Possibilities going N/A

[5speedP5]

Well after reading everything about boosting and how much of a bitch it is on this engine. Ive started weighting out other ideas (other than selling it now), and N/A seems like a decent way to go. Now with the header that im seeing come around, a good intake, exhaust and some BIG cams (not the mazdaspeed cams) what kind of power could we look at? Any ways to make a decent amount of power (with out going into building a full race engine ala speedvision proteges)

[Darin]

we just talked about this...a couple weeks ago. There is no way to make decent power NA - without spending $10,000 or MORE...even then, we are talking 30-50hp improvement, max.

:-/

[5speedP5]

bah, oh well it was worht a shot.... fucking engine

[p5sundevil]

darin where were u when we talked about that?

it has already been shown that custom ground cams combined with a good port and polish job on the heads can produce upwards of 33whp gains.

with an intake, exhaust and a good header your talking more like 45-50whp gains, now ur almost in the range of the MSP and ur still NA.

add to that a flywheel, pulley, pistons and an ecu upgrade to tighten the compression a little you are realiztically looking at 55-70whp gains when ur about done with what you can do N/A, and the ecu is important.

Id be plenty happy with 160-165whp N/A meaning like almost 200-210 at the crank, make those wrx's work for thier money when racing.

So a N/A buildup is possible and with what I listed below your talking about 2-3 grand. about the price of a stage 1 or 2 turbo kit without worries about boost problems and no waiting for boost.


hell according to corksport if u swap in the almost as weak Jspec cams,pistons and intake manifold they say you should be around the Jspec hp rating.

[p5sundevil]

here si the thread where twilight, intallshield2 and myself talked about N/A possibilities as well as building N/A to run a low boost turbo setup.

very good info there from those guys.

http://www.protege5.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28829

[twilightprotege]

sundevil you took the words right out of my mouth...urrrr...keyboard

[Jethro_TDot]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
darin where were u when we talked about that?

it has already been shown that custom ground cams combined with a good port and polish job on the heads can produce upwards of 33whp gains.

with an intake, exhaust and a good header your talking more like 45-50whp gains, now ur almost in the range of the MSP and ur still NA.

add to that a flywheel, pulley, pistons and an ecu upgrade to tighten the compression a little you are realiztically looking at 55-70whp gains when ur about done with what you can do N/A, and the ecu is important.

Id be plenty happy with 160-165whp N/A meaning like almost 200-210 at the crank, make those wrx's work for thier money when racing.

So a N/A buildup is possible and with what I listed below your talking about 2-3 grand. about the price of a stage 1 or 2 turbo kit without worries about boost problems and no waiting for boost.


hell according to corksport if u swap in the almost as weak Jspec cams,pistons and intake manifold they say you should be around the Jspec hp rating.

hah 2-3 grand? :bs:
ill give you the money and get these parts for me:confused:

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
darin where were u when we talked about that?

it has already been shown that custom ground cams combined with a good port and polish job on the heads can produce upwards of 33whp gains.

with an intake, exhaust and a good header your talking more like 45-50whp gains, now ur almost in the range of the MSP and ur still NA.

add to that a flywheel, pulley, pistons and an ecu upgrade to tighten the compression a little you are realiztically looking at 55-70whp gains when ur about done with what you can do N/A, and the ecu is important.

Id be plenty happy with 160-165whp N/A meaning like almost 200-210 at the crank, make those wrx's work for thier money when racing.

So a N/A buildup is possible and with what I listed below your talking about 2-3 grand. about the price of a stage 1 or 2 turbo kit without worries about boost problems and no waiting for boost.


hell according to corksport if u swap in the almost as weak Jspec cams,pistons and intake manifold they say you should be around the Jspec hp rating.

BS... There's no way a small motor will get THIRTY HP from re-grinds. You are fooling yourself if you think simply doing re-grinds, Port/Polish, and a small compression bump (even a LARGE bump) will give you SEVETY HP.

I haven't seen full J-Spec MOTORSWAPS show more than about 120whp.

Go find a 150whp Miata, that is Naturally Aspirated. Ask the owner how much he's spent and sacrificed to get there.

[p5sundevil]

dude call bs all you want people have dyno'd those numbers, like i said one person found 33whp from custom ground cams and the port and polish.

this is not as impossible as you think man, think about how much some of the parts on ours cars bottleneck power, like the intake manifold, heads, cams, those ridiculous excuses for cats and so on. releasing bottlnecks will release the power they are withholding.

The p5's runnning in the SCCA have their heads bored an extra .2, port and polish, new tubular intake manifold and cams and a couple othewr small things and they dyno at 210whp. that is on stock internals also.

If your such a disbeliever go ahead and not believe me and others, like i care either way, you spend the extra money on a turbo kit and risk a higher boost level and all the extra money that goes with controlling boost properly and havce fun, Ill stay N/A and see exactly what gains I do get over the next yr as I build up my engine.

and remember because one car can or cant do something doesnt mean shit for other cars, all engines respond differently to different things, some will give u 5-8hp with exhaust inatake and header and other, like the new QR25dett engine saw 12 whp from just an intake and header. all depends on the engine like I said.

[FrigginGLI]

What about that touring P5 car that roger Foo drives. That is NA right and produces what 210 hp? :confused:

[PaulMP3]

Originally posted by pimpprotege69
What about that touring P5 car that roger Foo drives. That is NA right and produces what 210 hp? :confused:

i bet that engine doesnt last long at all. It also redlines at 8000rpms or higher. all custom tons of $$$

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
dude call bs all you want people have dyno'd those numbers, like i said one person found 33whp from custom ground cams and the port and polish.



No they didn't. You are implying an otherwise stock Protege saw a THIRTY hp gain from a custom re-grind? That's not gonna happen. I'm a 'show-me' kinda guy. Show me who this 'one person' is, and show me what else was done to his car. Show me the results on a back-to-back dyno?


Originally posted by p5sundevil

this is not as impossible as you think man, think about how much some of the parts on ours cars bottleneck power, like the intake manifold, heads, cams, those ridiculous excuses for cats and so on. releasing bottlnecks will release the power they are withholding.

It's VERY impossible to gain 30whp from a regrind on a 2L motor.



Originally posted by p5sundevil

The p5's runnning in the SCCA have their heads bored an extra .2, port and polish, new tubular intake manifold and cams and a couple othewr small things and they dyno at 210whp. that is on stock internals also.

Which P5s? Show me. How to you bore out a head?



Originally posted by p5sundevil

If your such a disbeliever go ahead and not believe me and others, like i care either way, you spend the extra money on a turbo kit and risk a higher boost level and all the extra money that goes with controlling boost properly and havce fun, Ill stay N/A and see exactly what gains I do get over the next yr as I build up my engine.

I'm a believer of scientific Data. Are you naive enough to think adding 50whp with a turbo is somehow 'harder' on the motor, than adding 50whp NA? Extra money?

Show me a NA 200whp Protege, and I'll show you a guy who spent well over $10,000 on his engine.



Originally posted by p5sundevil

and remember because one car can or cant do something doesnt mean shit for other cars, all engines respond differently to different things, some will give u 5-8hp with exhaust inatake and header and other, like the new QR25dett engine saw 12 whp from just an intake and header. all depends on the engine like I said.

All engines respond the same way to physics. I am VERY familiar with the FS series motors. My Probe gained 7 whp from changing the spark plugs once. (shrug). Does that mean Probe Motors are better than Nissans? My motor aslo gained 25hp from switching to a test pipe. Big Farking Deal.

Show me these magical numbers and engines you are spouting about.

2 Stock Proteges....$5000 to spend on power-adders.

1 goes NA = 140whp
1 goes Turbo = 200whp.

It's your call. Pick whatever path you want.

[Darin]

Originally posted by paulmp3
i bet that engine doesnt last long at all. It also redlines at 8000rpms or higher. all custom tons of $$$

Right. In order to get that kinda power, you'd need Honda-like head room on your tach. RPM is the replacement for displacement.

[twilightprotege]

gee darin, bit angry there...

ok i'll be your test dummy to keep you happy. my car baselined 103.5hp at the wheels with the few mods i've done. i am getting custom cams ground as we speak. these cams are a fair bit more than the jspec and mazdaspeed cams most ppl have. they will be ready 12 september.

now, i'll be trying my hardest to get them installed the following week, run them in for about 500miles or so, then get a dyno done. i'm guessing i'll be getting somewhere in the vacinity of 15-20whp from the cams....now you'll notice i have STOCK exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat...with a full exhaust i'd be looking 25-30whp from the cams.

now i know the dyno runs wont be back to back because my original dyno run was on 19 July, but because i'm in Australia and we're heading into summer, the weather will be hotter than then, so i'll be loosing out.

but sundevil is right...the key to his claims and mine is tuning!

later

[Darin]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
gee darin, bit angry there...

ok i'll be your test dummy to keep you happy. my car baselined 103.5hp at the wheels with the few mods i've done. i am getting custom cams ground as we speak. these cams are a fair bit more than the jspec and mazdaspeed cams most ppl have. they will be ready 12 september.

now, i'll be trying my hardest to get them installed the following week, run them in for about 500miles or so, then get a dyno done. i'm guessing i'll be getting somewhere in the vacinity of 15-20whp from the cams....now you'll notice i have STOCK exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat...with a full exhaust i'd be looking 25-30whp from the cams.

now i know the dyno runs wont be back to back because my original dyno run was on 19 July, but because i'm in Australia and we're heading into summer, the weather will be hotter than then, so i'll be loosing out.

but sundevil is right...the key to his claims and mine is tuning!

later


What makes you think I'm angry? I'm a skeptic - there is a difference. How much are the cams costing? How much is tuning going to cost?

The day before you install the cams, dyno your car.
After the cams, Do the runs on the same dyno, same gear, under the same conditions.

Tune all you like.

[twilightprotege]

cams...i have blanks from mitch @ protege5online, and getting them ground to my specs is costing me $250 australian....that's like $165usd....i'm not having my engine tuned at this stage, i was just saying that tuning is the real key to power....

i'm not going to run the car the day before i install the cams because i like my car, value my engine...i'm going to run the cams in for atleast 500miles like i said before i even think of going above 4000rpm.

but i can assure you that i will be in hotter conditions when i run my dyno this time coming up...because like i said, the previous run was the middle of my winter, the next one wont be.

[p5sundevil]

ok again u are not reading everything, it was not 30whp just from the regrind, and im not talking about grinding to Jspec specs, I am talking about a little more aggressive that will still keep the power band broad and not push it all the way up. Also inclided in the 33whp gain was a good port and polish job on the heads which does lossen alot of hp on some cars.

why would i show you how to bore a head, i read that that tea did it and had no reason to disbelieve them since the article was in Sportcompactcar and their specs have all been checked by the SCCA. And yes their particular car was 210whp with a redline of 8 grand so it was a 5-7grand engine, but that also enables them to lossen more power in the future still without going forced induction, as race engines should be.

the only reason I believe NA is safer than boost is cause of the basic funtions of a turbo, it forces pressure and heat back into the engine. NA doesnt do this, it actually increase flow and increase the cool air going into the system. yes an intercooler setup helps this but Im talking about those starter systems of 4-5psi that run with an FMIC.

also to make sure you are getting these maximum gains that I am so unrealistically talking about your engine has to be tuned very nicely to make suure you ahve everything running to its full potential, better pistons with a slightly raised compression can help this but that is only a small part of the tuning.

I dont mind if u dont believe me, I was trying to help the person that originally asked the question in the first post to give him an idea of what some people are doing NA. and what is possible even if some dont Think so. skeptic or asshoel its not what u say its how u say it, but im tired and have a headache thats been around for 5 days so I might be an asshole too right now.

[p5sundevil]

ok for those that care I am rereading the article in SCC about roger Foo's p5, ill listwhat they did....

-custom aluminum log style intake manifold
-engine is blueprinted and has enough of the heads and block to bring compression to 13:1(using new forged pistons)
-they didnt align bore the block since it is nice at factory setting, they left stock crank bolts but massaged the crank and webs to ensure oil flow
crossdrilled and slotted holes in crank to ensure enough oil flow at new rpm(redline-9500)
-new oil cooler
-crank fillets are rolled and shot peened for durablity.
-forged rods
-new valves(SS)
-most imprtant part=100's of hours of flow work on the heads, tuning to increase flow and better temps.
-port and polish(.75 inches from set, 1inch from flange)
-custom intake and exhaust system as well as custom cams(big pwr boost here)
-new valvetrain components and well as mazdaspeed lifter buckets which is what increase the rpm limiter.
quote
"It's puting out excess of 225hp @ 7800rpm, the way it's currently set up. But more is coming."

yes it is a 5grand engine but they have done half of what they can to it and are already at 225hp.

I should probably say I only listed engine mods, between suspension and chassis stiffness and all the other race mods needed it was quite expensive, but I dont see anyone doing those mods around here.

[twilightprotege]

100's of hours of work on the head, yep i'd beleive that. for sure

there is so so so much power to be gained in the head of a mass produced car like ours....i'll be able to show everyone what a little porting does for the power of my car in late october. and this is only a small port job compaired to what they would have done

[Darin]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
100's of hours of work on the head, yep i'd beleive that. for sure

Local shop rate here is $60/hr...


Math is a bitch :D

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
ok again u are not reading everything, it was not 30whp just from the regrind, and im not talking about grinding to Jspec specs, I am talking about a little more aggressive that will still keep the power band broad and not push it all the way up. Also inclided in the 33whp gain was a good port and polish job on the heads which does lossen alot of hp on some cars.

Cams and Headwork =30hp = :bs:



Originally posted by p5sundevil

why would i show you how to bore a head, i read that that tea did it and had no reason to disbelieve them since the article was in Sportcompactcar and their specs have all been checked by the SCCA. And yes their particular car was 210whp with a redline of 8 grand so it was a 5-7grand engine, but that also enables them to lossen more power in the future still without going forced induction, as race engines should be.

I'm saying show me a GUY who spent LESS Than it'd cost to turbo the car for the same results. Show me a guy who spent less than $5000 for 50whp.



Originally posted by p5sundevil

the only reason I believe NA is safer than boost is cause of the basic funtions of a turbo, it forces pressure and heat back into the engine. NA doesnt do this, it actually increase flow and increase the cool air going into the system. yes an intercooler setup helps this but Im talking about those starter systems of 4-5psi that run with an FMIC.

You are comparing apples to oranges. a 4-5psi turbo on a Protege = about 150whp. Those kits can be had for a couple thousand dollars. Show me a 150whp Protege with $2000 in Naturally Aspirated mods. Anytime you create more power, you create more heat.


Originally posted by p5sundevil

also to make sure you are getting these maximum gains that I am so unrealistically talking about your engine has to be tuned very nicely to make suure you ahve everything running to its full potential, better pistons with a slightly raised compression can help this but that is only a small part of the tuning.


And is it 'free' to tune? What is there to tune?


Originally posted by p5sundevil
I dont mind if u dont believe me, I was trying to help the person that originally asked the question in the first post to give him an idea of what some people are doing NA. and what is possible even if some dont Think so. skeptic or asshoel its not what u say its how u say it, but im tired and have a headache thats been around for 5 days so I might be an asshole too right now.

Just present accurate information. In order for this guy to get his Protege to even 150whp he'd need at least several thousand dollars in cams, port/polish work, Flow Bench time, labor, ECU work, New, higher compression pistons, valve springs, and fuel upgrades. Several thousands of dollars.

Or, he can buy a simple off-the-shelf turbo system.

See?

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
ok for those that care I am rereading the article in SCC about roger Foo's p5, ill listwhat they did....

-custom aluminum log style intake manifold
-engine is blueprinted and has enough of the heads and block to bring compression to 13:1(using new forged pistons)
-they didnt align bore the block since it is nice at factory setting, they left stock crank bolts but massaged the crank and webs to ensure oil flow
crossdrilled and slotted holes in crank to ensure enough oil flow at new rpm(redline-9500)
-new oil cooler
-crank fillets are rolled and shot peened for durablity.
-forged rods
-new valves(SS)
-most imprtant part=100's of hours of flow work on the heads, tuning to increase flow and better temps.
-port and polish(.75 inches from set, 1inch from flange)
-custom intake and exhaust system as well as custom cams(big pwr boost here)
-new valvetrain components and well as mazdaspeed lifter buckets which is what increase the rpm limiter.
quote
"It's puting out excess of 225hp @ 7800rpm, the way it's currently set up. But more is coming."

yes it is a 5grand engine but they have done half of what they can to it and are already at 225hp.



$5,000 in PARTS alone - probably MORE. Labor rates are anywhere from $50-80/hr across the country. You can read that list and think that it's somehow easier or safer to build up NA??? Wasn't Hi-Boost showing a ~$5,000 turbo system with 250whp/300ft-lbs???

[boostisgood]

easiest way to sum it up. It will cost you upwards of 6-7k to get an NA motor to a respecable 225whp.

Sorry bro, its a nice idea, and would work, if you had the money, and time. Also, those engines in the SCCA Pro's need rebuilt every 3-4 races. They go through 3 prebuilts a season. Watch Speed channel, and they mention every race Foo Man runs in. :D

[p5sundevil]

actually accordinf to them the tranies is all they go through because they are left stock and not built up, it seems pretty obvious to me as much as they did in pwr gain mods they did in mods to make the engine able to handle it.

4-5psi for 150whp ur talking 2k to 2600. for that amount of money i will almost definately be able to make 150whp also.

as for the money it is all about hookups,. most people wouldnt have headwork done to their cars unless they were either racing or had a hookup to do it so the cost/gain ratio isnt totally whack.

We will just have to see, the reason u havent seen people doing it NA is because it is easier to buy a turbo KIT that straps on and gives the same results. Once the car ghas had a while for those people who want NA gains only to have had time to build up their cars we will see who is doing what with what parts and labor.

since there aren;t people like that yet we will have to wait to see.

[boostisgood]

Actually, there is an army green civic here doing low 12's on street tires, and mid 11's on slicks. ALL MOTOR. He works for a shop, and does all his own work, so there is his hookup. He has dopped about 3-4k for parts though. It is also a b-18c5 outta of teg typer-r. So he was pretty close to 160 whp right out of the box. :D

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
4-5psi for 150whp ur talking 2k to 2600. for that amount of money i will almost definately be able to make 150whp also.

Never happen. You'd be lucky to spend $2500 and get to 140whp. Lucky. Chances are, you'd hover around the 130 mark.

HiBoost claims 200+WHP for $3500. (shrug).

[p5sundevil]

b18c5 engines stock should be making 200-210hp N/A stock.

I believe it is the other b18 engine, the b maybe that makes 160 at the wheels, that is one from the GSR i think.

never happen, maybe not, but ill have fun trying and if it does happen Ill just be proud of it. I plan on running boost eventually anyway but I wanted to make 150-160whp before hand with some built up internals. I really dont care what ur opinion is at this point cause u seem to be making assumptions off of nothing.

and thats 3500 before install, gauges, and all the little things like electronic controllers to safely maintain that stuff.

plus I am basing this off of continued deals I have been getting, 2.5" cat back exhaust system for 140, the header is next and my custom CAI was 45 with the extra brackets and work I did to make it run exactly like the injen.

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Darin
Never happen. You'd be lucky to spend $2500 and get to 140whp. Lucky. Chances are, you'd hover around the 130 mark.

HiBoost claims 200+WHP for $3500. (shrug).

Phantom Cruiser, a member of the Pclub, gained ~25whp with J-spec cams and a header (125.8whp/131 Lb/ft of torque) ...less than $600 in parts, and her boyfriend did the work...

This has been beaten to death...With a new E6X, 10.5:1 compression, j-spec cams (to keep the costs down), and a header...I will put money down you will be right at 150whp for about $1800 if you can do everything yourself...The ECU makes up more than 60% of that cost, and you could raise the compression to more like 11.2:1, more agressive custom cams, intake and 2.75" diameter cat-back and be looking at more like 175whp NA...after that an FS will not rev enough to make more power...but the latter will still be no more than $2500 in parts...

FWIW, those Speed Car's engines are so expensive becuase they are pretty much the only people to do it...Lots of custom work and trial and error...A lot of the internals are forged, which IS expensive, but if they were readily available parts (such as on most Honda engines) they wouldn't be paying $17,000 per engine...

[p5sundevil]

darin is just gonna come back with some remarks to try to prove u wrong with his opinion.

im done here with going back and forth it is a nvr ending discusion.
I plan on doing all the mods myself pretty much, I will just wait and see what my work does for me in the end.

[Darin]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
I really dont care what ur opinion is at this point cause u seem to be making assumptions off of nothing.

Exactly right. Nothing. You have NOTHING which supports your claims that's it's JUST as cost-effective, and SAFER to build a motor Naturally Aspirated, dollar for HP. I'm saying you have NOTHING to support that. If that bothers you, show me.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Installshield 2
Phantom Cruiser, a member of the Pclub, gained ~25whp with J-spec cams and a header (125.8whp/131 Lb/ft of torque) ...less than $600 in parts, and her boyfriend did the work...


What were the conditions of the dyno? State of tune of the car? Any other mods? which dyno? Same dyno before and after?

Thanks! That's 'data'...that's something I can understand - NOT this kid shouting about "they" and "people" and "I know a guy" or whatever...

[p5sundevil]

so because i knew the person who had the data but didnt have it at the time myself that is automatic reason to disbelieve someone?

good job being a pesimist, life must suck for u.

[uclap5]

tempers flaring.

calm downs the both of ya's. you've got different opinions. just respect each others opinions.

just prove the naysayers wrong sundevil and it will be the end of the discussion. :)

[SpicyMchaggis]

haha i love darin...he has my attitude..but with the knowledge to back it up..go darin its yo birfday..he is right though..so dont triffle

[twilightprotege]

so darin, how much do you think i'll get increase in whp to my engine if i do the following from what i have now....

1) custom cams - 264deg@0.006", 222@0.050", 0.365" of lift for both intake and exhaust cams, and
2) headwork - Port and polish cylinder head, Face valves and stone seats, Match port manifold, and Machining the head to increase the compression ratio to 10.0:1 (aussie cars have 9.7:1 as standard), and CC head ... this head work is going to cost me $800aud - about $520usd

i'd be very interested to see what increase you think i'll get from the cams alone, then the cams and headwork...

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Darin
What were the conditions of the dyno? State of tune of the car? Any other mods? which dyno? Same dyno before and after?

Thanks! That's 'data'...that's something I can understand - NOT this kid shouting about "they" and "people" and "I know a guy" or whatever...

I am not positive on all of the conditions, she did post them at one point, but searching on that board these days does not return much...Her completely stock pull showed 100.3whp/108.5lb/ft of torque...from what I remember she lived in North Carolina and these were posted the day after the pull (last spring, and these were in a pdf format for download and they seemed legitimate when compared to other stock FS pulls)...So assume high humidity and roughly sea-level elevation...According to her, the car was completely stock for the first run, and then did another pull the same day with a universal Magno-flow muffler (which returned no significant increases in power)...She then had a Bosal header retro-fitted from a 93-97 Probe SE, and J-spec intake cam (stock ZE cam) and MSP exhuast cam installed. These were the mods that returned the 125.8whp etc...I am just like you, it takes credible evidence to convince me on any mod...

She said the car had roughly 7,000 miles on it when the mods were performed...Sorry man that is the only info I have on that car...

Also I wasn't trying to be a dick in my earlier post, I was in the middle of homework and was really pissed off...So I am sorry about that...

For some reason it seems like a lot of car tuners tend to favor one form of tuning (FI or NA), and argue relentlessly about which is safer, which is "better", and which is cheaper...There is no arguing with Darin on this...To get MAXIMUM power there is no cheaper way than Turbocharging...but some people are not looking for maximum power...A lot are looking for the best hp/$$ ratio which is by far Nitous...also some of us are looking for instant response and no lag (such as me)...If you know your way around an FS, some decent gains can be made for relatively cheaply with NA mods...You will never make an FS as powerful as even HiBoost's mild kit while remaining NA, and you shouldn't even consider tying to reach their 13lb kit...If you want decent power and excellent response combine the two...I have mentioned this a lot, but a stand alone ecu with a High compression low boost setup will yeild a NA feel with great torque and power (when compared to a fully NA FS)...

Both tuned NA engines and trubo'd engines can be reliable, and both can be very unreliable...It's the tuning, so which is safer depends on how you go about organizing your setup and the decisions you make...Sorry for this annoying shit, but the fighting gets redundant and does not help anything...

In short, an FS is a decent startingpoint for NA.. decent, not great...Overall it is more likely that it is a better starting point for a turbo...But in my opinion it has some potential, it is just ridiculously strangled by North America's needs for low end torque (for those of you sitting in the slow seat, that is why your 2.0L revs like a thermostat)..Install the J-spec cams, get rid of the stock downpipe and get a decent intake and you will have about 28whp extra...We finally have proof of that...

[twilightprotege]

very well put installsheild....

[Installshield 2]

Thanks man...

[5speedP5]

Installshield-Very well put, imo
twighlight, im intrested to see how everything goes with your engine

Overall i cant believe the overwhelming response of this thread... stupid protegeclub would have never had this much discussion. But anyways, darin especially, im not looking at cost to hp, im looking at reliabilitiy in the sake of not going turbo (yea turbo can be reliable, my other car is going to be, but the FS is too weak imo stockish). Im just looking to make a good % more power than stock with out going turbo, maybe even a little nitrous later. If i could get this car into the mid 14s with out a turbo i would be happy. And i believe it is possible now, with a header and a good set of cams and some headwork i believe it can be done.

[twilightprotege]

yeah that's why i've always stayed on this thread. it's almost entirely 3rd gen related and there are a lot of other well informed people floating around...

anyway, i'm sure you could get mid 14's w/o turbo

still waiting to hear what darin reckons my hp run will yield after cams, and cams and headwork

[jaman]

So people always talk about 'lag' on turbo engines. So if you tune a NA engine for big horsepower (meaning high rpm), won't you have super 'lag' at about 2.5k rpm before the engine finaly starts to develope some real power (a la Honda S2k).

This is comparing apples to apples, so no downshifting, just cruise at 2.5k rpm in 3rd gear and mash the throttle, who gets to the good part of the powerband sooner, small turbo or modded NA?

[twilightprotege]

modded na....coz you wont need to wait a time for the turbo to spool up. the closer you are to the peak hp in a na car, the more noticable this will be

[5speedP5]

it all really depends on what kind of power band you NEED, or power you're looking for. this is always a common misconception when it comes to hondas especially, imo. The high end powerband they have seems rediculous for most of us, but you think (in case of the type rs, s2000, etc) these cars were designed as a track car, you're gonna want more power up high, and more area to work with. atleast this is my perseption of it all. so in general having to rev the piss out if it can be usefull sometimes :D

haha my stupid useless thoughts.... oh well

anyways, from what ive been seeing, the missing links on our FS engines seem to really be the lack of a good header (no longer), some headwork, and a set of highlift cams (not the mazdaspeeds or ze cams)

[Big D]

This is where the Phantom Cruiser info is if anyone is interested.

http://www.redshark1.com/phantom.html

Big D

[Synthesis5]

must agree on the amount of informed people on the boards, their very very helpful. the way im going is n/a, just becasue i like to add little things at a time, and not have to put down a payment of of 3 to 5k on a turbo. i dont know, its not that i dislike turbos or anything. my 5 is the first car i actually took seriously in modding, so i quess i just want to go both ways, and the five is going n/a. the next car, if all works out, will go turbo. just my 2 cents on how i see it. (rockon)

[DooMer_MP3]

The title of this thread is Possibilities going N/A. And there are definitely possibilities. 130whp is already possible with under a grand in mods. I can see with proper tuning at least 150whp, and thats really all I want.

The problem with turbo for me is to do it right and not risk a blown motor, you need to have proper tuning right off the bat, and its not cheap. I'm not saying NA isn't cheap either, but you can do it in steps. I don't think I'll ever have $5k at once for a properly tuned turbo setup. But I can easily buy something here and there and slap it on.

Chris

[5speedP5]

you know, thats exactly what im thinking, im not looking to spend a big chuck at once, just a little here and there, and 150whp.... thats all i want too... and if thats possible, then im happy

[Darin]

People to talk about "Having to wait for the turbo to spool" have not driven a properly turbo'd vehicle. My PGT can go from zero boost to 8psi in less than 500rpms.

[IainK]

As another Aussie, we're deprived of the Mazda piston engine-tuning parts you Yankee guys have. I'm keeping mine an NA cause insurance is a bitch ($AUD1470 per year with a $AUD1000 payment if I make a claim).

Yes, turbos are beaut if you want the best dyno-queen, but you gotta remember, this chassis wasn't built to withstand 250whp+. I know this as I've talked to one of my colleagues who works for a sister magazine & DESIGNED the MX-5/Miata, You might have heard of him: Bob Hall...
He told me bout the Pro5 and all, and it was his advice that made me choose this over a 1980s Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 or Evo. He also said two very interesting things:

The 1.6L makes responds really well to supercharging, giving it the torque to compete with 2.0L in driveability

The 2.0L 5-door can be tuned really hard in NA or Turbo, but the quickest STREET car the engineers found was a mild-tune NA (intake, cams, ECU, exhaust, etc) with LSD, good suspension mods, hi-po tyres, big brakes

[twilightprotege]

i'm with you synthesis. what i'm actually going is build up my motor to be as strong as possible, with every mod being the last i'll do to is (like the cams i'm getting ground at the moment)....and once the car is all completed, turbo is the very very very last mod. it'll be like icing on the cake

[twilightprotege]

iaink, god that's a shocker....email me with your rating etc for your insurance and i'll see what i can do (i work for suncorp) - if i didnt get staff discount we can do $850 per year with $350xs

so darin, back to my previous posts......what power do you think my mods will give???????

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Darin
People to talk about "Having to wait for the turbo to spool" have not driven a properly turbo'd vehicle. My PGT can go from zero boost to 8psi in less than 500rpms.

A KL V6 (such as that in a PGT) has a much better exhuast pulse rate (it has 500 more cc's of displacement, and two more cylinders which immensely helps turbo spool-up compared to a FS), which is why you have very little lag...Any small displacement four cylinder engine will suffer from noticable low or throttle-on lag with a turbo capable of compressing more than 5-6psi...depending on compressor and turbine size it can be very annoying or just minor...

You are correct that with research and hours of viewing comressor graphs and maps, that a proper turbo can be chosen for the application which will almost illiminate lag on a FS...Your KL has little or no lag for more reasons than just a correct turbo...

[5speedP5]

*BUMP* :D

[Installshield 2]

Yeah, these NA discussions seem to get great traffic and then bite it within a few hours...

[igdrasil]

the problem with most people that makes comments, is that they just do NOTHING.

To denial, not believe, or just being skeptical will not help.

Some claim what they think, most people is so convinced of it, start arguing about stuff they THINK THEY KNOW...that is just plain ridiculous.

MOD THE CAR....and lets see what you can get out of it.

Im turbo now, but i still want to see how good this car performs in N/A...because I may get bored with the turbo and return to N/A setup.

I just cant test stuff because...you know, im turbo.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Installshield 2
...Your KL has little or no lag for more reasons than just a correct turbo...

Actually, my turbo is VERY MUCH too small for my motor - it's off the map.

There are guys with larger turbos hitting 290whp at 6-7psi...On paper their turbo's are sized right...I do OWN them down low, however :)

[twilightprotege]

i'm still waiting for darin to tell me what power my mods will give

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Darin
Actually, my turbo is VERY MUCH too small for my motor - it's off the map.

There are guys with larger turbos hitting 290whp at 6-7psi...On paper their turbo's are sized right...I do OWN them down low, however :)

What setup did you go with...I used to own a red 93 Probe GT and I wish protege's had that v6 as an option...The only pre-made kit when I had mine was the Knight engineering system from what I remember, but I heard that dude was shady at best...So I never went the turbo route...I was either going to buy a KL-ZE and pretty much restore the whole car, or buy a new car...in the end I just bought a P5...

[Darin]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
i'm still waiting for darin to tell me what power my mods will give

That's dumb. Go to a freakin dyno.


/me looks into his crystal ball -


Your mods will give your car 17whp.


:-/

[Darin]

Originally posted by Installshield 2
What setup did you go with...I used to own a red 93 Probe GT and I wish protege's had that v6 as an option...The only pre-made kit when I had mine was the Knight engineering system from what I remember, but I heard that dude was shady at best...So I never went the turbo route...I was either going to buy a KL-ZE and pretty much restore the whole car, or buy a new car...in the end I just bought a P5...

Knight is shit...nothing but junk-yard parts and bad welds. :(

wanna buy my car? :D

It's a completely custom system, built on the car by www.turbotechnologyinc.com in Tacoma, WA. Last I heard they charge $5500 to build the system on cars. I'd sell you my whole car, and pay half shipping for that! :D

[twilightprotege]

darin, i was just waiting for you to predict what power my mods will make because you appear to be a big skeptic of na cars and mods. you came into this thread and just started calling BS on everyone's claims. fair enough proof is good to have, but just calling BS because people dont have proof...hmmmmmmm

and i quote from your first post in this thread...."we just talked about this...a couple weeks ago. There is no way to make decent power NA - without spending $10,000 or MORE...even then, we are talking 30-50hp improvement, max."

we'll see.....

[twilightprotege]

ok boys and girls, my new cams are in my hand.....here are the specs

lift (intake and exhaust) 0.351

duration @
.010" 273deg
.020" 250deg
.050" 226deg
.100" 199deg
.200" 147deg
.300" 83deg

cams will be installed this coming saturday...will let you know the results.

[Installshield 2]

sounds good...Not sure of the numbers off hand, but they seem pretty big...I am assuming emission tests are not an issue, meaning you don't have to have "sniffer" tests in Australia?

[p5sundevil]

sorry for being a n ub for technical numbers but exactly how much(relatively not exactly i guess) more agressive are those cams than say mazdaspeed or Jspec(I know Jspec are almost as weak as ours).

Btw, how much did it end up costing for the grind job?

edit: also Im very jealous, this is one of the 3-4 big things I want to do to my car including headwork, downpipe or header and maybe an intake manifold and I am eager to see ur results. GL

[twilightprotege]

yeah it's a case of emissions tests? what emission tests? every now and then you see them, but they only pull over older cars. i have never ever seen a car less than 10 years old pulled over.

just to compair to stock numbers
intake is 198deg of duration @0.050" and has 0.341" of lift
exhaust is 200deg @0.050" and has 0.323" of lift

so what i'm getting is a huge (in terms of cam profiles) increase over stock. i'll definately loose some power down low, but will have a large increase up high - i'm guessing atleast 15whp. ofcourse as soon as i've run the cams in and dyno'd them i'll be scanning the sheet and posting it here asap. i'm looking forward to it

the jspec intake is slightly more than stock intake, exhaust is the same.

the grinding ended up costing me $280aud - that's about $185usd going on today's exchange rate.

[1sty]

I have seen a few claims made here that I did not see backed up.

1. was the claim of a 130 whp for less then $1000. Please elaberate with mods and dynos for th esame car, base lined then with the mods.

2. NA is a viable option to turbo as for cost. Spoolins Stage 1 system will do over 150 whp and for less then $2600, can anyone best that with an NA motor and less money into it? Again dynos are needed here.

[Installshield 2]

Yeah I read up on those numbers real quickly...Your gains will be nuts for the price you paid!!...You did your homework didn't you? The duration is significantly longer than stock AND the J-spec cams...and the combination of Aussie cars having a higher static compression ratio will hopefully make up for the intake valves closing even later A-BDC, thus "bleeding off" compression into the intake port...If I confused anyone, higher compression is needed becuase with these cams the intake valves are opened LONGER once the piston starts to squeeze the fuel and air...so some of the fuel and air is pushed back up into the head...

FWIW these are probably too agressive for us North American men, so people going with custom cams with a compression ratio of 9.2:1 should probably look into a little less duration profile...The Aussies are one step ahead by having a higher compression ratio already...And this is an excellent cam profile for running an extremely high compression ratio safely, so Twilight if you decide to raise the compression further, you probably won't have to worry about new cams...

I am still researching the rest of the numbers, I can't find all of my notes on the stock cams right now...

[twilightprotege]

yes - lots and lots and lots of homework ;) very happy with what i've been able to do there. for sure - our 9.7:1 compression will definately help out. i'm so very interested in what gains i get from just swapping the cams will be with no exhaust mods at all. just dont forget what i paid you need to add on the cost of blank cams as well...

i guess i'm really lucky to have one of australia's top cam grinders in my city. all he does is cams, nothing else...his factory is huge (i counted 26 machines this morning when i was there). i had numerous talks to the guy (his father started the business 40 something years ago) about what i want now and what i want to do in the future.

1st - i cant confirm any claims i have made yet. i have a base dyno (a few mods) of 103.5whp. i will dyno after the cams have been installed (if valve clearance is ok ofcourse). this time next month i'll have a ported head as well. i will also dyno after that.

[1sty]

Originally posted by twilightprotege


1st - i cant confirm any claims i have made yet. i have a base dyno (a few mods) of 103.5whp. i will dyno after the cams have been installed (if valve clearance is ok ofcourse). this time next month i'll have a ported head as well. i will also dyno after that.

Cool, sounds like a plan.

[twilightprotege]

just so you know what i'm doing for head mods - port and polish cylinder head, face valves and stone seats (3 angle valve seat job), match port manifold, and machining the head to increase the compression ratio to 10.0:1. i've been quoted $750aud for this work - that's about $500usd

[p5sundevil]

for 500 usd that is alot of work, especially if it same quality as yours cams.

I dont know how the cost breakdown is for that but would it be more worth it to not machine the heads and get Jspec or custom pistons, cause I heard the Jspec compression was over 10:1....yup just checked corksport and they are 10.4:1 for 180 a set. Wonder how that compares to machining in price breakdown


I would like to do a port and polish as well as some valve work, no machining, if I do want to raise compression Ill use an E6K(or the like) or Ill get Jspec pistons....maybe.

A question though, was there something in particular that made you decide to do the cams now and the headwork later, like one should be done before the other, or is it personal preference?

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by 1st MP3 in NH
I have seen a few claims made here that I did not see backed up.

1. was the claim of a 130 whp for less then $1000. Please elaberate with mods and dynos for th esame car, base lined then with the mods.


I think I made that claim...

I am fully aware that it is very difficult to make an unbiased, persuasive argument without adequate proof...I have no proof...the only thing I can provide is a compilation of various mods made by different owners who actually did get their car dyno'd...but again nobody has that I know of has acutally dyno'd their car with all of the mods I have listed together...so you have to piece all the gains together more or less...

alright so we know that a certain Pclub girl recieved roughly ~23whp from simply a modified bosal header (flange bolt diameters, it was from a Probe SE and would not fit a P5 without these dimensions being changed...nothing was modified to increase performance or anything tricky), a J-spec ZE intake cam, and MSP sport 20 exhuast cam...that brought her numbers to right about 121whp...The price was $180 for the intake cam, the exhuast was $130, and the header was from a different car...So expect to pay between $300 and $500 yourself...assuming you go with a cheaper header you have only spent $610 to gain about 20whp...next buy a GOOD diamter exhuast for a mild NA build up...The Racing Beat would be my first choice (60mm in diameter, about 2.375", perfect for marrying to basic botl-ons)...so that is another $400...(this could be achieved also with a cheaper custom mandrel bent, non-stainless exhuast system also), Most Pclub members that dyno'd with just that exhuast gained as much as 7whp, but bare in mind that the combination of defeating the stock down-pipes restrictions will allow the exhuast pulse rate to flow much more efficiently and quickly, and the increase diamter of the Racing Beat exhuast will give even more gains....so put shortly the combination of a header and the RB will make the RB give even higher gains than if done alone...with any money left over you could build a custom intake with a universal K&N cone filter...I am not going to get into progressive intake diamters and specs in this right now, but if you do a lot of research you can build a short-ram out of parts from Lowes that could give you as much as 5whp for $80...You don't have to do the intake to get to 130whp...that would probably push you over 130whp a bit, but for $910 you can have 130whp (maybe 128whp, maybe 133whp, maybe 131whp etc...varies from car to car)...You can play around with those prices too...If you want the $500 AWR header, then go with a custom non-stainless exhuast at roughly 60-65mm diameter...gains will probably be similar between all the long tube headers though...

[twilightprotege]

sundevil, i dont want to change the pistons just yet because down the track i will be turboing the car. everything i am doing now to my car is aimed towards turbo.

i was actually planning on doing cams and head at the same time, but i have spread them out by a month so my credit card is happy and also it will give me the opportunity to run in the cams so they are nice and ready for head work - also, if valve clearance is slightly more than what it should be, the place where i'm getting the head work done can make new valve shims to make the clearance perfect.

i'm hoping after cams and headwork, i'll be getting close to 130whp.....it's funny because i'm trying to do that without touching the exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat

[accuser]

i don't like debating about what makes more power... so here is the solution to all your problems... build up your motor N/A (mild stuff... cams [with a big lift], port out the head and intake manifold.... lightened fly wheel and a nice stage 3 clutch... shouldn't cost much... around $1800) throw on a thick copper head gasket and the www.hiboost.com turbo kit ($3995.00) this kit is intercooled... and has everything you need... BOV wastegate manifold oil lines.... you can bsicaly bold this bad boy on... now you've spent under $6000 and you've got yourself about 250whp and a protege that looks so stock... but with that little hint of intercooler that all the honda heads sweat... yes that's right... we've built a sleeper for under 6 grand... assuming you are doing the work yourself... (oh... and don't run more then 7lbs of boost... i heard the internals on this motor are very frail... )

[DooMer_MP3]

So what would be good custom cam specs for us U.S. men? :). Obviously this isn't an easy question to answer, but I suppose we can derive them from what twilightprotege has come up with for his slightly higher compression.

The thing I worry about are the stock valves and float. We shall see. Twilight, you have no idea how much I look forward to your install/dyno :p.

1st MP3 In NH,
Yes, we don't have any proof just yet, but I think it'll be coming soon. I don't know what I want to do just yet. The thing is I have no money, so everything is on hold until next spring. Spool's new stage 1 looks so damn sweet. But I need to do the P5 ECU swap, and a new clutch.

Otherwise I'll do a header and custom cams next spring. I already have an intake. Exhaust will depend on the header. If I go Racing Mazda, I think the MP3 axle back will suit me fine since that header eliminates both cats. If I do OBX (if they really become available) I'd probably do a Bosal or Magnaflow exhaust.

So:
AEM Intake - $160
RM Header (no exhaust) ~ $380
OBX Header and exhaust - $200 + $400 = $600
Custom cams ~ $400 (blanks + grind)

I should be able to install this all by myself or help of a friend.

So for $940 (RM header) or $1160 (OBX Header and exhaust) I really think I will see 30whp easily based on what I've seen here lately. If peoples' dynos suck, well then they suck and our arguments suck and we're a bunch of damn idiots. It'll be hard to decide though. I got blown by by a WRX the other day and that thing sounded mean :p.

Chris

[freekwonder]

mainly for twilightprotege, but i had a question about the valve train. Im looking at getting rid of my j-spec cams and getting some definetly hotter ones. but what is the most lift/duration the stock valvetrain can handle? and what about shims? i know somebody sells the fs-ze valvetrain is it any different from the fs-de valvetrain?

[Installshield 2]

from what I remember the ZE and DE heads are exactly the same other than the cams...

Doomer, the stock springs should keep float at bay even with pretty aggressive cams...The 1.47 con ratio of an FS will never allow it to rev high enough to make valve float too much of a problem...

[twilightprotege]

doomer, i would say a suitable cam with your lower stock compression in the lines if what i have is about 5deg of duration less at 0.050"...that would give maybe 7deg less at 0.010", hardly anything at 0.300". lift is good. ofcourse you can go for what i've got, but you wont beable to take full advantage of the cams. by the way, i'm really looking forward to the dyno too :) i'll make sure i take heaps and heaps of piccies of what i'm doing and i'll try and do a how to

freekwonder, i personally wouldnt go any more than 0.360" of lift on stock springs. they can probably handle more than that, but at high rpm i'm sure you'll start to get a very small amount of valve float because the springs arent stiff enough to follow the cam back into place. valve float is certainly something i dont want. shims can handle whatever the hell you wanna do...all they are good for is adjusting the clearance between the cam and the tappet

installshield i'm pretty sure you're right about the ze and de heads. once i have overhauled the fs and bored the engine out by 3mm....9000rpm with a new ecu and nice lightweight internals will be no problems...that's when i'll be getting new valve springs, but while us aussie p5's are limited to 6500rpm, i'll have no issues.

[mp3moose]

I just want to subscribe to this thread.
moose

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by twilightprotege

installshield i'm pretty sure you're right about the ze and de heads. once i have overhauled the fs and bored the engine out by 3mm....9000rpm with a new ecu and nice lightweight internals will be no problems...that's when i'll be getting new valve springs, but while us aussie p5's are limited to 6500rpm, i'll have no issues.

You are kidding about the 9,000 rpm redline right, meaning that is not realistically your goal? This may be redundant, but an FS has a rod ratio of 1.47 so to put things short there is absolutely no way with the stock bottom end will tolerate speeds from about 7500 rpm and up...When I finally do have a standalone (or even better if AEM releases a EMS plug and play system for FS's) I will set the fuel cut at probably no higher than 7400rpm...Also all the head work and the biggest cams will still not allow an engine with that ratio to breathe at those rpms...The rod ratio creates very little piston "dwell" BDC and TDC and it is always scavaging for air and fuel at high speed...This is the main reason your cams are so perfect...our rod ratio requires longer duration and overlap, with a nice bump in compression in order to breathe on an "acceptable" level...

Now if you are fronting the cash to have a custom crank forged with more rev happy rod ratio's and a full engine balance, I stand corrected...I was just reffering to the stock internals, anything is possible if you have the money...but this is the reason why the World Challenge Protege's engines are so expensive...takes a lot of cash to get them to rev high...

[twilightprotege]

Now if you are fronting the cash to have a custom crank forged with more rev happy rod ratio's and a full engine balance

there's the nail....you hit it right in the middle ;)

eventually i'll be getting lightweight rods, pistons, knife edging the crank and having the engine completely balanced (well as close to possible anyway). also increasing the piston size from 83mm to 86mm will definately help a lot

yes it'll cost a lot of money, but i'll save that money in the long run because the engine wouldnt require a rebuild as often. i want my final build to be bullet proof.

2 more sleeps til cams are installed ;)

[twilightprotege]

ps - i should add...i've gotta love it that my dad used to be a mechanic before he passed away - i know so many people that can help me....and i have all the tools i could ever need. hell 2/3 of my tools are up at my mum's place because i never use them!!!

[twilightprotege]

CAMS UPDATE....

well it's sunday night here in australia....no new cams installed. i had two issues.

number one, i was going off 2nd hand information about the cams and in particular the cam pins (pin for the camsprocket). i was told the intake and exhaust are exactly the same. well they arent. the exhaust pin is opposite the intake pin - ie it is 180deg different. this isnt a problem however, i'm just going to courier the cams back to my camshaft engineer to machine a hole where it should be and fill the old hole (to keep the cam balanced as much as possible).

second, the cam pins i have are the wrong size. once again not an issue, i'll just get the cam guy to get me other ones.

but for those eager for the how-to, i have started writing it up. i just need to take a few more pictures when i hopefully install the cams next weekend and i'll be done within about a week after that.

but i just have to say the cams i got are noticably bigger!!! the old cam lobes are like /\, straightish up to the peak and straightish down. the new cams is more like the top half of a O. much thicker throughout the lobe. shall be a very interesting first run next weekend!!!!

later

[twilightprotege]

camshaft install how to :
http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32015

[twilightprotege]

ok people, i have some news...

i wont have my cams installed until the weekend of october 18-19. i dont have enough time to get the cams organised, installed and dyno'd before i get the headwork started (7th of october), but the good news is that after the 19th of october i will have a rather powerful car....headwork AND cams.... :D :D :D

so i wont have a dyno run with just the cams, but i will try and get a dyno done shortly after the head and new cams are installed. that shall be very very interesting!!!

later

[igdrasil]

long time huh?


we will see then. good thinks takes time

good luck.

[green MP3]

/members/green MP3/dsc00573.jpg IF YOU BUILT IT , IT WILL COME.



HEy guys. I am new in this website but not to the FS engines.

I modified my engine by porting and polishing the Head, Intake
Manifold and throtle body, plusss i got Ovesize valves.
I can tell you that my car is running really sweet and that i can confirm that it really gives you alot of horses(for the non-believers). I also lighten my flywheel and got a scoop in my hood,so i got plenty of AIR. p5sundevil Said that our engines Have bottle neck parts..... Well he is totally right. This is one of the biggest problems that FS engines have and I already solved it. I am going to start selling intakes like the one you seen in my picture but before that i am going to Dyno my car to get all the right readings. I can assure you that the proteges Engines have alot of potencial, you just gotta find it.

[mp3moose]

Thats sweet green.

Any idea on cost for port and polish?

Moose

[p5sundevil]

i think someone in australia said he was getting a port and polish as well as a bunch of valve work for around 500 american. which is not bad for the headwork and valve work.

Im not sure how much on top of that work on the intake mani and stuff would be, any ideas on pricing green? I am very interested as it would be the only alternative to either having mine done or getting the Jspec which both options I dont like.

[Installshield 2]

some more NA bolt-on info...

Equinox, a member of this forum, has the excellent AWR header, an HKS 2.5" catback exhuast, and an Injen CIA (even with a bypass valve) on his P5 for a total output of 126whp/133lb/ft of torque...NO CAMS!!...he also has a lightwieght flywheel, but the dyno only showed about a 1/2whp for a 3rd gear pull, so that is expected...in 1st and second the car probably pulls much better...

So he is making roughly 155bhp for pretty cheap...and the restrictive cams and ECU haven't even been touched yet...

[green MP3]

(greenpro)


As you saw my intake was not just ported and polished but REDONE..... The normal intake has 8 holes and 8 throttles inside the manifold. allt of them were removed and the 8 holes were converted in to 4 big ones. I was very impressed with the Price in Autralia since it cost me way more than that, but also i need to remember that my head was completly changed since the valve seat had to be re-done (much bigger and wider) so the new valves could be fitted. i am goint to post a picture of it.

[green MP3]

here is my head LOL

[p5sundevil]

looks nice, the price i said before was just for a port and plish as well as valve work. it was not anything like what you described above changing the actual design of the holes and so forth.

I imagine that you are planning either big N/A numbers with work like that or huge boosted numbers with all that N/A buildup.

either way very nice work and I look forward to seeing the numbers you get, I have to start pricing out all the work I eventually want done.

[green MP3]

Hello guys again.

I just finished reading all the posts on this thread and i am very impressed by the knowledge of all you guys, fighting about going N/A or turbo was fun i think but both can achieve alot of gains.
I am new here and i haven't even introduce myself(bad manners)

I should start by saying that i have loved mazdas all my life and that my first one was an MX6 89 GT turbo, i had a lot of fun with that car and smoked alot of hondas with it :P ,then a MX3 V6 came along and so did the chicks :)) later my brother got an MX6 v6 93 and we were all a big happy family.
My granpa' and my father are both very good mechanics and well i was in their shop since i was 5 years old so even though my dad did not want me to be a mechanic i learned the trade and very good thanks to them and my mechanic blood. I don't do it as a profession but more for hobbie. I am an electronic technician and work in the avionics field but love to fix my cars or modified them.
I now own the only green MP3 in the USA. It was converted from an ES to Mp3 to the last bolt. It's green and mean now and it has a sunroof :). I bought a Blue MP3 wrecked from the roof and transfered all the parts to my ES (Susp, interior,rack and pinion,spoilers,ECU, transmision since it used to be an Automatic ES model, muffler, radio and speakers etc)
I also put a functional scoop, double rear wing spoilers and brembo drill/slotted rotors.
The Head was ported and polished and has ovesize intake valves(see picture and you will notice how they barely fit in the chamber)also the intake manifold was cut ported and polished.
the throttle was bored and polished and the flywheel was reduced in weight from 18.5 stock lbs to 14 lbs so i wouldn't loose too much torque like with the 9 lbs that they sell.
My car is running real nice but i do have to tune it up since i got too much air now and little fuel. When the engine reaches 4500 rpms it just takes off but before that it just asks for more fuel.
I am currently working on the fuel management system,injectors,fuel pressure and coming up with a much better spark system. having all of this done and tuned will make my car an N/A beast with no cams yet!!! later i will also go turbo intercooled and well that will give me enough power to go around.

since i have an extra engine with 11 k miles i am going to built a 450 hp engine for a friend of mine that is willing to pay for the parts. it will be completly re-done, from botton end to head so i will post it when i finish it. It will be fitted in a Protege 5....

For all of you i got just one question. Does the MP3 and the Mazdaspeed have the same pistons and are they forged oronly the Mazda speeds. I will thank you guys alot if you can answer this for me :))..

Anyway guys i am very impressed with all of you and keep making them fast,thrust me this engines can take it, the only weak parts are the Rods but the rest are strong as an oak.

And remember IF YOU BUILT IT, IT WILL RUN......

[green MP3]

By the way guys since i put all of this in my car for some reason
my car is limitting the revs to 7500 rpms or sometimes if i rev it real quick it will go even higher, I gotten it to 7900 one time.

i think it's just revving too fast and the ECU it's too slow to acknolege but either way i am very happy that this is happenig although i am not reving it more that 7k for safety.

Any ideas guys of the fenomenom????

[uclap5]

im very impressed green mp3. i hope you stay around to help us all out! :)

and as far as i know, you are the first to ever swap an auto to a manual on the 3rd gen protege (at least in the 2 major online message boards) and im sure some auto people would love to hear about it.


once again, Welcome! :)

[twilightprotege]

sundevil, yep i'm the aussie you speak of :) - head is going in for the work tuesday 7 october, will be reinstalled into the car 18-19 october....dyno shortly after

green, welcome! first of all, i was thinking about getting oversize valves, but have come to the conclusion i wouldnt really see much benefit...obviously there would be benefit, but unless i'm punching out huge figures, the cost/power ratio in my books isnt worth it. what mm oversize are your valves?
have you had a change to dyno your mp3 yet? should be very interesting ;)
sounds like you have plenty of knowledge to give to this board. i hope you hang around!

installshield - yeah i cant wait to see what my car pulls with head and cam work considering what equinox has got...but then again i havent touched the exhaust except for the gutted wu-cat

[mp3moose]

Green-
Sorry to bust your bubble, but I know a guy with a green mp3.
To answer your question, the msp and mp3 use the same engine. Thus no forged internals for anyone. But pauter does make rods and JE just released pistons for the fs engine.

Moose

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by mp3moose
Green-
Sorry to bust your bubble, but I know a guy with a green mp3.
To answer your question, the msp and mp3 use the same engine. Thus no forged internals for anyone. But pauter does make rods and JE just released pistons for the fs engine.

Moose

Both the MSP and MP3 have a forged crank, which is an internal...The MSP has slightly redesigned piston crowns, for better quench area, and also has slightly different connecting rods...still not forged...

FWIW the changes made to the FS-DE for the MSP were performed in 2002.5...so any 02.5 car has an identical FS internally to the MSP...The 02/01 FS-DE's, which is also what is in the MP3, are all the same...Every Protege 2.0L FS-DE is immensely better and stronger than any other car it was ever in...(Probe SE, 626's, MX-6 2.0Ls etc...)

[mp3moose]

Didn't know we had a forged crank. Thanks for the info.

Moose

[green MP3]

wow you know your stuff.....:)


thank you for that info man!!! it was very helpfull.


Green

[green MP3]

wow you know your stuff.....:)


thank you for that info man!!! it was very helpfull.


Green

[VividMP5]

Yo Green,

I see that you've made it here!!

[p5sundevil]

so my 03.5 p5 already has a forged crank, and the pistons have been worked?

I had been thinking not so long term plans of Jspec pistons or custom forged pistons raising the compression just a little. I dont know what I would have to do with that to do it safely but would this actually be helpful>?

I mean real real long term is a partial N/A buildup with small boost application making 200-215 at the wheels. so forged may be better all around.

[twilightprotege]

has anyone had their crank knift edged etc???

[twilightprotege]

knift edge...yeah i need to learn how to type proper. knife edge

[Installshield 2]

No problem green...

P5sundevil, little is known about what Mazda did to the connecting rods for the MSP prepped FS-DE's...I briefly read in a press release on the pclub that Mazda of Japan changed the pistons and connecting rods last minute with slightly redesigned pieces before the MSP' were shipped to Callaway...They were simply to allow for more even compression of boosted air/fuel, and for a more efficient flame kernal/expansion...It is not known if they are stronger, or if they added any benefit at all on the NA proteges, it was simply a last minute decision...

Currently the FS is by far one of the strongest (in terms of strength, not power) economy car engines on the market...Most newer engines are made out of aluminum, the FS is not...Some new engines will not tolerate more than a few bounces off of a limiter, the FS will...The engine can take a lot of abuse from Turbo's and revs...The connecting rods are the weakest link...After the 2nd gen 626's went under (98 was their last year I believe) the FS recieved a forged crank, and some other balls that made it much better than it use to be (namely the newer ignition system)...

So P5sun, don't drop the idea of raising the compression becuase of your different pistons...obviously the pistons didn't do a whole lot...The FS-DE (T) in MSP's still does not make 10hp/1psi, which is less than the going rate for the aftermarket systems...and most of those systems were dyno'd on pre 02.5 protege's...

Twilight, I don't know of anyone having the crank knife edged...It potentially could free up a lot of wieght, but I don't know how much our crank weighs anyway...could be good and light already...

[twilightprotege]

i'll have a chat to my cam guy - he does cranks as well. might take me a while to have a decent chat to him because i'm not going that way for a while, but when i can i'll let everyone know. i'm sure there is a lot of weight to be saved from the crank....

[twilightprotege]

hey guys...yet another update :

have taken the cams and most stuff outta my car. head and intake manifold will come off tomorrow (i need to buy a hex socket to get the head off on monday). tuesday i'll be taking the head to the porting guy and yay!!!!! i'll definately be re-installing the head and new cams on the weekend of 18-19th october.

and my original cams are now for sale : http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33899

[mp3moose]

Saweet, I want to know all about your cam specs. Let us know how it all turns out.

Moose

[Subghetto]

If you combined turbocharging with some engine work not insane crap like on real race cars but minor stuff like: pistons,cams,intake manifold, port-polishing, bolt-on parts etc. and Nitrous how much performance do you think one would yeild out of our p5's? I have to admit turbocharging seems to be the best way to get major power for one's $ but the problem with that is that you have to get forged pauter rods for the 2.0L motor if you plan on running higher boost or sustainnig higher revs. And that is mad expensive it almost cost as much as buying another turbo kit each rod is like $720 and one would have to buy 4 so that would be mad $$$$ like about $2,880 and that's w/o shippin I think


Internals (http://flyinmiata.com/protege/index.php?action=product&itemid=85450)

[twilightprotege]

it's all what if's, but in NA the P5 could put out 200whp with a lot of work

[PROTEGE_ES]

isn't it true that if you go turbo, you shouldn't do work to your engine? I heard that if you go turbo, intakes, 2.25" exhausts pipings, cams, and headers will make you loose power.

[p5sundevil]

well a header will be replaced by the exhaust manifold and a 2.25 exhaust can work for systems running 5 psi or less, 2.5 would be better, hiboost would be around 3.

cams and other things internal wont hurt you when u go boost, you just have to keep in mind that you do plan to get a turbo eventually and therefor adjust the specs properly.

[twilightprotege]

yes if you're planning on going turbo, ie me, engine work can still be of great benefit...because it's still a case of getting more air into the engine....you just need to tune the engine properly for turbo when it was originally tuned for NA. but i'm getting a stand alone ECU from haltech eventually so tuning will be much much easier.

[flat_black]

Twilight, when're you gonna post some pics of your newly ported head? I want news, dammit! ;)

[twilightprotege]

i'm getting the head back on monday if damn mazda finally sends the head shop the correct valve stem seals.

will take some piccies for everyone and i'll write up a bit of a speel saying my impressions etc etc

i just cant wait to dyno the damn thing!!!! :D

[glyph]

I, having a 1.8 pro, am concerned with the availability of parts and research. Being rather uneducated in the realm of engines, how much of the specifics apply to the 1.8?

Btw, reading this thread with GREAT interest. I am thinking along the lines of NA buildup with a turbo as "icing on the cake" as someone once posted...

[twilightprotege]

i beleive the 1.8 is simply a de-stroked 2.0L engine, so pretty much all parts are the same....

in relation to power possibilities, unfortunately there isnt much NA support compaired to FI. to get any real power with NA you're going to have to do things yourself - like get custom ground cams, get the head ported, intake manifold made up etc...there are a lot of ways to go

[Installshield 2]

The fact of most of the FS aftermarket being geared towards FI, it sucks that the ECU segment is going the cheap route...Most kits available only provide simple tricks to fool the stock ECU...

IMO this is the main reason the FS is regarded as a terrible NA engine...There are fundamental properties of it that make it appear as a not so perfect platform for all engine, but no one has really tried with a good standalone...I know there is at least decent power to be made NA...Exactly how much is still up in the air...but the fact of the stock ECU being fine for 7-8psi of boost or whatever makes a lot of people just claim that FI is the only way to go...If BOTH required a standalone, those people would probably claim the engine isn't a good platform for anything...

The FS is a decent engine, albeit old, but still good for adequate power...If we can get over 200bhp NA (roughly 170whp) on the stock displacement, which would be a bhp/Liter rating of over 100, it would not be a bad NA performer by any sense of the statement...and I bet with good research and smart investments it could easily be done...

[mp3moose]

Let me know about those cams man, and the head of course. I just need those two things and managment and I will be set. Well, and a header which is small potatoes. Anywho, I will an all N/A guy and would like to see the ball get rolling so I can follow in someone's foosteps. =)

Moose

[twilightprotege]

yes the FS is a good engine. the iron block is heavy, but very very strong.

i'm sort of half tempted to make replacing the ecu with a stand alone haltech my next performance mod to the car because it's something that i can just re-tune for turbo when i eventually go that way....and the fact that the haltech factory is 1/2 hour drive from me :D

[twilightprotege]

moose - i'll post my initial "feelings" when i install the head with the new cams monday night :D ..... well it better friggen be monday night unless mazda screws up again and sends the wrong valve stem seals to the head shop

[flat_black]

Hell yeah, man. =) Go get yourself a Haltech next; It'll make the port and polish job that much better! You'll be able to tune it at all, then you can dyno the hell out of the car. =)

[Installshield 2]

Andrew, I would definately agree with a Haltech being your next mod...You can get adequate gains on the stock engine with just better tuning...And by the time you have major mods performed, you will hopefully have learned how to use Haltech's goofy software...Mistakes in tuning are not nearly as costly with a minorly built engine, but if you wait until basically every machanical issue is overcome, a mistake in the ignition timing could make an expensive grenade...

[flat_black]

Very true. Tuning from a baseline setup is much easier than tuning from a nonexistant setup, then guestimating a good starting point. And with an engine that'll surely be almost new, that'll save everything from rapid initial wear.

Oh, are you putting in a new set of rods or anything while you have the engine apart? Just curious. =) Also, how much did the head work end up costing you?

[twilightprotege]

yeah it's sounding to me as if it'll be a goer...and also it's a good opportunity to persuade my fiancee that we need a laptop - she wants one, so woops, now we'll just have to get one ;)

it wont be until about this time next year. my fiancee and i are getting married in april next year so no more car mods for andrew until after then...but fingers crossed i'll have a promotion at my work by then aswell :D

[twilightprotege]

not doing anything internally while the head is off - dont have the money, and also i dont want to spend money on stuff (like HC pistons) when eventually i'll be going FI in a couple of years time. the head work alone is costing me around $1000aud - that's around $680usd....unfortunately you have to buy new gaskets on top of that and the only ones available in australia are genuine mazda crap so that's an extra $400aud.

next internal mod to the car will definately be knife edging the crank...there should be quite a bit to gain there

[curt2go]

This has been a very interesting discussion. i love it.. When I first came to this forum it was all about FI but the reason is that the N/A is not popular yet is that the parts arent their yet. But it seems like their is some pioneers ready to take the chalenge. I come from a chevy drag racing background. I have always built my own motors ported my own heads matching the intake and all those things.. This thread has seriously got me thinking about N/A. Another reason for some people going na is they run an auto not a manual. this is my case. i really don't want to put more than 160 WHP into my car for fear of trani problems. So i do have a couple of questions...

1) What is the best header?
2) and exhaust(Direct bolt on)?
3) and intake mani?
3) Where can you get the j-spec cams?
4) How much are the top end gasket set for the 2.0L?

I have a Ractive axle back system and an injen intake already..

I think if you can do alot of the work yourself and don;t get too carried away on the porting ther can be some horsepower. How much we will see in the near future. TTY

[twilightprotege]

best below are proven power wise
best header at the moment - awr
exhaust - all similar - prob best to get a custom mandrel bent
intake mani - only one available is j-spec, but not worth the money, you'll be better off just porting the stock one or getting one made up
j-spec cams - look for 2nd hand ones on here. i just sold mine actually
gasket set - mazda stuff comes in at about $400aud, that's around $280usd, but that included valve stem seals

i'm installing my ported head and custom cams tonight aussie time (monday night), so i'll let everyone know how they feel etc....

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
best below are proven power wise
best header at the moment - awr
exhaust - all similar - prob best to get a custom mandrel bent
intake mani - only one available is j-spec, but not worth the money, you'll be better off just porting the stock one or getting one made up
j-spec cams - look for 2nd hand ones on here. i just sold mine actually
gasket set - mazda stuff comes in at about $400aud, that's around $280usd, but that included valve stem seals

i'm installing my ported head and custom cams tonight aussie time (monday night), so i'll let everyone know how they feel etc....

I agree with that...right now the AWR header is king for gains, and check corksport for at least the intake cam...the exhuast cam is harder to come by..

so you got your stuff back Andrew?...let us know how it goes...

[twilightprotege]

getting it couriered to me very shortly. i'm at work at the moment...will be installing everything tonight.

a good way to get around the exhaust cam (and cheaper) is to just buy the j-spec intake, and get your original intake came re-pinned for the exhaust cam.

[twilightprotege]

enjoy :

http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36043

[batmang]

N/A pride. :)

[akhilleus]

I second that :D

[twilightprotege]

motion is passed unanimously ;)

[glyph]

off topic: akhilleus, I noticed you do the iPod thing too! I got the 40gb going into an aux input on the front of my deck, and have belkins cupholder mount on its way.

[akhilleus]

Yeah i have the rcainput 1/8" to rca then rca to ai-net for the ipod... but currently it isnt hooked up cause one of the rca's is messed up... i will have to have it replaced... i have the original ipod... although my parents have the 2 previous generations.
go NA...:D

[Gen1GT]

Holy shit, that was a long read.

Everyone keeps talking about how much power they THINK they'll make NA, but no-one does anything to back it up.

Make your 150whp for $2000, and I'll eat my words.

[ddogg777]

What happened to green mp3?

[TurfBurn]

Both the MSP and MP3 have a forged crank, which is an internal...The MSP has slightly redesigned piston crowns, for better quench area, and also has slightly different connecting rods...still not forged...

FWIW the changes made to the FS-DE for the MSP were performed in 2002.5...so any 02.5 car has an identical FS internally to the MSP...The 02/01 FS-DE's, which is also what is in the MP3, are all the same...Every Protege 2.0L FS-DE is immensely better and stronger than any other car it was ever in...(Probe SE, 626's, MX-6 2.0Ls etc...)
sorry for the thread resurrection... but was reading different stuff here and there... and wanted to make one correction...

The piston crowns are not any different.. I have a set of pistons from a 2003 MSP and 2001 MP3 and there is no difference in the rods or pistons in any way that I can tell from a pretty close visual inspection....

Install is always spot on and knows more than pretty much anybody on here... so trust what he says over me, but the above is what I found from a direct comparison.

Later!

Steve

[Installshield 2]

No problem man...The info I had on hand was directly from one of Ed's "contacts" a few months before the MSP's release...so that info came before the changes were actually made, all in all it may never have happened...But also remember that the supposed rod strengthening technique could not have changed its appearance at all...It may have just been manufacturing changes that marginally increased the rods strength...as well as the crowns...however it did sound as if these were noticable to the eye differences...so who knows...

The only thing I am absolutely positive about is the differences between the older Probe/MX-6/626 derivatives of the FS compared to any protege FS-DE version...there are some more noticable upgrades made for the Proteges version...

[igdrasil]

The only thing I am absolutely positive about is the differences between the older Probe/MX-6/626 derivatives of the FS compared to any protege FS-DE version...there are some more noticable upgrades made for the Proteges version...
which are?

Because, If I dont find a protege core, I will look into the Ford Probes to build my engine.

[Installshield 2]

any U.S. FS from 98 and before did not have a forged crank...

there are a slew of other differences to the head, oiling system, and recipricating assembly too, I need to dig it up...Some might be still on Ed's FAQ, but not sure...

[TurfBurn]

I can verify that the upper oil pan/main bearing support plate is different... the newer models have added structure for the contact points on the plate that are fastened to the thurst bearing main. So that's one thing you can add to that list :).

[SpicyMchaggis]

Holy shit, that was a long read.

Everyone keeps talking about how much power they THINK they'll make NA, but no-one does anything to back it up.

Make your 150whp for $2000, and I'll eat my words.
2000$ wouldn't cut it. Maybe, if you had lots of discounts for all the bolt-ons. But the real nitty gritty like cams and head work can cost 2k$ in just labor..Sigh..

[Gen1GT]

That's my point. You CAN'T make 150whp NA for $2000.