Mazda FS Stage II cams are here!!

[wagner]

Hey guys, Are NA cams are in and about to be installed. We will doing some dyno runs this week in a Protege5 with CAI, axle back and MP3 ecu. We will let everyone know how to get them and do a GB by the end of the week. The set compliment each other very well and utilizes the stock valve train. They sit on the stock degree points and should see a huge difference in drivability.
Retail pricing is $550 but the GB will be around $490. We will let everyone know shortly. If anyone has any questions feel free to contact me or Perfworks at (717) 846 1570

www.wagnermotorsports.net

[curt2go]

Nice.. Look forward to it.. TTY

[CrazyCaker]

Awesome, can't wait to see the dyno results!

[Captain KRM P5]

turbo cams in the works?

[YP5 Toronto]

Great news...and awesome work and support of our platform.

Questino...why an MP3 ECU? wouldn't it be more "practical" for the average P5 owner to see the Dyno results on a P5 ECU? not to many MP3 ecus circulating...

[curt2go]

I was wondering the same thing??? TTY

[CitizenPro]

Cant wait for comments and dyno results!! Im guessing these cams will see more power than "Mazdaspeed-Jspec Camshaft" combo that most people have, including me?

[Kooldino]

Awesome, can't wait to see the results.

[hi-perf]

me either.

do you have lift and duration specs for the cams?

[scorch70]

me either.

do you have lift and duration specs for the cams?
I dont think they'll be giving those specs out. I have seen other posts in which they said they would have wasted all of their R&D time if they just gave the specs out.


scorch70

[perfworks]

turbo cams in the works? Yes

[perfworks]

Great news...and awesome work and support of our platform.

Questino...why an MP3 ECU? wouldn't it be more "practical" for the average P5 owner to see the Dyno results on a P5 ECU? not to many MP3 ecus circulating... Because that is one of the mods the customer has.

[perfworks]

me either.

do you have lift and duration specs for the cams? No lift or duration specs will be given.

[p5sundevil]

not like it couldnt be found out but why would you want them, it is not safe to regrind stock cams to aftermarket specs and by the time you buy blank billets and have them ground it will cost you more than what perf and wagner are offering them for.

[twilightprotege]

i look forward to the results guys....shall be interesting!

[SilentSno]

Can't wait either, hmm... i get paid the 5th.... i feel my next mod coming....

[GNO]

it is not safe to regrind stock cams to aftermarket specs
Please elaborate. At that price, they're probably regrinds. Cause for concern?

[Installshield 2]

What are you guys talking about? You can't regrind our puny stock cams to anything aggressive. Also grinding a cam to a certain spec is how you "make" a cam... They start out as a stick with 8 circular discs on them...then get ground down into lobes of the required specs...These are NA cams that are bigger than the stock peices...The lobes are most likely physically larger than that of the stock pieces, in order to get adequate new duration and lift (more emphasis on duration I hope with our rod ratios...pertaining to the NA cams)...They didn't take stock cams and weld more metal on them...

The reason they are most likely not releasing specs is so chodes don't go and use their specs (that are legally theirs through the days of R&D) and buy there own blanks, then get them ground to indentical specs...thats cheap and mean...

[iluvmacs]

I'd also like to see the performance differences of advancing and retarding the cams, without actually doing it myself... Might this be part of the R&D?

Oh, please tell me that the idle sound will be changed...

[Kooldino]

I'm sure the idle will be lumpier.

[Installshield 2]

I'm sure the idle will be lumpier.
That in itself is reason enough to buy them...

[p5sundevil]

i know how they make cams from blanks but it is possible to have your stock cams worked over, it is not recommended but it is possible, like u said some people will add more metal to the lobes and then they regrind them. I nvr said it was recommended or if anyone does this....blah it was just a side comment anyway.

[Installshield 2]

I'd also like to see the performance differences of advancing and retarding the cams, without actually doing it myself... Might this be part of the R&D?

Oh, please tell me that the idle sound will be changed...
In general playing with the timing in this way will move the powerband around...It is more an application specific practice, and is influenced by the individual driver the most...With that said, it is unlikely anyone will do significant R&D on it because some people will want the power in different areas than others...Also the mods to the gears will more or less have to be done on engine's with identical other mods, which is rare...

[Installshield 2]

i know how they make cams from blanks but it is possible to have your stock cams worked over, it is not recommended but it is possible, like u said some people will add more metal to the lobes and then they regrind them. I nvr said it was recommended or if anyone does this....blah it was just a side comment anyway.
Understood...I didn't mean to sound dickish...Pissy morning for me, haha...and my comments were more directed at the other dude, I don't know why he thinks 500 bucks for two cams is for mere re-grinds...and yes you are correct there are some people that will re-cast the lobes or something for some reason...Why they even do it is beyond me though...

[CitizenPro]

That in itself is reason enough to buy them...
LOL.....exactly!!

[Familia323]

bump... so i can stay informed

[perfworks]

Understood...I didn't mean to sound dickish...Pissy morning for me, haha...and my comments were more directed at the other dude, I don't know why he thinks 500 bucks for two cams is for mere re-grinds...and yes you are correct there are some people that will re-cast the lobes or something for some reason...Why they even do it is beyond me though... Hey Install Long time no see!
Anyway the reason why many poeple hardweld the stock cams for any vehicle is because some do not have the availablity of aftermarket cam billets to work. It gets very expensive, when a good hardweld is just as good as a newly grinded billet if not better.

[sidpro5]

Just wondering if the factory P5 ECU will support these or will cam gears be needed to get the cams to function properly? Basically, will they be too radical for the factory-set timing maps?

[Installshield 2]

Hey Install Long time no see!
Anyway the reason why many poeple hardweld the stock cams for any vehicle is because some do not have the availablity of aftermarket cam billets to work. It gets very expensive, when a good hardweld is just as good as a newly grinded billet if not better.

Hey Nick,
Yeah I need to call you tonight...I have some very exciting stuff to talk about...and need some recommendations...

Anyway fair enough on the hard welding...I knew of some companies that would do it for racing purposes, and I knew the price for either a reground stock piece was extremely cheap compared to a new cam...and a very aggressive hardwelded piece was extremely expensive...In either case I didn't think you guys took that route...Again I had a shitty morning with papers and other shit do, and I didn't mean to come off like a prick to anyone :)

[perfworks]

Hey Nick,
Yeah I need to call you tonight...I have some very exciting stuff to talk about...and need some recommendations...

Anyway fair enough on the hard welding...I knew of some companies that would do it for racing purposes, and I knew the price for either a reground stock piece was extremely cheap compared to a new cam...and a very aggressive hardwelded piece was extremely expensive...In either case I didn't think you guys took that route...Again I had a shitty morning with papers and other shit do, and I didn't mean to come off like a prick to anyone :) Actually we are looking to do billets because they are available. If for some reason they are not or are short on quantity then we will do hardwelds with a core charge.
Yeah give me a call at the shop (717) 846 1570 or PM me for my new cell #

[perfworks]

Just wondering if the factory P5 ECU will support these or will cam gears be needed to get the cams to function properly? Basically, will they be too radical for the factory-set timing maps? These are mild street cams guys. The idle will be about normal but the smoothness will be felt. They provide great drivability. The more radical cams are our stage III that we are working on. They will be for the guys who want to go all out on NA application with no forced induction.
These stage II cams are great upgrades for both NA and FI because of the complimented lift they provide to the stock setup.
The factory timing is pretty conservative on the P5. That is actually our test vehicle. With premium fuel you will be fine.

[Javo]

Nice just in time I have $$$$!!!!!

[Javo]

I will wait then for the stage III..

[Subghetto]

What's the difference between Stage l, Stage II, and Stage III cams ??

[CrazyCaker]

The factory timing is pretty conservative on the P5. That is actually our test vehicle. With premium fuel you will be fine.

But, you guys are testing a P5 that has a MP3 ecu! Will you be providing dynos from a P5 that is actually using a P5 ecu? (uhm)

[mp3moose]

How will the valves hold up to the stage three cams?

[mp5smuggler]

i know its stupid but what about the stage 1 cams? are they basically the mazda speed cams?

[stdntDrvr]

how much harder are these than the j-spec cams?

[Kooldino]

How will the valves hold up to the stage three cams?
Great question.

Are valve springs in the works?

[Installshield 2]

Great question.

Are valve springs in the works?
I read in another thread that the were working on some titanium valve springs and other upgrades in order to handle the "race" cams...

[perfworks]

What's the difference between Stage l, Stage II, and Stage III cams ?? Stage I is concidered to be your stock setup. We go up from there.

[perfworks]

But, you guys are testing a P5 that has a MP3 ecu! Will you be providing dynos from a P5 that is actually using a P5 ecu? (uhm) Yes the P5 that our customer has is with a MP3 ecu. We have a P5 ECU laying around that we will use since some questioned WHY we were dynoing the P5 with it.
I just dont like swaping the ECU's on the dyno because the short term memory is lost with out power to the unit.
That may not give us a good idea of how accurate we can be.

[perfworks]

How will the valves hold up to the stage three cams? We are working with a company that is producing the Titanium valve springs and retainers for our cars. They will be ready in about a month or so. That will help with the stage III cams for the Forced induction guys. The NA cams may still hold up fine in stage III depending on the lift we order and the RPM in which they are run.

[wrigmatt]

I always see new products coming posted but i NEVER see dyno sheets, what gives, everyone gets excited but never ever sees what kind of performance these mods give. In all honesty, FI is the way to go when done properly, and so far the essential speed kit is the only that i havent heard someone having a problem with, why because its done right and not rushed to the market. Start Posting dyno results and then ill get excited :)

[AlbinoMuntjac]

I always see new products coming posted but i NEVER see dyno sheets, what gives, everyone gets excited but never ever sees what kind of performance these mods give. In all honesty, FI is the way to go when done properly, and so far the essential speed kit is the only that i havent heard someone having a problem with, why because its done right and not rushed to the market. Start Posting dyno results and then ill get excited :)Did you read the post at all? Nick said that they will be dynoing the car this week. Hell, he's even going so far as to running the car as it is now (with an MP3 ECU) and swapping in a stock ECU just so we all will know what to expect. I guess you're trying to fault him for letting us know that he will be selling these products soon. Actually, Nick's been talking about getting cams done for a long time now. All the R&D is done and they are being manufatured.
Also, whenever you put a turbo kit on a car that wasn't originally equipped as such, there are going to be problems. Be it from the actual kit not being "done right" or the end user not installing correctly, it's going to happen. I honestly hope that you don't think the other guys with turbo kits out there for our cars just slap some parts together and hope like hell they work. Please romve yourself for Essential Speed's nuts and then continue to post here.

[hi-perf]

reason why i ask for lift/duration is will the fp-de (1.8L) can perform to its max with those cams. the 1.8 makes its power up higher so id imagine that a cam with different specs would maximize the potential of the 1.8L engine.

can you look into this for me

[TheJackyl]

What will the prices be for these? I'd love to get these...what other parts should I have before getting these though? I want my engine to be stable and to last....

[midnightracr]

[QUOTE=perfworks]Titanium valve springs and retainers for our cars. They will be ready in about a month or so. That will help with the stage III cams for the Forced induction guys.

Nick,
Are you saying that you are making Stage3 cams for Forced Induction or just Titanium valve springs for the F/I?

[AlbinoMuntjac]

What will the prices be for these? I'd love to get these...what other parts should I have before getting these though? I want my engine to be stable and to last....Read first, ask questions later:

Retail pricing is $550 but the GB will be around $490.

[Black Majik MSP]

I thought people said that the JDM Mazdaspeed cams wouldn't work on turbo cars, so how are these going to? Is this something that could be used on an MSP?

[perfworks]

reason why i ask for lift/duration is will the fp-de (1.8L) can perform to its max with those cams. the 1.8 makes its power up higher so id imagine that a cam with different specs would maximize the potential of the 1.8L engine.

can you look into this for meI am not completely sure but I believe that the 1.8L cams are a little different. BUT we should have no problem spec'ing them out. I just need a set of stockers to evaluate.

[perfworks]

[QUOTE=perfworks]Titanium valve springs and retainers for our cars. They will be ready in about a month or so. That will help with the stage III cams for the Forced induction guys.

Nick,
Are you saying that you are making Stage3 cams for Forced Induction or just Titanium valve springs for the F/I?There will be stage II and III cams for both FI and NA. The spring package will be geared mostly toward the FI guys because of the more radical lift found on the stage III cams for the FI cars. We are trying to avoid any valve float up top in the RPM.

[perfworks]

Read first, ask questions later:I appreciate the help.:)

[Installshield 2]

The old JDM cams that are hard to come by now (at least the exhuast cam) would work perfectly fine on a turbo car...They would provide a smoother transition of torque-on boost...meaning there would be less of a lunge at 3000rpm or so, and a MUCH stronger pull to redline...

Not sure where that rumor got started, but is is false...Ideally though a cam will complete a particular engine...Being that is fixed, it usually is recommended to get all other mods out of the way first...There are specs preferable to either FI or NA, and Nick and Andy are working on both it seems...These street cams are probably mild enough to go either way though, and give noticable gains to either application...

I don't know much about these though...I just got back...

[perfworks]

I thought people said that the JDM Mazdaspeed cams wouldn't work on turbo cars, so how are these going to? Is this something that could be used on an MSP?It will all depend on the duration of the JDM cams. One of the problems I have found with the stockers is the relatively off balanced lift characteristics between the two shafts.
Of course we have a really shitty exhaust setup so it really wont show a huge gain until the manifold and some restriction is taken out of the picture.
The cams we came up with compliment both setups very well. (FI and NA) We did this on purpose because some want good drivability but still want to help increase VE without doing a ton of head work and costly valve changes for a street car.

[sidpro5]

These are mild street cams guys. The idle will be about normal but the smoothness will be felt. They provide great drivability. The more radical cams are our stage III that we are working on. They will be for the guys who want to go all out on NA application with no forced induction.
These stage II cams are great upgrades for both NA and FI because of the complimented lift they provide to the stock setup.
The factory timing is pretty conservative on the P5. That is actually our test vehicle. With premium fuel you will be fine.
Just what I wanted to hear. Thanks, Nick!

[mp5smuggler]

cant wait to see how they dyno..... looking at corksports jdm cams and waiting and drooling over what i hope will be a nice gain with yours

[Black Majik MSP]

It will all depend on the duration of the JDM cams. One of the problems I have found with the stockers is the relatively off balanced lift characteristics between the two shafts.
Of course we have a really shitty exhaust setup so it really wont show a huge gain until the manifold and some restriction is taken out of the picture.
The cams we came up with compliment both setups very well. (FI and NA) We did this on purpose because some want good drivability but still want to help increase VE without doing a ton of head work and costly valve changes for a street car.
I already have a turbo-back, so I guess someone just needs to make an upgraded MSP exhaust mani already.

[bonesmp5]

This should be a nice Bump ^^^^ --> cams that compliment each other to give us umph!!!!! :)

[perfworks]

I already have a turbo-back, so I guess someone just needs to make an upgraded MSP exhaust mani already.We already have this and it should be ready soon.

[Black Majik MSP]

We already have this and it should be ready soon.
I guess I missed that...do you have any pics or an estimate on the price?

[SpicyMchaggis]

The J-spec cams are asswipe gains compared to a higher lift cam. Let me know when the stage III's come out. I'm curious to see if they are in the ballpark of the kind of lift I was looking to go with.

[hi-perf]

I am not completely sure but I believe that the 1.8L cams are a little different. BUT we should have no problem spec'ing them out. I just need a set of stockers to evaluate.
as far as fitting, the cams are identical but im sure they do have different lift/durations.

i will see about sending you my stockers

what time frame are we talkin about any time? or within the next immediate time period

[perfworks]

I guess I missed that...do you have any pics or an estimate on the price?Price is around $550 for the set retail. We will do a GB in weeks.

[perfworks]

as far as fitting, the cams are identical but im sure they do have different lift/durations.

i will see about sending you my stockers

what time frame are we talkin about any time? or within the next immediate time periodI need four weeks to get them back to you.

[perfworks]

OK I have some bad news.

We couldnt dyno the car today.
The shims we needed to finish the install still didnt come in. So we are going to have to do this next week. Sorry guys I will keep everyone informed on what day we are going to the dyno next week.

[BlueMP5Dave]

Good stuff Perf can't wait to see further developments, Thanks for all your hard work on this platform.

[bonesmp5]

i read most of the post ---
Quetsion:--- can the stageII and stageIII cams work with the higher compression pistons ???????? i'm not to smart about all this put i assume that they will -- with the right timings and stuff -- hehehe

[AlbinoMuntjac]

Price is around $550 for the set retail. We will do a GB in weeks.I think he was referring to the turbo manifold, not the cams.

as far as fitting, the cams are identical but im sure they do have different lift/durations.

i will see about sending you my stockers

what time frame are we talkin about any time? or within the next immediate time period What about finding a cheapo set from a junker in a wrecking yard??

[twilightprotege]

nick, the shims you needed didnt come in? i assume that means you're just doing regrinds of the stock cam (making the base circle smaller)???

[perfworks]

nick, the shims you needed didnt come in? i assume that means you're just doing regrinds of the stock cam (making the base circle smaller)???NO
The first few sets of cams we have had made were hardwelded and reground.
They are for our R&D purposes.

[twilightprotege]

cool, just making sure mate because a lot of people are relying on you here, and not many people know the ins and outs of cams

how many specs have you had made up for R&D, and/or what program have you used to develop cam specs?

[mp5zoomer]

bump cant wait for these to be for sale

[Gen1GT]

This sounds like bullshit to me. NO respectable cam manufacturer hides thier cam specs. Web cams, Comp cams, Toda, hell, even Corksport will tell you what their cam specs are. This isn't rocket science, so there's nothing these guys can do with a cam that has to be so 'secret.'

If they don't tell you the specs of the cams, how are you supposed to tune it? How do you know if stock springs are good? How do you know what overlap is going to be? bullshit.

I don't even care if you make cams for the BP, I wouldn't buy some MYSTERY cams for my car. If they spent 'so much time/money with R&D", why don't they already know how much hp they make? If they were any good, they wouldn't even have told you about them until they've already dynoed them. Doesn't matter, the FS is a piece of junk engine, not designed to rev high, so what the hell are 'stage II'(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) cams going to do anyways? :bs:

[iluvmacs]

If cam specs are released, they need to offer them at a price better than what it would cost to get a custom cam ground from someone else. Otherwise they lose the investment they made in R&D.

Give them a chance to get some numbers first.

[YP5 Toronto]

This sounds like bullshit to me. NO respectable cam manufacturer hides thier cam specs. Web cams, Comp cams, Toda, hell, even Corksport will tell you what their cam specs are. This isn't rocket science, so there's nothing these guys can do with a cam that has to be so 'secret.'

If they don't tell you the specs of the cams, how are you supposed to tune it? How do you know if stock springs are good? How do you know what overlap is going to be? bullshit.

I don't even care if you make cams for the BP, I wouldn't buy some MYSTERY cams for my car. If they spent 'so much time/money with R&D", why don't they already know how much hp they make? If they were any good, they wouldn't even have told you about them until they've already dynoed them. Doesn't matter, the FS is a piece of junk engine, not designed to rev high, so what the hell are 'stage II'(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) cams going to do anyways? :bs:
You don't know who the f**k perfworks is....and YOU are the LAST person to be giving advice on what is BS. Perfworks is a very honest and reputable person and I would spend my money on him any day.

What this...is your 8th post on this board and you are already causing shit on this board.

There is a reason Perworks has his own business...and why you wash cars for a living. I would also KEEP those specs to myself...and work to achieve a reasonable profit and recoup my investment...

So before you start calling BS on people/products....have a seat....read up and try to respect others (something you couldn't do on TOProtege.com)

Perf....sorry for jacking this thread.... and as I said earlier.... can't wait for the results and then the FI Cams.

[Installshield 2]

You don't know who the f**k perfworks is....and YOU are the LAST person to be giving advice on what is BS. Perfworks is a very honest and reputable person and I would spend my money on him any day.

What this...is your 8th post on this board and you are already causing shit on this board.

There is a reason Perworks has his own business...and why you wash cars for a living. I would also KEEP those specs to myself...and work to achieve a reasonable profit and recoup my investment...

So before you start calling BS on people/products....have a seat....read up and try to respect others (something you couldn't do on TOProtege.com)

Perf....sorry for jacking this thread.... and as I said earlier.... can't wait for the results and then the FI Cams.hahaha...nice post...Don't worry about him too much man, he was in another thread giving BS'ing some dudes from his fortress of knowledge on the FS...He is a backflipper...

Sorry too Nick...Thanks for all the hard work...I want some cams, and an EMS pnp...I need to call you very soon...

[Gen1GT]

Haha, Jason, you frikkin nerd. You think mentioning my job is going to bother me? Let me guess, you're going to call me fat next right? (loser)

Why am I the last person to be giving advice on what's bullshit? You can call me an asshole all you want, but you know I know my stuff. I'm sorry, but EVERY reputable cam manufacturer gives cam specs. How do you think any decent engine builder puts together a good combination. It's not like buying X-brand generic pod filter. An entire engine can be designed around a cam, and if you don't have that information, it's useless. Custom header and intakes, valvetrain, compression ratio etc etc are all affected by cam selection.

I don't care who it is, or what he does, but I'll stand my the fact that this cam will be useless for anyone who REALLY knows what he's doing. It'll just be a drop-in cam for people who have no clue how any of that works, and just hope it gives them power.....along with broken valves, lean induced detonation, poor emissions, broken retainers...blah blah blah...

If he releases cam specs...I'll apologize...

and about the FS...Jason knows first hand how weak it is. Why do you think he has all those new parts, with decompression involved. You could easily run 15psi on a 10:1 BP.

[YP5 Toronto]

Josh...please don't continue on this thread...it is taking away from Perworks thread... and one thing EVERYONE DOES KNOW WHY I HAVE NEW INTERNALS....I have a complete thread on it.

[Gen1GT]

Jason, I AM going to continue on with this thread, just because you told me not to. I'm sure you'll find a way to have me kicked off, or have my posts deleted, but you have no power over me right here, right now.

As far as his cams go, if he's on the up and up, he'll have no problem defending himself, and explaining WHY he's not giving the specs, and HOW he expects someone to use those cams without that knowledge....honestly, cause I wanna know.

[akhilleus]

I think the reason that he isnt releasing his cam specs is because he doesnt want someone to go out and make them.... once they have been released and dyno'd i am sure the specs will be made known. they also have already been made to work together on an FS head...saving others of having to do the work themselves. Cams can be tricky sometimes so in a way u are also purchasing the RD that has gone into it. I trust Nick totally. he is very professional and intelligent. I am sure these cams will be very nice... now i dont know about these "stages" maybe there is a 5-10deg difference and a hundredth of an inch difference between them...who knows. remember too that when a company like comp or crower release specs its after the cam has been released for sale... they obviously keep the RD secret too.

[AlbinoMuntjac]

This sounds like bullshit to me. NO respectable cam manufacturer hides thier cam specs. Web cams, Comp cams, Toda, hell, even Corksport will tell you what their cam specs are. This isn't rocket science, so there's nothing these guys can do with a cam that has to be so 'secret.'

If they don't tell you the specs of the cams, how are you supposed to tune it? How do you know if stock springs are good? How do you know what overlap is going to be? bullshit.

I don't even care if you make cams for the BP, I wouldn't buy some MYSTERY cams for my car. If they spent 'so much time/money with R&D", why don't they already know how much hp they make? If they were any good, they wouldn't even have told you about them until they've already dynoed them. Doesn't matter, the FS is a piece of junk engine, not designed to rev high, so what the hell are 'stage II'(whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) cams going to do anyways? :bs:Apparently you've never gotten too deeply into Mustangs and Camaros. There are plenty of small time manufacturers of performance parts for the 5.0 and all the performance incarnations of the 350 that don't release specific specs on their parts. You know they do all the R&D work, provide plenty of dyno and realworld proof of performance, and back it up woth above and beyond customer service. It keeps them in business doing so. What's to keep someone like Comp Cams, Lunati, Edelbrock, etc. from trolling enthusiast boards looking for new markets to get into and *gasp* finding exact specs for a proven part that the market has been wanting, waiting for and they decide to take those specs and make their own parts?? I'm sure Comp, Lunati, Edelbrock can make those parts a whole hell of a lot cheaper than Nick. He's just protecting his investment. Quit bitching and moaning. It's not going to happen.

[bonesmp5]

sorry to bump my own post -- but does anyone know -- (silly)




i read most of the post ---
Quetsion:--- can the stageII and stageIII cams work with the higher compression pistons ???????? i'm not to smart about all this put i assume that they will -- with the right timings and stuff -- hehehe

[SpicyMchaggis]

Nick and Andy own you. So just chill out for a bit and let them do their job. It's these guys that keep the FS-DE Tuners happy and sane. It's not a mystery, its just paitence and R&D..I was about to have cams custom ground for my application. I'm going to wait it out until the STIII are available and see about running on my stock pistons..Time will tell, mean time.. (cheers)

[twilightprotege]

i'd still like to know (for those who are going to buy these cams) if head flow was tested and what cam program was used to come up with the specs

nick, i'm just trying to give everyone the full picture, because a lot of people see it as a black art.

[flat_black]

Hmm... Cams and gears'll probably be my next modification after getting my replacement secondary cat/foreward pipe on car. Hopefully that'll be here soon, then some cams, gears, then an EMS. =) Gonna have to save some cash up for that, and get the P5 at least reasonably fast. ;)

[Gen1GT]

sorry to bump my own post -- but does anyone know -- (silly)
Bones, when you get larger cams with more duration(especially with duration), WANT more compression. Cams are measured by how long, in Crankshaft degrees(360 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Cams spin at half the speed of the crankshaft too) the valve is open. Different manufacturers measure at different valve lifts too. So unless they specify at what lift the duration was measured, it's useless information. Normally cams are either measured at .050" lift, or from seat to seat(the moment the valve lifts, to the moment the valve closes). Your stock cams are probably in the 232 region, seat to seat life(or maybe 200-205 @ .050").

When you get cams with more duration(we'll talk intake side for now), say 252 degrees seat to seat, the intake cam is open for more time. On my car, the intake camshaft opens when the piston is 5 degrees BTDC(which means it's 5 degrees of crank rotation, Before the piston is at Top Dead Centre{the very top of its stroke}). Then, the piston travels down, sucking air into the engine(at 14.5psi to be exact), then it starts to move back up the cylinder WHILE THE INTAKE VALVE IS STILL OPEN. It sounds counter-productive, since you would think it's pushing air back out the cylinder. But air has mass, and mass has interia. Air wants to keep filling the cylinder even after the piston starts moving back up. In my case, the intake valve is fully closed at 48 degrees ABDC(After Bottom Dead Centre). Now with that longer duration 252 degree cam, for simplicities sake, my valve would now open at 15 degrees BTDC, and close at 58 degrees ABDC. Now, since this valve is open longer especially ABDC, the cylinder has less time to build compression, since it now only has 122 degrees of crank rotation to build pressure, instead of the 132 it had before. 252 duration cams are far from wild, but if you had a 270 or 280 degree cam, you can see that the cam will have a lot less time to build compression. THAT is why you want higher compression.

In my case, I'm going to use a 272 duration intake cam, and I'm aiming for 12:1 compression. Running 12:1 compression on my car has a similar effect to running about 4psi of boost. But with so much cam duration, and especially at low rpm, dynamic compression ratio won't be that high.

I hope this answers your question, and helps your understanding of cams a bit. There's a lot more too them than that, so ask if you have any more questions.

[Gen1GT]

Hmm... Cams and gears'll probably be my next modification after getting my replacement secondary cat/foreward pipe on car. Hopefully that'll be here soon, then some cams, gears, then an EMS. =) Gonna have to save some cash up for that, and get the P5 at least reasonably fast. ;)
Don't forget to budge either injectors, AFPR or fuel computer into the cam/cam gear combo. More air needs more fuel(burnout)

[iluvmacs]

I think his question had to do with valve clearance. Higher comp pistons extend further into the cylinder head combustion chamber, and with valves open either longer or extending further, there's a greater chance of interference.

You really need to know the clearances to guess, unless you can take an engine apart and take a look.

[Installshield 2]

Bones, when you get larger cams with more duration(especially with duration), WANT more compression. Cams are measured by how long, in Crankshaft degrees(360 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Cams spin at half the speed of the crankshaft too) the valve is open. Different manufacturers measure at different valve lifts too. So unless they specify at what lift the duration was measured, it's useless information. Normally cams are either measured at .050" lift, or from seat to seat(the moment the valve lifts, to the moment the valve closes). Your stock cams are probably in the 232 region, seat to seat life(or maybe 200-205 @ .050").

When you get cams with more duration(we'll talk intake side for now), say 252 degrees seat to seat, the intake cam is open for more time. On my car, the intake camshaft opens when the piston is 5 degrees BTDC(which means it's 5 degrees of crank rotation, Before the piston is at Top Dead Centre{the very top of its stroke}). Then, the piston travels down, sucking air into the engine(at 14.5psi to be exact), then it starts to move back up the cylinder WHILE THE INTAKE VALVE IS STILL OPEN. It sounds counter-productive, since you would think it's pushing air back out the cylinder. But air has mass, and mass has interia. Air wants to keep filling the cylinder even after the piston starts moving back up. In my case, the intake valve is fully closed at 48 degrees ABDC(After Bottom Dead Centre). Now with that longer duration 252 degree cam, for simplicities sake, my valve would now open at 15 degrees BTDC, and close at 58 degrees ABDC. Now, since this valve is open longer especially ABDC, the cylinder has less time to build compression, since it now only has 122 degrees of crank rotation to build pressure, instead of the 132 it had before. 252 duration cams are far from wild, but if you had a 270 or 280 degree cam, you can see that the cam will have a lot less time to build compression. THAT is why you want higher compression.

In my case, I'm going to use a 272 duration intake cam, and I'm aiming for 12:1 compression. Running 12:1 compression on my car has a similar effect to running about 4psi of boost. But with so much cam duration, and especially at low rpm, dynamic compression ratio won't be that high.

I hope this answers your question, and helps your understanding of cams a bit. There's a lot more too them than that, so ask if you have any more questions.
Good point...But BP's and FS's have notoriously low rod ratio's, in which they prefer longer duration do to the extremely short dwell time of the pistons. Theorectically you may be bleeding off some compression, but the engine will be breathing significantly better...

It is true that with larger duration increases you also want some compression increases...but in just a bolt on street spec cam installation, you will still see decent gains without any modifications to the static compression ratio...

[2k2silvermp5]

Nick and Andy own you. So just chill out for a bit and let them do their job. It's these guys that keep the FS-DE Tuners happy and sane. It's not a mystery, its just paitence and R&D..I was about to have cams custom ground for my application. I'm going to wait it out until the STIII are available and see about running on my stock pistons..Time will tell, mean time.. (cheers)
Spicy if I'm correct the stage 3 cams may or may not work with stock compression but will not work with your stock valve train, like valves, valve springs, lifters and lifter shims.

[Subghetto]

Will there be future cam gears to run with these cams or are they not needed???

[Gen1GT]

You'll need cam gears for fine tuning of cam timing. Every engine is different, and as little as .5 degrees can make a difference in where power is. With larger cams, you may even have to advance cam timing to make usable power. If you've opened up your intake system(head work, custom or ported TB and Manifold, Intake), you can run higher, and make more power. The key to making NA power, is to make as much power as possible, as high as possible in the rev range. Face it, you're not going to be pulling stumps with a 1.8 or 2.0, so the higher you wind it, the more power you can make. That's why FI cars can make so much power with such small engines.

[Gen1GT]

Subghetto, that little animation of yours is awesome.

[Kooldino]

Gen1 - if he doesn't wanna release his specs...or he wants to wait, let it be. It's his call. If people don't like it, they don't have to buy his product.

[2k2silvermp5]

Will there be future cam gears to run with these cams or are they not needed???
I've talked with Andy and Nick when I'm at the shop about gears. I believe It will be in the future, could be close or far in the future.

[Subghetto]

Subghetto, that little animation of yours is awesome.
Thanks (thumb)

[SpicyMchaggis]

Nick and Andy, get me to 150+whp. Period.

[Gen1GT]

Nick and Andy, get me to 150+whp. Period.
Better write them a blank cheque. (thumb)

Honestly, if you want 150whp, you might just want to buy an FS-ZE. It'll be cheaper, and you'll have a better start for tuning. The ZE would probably put 140 to the ground. Add some bolt-ons, and you should be over 150 easily.

[twilightprotege]

^ the fs-ze is a waste of money. basically, it gets the majority of it's power purely from engine management, not the engine parts. hell my aussie engine is almost a ze and still is only rated to 98kw at the engine (131.4hp).

[mp5smuggler]

upsman has a transplant in his protege and he turned 141 tothe wheel on the dyno.... he does have the awr header on it though

[Installshield 2]

Its cheaper to just build a similar FS than to get the full FS-ZE...You can get the ZE pistons for next to nothing from Corksport, and with Nick's cams plus standalone...you will have paid 2 grand less...Screw the intake manifold...(seeing that in either app you will definately need the standalone to get the best gains)

[twilightprotege]

exactly.

the intake manifold is a waste. much better to port the existing one

[SpicyMchaggis]

the ZE's a joke. High lift cams, springs, and higher compression pistons all on a EMS system will easily net me 150whp..easily.

[NYCZMP3]

Ay Whut Up Wit Tha Turbo Cams!!!

[Subghetto]

Since we are off-topic here anyone have the essential speed intake manifold?

[twilightprotege]

i doubt the intake man will ever get made. will cost too much. just look at how many people have ported the stock one.

[bonesmp5]

yes -- that is basically what i wanted to know -- is there clearance with the higher pistons with the right timing -- and is that timing useable for the street




I think his question had to do with valve clearance. Higher comp pistons extend further into the cylinder head combustion chamber, and with valves open either longer or extending further, there's a greater chance of interference.

You really need to know the clearances to guess, unless you can take an engine apart and take a look.

[twilightprotege]

i doubt even with 14.0:1 pistons you'll have clearance issues, just as long as lift is kept to round 0.350"

[Gen1GT]

the ZE's a joke. High lift cams, springs, and higher compression pistons all on a EMS system will easily net me 150whp..easily.
No chance. With 10:1 pistons, and cams, with aftermarket ECU, I'll say 125-130whp MAX. It takes so much more than that man.

[Gen1GT]

i doubt the intake man will ever get made. will cost too much. just look at how many people have ported the stock one.
Essential Speed already makes it. If not, they'll do custom for like only $600 Canadian.

[twilightprotege]

if he added full exhaust then it is possible.

$600cnd? money much better spent on just porting the existing IM to the limits. afterall, that's what the race guys do

[Installshield 2]

No chance. With 10:1 pistons, and cams, with aftermarket ECU, I'll say 125-130whp MAX. It takes so much more than that man.
Dude...Some dudes are getting 125whp with a header and an intake cam...Some chick did it over a year ago, with just an ZE intake cam, and modified Probe SE Bosal header...if the other board didn't suck ass anymore I would find the dyno sheet...It may be on here somewhere though...

Your views on the FS seem to be a bit dated...The FS is a dinosaur, but the number one reason it sucks so bad in stock form is not the physical restraints of the engine specs (which when the 2.0L proteges became more popular, was the original thought), but the ECU...With a full standalone and 10.1:1 compression, you will be well over 125whp...you could get over 125whp with the standalone itself.

[akhilleus]

well hold on.. lets not exagerate that much. The AEM didnt put down close to 125whp on a stock p5. Ultimately its not about any single modification but the combination of carefully chosen parts that each serve specific purposes. W/o management i believe u can see 125whp easily with just a mild i/h/e and some light tuning,cams, tranny work. with a more developed NA u could see 140-150 w/o management also. Anymore than that ...especially anything with HC pistons would require either standalone, parallel or piggyback ems. sry about the threadjack ...back to the cams... so nick when are they being installed on 2k2's protege and the aem protege?

[SpicyMchaggis]

Hey Gen1gt..i'm already at 155 crank w/o headers, piggyback or cams...116whp/125lbft.

[mp3moose]

Man, I need to get dynoed.

[2k2silvermp5]

well hold on.. lets not exagerate that much. The AEM didnt put down close to 125whp on a stock p5. Ultimately its not about any single modification but the combination of carefully chosen parts that each serve specific purposes. W/o management i believe u can see 125whp easily with just a mild i/h/e and some light tuning,cams, tranny work. with a more developed NA u could see 140-150 w/o management also. Anymore than that ...especially anything with HC pistons would require either standalone, parallel or piggyback ems. sry about the threadjack ...back to the cams... so nick when are they being installed on 2k2's protege and the aem protege?
The cams are already in the car. Hopefully the car will be ready to dyno soon enough.

[Gen1GT]

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but building NA is sobering. The first 20hp is a piece of cake. The next 20 hp will take twice as much money as the first 20hp, and will require patience and lots of trial and error and tuning. The next 20hp will require 4 times the money the first 20hp cost, and will encounter the occasional power LOSS, countless hours on the dyno, aftermarket engine management tuning, many custom parts etc.

I totally believe people are getting 125whp from intake cam and header. After that, is where it gets hard. With higher compression, you might get 130whp, but nothing near the 150 you might think. I'm getting 117whp, and my only real mod is my exhaust(BP POWER! lol..sorry, had to throw that in). I should be getting 125 just after my custom header. But after that, things are going to get hard. Real hard.

And 116whp is NOT 155 flywheel hp. That's a 34% drivetrain loss. Does that mean I'm getting 157 from just exhaust, advanced timing and my RX7 AFM? 30hp from 3 mods..not bad. Honestly, 116 is closer to 136hp. I know it might only be 6 more than it's rated stock, but Mazda tends to pump up the figures a bit(in the last few years anyway. Most BPs made a little more than advertised)

I'm excited that some of the Protege guys want to build some NA power though, since everyone runs for the boost when they get a Pro. I'm not sure any of you will threaten my future title of the fastest NA Protege in North America though...3rd gens are sumpin heavy...


(dance)

[Gen1GT]

The cams are already in the car. Hopefully the car will be ready to dyno soon enough.
Can't wait to see the results. Especially after your header too.....

[Installshield 2]

well hold on.. lets not exagerate that much. The AEM didnt put down close to 125whp on a stock p5. Ultimately its not about any single modification but the combination of carefully chosen parts that each serve specific purposes. W/o management i believe u can see 125whp easily with just a mild i/h/e and some light tuning,cams, tranny work. with a more developed NA u could see 140-150 w/o management also. Anymore than that ...especially anything with HC pistons would require either standalone, parallel or piggyback ems. sry about the threadjack ...back to the cams... so nick when are they being installed on 2k2's protege and the aem protege?
Fair enough...I have yet to see the actual sheet on the gains...But I have seen gains of 20+whp on tuning alone on a stock FWD...That was more of an estimate, and I din't know they had even put it on a stock P5 yet...They did test it on a protege at one point, I forget the thread, and it was easily stronger than a normally modded one ( I/H/E possibly, can't remember exactly though)...

[SpicyMchaggis]

By the way hoss, my crank HP number comes from Kooldino's PDA dyno..i've had my car pulled 3 times and the 116/125 are my real numbers..so you might want chill out. I'm fully aware what it takes to get to 150whp. And it can be done for less money than you think. My biggest gains came from my timing and larger and re-surfaced throttle body. I haven't even installed my header yet.

[akhilleus]

Actually Installshield u can do a search and i think the aem protege dyno graph should be viewable. The whole issue with the aem though wasnt peak power but the improvement of the hp, torque under the curve and the smoothness. gen1gt is right in a way about NA buildups... The first mods i did were fairly straightforward install wise and were relatively cheap. However as i started getting into cams they cost went up. After the cams are done and i throw a 421 header on i will be basically out of affordable options. Maybe IM porting if i can afford to have the car down or can find an extra IM for cheap but after that i will focus on asthetics... an area where i have alot of work to do. and if u think that 15.9@86 is the fastest NA protege then u will be sobered when i make some runs this summer :D ... or when others do. I am really looking forward to 2k2's wagner cams dyno... i want to see the gain they give. ... oh and just a tip that is off topic a bit... i highly recommend having any coolant flush mixed @ 75% water and 25% glycol plus 1/2 bottle water wetter. multiple reasons.. i saw an improvement(throttle response...possible hp/tq increase) and also when u cool the engine u maintain your timing so that it doesnt retard from the knock sensor... also u chill the heat soak prone protege a bit and increase the density of the intake charge(only applicable on short ram and CAI)... ok sorry about going on a tangent.. back to the cams.

[mp5jeff]

any n/a protege even break into the 14's yet in the 1/4 mile?(with or without nitrous)

[Installshield 2]

Actually Installshield u can do a search and i think the aem protege dyno graph should be viewable. The whole issue with the aem though wasnt peak power but the improvement of the hp, torque under the curve and the smoothness. gen1gt is right in a way about NA buildups... The first mods i did were fairly straightforward install wise and were relatively cheap. However as i started getting into cams they cost went up. After the cams are done and i throw a 421 header on i will be basically out of affordable options. Maybe IM porting if i can afford to have the car down or can find an extra IM for cheap but after that i will focus on asthetics... an area where i have alot of work to do. and if u think that 15.9@86 is the fastest NA protege then u will be sobered when i make some runs this summer :D ... or when others do. I am really looking forward to 2k2's wagner cams dyno... i want to see the gain they give. ... oh and just a tip that is off topic a bit... i highly recommend having any coolant flush mixed @ 75% water and 25% glycol plus 1/2 bottle water wetter. multiple reasons.. i saw an improvement(throttle response...possible hp/tq increase) and also when u cool the engine u maintain your timing so that it doesnt retard from the knock sensor... also u chill the heat soak prone protege a bit and increase the density of the intake charge(only applicable on short ram and CAI)... ok sorry about going on a tangent.. back to the cams.
ok...I found the dyno...It netted like 11whp or so...But according to nick that was just a basic road tune...there could be more with some more aggressive maps..


I have an FS from an MP3 sitting in my garage right now awaiting some parts...To start I am going to get the AEM and the MSP 10.5:1 pistons in this summer...and maybe pop it in the P5 for a few months just to get it tuned and see where I am...But after that it will come back out and get more work done...

[Dexter]

MSP 10.5:1 pistons?

[akhilleus]

the 10.7 right....the aem would be absolutly necessary with the msp 10.7 pistons and it would show impressive gains... probably 30whp+ easily. i cant wait to see how your project goes.... i love how the NA scene is blowing up :D

[twilightprotege]

i cant wait to show off my dyno results.......i'm sure plenty of people will be very impressed :D

a new intake cam for me should yield no more peak hp, but much much more power below redline

and then there is my secret mod ;)

june 12 is the dyno day. let the games begin :D :D :D

[Gen1GT]

Guys, I'd LOVE for all of you to end up making the power you think you are/will, but it's just not going to happen. Especially on your stock OBD II, which isn't going to let you do anything to get more than 130whp. Even WITH a fuel computer. 10.7:1 pistons WILL NOT give you 30hp. What's stock compression? 9:1? A 9:1 to 10.7:1 gain isn't only going to get you a 1.5% increase in power. I'm going to 12:1, and that's only going to get me 4.5%. But it will alllow me to use 272 duration cams. Ok, here's what it takes to make big NA power(and this is with the BP, which is easier to tune, and does NOT include any labour, tuning or dyno time. This is for 200 crank hp)

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/5070/budget.htm

The fastest all motor Protege anyone knows about, is 15.8. Pretty weak I know, but no-one, absolutely no-one builds NA Proteges. Everyone turbos. And if you guys think you can make a Gen3 break the 15s, all the power to ya. My 15.9 was done on a bad clutch, 185/60/14s, and bad track conditions(first track day of the year). I'd be less than 15.8 already, but my tranny is broken. Just know that I'll be in the 14s by the end of the summer. Feel free to try and keep up, since competition breeds success. Unless you dump huge amounts of money into your car in a short period of time, I can't see anyone being faster. There are 3 of us 1st Gen guys running in the 15s, and we're all starting with heavy mods.

[Installshield 2]

the 10.7 right....the aem would be absolutly necessary with the msp 10.7 pistons and it would show impressive gains... probably 30whp+ easily. i cant wait to see how your project goes.... i love how the NA scene is blowing up :D
Yeah I guess they are 10.7:1...I have not measured them compared to stock...And one of the dudes at Corksport claimed they are 10.5:1, and not 10.7:1...either way there is not much difference between them and the stock ZE pistons...And this is just a test...I am working on some internals, and much higher compression for the future...(if there is any way to keep north of 12:1 streetable I'll try it, but I don't think it will be feasible...realistically I will end up with low to mid 12:1 range).

[akhilleus]

12:1 damn thats unheard of on a protege :D good luck.... thats static right?

[Installshield 2]

12:1 damn thats unheard of on a protege :D good luck.... thats static right?unheard of in what regards? Sunbelt's engines were upwards of 13.5:1 weren't they?...

The lower the rod ratio, the higher the compression you can run when coupled with longer duration cams...The cam duration will "bleed off" some compression, so to get similar numbers to other engines with the same compression...you run a little higher compression...

Static opposed to what? Effective? That confused me dude...its NA, so yeah that will be measured as Static compression...

[twilightprotege]

gen1 - i have obd-I (australian stock) hehehehehe

i have 9.7:1 pistons stock

i have 226deg duration @ 0.050" and 0.342" valve lift

and the 111.3whp dyno is before any exhaust work

[MP3skaterNC]

The fastest all motor Protege anyone knows about, is 15.8. Pretty weak I know, but no-one, absolutely no-one builds NA Proteges. Everyone turbos. And if you guys think you can make a Gen3 break the 15s, all the power to ya. My 15.9 was done on a bad clutch, 185/60/14s, and bad track conditions(first track day of the year). I'd be less than 15.8 already, but my tranny is broken. Just know that I'll be in the 14s by the end of the summer. Feel free to try and keep up, since competition breeds success. Unless you dump huge amounts of money into your car in a short period of time, I can't see anyone being faster. There are 3 of us 1st Gen guys running in the 15s, and we're all starting with heavy mods.
theres an mp3 running 15.6.

also the bp is a great engine but it also has a larger aftermarket (think miata). The fs has some potential, and the obd II can be overcame with a piggy back that takes over the spark and fuel tuning of the car. just give the market some time and im sure you will see a streetable n/a protege in the 14's.

[Salmon_Rob]

ah but jamie, the miata bp is mounted differently so a lot of the bolt ons dont work, but we do have internals. i run 15.8s on a non existent clutch...im hoping for mid/low 15s when i get a new clutch, and im doing some engine work this summer. the 3rd gen is a great car, and has the same potential as a 1st gen if its done right, but n/a is expensive, and doesnt yeild the same gains as boost for your money. im going n/a merely because its easier to locate parts

[Installshield 2]

You two BP dudes are some of the first I have heard of to stay NA...Neither the FS nor the BP are excellent in terms of strictly NA...The BP has an even lower rod ratio than the FS from what I remeber, (but less stroke...blah blah blah)...

A lot of comments are stirring around abou this NA stuff...But like Jamie said, not much NA work has even started to be done yet...It has been within the last 6 months that adequate ECU upgrades have even been and option....Give it a year...We will probably learn more about the FS's potential (both NA and FI) in this upcoming year than whats been known about it for over a decade...

[Installshield 2]

The fastest all motor Protege anyone knows about, is 15.8. Pretty weak I know, but no-one, absolutely no-one builds NA Proteges. Everyone turbos. And if you guys think you can make a Gen3 break the 15s, all the power to ya. My 15.9 was done on a bad clutch, 185/60/14s, and bad track conditions(first track day of the year). I'd be less than 15.8 already, but my tranny is broken. Just know that I'll be in the 14s by the end of the summer. Feel free to try and keep up, since competition breeds success. Unless you dump huge amounts of money into your car in a short period of time, I can't see anyone being faster. There are 3 of us 1st Gen guys running in the 15s, and we're all starting with heavy mods.
Excluding the tour cars I am assuming...But plenty of NA Probe SE's are quicker than a 15.8...and they are heavier than most + weaker to start with than all 2.0L proteges...

[Gen1GT]

unheard of in what regards? Sunbelt's engines were upwards of 13.5:1 weren't they?...

The lower the rod ratio, the higher the compression you can run when coupled with longer duration cams...The cam duration will "bleed off" some compression, so to get similar numbers to other engines with the same compression...you run a little higher compression...

Static opposed to what? Effective? That confused me dude...its NA, so yeah that will be measured as Static compression...Static, as opposed to dynamic compression ratio. Dynamic compression ratio is figuring out compression AFTER the intake valve closes. Longer duration cams lower dynamic compression ratio, which require the need for more static compression and higher volumetric effeciency.

[Installshield 2]

ok I see what you mean...Didn't remember that aspect...You don't hear of that used much anymore, I was always told in school that it is more of a "theoretical" number...in which you do tons of measurements on efficiency and hours of physics for the fluid dynamics and viscous forces associated with intake induction and try to come up with the best static CR for you app...and that best static number is thrown into a formula resulting in "Dynamic", which is slightly adjusted and compensates for that "bleeding" thing we talked about...

I heard of that definition differently though dude...You measure static compression as of a sealed chamber...not with the intake or exhuast valves open...The dynamic aspect only implies an "adjusted" number that illustrates how much compression is being bled off by the longer duration specs...

[Gen1GT]

Ya, it's hard to figure out EXACT dynamic compression, but doing math, you can figure out how high up the cylinder the piston is when the intake valve closes.

[Salmon_Rob]

You two BP dudes are some of the first I have heard of to stay NA...Neither the FS nor the BP are excellent in terms of strictly NA...The BP has an even lower rod ratio than the FS from what I remeber, (but less stroke...blah blah blah)...

A lot of comments are stirring around abou this NA stuff...But like Jamie said, not much NA work has even started to be done yet...It has been within the last 6 months that adequate ECU upgrades have even been and option....Give it a year...We will probably learn more about the FS's potential (both NA and FI) in this upcoming year than whats been known about it for over a decade...yeah, but the bp is a lot stronger, and can handle more power. it also responds much better to power mods than the fs

[MP3skaterNC]

i think thats mostly from the obd1 not from the motor itself.

[akhilleus]

um no offense 1stgen but your numbers..both dyno and track arent impressive. 2k2 has better dyno #'s and he hasnt even installed cams..when i said static compression i meant when the valves are closed. But honestly..lets be realistic... no one has even dynod an FS with a full series of bolt ons yet... twilight is the closest. No one has actually shown gains with HC pistons(although they havent been applied to a proper ems yet.) alot of this talk is theoretical and unproven but possible. The Bp might be better boosted but i would think considering the reduced displacement and older design that it would not be as good NA. higher displacement is better NA no doubt. and 15.9 isnt that great... Dis has a dx 2.0L with very light mods that runs less than mid 16's. I honestly think with my current setup that i could run at least a 15.9@86. so this Bp talk is kinda dated. the FS is a very reliable and effective engine... damn we need more probe people here :D

[Installshield 2]

yeah, but the bp is a lot stronger, and can handle more power. it also responds much better to power mods than the fs
I think you were claimed as the fastest NA protege ever or something...and hopefully you would realize that the BP is far from spectacular in NA form...as is the FS...The BP is a heavy over engineered machine capable of holding 400+bhp on the stock internals when boosted...The BP is no "stronger" in NA form...the BP can hold more boost, and therefore power...But again its rod ratios and other specs put a similar amount of limitation on it in strictly NA form...

This whole conversation is strange...its like talking to an Eclipse owner, praising the 4G63 as an NA engine...F20's are silly NA engines...BP and 4G63's are not...they are physical jugernauts...

[Salmon_Rob]

lol my bp has a blown head gasket, no clutch, a bad valve cover gasket, my cams are smooth and my valves float. if i am the fastest n/a first gen ever, imagine if my engine didnt have 200k ;)

[Salmon_Rob]

and jamie can attest to the lack of clutch lol

[twilightprotege]

akh - dyno wont be too far away :D

back to topic - perf, did you flow the stock head before coming up with cam specs, and/or what program did you use to develop the cam specs?

[Gen1GT]

um no offense 1stgen but your numbers..both dyno and track arent impressive. Admittedly, they're not. 117whp and 15.9 are average at best, but it's still better than most 3rd gen guys are getting with a larger engine. Please remember that my only real mod is my custom 2.5" exhuast, and I've only been modding my car for 3 months. Other than that, it's just the RX7 Air Flow Meter and my advanced ignition timing. Considering that most FS guys are baselining from 100-105, I think that's not too bad.

I measured the exhaust manifold collector outlet, and it's only 1 7/8". When I get my custom header(1 3/4" primaries, 36" long into a 3" collector, 10" long, into my 2.5" exhaust), that's going to open it RIGHT up. I'm not fooling around when it comes to this build, and I'm going to be running an 8500rpm engine, something the FS is not capable of. My fuel cut-off is already 7400(which I run to on a regular basis)

I also have a spare engine to work on, while I'm still able to drive my car. The list of future mods to that shortblock is going to be extensive.

Oh, and you think the BP is dated? The F-Series engines have been around since 1970!!! B-Series, 1988. Which one is dated?

Install...you wanna talk about rod ratios? Both the FS and BP have 83mm bores, but compare the BPs 85mm stroke to the FSs 92! At least we're ALMOST square.....(thumb)

[stdntDrvr]

i'm still faster.

[Replica]

I'm glad the 1st gen guys are so proud of running 15.9's...hahahaha.

[Gen1GT]

I'm glad the 1st gen guys are so proud of running 15.9's...hahahaha.
I'm proud that I'm faster than you (dance)

[Gen1GT]

i'm still faster.
Claims are useless without backing it up...at least with a number.

[stdntDrvr]

geez...can we get this thread back on topic? who cares about how fast your car is?

i want to see some dyno #'s from wagner!!

[Replica]

I'm proud that I'm faster than you (dance)Haha, I'm happy for you. Race my old single cam D15 civic....mid 14's....

[stdntDrvr]

geez...can we get this thread back on topic? who cares about how fast your car is?

i want to see some dyno #'s from wagner!!

[SpicyMchaggis]

I'll still win the "who can roll their windows up the fastest" competition.

[Replica]

I'll still win the "who can roll their windows up the fastest" competition.I used to be a pro at that. Nothing like having to crank the window down to talk shit to a car that costs way more than mine. (rofl)

[Installshield 2]

Install...you wanna talk about rod ratios? Both the FS and BP have 83mm bores, but compare the BPs 85mm stroke to the FSs 92! At least we're ALMOST square.....(thumb)
This is retarded...the FS-DE is a stroked FP-DE, it has 200 more cubic centimeters of displacement...and it gets that through stroke...

What do you mean by "at least" we are almost square...like implying that square its something to strive for...A B18C5 is undersquare...and has a powerband and rev limit that would devour both our engines...

And the rod ratio's are whats going to threaten your "8500" rpm'ness...despite having less stroke than an FS, you still have a lower rod ratio...which translates into nearly the same thing...Your piston speeds at 8500 would be RiDONKulous...

but I am done...this arguing is annoying...Sorry men...Perfypoo any progress?

[SpicyMchaggis]

nothing beats cranking down the window to talk shit to owners of nice cars.

[YP5 Toronto]

Welcome to the world of --> GEN1GT is faster than you all "world".... he is very motivated at making sure that he profess the outstanding benefits of the BP engine while insuring that he point out the "weeknessess" of the FS series motor.

[Replica]

Welcome to the world of --> GEN1GT is faster than you all "world".... he is very motivated at making sure that he profess the outstanding benefits of the BP engine while insuring that he point out the "weeknessess" of the FS series motor.Wow, thank you GEN1GT, I'm going to sell my flawless P5 right now for a old busted ass Protege. Because as we all know, FWD cars are all about that 1/4....

[dudeondacouch]

Welcome to the world of --> GEN1GT is faster than you all "world".... he is very motivated at making sure that he profess the outstanding benefits of the BP engine while insuring that he point out the "weeknessess" of the FS series motor.
I just think it's funny that you can send an email to his quarter mile time!
(hah) 15.9@86

[akhilleus]

enough .... what is going on with the cams??????? I guess i will know on the 8th but some of us are on different continents...or cross country and they would appreciate some info. I would think that the head was at least tested on a flow bench for the cams... or a program...if not then where would the r&d be? forget the bp crackhead...mayeb the mods can start modding his posts

[Kooldino]

Better write them a blank cheque. (thumb)

Honestly, if you want 150whp, you might just want to buy an FS-ZE. It'll be cheaper, and you'll have a better start for tuning. The ZE would probably put 140 to the ground. Add some bolt-ons, and you should be over 150 easily.
Wrong.

ZE is a TOTAL waste of money.

Ask Linux, he had one.

[Kooldino]

any n/a protege even break into the 14's yet in the 1/4 mile?(with or without nitrous) Yes. One of our members did it 2 years or so ago...with nitrous. He made his own turbo kit as well. But he did run 14's N/A w/ N2O after he deturboed his car.

[Replica]

Patio was a 14.7 with a 70 shot...

[murda79]

(rofl)


I just think it's funny that you can send an email to his quarter mile time!
(hah) 15.9@86

[mp5smuggler]

was the guy who was running juice in a white pro? with a zex kit? i remember seeing a white pro that had a zex kit on cardomain.com that said he ran 14.8 with a 75 shot or something

[Replica]

was the guy who was running juice in a white pro? with a zex kit? i remember seeing a white pro that had a zex kit on cardomain.com that said he ran 14.8 with a 75 shot or somethingYeah, it was white. He posts on here rarely. From Houston...

[PR5Matt]

^^^^^
"V8's are slow and gay on july 24th."

Oh, really?

[mp5smuggler]

yea he was also just running a cone filter on his stock intake tube too i think

[Gen1GT]

Wow, thank you GEN1GT, I'm going to sell my flawless P5 right now for a old busted ass Protege. Because as we all know, FWD cars are all about that 1/4....
When did I compare the P5 to 1st Gens?

[Gen1GT]

I sent one...(protest)

What a homo.
Uncalled for.....

[Installshield 2]

Yes. One of our members did it 2 years or so ago...with nitrous. He made his own turbo kit as well. But he did run 14's N/A w/ N2O after he deturboed his car.
Was that CHdesign? or something...I remember him I think, he was like the first turbo'd 3rd gen right? I vaguely remember him making a Turbo kit out of mistu parts, but ripped it apart because he was worried about not having an intercooler installed...man that was like 2 1/2 years ago...

[Gen1GT]

Nitrous IS NOT considered 'all motor.' If so, I'd run a 150 shot, wet kit.

Guys, I want to see the results of these cams just as much as you guys do. Just to show you that just 'dropping' them in, isn't going to give you 25hp.

[florence]

Hi, Perf, would you still dyno this week? Can't wait you news! (thumb)

[akhilleus]

I dont think anyone expects 25hp from the cams. with management or with 2k2's mp3 ecu u could see more...adv timing, fuel adjustments but ultimately if u got 15 real whp from the pair i believe that would be impressive for what they are. Also u have to factor in that they may give very little in gains on a stock engine...but gains could vary substantially based on upgrades...i believe perf is very busy with the upcoming open house... or he has just given up on this thread and will start a new one

[Gen1GT]

I dont think anyone expects 25hp from the cams. with management or with 2k2's mp3 ecu u could see more...adv timing, fuel adjustments but ultimately if u got 15 real whp from the pair i believe that would be impressive for what they are. Also u have to factor in that they may give very little in gains on a stock engine...but gains could vary substantially based on upgrades...i believe perf is very busy with the upcoming open house... or he has just given up on this thread and will start a new one
Finally someone who doesn't believe in snake oil!

Read the whole thread. There ARE people who expect that much power.

[SpicyMchaggis]

i'm not one of them..these motors are going no where n/a..i know..

[Replica]

^^^^^
"V8's are slow and gay on july 24th."

Oh, really?Fast and Furious 3 quote....I'm sure the video is on a domestic board somewhere. It's pretty funny.

[Gen1GT]

i'm not one of them..these motors are going no where n/a..i know..
Then why does your sig state you're an NA enthusiast?

[AZDriftR]

Gaw'd i cant believe i read all that BS and still no dyno results...hey perf where r ya????? otherwise ill have to go with sunbelt

[mp5smuggler]

azdriftr i didnt know sunbelt made cams for the 2.0 engine... cam gears yes but not the cams themselves. you have a link?

[GNO]

There's already a GB going on. However, it's on another forum.
http://www.protegeclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=295286#post295286

[SpicyMchaggis]

gen1gt, your a smacktard...it's a joke man..its a paradox..my car is just as fast as yours..really..it is..if not faster.

[Gen1GT]

gen1gt, your a smacktard...it's a joke man..its a paradox..my car is just as fast as yours..really..it is..if not faster.1. What's a smacktard?
2. Prove that your car is faster than mine.

Idiot(smash)

[akhilleus]

Those are wagner satge 2 cams... on protegeclub.. same as here.. sunbelt(tripoint) makes cam gears as was said. and gen1gt u have basically ruined this thread... damn forum noob.. and one of us will have #'s soon that will embarrass u and we will all laugh...except u.

[YP5 Toronto]

hey Gen1GT....

you forgot: (edited out)

3) What does Paradox mean?
4) (something like) Prove you are faster?

[Gen1GT]

hey Gen1GT....

you forgot: (edited out)

3) What does Paradox mean?
4) (something like) Prove you are faster?
rekanize...what's your point Gayson Exlax?

[Gen1GT]

Those are wagner satge 2 cams... on protegeclub.. same as here.. sunbelt(tripoint) makes cam gears as was said. and gen1gt u have basically ruined this thread... damn forum noob.. and one of us will have #'s soon that will embarrass u and we will all laugh...except u.
Bring it on bitch. I'll be the one laughing when you guys are trying to squeeze 120whp out of the FS. Even if a P5 or 3rd gen sedan HAD more power, it still wouldn't be fast...I've got a 700lb advantage over you.

And how did I ruin this threat? By trying to talk some sense into you guys, and get your heads out of the clouds? When you're making 150whp in an FS all-motor, then I'll eat my words. Even still, by the time that happens, I'll be in the 14s........

[flat_black]

I think I'm gonna get my car dynoed once I get my high flow second cat/NA downpipe, just for giggles.

[SpicyMchaggis]

dude you have a shitty probe..i have just as much work done to mine, as yours..i've even honed out the throttle body and re-cab'd the maf..i can run 16 flats like its going out style..so quit your damn crying..besides..if your honestly bragging about owning an n/a probe or protege..you should be shot.

[Installshield 2]

Bring it on bitch. I'll be the one laughing when you guys are trying to squeeze 120whp out of the FS. Even if a P5 or 3rd gen sedan HAD more power, it still wouldn't be fast...I've got a 700lb advantage over you.

And how did I ruin this threat? By trying to talk some sense into you guys, and get your heads out of the clouds? When you're making 150whp in an FS all-motor, then I'll eat my words. Even still, by the time that happens, I'll be in the 14s........Dude again...With 3 cheap mods you can have over 120whp...its been dyno'd and proven...a header, a J-spec intake cam, and a MSP exhaust cam...So you won't be laughing at anything in that regard, it has already been done...

Honestly why are you here? This board has virtually no 1st gen people...no one cares about your BP, you 15.9, or your 700 lbs lighter box (how much do you think a P5 ways though? the 3rd gen sedans are like 2630lbs, and the 5's are 2714lbs...both wet...I don't think the first gens are under 2000lbs)...but we do not need someone coming into meaningful threads, and throwing out BS about how this and that sucks...We don't go to your Escort forums and start saying how everyone's car is ugly as fuck...so just fuckin' leave (at least this thread)...

[ddogg777]

I am unsubscribing from this thread, when the cams come out would someone please tell me!

[scorch70]

Thats wild! I have been lurking these forums for a fairly long time, and I have never seen Install go off on anyone! Damn! :)

Just unusual, thats all. Had it coming maybe. The forums really need positive comments/ideas, not bashing/negative stuff. We're all here to learn (at least I am), and when someone comes around pretending to know everything (whether they do or not, doesn't matter), and telling everyone that they are wasting their time, it usually isn't met with smiles and handshakes.


/rambling
scorch70

[Gen1GT]

Dude again...With 3 cheap mods you can have over 120whp...its been dyno'd and proven...a header, a J-spec intake cam, and a MSP exhaust cam...So you won't be laughing at anything in that regard, it has already been done...

Honestly why are you here? This board has virtually no 1st gen people...no one cares about your BP, you 15.9, or your 700 lbs lighter box (how much do you think a P5 ways though? the 3rd gen sedans are like 2630lbs, and the 5's are 2714lbs...both wet...I don't think the first gens are under 2000lbs)...but we do not need someone coming into meaningful threads, and throwing out BS about how this and that sucks...We don't go to your Escort forums and start saying how everyone's car is ugly as fuck...so just fuckin' leave (at least this thread)...Ya, you squeeze 120whp with those mods...what's next? Nothing, all custom work. Take your car to a weigh station and I GUARANTEE it'll be way more than you think. My car was supposed to weigh in at 2350. I took 150lbs out of the interior(everything aft of the B-Pillar), took it to a weigh station, and it tipped in at 2360. With an empty tank of gas.

The only things I'm not saying which aren't meaningful, are responses to this kind of shit. I know what I'm talking about, and Install, you seem to also. Other than that, everyone thinks they're going to get 170whp with $2000. I'm here to tell you differently. I'm not going anywhere, since I want to see exactly how it is all of this is going to happen. Like I said, when the 'magic' cams are done and dynoed, and all you FS guys are getting 150whp, you can tar and feather me. In the mean time...Prove me wrong!

I'm not here for anyone to care about me, I came here because I did a search and this cam thread came up. Now I'm here to see if anyone can back their words up with some numbers......

[SpicyMchaggis]

I've put a lot of time into my DX, and I've gotten substantial gains without install a header or altering the cams..i'm not honestly looking for 150 or 200whp n/a..if you weren't lurking it you would know it's a running gag...i'm at the point where 120whp/130lbft is the most i'm going to get..i don't think i'm even going to do cams anymore..my DX is pretty damn quick..pretty much anyone from pro-mazda or the jersey meet can attest to that..so chill those guns, sit down and wait for the product to come out.

[Installshield 2]

Ya, you squeeze 120whp with those mods...what's next? Nothing, all custom work. Take your car to a weigh station and I GUARANTEE it'll be way more than you think. My car was supposed to weigh in at 2350. I took 150lbs out of the interior(everything aft of the B-Pillar), took it to a weigh station, and it tipped in at 2360. With an empty tank of gas.

The only things I'm not saying which aren't meaningful, are responses to this kind of shit. I know what I'm talking about, and Install, you seem to also. Other than that, everyone thinks they're going to get 170whp with $2000. I'm here to tell you differently. I'm not going anywhere, since I want to see exactly how it is all of this is going to happen. Like I said, when the 'magic' cams are done and dynoed, and all you FS guys are getting 150whp, you can tar and feather me. In the mean time...Prove me wrong!

I'm not here for anyone to care about me, I came here because I did a search and this cam thread came up. Now I'm here to see if anyone can back their words up with some numbers......
Ok...I see your point again...It seems like you make a decent post that simply contradicts some bad claims, and then come back though with some very negative digs at 3rd gen proteges...My only point being that this board being a majority of 3rd gen owners, its the wrong place to do the second part...A pile of puke shouldn't go to a sewage plant and start telling shit it stinks...thats all...

But I am sorry guys, obviously this thread has been dropped by the ones who started it...I publically apologize Nick...I just wanted to try and keep the sides even...some arguments would go unmatched, it I tried to get involved...

[Installshield 2]

Thats wild! I have been lurking these forums for a fairly long time, and I have never seen Install go off on anyone! Damn! :)

Just unusual, thats all. Had it coming maybe. The forums really need positive comments/ideas, not bashing/negative stuff. We're all here to learn (at least I am), and when someone comes around pretending to know everything (whether they do or not, doesn't matter), and telling everyone that they are wasting their time, it usually isn't met with smiles and handshakes.


/rambling
scorch70
yeah sorry dude...I try to stay out of stuff...I have just been way too stressed lately, and vented a little I guess...1stgen don't take it personally obviously, its not like I know you or anything...I will try to stay away from dicky shit like that from now on...also being that I cannot prove you wrong with any credible proof, you are mostly correct...but hopefully some good stuff will be released soon, and maybe we will fall in between the two extremes...

[Gen1GT]

yeah sorry dude...I try to stay out of stuff...I have just been way too stressed lately, and vented a little I guess...1stgen don't take it personally obviously, its not like I know you or anything...I will try to stay away from dicky shit like that from now on...also being that I cannot prove you wrong with any credible proof, you are mostly correct...but hopefully some good stuff will be released soon, and maybe we will fall in between the two extremes...
...Fair enough

[flat_black]

Wow... I've seen arguments break out in a lot of threads, but rarely, if perhaps never, have I seen anyone apologize. Amazing. =) There are some civil people around!

[Gen1GT]

I'll take this opportunity to apologize too then. I'm really not trying to diss on everyone for having an FS, and I'm especially not dissin on people trying to make NA power, because I'm the NA Crusader. I really only wanted to explain that it is EXTREMELY hard to make NA power. The first few mods get you lots, but it's 1hp here, 2hp there after that. After IHE, the only 3 mods that will get you noticable power gains are cams, headwork, and higher compression.

Which is why I'm so apprehensive about these camshafts. Larger lift cams will get you more power and torque. Anything more than 9mm, and you'll need new springs and retainers too. Longer duration cams are only good for high RPM, which can only be taken advantage of with the appropriate head/intake/fuel mods. Cams that make power from 5500-7500RPM are no good on a car who's head/intake manifold/throttle body are only good to flow up to 6500RPM. Not only that, longer duration cams limit dynamic compression ratio. So on a car that doesn't flow enough air to work at 6500RPM, and the loss of torque related to higher duration cams, it just doesn't make sense. You could actually LOSE power.

So without knowing the specs of those cams, how does one know how to tune his engine to advantage of those cams? THAT'S why I was sceptical, and unfortunately, it blew out of proportion.........

[akhilleus]

Ok i think we all agree on a couple points... however...Nick owns a protege. He will be making cams that will work perfectly with the FS head. Most people who buy them will have done other mods already or will be planning on it. No one here thinks they are some magic mod that will gain them some disproportionate amount of power. Vendors also generally exagerate hp gains....or err higher. Now Nick is generally careful not to make any claims on hp until he has proof...example AEM.
I will be at the open house tommorrow and i am sure we will talk about cams some. i guess Gen1Gt u should try and be more respectful since there are alot of knowledegable people here who have worked hard to get gains on the FS.

[SpicyMchaggis]

Well I'm glad we can all agree..Sorry I called you a smacktard..haha..it's all good man. (laugh)

[bonesmp5]

Bump ^^ for free peace and double Bump ^^^^^^

for a nice cam combo -----

[melicha8]

On that positive note(which is how all arguments on the board should be resolved) I move that we close this thread until Wagner has posted the results. I figure we shouldn't beat a dead horse here and just close it so the uneducated can read up on the thread instead of asking the same question that has been asked on this long thread many times

[perfworks]

Ok...I see your point again...It seems like you make a decent post that simply contradicts some bad claims, and then come back though with some very negative digs at 3rd gen proteges...My only point being that this board being a majority of 3rd gen owners, its the wrong place to do the second part...A pile of puke shouldn't go to a sewage plant and start telling shit it stinks...thats all...

But I am sorry guys, obviously this thread has been dropped by the ones who started it...I publically apologize Nick...I just wanted to try and keep the sides even...some arguments would go unmatched, it I tried to get involved...Install you along with many on this forum have been a voice of reason for a long time. No offense will ever be taken for those who try to keep a balance on things. But we are not participating in this forum any longer. Our customers may but we wont. There is a hand full of people that do nothing all day but cause problems. We dont want to be a part of it any longer. We have a strong following and some great people in this forum. Unfortunately it isnt fair to them to have to go thru pages and pages of BS that is made up to hurt people in order to get information about our cars. Too many people are being tanted with lies about false information. It is a shame, but we will be on a new forum in a few weeks. At that point we will post all our products and GB threads there. We will post a link for those who are interested. Even for those who are not. The point is not that other vendors shouldnt be allowed to promote products but to stay out of personal attacks. They should concentrate on their products and not what I or Andy or even the keebler elves do.
On a side note we will be doing some dyno testing when we have a chance in the comming week. I have tried to please people but some ruin it for others with there impatience. We are working to continue the advancement of aftermarket products for this vehicle. We will let our work speak for itself rather than try to defend BS comments from people that cant even provide ONE f'ing graph of their own.

In my sig is where everyone can contact us if they need to. We have been a little hard to reach lately with the business trips, open house and alot of work. BUT we have some more people working and making things easier to navigate. We will be back ontrack this week an everyone who needs to talk about any productswe offer can contact us at the shop. (717) 846 1570

[scorch70]

Damn, that sucks Perf. I certainly can't blame you for leaving. However, don't you think the people who are causing you problems will just follow you to the next forum, and then it will start all over again?


scorch70

[perfworks]

Damn, that sucks Perf. I certainly can't blame you for leaving. However, don't you think the people who are causing you problems will just follow you to the next forum, and then it will start all over again?


scorch70We are starting a tech forum similar to this one in a manner that will allow everyone to come on and talk about their cars. But we wont stand for any personal attacks on anyone. It doesnt matter if they have another product and so on. Its about focusing on the work and our hobbies. Not lies and BS to hurt people. If they follow and start problems they at least will be dealt with. We need to have civility not hostile BS because someones pissed that I talked about why something didnt work the way they claimed. Then get a group of morons to come on here and try to discredit our work when we always do our best to help and advance peoples efforts in this and every community.
It isnt worth comming to this site anymore. All the work we have done feels like it isnt worth it sometimes. It was never about money but about accomplishment. Those who deal with us and know us know this to be true. I cant stand it when people try to discredit honest work from anyone.
How easy is it to defend yourself when it is a he said she said argument. They say your an idiot and you say your not. Who has the godly power to judge anyone? Why because they talked to you in a sexy voice over the phone, or struck a cord with you when you discussed a similar hobby?
This forum was to talk about our cars. How much we like modding them and share our knowledge with those who needed advice on how to's and shit. Now its a war about who is full of shit.
ALOT of people know shit when they see it. So when I point it out I get reamed by a hand full of ignorant fools they expect noone to say anything. We let our work speak for itself. And when someone elses work can compare we will be glad to say so.
So far the ones complaining in other threads havent shown ONE F'in ounce of proof on there product. WE have and we are questioned by the ones who talk shit on this site. I would like some of the people on the board to be in our shoes for one day and see the BS that is thrown our way. When you see some of the gimmicks people use to sell BS products it is amazing. That is all I have to say.
I love this forum and am sad to leave but it is time.

[midnightracr]

[QUOTE=perfworks]We are starting a tech forum similar to this one in a manner that will allow everyone to come on and talk about their cars.

That sounds good go me. There is way to much fucking drama on this board. It's too much like a Soap Opera at times. It's great you & Andy are starting your own Forum. How else will I know when ya'll come out with something new. I can't call you every month to ask if there's anything new comming out soon. Well I could but you would get tired of that really soon. So I say hell yeah. Open up a Forum I will Deff be there. I hate to hear you and Andy leave but I undersatnd fully where ya'll are comming from. By the way not to sound like a dick or anything cause I know you have a lot of things going at once. How is my kit looking?

[Subghetto]

It sucks that your leaving this forum but I will def check out the new forum since in the future I plan to get more parts from you guys I already ordered your header through a group buy and can't wait till it arrives. Yeah people here sometimes don't realize that talking shit causes vendors to get PO and leave. Oh well at least you will still be catering to those that care for your products. Keep up the good work andy and nick.

[akhilleus]

Well it was bound to happen...... :( damn those fuckheads that screwed a good thing.. although it will be better when u dont have to sift through pages of arguements just to find out nothing has been released. I think u will receive alot of support nick and it will be nice to have a truely technical forum for wagner products and releases. I have noticed that as i have been a member here the quality of info has dropped substantially..Maybe cause most fo the good stuff has been done already but at least there is a hope for some more advancements in the near future.... good luck guys... we will be in touch
Oh and by the way I LOVED the open house.... just wish it wasnt so far away.

[Gen1GT]

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but I'm not a vendor trying to put anyone's products down. You want my dyno chart? Here it is. I'm not called BS on your product, or what you claim it may or may not put out. I just said that a cam is useless without knowing it's specs. That's it. All other arguements have nothing to do with you. I'm under the impression you're leaving this board because your products aren't getting you the power you hoped that they were, and you're leaving because you don't to explain yourself.

If you're really leaving for the reason you say you are, you need to get over it. If you're products are what they say they are, then they do the talking for you, and everything everyone else(including myelf) means nothing. I for one would have loved to see what your cams produced. It would nice if the FS got some real aftermarket support, which I'm sure will just take time.

[perfworks]

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but I'm not a vendor trying to put anyone's products down. You want my dyno chart? Here it is. I'm not called BS on your product, or what you claim it may or may not put out. I just said that a cam is useless without knowing it's specs. That's it. All other arguements have nothing to do with you. I'm under the impression you're leaving this board because your products aren't getting you the power you hoped that they were, and you're leaving because you don't to explain yourself.

If you're really leaving for the reason you say you are, you need to get over it. If you're products are what they say they are, then they do the talking for you, and everything everyone else(including myelf) means nothing. I for one would have loved to see what your cams produced. It would nice if the FS got some real aftermarket support, which I'm sure will just take time. First I was directing anything toward you. I havent seen your posts really and by the sound of your tone I dont care to.
Our "power figures" or lack of performance gains as you put it are not the reason we dont support this site any longer. We haven't gotten to the dyno yet is all. If you would like to have discussion about the FS motor let me know. As far as specs are concerned they will tell you NOTHING with out a list of modifications to the vehicles intake and exhaust, dyno runs, port velocity, valve area crossection etc etc. We wont give our our specs. We will only dyno the package and give the customer an idea of what they will expect with their car.
Just for the record

[Gen1GT]

Fair enough...when I'm done pulling the head of this baby, flow-benching it and making all the measurements, you can tell me the specs....(or what they would be if my car was an FS)

[AlbinoMuntjac]

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but I'm not a vendor trying to put anyone's products down. You want my dyno chart? Here it is. I'm not called BS on your product, or what you claim it may or may not put out. I just said that a cam is useless without knowing it's specs. That's it. All other arguements have nothing to do with you. I'm under the impression you're leaving this board because your products aren't getting you the power you hoped that they were, and you're leaving because you don't to explain yourself.

If you're really leaving for the reason you say you are, you need to get over it. If you're products are what they say they are, then they do the talking for you, and everything everyone else(including myelf) means nothing. I for one would have loved to see what your cams produced. It would nice if the FS got some real aftermarket support, which I'm sure will just take time.I've got a feeling that you're just fishing for an arguement. So what if he doesn't want to give out his specs?? Do you honestly think that the more you bitch, moan, and whine is going to change his mind?? You're acting like a little kid who hasn't gotten his way: You didn't get what you wanted so you're escalating your complaining and now starting to attack the person who won't give in and try to make it sound as if they are in the wrong when it's really you trying to deflect the criticism that is going to you onto them. Give it up already. He doesn't have to tell you shit.
There are TONS of small time performance companies out there, like Nick, that don't tell customers jack. They provide plenty of information to back up their claims, but they don't give out specific information about those products. There are tons of such companies like that in the 5.0 Mustang and the LS-series Chevy motor camps. If you are so apprehensive about his products, don't use them. Don't troll threads looking for a way to make yourself sound as if you are some all-knowing car god. You're not. Nick brought a whole lot more to this board than you can ever bring. While he may not have been talking about you in specific, you and people like you are the reason he's leaving. He never said anywhere in his posts about possible power gains with the new cams. You and several other people were the one's that automatically started to assume stuff. Like any reputable company, he was just telling us the status of an upcoming product, not pulling numbers out of his ass just to make a sale.
To be perfectly honest and a little more blunt, I personally think that this board would greatly benefit if you and your "end-all be-all" first gen DX would die in a fire. Preferably both at the same time.

[Gen1GT]

Are you over it yet, you ugly-assed mofo?

Say what you want about my first gen, but it'll ALWAYS be faster than yours

(jerkit)

[AlbinoMuntjac]

Are you over it yet, you ugly-assed mofo?

Say what you want about my first gen, but it'll ALWAYS be faster than yours

(jerkit)I never professed my car to be faster than yours. Once again, please don't assume what you clearly have no clue about. And that's not me, fucktard.

[SpicyMchaggis]

oh my god, see what I mean? this is what nick is talking about. All of you shut the hell up.

[YP5 Toronto]

spicy......Gen1GT can't shut up...he must....must..must...insure the world knows that he is the fastest...

[AlbinoMuntjac]

oh my god, see what I mean? this is what nick is talking about. All of you shut the hell up.Yeah, I know I'm just contributing to it now. Sorry bout all that. I guess I felt the need to stand up for Nick eventhough I was pretty sure no good would come from it. It's amazing, I come to this post just about every day, and I always click on "Last Page" assuming that it couldn't have gone too far from the previous day (unless results were posted) and I'm wrong. Daily. I've waded through 15 pages of bullshit hoping things around here would change, but I guess I just set myself up for disappointment. Just gets annoying after a while. Guess I know what Nick was talking about, albeit on a smaller scale.

[SpicyMchaggis]

no no man, your cool albino..i'm just tired of people on these boards stirring up shit for no reason. now we've lost one of the biggest (if not the) vendor on our forum thanks to masses of asshats. Who care's who's the fastest..By the way, My DX is fastArer than jesus on wheels.

[akhilleus]

Its funny actually how random people can ruin threads....why dont the moderators moderate more... I mean its destructive how one person can ruin informative threads and turn them into endless unwinnable arguements. I thought this topic about gen1gt was over.... but apprently it goes on on and on. And perf isnt leaving because of any one individual but due to along period of bs from various individuals who at times are very much like gen1gt but generally have more clout here. Maybe the mods should make more closed stickies for releases or do more moderating.... there are alot of them... they can delete posts....warn people... something. whatever...

[SpicyMchaggis]

maybe if i give nick a hug and tell him how much he means to the community he'll stay..i win hearts with my nonsense..i'm always willing to help out.

[Gen1GT]

Firstly, I'd just like to say I'm not going anywhere if you guys think you're going to be rid of me. I've been made out to be an asshole because I'm someone with an opinion that's not always on the same page as someone else, and I'm someone who knows shit and isn't one bit humble about it. I'm a cocky-assed sunsa-bitch to you guys, and there's nothing I can do now to change your minds, so I'm not going to try.

Secondly, this thread was ruined 8 pages ago, and guess what. ALL OF YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THAT. It takes two to argue(in this case 8), and by responding to everything I've said, you've 'lowered yourself to my level'(wherever that level may be...)

Thirdly, what the hell's wrong with you guys that you can let the opinion of one person get you so rattled and bent out of shape? Get over it. Don't like what I have to say? No-one said you HAVE to respond.

[Gen1GT]

spicy......Gen1GT can't shut up...he must....must..must...insure the world knows that he is the fastest... Thanks for the input Captain Two Cents......

[Replica]

Firstly, I'd just like to say I'm not going anywhere if you guys think you're going to be rid of me. I've been made out to be an asshole because I'm someone with an opinion that's not always on the same page as someone else, and I'm someone who knows shit and isn't one bit humble about it. I'm a cocky-assed sunsa-bitch to you guys, and there's nothing I can do now to change your minds, so I'm not going to try.

Secondly, this thread was ruined 8 pages ago, and guess what. ALL OF YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THAT. It takes two to argue(in this case 8), and by responding to everything I've said, you've 'lowered yourself to my level'(wherever that level may be...)

Thirdly, what the hell's wrong with you guys that you can let the opinion of one person get you so rattled and bent out of shape? Get over it. Don't like what I have to say? No-one said you HAVE to respond.I'm just scurr'd of the big rims on the back.

[SpicyMchaggis]

Frankly I don't give a shit..There are far too many trolls on this forum, and thats the real reason why nick is leaving. I left my comment on poor roni's thread. I'm done with this too.

[Gen1GT]

I'm just scurr'd of the big rims on the back.
It's not about the big rims on the back. It's about the small tires on the front. Smaller wheel=lower gear ratio.....

[Salmon_Rob]

Are you over it yet, you ugly-assed mofo?

Say what you want about my first gen, but it'll ALWAYS be faster than yours

(jerkit)
dude, there is enough animosity between the owners of different gens as it is. dont add fuel to the fire. the bp and the fsde both have ups and downs, just that we have had longer and more factory support with our engine. given time, the fs will be just as good or better than the bp. dont hate, just everyone get along dammit

[bonesmp5]

How about we just delete this thread and start over --


just an idea ---> maybe start a BS thread -- hehehehehe(bicker)

[SpicyMchaggis]

probably a bad idea..but seriously..it's over..it's done. lets move on..

[mp5jeff]

I'm just scurr'd of the big rims on the back.he needs all the help he can to run those awesome 16's(not rim size, 1/4 mile time!)...

[Gen1GT]

he needs all the help he can to run those awesome 16's(not rim size, 1/4 mile time!)...
And you're pround that you can run 17s?

[Salmon_Rob]

And you're pround that you can run 17s?*sigh* if you would look in your sig, you would see that both of his cars are faster than yours

[Gen1GT]

LOL, well I'm sure the TURBO P5 is, but not the M320.

[Salmon_Rob]

m320's run mid 15s

[Gen1GT]

m320's run mid 15s
No chance. You think a 4400lb vehicle with 215hp can do mid 15s? Even the ML430 is slower than my car. Pic your source....

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
http://web.missouri.edu/~apcb20/times.html
http://www.conceptcarz.com/folder/vehicle.asp?car_id=969&autoShowID=&vehicleTypeID=0

ML500 on the other hand, is a little faster

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/spec_engines.aspx?modelid=10260&trimid=-1&src=vip

[Salmon_Rob]

w/e. the point is his mazda protege 5 is faster than your first gen. if there is any more bickering in here i WILL have an admin close this thread.

[Gen1GT]

w/e. the point is his mazda protege 5 is faster than your first gen. if there is any more bickering in here i WILL have an admin close this thread.
dude, you're the one that chimed in with your little arguement. I admitted that his turbo P5 is faster than mine, I just proved you wrong with your ML320 arguement. Don't all rattled because you're wrong man. Like I give a rat's ass if this thread is closed anyway. It's been off-topic for 10 pages, so it doesn't matter.

[dudeondacouch]

w/e. the point is his mazda protege 5 is faster than your first gen. if there is any more bickering in here i WILL have an admin close this thread.
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[Salmon_Rob]

dude, you're the one that chimed in with your little arguement. I admitted that his turbo P5 is faster than mine, I just proved you wrong with your ML320 arguement. Don't all rattled because you're wrong man. Like I give a rat's ass if this thread is closed anyway. It's been off-topic for 10 pages, so it doesn't matter.dude i dont give a crap about that. what i do care about is the fact that now even more 3rd gen owners think that 1st gen owners are argumentative pieces of shit. this isnt even a first gen related thread and yet here you are posting your dyno sheets. i agree that the bp is a great engine, responds great to mods and is quick. but this isnt the place for that discussion.

[ghost]

This bullshit has destroyed this fucking thread. This is why vendors leave, people leave, to other places. Calm down the fucking testasterone, and get a grip people!!

[Gen1GT]

ROTFLMFAO! I can't believe how rattled people get. It's amazing, that a different point of view and a little attitude can get everyone bent out of shape. It's hilarious!(rofl)(hah)(dance)

[Salmon_Rob]

its not a different point of view. its a point irrelevant to the thread. and its a point of view that has caused a lot of strife.

[midnightracr]

Linux: Do Fucking Something For Once. I Mean Fuck U Got This Guy Comming In Here Talking Shit. Ban This Mutha Fucker. Somebody Get Some Real Fucking Balls And Fucking Ban Someone For Once. This Is Fucking Bullshit. Oh, And By The Way Just To Let U Know I Am Yelling At The Pussy Ass Mods That Won't Stand Up For Shit. Makes Me Think All The Mods In Here Are All Pussy's. If U Have To Make An Example Out Of Someone Than Fucking Do It And Do It Soon. Ban This Guy..... Shit

[akhilleus]

at least the mods took notice and said something that is a first.... at least someone said soemthing ...although this thread is just one of many where this bs is going on.

[redrims]

Linux: Do Fucking Something For Once. I Mean Fuck U Got This Guy Comming In Here Talking Shit. Ban This Mutha Fucker. Somebody Get Some Real Fucking Balls And Fucking Ban Someone For Once. This Is Fucking Bullshit. Oh, And By The Way Just To Let U Know I Am Yelling At The Pussy Ass Mods That Won't Stand Up For Shit. Makes Me Think All The Mods In Here Are All Pussy's. If U Have To Make An Example Out Of Someone Than Fucking Do It And Do It Soon. Ban This Guy..... Shit
DAM!!(boom04)

hopefully you don't get banned for your abrasive language...

[Gen1GT]

Linux: Do Fucking Something For Once. I Mean Fuck U Got This Guy Comming In Here Talking Shit. Ban This Mutha Fucker. Somebody Get Some Real Fucking Balls And Fucking Ban Someone For Once. This Is Fucking Bullshit. Oh, And By The Way Just To Let U Know I Am Yelling At The Pussy Ass Mods That Won't Stand Up For Shit. Makes Me Think All The Mods In Here Are All Pussy's. If U Have To Make An Example Out Of Someone Than Fucking Do It And Do It Soon. Ban This Guy..... Shit
Hahahaha. Give one good reason why I should be banned instead of YOU.

(hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand) (hand)

[mp5jeff]

Just because i don't go around bragging about my cars like yourself you think i have a 17sec p5. nice...acctualy its a p5 that outruns srt-4s and modded lt-1's but whatever. Oh and thats with 17 inch rims(that weigh 22lbs each) on all 4 sides rofl. So go have fun BARELY running 15's with that awesome drag setup you got there with the 10s in the front and shut the fuck up.

[mp5jeff]

just for information sake, the 2001 ml320s run around low 16's with triptronic shifter. So if you even launch bad(or other minor mistake), i will own you in an suv.