Twisted tubing

[Spooled]

Does anyone know if someone makes twisted grove intake tubing? I would love to have a hard-pipe from the intercooler to the intake manifold with spiral groves in it, like this:

http://eighthundredpoundgorilla.com/msp/tube.jpg

This would make the air pack in more efficiently.

[Stormtrooper77]

I really don't think that that will benefit you any. It will kind of work like the Tornado thing...and that is crap.

[Stormtrooper77]

Forgot to answer the question. I don't know where you would get that.

[yashooa]

Maybe he wants dizzy air?

[yashooa]

I know it's rifled like a gun barrel that way the air gets shot straight into the cylinder like a bullet. HI HO SILVER AWAAAY!

[tekkie]

I think his intentions is just for it to look cool, which it would but I think you will be hard pressed to find somewhere to get that, that would be a real bitch to bend :-/

[SmoothCriminal]

you know swirls and eddies like those created by the tubing you pictured screw up air flow and have the opposite effect of optimization

[Black Majik MSP]

I think "rifleing (sp?)" your hard pipes would only be beneficial if they didn't have any bends. The idea works in a gun because the barrel is straight, but if you add bends to that, you will most likely get a detrimental result like SmoothCriminal said.

[Spooled]

Actually, I don't care what it looks like. I'm not a show car type of a person.

The ridges actually accelerate the air and smooth it out contrary to popular belief. Remeber those things (like the Tornado) that you could get to screw between two 2-liter bottles and create a tornado with water? If you didn't have that, the water would just gulp. The Tornado thing that you are talking about actually DOES work, but the product is a bad implementation of the theory. it is too shot and abrupt. Having smooth rifling down a long pipe would keep the air moving fast, and would make the tranistion into the manifold smoother.

[Spooled]

By the way, rifling on a gun works in a different way. The rifling in a gun barrel is to spin the bullet and create a gyroscopic effect, therefore keeping it from tumbling and helping to fly straight and flat.

[Gbourdon]

I bet that stuff cant be mandrel bent. You would have to put put elbows that were smooth and then straight pipes that looked like that and thus dimishing benefit. I guess maybe i donno

[Micah]

I'm not so sure about the airflow idea. IMHO the extra edges would only serve to create a disturbance in the airflow. Not to mention the fact that eventually the air is going the throttle body intake which is round anyway.

Ok, Mister Wizard time.

Wanna test it - here's your project. Hit up a craft store/hardware store, you are going to need some things.

3 feet of 3" diameter Clear plastic tubing, preferably 1/8th inch thick.

Heat gun

duct tape

shop vac with inlet and outlet

true styrofoam ( not the biodegradable )

lighter

one of those paper filter masks

cheap paper towel

4 popsicle sticks ( always a must for mister wizard )
---------

cut off a 6" portion of the tubing, that represents your throttle body, cut some small holes to place the 4 popsicle sticks vertically through the tube, crumple up some paper towel and stuff it enough that you can't see through but air will still flow. The popsicle sticks will keep the papertowel wad in place.

take the heat gun and mold what is left of the tubing into the nice swirled shape you are proposing.

duct tape one end of the tube to the papertowel stuffed thing you made in the first step, the other end to the hose of the shop vac, set to blow through. Now put on your mask turn on the shop vac and burn that styrofoam and let the fumes get sucked through - styrofoam burns a thick sticky black toxic smoke. You should be able to see it in the tube. Do this in small increments and keep checking the paper towel for stains. This will show you where the air is going.

Ugh, what a worthless project.

[Micah]

Originally posted by Spooled
Actually, I don't care what it looks like. I'm not a show car type of a person.

The ridges actually accelerate the air and smooth it out contrary to popular belief. Remeber those things (like the Tornado) that you could get to screw between two 2-liter bottles and create a tornado with water? If you didn't have that, the water would just gulp. The Tornado thing that you are talking about actually DOES work, but the product is a bad implementation of the theory. it is too shot and abrupt. Having smooth rifling down a long pipe would keep the air moving fast, and would make the tranistion into the manifold smoother.

The reason that tornado thing works is because it creates a funnel of air which shoots through the middle - thus allowing equal pressure - which enables the flow between bottles.

Surely you don't want a stream of air being sucked through the middle back out.

What I am getting at is that your idea is flawed, Those soda bottles are both under only normal atmospheric pressure. In a turbo application you are looking at compressed air, which I would think has differint flow characteristics being that pressure always works to equalize. High Pressure air will flow to low pressure areas.

Again, I'm no expert - this is all just off the top of my head while I am troubleshooting with HP on the phone at work.

[Stormtrooper77]

The reference you make to the water bottle thing is kind of a misconception. Yes, it looks very convincing that adding a swirl makes the water pour smoother. But if you take a straw and insert it into the spout and then pour the water without spiralling, I'd be willing to bet that it pours out faster than the spiral. The reason the water doesn't pour out fast or smooth is that it is getting no air. With the spiral, it creates a small opening in the spout, hence air, hence a smoother flow. But it gets back to the fact that the quickest way to get from point a to point b is a straight line. Creating spirals adds another direction to air flow so it is actually flowing slower than a tube without spirals. Plus, if this were all true, would someone have come out with a product yet? That's just my 2 cents.

[Micah]

echo.... echo.... echo...

lol

[Matthew]

im with mica. even if it had the fastest air flow on the planet, like a NASA space shuttle intake (joke), the throttle body would still be smooth and therefore make everything you did prior worthless. it would be like hooking up an injen CAI to a 10mm TB

[Micah]

Woo Hoo - Matthew is with me.

I'm going to go change into something less.... uhm.... hairy?

[Matthew]

(lol)

[SmoothCriminal]

well your example about the tornado water thing isnt really apt to this situation because the reason the swirl action helps is because there are 2 viscosity fluids in the system, water and air. here its just air, so yeah.. you'd get an unoptimized flow. but your point is well taken, I'll try it with a straw or something. also the volume of a tube with those ridge things in it would be greater than a cylindrical tube of equal radius

[Matthew]

also the volume of a tube with those ridge things in it would be greater than a cylindrical tube of equal radius


but still flow into a smaller TB..then you can upgrade your TB but then you need stand alone engine management to tell it the ECU you got more air coming in, etc etc. so not only would you spend an enormous amount on the intake itself, then have to buy the TB, then have to buy engine management, youll be well over $1000 bucks for something thats not going to get you that much gain. maybe an extra 5whp or so assuming it all works properly and isnt even detrimental to your cause.

youve come up with some interesting ideas (like the twin turbo), but they just arent feasible for someone here. if you got that kind of money for minimal gains, you might have just bought something faster. assuming any of the ideas work.

im not trying to be rude in any way, just stating the facts.

[Micah]

Originally posted by SmoothCriminal
well your example about the tornado water thing isnt really apt to this situation because the reason the swirl action helps is because there are 2 viscosity fluids in the system, water and air. here its just air, so yeah.. you'd get an unoptimized flow. but your point is well taken, I'll try it with a straw or something. also the volume of a tube with those ridge things in it would be greater than a cylindrical tube of equal radius

I think you have that backwards. Those spiraled ridges are taking away from the available volume inside the tube.

[Spooled]

Originally posted by Matthew
but still flow into a smaller TB..then you can upgrade your TB but then you need stand alone engine management to tell it the ECU you got more air coming in, etc etc. so not only would you spend an enormous amount on the intake itself, then have to buy the TB, then have to buy engine management, youll be well over $1000 bucks for something thats not going to get you that much gain. maybe an extra 5whp or so assuming it all works properly and isnt even detrimental to your cause.

youve come up with some interesting ideas (like the twin turbo), but they just arent feasible for someone here. if you got that kind of money for minimal gains, you might have just bought something faster. assuming any of the ideas work.

im not trying to be rude in any way, just stating the facts.

These ideas are more to spark conversation and non-linear thinking rather than actual products. I know that people say that if it were better, someone would be selling it already, but if that were true, we wouldn't have the rotary engine. There is always a better way to do something, and I just like to bring that up every once in a while. Thanks for all the great input, though! I like to see what people have to say about different ideas.

[Micah]

Yeah, I'll brainstorm on anything.

puff puff give

[SirJaime]

Hit An Pass.... Man !

[Matthew]

good ideas though, keep em coming. just as a side note, however, put topics like this in the performance section, and topics like the twin turbo idea in the forced induction section...you will get a broader band of people to help you out with your brainstorming.

[Gbourdon]

Originally posted by Micah
Yeah, I'll brainstorm on anything.

puff puff give
(werd)

[yashooa]

Originally posted by Micah
Yeah, I'll brainstorm on anything.

puff puff give

Holy crap! I participated in a "Brain Storm"
I feel so dirty now kinda like I was tricked into a thought orgy or something.
Yes we Protegeians are liken unto a Cognitive Whirlwind whooshing in fresh exiciting ideas...ok maybe not but hey it beats being a brain fart right?

In fact we could whoosh down a spiral tunnel of thought.

[Micah]

Originally posted by matt7184
http://www.intel.com/education/unitplans/physics/lessonplans/physics_website_02.htm

They have bent barrel guns too to shoot around corners too :p

And this twisted piping isnt even like lands and grooves rifling on most gun barrels. The closest thing I can even think of is hexagonal rifling kind of looks like that twisted pipe.

Congrats Matt on making yourself look foolish.

Now go back and read the posts in this thread, and realize that we've been presenting arguments of why it won't work, and how to test it.

Hell, just go back and read my posts.

[Micah]

Stormtrooper77
I really don't think that that will benefit you any. It will kind of work like the Tornado thing...and that is crap.



yashooa
Maybe he wants dizzy air?
I know it's rifled like a gun barrel that way the air gets shot straight into the cylinder like a bullet. HI HO SILVER AWAAAY!
*note the sarcasm

tekkie
I think his intentions is just for it to look cool, which it would but I think you will be hard pressed to find somewhere to get that, that would be a real bitch to bend :-/


SmoothCriminal
you know swirls and eddies like those created by the tubing you pictured screw up air flow and have the opposite effect of optimization

I will stop going on with the quotes, but if you read through the thread, there were plenty of ideas and arguments posted. How did you miss that?

[Scott]

All other bickering aside, if air flow is what you are worried about, there are much more logical (and productive) ways to increase airflow than making twisted piping.

Besides, as previously stated, any bends in the twisted pipes are going to entirely throw off any benefitial air flow you had. And I'd like to see someone mandrel bend one of those things. You'd likely end up with some nasty creases.

[Equinox]

if you have a air after market conical filter or a turbo, your air is swirled already, and anymore twisting of the pipe will do nothign for you. To create that pipe tho it would have to be made out of aluminum and extruded.

[Mach 3.5 Turbo]

Fluid mechanics time. The reason that hard pipes flow better (one of them anyway) is that they have a smooth, round surface inside of them. ROUND. A circle is the most efficient shape for air/fluid flow. It allows the most volume to surface area possible. The drag force is directly related to the surface area being affected. I could give you an equation if you want it, showing the direct relationship. That's why square ducts are used in homes and circular ducts are used in commercial buildings. They can afford the "good shat," whereas we choose the cheap route. Anyway, if you add a bunch of squiggles to the edge, you flow the same volume but add a bunch of surface area. This increases the drag force, and slows the air down. Not good.

You guys might argue that spiraling the air causes good fuel atomization, like the tornado thing claims. The fuel doesn't mix with the air until it's WAY past the intake piping, after passing through the throttle body, the plenum, the intake runners, and the vavles into the cyclinder. The tornado thing is crap for this reason. I could spin the whole intake tract with an electric motor, but it makes no difference inside the manifold or inside the cylinders.

So, this kind of piping does NOTHIN for the air flow except slow it down. That, and I doubt you could bend it without crushing the hell out of it. And, good luck getting a silicone fitting to seal around the wiggles. My $0.02

(If you're wondering, I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've had a lot of fluid mechanics classes. Loved em all.)

[Micah]

and for the record, I never went to college.

[Micah]

nor had any desire to

[SOSPEED]

Well its not bad idea.. Nothings a bad idea until it’s tested and proved. But if something like this really worked, I don’t think it would help out a turbo charged engine. This would be more for a NA engine. With a turbo charged engine, once it goes into boost the air is churning up and being forced into the engine so much you wouldn’t need something that would help the air fuel to mix better or to make the speed of the air increase.. Just my 2 cents

[TooleBox]

The spiral air thing will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for our cars.

The whole spiral-air-flow thing lost it's effect the day that carbeurators went out the window.

our fuel is directly injected, thus smooth, consistant airflow is optimal.

If we were carbeurated, the spiralized air would help spread the fuel evenly thus being more efficient.

spiralized air to us? worthless!

[SmoothCriminal]

Originally posted by Mach 3.5 Turbo
Fluid mechanics time. The reason that hard pipes flow better (one of them anyway) is that they have a smooth, round surface inside of them. ROUND. A circle is the most efficient shape for air/fluid flow. It allows the most volume to surface area possible. The drag force is directly related to the surface area being affected. I could give you an equation if you want it, showing the direct relationship. That's why square ducts are used in homes and circular ducts are used in commercial buildings. They can afford the "good shat," whereas we choose the cheap route. Anyway, if you add a bunch of squiggles to the edge, you flow the same volume but add a bunch of surface area. This increases the drag force, and slows the air down. Not good.

You guys might argue that spiraling the air causes good fuel atomization, like the tornado thing claims. The fuel doesn't mix with the air until it's WAY past the intake piping, after passing through the throttle body, the plenum, the intake runners, and the vavles into the cyclinder. The tornado thing is crap for this reason. I could spin the whole intake tract with an electric motor, but it makes no difference inside the manifold or inside the cylinders.

So, this kind of piping does NOTHIN for the air flow except slow it down. That, and I doubt you could bend it without crushing the hell out of it. And, good luck getting a silicone fitting to seal around the wiggles. My $0.02

(If you're wondering, I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've had a lot of fluid mechanics classes. Loved em all.)

ahhh he speaka da troof, he brought up something I forgot from APC (calc based physics my junior year in high school), he's also indirectly stated the big advantage of having mandrel bent tubing in case anyone is wondering.. I guess I've strayed from newtonian physics in my 2 years since that class, but you can't blame a guy for bein turned on by space/time physics :-p

[Spooled]

I think half of you are posting before reading the first post. I am talking about the tube between the intercooler and the intake manifold, not the intake tubing from the filter. It's obvious that it would lose any effect once it hits the turbo. And the point that I was trying to make with the spirals wasn't for ait speed, it was for efficiently making the transition into the intake manifold. If you know anything about racing, then you know that you can take a turn faster by starting on the outside, crossing the inside at the middle, and exiting on the outside. Now imagine pushing air straight into manifold; it will spread out to the individual valves faster if it enters at an angle rather than being deflected off the back of the manifold.

Also, why do the ridges have to take away from the volume. Why can't they add to the volume? Thought that would be a simple solution...

Please don't just jump on the flame train because you don't understand or even if you think it won't work. Post your opinions and experiences and add to a POSITIVE discussion. I have avoided posting a lot of times because it seems that the threads always get taken over by people who are affraid to think.

Last thing: I'm not sure where that rotary comment came from. I'm sure most people will agree that the rotary is a wonderful step in combustion engines. I hate to burst your bubble, but piston engines are not the be-all end-all of car powerplants. They haven't been around that long and I guarentee your grand kids will be driving something that no one has thought of yet...

[Micah]

Spooled
Also, why do the ridges have to take away from the volume. Why can't they add to the volume? Thought that would be a simple solution...


Just take a string, and trace the inside volume of a curve, now add your ridges. You should figure it out pretty quick.

[TooleBox]

Spooled,

like i said in my last response, this sort of piping would do absolutely nothing for our cars. With EFI, the fuel is injected to each cylinder as the air is pumped in through the TB. Smooth, Fast, and undisturbed airflow is prime. This sorta pipe, and the afformentioned surface area of the inside of this pipe mentioned by a couple people, would be counterproductive in our cars.

Now if we were carburated and could somehow rig a section of this piping just before the carb... assuming the pipe did what it looks like it would do (swirl the air), it would have a nice smooth distribution of A/F running through the carb.

[Spooled]

Originally posted by Micah
Just take a string, and trace the inside volume of a curve, now add your ridges. You should figure it out pretty quick.

Obviously you didn't understand what I said. Instead of taking a 4" tube and pushing ridges inward, imagine taking a 4.25" tube and pushing the ridges in 0.0125". The inside diameter is still 4" at the smallest point, but you are adding volume outside of that 4" diameter.

[Spooled]

Originally posted by matt7184
Spooled,
it does not matter which pipe you are talking about, since when you use swirled pipes it will reduce the inside diameter (thus volume) or you will have to make the whole pipe larger, inside and outside diameters. Your trying to compare hitting an apex on a curve to the fluid dynamics of your engine, but they are two different things. As everyone is stating after your intercooler and before your intake manifold there is a throttle body butterfly which will disturb the airflow, plus more routes in the intake manifold and into the valves which will disturb the airflow.

I see what you are saying by trying to lessen the resistance in that portion of tubing, but the swirls will basically in simple terms twist the air and cause it to not travel straight and hit the other air molecules or other side of the tubing and all of this creates air disturbances and turbulence. Remember, air travels faster over smooth surfaces. Also, you are creating a greater surface area inside the tubes with the ridges and swirls thing which will cause more drag (very little but it will still be there) If you are still not convinced this will not work then you might as well try it if you have the time and money. And grab a few Chem 1 books (I believe we did some airflow, resistance in there) and a physics 1 book and then if you are up for it a few books in aerodynamics and fluid mechanics lol


You earlier brought up rotary engines, here's some links about the advantages/disadvantages of them:

http://speedarticles.com/auto_racing_article-25.html
http://www.e-scoot.com/2001/dea/WankelRotaryEngine.html
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/mcgrail/stu0102/HP3/
http://www.millville.org/Workshops_f/kess_mech/tools/1tools/rce.html

Thanks for the thoughts. I am not saying that this idea will work for sure, I mainly wanted to get opinions. As I had mentioned, I never intended on reducing the diameter of the pipe with the swirls, but to increase it by projecting the ridges out. That really doesn't matter anyway, I guess, since we are talking about the movement of the air. Just to show you why I brought up the idea about curve apexes, here is a very quick sketch.

http://eighthundredpoundgorilla.com/msp/spiralair.jpg

[Micah]

Mr Wizard it, then you'll have an idea