Ideas on reaching 250hp-reliably

[jeffmsp]

hey everyone,

being new to the msp, i was wondering if i could get your opinions on how to reach the 250 hp mark reliably. It doesnt have to be the cheapest route (cheap doesnt tend to mix with reliable), but i would like your ideas/opinions. I have no experience with the FS motor (i prefer the b series personnally, not sure why they didnt use the 1.8bp in the mazdaspeed like they did in the miatamazdaspeed) But anyways, thanks for your time.

Jeff

[pdhaudio83]

reliably? You're talking upgraded turbo- perhaps a gt28rs ('disco potato') pehaps with custom trim if you wanted to REALLY push it. Standalone, custom tuned computer mapping ($$$$$$$$), injectors, axels, maybe *some* tranny work, etc.

$6500 for that with reliability. not to mention everything else you'd want to upgrade if you had 250hp.

[INGREXCO]

if all that were done wouldnt it allow u to go past the 250 mark?

[mazdaspeedpower]

ask discreetspeed, he knows all about the 250hp mark, as do several other people, he's just the only one I can think of right now.

[MazdaNeal]

if all that were done wouldnt it allow u to go past the 250 mark?
Yes but by detuning it a bit to 250 it would be much more reliable than if you were pushing the limits at 250.

[ONRAILS]

hey everyone,

being new to the msp, i was wondering if i could get your opinions on how to reach the 250 hp mark reliably. It doesnt have to be the cheapest route (cheap doesnt tend to mix with reliable), but i would like your ideas/opinions. I have no experience with the FS motor (i prefer the b series personnally, not sure why they didnt use the 1.8bp in the mazdaspeed like they did in the miatamazdaspeed) But anyways, thanks for your time.

Jeff
I'd think you would want to strengthen the engine internals first. They your typical bolt-ons, i.e. CAI, FMIC, MBC, FCD, DP, CAT-BACK, and set boost to like 12-15. You'd easily be up there, and it would be reliable... I think. Then again, I may read to many magazines! lol

[low_psi]

First off, there's a lot of mis-information already. 250bhp doesn't take many mods, but it does take the proper ones.

SRI, FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, Boost Control & EMS- BAM 250hp.

Reliability will be decided by which EMS you use. Checkout the tuning forum for options: MPI Tuner Piggyback, AEM PnP, Microtech, Haltech etc. We all have our preferences.

[pdhaudio83]

yes, you'd want forged internals. i figured the price of them in. you'd also need high octane gas.

[pdhaudio83]

mx3- he said he didnt want to take the "CHEAP" way

[jersey_emt]

You can reach 250hp with the stock turbo.

Forged internals of course.

Go with the standard bolt ons: SRI, FMIC, full 2.5" or 3" turboback.
Get the AEM PnP EMS.
IC sprayer or water/alcohol injection.
ACT street clutch.
Tranny should be fine if you don't abuse it.
Up the boost until you reach 250whp...shouldn't really be that high (probably under 15psi)

Should easily make > 250whp. Plus with the AEM, and the water/alk injection, should be very reliable.

[low_psi]

yes, but forged internals and non-pump gas is ridiculous for a goal of a reliable 250bhp.

it can easily be achieved with basic boltons and proper tuning. if you want more than 240-250whp, that's when I'd consider internals.

oh, don't forget you'll need a clutch :)

[low_psi]

You can reach 250hp with the stock turbo.

Forged internals of course.

IC sprayer or water/alcohol injection.


Should easily make > 250whp. Plus with the AEM, and the water/alk injection, should be very reliable.
Water/Alc injection is not needed for 250bhp or whp... The internals will NOT give out at 250bhp..

[jersey_emt]

He said he wanted reliability.

The stock internals *should* hold 250WHP with proper tuning, but to be on the safe side, I would want to be forged before I reach that level.

And water or alch injection cools things down significantly, increasing both power AND reliability.

[instylz]

jersey_emt lays the smack down!

[low_psi]

He said he wanted reliability.

The stock internals *should* hold 250WHP with proper tuning, but to be on the safe side, I would want to be forged before I reach that level.

And water or alch injection cools things down significantly, increasing both power AND reliability.
I agree that 250whp calls for new internals rather quickly, but he's stated 250hp, so until he can clear up where he wants all those ponies I think its best to not potentially exaggerate the extensive-ness of the required modifications.

Water/Alc would be great, but its just not needed at only 250b/whp. Money would be better spent on a new radiator and fans IMO. 250b/whp is not some HUGE deal. Next people are going to reccomend dropping compression to 7.5:1 :rolleyes:

[DZnutz]

people are confused and misinformed here, most of them are driving around in stock cars while trying to give advice... 250bhp does NOT require internals. ES's msp dynoed at 250fwhp and almost 300tq with your simple bolts ons, fuel regulator and standalone. it can and has been done people, its all in the tuning. good luck

[low_psi]

people are confused and misinformed here, most of them are driving around in stock cars while trying to give advice... 250bhp does NOT require internals. ES's msp dynoed at 250fwhp and almost 300tq with your simple bolts ons, fuel regulator and standalone. it can and has been done people, its all in the tuning. good luck
weeeeeeeeerd.

[BinaryRotary]

Heres what you need :

Hardpipes - $300
CAI - $150
FMIC or SMIC - $1000
Engine Management (Unichip, MPI, AEM) - $800
ACT, Exedy Clutch - $350
Electronic boost controller - $300
2.5" or 3.0" turbo back exhaust (Ion, Apex R1, Custom) - $1000
Pivot Water Injection control - $150

Grand total : $3150

In the performance world, theres no such thing as cheap and reliable.

[YuYuRena]

I would also suggest adding to that list that most people has colder plugs, upgraded radiator, gauges for knowing what is going on in your engine, and better brake pads and tires, cuz you'll need them to handle those new power of yours

[BlueMP5Dave]

Standalone / piggyback, boost controller, Intake, Exhaust, Intercooler with hardpipes, Higher flow fuel pump, Wide-band O2 to ensure proper mix, Egt guage to watch temps, Lots of tuning.

Do forget Clutch when it dies you must upgrade!

Although I don't have my turbo project done, this is the route I am taking once the Turbo is installed. I have the research complete it is just putting it to use.

I think you have set a resonable goal. Do it right and take your time.

[jersey_emt]

Heres what you need :

Hardpipes - $300
CAI - $150
FMIC or SMIC - $100
Engine Management (Unichip, MPI, AEM) - $800
ACT, Exedy Clutch - $350
Electronic boost controller - $300
2.5" or 3.0" turbo back exhaust (Ion, Apex R1, Custom) - $1000
Pivot Water Injection control - $150

Grand total : $2250

In the performance world, theres no such thing as cheap and reliable.
A $100 intercooler? ;)

[igdrasil]

A $100 intercooler? ;)
sure why not

[BlueMP5Dave]

Edited mine good call

[igdrasil]

remember the clutch...

[BlueMP5Dave]

Can ride clutch till it craps out but good thinking.

[Pkay]

people are confused and misinformed here, most of them are driving around in stock cars while trying to give advice... 250bhp does NOT require internals. ES's msp dynoed at 250fwhp and almost 300tq with your simple bolts ons, fuel regulator and standalone. it can and has been done people, its all in the tuning. good lucknotice the guy said reliably.


if you arent running forged internals and running that far above stock boost you're going to eventually encounter problems.

running forged internals expands your horizons as far as how far your car can go reliably.

while it can be done without them, if you're gonna be putting that much money into a car might as well put the cash into insuring it'll stick around for a few years

[jurgs01]

Experienced tuning and a good knowledge of what's going on in an engine under all circumstances is a must if you want to go above 250 whp RELIABLY. How many people here can tune a standalone on this engine for maximum safe performance at all boost levels? Forged internals expand your error margin, especially when learning to tune.

[shaolin]

I think the number one concern here should be tuning. A good standalone, or if ever there will be a piggy back that works, then I think that would be the key to running "reliably." To me I'd get the forged internals just to have peace of mind.

[DZnutz]

notice the guy said reliably.


if you arent running forged internals and running that far above stock boost you're going to eventually encounter problems.

running forged internals expands your horizons as far as how far your car can go reliably.

while it can be done without them, if you're gonna be putting that much money into a car might as well put the cash into insuring it'll stick around for a few years
reliability is VERY subjective. anything you mod reduces it reliability... so if you consider a stock car reliable adding 100hp will prove that it is no longer reliable no matter how you go about it. its also a gamble... so some people will run their unreliable modded cars for years without problems while others will begin having problems right from the start. in my opinion there is no such thing as a reliable modded car, and so those two dont belong in the same sentence for me. in either case research this yourself and dont just rely on what some kids on an internet forum recommend to you. through my own experience ive found that alot of the advice that goes around most forums is passed from one fools thread to anothers and those people never actually had any first hand experience in the first place. good luck

[Pkay]

reliability is VERY subjective. anything you mod reduces it reliability... so if you consider a stock car reliable adding 100hp will prove that it is no longer reliable no matter how you go about it. its also a gamble... so some people will run their unreliable modded cars for years without problems while others will begin having problems right from the start. in my opinion there is no such thing as a reliable modded car, and so those two dont belong in the same sentence for me. in either case research this yourself and dont just rely on what some kids on an internet forum recommend to you. through my own experience ive found that alot of the advice that goes around most forums is passed from one fools thread to anothers and those people never actually had any first hand experience in the first place. good luck

woooooooooooooooooah nelleh!!!! off the high horse


you're assuming everyone here is a noob to cars and doesnt know shit

Truth is if you're running any highly mod'd car (namely boosting above stock) you're a fool not to take every precaution within reason. Forged internals are going to give you a lot more margin for error in regards to boost spikes. On top of that you're also going to be able to tune your engine (within reason) without worrying about fucking your car up.

We had a huge discussion about forged internals before and determined a few things.

1) not many of us are at the point where we NEED forged internals but many of us are at the point where having them would give us needed comfort

2) few piggy back or stand alone ecus are available for our cars so every added preventitive maintenance feature is a plus if we are modding our cars.


So, once again... it's not some noob mentality or some passed down retarted myth that forged internals would be good for a reliable car. With forged internals you have added reliability on your car.... end of fucking story

[Notorious]

u could hit the 250 mark without a turbo upgrade or forged internals. standalone and supporting mods will hit the mark. fmic, exhaust, intake etc etc

[DZnutz]

woooooooooooooooooah nelleh!!!! off the high horse


you're assuming everyone here is a noob to cars and doesnt know shit

Truth is if you're running any highly mod'd car (namely boosting above stock) you're a fool not to take every precaution within reason. Forged internals are going to give you a lot more margin for error in regards to boost spikes. On top of that you're also going to be able to tune your engine (within reason) without worrying about fucking your car up.

We had a huge discussion about forged internals before and determined a few things.

1) not many of us are at the point where we NEED forged internals but many of us are at the point where having them would give us needed comfort

2) few piggy back or stand alone ecus are available for our cars so every added preventitive maintenance feature is a plus if we are modding our cars.


So, once again... it's not some noob mentality or some passed down retarted myth that forged internals would be good for a reliable car. With forged internals you have added reliability on your car.... end of fucking storyill try to make this as short as possible... forged internals will do nothing for a car that has inherent problems (spikes, creep, etc) or isnt tuned properly (they will not increase your reliability in this case). theyre only neccessary if your looking for serious power, and you had better be tuned properly at that point. i wouldnt consider 250bhp serious hp

[Pkay]

ill try to make this as short as possible... forged internals will do nothing for a car that has inherent problems (spikes, creep, etc) or isnt tuned properly (they will not increase your reliability in this case). theyre only neccessary if your looking for serious power, and you had better be tuned properly at that point. i wouldnt consider 250bhp serious hp
It'd be safe to say had 1/2 the blown MSP engines had forged internals we'd have that many less blown msp engines.

so if you had $50 to bet on a car lasting longer than another.... and we put all said mods above, same tuning, same mods, only difference is one has forged internals and one doesnt. Which do you put your money on?


The forged internals of course




Nothing beats a finely tuned automobile. No ones contesting that. I think that's where you're getting side tracked on the forged internals. You're thinking everyones substituting that for tuning.

[mspeedpro]

there is definitly an advantage to be had with forged internals-- i dont think anyone here would argue against them if they were handed out for free... but internals are questionable at an ultimate goal of 250 IMO

[HiBoost TS]

We made 260 WHP in our P5 with stock internals with no problems at 14 psi of boost. Anyway, we later went with forged rods and 8.5:1 compression pistons (Mazda Pistons) to be in the safe side. The only weak part inside the FS engine is the connecting rod.

Here are my suggestions:

FMIC KIT
Larger GT28R or GT28RS Turbo
Haltech F10X for fuel management or E6X for Fuel and Ignition control.
Pauter Rods
Lower compression pistons if no ignition retard system is used.
ACT clutch
Cold PLugs
2.5 Cat back exhaust.

With these modifications 300WHP on 100 octane are easy to get and 250 WHP reliable on 91 octane fuel.

Here is a dyno run at 10 psi

Juan

[BinaryRotary]

A $100 intercooler? ;)
Whoops!

[jeffmsp]

well first off I would like to thank all of you for the educated responces. Its not very often you can ask a question(not to mention my first post here) and not get flamed on or have sarcastic remarks, so again thank you.

After reviewing your posts i would like to get your opinions on this setup I have planned:

1. 3 inch Turbo back exhaust with 1 highflow cat and 1 resonator going into stock muffler (does anyone know if the stock muffler can take 3" abuse?)
2. Hardpipes with FMIC
3. All corresponding gauges
(this is where i am right now 1-3 being constructed/shipped, Im not sure what these mods wil put me at, but I will hopefully be able to afford a dyno session by the end of the month-currently may 10/04)

4. Stand Alone ECU (i also have the option of having a shop reprogram(-flash-) my current ECU with different settings, would this be a better alternative, will cost me approx. $350 cdn. should allow me to add larger injectors and change the timing)
5. Increase boost pressure
6. Upgraded Clutch (does anyone know when the stock clutch is no longer able to hold)
7. Cold Plugs and 94 Octane Gas


So what do you guys think? More mods needed, or can I pull it off with good tuning? Also, will the LSD require any attention? I hear its somewhat weak from the factory...

thanks again, Jeff

[BOOSTR]

Here's what I've done so far:
MOD - HP -TQ

Injen CAI- 9.6 / 6.8
PCM Flash- 3.0 / 5.0
TurboXS- 26.0 / 24.0 ( Stage 1 ; Stage 2 develops more.)
Apex DP- 10.0 / 11.7
Greddy SP2- 5.4 / 6.3
Total Gained 54.0 / 53.8

Stock clutch is still good. Spec 2 will be its replacement.

Good luck with your car JeffMSP!

[InsidiousMSP]

The internals will NOT give out at 250bhp..Maybe not on a few 4th gear 250whp dyno pulls... but I guarentee they will give out in 5th gear. :)

[InsidiousMSP]

1. 3 inch Turbo back exhaust with 1 highflow cat and 1 resonator going into stock muffler (does anyone know if the stock muffler can take 3" abuse?)
Please do not do that, the stock muffler is very restrictive and has maybe a 2 1/4" inlet. A 3" exhaust to the stock muffler would be pointless and not gain as nearly as much power as it would with a true 3" straight muffler.


4. Stand Alone ECU (i also have the option of having a shop reprogram(-flash-) my current ECU with different settings, would this be a better alternative, will cost me approx. $350 cdn. should allow me to add
Getting rid of the stock ECU would be the first thing on my list. You will be much better off with an AEM standalone.

LSD should be fine... clutch will be on the limit.... and again, be carefull with the boost in higher gears.

[jeffmsp]

TurboXS- 26.0 / 24.0 ( Stage 1 ; Stage 2 develops more.)

This is a boost controller?

[ONRAILS]

Please do not do that, the stock muffler is very restrictive and has maybe a 2 1/4" inlet. A 3" exhaust to the stock muffler would be pointless and not gain as nearly as much power as it would with a true 3" straight muffler.


Getting rid of the stock ECU would be the first thing on my list. You will be much better off with an AEM standalone.

LSD should be fine... clutch will be on the limit.... and again, be carefull with the boost in higher gears.
How do you know that the stock muffler is restrictive? I'm curious, as I have a 2.5" apex dp, with custom 2.5" pipe to the stock muffler.