Aftermarket B.O.Vs

[doggman]

what would i have to do to run an aftermarket b.o.v on my msp like the turboXS H-RFL

[Striker187]

hardpipes. i don't think you can run the rfl off the stock pipes. i'll check.

EDIT: ok i take it back. it may be possible to run the rfl or any turbo xs bov with the stock piping. they make adapter flanges to fit the greddy flange or the hks ssqv flange. if this is what i think it is (i didn't see any pics in my cursory search), then this will allow you to bolt ANOTHER flange up to it which will then allow you to run a hose to the inlet. you can find the second flange at www.8vturbo.com.

[doggman]

so wait you can run a turboXS h-rfl but you have to do what? i just learning about my engine and all thecomponents.

[Striker187]

ok, first off, call the place you bought the bov from and ask them about either the greddy adapter flange or hks ssqv adapter flange. make sure that this flange will allow you to bolt the rfl onto the flange that greddy/hks bovs normally use (i can't find any pics of the turbo xs adapter flanges so i'm not 100% sure it is what i think it is, but i'm pretty positive). if they say yes, buy one (try the greddy, i dunno, just cause).

pay a visit to www.8vturbo.com. they sell a flange for the greddy type s that will bolt up to the bottom of a greddy type s normally. however, since your rfl will now have the same flange as a greddy bov, this will work for you too. so buy the second flange.

now it's a simple procedure of removing the stock bpv and replacing it with your setup in a similar fashion. use a pair of pliers to loosen the normal clamps on the bpv tubes. DON'T remove the clamps that keep the hoses directly attached to the bpv. you don't need to or want to. once the stock bpv is out of the way, you'll need a 3/4" hose to connect to the intercooler piping nipple and a 1" hose to connect to the inlet of the bov (i.e. the flange you bought). you may be able to get by with a 1" hose connected to the ic nipple, i'm not sure. but if you do it the way i've said, just slip the 1" hose over the 3/4" hose and attach the correct end to the ic piping, and the other to the bov. cap off the inlet nipple on the intake piping side and you're done. be careful though, you WILL STALL under certain circumstances because you''re not recirculating.

lemme know if you have any more questions.

[doggman]

hey man thanks a lot. ya i d have acouple ?'s, will i have that ear piercing loud rfl pshhhhhhhhhhh and how do i keep from stalling? also the 1inch and the 3/4 inch tubing stuff, if the 3/4" pipping connects to the ic nipple then where does the 1" tubing connect? thanks again. ohh about the flanges the first flange i have to ask the b.o.v seller to see if they have an adaptor that will mount on the rfl and the second flange adapts to the adaptor flange on the rfl and the ic pipping? most likely the greddy flanges.

[Striker187]

yeah you should have a pretty loud sound. it may not be maximized though because you have to realize that you're only releasing pressure through a 3/4" hose. if you look at the actual inlet size of the bov, it's not 3/4". it's probably not even 1". so if you were to get hard piping and get the weld on flange with the huge opening, you'll probably get a louder sound just cause you'll be pushing more air, faster, through the bov. but by all means you should have a loud sound. the stock bpv is already pretty loud by itself with just an open air filter.

to keep from stalling, you'll have to recirculate, which, i'm sorry to say, i don't think it's possible with the rfl. you may be able to get someone to make a custom flange for the bov outlet but that would mean removing the amplifying horn and other stuff.....i'm not sure it's possible because this bov wasn't designed to recirculate.

the 1" tubing will connect to the adapter flange. if you take a look at the pic off of the 8vturbo website, you'll see that 1" inlet on the flange i'm talking about....that's what the 1" hose will go to.

[Leadfoot]

to prevent the stalling, check out this thread....I was just reading it, and it looks like they might have found a fix to the stalling issue when running w/ an aftermarket BOV. Good luck!!

http://www.msprotege.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34179

[doggman]

are there any bov i could get that recirculate and have a loud pshhhhhhhh sound? also if i used a rfl coudlnt i turn up the idle to compinsate for the lack of air?

[Leadfoot]

I think w/ recirculating, your always gonna get the turkey...(if I'm wrong, someone feel free to correct me)...it's because your putting the pressure back into the intake pipe....thus the turkey sound. release to the atmosphere, and you get to sweet pshhhhhhh.

[doggman]

i checked out that thread and what he was saying about just turnning that set srew all the way counter or clockwise cures the prob. what do you think Striker187?

[jred321]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
I think w/ recirculating, your always gonna get the turkey...(if I'm wrong, someone feel free to correct me)...it's because your putting the pressure back into the intake pipe....thus the turkey sound. release to the atmosphere, and you get to sweet pshhhhhhh.
i've heard otherwise. turkey either way. i agree with the slight compressor surge theory, thus recirc/not recirc has nothing to do with it, but there hasn't been a definitive answer, just theories

[doggman]

hey leadfoot did you check out that guys video? the bov sounded really nice!

[Striker187]

from what i read, this only helps with stalling at idle. which is half of the problem we have. if you rev high and then shift to neutral, i'm not sure if you would stall or not....but i guess if you're idling at 1500 rpm, you're not gonna stall so easily. but who wants their car idling that high?

that's half of the problem anyway. the other half, as supman discovered is that by venting, you're still getting a rich condition......very rich...so you may bog down in between shifts. unless you get a fuel controller that will pull fuel when your bov opens, there's no complete fix for it.

personally, i'd still recirculate because: (1) this car was designed from the factory to recirculate. so why not recirculate? (2) i don't want my car idling that high.

now even though you'll still probably encounter some slight compressor surge from recirculating (i'm almost positive that's what the turkey is now, caused by the return tube not being large enough, stock or injen), your car will still run better if you recirculate. until you get a fuel controller, i wouldn't vent. why risk a potentially dangerous stall?

yes, there are bovs that you can recirculate and get the nice psshhh sound. 935motorsports has offered to design me a recirculation fitting for the blitz dd bov. if you've ever seen getaway in stockholm 2, the bov you hear is the blitz. the hks recirculated also gives a whoosh sound, distinctly different from the blitz. the hks gives a flat pshhh sound whereas the blitz has a slight pitch change/whistle to it. visit www.blowoffvalves.com to hear sound clips of different bovs. to hear the hks ssqv recirculated, visit http://www.collectracecars.com/evo/hks_ssqv.htm

turbo xs valves also give a psshh sound and turbo xs does sell true bpvs. i've never heard one of their bpvs but i imagine they will sound very similar to their bovs.

those are probably your best options.

[doggman]

is the sound clip of that blitz bov a recirculating bov? also what are the fuel mods you are talkin about. ok if i get this right, i can get that fuel mod for my msp then i can run a non-circulating bov.? thanks again everybody you have all been a big help so far. i just hope i will figure this out so that i can get myself my BOV that has the nice pssssshhhhhhhhh as well as being a circulating bov!

[Striker187]

the sound clips off the site are vented to atm. you should get a very similar sound with it recirculated, least that's what i imagine. i see no reason why the sound should change, except for the volume of it, and only slightly at that.

the fuel mod i am talking about is some kind of piggyback (or standalone fuel) fuel controller. something like an apexi safc, which unfortunately, doesn't work with our car. if it did, oh the possibilites. but so far there's only modern performance's piggy back that will work (i think it's $700). spool is coming out with a greddy emanage program for our car soon. or you could get the E6k haltech. i believe that's a standalone....very good, but very expensive.

[Leadfoot]

Striker187...that evo website w/ sound clips is nice....gives a nice idea of how to go about installing the HKS SSQV (that's the one I plan to get, actually). It's also nice to know that I CAN get the good BOV sound w/ recirculating, and that the BOV I want can be set up that way. Now all I need is some money!!

Doggman...yeah, I did check out that whole forum....a lot of information, but note to self : this is "experimental"...I think investing in a stand alone or piggy back is the way to go when it comes to serious mods. Once again, good luck!!

[doggman]

so the only way i can vent is to get a fuel management system which they dont have for the msp or i cold just get a recirculating bov. And it will have the same sound as a vented but alittle quiter? also what about that flange you getting custom made, will i be able to get one so that i can hook up a bov, like the blitz, to my stock rubber setup instead of of metal weld on? also with that metal injen intake your talkin about will the nipple be larger then the stock nipple on the rubber pipping so that more of the air can flow? thanks -doggman ohh and Striker187 what was the price on the 5ziggen catback and is it sweet as in i should buy it. the only catback i ever saw was the thermal modded p5 exhaust that was only 2.5 catback. also the high flow cat, what did that caust and does it void warrenty regrding the O2 sensor???

[Striker187]

well there are fuel management systems out, they just cost a lot. the haltech e6k (turboage is using that) and modern performance's piggyback. and if you wait, spool will come out with a greddy emanage program. if you get one of these, you'll be able to vent no problems.

yes, you'll more than likely have the same sound if you recirculate. exception is the hks since the recirculation fitting requires the removal of the fin insert. the fin insert is responsible for hks's distinct whistle sound.

yeah you should be able to get one. visit www.blowoffvalves.com. it's run by 935motorsports. send them an email. ask for robert. he's the guy i was emailing back and forth with. i'm not sure if he remembers my name but tell him that Ash told you about the recirculation fitting for the blitz bov. see what he says, and keep me posted too :) the inlet flange, blitz makes. it's basically the same as the greddy flange i was talking about made by 8vturbo. you'll be able to run a 1" hose to the bov inlet.

the injen return tube is probably 3/4" diameter. that's just a guess. i posted some pics a while back of my injen setup. run a search and you'll find it. robert mentioned to me that the injen return tube looks small so that may be the reason why those of us with the injen still have the turkey.

unfortunately, 5zigen does not make a catback for the protege. i bought the 5zigen muffler. i paid $217 for the muffler shipped. i'm getting custom piping made tomorrow. i'm posting pics of the muffler right after this (12:15 am Friday night), and i'll post pics tomorrow of my setup. once i get back to college, i'll have my gf take some vids of it so all you can hear how it sounds.

i don't have the hi-flow cat yet. i need more money :p but you shouldn't void the warranty by changing out the 2 cats for 1 hi-flow one. so long as you place the o2 sensor after the cat, you won't throw a cel and should still pass emissions.

[carbonkid]

Thanks for the thoughts...do you have a website?

[low_psi]

the greddy type-s always does a pshhhh, even when recirc'ing

[Ryan]

for the millionth time i'll tell you people you can run any bov without a flange... and u can use the basically stock pipping as well.. the stalling will only occure for a few months ifyou learn to drive around it.. eventuallyt he ecu will learn and walla stalling will cease...

/members/Ryan/simg0795.jpg

there it is on my car basically stock pipping.. just few other adjustments... of course this will change when i do go hardpipes after rebuilding my engine :D

ps.. the turkey sound is just an attribute of the car its not gonna go away... there have been people to try hardpipping and all the other methods it doesn't go away... the only cure is to drive fast and shift fast and the turkey noise is subsided but not completely gone... so get over it and get used to it.

[DiscreetSpeed]

ooooh that looks cool,

-hey SuperSpud post one of mine.

[Striker187]

tytanium - if you're asking me, no. no website. unless you count my very small collection of pics in my imagestation account. my friends and i had a little website going of our club we formed. but we sorta gave up on it, we're all too busy. i just hang out on the boards, that's all.

ryan - can you post sound clips? be cool to hear what it sounds like.

[Ryan]

striker i only wish i coudl i just dayum near blew up my motor going to nopi it sitting at mazda gettign warranty work done and my motor is not covered under warranty anymore so when i get it back i'll be having the motor rebuilt.
once its rebuilt it'll be totally different unfortunately...

[Striker187]

sorry to hear about your car. woulda been cool to hear how it sounds. patience patience.....i'll get my blitz dd sooner or later :D

[Ryan]

yeah good luck with that.. by the time its rebuild it'll prolly be bored out .20 port and polished forged internals 8.5:1 pistons custom rods... maybe camgears and cams.. instake manifold intake cam exhaust cam im going all out on the motor.. plus i'll get the ion fmic and ion 3" turbo back exhaust... so by the time anyone hears it its gonna be a monster...

[Striker187]

damn, sounds impressive. i wish i had that much money :p keep us posted :D

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Striker187
damn, sounds impressive. i wish i had that much money :p keep us posted :D

i dunno how far 6,000 will get me... but im thinking i can get forged internals meaning the 8.5;1 je pistons and some rods and the intake manifold and intake cam and exhaust cam. and some various other parts... also the ion fmic and the ion ehaust both of witch are around 1k each so thats 2k so 4 k left over for internal parts for the engine.. i dunno how much its gonna cost to have it bored or port and polished so i gott find those prices out.. so i may not take it that far but at the least it'll have forged internals... and the ion fmic hardpipes and the ion exhaust.

[doggman]

so striker if i get that greddy emanage program i can run an rfl and no roblems? YESSSSS mhmmmm extrmey loud pssssshhhhh yes. that's really good news. ohh what exactly does it do to keep from stalling the car at idle and stuff. and one more really important Q's how much and when is it coming out.
ewwwwww i want the rfl and it's possible im sooooo happy. hey ryan that's sweet how your hopefully getting all tht stuff deffinitly keep us posted. With the fmic how much psi can you run. also how much psi can you run with the pistons and the other internals.
thanks every body your posts have helped greatly.
ohh i almost forgot, what happens if the vacuum line to the bpv isnt connected, does the engine lite go on because of that or wa? my friend broke the line when he was trying to show me the pshhhhhhhh sound when you dont recirculate. aren't friends nice!

[Ryan]

Originally posted by doggman
so striker if i get that greddy emanage program i can run an rfl and no roblems? YESSSSS mhmmmm extrmey loud pssssshhhhh yes. that's really good news. ohh what exactly does it do to keep from stalling the car at idle and stuff. and one more really important Q's how much and when is it coming out.
ewwwwww i want the rfl and it's possible im sooooo happy. hey ryan that's sweet how your hopefully getting all tht stuff deffinitly keep us posted. With the fmic how much psi can you run. also how much psi can you run with the pistons and the other internals.
thanks every body your posts have helped greatly.
ohh i almost forgot, what happens if the vacuum line to the bpv isnt connected, does the engine lite go on because of that or wa? my friend broke the line when he was trying to show me the pshhhhhhhh sound when you dont recirculate. aren't friends nice!

im hoping to be able to safely run the 15 psi and at track push probably 20... HOPEFULLY... this is all based on speculation... and our cars stock can handle 13 psi no problem without causing issues.. its when u hit hte 14-16 psi range that problems start to happen... i dunno how long u can run it at 13psi b4 problems occure but i ran my than way for nearly 2 months without issues.. it was when i got zealous at nopi adn decided to crank it.

[doggman]

So Ryan what does the car run stock psi wise? and what type of boost controler should i get. when you crank up the boost, so i crank it up to like 10 psi without problems, ohhh that would be great. more power here we come!!! aprox how long do you think the internals will last with the boost turned up(in my case it would be 10 for now)

[Ryan]

okay... stock boost our cars run between 4-6 psi.. it fluctuates due to the plastic pipping and some other stuff.. you could safely run it at 10 psi and it'd probably last maybe a year less than it would at stock... depending on how hard ur gonna run the car on a daily basis... with me i got addicted to boost and i gradually over time cranked it up a lil by lil until the problems happened..

[doggman]

Thats cool. what would happen after alittle bit of time to the engine with the higher boost. do you think that the car will still run good for at least 4 years at ten psi. the reason i say four years is to give myself a cousion, i will be moding the car within that four years and will most likely be upgradng the internals anyway but i just want to kno if the stock engine could handle the added boost(10 psi to be exact) for four years. ohh and with the boost controler, how does that work, how do you kno what psi your runnin. does it tell you or wa? also what type of boost controler should i get. thanks Doggman

[Ryan]

yeah but if you through on a fmic it'll last even longer at 10psi ;)

[Ryan]

i went electric boost controler for the convience i went with greddy profec b spec II very cool...

[doggman]

ok so ryan what happens to the engine after a period of time being turbo charged. will the pistons g or will the whole cylindergo or what exactly would i have to replace? what do you think the horsepower gaine is with the added psi as in the 10 psi rather than the 4-6? thanks for all you help -doggman

[Ryan]

well lets be basic here.. okay.. stock version of our car w/o turbo is pushing what 130... our car is pushing 170... so 130 - 170 is 40 hp.. so were getting about 40 hp from the turbo at 6 psi ... . 40 / 6 is? 6.6 so were getting about 7 hp per psi... this is very basic... in reality were only getting about 2-4 hp per psi... so figure it up 4 x 10 is what? 40, so 170 + 40 is? 210 once agian this is basic its more around the 190 - 195 range... i think someone showed a dyno at 195 running 10 psi... i believe they had a front mount intercooler tho.. so that could be why.

[doggman]

if i get the fmic what type of psi could i run safely then? would i be able to turn it up or no? i would like to be able too snce i wuld be spendng mhmmmm 1000 on it

[Ryan]

yeah you could i dunno safely how high u could go tho.

[doggman]

ok man thanks for all your help it been greatly appreciated. so when are you goin to do all the stuff to your car. also what is the website fr th fmic your getting as well as the turbo back exhaust? ohh and wat type bov doyou have.

[Ryan]

they have a site but its never really open for anything to look at... just do a search on ion... u can read all about it on the forum.... no problem this is what hte forum is for helping one another out.. i get my car from mazda hopefully monday so hopefully i can get it in a shop and they can tell me whats wrong with it.. so probably a month or two b4 its fixed and ready to roll.

[doggman]

where do i go to read all about the ion exhaust/fmic in this forum? also is the exhaust 3" all the way back or what size is it. that sux about your car but when it's all said and done and your doin lik 14's or i dont kno but you are running with one of the fastest msp then it wil lall be worth it!!!!!!

[Striker187]

doggman - yes, if you get the greddy emanage, you should without a doubt be able to run a bov vented to atm. the emanage has an anti-stall function which i believe refers to it being able to pull fuel when a bov opens, thus eliminating stalling. just note that the emanage will only control fuel, not timing. apparently spool can't figure out a way to make the timing option work. our car is very stubborn. contact spool as to when it will be available.

you'll need a boost gauge to tell you what psi you are running. electronic or manual, it doesn't really matter, they do the same thing. couple advantages of the electronic are that you can adjust the boost from the comfort of your car and it generally won't spike as high as a mbc. but an mbc is cheap (to buy or make) and works quite well for those on a budget. most electronic boost controllers also allow for the setting of two different boost levels, a hi and low, with the ability to change between them on the fly. a mbc, you'll have to get out of your car, adjust the mbc manually with an allen wrench or something simliar usually, and get back in and see how the psi changed. essentially limiting you to one psi setting at a time. however, turboxs makes a dual stage boost controller (dsbc). basically, two of their mbcs put together, allowing you to change between settings at the flip of a switch.....and it's a very cool looking switch at that. that's what i want :p

ryan - with forged internals and the right fuel management, you should be able to run up to about 20 psi. i heard a rumor that our iron block could take up to that amount. also, if you're gonna spend that much money, might as well get the haltech e6k or something simliar. if you're gonna go all out, might as well do it right. and get a wideband o2 sensor as well. then you can adjust your car as much as you want and not have to worry.

[Striker187]

ion's exhaust is the one true turboback available. it doesn't bolt up to the s-bend as all the others do; it bolts up directly to the turbo. and it's 3" all the way. i forget what kind of muffler they use. and with all that done to his car, ryan should be breaking into the 13s! :D

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Striker187
doggman - yes, if you get the greddy emanage, you should without a doubt be able to run a bov vented to atm. the emanage has an anti-stall function which i believe refers to it being able to pull fuel when a bov opens, thus eliminating stalling. just note that the emanage will only control fuel, not timing. apparently spool can't figure out a way to make the timing option work. our car is very stubborn. contact spool as to when it will be available.

you'll need a boost gauge to tell you what psi you are running. electronic or manual, it doesn't really matter, they do the same thing. couple advantages of the electronic are that you can adjust the boost from the comfort of your car and it generally won't spike as high as a mbc. but an mbc is cheap (to buy or make) and works quite well for those on a budget. most electronic boost controllers also allow for the setting of two different boost levels, a hi and low, with the ability to change between them on the fly. a mbc, you'll have to get out of your car, adjust the mbc manually with an allen wrench or something simliar usually, and get back in and see how the psi changed. essentially limiting you to one psi setting at a time. however, turboxs makes a dual stage boost controller (dsbc). basically, two of their mbcs put together, allowing you to change between settings at the flip of a switch.....and it's a very cool looking switch at that. that's what i want :p

ryan - with forged internals and the right fuel management, you should be able to run up to about 20 psi. i heard a rumor that our iron block could take up to that amount. also, if you're gonna spend that much money, might as well get the haltech e6k or something simliar. if you're gonna go all out, might as well do it right. and get a wideband o2 sensor as well. then you can adjust your car as much as you want and not have to worry.

yes but with only 6k its gonna be hard to include that as well,, i'll run it off the factory ecu for awhile.. then i'll go standalone,, i cant afford the laptop and the rest of what i would need to make the car fully adjustable.. so one step at a time..

search ion on the forum for their stuff... yes its a 3" turbo back exhaust 3" all the way back.

btw for the one night i ran through atlanta if i were to trade the car in right now and take a major loss... i would still say it was worth it all, for the one night adreniline rush thats gonna be hard to top... it was all worth it...

[doggman]

hey striker what is the deal with the timming? will this effect anything? they way our car is setup it probably will lol. but in any case im happy to kno that if i get the emanage i can get te rfl. YESSSSSSS PSSSHHHHH here i come well when the emanage comes in then i can get the psssh but it will be well worth the wait.

[Ryan]

oh shit i forgot to mention underdrive pulleys too woohoo i have to do those... im guessing when all is said and done i'll be pushing low 8's 1/8 mile and probably like striker said mid - high 13's... thats when i get ballzee and though on a nitrous express or zex system... and co2 spray in the fmic. ;) -wicked evil grin-

[doggman]

my friend just brought up a good point, if i raise the boost im making the fuel to air mixture more lean right, so if i do that isnt that bad for the car?

[Striker187]

doggman - yes, timing will affect how your car will run. it can prevent you from throwing a rod through the side of the block :eek: fuel and timing generally go hand in hand but with fuel alone, that should be enough to give you a good but safe operation point. our car runs insanely rich already so you'll be able to adjust that problem right away....just don't get overzealous ;)

ryan- true true. one step at a time. but correct me if i'm wrong, aren't underdrive pulleys a no no on turbo cars? i forget the reason why but i remember reading this on the forums.

[Ryan]

Originally posted by doggman
my friend just brought up a good point, if i raise the boost im making the fuel to air mixture more lean right, so if i do that isnt that bad for the car?


wrong the ecu will make up for that our cars run way to rich as it is.. it will continue to be overly rich when u increase the boost the ecu compensates throughing more fuel... u can't blow it up that way.

now once u crank it so high that the injectors cant open wide enuf to release enuf fuel then u could get into some leaning issues but thats gonna be nearly impossible... until u get to a point were im gonna be at after the rebuild.

[Striker187]

if i'm not mistaken, the computer should dump more fuel to account for the extra airflow, to a point of course. if not, since our car runs super rich anyways, by upping the boost, you may get a better a/f ratio (something closer to 12:1). i think we're at 10:1 or even lower maybe.....

[jred321]

i think some in this thread people could benefit from http://www.bellengineering.net/maximumboost.html
modding the driver is the best way to go

[jred321]

Originally posted by Ryan
now once u crank it so high that the injectors cant open wide enuf to release enuf fuel then u could get into some leaning issues but thats gonna be nearly impossible... until u get to a point were im gonna be at after the rebuild.
the injectors can't flow that much more than stock boost... compute the duty cycle, it's already pretty high. turning up the boost any considerable amount and you're running off static injectors. our injectors are way too small

[doggman]

ok acouple Q's. First, you kno the vacuum line that runs from the bpv to the something well mine go tore off by one of my friends. we tried another line that was stricly hose and that tore so now i have no line connected to the bpv. will this cause the engine lite to go on and will this effect the car in anyway. Second, with the emanage how do i kno how to adjust the fuel mixtures with it. does it have a read out tht will tell me what the air/fuel mixture is right now or how will that work. what will be a good running mixture.

[Ryan]

yeah car is only 15% driver is 85% all the factors that play in.. are true..

[jred321]

Originally posted by doggman
ok acouple Q's. First, you kno the vacuum line that runs from the bpv to the something well mine go tore off by one of my friends. we tried another line that was stricly hose and that tore so now i have no line connected to the bpv. will this cause the engine lite to go on and will this effect the car in anyway. Second, with the emanage how do i kno how to adjust the fuel mixtures with it. does it have a read out tht will tell me what the air/fuel mixture is right now or how will that work. what will be a good running mixture.
please http://www.bellengineering.net/maximumboost.html
thank you

[Ryan]

but its not effecting the injectors its better to have injectors that are fully open than to have larger injectors open just a lil... u shoudl know that.
u really dont need to upgrade the injectors till about 15 and up psi... i think the stock ones will do for 15.. and lower... just my opinion not a professional one just how i feel about it.

[jred321]

Originally posted by Ryan
but its not effecting the injectors its better to have injectors that are fully open than to have larger injectors open just a lil... u shoudl know that.
u really dont need to upgrade the injectors till about 15 and up psi... i think the stock ones will do for 15.. and lower... just my opinion not a professional one just how i feel about it.
im not trusting them for daily driving at 15psi, at the track for a run or 2 or a dyno pull or so then yea, it's fine, but daily driving i don't want my injectors at more than 100% duty cycle. the stock injectors are really small for a turbo car. if you compute the duty cycle, they're almost maxed out already on stock boost. i'm not trusting them over 10psi, but i'd rather not blow up my motor so i err on the side of caution

[Striker187]

doggman - you'll more than likely want a pro to tune the emanage fuel map for you. you use a laptop to program it. but i think with spool's program, it will come fully programmed so no tuning necessary, though adjustments may need to be made depending on your mods.

without the vacuum line connected, your bpv won't open. the bpv stays closed by either the use of a spring or in hks's design, the boost pressure helps to hold the valve closed. but to open it, the bpv needs the vacuum pressure to pull the valve open (i.e. when you let off the throttle). so essentially, i think you'll be running without a bpv.

[doggman]

so jred321 your tellin me that if i run 10 psi te injectors wont be able to handle it? man this sux. hopefullyi can run 10psibefore i have to get new injectors.

[Striker187]

amen to that jred. being careful never hurt anybody.

[Ryan]

Originally posted by jred321
im not trusting them for daily driving at 15psi, at the track for a run or 2 or a dyno pull or so then yea, it's fine, but daily driving i don't want my injectors at more than 100% duty cycle. the stock injectors are really small for a turbo car. if you compute the duty cycle, they're almost maxed out already on stock boost. i'm not trusting them over 10psi, but i'd rather not blow up my motor so i err on the side of caution

i agree with you but like i said i'd rather have smaller injectors fully open than larger injectors somewhat open... but thats just me.. would there be an advantage of adding more of the same injectors we have more openings.. would that work.. to releave it some..?

[Ryan]

but hey... being careful never hurt anyone but without the guys willing to take a risk u'd never know the full potential. ;)

[doggman]

Originally posted by Striker187
doggman - you'll more than likely want a pro to tune the emanage fuel map for you. you use a laptop to program it. but i think with spool's program, it will come fully programmed so no tuning necessary, though adjustments may need to be made depending on your mods.

without the vacuum line connected, your bpv won't open. the bpv stays closed by either the use of a spring or in hks's design, the boost pressure helps to hold the valve closed. but to open it, the bpv needs the vacuum pressure to pull the valve open (i.e. when you let off the throttle). so essentially, i think you'll be running without a bpv.

but i have driven it and the bpv deffinitly opens. it seems like it is louder. i dont kno why but it seems as if the bpv has gotten louder. also will the check engine light come on?

[jred321]

Originally posted by doggman
so jred321 your tellin me that if i run 10 psi te injectors wont be able to handle it? man this sux. hopefullyi can run 10psibefore i have to get new injectors.
technically they aren't performing their job anymore beyond that, they're totally open and how much fuel going in is based on fuel pressure and isn't dependent on the injector anymore. while this is better for the atomization of the fuel, i'm not going to trust it every day. and i don't know if it is actually 10psi, that was just an estimate, im just saying higher boost. tuning is the key to making power, learn how to do that first before just throwing mods at things and hoping they don't blow up.

[jred321]

Originally posted by doggman
but i have driven it and the bpv deffinitly opens. it seems like it is louder. i dont kno why but it seems as if the bpv has gotten louder. also will the check engine light come on?
are you sure it was the vacuum line and not the return tube?

[Ryan]

10 psi... is fine.. i dont think they open full load till 12.. but thats just my opinion... becuz there is a major difference and feel between 10 and 12 psi.. theres a jolt... i'd actuallyb e willing to bet there open and not longer working much beyond that around 14 psi.

[jred321]

Originally posted by Ryan
but hey... being careful never hurt anyone but without the guys willing to take a risk u'd never know the full potential. ;)
true, but i don't want to push limits without being able to monitor them properly so i don't go blowing anything up or not knowing exactly why something failed, and i don't have a wideband or data logger among other things to really know whats going on in there.

[Ryan]

Originally posted by jred321
true, but i don't want to push limits without being able to monitor them properly so i don't go blowing anything up or not knowing exactly why something failed, and i don't have a wideband among other things to really know whats going on in there.

yeah yoru going the safer route and thats fine thats what i was gonna do till i got zealous so i guess i'll be one of the first to find out just how far we can push this... after my rebuild it wont be the same.. but i shoudl be able to monitor things alot better...

[jred321]

Originally posted by Ryan
would there be an advantage of adding more of the same injectors we have more openings.. would that work.. to releave it some..?
you could add extra injectors, pruven uses 8 550's on the evo they submitted for the uscc, just plumbing/controlling them can be a pain

[jred321]

Originally posted by Ryan
yeah yoru going the safer route and thats fine thats what i was gonna do till i got zealous so i guess i'll be one of the first to find out just how far we can push this... after my rebuild it wont be the same.. but i shoudl be able to monitor things alot better...
i would suggest a wideband and something like this http://pocketlogger.com/?page=prod&prod=obd2 to monitor as you push limits so if something fails you can see what it was and you'll know how to correct it, or you can hopefully see it just before it does fail so you can save yourself some money and not break it :)

[doggman]

Originally posted by jred321
are you sure it was the vacuum line and not the return tube?


ya because you can feel the suction from the line. ok you do bring up a real good point. you dont just want to through things on and hope the engne doesnt blow up, how would you go about adding mods but tuning them as you go. see what i dont understand is how do you tune the car when you crank up the boost to like 10 psi. isnt that tuning in itself? how else would you raise the boost. if i got the b.c and the b.g and turned the boost to 10 psi how else could i tune it. do you get what i mean. what else could i do. i want to run more boost but of course i want to do it safely. see what i really want to do is get the emanage fuel management system and then get the rfl bov. i also want to get a b.g and a b.c so that i can turn up the psi. but i also want to do safely. so what should i go about doning then so that i tun as i go and do tings right not quick.

[Ryan]

well i dont mean i plan on pushing limits once i do the rebuild.. more than likely i'll be settled with it were its at.. i'd be happy running 15 - 18 psi.. but if i get something like the obdII then i would be able to up it inch by inch till i can get the safest maximum yanno..

[jred321]

Originally posted by doggman
ya because you can feel the suction from the line. ok you do bring up a real good point. you dont just want to through things on and hope the engne doesnt blow up, how would you go about adding mods but tuning them as you go. see what i dont understand is how do you tune the car when you crank up the boost to like 10 psi. isnt that tuning in itself? how else would you raise the boost. if i got the b.c and the b.g and turned the boost to 10 psi how else could i tune it. do you get what i mean. what else could i do. i want to run more boost but of course i want to do it safely. see what i really want to do is get the emanage fuel management system and then get the rfl bov. i also want to get a b.g and a b.c so that i can turn up the psi. but i also want to do safely. so what should i go about doning then so that i tun as i go and do tings right not quick.
turning up the boost is not tuning, it's turning up the boost. if you turn it up to 10psi, you'll probably be fine in stock tune. beyond that you are going to need to control fuel/timing in some way. options are very limited right now. if you want to do things right, start by reading corky bell's book and leaving everything stock, then get some monitoring tools, then you can assess weaknesses in the system and fix them.

[doggman]

what do you jred321 think about te emanage system and being able to vent instead of recirculate? also what would i get to manage the car. i really want to turn up the boost but for now im only 17 and im still getting help with the payments from my mom and i cant go making haisty decissions and have the possbility of screwing things up. so for me i have to go the safe route. thanks for all the support -doggman

[Ryan]

dude i STRONGLY suggest u do not mod the car at all until 36,000 miles is up or until 3 years or up... just a suggestion.. trust me.. ur mom will be very pissed if u blow it up.. shit happens the possiblity of u blowing it up at 10 psi isn't high but still possible.. i strongly suggest u leave the car stock dont put a boost controller on it,, cuz here's the real deal.. u do that, and blow the car up.. take it to mazda well u raised the boost the so that voids warranty on turbo then the turbo blew the motor up voids warrante on motor.. and it'll cost you 4,755.95 give or take 100 bucks here or there to have it fixed.. if i were u i'd stay stock until you get out from under mom's wing.. and the car is all urs and ur responsibility.

[jred321]

if you can't afford to break something, don't mess with it. emanage, once they release the one for our cars, will help with fuel. venting the bov is totally unnecessary, emanage could fix the problem by making the ecu think it has less air then it does during shifts and then send the right amount of fuel to the cylinder, but i don't know if it does or not, it may

[doggman]

see i kno venting is unnecessary but i like the pssssshhh sound and i really like the rfl. i would love to hook up the rfl on my car. if i got the emanage and the rfl would that void warrenty. see i want to do things to the car that wont void warrenty and wont take away frm the cars life to dramaticaly(specificly the engine). i plan on modding the car and stuff but as i said i have to go the safe route. if i go the safe route then i should be fine hopefully. if something goes wrong then i will have to pay, but wih the safe route that shouldnt happen or at least not frequently. and jred321 what are some of the monituring systems i can buy to aid n the safe tunning modifications.

[Ryan]

there is no safe route trust me you do anything to the engine... its psht bye bye.. on the warranty.. ur better off modding the exterior... seriously.. i dont advise u doing anyting to the car considering u cant even make the payments on it.. yanno. its not your car.. i'd consulte ur mom b4 adding anyting cuz its more her car than it is yours.

[jred321]

emanage will def. void your warranty, as will anything to make real power out of the engine.
i would suggest a wideband and something like this http://pocketlogger.com/?page=prod&prod=obd2 to monitor as you push limits so if something fails you can see what it was and you'll know how to correct it, or you can hopefully see it just before it does fail so you can save yourself some money and not break it
from a few posts up. boost gauge is necessary, oil temp/pressure, water temp/pressure would also be nice to know as well. and please read corky's book before doing anything that may blow up your car

[doggman]

see i want to make it quicker in all but i want to be safe and all that other b/s but that is true im still under my moms wing and it's really not my car in all but i REALLY want to mod it and make it faster and you kno all the guy stuff guys want t do to cars. do you think if i got a cat back and a high flow cat as well as an intake and possibly some gauges i would be fine. i REALLY want to do stuff so that it's non stock/ different.

[Ryan]

dude the msp itself is far from stock LOL... leave it like it is for at least 36,000 so that even what little you may do to it.. it wont be under warranty anymore so it wont matter.... so just drive the fuck out of the car until you have 36,000 miles on it.. if your anything like me it wont take you long.

[doggman]

ok thanks for all your support, you guys have all been real helpfull. man i never new that forums like these could be so informative!

[Ryan]

yeah they can be.. thats jsut what i suggest man.. this way the car is out of warranty, and when it comes down to it if you tell you mom you wanna mod it and its out of warranty she wont car as much cuz lets say you through intake and a boost controller on it, and something weird happens not neccesarily something you caused maybe there was a defect in the car before hand... then you warranty is gone and your out almost 5k to get a new motor.. see what im saying? if there's a defect in the motor surely it will come out in that 36,000 miles.. thats why i highly suggest not modding the engine until thats over with.. i wish i had waited but im also not under mom and dad's wing the car is in my name and im free to do as i wish to it.. if you do want to mod the car pls consult it and the possibilities of what it can do and how your mom would feel about having to pay for a car that doens't run if something does happen.. dont think about it strickly form ur point of view but form the point of view of those it affects.

[jred321]

that's what we're here for :)
just remember the saying,
fast, cheap, reliable. choose any two.

[doggman]

so you dont think that even a cat back and an intake could possibly be fine not voiding any warreties or anything of that sort. see that catback wouldnt be doin anything electrical nor would the intake and the guy at the dealership i bought it from said that if i dont touch the electrical that i would be fine regarding mods. ohh and what about gauges arent those kinda a nessesity. that doesnt seem like it should void warrenty. they just let you kno how your car is running in away. well even if it is not in my best interest to mod the car yet, i can just remind myself that im lucky enough to be driving this car even if it is bone STOCK.

[Ryan]

guages are not so bad, but remember you have to change the vacuum lines well not really change but put in a t... they can say you did it wrong thus voiding the warranty... same goes for tieing the lights into the electrical system... intake isn't so bad, but still if the maf fails they can say you did it when you put the intake on... exhaust i dont see being a big deal.. i'd say stick to modding the interior and exterior looks... wait on the real mods till later... guages are not a neccessity if the car is stock only time u really need guages is later on when u start to mod the engine.. cuz right now.. ur boosting between 4-6 psi.. whoopty doo the needle moves a whole half inch... u wont really be paying much attention to it anyways... seeing it move so little will only make you wanan buy a boost controller so that it will move further.. its all up to you man.. im just telling u cuz i was there and here im sitting with a almost blown motor and having to replace / rebuild it...

[doggman]

man damn your views. they are so true, i just have to realize that i have to WAIT(damn that word) to mod the car. but i guess in the long run it will all be Worth it. or at least wait till the car is in my name and i have no person to look at and ask them for permission if i can do anything to the car.

[doggman]

Do you guys kno of any good catback exhaust manufacturers that i should look into buying one from them? see i want the exhaust to be loud but not ricy loud, not the high pich wine but a good mid low tone that sounds nice and gets loud.

[pdhaudio83]

doggman, where in MICH u from?? what u drive? :D

[doggman]

i live in oakland county. i drive a black MSP and proud of it!!!!!!! wher abouts do you live in MI?

[Striker187]

doggman - you'll be fine with very basic stuff. catback, intake, bov (so long as you don't replace the pipes), even a dp. but that's about it. when i was at the dealership, i spoke with shawn of mazdaformance for a while. i wanted to do all this stuff to my car, and then he told me this and that will void the warranty. well crap, there went half my plans out the window. but i guess i don't have money to spend now anyways so that's a good thing :p just be patient. stick with very very basic stuff for now. no sense in going crazy for now. besides, the msp is a great car to drive in stock form :D

exhaust, you don't have many choices right now. go take a look at the msp aftermarket tuning guide at the top of the msp forum page. you'll find a number of exhausts that are currently available. some that aren't listed (at least last time i checked) are spool's 2.5" catback w/hks muffler, apex's (not apexi's, not to confuse the two) 2.5" catback w/tsudo muffler will be released shortly (it looks very nice (2thumbs); it's on AZSpeed's car currently), and someone is having their car prototyped for vibrant's 2.5" catback currently. greddy is also supposedly coming out with their evo exhaust for the msp in a few months. apex will also release a 3" version of their exhaust using a apexi N1 muffler. jic-magic also has one available but note it is made for the regular protege so slight adjustments to it may need to be made. hks has an axleback for the p5 that you may use. you'll just have to have it lengthened silghtly to make it fit the msp. any muffler shop can do this. or do like i did. go custom :D check out my post for pics!

[pdhaudio83]

i live in GR, we just had a michigan meet yesterday! i wish i knew u lived in mi!! :(

[doggman]

apex? good company? do you think that the exhaust would be expensive. i want to get 3" back from the cat so that's why im talkn about the apex. so if i do get liek the exhaust and the cai and maybe the dp i will be fine.? that's good to kno. at least i can get soem stuff. ohh about the bov striker, you said that your getting the blitz, i can just hook the bov up to the stock nipple like ryan did with the aid of a larger diameter pipe right and just recirculate it right? mhmmmmmm mods very basic mods bt still mods. that's good news about the cat and the cai and even the bov.

[doggman]

hey striker what is that aftermarket tunning guide your talkin about, i dont see anything like that at the top of the msp forum page.

[doggman]

ohh yes another Q's. do you guys drive your msp in the winter and if so what type of tires do you get? also if yes do you think belle tire would be a good place to buy winter tires from?

[Striker187]

apex sounds like a good company and has some nice products available. they respond quickly to their emails and have a full functioning webpage. the exhaust is the only one i know of that goes UNDER the rear axle and also is only one that is angled up and out to the side. that's how i got mine done though i think i could angled the muffler up a little more. oh well.

the aftermarket guide is there. it was started by jersey_emt. you can't miss it.

[doggman]

if i were to get a new dp i will have to disconnect the o2 sensor and reinstall it on the new dp. desnt tht void worrenty because of the messing with the o2 sensor?

[Striker187]

yes you will. i don't see how this would void your warranty. read up on the magnusson-moss act. this act protects us from voiding our complete warranty. basically, it says that the dealership has to prove that the part we changed directly caused the failure. this is to protect us from those bogus claims.....some dealership actually refused a guy warranty work on his power windows cause he had an exhaust!!

if you want to be sure, pm chojin, the guy i talked to at my dealership. or talk to the guys at your dealership.

[doggman]

hey do you guys drive you msp in the winter and if so what winter tires do you use?

[Ryan]

man.. we cant asnwer them all just not enuf time in the world not tyring to be a dick.. but if you use the search function this issue and issues we have discussed in here are alreayd on the forum ;).. just search keywords.. and sort through the shit u'll find it.

[doggman]

ok sweet srry bout that im just really interested in my car!