Someone clarify cams for me.

[rktktpaul]

Ok here's what I gather from all of the threads floaing around regarding cams:

1. US stock intake and exhaust cams have the same lift and duration.

2. Australian cars come stock with the JSPEC intake cam, which has greater lift and duration, and our exhaust cam.

3. The Mazdaspeed exhaust cam, which is no longer available, is basically the JSPEC intake cam repinned to work as an exhaust cam.

4. Installing a JSPEC intake cam and keeping the stock US spec exhaust cam will provide some but minimal gains, and basically get us to stock Australian specifications.

5. Better gains are realized by repinning a JSPEC intake cam for use as an exhaust cam, or finding a Mazdasped exhaust cam, which is basically the same thing.

6. Repinning a stock US spec intake cam will basically create a stock US spec exhaust cam.

7. Minimal gains will be realized by changing out both intake and exhaust cams to JSPEC and Mazdaspeed respectively; greater potential can be realized by using adjustable cam gears.

8. Compared to the cost of adjustable cam gears, custom ground cams are probably a better value in terms of cost and performance gains.

9. . . . I'm too tired to type anymore . .

So is what I've listed above correct, or am I way confused (uhm)

[akhilleus]

U r very confused
first the stock intake and exhaust cams have different lift and duration
second the mazdaspeed exhaust cam is a repinned stock intake cam... more lift
third the jdm intake will show nominal gains. However in the case of the exhaust cam it is better to go custom. cam gears may need to be an option especially when using custom cams. However this is based on how aggressive a profile it is. Finally in my personal opinion since the aus-spec dyno's at sub 100whp with a jdm cam and higher comp pistons then usa-spec there must be other variables effecting performance. I personally did see a modest gain from the intake cam... but i also had more done. the JDM and mazdaspeed cams have dynod to show 8whp gain on a nonmodified engine with most attributed to the intake.
does that help

[twilightprotege]

see what akhilleus wrote....so

1. intake and exhaust are different. intake has more lift, but less duration than exhaust cam
2. correct
3. the mazdaspeed exhaust cam is a repinned USspec intake cam
4. correctish...we have a higher comp ratio, but i think your ecu is better tuned than ours
5. see 3, and it will provide gains, esp on turbo's cars because of more lift
6. see 1 and 3
7. yep
8. sort of. custom ground cams will never be perfectly machined. adjustable cam gears will always help you get the most out of the engine, even with stock cams.
9. ditto.

[StuttersC]

And, you will see a nice gain with the FS-ZE intake cam, Mazdaspeed exhaust cam and the FS-ZE intake manifold, as they all work together in a "matched" sort of way...

TADA!

[twilightprotege]

i wouldnt waste money on the j-spec IM. it's only minimally different from what the rest of the world has.

[StuttersC]

i wouldnt waste money on the j-spec IM. it's only minimally different from what the rest of the world has.
But with the cams it moves the torque curve up slightly and extends it more than just the cams alone can.

Like I say they work well together. And might work very well with a turbo.

[akhilleus]

with cams i dont think moving the torque curve up any further would be a real benefit. considering then u would really need cam gears.

[perfworks]

Our prototype NA and FI cams will be out next week.

Along with AEM adjustable CAM gears.
We will post a thread about it if anyone is interested.
Sorry for the thread jack.

[twilightprotege]

can you tell us the specs nick?

[Turbo Matty P]

Our prototype NA and FI cams will be out next week.

Along with AEM adjustable CAM gears.
We will post a thread about it if anyone is interested.
Sorry for the thread jack.
THESE are the cam I'm waiting on!! Yoohoo!! Custom ground NA cams for my P5. I really need something to help shift this power curve into a more useable range. This car just wheezes above 4K rpms.

HELP ME NICK!! I BEG OF YOU!!!....and keep it under $400 for me!!

[perfworks]

can you tell us the specs nick?Andy and I are talking about releasing the specs when we are done. I really dont want to. I can only imagine what will be said with that but I have many reasons why I dont want to go that route. I would RATHER give the CAMS a stage and a hp rating after dyno results.
Example. NA cams and a proven dyno number to back up the claim.
We will see after this week.
There will be ONE stage for NA and one for FI.
They will not be mild like the Mazdaspeed aftermarket. They will actually DO something with cam gears.
I will start a thread about this once I get word from the manufacturer end of this week.

[rktktpaul]

Thank you all for posting. I now understand, and my head has stopped hurting.

(2thumbs)

[twilightprotege]

okily dokily.

i'm just mainly curious to see how close or far away you are from my custom babies

ie
272deg duration @ 0.010
226deg duration @ 0.050
0.3512" lift
both intake and exhaust

[Turbo Matty P]

Nick, why are cam gears needed if you are able to pick your specs from the start?? The lobes stay the same it just delegates when the valve opens and closes.....that's the same thing the lobe's do. I wanted to buy YOUR cams so I wouldn't have to buy the $540 cam gears. I figured they would come pre-indexed for their correct application. What kind of time frame are we looking at with them?

[twilightprotege]

cam gears are required to get the best out of any application. the reason why they are not matched straight out is because
1) that's very very difficult. if the pin on the cam is out by 1mm, that throws the opening and closing of the valve by a few degrees, and

2) most importantly - your car is not the same has the test car/my car/the next car etc. we all do individual things to our cars and they all require tuning. for example. you only have a cat-back exhaust at the moment right? well i'm about to have awr header, 2.5" mandrel bend exhaust with cat, 2 resonators and muffler. all jet coated. the characteristics of the exhaust is dramatically different from my car to your car. designing cams for your setup will not work best on mine and vice versa.

naturally i'm sure nick's cams will work well, i have no doubt with nick's experience, but there is no way he cen design a cam that is perfect for my application and perfect for the next customer. cam gears are the best way to tune the cams in to your engine.

[Turbo Matty P]

damn, that turns the (possibly) 15hp cams into a thousand dollar mod. You look at spending $450 for custom cams and $540 for cam gears. There's no way I'd pay a grand for 15hp. I can pay $350 for 65hp (n20). I was planning on spending $500ish for exhaust (header, catless dp, mp) and $400-$450 for cams. This would be right around my $1000 budget and still yield me some decent numbers. Now it's just becoming frustrating. I need to sell this junk and buy something factory fast. I've not seen HP this expensive since the Viper.

I really hope Nick can get me a good pair of cams that will just bolt on and yield decent power.

[twilightprotege]

where are you getting the $540 cam gears from? sunbelt/tri-point cam gears can be had for $290 inc shipping in a cam gear group buy

[StuttersC]

with cams i dont think moving the torque curve up any further would be a real benefit. considering then u would really need cam gears.

Yes you do. The troque falls off quickly after 4000 rpm. Being able to move the torque up a little and extend it is beneficial.

I like being able to have mid to high end torque (cams and intake manifold) and low end torque (stock motor anyway).

Getting more area under the curve is the important part, and that is what the Mazdaspeed exhaust cam, the FS-ZE intake cam and the FS-ZE intake manifold do. Plus, they are relatively mild and used in a stock application. Plus, becuase they are mild, you will see psotive effects both NA and FI...

[perfworks]

Nick, why are cam gears needed if you are able to pick your specs from the start?? The lobes stay the same it just delegates when the valve opens and closes.....that's the same thing the lobe's do. I wanted to buy YOUR cams so I wouldn't have to buy the $540 cam gears. I figured they would come pre-indexed for their correct application. What kind of time frame are we looking at with them?
Twighlight beat me too alot of what I was going to say.
Also the cam profile will work well as drop ins. I am not saying you need the cam gears. BUT it is a nice option to those who want to dial in their vehicle to the specific mods and application done to the vehicle.
One of the reasons we are only going with a single stage for both induction setups is so that even in raw form they will show a tremendous advantage over stock.
Also, AEM cam gears are no where near that price. They are about $145 - $155. We are waiting back for word on pricing this comming week.
Time frame- At the end of this comming week ( friday) we will have word on price, availability and conformation of success on the application. So that weekend I will post about the items and start a GB.

[Zeus]

Nick, I realize when a lot of development time goes into getting just the right cam numbers, so one's never egar to share the specs. But there are a few of us that have had custom grinds done, like Twilight and myself for example, and we'd be really curious.

I just pulled numbers out of my butt and had a set built up from a spare set of stock cams I had for nearly $800. They ended up a little too agressive, and after a year of running them I'd like to back off to something milder. They kick above 4k and pull strong to 7k, but below 4k they're kinda rough. Here's the specs less lift.

IN: 108 LC, 226 degrees @ .050", Open 10 BTDC, Close 36 ABDC
EX: 108 LC, 210 degrees @ .050", Open 36 BBDC, Close 6 BTDC

Are you starting with fresh billits, hardfacing, or just regrinding?

I'll be looking forward to at least hearing your results.

[twilightprotege]

what lift do you have on yours zeus?

[Turbo Matty P]

Nick, I've heard the only cam gears to not cause problems where the Tri-point units. There is some sort of cam position sensor built into the exhaust cam that has to be replicated on the new gears. If the cam gears you can provide are only $145 then I'll do it.

When you say "tremendous gains" can you give me a rough estimate? I'm not one to take anything to heart without a dyno but can I expect at least 15-20hp with at least 10whp??

Thanks a lot man. As always you're a wealth of knowledge, genorisity and patience. You shoulda been a nun.

[Zeus]

Twilight I'm slightly under your total lift more so on the exhaust, and I thought that was pushing the stock valve setup. The overall problem with my setup is that even with a 230 lb. clutch and motormounts, its jerky in town driving. Works poorly with the stock intake too. A big flat spot just under 4k. After that it pulls pretty good though. Great on the highway, with killer 80 mph top grear pull.

I didn't have any reason to dyno, so I can't say for sure but 25% gain on top is about right. Almost the same low end torque, just rougher at low throttle. Right before installing the cams I put on a header too, so I may be a poor judge of just the cams.

This car shakes like a SOB and is vibrating apart. It was such a smooth quite car before it met me.

There're several tricks to the exhaust cam position pickup. The easiest is to cut a bolt head off and tac it on the pully in the right spot. POC, All you need is el cheepo pullies like me.

[Turbo Matty P]

Zeus, have you looked into the AWR soft (automatic) motor mounts??

[akhilleus]

The reason your car is running so erratically is that u have about 16deg difference between intake and exhaust. Thats alot. The exhaust cam i will have ground will be more like 215deg duration @ .0050" and my intake is currently 210deg. I will also have the exhaust lift at close to the intake .344+. That should be sufficent for my needs. Also hopefully the exhaust cam will give me some more high end power. But i would definately be interested in the AEM gears for that price. But it is true that there is a cam position sensor that if not addressed will throw CEL.

[twilightprotege]

yeah my car shakes like a sob too!!!! hard awr engine mounts...all good :D free massage as you drive! hehehehe. actually while driving it's not bad, but inbetween idle and 1800rpm it's nasty

[StuttersC]

yeah my car shakes like a sob too!!!! hard awr engine mounts...all good :D free massage as you drive! hehehehe. actually while driving it's not bad, but inbetween idle and 1800rpm it's nasty

And to think, people spend tons of money for massagers in their cars!(friday)

[twilightprotege]

tee hee....

but i'm used to it now, i hardly notice it. but someone who hasnt been in the car thinks i've got a big block top fuel engine or something ;)

[StuttersC]

Nice...My mounts are on the way.


I can't wait for the mad tight 2.0 liter rumble!

[PhatTrax]

think i can get anywhere near the 200hp range n/a with just cams, intake, exhaust, and cam gears? i'm thinking not but worth a try.

[twilightprotege]

no, for 3 reasons.

1. your compression ratio is only 9.1:1
2. ecu
3. you would need very large cams which would only come into effect above your redline.

but having said that, i am aiming for 150whp from my engine just by plonking on a full exhaust system (plus my mods in my sig). still to come on top of that is a light weight flywheel, underdrive pulleys, a unichip (my australian ecu can support piggy back's no problem) and my secret weapon.....intake manifold modification. a couple of people on here know what i'm going to do, so if you're reading this please dont tell anyone at the moment.

my final goal - 175whp (friday)

fingers crossed!

[perfworks]

Nick, I realize when a lot of development time goes into getting just the right cam numbers, so one's never egar to share the specs. But there are a few of us that have had custom grinds done, like Twilight and myself for example, and we'd be really curious.

I just pulled numbers out of my butt and had a set built up from a spare set of stock cams I had for nearly $800. They ended up a little too agressive, and after a year of running them I'd like to back off to something milder. They kick above 4k and pull strong to 7k, but below 4k they're kinda rough. Here's the specs less lift.

IN: 108 LC, 226 degrees @ .050", Open 10 BTDC, Close 36 ABDC
EX: 108 LC, 210 degrees @ .050", Open 36 BBDC, Close 6 BTDC

Are you starting with fresh billits, hardfacing, or just regrinding?

I'll be looking forward to at least hearing your results.
The Mazda cams are available in billets. The first few sets we had made were regrinds. They will be the ones we R&D.
As far as sharing specs is concerned, we feel that we have spent a great deal of time and money into the project, for others to just jump on the wagon. We have done alot of research for both FI and NA. We feel that the cams we have spec'd out will work well alone but do recommend the adjustable AEM cam gears for specific applications. I will definately provide dyno numbers with the corrisponding stages. That is how we feel they should be judged. The same vehicle will be test fitted with the stage 2 cams and then run against the baseline results. That will give an indication as to what the enduser can expect when they install theirs to a base vehicle. From there the cam gears can be used to provide optimal tuning for the individual vehicle and modification package.

[perfworks]

Nick, I've heard the only cam gears to not cause problems where the Tri-point units. There is some sort of cam position sensor built into the exhaust cam that has to be replicated on the new gears. If the cam gears you can provide are only $145 then I'll do it.

When you say "tremendous gains" can you give me a rough estimate? I'm not one to take anything to heart without a dyno but can I expect at least 15-20hp with at least 10whp??

Thanks a lot man. As always you're a wealth of knowledge, genorisity and patience. You shoulda been a nun.The price Matty is per gear. And that will most likely be the forum price. I am waiting to hear back from the sales division so that we can make the pricing final.
As far as the pickups are concerned, they have been replicated so as to run the vehicle normally.
Matty, You know i will not give any gain estimates without dyno results to compare. What I do know is that the cams will be more aggressive for the given application and can be tuned via the gears we are marketing.
Please be patient with me as we are trying to get all this wrapped up asap.
R&D takes a little while while your trying to get a slew of other projects done to pay the bills. I will post the information very soon. Dont think that we are doing all this for thrills. This is to advance the community as a whole.

[Turbo Matty P]

I understand about not wanting to make unfounded claims (I wish everyone was like you!). I will be passing on the gears, but I'm in for the cams. Just let me know when they're available for purchase. I don't need to see a dyno from you. I'm also waiting for the wagner header, dp, and mp. I figure these will set me well on my way to 150whp.