intake side flows more than the exhaust side and you need to even that up

No, I don't. I probably should get it, although I'm really busy trying to close on a house, get married, and start my first job. I'll get around to it.

Is that flow based on the head, or bolt ons? I would understand if the head had better intake flow. There's a ratio that has to be optimized with that, but I forgot what it's called.



But anyway...like Gen1 mentioned...You need to look at what this engine was created for...It was dubbed as a larger displacement "torquier" alternative to the FP-DE (the 1.8L used as the high trim engine when the 3rd gen was released)...The stroke was increased to 92mm, which eradicated any upper rpm breathing, but not on its own...The rod ratio, which is a somewhat complicated measurement, relates pistons vertical motion to crank angular rotation...The FS has a very low rod ratio...so in short, our engine's pistons are traveling extremely quickly at a given rpm when compared to a higher rod ratio engine...So the stroke and rod ratio both work together to create an engine that has a very large sinus infection...the stroke makes it difficult to spin efficiently at high rpm, which results in power losses and vibration...and the rod ratio makes it nearly impossible to pull fresh air in, and get burned gas out...

The restrictive exhaust components for U-LEV compliance is slightly to blame too...and also the ECU is very conservative for power...It runs things very rich, probably for safety (it contradicts good emissions though)...

I understand about the rod ratio. It helps that most honda engines (minus the CR-V, some accords, etc with the 2.4) are relatively square. They also have a tall block. In a perfect world I'd get a miata crank and some longer rods to keep or increase the stock compression ratio. .2L of displacement doesn't seem like much when you consider the RPM benefits. Is the FS block any taller? I mean, after destroking, could the FS have a better rod ratio than the BP?

Most cars seem to run extremely rich, starting at the torque peak. That sucks because 70-75 mph is right in the torque peak and it sucks down gas on the highway at that speed. My other car, stock, runs 11:1 A/F past 3000 RPM. It's torque peak though is at 1800-3200 RPM.

Thanks for the replies. I know the FS isn't a great engine for modding, but if you consider that if you spent the same money on bolt-ons or top-end (valvetrain) parts as you did with a different engine, you'd get less output, but the car is already a blast to drive, and any improvement would just make it more fun. I'd be satisfied with 130 whp, knowing how many tickets I'm going to get when the car is stock....

Here's my plan for 130+ whp:

CAI (no hp increase, but sounds a shitload better, and cleans up the engine bay)
header
2.25" cat-back exhaust (custom, because chrome is for douches)
cams (lift has yet to be decided, based on vacuum and head flow)
intake (221 dur, -4BTDC, 45ABDC)
exhaust (236 dur, 50 BBDC, 6ATDC)

I don't like the overlap issue, but run that through DD and let me know if you can come up with something better.

Oh, and an ECU rePROM

[MSPinVA]

funny thing too, alot of the modules in the mazda 6 and 3 say ford motor company on them.

That's because the block and internals are Ford, the heads-up are Mazda. The 2.3 liter Duratec seems like a FANTASTIC motor to build NA. You guys should consider it as a project sometime :)

I know this is a little off topic, but you NA guys seem to know a shitload more than I ever would about our motors, so here goes: What would a longer duration intake cam and ported valves do for performance on a boosted car? Wouldn't it just multiply the gains from an NA application?

[Mike R]

That's because the block and internals are Ford, the heads-up are Mazda. The 2.3 liter Duratec seems like a FANTASTIC motor to build NA. You guys should consider it as a project sometime :)

I know this is a little off topic, but you NA guys seem to know a shitload more than I ever would about our motors, so here goes: What would a longer duration intake cam and ported valves do for performance on a boosted car? Wouldn't it just multiply the gains from an NA application?
Yes, the duratec is, it already has been putting out 250+ HP N/A for a couple years. A little more duration would be OK, but with turbo you don't want too much duration because of overlap. Ported Valves? Do you mean porting the head? The intake and exhaust ports?

[MSPinVA]

isnt there a procedure to widen the valves more, maybe not porting is the word.... micing maybe? Anyway, I figured porting and polishing the ports in the head would be beneficial. Also, what is the new 2.0L motor? Is it a Duratec too or the FS engine?

[Installshield 2]

Actually, no, but that's a great idea, although a bit tougher to do. However, when i optimized for hp, the volumetric efficiency got as high as 96%, which I thought was phenomenal. Torque peak was around 160 ft*lb with 150 at 1500 RPM lower and higher.



No, I don't. I probably should get it, although I'm really busy trying to close on a house, get married, and start my first job. I'll get around to it.

Is that flow based on the head, or bolt ons? I would understand if the head had better intake flow. There's a ratio that has to be optimized with that, but I forgot what it's called.



I understand about the rod ratio. It helps that most honda engines (minus the CR-V, some accords, etc with the 2.4) are relatively square. They also have a tall block. In a perfect world I'd get a miata crank and some longer rods to keep or increase the stock compression ratio. .2L of displacement doesn't seem like much when you consider the RPM benefits. Is the FS block any taller? I mean, after destroking, could the FS have a better rod ratio than the BP?

Most cars seem to run extremely rich, starting at the torque peak. That sucks because 70-75 mph is right in the torque peak and it sucks down gas on the highway at that speed. My other car, stock, runs 11:1 A/F past 3000 RPM. It's torque peak though is at 1800-3200 RPM.

Thanks for the replies. I know the FS isn't a great engine for modding, but if you consider that if you spent the same money on bolt-ons or top-end (valvetrain) parts as you did with a different engine, you'd get less output, but the car is already a blast to drive, and any improvement would just make it more fun. I'd be satisfied with 130 whp, knowing how many tickets I'm going to get when the car is stock....

Here's my plan for 130+ whp:

CAI (no hp increase, but sounds a shitload better, and cleans up the engine bay)
header
2.25" cat-back exhaust (custom, because chrome is for douches)
cams (lift has yet to be decided, based on vacuum and head flow)
intake (221 dur, -4BTDC, 45ABDC)
exhaust (236 dur, 50 BBDC, 6ATDC)

I don't like the overlap issue, but run that through DD and let me know if you can come up with something better.

Oh, and an ECU rePROM
If you destroke the FS engine, you essentially make it the FP...which is the same for the most part, just less stroke and 1.8L...I am not positive on what happens to the rod ratio's on "destroking" an engine when you don't do anything to the crank...I haven't read up on that in a while, but to my understanding nothing would happen to the rod ratio's unless the crank geometry is altered as well...Some one clear that up though, that may not be right...

But that engine makes about the same overall output in HP as the FS, less torque, and is much more willing to rev...it generally is said to be a slightly better starting point for NA...

[iluvmacs]

Install:

the only thing that would change the rod ratio compared to the FP, would be if and only if the deck height was different on the FS engine. To compensate, you'd have to use longer rods or you'd lose your compression ratio. The piston wouldn't travel far enough in the cylinder. If they're the same block, nothing changes though.

edit: the FP probably has longer rods to begin with, but what I meant was even longer than stock FP rods, if the block was taller.


MSP:

most FI guys never look into valvetrain work. the reason is this; the engine is designed to have a flat torque curve at some point in the RPM range. The turbo also has a maximum efficiency curve, which can be set before (more torque, usually stock setup), at (maximum torque), or beyond (hp, and big turbos) the engine torque range.

When you change cams, do not increase overlap, as you'll lose all your boost to the exhaust.

Cams and head work make the turbo have less work to do, and thus increases your turbine efficiency, and lowers your intake temperature. usually it's much cheaper to intercool or increase boost to get the power you want.

If you want a super KA engine, design the turbo for a certain RPM range as most FI guys do. Then, rebuild the engine, with cams, headwork, and manifolds to compliment the turbo.

Slapping a turbo on isn't really tricky, but true efficient turbocharging requires modifications to the intake, head, and cams.

[MSPinVA]

thanks iluvmacs. I was talking about WAY down the road, as the FSDE motor cant take too much past moderate boost on the stock bottom end anyway. I figured if I was going to take the motor apart and do the rods/pistons, I might as well do the top end too. I figure doing it right the first time is the best way to go :)

[iluvmacs]

If you've got the funds. Valvetrain work is the most expensive compared to the other stuff you're probably going to do.

[twilightprotege]

macs - yeah the intake side flows more - based on the size of the valves and the flow test i had done after my head was ported

and your cam specs sound good on paper, but the intake needs to open earlier. i'd strongly suggest adjustable cam gears

[akhilleus]

Those cam specs seem kinda high on the duration end. I would really suggest minimizing the duration increase and increase lift more. High duration ruins your bottom end. no more than 220@.050"

[iluvmacs]

twilight: Those specs I got from optimizing the setup on Desktop dyno. I used your head flow specs, since they're the only numbers that the cylinder head can be calculated with. I plan on getting cam gears, and do much more research with cams.

akhilleus: The point of the duration was to decrease bottom end power. Reasons... top end torque means more hp...the FS-DE already has plenty of torque, less won't make much of a deal to me...I need gas mileage when not driving the snot out of the car. I'll check on the lift, but I want to do some research into vacuum effects and the need to increase idle speed.

[akhilleus]

Alright but look at twilight his powerband went way up with similar duration.

[Installshield 2]

Install:

the only thing that would change the rod ratio compared to the FP, would be if and only if the deck height was different on the FS engine. To compensate, you'd have to use longer rods or you'd lose your compression ratio. The piston wouldn't travel far enough in the cylinder. If they're the same block, nothing changes though.

edit: the FP probably has longer rods to begin with, but what I meant was even longer than stock FP rods, if the block was taller.




The FS and FP share the same block I believe...The rods are different, because of the stroke, and the pistons can get confusing...From what I remember, the FS-ZE pistons make a ~9.1:1 Static CR in the FP, thus they are used stock...That may be different, Ed knows all the little technicalities between the two engines....I know very little about the FP...I don't know if it even has the same crank...But I think it uses shorter rods than the FS, with higher compression pistons relative to the FS (they are the same bore as the FS's, and when used in the destroked FP they make roughly the same CR)

[Gen1GT]

First I want to say how impressed I am with these NA threads we have. Lots of good information, lots of good questions being asked, and lots of good answers. (headbang)

Here's a couple of useful sites for you guys, in case you don't have them yet.

http://members.aol.com/FE3N/rods.html

http://members.aol.com/solomiata/MX5Engine.html

http://members.aol.com/solomiata/cams.html (this one won't help you guys much, but it's good information)
http://web2.airmail.net/theman/protegefaq/

Now, with the FP, since it's a destroked FS(or the FS is a stroked FP, whatever), I think we can make some asumptions. First, I think they share the same block, since headers will bolt up to either, and they have the same bore. The FS rods are 135.2mm with a 92mm stroke(1.47 rod ratio if you were counting, and WOW, that's really low. I was under the impression the FS had a better rod ratio than the BPs 1.56. The FE3 has a 1.74 rod ratio), and since the FP has an 85mm stroke, I'm going to assume it has a 142.5mm rod(obviously speculation, since I don't know the deck height, but they both have 9.1:1 compression). That gives it a 1.68 rod ratio, and means it'll like to rev a whole lot more.

[Gen1GT]

And oh ya...the FS rod ratio..that really sucks. A lot of power could be had playing with ignition timing though.....

[Installshield 2]

wow BP's are 1.56?...I thought they were 1.3 something...but I knew ours was 1.47...

[Gen1GT]

wow BP's are 1.56?...I thought they were 1.3 something...but I knew ours was 1.47...
Ya, I had all the information at my disposal, but never did the math....

B18C5s have a ratio of 1.58, so obviously rod ratio isn't all of the story. Other than high piston speeds, there's nothing saying a low rod ratio can't make lots of high RPM power.

[jaman]

Any clue what rod-ratio the Protege Speedworld challange cars have? I know that by the the rules they're limited to 8k rpm.

[Gen1GT]

Any clue what rod-ratio the Protege Speedworld challange cars have? I know that by the the rules they're limited to 8k rpm.
Not sure, but I'm sure it's close to stock. The only way to increase rod ratio while keeping the stock crank and stroke is to make a longer rod, and move the piston pin farther up inside the piston. Depending on deck height, you could increase the rod length a bit more too. 8K isn't that big of a deal for a race engine, so with a strong bottom end, here's no reason the FS can't rev that high if you're only getting 10 races out of the engine.

If I were you guys, I'd get an FP, bore it 2mm, so you'd have a 1.9. Find out if the FP head is the same as the FS. If not, flow bench them both and use the better one, and go from there......

[twilightprotege]

macs - did you use 9.1:1 compression? that'll be why they are a lot diff specs to mine.

[iluvmacs]

yes I did. I'm not going to mess with bottom end yet, although maybe I should try to design an engine from the bottom up...

[iluvmacs]

That kia sportage engine, with the square 86x86 bore x stroke, is for sale on ebay for less than $300

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7904606793&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[p5sundevil]

I had a curious idea before, Im sure most people have seen the recent SCC article about honda new big block conversion thats possible. Basically mating a K20A top end from an RSx with a K24 bottom end from a CRX or other K24 based car and you then have the beneficial properties of the RSX head with the cams and so forth but a 2.4 engine with the K24 bottom end. Supposedly just doing this conversion bumped the output to about 189whp, hasports blown version supposedly makes 300+ hp with very low psi.

Anyway what Im leading to is the question on if there are any engines similar enough to our to do a swap like that. I sincerely doubt it, mazda doesnt use such similar characteristics between all the engine platforms as honda does obviously but it would be a huge find for any NA guy, being able to go to such a bigger displacement engine, while maintaining the proprties of your head and getting a bonus 30-50hp out of it.

[iluvmacs]

I'm not aware of any interchangeability in mazda engines. I sold a civic I had for quite some time and I got used to the similarity between other cars.

All I know is that certain miata engines have a head that will fit the protege engine. That goes for the ford probe/626 as well, but I don't know of any performance or design advantage to either.

[p5sundevil]

yah in the case of the honda big block conversion it was the bottom end they were borrowing from another platform that had a larger displacement. which is sweet.

Only other car I have seen a similar swap work with (and I mean 2 different engines not a typeR head on a regular b16 or b18 bottom)is the old and new SER's, supposedly the SR20DET bottom end with the QR25DET head from the new SE-R's does similar stuff, not more displacement but supposedly makes more power in a better band with a higher redline. Another thing Id love to do if I were evr rich enough to have project cars.

[Installshield 2]

Ya, I had all the information at my disposal, but never did the math....

B18C5s have a ratio of 1.58, so obviously rod ratio isn't all of the story. Other than high piston speeds, there's nothing saying a low rod ratio can't make lots of high RPM power.

Yeah the B18C5 always comes around to go against some "general" claims...Its also undersquare, and breathes better than a ton of engines...Its the damn head on that thing...I don't think an FS owner needs to screw with the "squareness" of it to get noticable NA power...It will mostly come down to the header, intake manifold, and proper cams + tuning to get incredible gains...as well as new internals to handle the high rpm stress...

The dwell times incorporated with low rod ratio engines do have a decent ability to hinder breathing...at such high piston speeds, and with such little dwell time, you can loose scavaging affects as well as advantage vacuums (in which fresh air travels into the cylinder while the piston is "dwelling" at BDC, due to the intake vacuum still existing...thus adding "advantage" power due to an increase of reactant...it will almost stop immediately after BDC when the piston begins to travel back up the cylinder)...

this all centers around the need for higher duration cams on a low rod ratio engine...it won't be the best for lowend torque, but will keep the valves open long enough when the speeds get higher, and allow much more air to flow in than otherwise (and exhaust to get out)....

Screw that though...Someone needs to come out with a F1 type pnuematic valve train for proteges...Ferrari's F2000 V-10 had a bore of 98mm and a stroke of 41mm...and a fully pnuematic valve system that would litterally adjust timing for every 200rpm...making a powerband start around 8grand, and sing all the way to 18,000rpm (with a peak whp rating of roughly 1100...and in nuetral the engine was capable of accelerating from 8k to 18k in about 1/4 of a second!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)...Schumy got pissed on occasion at Juan Pablo, and would bump off the limiter to climb all the way north of 20,000rpm...and it handled it...and I am rambling about some NA gods...

[Gen1GT]

There are advantages and disadvantages to either long or short rod ratios. 1.6 is pretty much middle of the road. 2 is extremely high for a street car. As long as you tune with regards to your own rod ratio, they can both have advantages over the other.

As far as Mazda hybrids, there are very few. The FE3 is almost such, but it's a factory engine. It's got a BP style head, with the super strong F2 bottom end. It's probably Mazda's best engine to come from their factory before the new L-Series engines. It's stronger than the BP, which can handle 400whp on the stock bottom end. A large turbo FE3 would have some SERIOUS power.

2001 Miata heads are much better than the BP05 heads of the earlier BPs. Ports flow much better, and have solid lifters rather than the HLAs. They also have larger cams.

As far as I know, the FE3 is the same block as the FS. Don't quote me, but they're in the same family anyways. FS, FP and FE3 are the only DOHC F-series engines. Maybe someone should try an FE3 swap? More power, and more importantly, more power potential.

http://members.aol.com/solomiata/FE3.html

[iluvmacs]

Install: I thought the F1 engine makers dropped the pneumatic valvetrain because it wasn't reliable... Correct me if I'm wrong. Beautiful concept though.

Gen1: If all the F-series blocks are the same, theoretically the FE3 head should fit on the FS block, and it would be just like that writeup SCC did with the honda engines. A better flowing head, on a stroked out block. I just ran numbers from that link (the head flow numbers for the FE3 head) and the possibilities seem endless. When you get a head that flows that well, you can custom tailor the performance of the engine however you want it. I was finally able to see all kinds of changes with cam advance/retard.

Now I'm intrigued...

[akhilleus]

This is something definately worth looking into.
edit: i didnt see anything that said the FE3 head could mount to an FS block. Only to the F2 used on pre 92 626 and probe. The FS is used after that date. There may also be the distributor issue. IM looks similar and had VICS though. need more info cause i bet there are alot of 95+ kia sportage parts or pre 92 mazda/ford parts around

[Installshield 2]

Install: I thought the F1 engine makers dropped the pneumatic valvetrain because it wasn't reliable... Correct me if I'm wrong. Beautiful concept though.

Gen1: If all the F-series blocks are the same, theoretically the FE3 head should fit on the FS block, and it would be just like that writeup SCC did with the honda engines. A better flowing head, on a stroked out block. I just ran numbers from that link (the head flow numbers for the FE3 head) and the possibilities seem endless. When you get a head that flows that well, you can custom tailor the performance of the engine however you want it. I was finally able to see all kinds of changes with cam advance/retard.

Now I'm intrigued...
Finding decent info on F1 engines is a fight within itself...I honestly do not know what the current V10's are using...I know the F2000 was using a pnuematic system for at least a third of the season, as well as BMW...But I don't know what they are using as of now...

The way I heard it was the lack of reliability with cam laden hydraulicly controlled systems...(hydraulics controlled the timing progressively), and they simply would not withstand continued 18,000 rpm runs...So they engineered the pnuematic system, which has not rotating cam shafts...But they then also changed the rules or something, in which an Engine could only be rebuilt every 4 races unless it has noticable problems...which put a big effort into reliability by every team, and some teams were having big problems with the valve system...that was about 4 years ago, and i have not heard much of anything new, except that they may go to V-8's next year...

You weren't refering to the type of system for the street right? The new M5 was supposedly being developed with a pnuematic valve'd V-10, but the idea was dropped because there was really no need for it...its redline is low enough for camshafts, and the pnuematic plumbing and compressors just add weight...So last I heard, that idea was dropped...and the M5's new V-10 will have a more traditional valvetrain...

[p5sundevil]

Ok so it is or isnt possible to mate a FE3 head to an FS bottom end? and this would do similar things like a SR20 QR25 hybrid? making a bigger more usable power band with higher numbers in the first place.

Plus with more flow that would mean more gains would be realized from each subsequent mod right? That was one reason they loved the QR25 in the new SER's, it supposedly showed big reactions to simple bolt ons, like 12whp with a stillen header alone.

[akhilleus]

I wonder if the valvetrain is the same? And could u retain the stock valve cover? i have a feeling it isnt as easy as it seems.
edit: i found alot of info
http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58099
this is on possible miata engine swaps and general mazda engine history
http://members.aol.com/solomiata/MX5Engine.html
i dont believe it is possible to swap the head, however the engine could be swapped and mated to a G series tranny with excellent results. these engines are very powerful.

[SuperWagon502]

Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....
Yeah he's right, I beat up on LX's and I think they have the 1.8 and I'm stock! <p5> Now you also have the Vx and Dx civics. I beat on them too. Hell I too ka modded DX at he track who was all happy about his 18's with cams pullys intake, exhaust and header. Stock I still took him by a full second. but I was only happy cause I shut his mouth. I believe the sentence was "Hey buddy, your Civic just got beat by a wagon."

[Installshield 2]

I wonder if the valvetrain is the same? And could u retain the stock valve cover? i have a feeling it isnt as easy as it seems.
edit: i found alot of info
http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58099
this is on possible miata engine swaps and general mazda engine history
http://members.aol.com/solomiata/MX5Engine.html
i dont believe it is possible to swap the head, however the engine could be swapped and mated to a G series tranny with excellent results. these engines are very powerful.

Any ideas on the FS mounts compared to the FE3's?...Meaning would it take some crazy custom pieces, or do they pretty much match up...

Sorry if it is in those links...the links are not working for me, but right now I am on an ancient desktop with a Pentium 133, and dial-up...took me an hour just to log in to the forum.......................................

[Gen1GT]

Did you find my post about the FE3s? That would be SWEEEEET, if they were a direct swap with the FS!

http://members.aol.com/solomiata/FE3.html

Install, you should check out a Sportage, see if everything looks the same. If it is, I'm sure you can get a dirt cheap FE3, since not too many people even know it's a Mazda engine. Put in higher compression pistons, regrind the cams a bit with a stand-alone, and you're looking at 150whp right off the bat.

[akhilleus]

The mounts are different and the bellhouse for the tranny is different. It would have to be custom made. But if u look at some of the numbers it puts down its pretty nice for the time, even now. Looking at it the intake manifold looks similar to ours, it had VICS, and was dual runner i believe. But the ports might not match. It looked like there was a location for a distributor gear, like the probe/626 fs-de head. It might not have all the sensors like , cam gear/crank sensor. A swap would make more sense but i cant see how an early 90's engine would swap easily into a 2k2 protege.

[p5sundevil]

wow, i wish I knew enough to understand all that shit =) but im learning...

anyway so a swap of an FE3 mated to our stock trannies is not only possible but beneficial because of how much better that one flows. I also saw in Gen1's link that it has 11mm between cylinders meaning it can be overbored a decent amount and hold it, unlike our blocks. be nice to see what it could flow properly bored out to 2.2 or 2.3 with compensational porting and polishing within that and the IM.

I saw a couple reasons why a head to bottom end swap cant be done is the distributor electronics of it and they said something about the oil return lines being quite different.

So anyone know where you can get FE3 crate engines and how much they go for? =)

not that I would do this in the near future, or probably ever, but it picks my curiosity.

[akhilleus]

They mentioned a japanese import engine website either on the faq or aol link. also it si the same as the late 90's sportage so maybe through kia.

[Gen1GT]

Find yourself a wrecked Kia Sportage, which would be extremely cheap. As the site says, it's exactly the same other than ECU tuning. The version with 170hp has 10:1 compression, which wouldn't be hard to do with the Sportage version with some cutom pistons.

If I didn't already have a spare engine, I think I'd pick one of these up. It already has more hp to start with, plus you can do a 2.5mm overbore no problem. Makes you think....

This site has all the info you need..

http://www.stormpages.com/fe3t/Tech/FE3.html

[akhilleus]

Yeah it is a very nice engine stock... it has room for alot of power. And it has already been shown to handle boost. Someone should look into this.