Head Work and Custom Cams

[twilightprotege]

Well boys and girls....the ported head and custom cams are in my car.

the install took me 6 hours taking my time. obviously wanted to make sure it was done right. my hands are cut like i've been playing with razor blades and my back is killing me, but i dont care. timing was a lot easier to set up this time because i've done it twice before so it only took my 2 goes to get it right.

before i go further, sorry wasnt able to take pictures, my fiancee's digi cam is screwed and my mate was at work so i couldnt use his.

now, how the head looked. FAAARRRRKKKKK!!!! the intake runners look much bigger and same with the intake manifold (had it port matched). everything looks brand new and very nice. it was easy to see the overlap before i put the head on as well. i cant remember how many degreed overlap was put into the cams.

flow figures - the printer at the head shop was screwing up and printing different head data even though mine was selected. appartnely they are fixing it up and posting it out to me today (tuesday aussie time).

anyway, initial impressions. rough idle with lope, although i'm guessing a good 80% of that is due to the AWR rear engine mount being installed.

driving. well first of all i need to raise the rev limiter now ;) hehehehe i only took it a couple of times to redline (6500rpm for the aussie car) and as soon as the VICS opens it takes off!!!!! it hits the rev limiter so damn hard!!!!!! i was going to try leaving the VICS shut in a week or so to see how that feels overall.

just normal driving around feels no different to before. i'm certain there is a little loss in low end power, but not hugely noticeable.

i'll be running the car in for another 500k's then i'll take it and get the thing dyno'd. i can definately feel the difference so i'll be hoping for 15-20whp increase. if i get that i'll be happy because the exhaust is so restrictive in stock form.

as soon as i get flow and dyno figures i'll post here....keep an eye out!

[curt2go]

Very cool. Get some miles on it today and get it to the dyno.. TTY

[twilightprotege]

if only i didnt have to work i'd be driving all day!!!!

[curt2go]

So you did not notice any gains under what rpm.. What rpms do you feel the most kick at?? TTY

[twilightprotege]

oh yeah, rpm details (doh)

under 3500rpm the car is a little down on power. from 3500rpm it starts to get a move along. on the aussie version VICS doesnt kick until about 5500rpm...once it closes up it really flys!

[curt2go]

VICS ??? What is that?? TTY

[twilightprotege]

that's the system that makes the intake runners shorter at high rpm to generate more power. variable intake charge system or something like that...all protege's with the 2.0L FS-DE engine have it

[curt2go]

Ahhh I see. So they close the runners at low rpms to get more torque and open them up at higher rpms to get more horsepower.. Cool !!.. TTY

When do you plan on doing the exhaust.. What will you be doing to the exhaust?

[Mike R]

Sweet, keep us posted on the dyno #'s! Hope ya heal up soon too.....

[twilightprotege]

other way around. they are open at low rpm to make like a chamber which in theory makes the runners longer. at high rpm it closes to make the runners shorter.

exhaust - probably wont be doing anything as i plan on going turbo in the future

[twilightprotege]

mike - atleast i get "special" attention from my fiancee ;)

[mp3moose]

Hell yeah!!!! N/A all the way!!
How rough is the idle....I already have problems due to motor mounts and pistons so can't take much more.

Moose

[twilightprotege]

well i've only just installed the rear engine mount so i dont have a before comparison, but going like that wouldnt be much rougher. would be the same in normal driving, just a little rougher at idle because of the cam lope

[PaulMP3]

the rear mount will make your car shake like a mofo while idleing... i hate it.

to bad you dont have pics.. cant wait to see the dyno

[mp3moose]

Ditto on that dyno comment.

Moose

[twilightprotege]

yep dyno will be on the way on hopefully 1st or 2nd week of november (will give the engine plenty of time to settle and adjust a/f and crap)

[glyph]

sounds like it's time for a 500 mile road trip! Thanks for sharing all this stuff with us, twilight

[twilightprotege]

yay road trip!!!! if only i had time

[redrims]

very interesting....just subscribing to stay posted

[glyph]

gotta do 1500 miles this week going back to SC from OK

[flat_black]

Grrr. =) I want pictures! Ahh, no matter, though. Hopefully once the ECU adjusts, it'll show a nice gain for you. =) If you're losing all that power down low, probably time for a lightweight flywheel so you can get to your revs faster! But that'd be my suggestion.

[twilightprotege]

yeah i'm sort of having a tug of war between what i need to do next. at the moment a haltech ecu is winning....need to take even more advantage of the new found breathing ability!!!!!

hell i dunno....too many options, not enough money!

[StuttersC]

Cool, nice to see that it works well for you...

[flat_black]

Yeah, you may be able to gain back the lost low end with an ECU, so try that first, then the flywheel and clutch, probably. =)

[PaulMP3]

i think the haltech is your best bet, no one on here that is NA has used a piggyback to my knowledge. Even with a totally stock engine there has to be some more power by messing with the fuel maps.

[shinzen]

hey twilight- just cause I am lazy- could post the specifics of what you had done? How much they took out in the port and polish- how agressive with the cams on degree lift and duration- I think I may go that route here shortly and with the gains you are just noticing- may be worth having done....

[markmurray77]

Excellent work, hopefully the numbers come up soon. Glad to hear it all went smoothly

[akhilleus]

The idle is rough because your cams are sooo aggressive...

[RAAZ227]

So the throttle response has improved?? Can you tell that it is really going to get up and go?

[Installshield 2]

Excellent work Andy...Did you ever use your custom cam's before the head/manifold work?

and remember the power you already gained can probably easily be doubled once you get your Haltech...

[twilightprotege]

flat_black - that's my plans at the moment...just as long as my clutch doesnt wear out too quickly

paulmp3 - that's what i'm hoping. a haltech ecu will help enourmously. esp considering when i hit redline with the engine it wants to keep going. i have to remember to change gears now when before i changed gears when the power started to go down

shinzen - they took a fair bit out of the head. it was visibily noticeable. i dont have specifics but you can tell it was a lot. the cams - quite agressive. something like (i dont have the figures here with me - i'm at work) but it was like 272deg duration @ 0.006", 226deg @ 0.050" and i think 0.33" or 0.36" of lift. i the lift would be slightly more because when i had the head ported i had them put new higher shims in so the valve clearance was 0.009" instead of the stock 0.010"

raaz227 - feels great above 4000rpm!!!! really takes off!!!! i think the work would be more benefitial with a rev limit of 7500-8000rpm...i'll get there one day

install - nah, never got to put the cams in before the head work :(


all - one thing that's been bothering me is the head bolts. can someone read through the workshop manual and see if they read it the same way as me? i read the bolts should be tightened to so many kg-m which i did, but on the next page it almost looks like they should be tightened a further 180 degrees! i thought that was really strange because there is no way to guarantee the torque each bolt is tightened to with that, so i only tightened them a further 45 degrees from the initial torque specs....can anyone help???

[twilightprotege]

boys and girls - flow figures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! here we go..

air temp 23 deg celcius, 30.04bar pressure, 36.8cc chamber volume, correction factor 1.008

intake :

@ 0.400 lift (i dont have that much lift, but it's between 0.35 and 0.4) - 209.3 CFM

exhaust :

@ 0.400 lift (same issue as above) - 150.7CFM, but they said that's 78.5%....i dunno what that means, but if that was 100% it would be 192.0CFM :D

happy??? FARK YES!!!!!

they have a little side note (very interesting)....EST HP...GIMME GIMME GIMME i hear you say....

@ 0.350" of lift, 216 SF/HP (dunno what SF stands for)

happy??? see above comment ;)

i know i wont be getting that sorta HP without exhaust and stand alone ECU mods, but very happy....if only they did a before porting flow test

[Mike R]

Twilight, the % is the percentage of exhaust flow/intake flow. It's the volumetric efficiency. I personally woulda thought that it would be closer to 90%. But it's not horrible. I would think near 100% volumetric efficiency would be an easy task with a decent designed DOHC head. Heck CHEVY did it with thier 2.3L Quad Four(190HP) years ago.

Let's see some dyno #'s! :D

[twilightprotege]

yeah i thought 78.6% sounded low, but even with 90%, that's still 172.5CFM

both much more than stock head flow stats

[Mike R]

Yep very true. Gotta wonder what else could be done to the exhaust side though...

But, it'll take someone with time and money to get a head to a good machinist and have them experiment. Soo, it won't be me!

I'd like to see what "the old one" at Endyn could do for us.....

[twilightprotege]

the only way you'll get even more flow outta the exhaust side is by getting bigger valves. in original form they are noticable smaller than the intake side...probably 3mm difference in diameter i'd guess...but there isnt much room to go too big...anyway, you dont want the exhaust to be as efficient as the intake because you'll actually loose power. you want the exhaust to travel out quicker than the air coming in (esp in NA engines due to valve overlap)...you'll be just pumping unburnt fuel out the exhuast if the exhaust side works too well

[shinzen]

SWEET twilight- I want it done to mine- betcha pickup more than a couple of hp- how much AU did you have to spend?

[Mike R]

Yeah, that's true. All motors the exhaust is smaller, because it's under pressure going out, intake you need the easier flow.

Wonder what's so good about 100% volumetric efficiency then???
(not too smart with engines, I can put them together and understand how they work..but the real nitty gritty stuff I'm ???)

[twilightprotege]

the head work cost me $900aud...plus new gaskets (that was $500aud - only genuine mazda available here which kinda SUCKED BIG TIME!!!!)

what's a definition of volumetric efficiency? is it the %age of exhuast flow compaired to intake flow? so in stock form with 183CFM intake and 164CFM exhuast that gives close to 90% efficiency? you'd think porting the exhaust would also increase the efficiency as well???? hell i dunno

[shinzen]

So for about $700 usd I can have this done to my es... hmm... I cant wait until the dyno's are posted, I will probably drop the idea of anything else and just get this done to start with

[Mike R]

Yeah, that's the definition....(dunno) about the rest, maybe?

[twilightprotege]

i will arrange dyno as soon as physically possible to let all know how it goes.

i'll give the head place a call and find out how they worked out that exhaust % of 78.6....and how that related to the exhaust CFM measured of 150.7

[twilightprotege]

just spoke to the head shop. volumetric efficiency cannot be workout without the engine, power figures etc....takes a lot to work out.

[RAAZ227]

dyno.....dyno.....dyno......:D :D :D

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Mike R
Yeah, that's true. All motors the exhaust is smaller, because it's under pressure going out, intake you need the easier flow.

Wonder what's so good about 100% volumetric efficiency then???
(not too smart with engines, I can put them together and understand how they work..but the real nitty gritty stuff I'm ???)
The definition of volumetric efficiency can be different from person to person, mostly in at what point of the engine's rotation (or where the piston is) that it is measure ...this is the way I have been told...

100% volumetric efficiency refers to the pressure inside the combustion chamber at Bottom Dead center (the measurement usually requires every single CC of cylinder displacement to be accurate)with the valves closed (In Twilight's case, this doesn't happen) being identical to ambient air pressure outside the car...With your cams Andy, I don't think it could be accurately done...do to your overlap and big hairy swingin' balled duration...

The percentage itself is simply the percentage of the ambient air pressure inside the clyinders at the time mentioned above (BDC with every valve closed in that cylinder)...so an engine that has 80% volumetric efficiency has 80% of the outside air pressure inside that cylinder at that particular time...

and Mike...100% volumetric effieciency rarely happens on production NA vehicles...In this case no single modification to increase aif flow without forcing it (in other words, without forced induction) will yeild gains, simply becuase the air pressure in the cylinders is the same as outside the engine (an engine's vacuum will only suck air in until identical pressure is reached on both sides, after that nothing happens until it is pushed or forced in)...I don't even think Chevy knows what volumetric efficiency is, they employed Toyota to build more efficient engines (volumetricly) for use in their prism and Vibe vehicles. Mostly becuase they didn't want to spend the money or time to build them on their own, or IMO their engineers simply do not know how to do it...The expense of the parts involved to get to 100% is ridiculous, let alone the research and development...And also remember that ambient air pressure is always changing...an engine could be 100% efficient in a thunderstorm, and not be on a high pressure sunny day...

From what I remember, the closest production NA engine to 100% is Ferrari's 3.6L 40valve V-8, which is used in the 360 spider...it has 3 intake valves per cylinder (2 exhuast), big ass variable cams, and excellent breathing capabities...I vaguely remember it being in the 90 percentile in some conditions, and only in certain sections of the rev range...

[twilightprotege]

gee you're up late install!

so the 150.7CFM they said the exhaust would be right? sounds sorta strange if that's the case because thewrench said that sunbelt tested a stock head and got 164CFM on the exhaust...that's a pretty big decrease

[Installshield 2]

I get very confused very quickly when flow ratings are said as volumetric efficiency...to my understanding volumetric effiency involves every piece of the intake side of the engine, and the clyinders themselves...78% or whatever they gave you makes no sense to me...Are they saying that the head can only flow 78% of the ambient air pressure?

This is where numbers by themselves can make things very confusing...If an identical way of testing the stock head by sunbelt, and your head by whom ever did the work was used...it appears you lost flow...but I doubt that is the case given that you said the engine feels more powerful....

Yeah I am up too late...big tests on Thursday, and needed a break from studying...:mad:

[twilightprotege]

well even compairing the numbers on the intake side, i've gained like 26CFM in flow...i cant see how i'd loose on the exhaust side if they've been able to gain so much on the intake side

i'd really like to know what machine sunbelt use for their flow tests.

when they said 78.6%, that's the averaged amount of flow the exhaust does in comparison to the intake side. they tested flow at 0.050", 0.1, 0.15, 0.2, 0.25, 0.3, 0.35 and max lift (about 0.36)

arhhhh study...that explains it all....

[Installshield 2]

ok that makes more sense...

yeah and don't worry about the exhuast side as much...among the things already mentioned, the exhuast gasses are actually sucked out of the chambers by the moving pulses already in the exhuast...So they get a lot of extra help compared to the intake side...

[twilightprotege]

yeah the numbers i'm most interested in was the intake side...after all it's the amountta air you get in that makes the HP.

cant wait to see the dyno results when i get to it. i'm going to do a bit of side of the road testing in the next few days by leaving the VICS shut instead of it being variable...i'll see how that feels

[Installshield 2]

yep sounds good...

by the way, this is off topic but I didnt' feel like digging up the old thread...

I have started to drive the car a little harder since the cam install...a few spikes up around redline....I have to admit, I am much more impressed than I thought I would be...The engine feels much better above 5500rpm...I can easily take the engine to 6700rpm and it feels like it pulls harder the higher I get...I don't notice any power differences really, but can definately tell the engine enjoys being at that those speeds more...before the power noticably dropped off from 5700rpm or so and above. Now the power builds all the way through redline...I can't wait to finish the bolt-ons, get the ECU, and mess with compression/head/intake manifold...

Thanks for all your help with the install Andrew:D

[twilightprotege]

yeah no worries, anytime! glad it's worked out well for you.

sounds like you've gotta be like me now....remember to change gears because it keeps on pulling hard to redline...but no more redline from me for a while....need to settle the engine in some more.

have you had a dyno run yet to get a baseline?

[Installshield 2]

No dyno yet...The closest to me is in Harrisbury PA I think, a good 2 hour drive...plus around my area it is hellishly expensive..I checked that shop's website and it was around $125 per pull!!! When I asked if that was for 5 or even 3 pulls he was like "are you nuts?"...

so I will probably wait and buy a bunch of bolt-ons...not install them right away, save up a little more cash and get it dyno'd...Wit the current cams I hope to be in the 105-7whp neighborhood (most stock north American P5's dyno in the 100whp) with the meat of that power peaking very close to redline...I for some reason buy parts, and then wait a really long time to install them...I don't really know why...but I like to put a bunch of different parts on at once, then the power differences are much more noticable...I had the cams for over a year, and didn't install them until now....And I still wanted to wait until just before the entire turbo setup was complete...but some nut ball at school paid me $1500 for a used T-25 turbo, a Spearco FMIC, and a custom turbo manifold that wasn't even lined up right yet for an FS (it probably never would have been...It was a shit piece custom made with an FS flange...It looked like shit, and will probably break like shit after 100miles)...I told the dude "I AM COMPLETELY RIPPING YOU OFF!!", and he boldy replied with "I DON'T CARE, IT IS MY PARENT'S MONEY"...he didn't even own a protege, he had some old civic and wanted still wanted the manifold???

So I guess I am going to 100% stay NA with my current engine...and then maybe build a strong Turbo FS in my spare time and spare money...

I like the idea that no one has really used a full stand alone and remaind completely NA for the street yet...I will just play around with a Link2 in the near future and high compression and see what I can squeeze out...And with your research and results it appears that the envolope is being thoroughly pushed...:D

[twilightprotege]

dang that's heaps for a dyno run!!! when we get a group of people together, i get dyno runs (they do two runs) for $25aud - that's like $17.50usd!!!!

yeah i'm certainly thinking haltech is in my near future...just need cash!!!!

[Mike R]

Ah, OK thanks for the info installshield. One thing though...chevy had nothing to do with the vibe or prizm except to rebadge and make them uglier. Kinda the same with the sprint also, just a suzuki with a bow tie. They have built some awesome motors though...LS1/6 is pretty sweet. Too bad the packaging is crap.

How far are you from Westminster? The local place EIP is 50 bucks for 2 runs.

[slenser]

Subscribing to this thread. Give details on the cam, when possible.

Thanks,
Sam

[shinzen]

Hey twilight- what are the prices on the haltec down there? Also, have you looked at the microtech? heaps cheaper

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by shinzen
Hey twilight- what are the prices on the haltec down there? Also, have you looked at the microtech? heaps cheaper

Haltech E6X's and the entry level Microtech systems are just over $1000 I think....The Link systems from New Zealand are by far the cheapest (the base package starts at about $600, and the unit similar to the E6X is about $900)...and have much easier to use software....

Andrew let me know if you plan on only going with Haltech...I can pm all the info and engine details I have so far on making the LinkPlus 2 standalone a plug and play system....but there are no plug and play options with the Haltechs...

www.Link-electro-usa.com .. Try that website for a lot of info on it, what you get for the price pretty much can't be beat...

[shinzen]

hey install- i thought we ran mass airflow, and it says on their site that they use speed density(honda) will the system still work for us?

[twilightprotege]

i havent looked into prices for the haltech yet, but i might have a chat to the link guys in NZ - it's only just over a little sea ;) i'm sure they'll have a office here

the only reason i was thinking haltech is because they are very well known, and their factory is within 30 minutes drive of my place...cant get much better than that!

and for those wanting to know, these are my cam specs

lift (intake and exhaust) 0.351"

duration @
.010" 273deg
.020" 250deg
.050" 226deg
.100" 199deg
.200" 147deg
.300" 83deg

[PROTEGE_ES]

have you dynoed ur car yet? what's the news on this?

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by shinzen
hey install- i thought we ran mass airflow, and it says on their site that they use speed density(honda) will the system still work for us?

yeah it will still work...That is one of the things though that makes this impossible to be "completely" plug and play...but the MAP sensor is in the Link's main unit...and you simply run a vaccuum line of some sort from the intake manifold (after the TB) to the link...I am still getting details on that, and I haven't poked around our intake manifold yet to see if we can just use a T-connector to tap into a current line...90% of the time that is possible, but in a worse case to get the right vacuum sent to the sensor you need to tap a hole and use a "nipple" to slip a hose over...After that you can completely remove the MAF sensor from the intake system...

Sorry guys, School is unleashing hell at the moment and it is difficult to find the spare time to get all these little things figured out...The triggering, with help of Nick, is more or less figured out...and actually Neil from link electro contacted a source that works with Haltech for a good bit of that info (They have a lot more R&D with FS engine's compared to Link)...Next in line is figuring the "dwell", if any Mazda (or ford), incorporated into the stock coil packs and igniting system...He promises that if the stock ones get cracked it can be said and done, pretty much plug and play (aside from the MAP issue) for less than one grand...:D

[twilightprotege]

still no dyno run yet - am trying for this saturday...but i'm not even 40% sure on that yet

[twilightprotege]

okily dokily - dyno run is booked in for this coming saturday 8th november at 10am :D

[shinzen]

can't wait to see the results twilight! hey install, any updates for us on that system?

[igdrasil]

i think you will have some erratic dyno curves because of no engine management.

but, lets see how it does.

[green MP3]

I am glad that someone else did this and get use to red line really fast. In my case it happens after 4500 rpms and it's because of the open loop mode in the ECU not really for the Vtcs. i know cause i have tryied it with and W/o them.
You will experience alot of fun moments from now on.You ECU does have to adjust and that will happen after about 300 miles although it will be a bit dissapointing since it can't no longer control your engine well.i have no idle problems but it's cause i got stock cams. This is the beggining of a long road of tuning believe me but the power that can be obtain is endless with the right fuel management and spark.I'll give you a tip. Get Beru's
Silverstone plugs,They are awesome,no resistor and made by the germans of pure silver.you will notice the difference.here they cost $7.99 each and are worth every penny.i have been working for awhile already on solutions to really get the full advantage of the porting and polishing with alot of testing and re-testing and so far i have improved alot but need more trouble shooting and stuff.when i get it all right i will let you in my deep secrets!!!;)
i am doing 2 more heads right now and 2 more manis,one will be just like mine with nice oversize valves on the intake not the exhaust,by the way do not worry about the exhaust just the intake as manny have suggest already on other posts.i will do my own dyno soon and will get alot of numbers with different set-ups. let's compare notes in the future.

Anyway enjoy it dude the zoom zoom way.....


best luck

Green

[ProtegePoe]

Oooooo can't wait for the dyno

[shinzen]

wanna trade? I have a stock head for you--

[twilightprotege]

i certainly dont think it'll be massive numbers because of how poor the stock exhaust is...but we'll see how i go :D

[twilightprotege]

i'm off to see the dyno........the wonderful dyno of oz :D

(yes it's saturday here already....7:46am to be precise)

[mp3moose]

Have fun!!!!!!

[TheMAN]

:confused:


Originally posted by green MP3
I am glad that someone else did this and get use to red line really fast. In my case it happens after 4500 rpms and it's because of the open loop mode in the ECU not really for the Vtcs. i know cause i have tryied it with and W/o them.
You will experience alot of fun moments from now on.You ECU does have to adjust and that will happen after about 300 miles although it will be a bit dissapointing since it can't no longer control your engine well.i have no idle problems but it's cause i got stock cams. This is the beggining of a long road of tuning believe me but the power that can be obtain is endless with the right fuel management and spark.I'll give you a tip. Get Beru's
Silverstone plugs,They are awesome,no resistor and made by the germans of pure silver.you will notice the difference.here they cost $7.99 each and are worth every penny.i have been working for awhile already on solutions to really get the full advantage of the porting and polishing with alot of testing and re-testing and so far i have improved alot but need more trouble shooting and stuff.when i get it all right i will let you in my deep secrets!!!;)
i am doing 2 more heads right now and 2 more manis,one will be just like mine with nice oversize valves on the intake not the exhaust,by the way do not worry about the exhaust just the intake as manny have suggest already on other posts.i will do my own dyno soon and will get alot of numbers with different set-ups. let's compare notes in the future.

Anyway enjoy it dude the zoom zoom way.....


best luck

Green

[green MP3]

what were you trying to show me???

Green

[igdrasil]

Hey, I dont think raising the rev limit will give any kind of power.
over 6krpms in this engine is a waste of time, even on turbo.
You will send your rods south.

[TheMAN]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative9.jpg

[green MP3]

listen man, i know that you have knowledge about cars and engines, i do not know if you can do it in practice like i can but i really don't care cause my purpose here is not to talk bad about other people but rather learn from them and share what i can about what i know.
Like now i just learn something about you that does not impress me nor helps me in any way. What i already know about engines and stuff would be enough for alot of mechanics to just settle and stop there, not me and the reason is cause i am not as ignorant as you to believe that i know it all. I AM NOT TRYING TO CREATE A WAR BETWEEN YOU AND ME. i am 32 years old and don't have time for bullshit but if you ever want to just talk about cars and be mature about it i am all ears.

Green

[twilightprotege]

well...now back to our regular programming....

a few comments first.....well i'm a bit disappointed, but i certainly understand why. i was expecting more of an increase, but then again this was really an untried combo...

the first thing the guy at the performance shop said to me was "i think you need a new ecu to raise the rev limit"

and the second was "getting adjustable cam gears should help you a real lot"

the reason he said this???? max power is on redline (6500rpm).

the first run he did he hit 113.5whp....right on redline. the second run (which i have a print out of) he said he jumped off right before redline - got 111.3whp

power and torque are less now all the way up to about 5400rpm (which is about where my VICS kicks in)

so summing up...happy? not really, but i can see the head and cams combo has a fark load of potential...just need to rev higher. glad i have done the work? still yes....this work is all in preparation for down the track...it was never meant to be the perfect combo for what i have now

[thewrench]

Damn Andrew that kinda sucks. If for no other reason than not completely proving Darin wrong. :) I was hoping you'd get at least 120-130 before the standalone. Oh wait, you still need exhaust too. Maybe that'll help a bunch with all that air you've got going in. Oh wel, I'm just rambling. Hopefully things will improve when you get farther along in the project. I'll keep an eye on it.

JT

[twilightprotege]

yeah probably the weakest link at the moment is the exhaust...but once that's freed up the rev limit is way way way too low.

i'll get adjustable cam gears next, then haltech ecu.

[mp3moose]

Wow, kind of dissapointing. But cam gears are where its at. I would say thats half your problem. I don't know how much you can rev past 6500. Its just a lot of rotating mass.
Moose

[twilightprotege]

yeah i have so many things to do to get the full benefit outta the head and cam work. cam gears would be first on the list. try and bring the peak hp down into the current rev range.

next would be the haltech ecu.

maybe after that getting the crank knife edged and lightened and get new rods (pistons can stay untill i go turbo)

damn need money!!!!

[glyph]

at least you are getting somewhere now. Been a long wait for you, I imagine. Too bad you didn't see more out of it at this point.

[curt2go]

I think part of the problem(not seeing the horspower) is that you have done things in the wrong order. Not a very bad thing though. :) . BUT normaly you would do the exhaust starting with the header first. this will give you gains right away. How much we really don't know. Then the rest of the exhaust. then once that end is freed up you can do the intake, head and cams. That way when you make chnages on the inside of the motor you will see the best results. Having a restrictive exhaust now is not only hampering the mods you have done but you will also gain some on top of that.. So we really don't know how well all the headwork and cams did until the exhaust is done. Just cause everything breaths good on the inside if you rerstrict it at the exhaust all is lost.. wll not all but lots.. Are you going to be doing the exhaust soon. Or will you just get the turbo then do the exhaust??? TTY

[curt2go]

Then get the haltec to bring it all together. Dialing in the cams with adjustable gears I don't think would do you any good until you finish the exhaust cause you won't be able to dial them in efectively. Your whole hp and torque range will be affected by the exhaust as well. I don't think you should have to rev it past 6500. You are just putting too much stress on the engine at that point.. Sorry fo rambling here guys.... The problem is breathing... :) TTY

[flat_black]

I had a feeling this was going to be the cast when you got the new head on... Flowing the heck out of the head is really something that fully built cars do, only so they can safely flow at higher-than-redline points, too. But another bet would be the substandard ECU programming. =/

Hopefully some good will come of these new upgrades! Any idea how much the cam gears'll set you back?

[p5sundevil]

im thinkin with cam gears you should squeeze another 6-10hp out of those cams easy, especially with the lift and duration you have i would doubt making more than 10 with the gears, maybe 15+. mostly since the cam gears will help flow through the head as much as the cams themselves if im thinkin of this right.

then tha haltech will be the icing on the cake for you.

[Installshield 2]

Andy, save every penny you can and get the standalone...You will be amazed by the gains...and actually your gains are right around what I would guess without tuning....I don't know exactly what kind of total gains you could get after the tuning, but your could easily beat 130whp I would bet...then deal with the exhuast system...With cam gears you could probably dial the powerband down a thousand rpm or so..In which case you would be peaking within the current rev range (rather than just starting to make big gains on redline)...That would better justify your cams with the current rev range...But with the ECU you could set a soft rev limit at around 7300 rpm, where you could see very very significant power...

Also, did the dyno guy take the car over redline at all? Was he trying to get close to the fuel cut, or just taking it to the marked 6500?

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by green MP3
listen man, i know that you have knowledge about cars and engines, i do not know if you can do it in practice like i can but i really don't care cause my purpose here is not to talk bad about other people but rather learn from them and share what i can about what i know.
Like now i just learn something about you that does not impress me nor helps me in any way. What i already know about engines and stuff would be enough for alot of mechanics to just settle and stop there, not me and the reason is cause i am not as ignorant as you to believe that i know it all. I AM NOT TRYING TO CREATE A WAR BETWEEN YOU AND ME. i am 32 years old and don't have time for bullshit but if you ever want to just talk about cars and be mature about it i am all ears.

Green

Easy dude...I don't think Ed was directing the bruce Willis thing at you...The last post on the 5th page was what he was pointing it at I think...And when ED quoted your other post a few days ago, it was simply that it was difficult to understand a little...never take Ed's shit personally, he is always there to nail someone's mistake...And he will do it to anyone though, but overall it is needed to keep ignorance at bay (read that post on the last page)

[twilightprotege]

curt - yeah i've done everything in this order for 1 main reason. i'm going turbo down the track. i'm not going to be putting money at stuff i'm going to have to change when i go turbo. and yes that is a bit restrictive. i may get an awr header and full exhaust before i go turbo, but that all depends on finance i guess...

flat - well the only cam gears available are through tri-point. i think they are $250-300 or something like that. havent really investigated into them yet

install - i'm going to aim for early next year get cam gears, then by the end of next year have a standalone. the problem is i want to de-loom the engine bay while i'm at it. so getting a standalone will be cheap, but it's everything else that'll cost a fair bit. but at the moment that's where i'm heading. cam gears then haltech.

all - i'll have a friend of mine scan in the dyno graph tomorrow and i'll post it here to show you what the graph looks like

[akhilleus]

omg..its so obvious why his gains were so low...If he had a decent exhaust maybe he could take advantage of the increased flow. also i really think that u had the cams ground too aggressively. either way though i bet those things could be done easily. What u should do is put the old cams back in and dyno it and see what happens.

[DooMer_MP3]

I appreciate TheMAN's information quite a bit. But sometimes I think he needs a good ass-kicking to put him in his place.

Chris

[twilightprotege]

fyi everyone - if i were to put an exhaust straight on the car now, i'd loose even more power low end and gain even more right at and above redline. at this stage without cam gears or a standalone ecu, the stock exhaust is actually helping me get usuable power

[p5sundevil]

the first cat is what is saving you alot of your low end torque i would think as that is the first and biggest restriction, but the stock exhaust will also help to keep some back pressure obviously.

When I get my cam ground the specs will prob be a couple notches short of what you got, just a little more than Jspec/MS specs i hope. I still have alot of research to do on those final numbers though.

and I need to find someone local to do the grind.

[igdrasil]

installshield....

it does NOT sucks....all you need is some tunning, im sure you can get 30more HP out of it.
Im surprised you had 113whp at redline, that means theres a lot more power unleashed in the rest of the powerband and in redline.

Get some exhaust work, go standalone if you can, adjustable sprokets, etc.

remember the proteges in the scca have 260HP thanks to the motec and some internals.

[igdrasil]

and I think you will need higher compression pistons

[akhilleus]

yeah but he already has hi-comp pistons...9.7 fp pistons. And honestly u wont lose really any backpressure. First the initial cat has already been gutted. ALso i have seen dyno #'s where a simple exhaust and intake netted more whp than cams alone with no exhaust. If the air that is coming in isnt discharged properly u wont see the full benefits of the port and polish and cams. I really really suggest that u put an exhaust on the car. Also i think its odd that your power only comes in at the high end of the rpm spectrum. I have much less done to my car and i have seen gains from 2.5k and up. And in my experience with my setup i saw minimal loss of power and torque in the low end and the high end 3k + just exploded. Really i think the standalone is unneccessary and i am sayin this so u can save yourself 1000+ aussie dollars. Trust me the exhaust is definately the next step. a 2.25 or 2.5 cat back would probably gain you 20+whp with your current setup.....also the car will rev much more quickly...currently you probably have alot fo turbulence int he gutted cat since the exhaust cant funnelt eh gasses out fast enough. peace

[KYREDP5]

Originally posted by akhilleus
ALso i have seen dyno #'s where a simple exhaust and intake netted more whp than cams alone with no exhaust.

Yup. :D My axle back exhaust will be in wedsday, hopefully I will get to dyno shortly after my car gets out of the body shop.

[chooch]

Never took the intake or head off.... BUT... had trouble with valve train noise and CEL. No solution for CEL and valve train noise solution would be expensive but would probably be cheaper than head/intake work.

http://mazdamp3.com/vbb230/showthread.php?threadid=9590

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by igdrasil
installshield....

it does NOT sucks....all you need is some tunning, im sure you can get 30more HP out of it.
Im surprised you had 113whp at redline, that means theres a lot more power unleashed in the rest of the powerband and in redline.

Get some exhaust work, go standalone if you can, adjustable sprokets, etc.

remember the proteges in the scca have 260HP thanks to the motec and some internals.

I don't really understand what you mean...On your post on page five, you said there is no more power to gain with higher revs? Now you are saying that there is more power within his current power band?...And also I never said that his power sucks, I expected the gains he got with the stock ECU...

His power band currently starts right at redline, from what it sounds...With the cam gears he can dial the cams in for the powerband to begin earlier...so in short have a much higher peak gain within the current redline...there is definately power potential with higher revs (hp is a function of torque and rpm), so as long as the tuning is right to promote a higher redline he will make more power...and with proper tuning he will gain power across the entire rev band...

[twilightprotege]

cam gears are definately the next step. if i were to put an exhaust system on right now, i'd loose even more power down low and only gain once again at redline. if i can move the power band down by 1000rpm, i'll be peaking a lot earlier and should get a fair bit more power.

and i need to lean out the engine too - that's why a standalone will be after the cam gears

[mp5jeff]

in your 1st expectance post you wanted 15-20whp from this and you saw about 10whp, so its not too far off from what you were expecting, once you get the cam gears and stand alone id like to see your numbers then..

[twilightprotege]

yeah i'm not far away from what i wanted... just needs tuning

[thewrench]

An old thread on pclub that might be of a little interest. I don't what this ever led to. It sure piqued my interest at the time.

http://www.protegeclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24465

JT

[twilightprotege]

all i can say is "i need cam gears and a day on a dyno!!!!!!"

[Installshield 2]

yeah man, I forgot about that thread but remember reading it...He was gaining over 10whp with the cam gears (the throttle body was just bored a few mm and had a new butterfly from what I remember...probably didn't make a noticable difference with that mild engine build up, same goes for the drop in filter)...and remember that was with north american cams...You could see much more gains with your J-spec one alone...I don't even want to start on what it "could" be with your current setup...Do it and let us know...!

[green MP3]

hey dude..
Do not be disappointed,even though i did say in a past post that you were gonna be with your ecu.
what you have done to your car is great but you will not see any huge gains until the ecu,air/fuel ratio, fuel pressure and ignition system is modified. Once you do that it will be a whole different game. You will gain alot and i mean alot of power. i am going as you are with a turbo so it will be even better for this type of set up. Just wanned to tell you to keep the faith. I felt just like you when i did it but now that is running much better i am happy and with more stregh to keep tuning. i will make my car a 320 hp at the wheels, that is a promise and as i get better tunings with dyno proven evidence, i will spill the beans and let you in.
We did it backwards as someone mentioned but i kinda knew that,only that now we can get any mod and make our cars fast and eventually furious.
it won't be that expensive to tuned, you'll see.

regards
Green

[flat_black]

Yeah, man. =) You're the single hope for all of us N/A freaks! Hehee. Even if you are planning on a turbo. It's great to see someone taking the low road for once, to see what can be done with this engine. =)

[twilightprotege]

thanks green.

and all - i hope once i can get the cam gears sorted you'll all start thinking beyond the square - go for bigger cams than j spec and porting the head etc....

[giskard]

I'm late to this thread but here are some comments. This stuff I gleaned from "four stroke performance tuning" by A G Bell and from playing with "Dyno 2000" engine simulator.

1) cams with lots of overlap need tube headers to work properly. Overlap allows the exhaust gas to scavenge and suck in intake charge, but only if the exhaust gases in the exhaust manifold runners have momentum (aka velocity). I see you have a de-catted stock exh manifold, that can't be good for scavenging, because they have very short runners. Not only do the gases have to have momentum, the runners have to be the right diameter and length so as to provide the right "pulse tuning frequency" and provide a boost to your torque at around 5000 rpm (for a street car) The header tuning works hand in hand with your cam overlap period. (which is tunable with cam gears)

A large overlap tends to make for a strong midrange. A strong topend comes from a late closing intake valve. What are your valve specs? (IN, EX, opening and closing angles at 0.050" lift)

2) In theory, ideal cam specs are generated by software by examining your head's flow numbers.

3) The P5 motor is limited in power by the valve diameters. They are the same as the 1.8 Miata motor, for example, and they can only do about the same peak power. The valve sizes are limited by the bore - the BP and FS motors have the same bore. The extra displacement of the P5 motor (from the stroke) means that power peak happens at a lower RPM, and the midrange of the P5 motor can be fatter.

Headwork can make the valves "look bigger" and so you can get more power.

I see you got headwork - do you have the flow numbers? Good headwork yields a 4-8% increase in flow at all lifts. Gains at low to medium lift is more important than at high lift (>6mm) because the valves spend more time partially open than fully open. With stock cams, good headwork seems to help torque at all RPMs.

Do you know what he did with the headwork? Did he just do a general cleanup and 3 angle valve job (always works to some extent), or did he just hog out the ports (doesn't work), or did he do more drastic things like raise the port floor and knife-edge the dividers (real pros do this but requires a flow bench and experience to know what works)

Since your gains are all at > 5500 rpm, your cam specs are all wrong - a good street cam upgrade should yield more torque from about 3000 RPM and up. Indeed it may just be a matter of cam phasing. Aftermarket cams should always be degreed and setup with cam gears.

A big exhaust will not tend to reduce low RPM torque. You should measure your exhaust backpressure. Remove the O2 sensor, find a bolt that screws in partway, drill a hole through said bolt, force fit about 8 inches of copper tube, fit some vacuum hose over the end of the copper tube, string it to the cockpit, and connect it to a boost gauge. If you have over 3 psi of backpressure at high RPM WOT, you will probably see noticeable gains from a big exhaust. You will also probably find that the factory cat is the biggest restriction (if you compare the backpressure before and after the main cat).

Cheers.

[twilightprotege]

ok....a reply!

1) yep. stock exhaust sucks...but i dont want to play with it because i'm getting a turbo down the track...well i might put an AWR header on and hi-flow cat and cat back, but not sure. probably only a 15% likelyhood of this happening.

my cam specs (both intake and exhaust) :
gross lift 0.3512"
cam durations @
.010 - 272.5deg
.020 - 250.2deg
.050 - 225.9deg
.100 - 199.4deg
.200 - 147.4deg
.300 - 82.7deg

anything more you need or would like to know?

2) very true. but to some extent, the head can be matched to the cam specs. this is what the head shop did to mine

3) yes i got the head ported. here are the specs :
intake CFM @ (lift)
.050 34.6
.100 70.9
.150 105.0
.200 136.5
.250 162.9
.300 182.3
.350 198.9
max 209.3

exhaust CFM @ (lift)
.050 28.6
.100 60.2
.150 82.4
.200 114.5
.250 131.2
.300 140.4
.350 146.8
max 150.7

anything more you need or would like to know there? the work they did was slightly more than a general clean up, knife edge the dividers and 3 angle valve job. port match intake manifold ofcourse

cams were designed in theory to give a lot of valve opening for when i go turbo. cam overlap does need to be altered now and for turbo ofcourse

what's your experience from or is that text book knowledge?

[akhilleus]

Why did u do all this work if u r going turbo..? Its seems to be self defeating. You should have gotten the turbo first and then worked the engine....especially if u only had the head ported and polished/cams...if u were gonna do engine work with a turbo @ high psi you should have gotten forged components instead.

[slenser]

I personally think he is doing things just fine. He will have much better results with the turbo, when he gets it, because of all the work he has done to the engine. I don't know what kind of boost he plans on running, but from what I have seen, these engines do fine without upgrading the internals for quite some time.

If you want him to build his engine a certain way, I'm sure he will be more than happy to accept your contributions to improve it the way you feel fit. If not, let him do what he wants, how he wants and in the timeframe he wants to do it in.

DAMN, everybody's a critic!

Twilight, cudos on the work you have done.

Sam

[akhilleus]

Hey dont get all jumpy...I thought that initially twilight had focused on an NA buildup....thats why i wondered why he is adding the turbo. Either way though until he gets that engine tuned...turbo or not...it wont be what it can be

[giskard]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
ok....a reply!

1) .. i'm getting a turbo down the track...well i might put an AWR header on and hi-flow cat and cat back, but not sure....
Well if you go turbo the big exhaust will benefit you even more. So you can go big exhaust now, as long as it's not too loud for you.


my cam specs (both intake and exhaust) :...
Do you know what the stock cams are? It's useful to know where you are against a known starting point.

I noticed that your intake and exhaust durations are the same. If the stock cams have more exhaust duration than intake, it may be because the head likes it that way (i.e. the exhaust valves/ports are a bit restrictive), and so it's generally a good idea to keep the same relationship when upgrading cams. Also, increased lift is only useful if your headwork has improved flow at high lifts and if your new cams have significantly more duration than the stock cams near its max lift. Increased lift, more aggressive ramps, and an increased revlimit, all require upgraded valve springs.

For turbo apps, stock-like cams generally give the best street performance. If anything, perhaps slightly longer exhaust duration and reduced overlap would help.

Did you tell the cam guy you're planning to go turbo?


2) very true. but to some extent, the head can be matched to the cam specs. this is what the head shop did to mine
Eh? The head characteristics are pretty fixed and the cams are full custom.. therefore the cams should be tailored to the head, don't you think?


3) yes i got the head ported. here are the specs : ...
Again do you have the before figures? Flow benches vary in absolute numbers, so the comparison should be % changes vs. stock.

the work they did was slightly more than a general clean up, knife edge the dividers and 3 angle valve job.
Did they back-cut the valves? That nearly gives as much improvement as the 3 -angle work on the valve seats.

cams were designed in theory to give a lot of valve opening for when i go turbo.
Do you mean duration or lift?


cam overlap does need to be altered now and for turbo ofcourse

Ditto.

what's your experience from or is that text book knowledge?
textbook, helping more than one friend with their NA and FI buildups, and DIY headwork on my turbo miata and my old college car, and watching others' buildups on miata.net.

One guy LOST torque at all RPMs from a cam swap. He too had no gears, but he'll be tuning new gears in a few days.

Another guy had impressive NA gains - but he did EVERYTHING.

[twilightprotege]

akhilleus - i did all this work because i wanted more power now, but then everything is set for turbo....and i wont need to touch the engine anymore (well you get the idea). i definately didnt want to get forged internals now because the stock compression ratio on my engine is 9.7:1 (aussie version). i want 8.8:1 compression when i go turbo, so doing that now is beyond useless

slenser - thanks man. encouragement is always accepted :D . fyi - i plan on running around 14-18psi.

giskard (replys are in order) - on my car the stock intake was jspec and the usual exhaust. i have the specs around, but cant put my hand on them at the moment. they are on this site hundreds of times.
the reason why my intake and exhaust cam specs are the same is two fold. first one is simplicity and cost. second is the main reason - because the exhaust side of the head flows less than the intake, it was most benefitial for a turbo setup to get the exhaust out as quickly as possible (quicker turbo spool). in stock form the exhaust cam is smaller than the intake cam. and like you said, for turbo apps, slightly longer exhaust duration works great for street apps.
heads can be modified to suit your needs....yes cams can be taylored a lot easier, but those are the cam specs i really wanted.
original head flow - dont have figures for my head, the head shop didnt do a test (tossers)
did not get the valves cut back
cams give much more duration than stock

all - i know i have a lot of work to do. cam gears are absolutely next (plus a day of dyno tuning)

[akhilleus]

Ok...first i hope i dont offend by what i am gonna say...but what r u smokin.! U want to run that much psi w/o getting forged rods...good luck. Second how are u gonna lower your compression by almost 1 comp point when u have cams that are aggressive with a port and polish and a 9.7:1 comp pistons. U would have to run pistons that are pretty low...and or shorten your stroke. The only reason I am saying this is that with just a small amount of work you could have a badass NA car...which i thought was what u were doin...dont sell us NA people out, we are counting on your success.

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by akhilleus
Ok...first i hope i dont offend by what i am gonna say...but what r u smokin.! U want to run that much psi w/o getting forged rods...good luck. Second how are u gonna lower your compression by almost 1 comp point when u have cams that are aggressive with a port and polish and a 9.7:1 comp pistons. U would have to run pistons that are pretty low...and or shorten your stroke. The only reason I am saying this is that with just a small amount of work you could have a badass NA car...which i thought was what u were doin...dont sell us NA people out, we are counting on your success.

14psi with excellent tuning is a possiblity on the stock internals, and remember 14-18psi on a 8.8:1 compression ratio is a little easier on the internals than 9.1:1 on the same boost...Without a standalone it is a pipedream...

He can pretty much tune the cams with cam gears to lessen the overlap if needed, so they are pretty flexible...

Also, his turbo work won't come for a while, and he said he may get a full exhuast replacement in the future...I just want to see his gains with the Haltech and cam gears...

[akhilleus]

yeah but how is he gonna lower his compression to 8.8:1 when he is @ 9.7:1 ....mazdaspeed pistons?

[Installshield 2]

uh...custom I am assuming...Mazdaspeed pistons would raise it?

[twilightprotege]

sorry guys, mis-understanding. i didnt want to get forged internals now because i will be getting them for turbo down the track.

i will be staying NA for atleast the next 1.5-2 years. in that time i'll be getting cam gears (getting them in the GB now), haltech ecu, intake manifold made up, flywheel, knife edge the crank....and basically make the engine unbreakable for when i go turbo. i want to be able to just put it almost straight on and off i go.

so yes, i guess i'll be the NA testing factory until then

[p5sundevil]

ill be your double check then here in the states =P

since my plans are damn similar to that,

have a ractive 4-1 header on order since for the price and the fact I also plan on staying N/A for 1-1.5 yrs it is worth it. catback system which I know I will have to change out for a bigger one but again, the deal is worth the time I will be staying N/A

I also want to do custom cams and cam gears but I havent decided on the headwork/valvework or manifold polishing/flowing.

I have a possible hookup to get an extra cylinder head cheap and if I dont sell it I can use that.

eventually would like to build around to 140-160whp N/A, maybe try that new spool stage 2.4 stand alone FMU, see if I can get maps made for N/a and then just get it reprogrammed when I go F/I.

total with boost Id like to hit 200-225whp.

but as usually if and when I get there I will probably want more.

forged rods at the end of the N/a buildup and forged lower comp pistons for the boost.

[twilightprotege]

having an extra head will be handy i'm sure! you could really go all out on it!

[MPNick]

With all the work some have done how can you make any real gains without tuning the ECU. Stand alones systems are alot of work and alot of money to tune right.

With our MPI Tuner you can control eveything you need, spark, fuel, VTCS, plus alot more. You do not need to rewire the whole car plus no CELs.

We have been looking to do some testing on a big cam head setup. Please let me know if anyone is near NJ

Thanks again


Later...........Nick

[perfworks]

Originally posted by MPNick
With all the work some have done how can you make any real gains without tuning the ECU. Stand alones systems are alot of work and alot of money to tune right.

With our MPI Tuner you can control eveything you need, spark, fuel, VTCS, plus alot more. You do not need to rewire the whole car plus no CELs.

We have been looking to do some testing on a big cam head setup. Please let me know if anyone is near NJ

Thanks again


Later...........Nick
please quit the bs

[perfworks]

YOU KNOW WHAT LET ME EDIT THAT
You can keep up that BS all you want. You want a war you got it bud.
Get an authorized vending permit here and then we will see
I have had enough of your lies.

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
With all the work some have done how can you make any real gains without tuning the ECU. Stand alones systems are alot of work and alot of money to tune right.

With our MPI Tuner you can control eveything you need, spark, fuel, VTCS, plus alot more. You do not need to rewire the whole car plus no CELs.

We have been looking to do some testing on a big cam head setup. Please let me know if anyone is near NJ

Thanks again


Later...........Nick


Please answer my question in the other thread....

[akhilleus]

what the fuck is goin on. Is the MPi tuner for real or is it bullshit and why. Has it been used already?

[twilightprotege]

yeah what is with that?

[mp5jeff]

seeing how he dodges people questions, im going to lean towards its b.s.

[Installshield 2]

It is some kind of ECU upgrade. but the credible info goes down hill from there. I am not even clear on what category it falls under. I believe it is a parallel system that runs along side the Factory ECU, but gains control of the timing and fuel. The claims range from high load closed loop with a stock O2 sensor, to full controll of the stock injectors + control of bigger ones. but most of the claims do not get adequately back up. I will dig up some threads where it gets some what explained, but don't hope for some awesomely cool detailed information on how exactly it works...you will find some "happy customers", but the ones I have seen can't explain it any better either...IMO the system (or providers for that matter) are shady at best...

[twilightprotege]

yep, standalone sound much better to me. praise haltech! hehe

[ahb11m]

gotta love the haltech, does it all, and all out of melbourne??(i think) australia!!

andrew, don't your insurance company hate you already??

[MPNick]

Originally posted by akhilleus
what the f--k is goin on. Is the MPi tuner for real or is it bullshit and why. Has it been used already?

Well you can look at it two ways and then make your own choice.

First the MPI Tuner is for real, we use it on all types of cars. All of the Fords, Mazdas, Neons, Vipers, WRX, Honda's, BMWs, and the Porsche line. We use it to do all types of tuning on these cars.

I have talked about what the MPI Tuner can do all over this list and I have talked about why it does the things it can do. I have sent people our PDF tuning manual that shows you how to use the system. Still the same few thread stalkers keep coming back with the same BS. Now not one of them have ever used the MPI Tuner, they do not like it and or me, that is life.

When my customers come on and post how great the MPI Tuner works, the thread stalkers then down play this. The facts are that the MPI Tuner it is doing as I say and my customers who have it are getting the results they what. You can ask any of my customers and they will telling how great it works. We can go on and on with what this BS. My customers and I who use it say yes it can do all that I say and the thread stalkers who have never used it say it cannot all I say. So you can make your own mind up on who is a better judge of if the MPI Tuner works or not. On one side you have people with MPI Tuner that use it and love it. On the dark side you have a few thread stalkers who have never used it but can come on here and say that it will not work.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

[Kooldino]

Ok ok, no more MPI tuner discussion in THIS thread.

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
Well you can look at it two ways and then make your own choice.

First the MPI Tuner is for real, we use it on all types of cars. All of the Fords, Mazdas, Neons, Vipers, WRX, Honda's, BMWs, and the Porsche line. We use it to do all types of tuning on these cars.

I have talked about what the MPI Tuner can do all over this list and I have talked about why it does the things it can do. I have sent people our PDF tuning manual that shows you how to use the system. Still the same few thread stalkers keep coming back with the same BS. Now not one of them have ever used the MPI Tuner, they do not like it and or me, that is life.

When my customers come on and post how great the MPI Tuner works, the thread stalkers then down play this. The facts are that the MPI Tuner it is doing as I say and my customers who have it are getting the results they what. You can ask any of my customers and they will telling how great it works. We can go on and on with what this BS. My customers and I who use it say yes it can do all that I say and the thread stalkers who have never used it say it cannot all I say. So you can make your own mind up on who is a better judge of if the MPI Tuner works or not. On one side you have people with MPI Tuner that use it and love it. On the dark side you have a few thread stalkers who have never used it but can come on here and say that it will not work.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

[off topic]
I stalk you through threads because you cannot explain to me or anyone else for that matter how the MPI Tuner does what it does...

You run around here and church it up, that's for sure. But you have yet to say it does what it does. You have yet to answer my question that I have posted twice now in the other thread and Micah supposedly brought to you directly to answer.

This leads me to believe that you don't know what the MPI Tuner does, or how it does it. Neither do your customers.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here, if it works that is great for you. All I am asking is how does get around the ECU when you do not clamp the voltage to the O2 sensor? Closed loop on boost situations will go lean in that situation without some sort of voltage clamp on the O2 sensor. THIS IS A PROVEN FACT!

It is also something you refuse to talk about. Which leads me to believe that you don't know what it does.

On top of that, it leaves me to guess about what it does and all I can come up with is that the MPI Tuner is a glorified extra injector controller that blocks the CEL signal from the ECU and then resets the ECU everytime you get a CEL because you piss off the ECU by dumping in so much fuel after it has already pulled the 30% of fuel it can.

And that of course brings us to the open loop switch if you are at partial throttle on boost and then go into open loop for some reason. What happens? The ECU switches to a fixed table, and since your MPI Tuner relies on the O2 sensor, it can't keep up with that switch and might drown the motor in fuel.

I suppose instead of asking my question, my new question is can you even answer it?
[/off topic]

Sorry, but I'm tired of this guy coming on here and boasting about how wonderful his product is when he doesn't even explain how it works. All he says is ask his customers. He never answers any questions about how it works...

twilightprotege - Go with the Haltech, or you can wait to see what Link comes out with.

[perfworks]

Yes he forgets to mention that the only way he enriches the fuel system is with extra injectors. It cat do everything he says. Sorry but it has been proven time and time again. There are good points and bad about the system. If anyone has any questions on it you can Pm me. I can shed some light on those who DONT know how it works.
Some dont get how complicated this ecu is on the protege here in america.

[twilightprotege]

ahb11m - the main haltech factory is in sydney i think, but they have big offices all around. there's a main shop in brisbane. and my insurance company? i work for suncorp ;) hehehehehehehe

all - yeah i'd be very interested to see what a stand alone can do, esp with how rich our cars run. if i would get that down there's a bit of power straight there. plus better timing, higher rev limit....it's sounding good!

[MPNick]

Originally posted by perfworks
Yes he forgets to mention that the only way he enriches the fuel system is with extra injectors. It cat do everything he says. Sorry but it has been proven time and time again. There are good points and bad about the system. If anyone has any questions on it you can Pm me. I can shed some light on those who DONT know how it works.
Some dont get how complicated this ecu is on the protege here in america.


I am not sure where this info comes from, it does not come from using it.

We have been working with Ford the computer longer then most people. We started with the 2.3 turbo back in the early 80s. We know how the EEC-V computer works. The Mazda is a Ford EEC-V computer. We are weeks away from flashing our own customer programs.

We have total control of the fuel and spark curve. We can add fuel anywhere we need to and we can also advance or retard timing anywhere, as much or as little as you need. We have them running on turbo Mazdas right now, all of the people running them love them.


Thanks again


Later...........Nick

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
I am not sure where this info comes from, it does not come from using it.

We have been working with Ford the computer longer then most people. We started with the 2.3 turbo back in the early 80s. We know how the EEC-V computer works. The Mazda is a Ford EEC-V computer. We are weeks away from flashing our own customer programs.

We have total control of the fuel and spark curve. We can add fuel anywhere we need to and we can also advance or retard timing anywhere, as much or as little as you need. We have them running on turbo Mazdas right now, all of the people running them love them.


Thanks again


Later...........Nick


Who?? Who is running your flashed programs?

By saying this, you are implying that you have "cracked" the programming language used on the Mazda Protege ECU.

Have you?

It doesn't matter what the box is, it's the programming inside that is different. That has been covered as well. It is the EEC-V outside, but the inside is supposedly different.

Or, have you figured out Ford's programming and are putting flashed Ford programs in to run the Protege?

[MPNick]

Originally posted by StuttersC
[off topic]
the MPI Tuner does what it does...

.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here, if it works that is great for you. All I am asking is how does get around the ECU when you do not clamp the voltage to the O2 sensor? Closed loop on boost situations will go lean in that situation without some sort of voltage clamp on the O2 sensor. THIS IS A PROVEN FACT!

It is also something you refuse to talk about. Which leads me to believe that you don't know what it does.

On top of that, it leaves me to guess about what it does and all I can come up with is that the MPI Tuner is a glorified extra injector controller that blocks the CEL signal from the ECU and then resets the ECU everytime you get a CEL because you piss off the ECU by dumping in so much fuel after it has already pulled the 30% of fuel it can.

And that of course brings us to the open loop switch if you are at partial throttle on boost and then go into open loop for some reason. What happens? The ECU switches to a fixed table, and since your MPI Tuner relies on the O2 sensor, it can't keep up with that switch and might drown the motor in fuel.

[/off topic]


twilightprotege -

When you use the MPI Tuner/MAF you can use our fuel tuning table to add fuel anywhere you need it. You add fuel based on three things. TPS, RPM and boost load. If you find you need to add or remove fuel you just change the numbers. Bigger numbers give you more fuel, smaller number take fuel away.

If you do not have our MAF then you can control the fuel curve with our O2 tuning table. You dial in the air fuel ratio that you are looking for and then you adjust how much control you want to give the O2 at any given point.

We sample the stock ECM at up to 12 times per second. We then take some inputs and some outputs and condition them. We have been able to take the condition signal and place them on tuning table that breaks down what is being done. Tuning in closed loop has not been a problem for us. After you drive around a few times you see you can what the O2 is doing. So you start to tune fuel. Drive some more and tune some more. It will take you a few times if that but then you will have the handle on it. It has not been a problem at all.


I do not what to take up to much time on this thread. I will start a thread later that will go point by point on how we can do what we do.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
...(snip)

I do not what to take up to much time on this thread. I will start a thread later that will go point by point on how we can do what we do.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

Then I will keep this in mind when you start that thread, as I have more questions regarding what you have just posted.

I don't want to take out this thread when most of this has been attempted to be discussed in another thread.

[MPNick]

Originally posted by StuttersC
Who?? Who is running your flashed programs?

By saying this, you are implying that you have "cracked" the programming language used on the Mazda Protege ECU.

Have you?

It doesn't matter what the box is, it's the programming inside that is different. That has been covered as well. It is the EEC-V outside, but the inside is supposedly different.

Or, have you figured out Ford's programming and are putting flashed Ford programs in to run the Protege?

I said we are a few weeks away from flashing. I never said anyone is running them yet. The programming is not Mazda, I have been telling you this for weeks now. It is a Ford progam for a Mazda. People telling that it is not a Ford? Based on what? I have point this out also, you need to make sure of the facts. We will be able to change things in the Protege ECU, timing, fuel, idle speed, fan temp, and many other things. Do not worry, I will let you know when we are done.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
I said we are a few weeks away from flashing. I never said anyone is running them yet. The programming is not Mazda, I have been telling you this for weeks now. It is a Ford progam for a Mazda. People telling that it is not a Ford? Based on what? I have point this out also, you need to make sure of the facts. We will be able to change things in the Protege ECU, timing, fuel, idle speed, fan temp, and many other things. Do not worry, I will let you know when we are done.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick


I understood this:


We have total control of the fuel and spark curve. We can add fuel anywhere we need to and we can also advance or retard timing anywhere, as much or as little as you need. We have them running on turbo Mazdas right now, all of the people running them love them.


...to mean that you already have cars running your flashed program.


I guess we'll see when you are done...

[MPNick]

Originally posted by StuttersC
I understood this:


...to mean that you already have cars running your flashed program.


I guess we'll see when you are done...

No I do not have anyone running my flash programs.

It is with my MPI Tuner that we have total timing control. You can add or remove timing up to 18 degrees as you need.

Thanks again

Later...........Nick

[StuttersC]

Originally posted by MPNick
No I do not have anyone running my flash programs.

It is with my MPI Tuner that we have total timing control. You can add or remove timing up to 18 degrees as you need.

Thanks again

Later...........Nick


Ok, thanks for the clarification on the flashing thing...

[Bigg Tim]

YOU KNOW WHAT LET ME EDIT THAT
You can keep up that BS all you want. You want a war you got it bud.
Get an authorized vending permit here and then we will see
I have had enough of your lies

Once again, where's your status?
Where is he saying anything negative about you, he never even mention you dick! Now I can see you are mental. YOU don't know how to tune, so why do you think you know it all? Why couldn't you get your's running if your so good? You NEVER used the MPI so shut the hell up!!!! You think you know how it works, but you really only know how you thought the old one worked. If you want to bash with your boyz, then I can bash too.

What about all the shit talking you were doing to me about spool and the others? Something like my setup will RULE theirs? Oh, let me guess, you don't remember that? Seems like you will talk shit about anyone who is a competitor? Only someone simple minded and with something to prove will down talk another vendor to make them look better.

[twilightprotege]

alright, enough flaming in this thread.

any more will be deleted

[akhilleus]

finally...

[perfworks]

Tim you are getting involved in business that doesnt concern you.
Stop making rediculous posts about things you simply do not understand. You are spreading lies like Mpnick is. Be a man. If you have a problem contact me and and work it out. Stop going off topic.
I have said it on other threads. There will be nomore negative posts made by me. If you want to discuss the topic i will do so with no issues.
We will see what the results of my research have brought to the table soon. That will speak on its own merit.
Regards Nick

[glyph]

this thread has been totally hijacked. Will the mods please step up and clean this thread up? just asking for a little respect for twilight protege and his work. There are many of us watching this thread for ideas on how to work our engines in the future. This shit is ridiculous. Please pardon my language, but it fits.

[twilightprotege]

thanks glyph. i've pm'd kooldino to take a look at it

[Installshield 2]

but the flaming somewhat kept the thread alive...The most information pertaining to this thread has already been shared...When new results are released by Andy he will probably simply create a new thread, which would make more sense...

Any crap can be removed, but the information still shared was excellent and meaningful in relation to the thread title...Again the information was shared pre-flamewar

[twilightprotege]

well boys and girls, my mate has finally scanned my dyno graph....but is yet to email it to me. hopefully that'll be soon so as soon as i get it i'll post here

[twilightprotege]

as promised...

explaination about the dyno graph.

ignore the flatish one. apparently it's the tractive effort or something like that. problem is the Lb reading on the right...i dont get it. esp considering torque and hp are supposed to be equal at 5252rpm or something close to that....so anyway, just focus on the power curve

as you will see. power below where the VICS kicks in has dropped, above that it has increased.

when i can get the confirmation i will order and pay for the cam gears so i can more that peak to the left. shall be interesting that's for sure!

[glyph]

excellent! are they making you pay for all the dynos?

[flat_black]

Wow, damn... That's some crazy dynoage. =) Looks like the top end is a lot beefier!

[akhilleus]

Wow your low end really suffered in the second dyno. I would like to see how the cam gears go . This is a perfect example of when they should be used...since u will be able to dial back into the low end. Most people have used them to increase their duration which ultimately did very little...here u can adjust the duration lower to reduce overlap and increase low end. i think....
later

[twilightprotege]

the dyno run costs me $55aud (about $40usd) for a one off, or $25aud ($18usd) on a dyno day.

yes the cam gears should give a very interesting result...

[Kooldino]

Ugh, this thread would take forever for me to clean up. I'll let the OT posts that are in the past 11 pages stay, but any further OT posts WILL BE DELETED.

[TheMAN]

good god, all that work and you ONLY got 111hp? something is wrong

I bet it has something to do with how your head was ported

and this is what I got without doing crazy shit:
http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2264


Originally posted by twilightprotege
as promised...

explaination about the dyno graph.

ignore the flatish one. apparently it's the tractive effort or something like that. problem is the Lb reading on the right...i dont get it. esp considering torque and hp are supposed to be equal at 5252rpm or something close to that....so anyway, just focus on the power curve

as you will see. power below where the VICS kicks in has dropped, above that it has increased.

when i can get the confirmation i will order and pay for the cam gears so i can more that peak to the left. shall be interesting that's for sure!

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by akhilleus
Wow your low end really suffered in the second dyno. I would like to see how the cam gears go . This is a perfect example of when they should be used...since u will be able to dial back into the low end. Most people have used them to increase their duration which ultimately did very little...here u can adjust the duration lower to reduce overlap and increase low end. i think....
later

It is so difficult to explain quickly, and the fact that I should be doing homework makes me need to keep this short...

Cam gears only change the behaviour of the cam's specs...but they do not change them altogether...With that said you still keep the same duration/lift/angles etc. as before, but you can adjust rotational periods such as overlap and when the lobes strike the tappets in relation to crank revs...You basically are able to make the valves open sooner or later in relation to the intake stroke (referring to the intake cam) and the same with the exhuast cam in relation to the exhuast stroke...that is how the powerband gets shifted...

A lot of car enthusiasts confuse cam gears with variable valve timing devices such as VVTL-i or V-TEC, which is false...A cam gear will not allow a larger cam lobe profile to be kicked in at a certain rpm (V-TEC) or progressively (VVTL-i, which is toyota's version)...The gears simply give the owner control of where the powerband is in relation to the entire rev band, by adjustments to overlap and scavenging time mostly as well as the latter stuff mentioned...

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by TheMAN
good god, all that work and you ONLY got 111hp? something is wrong

I bet it has something to do with how your head was ported

and this is what I got without doing crazy shit:
http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2264

Ed you did notice how much more aggressive his cams where than the J-spec (which you used from what I remember) pieces?...I would tend to doubt that there is something abnormally wrong with any of the work done, and mostly that his engine can't rev high enough for those cam's specs to start singing...hence the need for the gears, or even better an ECU with a bump in rev limit...

But you could be right, I find it strange that his first dyno was in the 103whp range when he had everything you had except the intake manifold and exhuast cam...in which case you dyno'd at 110whp with 9.1:1 compression...and he made the 103whp with 9.7:1...I understand that that little of a compression increase wouldn't make much of a difference with similar fuel/spark management, but he didn't make much more than any of the North american FS's stock...

[twilightprotege]

edwin, what did you say on the other forum? i cant be bothered registering...

i wasnt happy with 111whp straight off. the first run got 103.5whp but that was right and i mean right at redline. on the 2nd run (the one on the graph, he got off just before redline. i dont think it's a problem with what i've done, it's a problem with the rest of the system and how they all work together. cam gears will help bring the power band down. probably will still peak at redline, but atleast before VICS kicks in it'll be better. also, a haltech ecu will help greatly.

and yep, mazda dealers are pricks (if anyone is wondering, this is in relation to a PM)

install and edwin, do you agree with me retarding both cams when i get cam gears? actually, i'll be retarding the exhaust cam and advancing the intake cam. the intake will need to open slightly earlier, and the exhaust will need to open slightly later. am i right in this?

[Installshield 2]

Hang on a minute...I will find the info...

[turboge]

I've got a haltech available if you are interested.

[twilightprotege]

nah, i live in haltech country (australia), thanks anyway

[Installshield 2]

I can't find the info on the pclub posted by Jesse along time ago...So this is all "from what I can remember"...

With a low rod ratio "all motor" engine such as the FS, you want to dial in as little overlap as you can...Not completely illiminate it becuase you can still get decent scaveging effects in higher revs...But little amounts of overlap can in turn create large amounts of compression lost becuase of the dastardly low levels of "dwell" time...So with the FS overlap times in degrees are very touchy...too big will quickly hurt power, and too little will also hurt power albeit not as much...

With your duration I would first try messing with retarding the intake cam only...I can't remember your ramp angles, so if the lobes are steep enough it won't take much "retarding" to close off overlap signifcantly, so I would bet advancing the exhuast cam would lessen the overlap even more...So this is beyond me, if you could post your cam specs again that would help...also what amounts of overlap do you have currently?

Theoretically you could retard both the intake and exhuast cams to keep the overlap at what it is now, and I am guessing lower the power band...although I need that tech article to freshen up on this subject...

[twilightprotege]

my cam specs (both intake and exhaust) :
gross lift 0.3512"
cam durations @
.010 - 272.5deg
.020 - 250.2deg
.050 - 225.9deg
.100 - 199.4deg
.200 - 147.4deg
.300 - 82.7deg

my current overlap, not 100% sure, but i think i remember the cam guy saying 8-10 degrees or something. so quite high

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
my cam specs (both intake and exhaust) :
gross lift 0.3512"
cam durations @
.010 - 272.5deg
.020 - 250.2deg
.050 - 225.9deg
.100 - 199.4deg
.200 - 147.4deg
.300 - 82.7deg

my current overlap, not 100% sure, but i think i remember the cam guy saying 8-10 degrees or something. so quite high

Woah, yeah very high for an FS I would imagine...That in itself could be most of the problem...With that much overlap you probably have pretty inconsistent exhuast pulse flow rates (the intake stroke begins while the exhuast valves are still significantly open)...Get the gears and pull back both while pulling the exhuast cam back 3-4 degrees more than the intake cam...From there you could make more accurate adjustments...

[twilightprotege]

yeah it's going to be play play play to find a suitable setting. just need a day dyno tuning

[akhilleus]

I think u will tune that engine really well. Where u could see impressive gains. good luck

[twilightprotege]

thanks man. might give you some ideas hey??? :D

[Mike R]

Why not have the VICS open earlier or just have them open the whole time? It's just vacuum operated anyway, right? I don't know if it'd help, but you could try it......it's not my money for the dyno :)

[twilightprotege]

well my vics opens at around 5500rpm. i think you yanks cars open earlier. correct me if i'm wrong...

but i've continually thought about having it open earlier, but am not sure how to go about it. edwin maybe you can help. maybe bigger tubing or something???

i was under the impression it used vacuum pressure to work, but is electronically control. anyone, is this right?

ideally i'd like vics to open at about 4500rpm. that way at all changes of gear, the VICS is active. it's a little bit of a pain that it opens, i change gears, it closes then opens again. that dip in power when it does kick in really sucks.

[Mike R]

Hmm, ours kicks in at 4500. I think it's a vacuum motor, but is electronically controlled.

OK, went and looked at the shop manual. There are two ways to try it out on the dyno, apply 12 volts to the solenoid or apply vacuum to the vacuum actuator. The only ways I could think of to get it to kick in at 4500 would be to get a US ECU or get an RPM activated switch that is connected seperate from the ECU. If you go stand alone its really easy...

[twilightprotege]

yeah i thought that's how it worked...no matter how much vacuum you have, it'll only open when the ecu allows it to do so.

if there are any auto electricians out there, would there be a way to have it open earlier with putting in some sorta relay etc?

[Mike R]

Yeah, and RPM acticated switch, there are lots of those out there. They are usually used for nitrous, shift lites, etc...



MSD SWITCH (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD%2D8950)

[MPNick]

Originally posted by Mike R
Yeah, and RPM acticated switch, there are lots of those out there. They are usually used for nitrous, shift lites, etc...



MSD SWITCH (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD%2D8950)

I think he said that he lives near Haltech. If you are going with that system you should just wait untill you get that system. I think if you add timing along with sooner VICs you may find better power at the mid range.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

[twilightprotege]

arh...i c! might have to think about that.

will try a dyno run with the VICS active (running normal) and the vics in the closed (high rpm) mode to see how they go and then i'll be able to decide what's the best option

[MPNick]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
arh...i c! might have to think about that.

will try a dyno run with the VICS active (running normal) and the vics in the closed (high rpm) mode to see how they go and then i'll be able to decide what's the best option

Good luck.

[twilightprotege]

yep, i live near the haltech factory. i like that!

anyway, i'll see how things go with the cam gears before i buy anything like that

[glyph]

do the haltech folks know you are doing this? They might just help out, or get you a discount. Show them this thread, and how many people are watching it. especially since you are local. btw, do you have racing designs? or are you doing this for the fun of it?

[twilightprotege]

fun mainly, and i want to start racing

if i can ever get time off work i'll chat to haltech and see what the go is...no harm in asking!

[turboge]

Haltech is actually under new management, a lot of the aftermarket is going to suffer in the US because of this. However Australia should still be in good spirits. You should try getting ahold of Matt "The Hitman" he is an extremely professional haltech tuner out there. I have a used haltech unit that is configured to use the different FS motor trigger that everyone but the US uses.

Also... do not apply 12V to the VICS solenoid, it is only looking for a ground signal, it is best to have the vics come on when power is starting to dip, then shut off when power is peaking, contrary to how it normally operates as a 5500-up range.

On my old BP we had the VICS enabled at 2500 and shut off at 5100 and it pulled very smoothly up to redline with no lapse in power. PM me if you want some info on the haltech, or check my sig.