Thinking about trading in for Type R

[MazdaSpeed0020]

Well I was at work the other day and I saw a nice 2000 Type R with 34,000 miles, intake, header, exhaust, recaro seats for 16,300. I guess he has to get rid of it or something, but anyway my financial situation is slowly going bad so I might need to get something with a little less of a payment. I pay 300+ a month for my car right now. What do you guys think about this. Granted that the type r does have 195hp plus all the mods done to it so I am guessing that it would be a nice car. But I was wondering what you all think so any comment is welcomed.

Matt

[rocketspeed]

Where is the Type R, at a dealer?

How much do you owe on your MSP? You may be upside down on your loan, which would mean your payment might not go down as much as you think.

[Captain KRM P5]

"it ain't a tight car if it ain't a Type R :D"

[MSP2746]

The Type-R is one hell of a car. They've got lots of power, great looks, and Honda reliability. If you don't mind the riceboy sterotypes and lack of ammenities, I'd say go for it.

[Captain KRM P5]

it was a limited production car stripped of the power goodies, wasn't it? sweet interior though. great seats.

[MazdaSpeed0020]

Where is the Type R, at a dealer?

How much do you owe on your MSP? You may be upside down on your loan, which would mean your payment might not go down as much as you think.

The Type R is being sold by a private party, i pretty much bought the MSP for around 20,000 plus new and have had it for seven months, I put a 2000 down payment on it. I dont know too much about the whole loan thing so I could be wrong, but If I were to pay for it over a period of 5 years, like I am now, my payments will go down. Atleast that is what I understand.

Matt

[MazdaSpeed0020]

The Type-R is one hell of a car. They've got lots of power, great looks, and Honda reliability. If you don't mind the riceboy sterotypes and lack of ammenities, I'd say go for it.

Yea it is one hell of a car. I wouldnt mind owning one of them at all, and being that its a non turbo I can expect around the same kind of power everytime I need it, unlike the MSP with the damn hesitation.

Matt

[rahrcr]

I used to be a Honda guy. Owned an Integra unit it was stolen. A buddy of mine had a supercharged Type-R. Aside from the gobs of power from the supercharger, the car was a blast to drive. A real purist race car. Very well balanced. Watch out for theives and the insurance payments.

[KyRaceFan]

it was a limited production car stripped of the power goodies, wasn't it? sweet interior though. great seats.


Type R's have power everything.
Id say go for it if you cant keep the MSP...
Keep in mind that the bolt ons like intake/header/exhaust on a Type R will net 10whp at the most. The stock systems were extremely well designed, so making gains with bolt ons is hard.
Also, type r's run 14.5-14.7 bone stock with a good driver.

I dont think anyone will call you a ricerboy for having a real R, and if they do, slap them for being an idiot, and point out they drive a civic dx automatic.
The only real ammenities it lacks is some sound deadening, cruise control, and a sunroof, which the MSP doesnt have anyways.
8400 rpms of power, and the vtec cam, good lawd. (upbum)

[funnylittlman]

Go for it :D

[boostaddict]

Just don't tell anyone where this one is or your decision will become way easier after someone else buys it.

If you've ever heard a Type-R with a AEM intake on it switch over to the high end cams you wouldn't even have to ask this question. It's worth the price just for that sound alone. My brother termed it the finger of god.

So sweet. Everything about that car is perfect except that it doesn't come with a turbo.

[mspeedpro]

do they run mid 14s? i heard they run low 15s with a great driver, might be wrong

[MazdaSpeed0020]

Just don't tell anyone where this one is or your decision will become way easier after someone else buys it.

If you've ever heard a Type-R with a AEM intake on it switch over to the high end cams you wouldn't even have to ask this question. It's worth the price just for that sound alone. My brother termed it the finger of god.

So sweet. Everything about that car is perfect except that it doesn't come with a turbo.

Hmmm sounds interesting to me, I am considering this, but I dont know how fast I could sell the MSP. I would probably do it myself because I would like a bit more out of it then the dealer would give me.

Matt

[MSP2746]

I'm fairly certain the Type R's originally didn't come with A/C standard either. I had a '98 GS-R and was thinking about getting a Type-R, but couldn't believe how "stripped" the car seemed. They seemed to start adding in things you'd expect to see in an Acura later on in production, like A/C and I *think* a moonroof.

They are unbelieveable on a road course. If Honda gets off their rump and releases an RSX-R in the states, I'm outta Mazda land for another 4 or 5 years :).

(yeah, I'm an ex-Honda junkie :) )

[funnylittlman]

that RSX-R is badass......

[MazdaSpeed0020]

Thanks for all the responses too, I expected a few people to say something negative. But i am not quite sure what I am going to do yet, keep the replies coming.

One more question, how do you post a double quote?

Thanks,
Matt

[DiscreetSpeed]

see ya (butt)

[jred321]

you can't really go wrong with a type r as long as it isn't beat to shit. but you'll need to sell your car too, so it'll be a hassle and you may end up making payments on two cars at the same time for a little bit, but an itr is a solid choice. a dealer had one around here, i was thinking about trading for it, but when i went to look and talk to people it was gone, so i've still got my mazdaspeed.

do itr's have an lsd?

[MSP2746]

Yes, they do have LSDs

[Dr.Sound]

"it ain't a tight car if it ain't a Type R :D"
"i love my honduh like i love my ganja"

[KyRaceFan]

"i love my honduh like i love my ganja"


i smoke a v8

[Captain KRM P5]

i smoke a v8

like i smoke marijuana

[KyRaceFan]

I Drive A Ls Auto!

[jsgolfer]

you wanna sell your speed to me?

[Captain KRM P5]

I Drive A Ls Auto!

better than the lowered "SS" badged 01 Corolla that i saw today :D

[MSP2746]

Okay, this thread has now officially gone to $#!+. :)

[mspeed101]

The type R runs high 14s stock. Id be careful getting a modded type R though cause most likely they were beat on. But you will be seeing high 13s low 14s with those mods the car is sick!!!

[AutoBox]

def agree..my cousin has a c5 powered civic coupe with a gsr header and civic stock exhaust and he still hit 14.8 at around 90mph.....and about the finger of god...its more like the banshee scream of hell....he pulled 1car length when he hit vtec in 3rd gear agasint my stock msp....he just put on his dc posrt c5 jdm setup with the 2.5" dump and a apexi exhaust....wonder how he will do agaisnt my turbo back and 10 psi im setting up now ?!?!? anyway beast car, alot of ppl compare the msp handling too it so u aint goin far formt he boat...but the motor is a torqueless monster, dont expect traffic passin driveablity unless u sit at vtec change over ur entire commute.....:)

[muohio]

I'm not sure what you owe currently, but putting 2k down and buying for 20k, means you owe 16k or so. The interest rate on the Type R will be higher since it is an older car and you would need a 5 year loan. In the end, you will end up the same plus the Type R is modified meaning that someone didn't drive it like a grandma for 3+ years.

[MazdaSpeed0020]

you wanna sell your speed to me?

How much would you be willing to spend?

Matt

And Muohio, you are right too, I was just figuring it out a little bit with the pops because he is better at that shit then I am and he said that the interest rate for me to get a loan would be around 5 to 6 percent and the loan would be for around 3 years. But I am going to get some hard numbers tomarrow.

Matt

[MazdaSpeed0020]

def agree..my cousin has a c5 powered civic coupe with a gsr header and civic stock exhaust and he still hit 14.8 at around 90mph.....and about the finger of god...its more like the banshee scream of hell....he pulled 1car length when he hit vtec in 3rd gear agasint my stock msp....he just put on his dc posrt c5 jdm setup with the 2.5" dump and a apexi exhaust....wonder how he will do agaisnt my turbo back and 10 psi im setting up now ?!?!? anyway beast car, alot of ppl compare the msp handling too it so u aint goin far formt he boat...but the motor is a torqueless monster, dont expect traffic passin driveablity unless u sit at vtec change over ur entire commute.....:)

You know I am very curious as to what this sound would be like. The banshee scream of hell, that sounds sweet. But yea it would be weird not having the feel of torque as I do now. But shit, having 8400 redline would be very nice.

Matt

[cochizzle]

The type R runs high 14s stock. Id be careful getting a modded type R though cause most likely they were beat on. But you will be seeing high 13s low 14s with those mods the car is sick!!!
word... a car with mods has a HIGH chance of being beat on, so you need to be careful to find out if some punk ass kid beat the shit out of it, and his parents are just buying him a new rsx. my two cents is, be weary of a fast honda, because we've all heard the horror stories of what drivers do to their cars trying to impersonate a drift video or gt3

[Jhova1012]

Type-Rs are a theft magnet, and the insurance is a bitch because of that. B18c5s sell real well, stolen or not. People will pay top dollar for a pair of type R seats, 5lug wheel conversion, front lip, ect.... Just watch your back and always park that shit inside.

[hueman]

recaros aren't in the usdm versions i believe. only jdm versions.

and hitting 13s with i/h/e on a type r? that's highly unlikely.

i've always loved honda, since my first civic (stolen)... and still consider myself a honda-naturally aspirated-guy at heart. type rs are awesome cars.. get it, you'll never regret it. think of it this way: you'll be joining the elite few in the US to have that car. :) good luck with whatever you choose.

[mp5jeff]

i personally wouldnt drop a new car for a car with 35k miles and 4 years old, that isn't going to be drastically faster. But thats just me.

[mp5jeff]

also, just to give you some real info and not any miss-information, a stock type r will run low 15's, not mid 14's like someone said. Unless you are running some slicks. With the bolt-ons it has, it will pull 14's though if you are a good driver.

[EVILSRT]

I say go for it.....type R.....*drool*

JDM hottness!!!!

[SpeedMcheen]

You can always refinance your current car with a new financial institution that has a lower APR than what you’re paying now. You can even extend the payment schedule over a longer period of time to drop your monthly payments. I'd keep the MSP though.

[AutoBox]

You know I am very curious as to what this sound would be like. The banshee scream of hell, that sounds sweet. But yea it would be weird not having the feel of torque as I do now. But shit, having 8400 redline would be very nice.

Matt


its def a sick sound...it suxed in my turbo spool sound and spit it for lunch lol haha.....if u get a change to take it to redline ull know when vtec hits :) i call it the torqueless wonder

[Speed Vision]

Dude, really think this over. The ITR is car created for pure driving pleasure, ( only when driven hard ). I wouldn't worry about the engine being too abused, just make sure that everything underneath is in good condition and nothing is bent from an accident. The motor can withstand lots of stress. For the engine, just listen for a smooth idle, if it's not idleing smooth, then it may have internal damage, but most of those ITR engines are very strong and can take LOTS of hard driving, ( not abusive driving ).

I had the chance to get one when i was shopping for my Speed. It had an extensive amount of mods and slightly higher miles, along with lots of JDM goodies. I passed it up because i needed 4 doors and because it's a fuggin THEFT MAGNET. Please be aware that this car deems lots of attention from the wrong people, and theives will get it, if they want it, ( which they will want ). They will come after this car, if parked outside, in rain, sleet, snow, day or night. If you don't beleive me, log on to Honda-Tech and browse the Type-R forum, or do a search for the last year and see how many ITR's or for that matter, modded GSR's or hatchbacks were stolen.

Good luck, and Buyer Beware........

[MSP2746]

I can't remember if the Type R had a secondary set of intake runners as well. My GS-R did, and I had an Iceman CAI and GReddy header and exhaust, and that car sounded SO damn good. It had 3 distinct stages, idle to about 4,000 RPM was nice and throaty. 4,000-7,000 after the cam switchover it really came to life, and after the secondary intake runners opened up @ ~ 7,000 it was just an unbelieveable scream. Yeah, I miss it. I've learned my lesson now, and will never get my sorry a$$ into so much debt that I've got to get rid of my MSP.

Damn I wish I had a sound clip of my GS-R! :)

[muohio]

I can't remember if the Type R had a secondary set of intake runners as well. My GS-R did, and I had an Iceman CAI and GReddy header and exhaust, and that car sounded SO damn good. It had 3 distinct stages, idle to about 4,000 RPM was nice and throaty. 4,000-7,000 after the cam switchover it really came to life, and after the secondary intake runners opened up @ ~ 7,000 it was just an unbelieveable scream. Yeah, I miss it. I've learned my lesson now, and will never get my sorry a$$ into so much debt that I've got to get rid of my MSP.

Damn I wish I had a sound clip of my GS-R! :)

My Toyota 2zz-ge powered car was very much the same way. It have VVT throughout the entire range and then at 6000 rpms would switch over to the second cam lobes and would scream. After installing an Injen intake, it was really mean especially when it switched over. It only reved up to 8350rpm but that was enough for me.

[apocman]

The Type R is being sold by a private party, i pretty much bought the MSP for around 20,000 plus new and have had it for seven months, I put a 2000 down payment on it. I dont know too much about the whole loan thing so I could be wrong, but If I were to pay for it over a period of 5 years, like I am now, my payments will go down. Atleast that is what I understand.

Matt

I actually work for a very large Auto finance company. If you paid 20k for the unit and put 2k down and had the unit for 7 months, then you are most likely upside down in the unit. seeing how if you find the right dealer you should be able to get the a new MSP for 15-16k. in addition, did you purchase any backend products i.e. extended service plan, gap insurance etc. this will add to your payoff balance.

If you decide to part with your MSP, then cancel you're backend products and have the monies go towards your balance of your loan and not towards a payment. Once you have done that, you will then want to find a unit (talking used unit here)that is well below the current Kelly Blue book loan value (fair condition whether it has 1 mile or 20k) so you can roll over your remaining balance from you're previous loan into the new loan and still get an approval.

I would suggent going new, it is much easier to hide a roll over balance from a previous loan on a new unit with alot of rebates and discounts than trying the same thing with a used. Plus banks prefer new cars over used and will be more likley to go out on a limb for a loan approval.

The way you hide a new balance on a new car is as follows, they will loan very close to MSRP on a new unit. For example, if you have a MSRP on said unit of 20k, but they dealer has 6k off in rebates/discounts and you have a roll over balance of 2k. The dealer then can roll the 2k into the new loan and still be below MSRP of the new unit with monies to spare from the 6k rebate and use the remainder of the rebate showing has a down payment. You could walk out of there with a new car not paying a down payment and released from your old unit via trade-in.

Hope this helps...

Apoc

[hueman]

^^^^ wow... that's really eye opening. but this only applies to dealers that has rebates/programs that would lower the price? i guess it all depends on how much the bank will loan.. inner-esting.

and it'd be kind of pointless if you owed the same amount on your current car as the new car, right?

[apocman]

^^^^ wow... that's really eye opening. but this only applies to dealers that has rebates/programs that would lower the price? i guess it all depends on how much the bank will loan.. inner-esting.

and it'd be kind of pointless if you owed the same amount on your current car as the new car, right?

Greetings Hueman, He should make sure the dealer knows his comfort level on what he is willing to pay a month. They will try and bump it as much as possible (trust me). Also never settle on the 1st Annual Percentage Rate (APR). YOU MUST BE WILLING TO SAY NO AND WALK AWAY AND MEAN IT!!!! I have made the dealership come down as many as 3 times on their proposed APR when getting my wife's car loan. In addition, when I purchased my MSP I made the dealership start the negoations at a $100 over invoice then I made them apply the rebates at that starting price so when everybody was paying 21k for their MSP I paid 16k or 17k out the door (i'll have to check my paperwork) . So depending on what the out the door price and what the person's APR is it can greatly reduce their payment for the same car.

Hope this helps...

Apoc

[t3ase]

Wow.. I'm surprised at everyone's non-bashing. :P I clicked on this thread wondering how many negative stupid posts I would have to delete. Wow..

Thanks for keeping it clean. :)

[Wha'Happened]

Integra Type-R's are sweet cars, but I would much rather have an MSP. especially where I live where the Integra's are a dime a dozen and nobody has an MSP for a hundred miles.I had the option on buying an ITR that was super-clean when I was shopping for my new car but I passed it up. Just my two cents.

[daperspeed]

Whats the point? I dont think a Type R is a step up performance wise from a MSP really. The MSP is as good a track car as a ITR and has a turbo that when tuned properly can give you more power gains for less coin than a ITR. Also the MSP is newer and has the added practicality of 4 doors.

[www.03msp.com]

Hey!

I owned a 2001 Type-R. See: http://www.rtekimports.com/mazda/projects.htm.

I do miss the car - though with the boost turned up a bit on our MSP, it's just as fast, better suspension, about the same weight, and for a lot less money and no worry about someone stealing it for parts.

- Brian

[MazdaSpeed0020]

I dont know, I would think that the ITR would be easier to tune and find the parts for, etc. Plus if I were to ever blow the engine wouldnt it be easier to get ahold of another and at a cheaper price? I have only owned Mazdas so I am not too sure about everything else.

The one thing about the ITR that is really kinda turning me off is the high rate of getting stolen. Being that I do kinda live in a bad town where many peoples cars get broken into and stolen. Next door neighbbors car got broken into for the second time in like 6 months, and I cant park my car inside because there is no garage. I am really surprised that nothing has happen to my car yet. But I dont know.

I will have to do some more thinking and researching about the car. I would think that with 50 more hp that the difference between the performance of the two cars would be significant. But thanks for all of the replies, keep them coming if you got anymore.

Matt

[ChopstickHero]

get the Type-R ... it's not a bad trade off from your MSP. and if you can lower your car payments because of the trade, then it works out even better. my cousin has had his Type-R for over 4 years now and he has had NO regrets. still keeps it in great condition.

[Jhova1012]

Yeah... But what he drops on the payment he may pick up on the insurance. Get an insurance qoute, I dont know for sure but I bet the insurance on the R is a bitch.

[Speed Vision]

Yeah... But what he drops on the payment he may pick up on the insurance. Get an insurance qoute, I dont know for sure but I bet the insurance on the R is a bitch.

It will def. be more for the ITR, shyt mine dropped almost 200 a year after I took my GSR off... Again, good luck.

[Jhova1012]

It will def. be more for the ITR, shyt mine dropped almost 200 a year after I took my GSR off... Again, good luck.

Damn.. How old are you?

[daperspeed]

I dont know, I would think that the ITR would be easier to tune and find the parts for, etc. Plus if I were to ever blow the engine wouldnt it be easier to get ahold of another and at a cheaper price? I have only owned Mazdas so I am not too sure about everything else.


Im sure that its easier to get a MSP engine becuz all you have to do is find a 2.0 L 99-2003 engine and there are tons more Proteges around (and totaled) then there are ITR's.

As far as tuning...turbo>Highly taxed, high revving Honda NA 4 cylinder. Its physics man...it may burst the Hondabois bubble dream world but thats a fact. Dollar for dollar you get more. Im not saying, for instance, that the MSP has a bullet proof engine.made for boost.ala the SRT-4 or EVO but still IMHO I think Mazda makes stout engines..I mean Miatas share similar design to the MSP engines and they are great boosted engines even tho they werent engineered for boost.

[Jhova1012]

Getting power out of a Honda is hard period. The engines are already running verry effecently. The B18c5 is very hard to make power on unless your going FI. If you think about it most aftermarket Honda parts (Header, Cams, Valve Train ect...) are built off of what? The B18c5. Most headers are just tweaked ITR headers, same with cams and intake manifolds.... Now strap a JRSC on an ITR and you got one hell of a track car.

[MazdaSpeed0020]

Getting power out of a Honda is hard period. The engines are already running verry effecently. The B18c5 is very hard to make power on unless your going FI. If you think about it most aftermarket Honda parts (Header, Cams, Valve Train ect...) are built off of what? The B18c5. Most headers are just tweaked ITR headers, same with cams and intake manifolds.... Now strap a JRSC on an ITR and you got one hell of a track car.

Wouldnt the supercharger give around 50+ hp to the car. So damn, that would be one fast car. But I dont know what I am going to do, still considering all the options and I do need to get a quote from my insurance company. Why would the ITR insurance be so much more though, you would think they would be around the same because they are both sporiter cars.

Matt

[ARunto]

Sigh somedays i miss my Integra...but I really like the mazdaspeed...it's nice to have some TORQUE!! The Type-R does have plenty of parts to choose from though. It's really dependant on what you are looking. Both cars are very well balanced.

[daperspeed]

To those that have driven both cars.ITR vs MSP.which has better handling? And which is a better track car...stock.

[MSP2746]

Depends on what you mean by track car. If you're looking for a drag car, the MSP would be cheaper to build fast, but stock to stock, the ITR is going to be better on road courses. The ITR handles beautifully, and won't suffer the heat soak issues the MSP does. Getting an FMIC for the MSP would more or less rid you of the heat soak, though, which in my book would put them pretty much in a dead heat on a road course.

Heat soak is my main concern with the MSP in racing applications, because it limits repeatability. It's harder to get consistant times without extended cool-down sessions.

For racing, I'd go ITR all the way...stock to stock.

[Speed Vision]

Damn.. How old are you?

LOL, I'm one of the older fellas in here, 30. I spent a lot of time in the Honda Camp. Yeah, i'm a little older, but in this Hobby/culture, there really isn't an age barrier. Shyt, some of the guys driving ITR's in the Speed World Cup are like 40ish or so. (stash)

[AamirMSP]

I currently own both cars.

http://members.cox.net/aamirserve2/whips.jpg

Type R is overall a much more performance oriented car, it doesnt suffer from torque steer as badly. The suspension feels more solid. The engine is smooth as butter and its ultra consistent and predictable. The tranmission is bar none the best I have ever shifted. The brakes are comparable on both cars. They both have terrific steering. The type R has independent double wishbone suspension while the mazda is strut based. This makes a difference in handling and the advantage is with the R. For day to day daily driving, the mazda takes the cake, its quiet, has A/C, isnt a theft magnent, and doesnt make every ricer on the road follow you. At the track and HPDE's the R will shine and show its racing heritage. The mazda is a perfect daily driver if you've owned an R and want something a bit more civilized. The stereo in the mazda is AMAZING! i dont even turn on the POS stereo in my R. Then again, everything in the R is in the name of weight savings. Also, the R has proven to be about 100x more reliable than my mazda. Ive never taken my R in for anything, absolutely nothing, and I beat the shit out of it for 30k miles.

Aamir

[funnylittlman]

^--- Aamir

Have I seen you in FFX before?

-fnny

[daperspeed]

I currently own both cars.

http://members.cox.net/aamirserve2/whips.jpg

Type R is overall a much more performance oriented car, it doesnt suffer from torque steer as badly. The suspension feels more solid. The engine is smooth as butter and its ultra consistent and predictable. The tranmission is bar none the best I have ever shifted. The brakes are comparable on both cars. They both have terrific steering. The type R has independent double wishbone suspension while the mazda is strut based. This makes a difference in handling and the advantage is with the R. For day to day daily driving, the mazda takes the cake, its quiet, has A/C, isnt a theft magnent, and doesnt make every ricer on the road follow you. At the track and HPDE's the R will shine and show its racing heritage. The mazda is a perfect daily driver if you've owned an R and want something a bit more civilized. The stereo in the mazda is AMAZING! i dont even turn on the POS stereo in my R. Then again, everything in the R is in the name of weight savings. Also, the R has proven to be about 100x more reliable than my mazda. Ive never taken my R in for anything, absolutely nothing, and I beat the shit out of it for 30k miles.

Aamir

Oh ok well then I guess you're lucky to have driven both. :) BUT..why is it that SCC(of of whom editors also owns a ITR) said the MSP was the best FWD thet have ever driven? Also on this board some members have commented that some people feel the MSP is a better handler. And statistically isnt the MSP slightly ahead of the Type R...ie slalom?

Im not trying to flame Im just curious as to what exactly is it that you feel makes it better than a MSP handling wise because a few have stated the MSP was even better..dunno..
Also double wishbone doesnt necessarily mean a better suspension setup then a strut based setup.

[mspeed101]

I think the Type R suspension is a bit better then the msp but thats just my opinion ive driven both cars. By the way AamirMSP thats a nice type R!!

[AamirMSP]

Oh ok well then I guess you're lucky to have driven both. :) BUT..why is it that SCC(of of whom editors also owns a ITR) said the MSP was the best FWD thet have ever driven? Also on this board some members have commented that some people feel the MSP is a better handler. And statistically isnt the MSP slightly ahead of the Type R...ie slalom?



I read the same article you did, but I don't really trust anything that editors of tuning magazines write. Call me a skeptic. The torque steer that is so clearly present in the Mazdaspeed is there but very controlled in the R. This makes a big difference when accelerating through a turn. The R feels more balanced. Secondly, the double wishbone suspension of the R gives it a more stable feel when going over left side or right side only bumps such as gators on a track. The MSP might have turned better slalom numbers in that test, but I think numbers are not the only measure, for me feel is a significant factor since it leads to confidence. Also, you wont be hearing any funny sounds from the Type R suspension, no faulty bushings etc. The suspesion is also valved much more aggressively at 246lbs/in front and rear. The MSP is something around 145/117. I do believe the MSP has a better chassis though, its tighter and more solid. All in all, for the true enthusiast who can give up comfort and amenities, the R is the way to go with out a shadow of a doubt. For someone who needs an everyday car that can do track duty and is quite comfortable for everyday use and not a worrisome car to have, the MSP beats the R hands down. Also MSP packs much more package wise for the price. The R sold for $25-26k new and I picked up my MSP for 17,4 out the door. Within this price, I got a kick ass stereo, aluminum pedals, limited slip, turbo, great brakes, body kit, etc etc. The MSP is a tremendous value if you bought it during the rebate period. You will find your insurance to be cheaper with the MSP. Type R's get stolen like you would not believe. Its actually a horrible pain in the ass to own it if your in a decently sized city. Cant take it ANYWHERE.