Q for MSP FMIC owners

[Heathen23]

This question is for all of the msp owners with a FMIC kit and the stock radiator.

All of the fmic kits available block the lower portion of our already small radiator. Besides adding a larger radiator (which can only be done with the Ion kit) there isn't much of a remedy for this problem.

So the question is; how many of you are having issues with running too hot as a result of blocking the radiator?

The wagner and Hiboost kits do not allow for a larger radiator but I am not interested in buying from Ion. So I just want to hear if anyone has any ideas, comments, or input on how to deal with this issue (or if it really is an issue at all).

[boostisgood]

I never had an issue with heat with my FMIC in the car.

[Heathen23]

I never had an issue with heat with my FMIC in the car.
Did you happen to have a way to monitor temps beside the play-skool stock temp gauge? btw thanks for the reply!

[505zoom]

I have no issues with heat and the iON kit. I only have the stock gauge, but I can feel the heat after a hard run, and it is not much different than the stock setup. I also have a vented hood though, and I'm sure that helps.

[Heathen23]

I have no issues with heat and the iON kit. I only have the stock gauge, but I can feel the heat after a hard run, and it is not much different than the stock setup. I also have a vented hood though, and I'm sure that helps.Well, the good news on that kit is that if you were experiencing any overheating issues you could put in a larger radiator (i.e. p5 rad). I'm only a little concerned about this issue because if you remember back to one of the earlier testers (turboge) had this issue of running hot as a result of the fmic. Much like you 505 the temps during the warm season are extremely high here.

Can either of you share your experience with the fmic since the weather has begun to heat up. Is the car such a dog? Here in NC we get brutal humidity and from day one of the heat the car feels like it's been neutered. I'm realize the fmic provides the extra hp but does the function result in a greater everyday consistancy to driving?

Again, thanks for the replies. I'm ready to take the plunge I just want to hear some owners input on if it's worth it and the risks involved. (rtfm) doing the homework ya know

[CRDMS1]

I think turboge is the only member that has actual data associated with the FMIC effect on water temps. You'll have to search the threads for that. He was running the iON setup. Also, as you already mentioned, the stock gauge is essentially meaningless for tracking water temps.

My practical 'street' experience is that the fan cycles far more than it did prior to the FMIC install. I also had an incident of overtemp (stock gauge) on the track last summer at 105+ ambient temps. I attribute this to the FMIC blocking flow.

I am scheduled to receive the upgraded radiator/fan combo from AWR (www.awrracing.com (http://www.awrracing.com)) this Wednesday. I'll let you know how it goes!

Peace...(hippy)

[Heathen23]

I think turboge is the only member that has actual data associated with the FMIC effect on water temps. You'll have to search the threads for that. He was running the iON setup. Also, as you already mentioned, the stock gauge is essentially meaningless for tracking water temps.

My practical 'street' experience is that the fan cycles far more than it did prior to the FMIC install. I also had an incident of overtemp (stock gauge) on the track last summer at 105+ ambient temps. I attribute this to the FMIC blocking flow.

I am scheduled to receive the upgraded radiator/fan combo from AWR (www.awrracing.com (http://www.awrracing.com/)) this Wednesday. I'll let you know how it goes!

Peace...(hippy)
Yeah, I looked over his posts. It's a bit scattered because he left the project a bit unfinished or unreported.

I assume you are running the ion kit so you can use a full length radiator from AWR? That is a pretty easy project (besides the cost) to do with the ion kit. With other kits running a wider rad isn't an option and that is my concern:( Thanks again for the feedback guys(cool)

[srtchick]

I never had an issue with heat with my FMIC in the car.Ditto :D

[nattyboy513]

will a coolant addent and a higher pressure radiotor cap not help out? that seems like the most inexpensive fix to me. i mean granted its not going to be as effective as buyinga new radiator, but it is alot better than doing nothing. also removing the weater stripping is post to help.

[Brian MP5T]

When mounting the FMIC try to keep it as far foreward, away from the rad as possible if you are worried about heat transfer from the FMIC to the Rad.

[CRDMS1]

Yeah, I looked over his posts. It's a bit scattered because he left the project a bit unfinished or unreported.

I assume you are running the ion kit so you can use a full length radiator from AWR? That is a pretty easy project (besides the cost) to do with the ion kit. With other kits running a wider rad isn't an option and that is my concern:( Thanks again for the feedback guys(cool)
I've been running the iON CAI/FMIC since last summer. I'm installing the full length radiator and fan assembly from AWR only because I run the car on the track. I don't think it's necessary for street driving or drag racing.


I never had an issue with heat with my FMIC in the car.
I don't think you will notice anything on the stock gauge unless you are running the engine hard for longer durations. My gauge didn't start climbing past 'normal' until the 15-minute mark (or so) of a lapping session in 105F+ heat.

Peace...(hippy)

[CRDMS1]

When mounting the FMIC try to keep it as far foreward, away from the rad as possible if you are worried about heat transfer from the FMIC to the Rad.
My feeling is that it's an airflow issue (resriction in the lower grill opening) as opposed to heat transfer.

Peace...(hippy)

[Heathen23]

I've been running the iON CAI/FMIC since last summer. I'm installing the full length radiator and fan assembly from AWR only because I run the car on the track. I don't think it's necessary for street driving or drag racing.


I don't think you will notice anything on the stock gauge unless you are running the engine hard for longer durations. My gauge didn't start climbing past 'normal' until the 15-minute mark (or so) of a lapping session in 105F+ heat.

Peace...(hippy)
Yeah I do not plan on running laps in 105* heat anytime soon because we almost never break 100* here. It is brutally humid from mid June to mid september but tripple didgets are an extreme rarity. But it's a bit scary to think that you got the stock gauge to rise considering it basically never budges.

Anybody have input on the tangeable increase in cooling and/or driveability as compared to stock? I'm just looking for an open discussion on the cooling issue along with owners experience on the improvement as the dog days of summer approach quickly.

[Heathen23]

My feeling is that it's an airflow issue (resriction in the lower grill opening) as opposed to heat transfer.

Peace...(hippy)
Correct-o-mundo. You are somewhat blocking an already blocked and small radiator in a car that inherently runs hot.

[CRDMS1]

Yeah I do not plan on running laps in 105* heat anytime soon because we almost never break 100* here. It is brutally humid from mid June to mid september but tripple didgets are an extreme rarity. But it's a bit scary to think that you got the stock gauge to rise considering it basically never budges.

Anybody have input on the tangeable increase in cooling and/or driveability as compared to stock? I'm just looking for an open discussion on the cooling issue along with owners experience on the improvement as the dog days of summer approach quickly.
Sorry I don't have actual data to back up my claims, but I don't believe street or drag applications will experience significant cooling problems due to any of the FMIC kits. Your fans may run a bit more often and longer, but that's fine...as long as they turn off eventually :D

Your performance will suffer in the summer ambient temps and humidity, but that's just a normal fact of life. At least the FMIC will help stabilize the intake charge vs. the stock SMIC.

Peace...(hippy)

[Brian MP5T]

My feeling is that it's an airflow issue (resriction in the lower grill opening) as opposed to heat transfer.

Peace...(hippy)
I see, There is very little noticeble diference that I have noticed except that the fan cycles a bit sooner than it would normally at a light. But as I said... If there is more room between the FMIC and the Radiator the fan will draw from below and the top before it tried to draw through the FMIC... Just an idea... I have installed a switch that is driven from a relay that comes from the ignition position on the key...

It powers the positive lead to the primary fan. I can in essence override the thermostat that would turn the fan on with a switch. I use it when the turbo timer is running. So for the 30sec-1min that the car runs without a key...The fan is running as well. It's great for traffic jams and other times that you might want the fans on... After hammering 10 Psi of boost, just to be stopped at a red light for 2 Min...

[Heathen23]

I see, There is very little noticeble diference that I have noticed except that the fan cycles a bit sooner than it would normally at a light. But as I said... If there is more room between the FMIC and the Radiator the fan will draw from below and the top before it tried to draw through the FMIC... Just an idea... I have installed a switch that is driven from a relay that comes from the ignition position on the key...

It powers the positive lead to the primary fan. I can in essence override the thermostat that would turn the fan on with a switch. I use it when the turbo timer is running. So for the 30sec-1min that the car runs without a key...The fan is running as well. It's great for traffic jams and other times that you might want the fans on... After hammering 10 Psi of boost, just to be stopped at a red light for 2 Min...
You still have the luxury of running a full length radiator which is a big advantage to manage this particular issue. Interesting set up though, I'm guessing I'd slack off and forget to cycle the fan on my own.

[Heathen23]

Anybody have input on the tangeable increase in cooling and/or driveability as compared to stock? I'm just looking for an open discussion on the cooling issue along with owners experience on the improvement as the dog days of summer approach quickly.
bump0rs-


save me from this nc heat!

[skilletrx]

/subscribe/ + bump

jux tryin to learn more

[Brian MP5T]

You still have the luxury of running a full length radiator which is a big advantage to manage this particular issue. Interesting set up though, I'm guessing I'd slack off and forget to cycle the fan on my own.

It still comes on normally. I can simply force it to stay on... :)

[Brian MP5T]

What about the coolant additives...

[Brian MP5T]

AWR Makes a fucking sweet radiator!!

[CRDMS1]

AWR Makes a fucking sweet radiator!!
Mine just arrived today via UPS. It is a really awesome looking piece of work!

Peace...(hippy)

[Heathen23]

AWR Makes a fucking sweet radiator!!
Heh, yeah. I know they do. The problem is that will only work with the ION fmic. All the other kits use the stock smic location to route the plumbing so there is no room for a larger/longer radiator. It's a pretty easy (but not cheap) issue to address if you use a kit that involves cutting and routing the plumbing elsewhere. But if the kit routes the plumbing through the smic stock location you really can't use an aftermarket radiator. Your p5 radiator would actually be sufficient for an msp running the ion kit. The interesting thing is that I don't get the feeling people even running the ion kit are upgrading the radiator. So it basically sounds like the car maintains at safe levels w/o the upgraded radiator but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting a false read from my impressions.

And the fan switch is a nice little feature you have added. I really have to wonder how often mine will turn on with the addition of a fmic considering it already runs quite often.

[Brian MP5T]

Heh, yeah. I know they do. The problem is that will only work with the ION fmic....
You could go custom... I had to.

[Brian MP5T]

Mine just arrived today via UPS. It is a really awesome looking piece of work!

Peace...(hippy)

Post some pics if you can when you get som time please...(evil)

[djtest]

I have a fmic and until I changed from my coolings "winter mix " it ran soooooooooooo damn hot. but not I am mostly water in a nice "summer mix " and it's right back to where it was in stock form !

[marashka]

"water wetter" might help a little. depending on your mixture of water/coolant it calims to lower the temp from 7 to 30+ degrees

[Heathen23]

I have a fmic and until I changed from my coolings "winter mix " it ran soooooooooooo damn hot. but not I am mostly water in a nice "summer mix " and it's right back to where it was in stock form !
Which kit djtest?

[iON Performance]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - upgrading your radiator to the full length one like the P5 will allow your car to run lower coolant temps. We generally recommend this for those who track their car (road racing etc). It would be also beneficial in heavy rush-hour type traffic. Running a different coolant mix, higher pressure rad cap, and Redline water wetter will help as well if you're on the stock MSP radiator.

[Heathen23]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - upgrading your radiator to the full length one like the P5 will allow your car to run lower coolant temps. We generally recommend this for those who track their car (road racing etc). It would be also beneficial in heavy rush-hour type traffic. Running a different coolant mix, higher pressure rad cap, and Redline water wetter will help as well if you're on the stock MSP radiator.
Thanks Jack.

It basically sounds like the general consensus is it's not a major issue and there are a few preventitive measures that can be taken. But unless you are going to track the car (not strip but road race) it's not a major concern. I'm pretty neurotic so it's good to know no one is having a major issue with overheating with the small msp radiator combined with the fmic.


One last thing if anyone cares to respond. Is it worth it? A few people have mentioned to me that the performance difference is minor which suprised me since dynos seem to put most kits in the 20hp range. I realize it's designed to increase the consistancy of temps but considering it's generating relatively large numbers on a dyno is it really not noticeable?

Thanks for the all the responses!

[CRDMS1]

It basically sounds like the general consensus is it's not a major issue and there are a few preventitive measures that can be taken. But unless you are going to track the car (not strip but road race) it's not a major concern.
You've summarized it well, I think.


One last thing if anyone cares to respond. Is it worth it? A few people have mentioned to me that the performance difference is minor which suprised me since dynos seem to put most kits in the 20hp range. I realize it's designed to increase the consistancy of temps but considering it's generating relatively large numbers on a dyno is it really not noticeable?
At stock boost or 1-2 PSI higher, I don't think an FMIC will buy you gobs of performance. It will flow better and have less pressure drop, so you will see a small increase in power.

That said, the higher you plan to boost, the more critical it becomes to have an upgraded intercooler. The corresponding power gains will be larger per PSI with an upgraded flow/cooling path.


Thanks for the all the responses!
No problem. I don't mind participating in threads that promote good dialogue and don't degenerate to name calling and finger pointing :D

[FC3s Boy]

we have put a few fmic kits on cars here and never had a problem with overheating even on TBL's car with a HUGE FMIC-

[Heathen23]

we have put a few fmic kits on cars here and never had a problem with overheating even on TBL's car with a HUGE FMIC-
Using a bazooka to kill a seagull! That's ginourmous. Looks nice though. He needs to use some elbow grease (or in this case some chrome polish) to clean up those endtanks.



At stock boost or 1-2 PSI higher, I don't think an FMIC will buy you gobs of performance. It will flow better and have less pressure drop, so you will see a small increase in power.

That said, the higher you plan to boost, the more critical it becomes to have an upgraded intercooler. The corresponding power gains will be larger per PSI with an upgraded flow/cooling path.

Yeah, I definitely realize upped boost is where the fmic plays the biggest role for power but why the big dyno numbers? FMIC's aren't typical power plants in any car, simply a support/efficiency mod. Maybe Jack from ion or someone else might have some insight why most fmic's are dynoing in the range of 20hp on the MSP because to me, although a nice feature, doesn't seem intuitive.

[FC3s Boy]

[QUOTE=Heathen23]Using a bazooka to kill a seagull! That's ginourmous. Looks nice though. He needs to use some elbow grease (or in this case some chrome polish) to clean up those endtanks.[QUOTE=Heathen23]

Yea this was a one off for a guy who wanted a big kit, the other kits will have a smaller IC core- chris @ spd

[celdridge]

I dont know if it will help or not, but i used to have this problem in my 2g Eclipse GST with the FMIC. The stock radiator sucks on it too. I used to use about to bottles of a chemical called Water Wetter in the radiator and it cooled its temperature down by about 15 - 20 deg. Seemed to always work well for me. You should try it out.

Chad
(flame2)

[celdridge]

I should really start reading previous quotes better.

(freak)

[iON Performance]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - a well designed FMIC set-up will try to minimize any pressure drops. That being said, as your vehicle runs, heat increases. On the stock I/C set-up, both the pipes and end tanks are prone to boost leak. This is one of the factors as to why there are "gains" from doing the FMIC. The FMIC is designed to reduce power loss as temperature goes up (compared to the stock set-up), which is the reason why the harder the runs (and longer the runs) the larger the difference in power output pre/post FMIC install.

Another reason why there are some gains with a properly designed FMIC is that you have increased the "reserve" amount of air between the turbo and throttle body. (ie: larger volume).

The gains etc are all relative to the car being static or in motion.

Our philosphy is to maximize the efficiency out of the vehicle, such that for every increase in boost pressure, the maximum potential is yielded w/ minimal stress to the car. Thus increasing the duribility & lifetime of use.

[Heathen23]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - a well designed FMIC set-up will try to minimize any pressure drops. That being said, as your vehicle runs, heat increases. On the stock I/C set-up, both the pipes and end tanks are prone to boost leak. This is one of the factors as to why there are "gains" from doing the FMIC. The FMIC is designed to reduce power loss as temperature goes up (compared to the stock set-up), which is the reason why the harder the runs (and longer the runs) the larger the difference in power output pre/post FMIC install.

Another reason why there are some gains with a properly designed FMIC is that you have increased the "reserve" amount of air between the turbo and throttle body. (ie: larger volume).

Yeah, I completely understand (as would anyone else) why over a number of runs a fmic has greater efficiency thus showing better hp numbers than the same car w/o a less efficient ic. But that would show a number that holds more consistant not an increasing or gain hp number.

"Another reason why there are some gains with a properly designed FMIC is that you have increased the "reserve" amount of air between the turbo and throttle body"

^is the only reason why I would see an increase (not just a greater consistancy) to hp numbers.

Thanks Jack for very complete and helpful answers!

[iON Performance]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - the reason why the differences in power figures gets larger and larger is when air becomes heated, it requires less space. It also has less "potential energy" (b/c of less O2 molecules per given volume). Thus when an I/C core is heat soaked, every consecuative run will be lower then the previous until you hit a "saturation point" at which the #'s don't get any lower. The point at which the I/C hits the saturation point is the real measure of power difference. That's the reason why we tested our own set-up till it hit saturation.

[Heathen23]

Heathen23 (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?u=3176) - the reason why the differences in power figures gets larger and larger is when air becomes heated, it requires less space. It also has less "potential energy" (b/c of less O2 molecules per given volume). Thus when an I/C core is heat soaked, every consecuative run will be lower then the previous until you hit a "saturation point" at which the #'s don't get any lower. The point at which the I/C hits the saturation point is the real measure of power difference. That's the reason why we tested our own set-up till it hit saturation.
Yeah, I get that. But that is not a gain over stock, that is a gain over the decrease using the stock components over time in heat. That would explain it much better. Unlike (let's say an exhaust) that yields 20hp which is simply a gain over stock numbers, a fmic only yields an improved number better than the stocks decrease over several runs.

To clarify-

Imaginary numbers for simpllicity :

Stock car: 200hp
Add exhaust: 220hp

Stock car: 200hp
Add FMIC: 200hp

Stock car after 30 mins of driving in high temps: 180hp
FMIC car after 30 mins of driving in high temps: 200hp

Makes sense no?

If that is a not an accurate interpretation of what you are telling me please let me know. I realize there are minimal gains from going from the stock plastic to a more ridgid metal but that doesn't yield the dyno numbers we are seeing from various kits.

Sorry for the long and somewhat insane posts!

[skilletrx]

so like ur kinda saying is FMIC worth it cuz of minimal gains until the stock IC gets heatsoaked? That it is not going much until 'it gets hot in thurrr' ?

[Heathen23]

so like ur kinda saying is FMIC worth it cuz of minimal gains until the stock IC gets heatsoaked? That it is not going much until 'it gets hot in thurrr' ?
Nah, it's worth it depending upon your goals. That's not the discussion for me actually. I just thought it was weird that a typical support mod (fmic) for power was dynoing large gains. It's ideal for consistency no doubt, but the gains over stock aren't as plain as say adding a boost controller, a larger turbo, or an open exhaust.