AWR Headers Dyno [Equinox] [Archive]

Equinox

09-15-2003, 01:58 PM

I had these dynos for a while now, and you can tell by the horrible horrible condition of the dyno sheets, lol I'm sorry guys.

I didn't have a scanner at the time so I didn't think anyone was gonna see them, so I didn't take care of the sheets. But either way, my mods are listed at the top of the dyno sheet. I kept the image very large so you could see everything.

Something of note as well, when I got both these dynos my rear motor mount was broken (I didn't know) so you can see the dyno curve hops up and down and up and down between almost every 100rpm span. Makes for a horrible curve, but does not affect the peak numbers. This is not a result of any of my mods, just something I needed to fix - and since have, with AWR motor mounts, these are very old dynos tho, so please forgive me =P

Summary of Dyno 01
Engine Mod Summary: Injen CAI, HKS Exhaust, 2 1/4" cat-back, Fidanza Flywheel, Clutchmaster Stage I Clutch
3rd Gear peaks: 105.6whp 112.8wtq
4th Gear peaks: 106.9whp 115.7wtq
Dyno Chart 01 (http://www.mazdamp3.com/members/Equinox/dyno01.jpg)

Summary of Dyno 02
Engine Mod summary: All of above + AWR Header (secondary cat still on car)
3rd Gear peaks: 116.7whp 123.1wtq
4th Gear peaks: 117.3whp 122.1wtq
Dyno Chart 02 (http://www.mazdamp3.com/members/Equinox/dyno02.jpg)

Overall Gains Summary:
3rd Gear peak gains: +11.1whp +10.3wtq
4th Gear peak gains: +10.4whp +6.4wtq

feel free to double check my second grade addition.

[EDIT]
Cleaner recharted Dynos done in Microsoft Works:
3rd Gear Dyno Charted Curves (http://www.mazdamp3.com/members/Equinox/3gdyno.jpg)
4th Gear Dyno Charted Curves (http://www.mazdamp3.com/members/Equinox/4gdyno.jpg)

Bought mine from Mitch at Protege5Online.com (http://www.Protege5Online.com), thanks Mitch!

ATLskate

09-15-2003, 02:05 PM

Good job posting these results> So i guess you've decided against going turbo?

Equinox

09-15-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by ATLskate
Good job posting these results> So i guess you've decided against going turbo?

I decided that a while back, when I never really saw any N/A proteges setting any kind of example =P Not that I'm any better than anyone.

I'm gonna try to break 150whp without nitrous, and then round off 200whp with a 50shot, to show turbo isn't the only answer.

Our cars don't respond well to gains until you get rid of teh exhaust manifold with built in cat. ie. Get a header

ATLskate

09-15-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Equinox
Our cars don't respond well to gains until you get rid of teh exhaust manifold with built in cat. ie. Get a header

Obviously, according to your dyno.

Darin

09-15-2003, 02:56 PM

WHy are your plots so fucked up-looking? I'd say that based on how IMPOSSIBLE Those are to read (What's with the big Ups and Downs????) It's inconclusive evidence at best.

have them use 'smoothing' on their viewer next time? I dunno..

Darin

09-15-2003, 02:59 PM

Doodsmack

09-15-2003, 03:11 PM

Darin...

Originally posted by Equinox
Something of note as well, when I got both these dynos my rear motor mount was broken (I didn't know) so you can see the dyno curve hops up and down and up and down between almost every 100rpm span.

Equinox

09-15-2003, 03:22 PM

Darin as mentioned in my first post, the big ups and downs on the curves are because of the broken rear and front motor mount on my car at the time of the dyno. Yeah the front was torn too, I didn't mention that :D

I can see you have some doubts at the protege having any power in an naturally aspirated form, and I don't blame you. I just want to do it cause I really haven't seen it done before, and so far I feel it is a success, seeing as I started at 98whp. The bottlenecks of the protege engine are at the exhaust manifold, what with the primary cat "barrel", and at the engine heads. I plan to soon port out my engine heads, and see the results there.

The dyno scans are not there to actually read the curve, it is just to credit my findings of the peak gains given with the AWR header. I stated when I first pulled these dynos on the gains I found, but a lot of people wanted some form of proof, which I did not have the ability to show until now.

Oh, also, thank you Doodsmack :)

uclap5

09-15-2003, 03:35 PM

nice gains. :D

time for some cams, yes? ;)

ah darin, always the N/a skeptic. ;)

Equinox

09-15-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by uclap5
nice gains. :D

time for some cams, yes? ;)

ah darin, always the N/a skeptic. ;)

Yeah but I think I am going to make my own, and only after I port my heads and fabricate a new intake manifold, that way I can lobe the cams more aggresively. Luckily Mitch at Protege5online.com sells blank billet cams =)

kurt

09-15-2003, 03:42 PM

Thanks for posting your dyno stuff. (2thumbs)

acidbbg

09-15-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Equinox
I decided that a while back, when I never really saw any N/A proteges setting any kind of example =P Not that I'm any better than anyone.

I'm gonna try to break 150whp without nitrous, and then round off 200whp with a 50shot, to show turbo isn't the only answer.

Our cars don't respond well to gains until you get rid of teh exhaust manifold with built in cat. ie. Get a header

Those are some good dyno #'s especailly b/c you have a cat in place!! Is it the stock cat? Or a High flow cat?

Here's a pic of the header i just purchased! I figure i should be getting close #'s as yourself..this header i just ordered is a 4-2-1 design...

Well...w/ getting 150whp without nitrous is going to be very difficult!!

I figure:
stock p5=130hp
mp3 ecu=10hp
intake (w/ custom ram air kit) & exhuast=7hp
header=15hp
that will put me into the 170hp...at the crank...
w/ a 50shot of nitrous...over the 200hp at the crank...
about 180whp...

I figure if ya wanna get to the 200hp w/ nitrous you will need a 75shot!!

Keep us up to date...

Chas
:D :D

Equinox

09-15-2003, 03:50 PM

that's with my stock second cat with it's tiny piping still in place between header and 2.25 pipe after it.

I see it this way.

I have 126whp now, and with headwork I should easily gain 25 to 30whp, so, there you have it.

Another 10whp with custom intake manifold
AGGRESIVE cams 10whp
that's 170+ whp right there
I'd rather not go the MP3 ECU route as increased timing interfere's with my nitrous,

I can then, without that ECU shoot 50-75 very safely using a wet kit.
220-245 whp, why is that hard? =)

I wouldn't doubt the ability to get 200whp without nitrous using advanced timing, and high compression pistons. I'm lucky though to have 93 octane fuel at my disposal here in Texas.

Also, the mp3 got 10hp more at the crank because of the ECU, exhaust, and lack of the variable turbulence control system in the intake manifold.

acidbbg

09-15-2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Equinox
that's with my stock second cat with it's tiny piping still in place between header and 2.25 pipe after it.

I see it this way.

I have 126whp now, and with headwork I should easily gain 25 to 30whp, so, there you have it.

Another 10whp with custom intake manifold
AGGRESIVE cams 10whp
that's 170+ whp right there
I'd rather not go the MP3 ECU route as increased timing interfere's with my nitrous,

I can then, without that ECU shoot 50-75 very safely using a wet kit.
220-245 whp, why is that hard? =)

I wouldn't doubt the ability to get 200whp without nitrous using advanced timing, and high compression pistons. I'm lucky though to have 93 octane fuel at my disposal here in Texas.

Also, the mp3 got 10hp more at the crank because of the ECU, exhaust, and lack of the variable turbulence control system in the intake manifold.

I am not sure that head work will net you such high numbers..i think maybe 15hp!!

Oh yeah..agressive cams adjust timing...no???

I get 94 at the pump by me for 1.95usd per gallon!!

chas

p5sundevil

09-15-2003, 04:22 PM

lol, this is close to what I want to do but I want to hit 150-170whp and then think about a spool stage1kit with custom intercooler and some little things.

I think you are right about your goals but it is going to take more than what you listed to hit 170whp IMO. Obviously by my "IMO" anything anyone says right now about potential hp for the N/A route is opinion and nothing else since the only other engines doing that are race fabbed.

So intake and exhaust(although I would do 2.5")
header
mid-hi flo second cat(mid flow for a little backpressure and some low end power retention)
port and polish heads
custom cams
flywheel
pistons?
ecu for timing? E6K E6X?
Jspec intake manifold or better
maybe pulleys and some little things to smooth it all out like wires(spark and ground) plugs and other samall things.

Then it is doable.

Tehan again I have heard soem engines just have a maximum potential in that no matter what you do(short of a stroker kit) it cant go past xxhp N/A...dont know about these engines as I have only had my car for 6-8 months.

anyway my GOALS are to hit 150-165whp N/A and with a spool stage one(if I have the money t3/t4 turbo and FMIC) I should be able to hit say 220whp?

That is plenty for me, I enjoy long winding roads with nice turns and bends as opposed to straight down the line 300+whp apps. Although if I had 8grand.....lol

Equinox

09-15-2003, 04:58 PM

well, we will all see =)

1FASTMP5

09-15-2003, 05:10 PM

i dont understaind your dyno says you have 117 whp.
your saying that you have 126 whp now, have you done anything since the dyno to bring you up to 126whp?

Dimitrios

09-15-2003, 05:30 PM

AWR header keep the 1st cat or not? I want to go with a header but wish to retain emmissions as it is....

Darin

09-15-2003, 05:31 PM

My thoughts:

Peak gains mean DICK. Would it be awesome if you gained 15whp from headers, at 5500 rpms, but you were DOWN 20whp from 2000-5500 rpms? The Curves mean EVERYTHING.

I'd wager you'd see dyno gains if you fixed your motor mounts. :)

I am NOT an N/A Skeptic - I'm a realist. N2O won't give you repeatible gains because eventually, you'll run out of 'Juice' - and N2O Is NOT 'Naturally Aspirated' ;) Injesting that much Oxygen into your motor is NOT a natural occurance.

Enter Dead Horse Beating:

150whp N/A is possible from the FS motor. It WILL be expensive. I'd guess 160whp N/A is possible - some Miatas w/ the 1.8 are up over 190whp, N/A. Nevermind the Thousands and Thousands of dollars put into them.

I'm just screaming that we should approach our goals with cautious optimism. Remember, if a Header adds 5hp, and a CAI ads 7, by themselves, TOGETHER they may add only a total of 10hp to your engine. Or maybe 15. How components work together is of paramount importance.

:)

Kooldino

09-15-2003, 05:39 PM

You know, if you just fitted a test pipe in place of the primary cat, you'd probably see gains that are almost as nice as the header.

Equinox

09-15-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Darin
My thoughts:

Peak gains mean DICK. Would it be awesome if you gained 15whp from headers, at 5500 rpms, but you were DOWN 20whp from 2000-5500 rpms? The Curves mean EVERYTHING.

Well for one, I said these dyno charts are merely so you can see my gains, I KNOW MY curves, I have since re dyno'd, which is why I know why the jumping in the curve is the motor mounts.

I'd wager you'd see dyno gains if you fixed your motor mounts. :)

Also I suggest reading the full posts before you reply to anything, As it has been shown in three different posts, including the original that I have fixed my motor mounts. Maybe you should read this thread fully?

I am NOT an N/A Skeptic - I'm a realist. N2O won't give you repeatible gains because eventually, you'll run out of 'Juice' - and N2O Is NOT 'Naturally Aspirated' ;) Injesting that much Oxygen into your motor is NOT a natural occurance.

Enter Dead Horse Beating:

150whp N/A is possible from the FS motor. It WILL be expensive. I'd guess 160whp N/A is possible - some Miatas w/ the 1.8 are up over 190whp, N/A. Nevermind the Thousands and Thousands of dollars put into them.

I am well aware how much it will cost, and I'm sure you will notice that, to me, I'm all about the doing, and not the cost.

I'm just screaming that we should approach our goals with cautious optimism. Remember, if a Header adds 5hp, and a CAI ads 7, by themselves, TOGETHER they may add only a total of 10hp to your engine. Or maybe 15. How components work together is of paramount importance.

Liek I mentioned, I'm not worried about exact numbers, which is why I am generalizing numbers, if I think I can get 170whp from mods, I'm going to assume that will atleast, worst case scenario, make my 150whp goal.

Equinox

09-15-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by 1FASTMP5
i dont understaind your dyno says you have 117 whp.
your saying that you have 126 whp now, have you done anything since the dyno to bring you up to 126whp?
Yes I have since installed mandrel bent 2.5" exhaust piping, and taken out the secondary cat and replaced with a OBX high flow cat (might as well be just a pipe, cause it flows the same)

Dimitrios - The AWR header replaces the stock exhaust manifold, which is where the primary cat is. Then, after the down pipe, which the header ALSO replaces, is the secondary cat. This is where the header connects to.

Matthew

09-15-2003, 06:37 PM

you cannot just put a testpipe in place of the first cat. youd have to make some silly shit at a muffler shop or weld shop...be easier and a hella lot nicer looking to just get the header

Equinox

09-15-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by RazorP5
you cannot just put a testpipe in place of the first cat. youd have to make some silly shit at a muffler shop or weld shop...be easier and a hella lot nicer looking to just get the header

well the first cat bolts up to the exhaust manifold in this weird sort of barrel design, you coudl unbolt it, then weld a pipe to a plate... and bolt it up to the exhaust manifold. It would have to be a plate because the manifold spreads out to the width of the barrel before it bolts to the "barrel" itself. The pipe would have to go all the way down and maybe out the side near the front tire, or all the way back past the shift linkage(front seat area).

It woudl definately be tricky.

Familia323

09-15-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Darin

Enter Dead Horse Beating:

I'm just screaming that we should approach our goals with cautious optimism. Remember, if a Header adds 5hp, and a CAI ads 7, by themselves, TOGETHER they may add only a total of 10hp to your engine. Or maybe 15. How components work together is of paramount importance.

Let the dead horse go!..... Im pretty sure Equinox is approaching this with cautious optimism.. you dont see him screaming out "EVERYONE GO N/A YOU GET INCREDIBLE GAINS" or anything like that. I dont see why you keep belittling his goals over and over... Obviously he is taking the path that not many care to take.. and if he wants to go this route, then let him go. I give him props for trying this because no one knows whats going to happen... Anyway, just let the kid do what he wants without reminding everyone of the same thing we all read about for 8 pages back in my thread on N/A. And I'm not trying to start a war, I just think it is time to wait for his final results and stop giving him a hard time for doing something that will open up some proof that everyone can benefit from knowing.

chaosi

09-15-2003, 07:49 PM

Yea, I think you can get to 150whp.. get some head work done, larger IM and TB, some cams and some tuning and youre set. Then just sit back and let the turbo guys hate on you. :p

RAAZ227

09-15-2003, 08:08 PM

:eek: 11 whp...nice #'s

PaulMP3

09-15-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Kooldino
You know, if you just fitted a test pipe in place of the primary cat, you'd probably see gains that are almost as nice as the header.

wagnermotorsports.net makes one. I bet it would be much cheaper without the high flow cat. He made it when he had JaJe downpipe off. It is a direct replacement.
http://www.wagnermotorsports.net/projects/18/Im000743.jpg

Equinox

09-15-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by paulmp3
wagnermotorsports.net makes one. I bet it would be much cheaper without the high flow cat. He made it when he had JaJe downpipe off. It is a direct replacement.
http://www.wagnermotorsports.net/projects/18/Im000743.jpg

yeah that's exactly what I was trying to describe, well, there you go, it retains the stock exhaust manifold tho, which isn't half bad really.

PaulMP3

09-15-2003, 08:19 PM

he also has a midpipe that bolts up to stock locations. both midpipe and down pipe are 2.5"

he is working on a header now, that bolts to stock locations. Like the traveler header. I saw his progress saturday, looks nice. All flanges are laser cut SS and his weld are beautiful. Everything is Stainless.

Darin

09-15-2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Equinox
Well for one, I said these dyno charts are merely so you can see my gains, I KNOW MY curves, I have since re dyno'd, which is why I know why the jumping in the curve is the motor mounts.

? Do you have any NoN-unreadable, pre-header Dyno plots?

Originally posted by Equinox

Also I suggest reading the full posts before you reply to anything, As it has been shown in three different posts, including the original that I have fixed my motor mounts. Maybe you should read this thread fully?

Look kiddo - my re-stating, or agreeing with OTHER comments or observations about your motor mounts doesn't mean I'm not reading your dribble. Did any of those three different posts, including your original state "I think fixed motor mounts would show dyno gains?" I was trying to be encouraging -

dissagree with me, fine - but don't be an asshole, mmkay?

Originally posted by Equinox

I am well aware how much it will cost, and I'm sure you will notice that, to me, I'm all about the doing, and not the cost.

whoopdeshit. here's something for you to 'do'...fix your damn motor mounts :)

Originally posted by Equinox

Liek I mentioned, I'm not worried about exact numbers, which is why I am generalizing numbers, if I think I can get 170whp from mods, I'm going to assume that will atleast, worst case scenario, make my 150whp goal.

We'll see, I suppose.

Mike R

09-15-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by paulmp3
wagnermotorsports.net makes one. http://www.wagnermotorsports.net/projects/18/Im000743.jpg

Anybody know how much??

Darin

09-15-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Familia323
Let the dead horse go!..... Im pretty sure Equinox is approaching this with cautious optimism.. you dont see him screaming out "EVERYONE GO N/A YOU GET INCREDIBLE GAINS" or anything like that. I dont see why you keep belittling his goals over and over... Obviously he is taking the path that not many care to take.. and if he wants to go this route, then let him go. I give him props for trying this because no one knows whats going to happen... Anyway, just let the kid do what he wants without reminding everyone of the same thing we all read about for 8 pages back in my thread on N/A. And I'm not trying to start a war, I just think it is time to wait for his final results and stop giving him a hard time for doing something that will open up some proof that everyone can benefit from knowing.

belittling? Are you a child? read my replies - I asked for LEGIBLE Dyno prints before I believe claims - in order to get the REAL picture of how the header affected his engine, clear before and after runs need to be shown - apart from that happening, we have non-conclusive evidence which shows a power gain. 'peak' power is only HALF the battle. Unless you like VTEC.

If my questions constitute "giving anyone a 'hard time'", then that person is a pussy.

PaulMP3

09-15-2003, 08:26 PM

email him. maybe ask if he would make it without a cat for those who dont want a cat at all. It also has a O2 bung after the cat so you wont throw a CEL

Equinox

09-15-2003, 08:26 PM

Nice, I'll send some business his way

Equinox

09-15-2003, 08:29 PM

Familia323

09-16-2003, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Darin
belittling? Are you a child? read my replies - I asked for LEGIBLE Dyno prints before I believe claims - in order to get the REAL picture of how the header affected his engine, clear before and after runs need to be shown - apart from that happening, we have non-conclusive evidence which shows a power gain. 'peak' power is only HALF the battle. Unless you like VTEC.

If my questions constitute "giving anyone a 'hard time'", then that person is a pussy.

Hahaha Jesus man calm down, no need for name calling. But seriously stop asking shit thats already been answered a hundred times.. So, you say you want proof before you believe right? Well I was pretty sure thats what he has been trying to do... You say you want legible dyno sheets right? Well I'm pretty sure he said that these sheets had some faults before you started bitching. So we can all assume that he just wanted to post those to give us some food for thought now until he gets those mounts fixed and dynos again. And you say you want the real picture right? Here it is... NO ONE LIKES YOU... hehe j/k :D But instead of arguing with him on something that everyone knows you are never going to care about anyway, why dont you stop giving your advice on this thread... You obviously just want to argue your point... but for what reason? No one in this thread is going to give a rats ass if you cant read the dyno or if you wont believe the gains until "clear before and after runs are shown." most of us will take his dyno, average it out and go from there.. This is after all just a guide for everyone to use. So if you want to get technical.. then why dont you buy a Protege and test it yourself, since you are so quick to refuse everyone elses help.

ProtegePoe

09-16-2003, 01:36 AM

Personally I think that a standalone ecu will help you get to your goals alot easier.

TheMAN

09-16-2003, 01:42 AM

1) get a new monitor because everyone can read that crumpled up scan just fine
2) "skimming" over posts is NOT reading... READ EVERY SINGLE WORD
3) he already GOT new motor mounts, why you didn't see that... see 2
4) before and after results are easily readable, your problem.. you're either blind or your monitor sucks
5) SHUT THE FUCK UP

Originally posted by Darin
belittling? Are you a child? read my replies - I asked for LEGIBLE Dyno prints before I believe claims - in order to get the REAL picture of how the header affected his engine, clear before and after runs need to be shown - apart from that happening, we have non-conclusive evidence which shows a power gain. 'peak' power is only HALF the battle. Unless you like VTEC.

If my questions constitute "giving anyone a 'hard time'", then that person is a pussy.

uclap5

09-16-2003, 02:21 AM

i hope you dont mind. in fact, i hope you are happy i took it upon myself to superimpose the 2 dynos, allowing one to compare curves easier. (tricky since they were on different scale)

BLUE = 1st dyno sans header
RED= 2nd dyno avec header

http://www.mazdamp3.com/vbb230/_handler.php/uclap5/dynocompare.jpg

also attached since ill probably delete it off my account later.

forgive the messiness, but you can read what counts.

enjoy.

uclap5

09-16-2003, 02:22 AM

heres the attached. Im always thinking of the future generations... ;)

flat_black

09-16-2003, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Mike R
Anybody know how much??

When he responded to my e-mail a while back, it wasn't in production. It definitly should be by now, though. He said, and I quote:
"The price on the mid pipe is $330 with the hi flow cat and $230 without."

...and as for the downpipe...

"The price on it will be about $400."

Someone on here mentioned it was like $425 or something when asked prior.

I may pick these up eventually, as I still want to retain my catalysts, and it will give me time to get a junk yard exhaust manifold and port the hell out of it, 'till it's a nice diameter, and nice and smooth. I also plan to match the exhaust ports to the gasket, then the manifold to the gasket to improve flow. We'll see what gains they show.