Clunk fix prototype testing: MSP/MP3 Rear Suspension

[ping]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Micaspeed!
Hey!
...PING has recieved his kit and will post his comments and perspective any time now....
Godspeed!
Dave
www.delsingmotorsport.com (http://www.delsingmotorsport.com/)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Dave is THE MAN when it comes to MSP suspension!

Delsing Motorsports is in heavy testing on two actual prototypes of their Protege sedan rear suspension improvements - both on black mica MSP's. Delsing is running an MSP in AutoX and has race/autoX tests in progress (go Dave!). Check their website for details and a pic of the prototype.

I've been running the second prototype through real-life experiences, including play-by-plays on driving impressions and a limited check on longevity and drive-ability in gritty salty gunk, using my custom-calibrated butt-o-meter, digicam, and driver/passenger impressions. I'm getting some of the bushing specs dialed in (red or black? Zerk? etc.) and providing Delsing real-life feedback.

Don't call it only a clunk fix - while the clunk is indeed fixed, the real change is making the rear bar WORK. The difference is noticably better than stock, and with the stock MSP bar.

Here are a few quick initial comments on currently-very-limited "real world" testing (just put the kit on the car Saturday):

1) Straightforward installation, hand tools and jackstands, not really much harder than oil change and a lot less messy. Took me 2.5 hours, using jackstands, a floor jack (no lift), with handwritten directions and taking notes. 2) Easily adaptable to many swaybar designs and diameters (including, o course, the stock one!). Easy to return to stock configuration.
3) Oh - the thing WORKS. Big time. And it ALSO fixes the clunk.

I have more testing to do, and the design/finish work isn't quite complete (Dave's got a few things in mind, and the prototypes don't have the plating/finish that the finished product will have), but I think he's looking at late-April for a release date - not that far off! In the meantime...

If anyone has some tests or results they'd like to see, or questions they want answered, post 'em or PM and we'll try to get an answer or test to get at one. If you have other sites or friends you want to refer, let us know. Bear in mind, Dave's doing (done) a lot of the race, autoX, and fit testing. I'm handling the "real world", potholes-and-salty grit, snow-tires-and-commuting, four-friends-and-I-go-to-lunch impressions. I'm in New Jersey and running a stock MSP currently on (good) 16" snows - if you're near me I'd be happy to meet so you can see the install, I'm near exit 25 off 80. I'll be posting pictures, a quickie installation guide, tips, etc, and getting the 17's on pretty soon so we have impressions on both sets o' tires.

Godspeed, and stay Tuned! :D :D :D

Peace,
-LDixon
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[PaulMP3]

damn.. ur lucky

wonder if he needs and MP3 testor?? ;)

i noticed your using stock endlinks as well, his upgraded ones shoulds make even more of an improvement. Come to the next NJ/PA meet so we can see it in action!

[TX Speed Demon]

As you know I am very eagerly awaiting this product's release so I can once again make right hand turns. Good work and can't wait.

[Logan]

OK, look at the bolts that hold it to the subframe. What is there in a stock configuration?

[PaulMP3]

OK, look at the bolts that hold it to the subframe. What is there in a stock configuration?
here is a pic of the stock setup if this helpshttp://www.msprotege.com/members/paulmp3/clunk%20fix.jpg

[AutoBox]

OK, look at the bolts that hold it to the subframe. What is there in a stock configuration?
just bolts the mount the subframe to the chassis...im assumin dave provides new longer ones??? i didnt take off the stock bolts to see how long they are




i looks great...im waitin also and look forward to addin the brakets and endlinks to my car :)

[monkeymsp]

So does anyone know how much this is gunna be yet? I searched and the closest I saw was when someone asked in the klunk fix 2 thread. But alas, there was no reply.

[I'm Allen]

I've said it before and I'll say it again..."I'll pay a lot of money for this!"

Allen-

[ping]

- AFAIK, no prices set yet.
- New longer bolts come with the kit, 10.2 (strong), use blue loctite on 'em.
- Yep, i do feel lucky, and unclunked. But... I am going out at 11 at night in 25 degree weather to change out bushings for tomorrow's run (from the undersized red to a zerked properly-sized black)... there are responsibilities too!. Thankfully, this is maybe a 15 minute job with (2) 14mm sockets, a pair of ramps, and a greaasy finger (good design!).
- I can't give super-accurate impressions yet - I'm on the snows and the bushings aren't dialed in yet but the difference is already noticable and positive.

[Kooldino]

Does it squeak at all?

I can't wait to get this!

[MrDiggler]

Hell yeah. Thanks for the effort.

[jrodhotrod]

Thanks for the work, getting excited about this. The bracket looks really good. Will you be testing his endlinks as well?

[ping]

As of right now I'm testing only the brackets, not the endlinks or splined bar (though I'll have to put my name on the list for those - yum). The zerked bushings made a big difference since the previous ones I was testing were undersized, ribbed, and overclamping the bar. As I said we're working out the details but I can definitively say a few things already:

1) No clunk (hooray - a win already!)
2) Improved performance - not "night and day", but definitely noticable. Roll stiffness is perceptably increased (less roll), rear end feels more planted, and handling more predictable - and all that is noticable on 205/55/16 Semperit Sport Grip snow tires, on the street, without over-driving the car. The kit also reduced/removed a little "hitch" I'd get during consistent turns if there was a bump in the middle; it's handling more predictably now.

Items being worked on:
- Finish (mine's a prototype, remember. and not finished as the production units will be)
- Doublechecking fit, hardware, and clearance issues (no major issues yet but it's a box that needs to be checked, involves loading the car, cornering, etc.)
- Maintenance / lubrication issues (making sure they can be lived with)
- Bushing size, type, supplier, and options, etc.

As noted before, Delsing's looking to have this out late April if all luck and testing holds up (and things look quite positive so far); if you have any questions please post, PM, email, or send smoke signals! Dave hasn't established pricing yet as suppliers and finishes for some stock parts (bolts, brackets, bushings) are being finalized - I'm sure he'll let us all know as soon as he's got anything. All I know is that he's not going to be getting rich on these, but needs to make a fair buck to supply 'em to us, and we all want to use good quality components on our rides. Stay Tuned!

Peace,
-LD

[jrodhotrod]

Are the bushings being tested maintenance free or are you testing greasable bushings? Will it be one type or the other that a final decision is based on or will we have a choice?

[ARunto]

sweet..i can't wait till this comes out. looks like it will help alot for auto-x

[ping]

The bracket design will accept several types of bushings - I've checked a "maintenance free" red urethane but the bar was clamped too tightly, so it squeaked and wasn't "right". The zerked urethane is on now and appears to be working perfectly so far, but I've only just begun the testing on this morning's commute. Dave (Delsing Motorsports) has tested several harder black urethanes with custom bushing bracketry - they're harder and more for race/auto-X use... you see where I'm going with this - both of us are testing several different "stock" (off the shelf) bushings with the same basic bracket kit, so you'll have some choice, even if it means buying a $15 set of bushings if you want to further modify a good mod.

Bear in mind that all bushings are wear items, none can be made fully "maintenance free", especially urethane, which is harder and more prone to squeaking. At least a bushing change is only ~ a 15 minute affair with these bushing brackets.

Answering the difficult question: Does this solve "the clunk" long term? Short answer: "Dunno". General consensus and sound engineering tells us the clunk likely comes from the bar not only rotating in the bushings but also bending while rotating. This is further supported by the MP3 crowd (bow to our forebears! (bowdown) ) having gone through an alphabet worth of Mazda reformulated bushings without known long-term success (what are we at now, "E"?)

The new bushing location resolves the "bending bar" issue. We won't have 4000+ miles of testing to bear out a long term fix (I won't drive that much between now and when the kit's released), though Dave's racing puts more stress on the bushings than street driving will and he'll be working the wear-and-tear issue.

Nice thing is that this really is a really nice (and relatively easy to install) upgrade as well - better rear roll siffness on the stock, admittedly good-looking bar.

For Auto-X: This may bump you into another chassis class - check Delsing's (micaspeed's) site for more info.

Hope this helps, always open to reasonable suggestions...

[stdntDrvr]

that's awesome...after he gets this done, do you think he'll develop something for the front?

[Glowmunkey]

Sounds good, keep us posted. Me and the old man are very interested in these for our 'speeds.

[Laser03pro]

Will this fit fine on a ES i want msp sways. Also will it come with end links arent the msp end links different? If he sold a front bar that would be nice also unless mazda will just let you buy the front or do u have to buy the kit? See i dunno if I would have to buy new endlinks all the way around or what.

[ping]

I'm liking the zerked urethane bushings, perhaps they'd fit the front? Don't know, have to check that one.... Put a bunch of trips on the bar this weekend, loaded and unloaded, and it performed well, no clunk, no apparent clearance issues (will be thoroughly inspecting this coming weekend).

I imagine the kit itself would fit an es, especially with an MSP bar, but don't know how the endlinks differ. With Delsing coming out with a 3-piece bar (have seen pictures, loooks great) I imagine getting a used stock MSP bar would be fairly straightforward.

[edstein]

I am very interested in this fix as well. Will some silicone spray work until the fix is released? Do we know who is going to be offering this fix when available?

[Newf]

so, how much stiffer is the ride? I find the car borderline too stiff now over my roads.


OH, and my fingers are still crossed, but the 156E's have been on since Nov. and nothing yet.

...on another note, it's really nice to see the community coming through with yet another great MSP product. Great job!

[StuttersC]

Nice keep up the work and testing...


I've been interested in the progress of this for a while now.

I'm wondering if this will solve the AWR bar clunk issue some others have had...

[ping]

edstein: Silicone spray MAY work to reduce the front swaybar "squawronk" noise, but will have no effect on The Clunk in the rear (has been described as anywhere from "a clunking noise" to "a bowling ball rolling around in the trunk". Mine was somewhere in between. Some have had some luck by removing the bushings and wrapping the bar in teflon tape, works for ~ 150 miles (check the various clunk threads) but The Clunk comes back. What helps is to understand why...

The Physics of The Clunk: Mazda's swaybar bushings are placed too close to the center of the car. This allows the bar to both act in torsion (rotation), which is good, but also allows the bar to bend, which is bad. For a mental picture, take a pen and bend the pocket clip out at a 90 degree angle. Hold the pen right at the base of the clip, and rotate the pen by pushing on the end of the clip. See how the pen only rotates? Now hold the pen near the center of the pen. See how, no matter how tightly you hold the pen, it wants to both rotate AND "bend"? This bending motion does 2 things: 1) It wears out the bushings faster and 2) it places wierd stresses on the pan of the car and between the bushings. Nobody has proven quite where The Clunk comes from, but it disappears with tighter/firmer bushings (for how long nobody knows) and with bushing relocation. Racing Beat apparently had a kit on their race cars but hasn't offered it for sale (there are pics in other clunk threads), Delsing will come to market shortly with their kit, which I'm testing. While we won't have 4000+ miles of testing on the Delsing kit, it logically corrects the underlying issue, which should result in longer-term improvement.

Newf my man! Glad to see you again. The initial kit was very stiff, but initial installation was done with 19mm ribbed bushings which over-clamped the 20mm bar and added resistance to the suspension. Felt good, but a tad too stiff. The zerked (greasable) bushings I have on now give a much more supple ride (darned near stock) on anything from "regular" to moderate roads. On "perhaps I shouldn't take a new car here" bumpy roads (way bumpy) the roll stiffness is more noticable, but not objectionable. In harder cornering, especially sustained "off-ramp" type corners with mid-corner dips or bumps, the rear stays better planted. I was getting a little "hitch" in the "set" that the car takes when cornering in those scenarios; that's gone now and I'm noticing this on 205/55/16 Semperit Sport Grip tires (snow-optimized). I'm planning on putting the 17's on this weekend (if the snow forecast cooperates, we're getting 4-8" right now!) and giving another impression. I'll also reinstall the stock setup afterwards to "back to back" them. Pray for good weather!

[scott42]

I need to clean my pants (wow)

This is great news!!
need to updatemy sig ;)
Thanks Ping and Dave!

[Newf]

thanks ping. Curious to see now if the clunk does indeed stay away.

[ping]

Admittedly still low mileage on the kit, but a unique opportunity last night to drive on soundless roads... you know how quiet it is to drive on very fresh snow? It gives an opportunity to hear every OTHER noise the car makes when tire/road noise is filtered out... I could hear the trans, gearing, and engine but even on a wavy road where the rear clunk was clearly heard in the past there was NO NOISE at all from the rear suspension (good news). And we're due for 6+ inches more snow tonight in my area of NJ. Well, Delsing wanted foul weather testing...! :D

...and if I see ONE more thread with entries from our Southern brethren saying "Snow? What snow? My MSP is FINE in the winter..."... AARGH! I want my 17's back on! I have this nice set of '03.5's... with 170 miles on 'em... none of them mine...:mad:

[Snype451]

Would this kit work with the 'E' sytle bushings from Mazda? (best of both worlds type solution)

[ping]

Delsing's working up some brackets to use the E bushings and I'm testing them next. Different prackets are required to mount the bushings on this kit vs. what Mazda used because Mazda chose to mount the bar on a non-flat section of bodypan. It's no big deal (check pics), but Mazdas bushings are also a different width than aftermarket.

Given Mazda's bushing history, though (let's see, they started with "A"...), I'd almost rather go with good name-brand aftermarket! We'll test 'em see how they work out.

I threw the 17's on yesterday and unfortunately have a "tire pull" (must've put a front on the rear, doh!) so I'm correcting that tonight before driving the 17's too hard. What I could tell on the morning commute was same as before only slightly more so and more immediate. (better rear firmness and predictability but not harsh, no clunk). Also these RE040's really pick up the road grit! My SNOW tires are quieter.

[ping]

UPDATE: I corrected the tire pull (front to rear rotation on one side and I'm straight again) and this thing is FUN!.

With the 17's on the difference in stiffness is noticable, but mild. I can especially see it when pulling into my driveway at a diagonal as the back tire lifts slightly MORE off the ground than before. The ride is not obnoxious - no additional "head toss" on rough roads, but that rear end stays where it's supposed to be under heavy cornering, and trailing throttle can bring that rear end out just enough.

3 weeks of rough roads and salt, sand, sun, rain, and the kit is still clunk free and no squeaks. It's DIRTY under there, but that's to be expected. I cribbed a shot of the type of bushings currently being tested, and took a dirty shot of the suspension as it sits now. I included a gratuitous beefcake shot of the MSP with the 03.5 wheels on it... because I could.

Here are a few shots to help picture this whole thing...

[Pmpkinhead]

Ping, I'm glad the whole tire deal (swop) worked out for us. I put your tires on this past wknd and WOWWW! It was so great driving with the performance tires again. Now I need the suspension you are testing! I now have the fogs, in-line sunroof, and a 20% tinted strip at the top of my windshield. AWESOME BABY(first)

367 (mp3yellow

[ping]

Pmpkinhead: Yep - glad it worked out! Here's another smoke on black pic... think stealth (until that straight pipe roars...) -L

[Laser03pro]

Hurry up n release it my friend needs one bad in his MP3 lol im sick of it just riding with him sometimes.

[MSP2746]

Heh, my MSP just started clunking, and all I've got to say is...do you need a southeastern tester? :) It's a good thing MSPs come with a halfway decent stereo, 'cause I think I'd go crazy if I had to listen to that everytime I drove my car. Eagerly awaiting updates :).

[MrDiggler]

Will be following this closely. I really like the way the bushing with the zerk fitting is working out.

FWIW, at 12,500 miles, I've still not heard the clunk, and the front "squonk" is gone now with warmer weather. It was about 85 deg. and sunny all weekend here in the lovely South... :P

[DooMer_MP3]

My 156Es have failed, and I really would like to get this new kit. How much longer til it comes out?

Chris

[ping]

I'll email Dave again and he'll also probably post when ready. Original goal was soon and very soon... but he wants to make sure these are exactly right before releasing them. I'm also putting zerked reds on next weekend to see what the difference will be. The zerked blacks (Summit Racing 13/16, Energy Suspension urethane) were great, unobtrusive, no squeaks or problems. One very interesting part of this kit is that it allows some semblance of corner weighting - the bar is adjustable (within a narrow range) up and down on each side if you use the right (larger) bushings. This is good if it's adjusted right, but can make the car do weird things if the corner weighting isn't right. On mine I messed around some and found that if the bar isn't installed "loose" and then tightened while the car's on a level surface the sway bar becomes an auxiliary spring in the rear - to use smaller words: "makes the car pull a little". The effect is more noticable on the 17's or larger wheels as the slip angle is smaller and the effect is magnified. Once leveled out, though, everything straightens, the clunk stays away, and the rear end feels more, well, controllable and predictable. It's a subtle thing, not like slapping on a 1/4" larger sway bar but more like tightening up the shocks just a touch.

More as we get it, stand by...I don't think it'll be long but I can't wait either!

-L

[DooMer_MP3]

So are you saying when the time comes, the parts should be installed on jackstands, but torqued to spec while on the ground (suspension loaded)? Just a bit confused. Thanks for the response!

Chris