N/A Discussion

[Familia323]

I have become very interested in building up my engine without boost, but dont know whether or not it would be worth it in the end through money/hp gain. And lately I've been noticing more and more people talk about how they are interested in doing N/A(normally aspirated) build ups too. This is no doubt brought on by all the recent advancements with Piggybacks and fuel management. I wanted to start a thread where everyone could discuss whether or not our cars can be built up to decent HP levels without boost and the possible gains we could expect. So, to start it off:

What advantages will we gain with proper fuel management?

What could we do to increase hp if we had better control over the fuel maps?

What kind of 1/4mile times are people with headers,exhausts, intakes, etc. running?

[Darin]

No. It's not financially sound to try a N/A Build up on a low rpm, small displacement motor. Figure 11.5:1 CR pistons, forged rods, thousands and thousands of dollars in porting and polishing...Cam work so extreme the car would barely idle. You'd need to have the engine set up to rev to 8,000-10,000 rpms. :-/

All that for probably LESS HP, by a substantial margin, than the same money, or even LESS money into boosting the motor.

:(

[tonkabui]

ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

[Darin]

Originally posted by tonkabui
ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.


I'd think labor charges alone, on replacing the stock bits would run $2000... :-/

Figure, if you wanted 170whp - $3500 for a turbo, or $5-7000 for N/A mods - and the car would lose 'drivability'

[Matthew]

(normally aspirated)

naturally aspirated...

in any case, im going the N/A route for two main reasons, and some other small ones ill get into im sure once this discussion commences. Although i totally agree the turbo is a sweet way to go, i look at it like this:

1) more of a pain in the ass, especially if you do it yourself (problems, blown motors, hesitation, fuel mapping, colder plugs, guages, gas mileage, higher octane fuel which is 25 cents more expensive here per gallon, etc etc)

2) its easier to say, hey shit lemme take my tax refund and buy some camshafts than it is to say, shit i have an extra 3k dollars lying around that my wife doesnt know about to buy a turbo, and hope i dont fuck anything up to my only car that i need to go to work.


thats just my take....i wish i had the money and the inclination to fuck with a turbo, but its just not worth it....besides, you put all that money at one time into a turbo and you know what? theres always going to be someone faster than you...ALWAYS...

As far as track times, ill let you know how i do on thursday

[tonkabui]

this si true. i'm keeping my car NA also. it's easier to build it up slowly. i can never seem to save $4000 to blow on a turbo. i can sure save up a few hundred here and there to get downpipes, shorty headers, stuff like that though.

that and telling the gf that i'm spending $4K on a turbo instead of on her ring is bad news.

[Darin]

I can relate my Turbo Miata experience to this -

For about 5 months I had a GReddy turbo system on my Miata. It's not that the car 'broke', but 'things happened'. It's a domino effect. First the turbo - but now you are running lean, so you'll need new injectors. But now your pump can't keep up, so a fuel pump. Uh oh, the rear end could go at any minute!

There is something awesome about getting to my car and KNOWING that it will start EVERY Time...Sure, it's slower in a straight line, but like my Probe GT has become, having a car you have to monitor all the time, for fear of something breaking, etc, takes ALL the driving pleasure out of it.

Having said that, to get equal power from your car, staying N/A is the MUCH more expensive route. If you just want a nice bump, go with i/h/e...and a driving school.

:)

[tonkabui]

werd... i want to learn how to drive fast. self teaching just is gonna get me killed one of these days. anyone want to teach me how to drive? i'm a fast learner. i was even in GATE.

[Matthew]

having a car you have to monitor all the time, for fear of something breaking, etc, takes ALL the driving pleasure out of it.

you just described my RX7 Turbo II, and it was STOCK. id never like to be there again

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by tonkabui
ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.


i think your forgetting that a turbo kit that runs you $3500 will need tuning also...dyno time isnt cheep $200. thats if you dont want a blown motor. also you will have to buy a new clutch and flywheel $600-800 because your stock one cant handle it.
also once your tuned you'll need guage's to make sure your runinng good. another $250 or so (you could spend alot more on gauges,it all depend on how crazy you want to get).
so really a kit that runs you $3500 will in the end cost you about $5000.

[Matthew]

yep, ASSUMING you dont screw anything up on the install...no one is perfect..my friend is a mechanic and is really good (normally), but he installed his own turbo on his civic, and because two hoses werent marked, got them confused somehow and measured the wrong one...so he drilled a hole wrong in his oil pan and had to get a new oil pan...it was either that or have someone fix it for like 50 bucks...and really, when it boils down to it, your car still isnt super fast...my friends stock 03 accord has 240 horses

[tonkabui]

thanks 1fast,

but i was just talking about cost of material. as you can see, the cost of install and tuning was not included in either. the benefits of turbo are there, but the drawbacks are also there.

same can be said for NA. tuning an NA motor for maximum output will deplete engine life as can be seen in any of the speedvision mazda's that have to get a new engine every few races. it's a tad less expensive for components, but way more expensive to tune and maximize.

the argument can go on for days. it's just to me, it's easier to go the NA route because it's easier to do bolt ons and such.

[Familia323]

Originally posted by tonkabui

the argument can go on for days. it's just to me, it's easier to go the NA route because it's easier to do bolt ons and such.

Yeah which is why I brought it up, because I can really only afford to do N/A but I wanted to just see what everyone thought and get the facts straight. And to see how slow my car is gonna be in the end hehe:p :) But is there anyway that we can get 200 WHP out of Naturally(thanks razor) Aspirated stuff? If I could get to that point id be happy as hell!

[Matthew]

well there is a lotta shit you could actually do, without going too crazy...200whp, i doubt without nitrous, but maybe 200 hp at the crank with some dedication...so far this is my list:

intake
headers
no cats
exhaust
cams
pulleys
pistons
intake manifold
port/polish
flywheel
clutch
lsd
wires
plugs
and a good tailwind

and i know some of that stuff doesnt actually gain hp darin, but as far as getting as good times as a 200hp vehicle

[Familia323]

who makes pulleys for our cars and what are they actually gonna do?


and Razor how does your car feel with the stuff that you've done?

[Matthew]

well indigo makes water and alt pump pulleys around 215 shipped and unorthodox makes crank pulley for 215 shipped

the car feels pretty good, but then i used to drive a shitty as j-body sunfire...but i guess well find out on thursday when i take her to the track, if the bitch that owns the track would email me back with the address because its like 1 3/4 hr away

[1sty]

Originally posted by tonkabui
ok, so here's the costs so far:

intake: $200
header: $350
exhaust: $400
high flow cat: $350
intake/exhaust cams: $400

$1700 for about 125-130whp.

then with fuel management/ecu mods, you're looking at another ~$500.

that's $2200 all before install and tuning.

turbo will run you about $3500 for about 170whp.

so:

for NA: $16.92/hp
for turbo: $20.59/hp

but with turbo, hiboost has hit 200+ whp for about $5K.
with N/A, you're basically limited to about 130-150whp i think unless you want to go all out and make 220whp like the speedvision proteges, but their engines cost $15K.

hope i didn't spread any wrong info.

All that listed will yeild mostly just hp and little torque. 130 is optimistic and will be for a very small area of the power band.
The turbo can be had for under $2.5K and will run over 150 hp and even more torque. This will need damn near no tuning. The major need is a good ear and a steady hand to leave the damn thing alone.

The issues with turboing lowering relibility are teh same as those in going NA. Either way its a constant upgrade and worry. Atleast if you want to keep pushing it.

NA is prone to knock just as turboing is.

The moral of the story is if you want a problem free car then leave it the hell alone, otherwise the more you try the more problems you will cause, just the way it works. Take it from someone that has paid $400 this month for a monthly payment for a car that has been stuck on jack stands awaiting parts.

Darins right. Stay to intake and exhuast, I wouldn't even do headeres as they will throw CEL lights and you will never know if there is another problem until its too late.

[twilightprotege]

both na and turbo have their advantages and disadvantages. do what ever the hell you want. up to 200hp at the crank, go na. past that, go turbo. very generalised ofcourse, but that's purely money wise......if you can work on the engine yourself. if you cant, be prepaired to spend much much much more, but as a very very general rule of thumb, 100hp/L na is easily obtainable without huge costs, but above that you'll be spending thousands for an extra 1 or 2 hp.

my advice is to keep a figure like this in mind.....for every $100 i spend on the engine, i want 1hp increase. do what ever you're happy to do with this. if something is $200 and only gives you 1hp increase, dont get it....same goes for $50 for 1hp increase, GET IT NOW!!!!! hehehe at the moment my success barometer is $70 per 1 hp.

later

[Familia323]

Well here is my goal:
To hit 200 WHP with N/A.

Its my goal whether it be reasonable, logical, or possible.


And has anyone thought about sending their ECU off to JETCHIPS???? THey can reprogram ECUs to the mods that you have done to your car, and my friend sent one off for is non-vtec Teg and got it back within the week. And he paid only 200 bucks. I used to hear of them back when I owned my 67 firebird, but I didnt think much of it as I never really had an ecu.. hehe. But now, I'm starting to wonder if its better than waiting for all the piggybacks and crap.

[flat_black]

I'm looking foreward to picking up a piggy at some point, myself. That being said, a lot of people here have some good ideas and ideas of pricing. But having worked to make a fast N/A Volvo 740, there's one thing that everyone, turbo or otherwise, forgets; Weight. Weight is the primary killer of any cars performance. Personally, I'm not up for spending too much more on my car, after intake, exhaust, piggyback, then winter wheels and brake upgrades. I'll just save my cash up for a Rotus (Rotary Lotus 7-style car). ;) 1200 lbs, with a 13BT Rotary engine pushing 240 or so horsepower. *nods*

For those who care at all:
http://members.aol.com/ROTUSROTUS/

Is the site where you can take a look at 'em.

Back on topic, though. You can remove carpeting, plastics, liners... If you get a standalone EMS and whatnot, you can strip out the factory wiring harness, remove A/C... Any crazy thing you want. =) But if you want comfort, I assume you aren't going the route for making the car REALLY fast. Just a thought.

[1sty]

Originally posted by Familia323
Well here is my goal:
To hit 200 WHP with N/A.

Its my goal whether it be reasonable, logical, or possible.


And has anyone thought about sending their ECU off to JETCHIPS???? THey can reprogram ECUs to the mods that you have done to your car, and my friend sent one off for is non-vtec Teg and got it back within the week. And he paid only 200 bucks. I used to hear of them back when I owned my 67 firebird, but I didnt think much of it as I never really had an ecu.. hehe. But now, I'm starting to wonder if its better than waiting for all the piggybacks and crap.

Last I talked to them JET, they could at best get another 3 whp out fo the protege.

To get to 200 who which is doubling the whp of the car stock you are looking at ATLEAST the numbers Darin mentioned.

Exhuast, intake, cams, pistons, header, ECU is only going to make it part way. Then youi need prot and polish and a slew of other things. At that poitnt he car will be more likely to knock then a turbo car and you will have to buy more monitoring devices not to mention the car would be all but impossible to drive on the street in any enjoyable fashion.

[Familia323]

FLT Black: That thing is crazy! I like it.



1st: I'm not really looking at Jet so much to create HP, but more or less make the car run better with all that crap I'll have to do. And Who knows, I might even just give up somewhere along the lines and put nitrous on my car.. even though Ive made fun of nitrous users since it became such a fashion statement. But I dont know, we'll see what happens. Right now, I dont want to fork out the dough for a turbo, because if I went turbo I'd want to do it right... So I would get forged internals and something like Perfs stage II kit... which would be well over 5500 dollars.... Believe me, I know that in the long run a turbo would be cheaper and more effective. The problem is for a turbo you have to throw out almost 4 grand up front. I think that is where most people get hung up. If you are like me you cant wait until you get 4 grand to do something to your car. So you just get anxious and start buying what you can..

[tonkabui]

all i want is 140whp. is that too much to ask?

a member here went with i/h/e and cams and was pushing 130whp, so i'm hoping to get the same with those. then what next?

[1sty]

The turbo option is a less expensive one if you can remain conservative. Again at 6 PSI and only an ear for knock you can have the FP system or SPoolin system for under $4K and the only thing you NEED is a clutch in 6 months when the factory one starts to slip. It took me 6 months at 8 PSI for the clutch to slip and when removed it was in perfect condition, so its not like your damaginf it.

[Familia323]

wait... so the MSP has about 140 whp right? and they do high 14s right? So if we got around 170-180whp we could do low 14s high 13s(maybe)? that would be hella cool by me. so I think that if I could get to low 14s without a turbo that would be pretty bad ass(in a protege)..

[1sty]

Originally posted by Familia323
wait... so the MSP has about 140 whp right? and they do high 14s right? So if we got around 170-180whp we could do low 14s high 13s(maybe)? that would be hella cool by me. so I think that if I could get to low 14s without a turbo that would be pretty bad ass(in a protege)..

Not comparible.

The MSP's quik spooling turbo gives it a big bump in juice all the way back to 2500 RPM. The NA route will yeild mostly top end power and not much toque, atleast no where neer the leve of the MSP with matched whp. Also I thought the MSP was hitting 150 at the wheels. One more, I don't know anyonthat ahs posted a slip of breaking into the 14's without upping the boost menaing they were running more power.

[Familia323]

Originally posted by 1st MP3 in NH
Not comparible.

The MSP's quik spooling turbo gives it a big bump in juice all the way back to 2500 RPM. The NA route will yeild mostly top end power and not much toque, atleast no where neer the leve of the MSP with matched whp. Also I thought the MSP was hitting 150 at the wheels. One more, I don't know anyonthat ahs posted a slip of breaking into the 14's without upping the boost menaing they were running more power.

Hmmm.... damnit this is frustrating...

[1sty]

NOt saying its impossible and I can be wrong as anyone can. Hell I'd like to see it but I know CHDesings gave up and was only 1/2 way there. He knows his shit and he was getting to frustrated with it.
He now has an 89 mirage that runsin the 12's, no its not N/A :D

[DooMer_MP3]

I'm willing to bet with Intake, Header, Exhaust, *custom* cams (not the pointless J-Spec/Mazdaspeed ones) and proper tuning you could get 140whp out of the engine easily. Throw in HC pistons, better intake manifold, Port & Polish, I'm willing to bit 150whp+.

Parts cost:
Intake: ~$150
Header: $350-$480
Exhaust: $450
Custom Cams: $350
Piggyback: $600
HC Pistons: $300
Intake Manifold: $300
---------------------------
$2550-$2680

Port & Polish: ???

Labor of course would be pricey for the Port & Polish and HC pistons. But I'm sure if you could remove the engine for that it would be decent.

The rest should be relatively easy bolt-on mods. AND you can do it piece by piece.

Chris

[Darin]

If you want a fast 'car', sell the P5, or otherwise buy a Mustang/Camaro/Talon/etc.

It's MUCH more cost-effective.

If you want a fast P5, be prepared to spend $10,000 and more, for reliable power.

[tonkabui]

hmm... so with i/h/e, how much power will i be getting? anyone with dyno #'s with just these mods? razor? hello? 1fastmp5? anyone?

[Blown]

The biggest thing I don't understand is what kind of racing do you guys/girls plan on doing? Drag or Auto-Xing? Sure, having vasts amount of power is great but where do you want the power-band(low, mid or screaming?).

I definitly think that the N/A route is the way to go. So far, I dyno'd my car with I/E/ground-wires and I came out with 116whp. Not bad for the mods I've done! Now, the way I figure it, 130whp is easily attainable and for a lot cheaper than a turbo kit and it wouldn't require 91octane gas.

[1sty]

Again a turbo will yeild twice that number on 91 octane aswell. For a similar cost mind you.

[Blown]

The way I figure it:

Intake/Exhaust/Ground wires = 116whp
Dropping 1 cat and adding a header~10whp
Sparkplugs/wires ~3whp
JDM cams - 5whp

All in all, about 134whp. Considering my car baselined at 100whp(130bhp), 134whp would equate to just over 170bhp.

[1sty]

I would down grade those estimate, Dropping both cats and header maybe 7 whp. The spark plugs maybe 1 whp. Cams, only one is JDM by the way, your about right but others feel its less.

NOw for the cost of doing all that you could easily have a turbo to pump out 160 whp. Or a little less if you like to be even safer.

[Blown]

116whp has already been proven for I/E/groundwires.

10+whp has been found with the AWR header.

Sparkplug(iridium)/sparkplug wires should be about 3hp, I've plugs alone dyno'ing a 3hp gain. Hell, even full synthetic oil will give you 2-3whp in the upper end.

So far, my cost estimate for all parts I listed is about $1100US. I don't know any turbo kits that cost $1100.

[1FASTMP5]

well so far i have : mp3 ecu,j-spec int,mazdaspeed ext cam,rm headers,hks axle back, cai, groundin kit, plugs.
i dont have money to dyno.. but i will say im for sure getting 130 to the wheels if not more.
call b.s all you want but ive ran my car at the track and gotten decent times concidering the track conitions.

[1FASTMP5]

everything i listed cost me a total of :$1,115
not to bad for 30 or so whp.

[Blown]

1FastMP5 - I'm not calling BS at all on you but it definitly sounds right! I'm just lucky that I have friends who own a Dynapack. They charge me $80/hr for dynoing and $125/hr for dyno'ing with a wideband O2. Mind you, that's Canadian, not US dollars.

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by Blown
1FastMP5 - I'm not calling BS at all on you but it definitly sounds right! I'm just lucky that I have friends who own a Dynapack. They charge me $80/hr for dynoing and $125/hr for dyno'ing with a wideband O2. Mind you, that's Canadian, not US dollars.

thanks, but i know someone will, and it will be someone without these mods. i totaly agree with your satement above on gains w/header,cams,plugs,ect. i think your right on with your guess.
i know there is another member with a silver p5 out of texes i forgot his name(sorry) with cai,awr header,hks, and dynoed @133whp. thats without cams and the advanced timing i have of the mp3 ecu. so there shoul'nt be any problems with dynoing in that ball park. btw your #'s are very impressive.

[1sty]

Get that beast dynoed Fast, alot of people would like to see it.

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by 1st MP3 in NH
Get that beast dynoed Fast, alot of people would like to see it.

im tring to soon. i just got a house and boy do i have my work cut out for me.
**does anybody have a hook up's on dyno's here in so.cali???

[Blown]

1FastMP5 - I won't call BS on you because I know what it's like to have someone call BS on you. I recently had my local P5 call bs on my gains, so, I showed them my dyno. Now, they call BS on my dyno and forced me out of the club... Nice, eh? How hard was it to locate and install a MP3 ecu?

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by Blown
1FastMP5 - I won't call BS on you because I know what it's like to have someone call BS on you. I recently had my local P5 call bs on my gains, so, I showed them my dyno. Now, they call BS on my dyno and forced me out of the club... Nice, eh? How hard was it to locate and install a MP3 ecu?

the ecu is kinda hard to get, the way i got mine was trading with a fellow mp3 turbo member. install is fairly easy. i cant really tell you how much of a differance it will make because i installed the cams & ecu at the same time.

[Blown]

What did you all have to do to install it? Do you consider the install a bolt-on or was modifying needed?

[1FASTMP5]

no, its all bolt on w/ one plug. its a swap, no modifying

[Blown]

I wonder if I could get one in Canada a lot easier...

[melicha8]

I'm going the NA route guys. I'd love to go turbo but it would cost too much to become competetive in AutoX. What I'm doing is buying the best parts possible and available for the protege to build it up to STS class. Look at my sig and you will see what I have and where I have to go. I still have to get a couple suspension components to go and I still want to replace my exhaust with a JIC system. As for horsepower I'm about as high as I can go with the mods permitted in STS(don't tell nobody I have a clutch and flywheel ;) ) I will get my car dyno'd after I put in the header(group buy going on right now PM me if interested) and you will all have an idea of what the basic NA mods will give a protege. I will ,along with the dyno map, provide temp and maybe humidity so you all can get an idea. This is mostly as a before/after dyno of the header.

Oh yeah STS also permits me to swap ECU's so if anyone with an MP3 ecu wants to trade I need one bad. I'm willing to give 100.00 in addition to covering my shipping costs. and I will send mine first.

As for all this talking about dyno results. We'll see how much power these mods will make on our cars when I dyno on a clayton chassis dyno with 87 octane

[Familia323]

Originally posted by 1FASTMP5
well so far i have : mp3 ecu,j-spec int,mazdaspeed ext cam,rm headers,hks axle back, cai, groundin kit, plugs.
i dont have money to dyno.. but i will say im for sure getting 130 to the wheels if not more.
call b.s all you want but ive ran my car at the track and gotten decent times concidering the track conitions.


so what kind of times did you run... and that goes for you too Blown???

[Blown]

Familia - I'm not into drag racing, I'm more of an Auto-X. I do have a Gtech and I can get you an approximate time. Just from racing my friends, I'd say mid 16s.

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by Familia323
so what kind of times did you run... and that goes for you too Blown???

i ran
60ft-2.3
1/8-10.2
1/4-15.9 @86 mph
this was @ 4:00 pm in 100 degree weather.
i also had traction problems in 1st gear.
i think my car is capible of 15.7 or so, with colder weather.

[Blown]

I'm at a high altitude to get a good time.

1FastMP5 - What octane of fuel do you use?

[1sty]

BLown, why were you kicked out a protege club for a 116 whp dyno?

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by Blown
I'm at a high altitude to get a good time.

1FastMP5 - What octane of fuel do you use?

shitty so.cal 91 oct gas

[Darin]

uh...are you guys really claiming 3whp from f'in spark plugs?? I think that's complete bullshit - unless somebody can back that with anything other than anecdotal evidence. Once I gained SEVEN wheel HP from changing to new spark plugs, on the dyno. Why? Because my old plugs were fouled. Should I claim "NGKs give you 7whp!"? Hell no.

Fwiw, the strongest FS Probe guys I know are around 115-120whp - 130-150ft-lbs. They've run 15.6 @ 88-90mph. They are lighter than you.

:-/

[Blown]

Darin - It's been proven. My friends who own the dyno compared stock against iridium plugs and also regular oil to full synthetic oil.

Besides, my claim was for 3whp from iridium plugs and new sparkplug wires.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Blown
Darin - It's been proven. My friends who own the dyno compared stock against iridium plugs and also regular oil to full synthetic oil.

Besides, my claim was for 3whp from iridium plugs and new sparkplug wires.

proven - by whom? was it a controlled environment? Specifics man! I need SPECIFICS!! :)

:D

[1sty]

I hope to god you don't reply with a G-tech timer, please god no?

[Blown]

Darin - Specifics? Like, the test cars, etc??

http://www.densoiridium.com/tunerstales.php

That is the manufacturers claim.

[1sty]

No, like the dyno meter you used, its location, test and setup procedures, was it on the same day, same envirnmental considtions, did you do several runs for each?

[Blown]

My friends own a Dynapack dyno. For the oil test, they change oil with Motul full synthetic on 2 DC2 and 1 NSX. On all cars, they found 2+HP gain.

And, for the sparkplugs, I know they changed stock to Spoon(Denso makes them). The test car, I do not know and I'd have to ask. My car is supposed to be the one they test the plug/wire combo upgrade.

[Darin]

what is a DC2? And an NSX? Dude...you can't compare results from OTHER cars and say they'll make that difference on YOUR car.

Show me one, back to back dyno of a P5, STOCK, going from 100whp to 102 whp by switching from NEW plugs, to the others...same w/ oil.

Could you claim a 2hp gain?
Won't happen...and even, seriously, TWO hp between dyno runs is NOTHING...anything less than 5hp approximates NO gain/loss

[1FASTMP5]

a dc2 is an acura ingera.

[1sty]

ok, ITR I get, DSM is a stretch, :wtf: is dc2!

[1FASTMP5]

dc2 is the body code i belive....
there's da body 90-93
dc2 body 94-2001
dc5 body wich is the rsx body 2002-current

[twizyours]

Alright I have to state my opinion. Mostly becaus I am really sick of hearing people say if you want a fast car sell your p5 or pro or mp3 and get a camaro or a turbod car. It gets on my nerves. First before small imports were accepted (hondas toyotaqsw) they went through the same thing we are going through now Research!!!!!!. Just like when hondas first starting getting turboed they were blowing engines like crazy too, because of lack of info of their own car. Guess what peopl didnt quit and learned from each other. Now knowledge saves you money, networking and communication. Those three things will save you money. Now first their have been 3 to four people who dynoed at 13o whp with intake and exhaust cams and two with fsze motors. and with 130 torque. Guess what that is not bad without fuel mapping throttle body pulleys etc. Now I believe 200 whp is deffinetly possible without a doubt when more resources are available (n streeta ble qustionable). I think 180 whp is 170 - 1800 whp is deffinetly possible with resources available now. Now I am building my car for na tuned first with possible turbo tuned later. Now If you are going to have someone do install for you it will cost you alot, if not you can do it without spending $6000 dollars. I got my cams for 310 and installed them my selve. My intake for 80 dollars and turned it into a cold air for 30 more dollars. A shop around here will do cat back mandrel bent piping for $80 dollars without muffler and 16O WITH MUFFLER ( all they do is exhausts). Once I get the money for my exhaust and fpr I am going to the dyno. After that I am getting the cam gears and then going back to the dyn again. Also they have p0robe headers on ebay for $170, i THINK THEY mite be made by obx ( it wont say that but if you search on probetalk under second gen fs probe you will get more info as they have bouth them ande said they are nice). Now back to my conclusion alot of people will be negative and have no heart and just take what people give them and say buy another car. Lack of knowledge and research =alot of money in anything. Hard work and dedication = a big smile on your face, a sense of accomplishment and enough money to go to mcdonalds.

Thank You for your attention and
Have a Nice Day ;)

[Familia323]

Originally posted by twizyours
First before small imports were accepted (hondas toyotaqsw) they went through the same thing we are going through now Research!!!!!!. Just like when hondas first starting getting turboed they were blowing engines like crazy too, because of lack of info of their own car. Guess what peopl didnt quit and learned from each other. Now knowledge saves you money, networking and communication. Those three things will save you money.

Thats exactly why I started this thread. Everyone wants to know, but no one knows how.. so if we all go through some trial and error, eventually we'll get it. And kick some ass in the end.:D

[MP3-Owner]

I would like to dyno my car because it feels pretty strong with just i/h/e(with no cats). I would like to think I'm pushing 130whp which would mean like what...160bhp?

But I feel that I'm probably closer to 120whp which would be about 150bhp. I will have to go down to my local dyno one day and find out :D

[Matthew]

i need to as well, we have the same basic setup

[Darin]

there is a lot of 'speculation' about what ppl feel is possible - there is just no data to back it up.

:shrug:

[Familia323]

Yet...


give it time and we'll find out.

[flat_black]

Here's my results with spark plugs... The whole story.

A friend (Henceforth called Alex) told me he put in new spark plugs, and his car gained a whole bunch of horsepower! He got the top-of-the-line Platinum +4's... He said I should do the same. I told him I don't think +4's actually made much of a difference, if any. Now, then, much deliberation ensued, and I put him up to it; 'Alright... Here we go... I'll buy three sets of spark plugs. Iridium, Platnum +4's and stock Denso's for the Protege, and test all of them on my GTech (Go ahead and laugh at me. =)) The conditions, in order to be the same, were predetermined. Run the car for half an hour before hand to even out the adjustment for heat soak, and run on a road adjacent to a Mobil station, refueling with 87 octane after each of 9 runs, three runs on each plug. His end of this deal was as follows: He would pay for each set of plugs, and buy me dinner if I saw more than a 2hp gain from swapping the plugs. And I would buy him dinner if otherwise, and soak the loss from the plugs. Sounds like a good deal to me!

Alright, onto test day. Like I said, I refueled after every run, to make sure the weight of the car and the draw was consistant. FYI, my car returns a more or less solid 114hp from the GTech. I pulled into the gas station, and changed to the Denso's first. I'm getting really used to changing these damn things. Checked everything, topped up the tank, and off I went after dialing the weight into the GTech.

Denso Results:
Run 1: 114hp
Run 2: 114hp
Run 3: 114hp

Nice and consistant, as I expected. Then I went to the Bosche +4's. This is what I got from them; The revving was smoother, and steadier as I got into the higher revs. And this is what the GTech showed me:

Platinum +4 Results:
Run 1: 114hp
Run 2: 115hp
Run 3: 114hp

And, I installed the Iridium's last, and did another set of runs. This time, the plugs allowed for a lot smoother revving all along the range. Here's the results:

NGK Iridium Results:
Run 1: 114hp
Run 2: 114hp
Run 3: 114hp

As you can see, there's no real difference according to the infinitly accurate GTech meter. ;) I got a free dinner, and a few sets of fresh spark plugs. Not one to be a jerk about that sort of thing, I paid the tip at dinner, and soaked half of the price of the plugs.

OH, and 1st? My Sparkco plug wires didn't break on me at all. =) I was totally psyched! Hehee.

Here's the summary with averages for those who don't care to read:

Denso: 114hp
Bosche Platinum +4: 114.3hp
NGK Iridium: 114hp

Enjoy.

[twilightprotege]

gee, sounds like this thread is just a wishwash of so many ideas...should i go na, turbo, does this make any power, what about this...blah blah blah.

the end result is quite simple. yes our engine could support even 300whp in na trim.....got $100k to burn and you can have it. it's all a matter of give and take. some things make hp in abc setups, but not in xyz setups. remember that our engines are mass produced so my engine might make 100whp stock, but the next one makes 101, the next one 95. they are not "blueprinted" from the factory and as we all know, slight changes make a huge difference.

my advice is to do your research. like what flat_black just wrote, do your own testing if you can afford it (and get dinner for your troubles) and make your own decisions. do what you're comfortable with, do what you feel safe with. do whatever the hell you want, JUST ENJOY YOUR CAR!!!!!!!!

later

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by Darin
there is a lot of 'speculation' about what ppl feel is possible - there is just no data to back it up.

:shrug:

yes, there is...... a few members have dynoed there cars with i,e,h
equinox- got 133whp
phantom cruser- i think got 125whp
and a few others out there.

[Blown]

Darin - Remember, I did say 2+HP. I didn't tell you the exact gains on the NSX or the DC2s but it was definitly more than 2HP. And, remember, 2HP does make a difference in times(bracket racers???) but it can't be felt. It all adds up in the end.

Now, my next oil change(18K km) I am switching over to full synthetic and also changing my plugs to Denso Iridium. Then, I will also put on my Magnecor plug wires. Out of the three mods, I expect 5HP. I will dyno before and after.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Blown
Darin - Remember, I did say 2+HP. I didn't tell you the exact gains on the NSX or the DC2s but it was definitly more than 2HP. And, remember, 2HP does make a difference in times(bracket racers???) but it can't be felt. It all adds up in the end.

Now, my next oil change(18K km) I am switching over to full synthetic and also changing my plugs to Denso Iridium. Then, I will also put on my Magnecor plug wires. Out of the three mods, I expect 5HP. I will dyno before and after.

Dyno a baseline run - change the oil...dyno again within 30 minutes - AFTER the car is warmed up, with the Synthetic. Now, drain the synthetic, and dyno again w/ the, uh, Dino oil.

You won't see repeatable measurable dyno evidence of those mods - unless your OLD oil and plugs are shot to hell to begin with.

Nobody can feel 2hp. nobody.

[Blown]

Darin - I agree that 2HP can't be felt but it does make a difference on the track. I'd say the human threshold is around 5-7HP. Also, my last dyno run(116whp run) was done on a fresh oil and 89 octane gas. So, I'll make sure to keep consistancy in future runs.

[p5sundevil]

no one answered the guy, i know its a noob question but still.

yes dc2 is an integra, it is one of the most famous integras in the line for tuning possibilities. The DC2 typeR's is what made them famous, the old b18c engine.

The new Acura RSX is actually still called an integra in japan, it is the DC5 integra.

The NSX is the high end acura sports car, a dream car IMO that handles phenominally, but NSX is just the name, like integra, civic, protege etc.

As for the way this thread has goen with plugs, wires, oil honestly with all that stuff you will feel something, better throttle response and smoother acceleration. Other than that power gains are so minimal you wont notice it, 1/4 mile times may be affected in the hundreths of a second but nothin more.

In the end it is for throttle response and smooth accel. as much as it is for engine safety, as in it will help your engine out a little with those mods, make em safer at higher use when modding the engine and overall make it run in a more healthy manner. If that doesnt sound too weird when talking about an engine.

[Blown]

Sundevil - I look at wires/plugs/oil as a good start for a N/A build-up. To me, it is a requirement.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Blown
Darin - I agree that 2HP can't be felt but it does make a difference on the track. I'd say the human threshold is around 5-7HP. Also, my last dyno run(116whp run) was done on a fresh oil and 89 octane gas. So, I'll make sure to keep consistancy in future runs.

I'd guess it'd take 7-10 hp to gain ONE mph in a 3000lbs vehicle's trap speed....everything else being equal. 2 hp won't make your car any 'quicker'. Driver's skill, or lack there of is the determining factor in 99.5% of e/t improvement.

[1sty]

Originally posted by p5sundevil
no one answered the guy, i know its a noob question but still.

yes dc2 is an integra, it is one of the most famous integras in the line for tuning possibilities. The DC2 typeR's is what made them famous, the old b18c engine.

The new Acura RSX is actually still called an integra in japan, it is the DC5 integra.

The NSX is the high end acura sports car, a dream car IMO that handles phenominally, but NSX is just the name, like integra, civic, protege etc.

As for the way this thread has goen with plugs, wires, oil honestly with all that stuff you will feel something, better throttle response and smoother acceleration. Other than that power gains are so minimal you wont notice it, 1/4 mile times may be affected in the hundreths of a second but nothin more.

In the end it is for throttle response and smooth accel. as much as it is for engine safety, as in it will help your engine out a little with those mods, make em safer at higher use when modding the engine and overall make it run in a more healthy manner. If that doesnt sound too weird when talking about an engine.

Thank you for the infor but another did anser the DC2 question.
I am well familiar with acuras line, My father has driven them since I was 2 so they have always been a part of my life and I had an integra RS when I was 17.

[Micah]

Originally posted by 1st MP3 in NH
The turbo option is a less expensive one if you can remain conservative. Again at 6 PSI and only an ear for knock you can have the FP system or SPoolin system for under $4K and the only thing you NEED is a clutch in 6 months when the factory one starts to slip. It took me 6 months at 8 PSI for the clutch to slip and when removed it was in perfect condition, so its not like your damaginf it.

Hey, don't forget about Modern Performance Inc.

We are also under $4000 for our Stage I

[1sty]

Sorry, Micah, just not familiar with your stuff that much.

[Familia323]

I guess what we are all waiting for now are lists of mods and dyno sheets, and track times.

[twizyours]

Yes indeed

My List:

Current mods:

MP3 ECU
JDM Cams
4 Guage ground wiring
CAI
MSD

Once I get:
Ractive FPR
Custom 2 1/4 catback
headers
(possibly TRI Point Cams)

I am then heading to the dyno.

I just started a new job 2 days ago and currently have a part time job at autozone. So if everything keeps working out I mite be getting this done soon.

Also it should probally cost me about $400 without cam gears, so it is very possible this could happen soon. I am going with the second gen headers on ebay for $170 since their have been some good post on probetalk about them from numerous people for $170 I am going with them.

[professor_booty]

I think 200 whp would be possible N/A. I have an import magazine and they got a Honda 1.6 liter engine running at 201 or 202 hp N/A at the wheels. I sure it could be done with the 2.0, you just need to do some work. Granted they have about 11 or 12:1 compression and run racing fuel...and have done all of the necessary engine work, porting polishing, etc. I'm sure if a 1.6 can get there a 2.0 can also.

[MP3_boy]

1/4 mile time.
16.3 best run

mods:
mazdaspeed cams (both)
injen intake
2 1/4 stainless exhaust with second cat removed.
spool lowering spirings
and kart boy short shifter

(full interior with 2 subs)

kind of depressing, alot more internal work is needed.

[neuromancer]

Originally posted by Blown
1FastMP5 - I won't call BS on you because I know what it's like to have someone call BS on you. I recently had my local P5 call bs on my gains, so, I showed them my dyno. Now, they call BS on my dyno and forced me out of the club... Nice, eh? How hard was it to locate and install a MP3 ecu?

You weren't forced out from anything. You left the forum on your own, then deleted all your own posts. Asked me to remove your account, so I disabled it.

If you call that being forced...then I don't know what to tell you.

A couple of people questioned your 116whp on THAT dyno, and there was a bit of a debate. Nothing to run off for.

Just wanted to clear that up. Our club is a good club, with a lot of nice people in it. We don't want people implying that you were forced out.

You are welcome back to our forum anytime you want, just like I told you via email when you left.

Jay

[michaelnchelle]

I know this is a total newb question, but whats the difference between our US-spec engines and the J-spec FS-ZE engine?

Corksport claims 170bhp from a stock FS-ZE, and its supposed to be a direct drop in replacement for $1950. This seems like a good place to start for those wanting NA power, its about half the cost of a turbo kit, and should have basically same-as-stock reliability.

Can a US-spec engine be converted with the proper parts to a J-spec replica with similar NA power output? Or is it cheaper to just buy a new engine and swap?

[Blown]

High compression pistons, different intake manifold, intake cam, exhaust cam, different ECU, one catalytic convertor, and different exhaust manifold. By the way, it should be 170ps or about 165HP.

You can install the pistons and cams to a NA(north american) spec engine but without proper tuning, the pistons would be useless. The cams add no extra lift but more overlap(small hp gain). However, I believe that the 170ps is underated. With I/H/E, cams, pistons, and tuning I think you'd be in the 180bhp range.

Besides, the JDM engine is an OBD1 engine compared to our OBDII engines. To swap the engine, you'd have to converter to a different ECU.

[1FASTMP5]

Originally posted by michaelnchelle
I know this is a total newb question, but whats the difference between our US-spec engines and the J-spec FS-ZE engine?

Corksport claims 170bhp from a stock FS-ZE, and its supposed to be a direct drop in replacement for $1950. This seems like a good place to start for those wanting NA power, its about half the cost of a turbo kit, and should have basically same-as-stock reliability.

Can a US-spec engine be converted with the proper parts to a J-spec replica with similar NA power output? Or is it cheaper to just buy a new engine and swap?

if you get some higher compression than the fs-ze pistons,ingintion system,piggie back ecu, fs-ze or even custom cams,full length header,good flywheel & clutch, fs-ze intake manifold,and cai,some light head work. i think you will be very close to the 200 hp @ the crank mark.

as to were the fs-ze has 168@ the crank and maybe 130-135whp
and is almost impossible to get the right ecu for it.

[michaelnchelle]

So it sounds like the biggest contributor to the increased power of the J-spec engine is higher compression pistons, but without an ECU, its pretty much useless. So then I guess the engines imported by CorkSport do not include the ECU... damn. I thought this sounded like the perfect plan for an all-motor 200hp Protege!

Has anyone tried increasing bore and/or stroke of a Protege motor? Getting it up to 2.2 liters should put out a nice increase in hp and tq, if the block can handle it of course.

[Installshield 2]

The FS-ZE's ECU is an OBD-I system making it pretty hard to rig into any 3rd gen Protege...You would basically need to aquire a entire J-spec Familia's front end to obtain all the needed sensors, wiring, hoses etc. to make the swap from OBD-II to I...

Not many on the Protegeclub forum went the NA route...but with a stroker kit you could considerably bump displacement like you said...but it probably wouldn't help peak horsepower, just lowend torque which is decent already...

In my experience with the FS, this is what it boils down to (I just skimmed most of the posts to this thread, so I apologize if this is redundant)...

The main problem with the FS dinosaur (especially the DE) is breathing...It will never breathe well enough to promote a massive redline, and in turn never give excellent NA capabilities...I would set the absolute "streetable" limit of a hugely built NA FS at about 180whp (it is true that the Speed touring Pro's make around 225whp, but they are not streetable and are extremely peaky)...With ridiculous compression, aggressive cams and a complete stand alone...A realistic limit that could be obtained fairly cheaply would be more like 150whp...That being a FS brought to ZE specs (possibly with even slightly higher compression) header, decent programmable piggy-back, and the rest of normal NA bolt-ons (intake, exhuast etc.)...The biggest problem would be the tuning, you would most likely have to dyno-tune it to make sure you are making the most power safely...other than that though it wouldn't be that far out of reach for some of you. You figure most of the parts can be purchased for around $200 each (the set of J-spec pistons are like $180 I think) and a lot of you can do the work yourself, it might make a decent approach compared to FI...And you will not have to wait for boost to make the power...

I am currently in the middle of a high compression, low-boost setup...I am planning on raising the compression to about 10.7:1 and using the ZE's cams and intake manifold and then building a custom turbo system...I will most likely go with a T-25, intercooled and decent width exhuast with a boost setting of around 4-5 psi...I am hoping that with the raised compression I will be able to achieve not too far south of 200whp and hopefully not a ton of torque...My goal is just to blend the best parts of an NA engine (instant throttle response and a nice smooth powerband) with a fast spooling turbo system...If you have the friends you can source a lot of great parts for stupid cheap...I have a T-25, a used Spearco FMIC, a custom turbo manifold, and the cams and I haven't spent 1 grand yet...I have a decent connection for the plumbing, BOV and gauges electronics and hopefully can at least get it running for around $2500 (that mostly depending on what type of ECU I can get away with, it might turn out to be a lot more expensive)...I will let you know how it turns out...

Some more advantages hopefully will be better gas mileage than a low compression high boost FS, and still maintain a flat torque curve...If I can keep the torque at bay there won't be too much stress on the drivetrain (mostly the gearbox is what I am worried about) but I haven't seen dyno's of any FS's similarly modified...

[flat_black]

Welcome to the club Installshield! I feel a bit off calling you a newbie, given the first post of yours that I've seen (This one). =) At any rate, you're very right... 150hp would be where I would personally cap the gains for an N/A system. 150whp would sate me, surely, but not some of those crazy, power hungry people. ;) Hehee. I've lately been thinking about going the turbo route, but seeing as I'm shooting for such a low whp, and will be autocrossing, and not dragging, the car, I'm going to try and keep the car N/A. With that, I'm probably going to pick up the thermal cat-back, and get Martel Racing nearby to bend me up a 2.5" down/midpipe with cats to remain legal. I'm not sure what to do as far as head work; I was thinking about trying out a port and polish job on the intake and exhaust manifold to try and aid the wheezy FS-DE, and can't decide if I want to try HC pistons first, or if I want to do cams... But either way, I'm also going to pick up a piggy once the new owner of Perfworks piggy project gets back to me, and we'll see what type of gain that brings. Anyway, good luck with the low pressure turbo, as it seems like you have a good roadmap to follow from the get-go. And, once again, welcome to the club!

[Blown]

Now, how would one tune an engine and address fuel concerns? Would a stand-alone be the route to go? Or, a piggyback unit of some sort? I know the S-AFCII sound promising but it does not adjust timing. Also, what about the AEM E-manage?

[REMillers]

*bookmark for late reading tonight*

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally posted by Blown
Now, how would one tune an engine and address fuel concerns? Would a stand-alone be the route to go? Or, a piggyback unit of some sort? I know the S-AFCII sound promising but it does not adjust timing. Also, what about the AEM E-manage?

Emanage unfortunately cannot do timing on our setup either. The only piggyback I know of that will work, but who knows if we'll ever see it, is the unit perfworks WAS working on, and has now been transferred over to Modern Performance Works (Micah is on here and "works" for them so you can ask him).

Chris

[Blown]

How about the HKS engine management system? There has to be some standalone system that we could use.

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally posted by Installshield 2

... Excellent post by Installshiled 2 ...


Installshield,

Nice to see you on this board for however long you decide to stay. I've enjoyed your posts on PClub :).

Its been said before, and it'll be said again. All of the mods in the world will get you no where near close to their potential without proper tuning! I really hope the piggyback in development by Modern Performance Works comes out soon for the NA guys.

I am not going to do any mods this year as winter is approaching and Im so close to paying off my horrid credit card debt! Yay! But my decision on which route to go will be made after some of you guinea pigs get some results :).

But check out this post: http://www.protegemp3.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26817 about the MP3 rally engine for sale. It appears that they raised the compression ratio, 5 angle valve job, stiffer valve springs, Sunbelt cams/pulleys. They got 136whp (about 170hp at the crank with a 20% driveline loss) on a US Protege ECU! I imagine with proper tuning you'd see an even nicer gain.

NA can be done on these engines, but you can't expect too much. I think its for the kind of person that just wants their car to be a little more fun, but streetable.

Chris

[Installshield 2]

Thanks guys, I will probably hang around for a while if it is ok...I initially thought this board was mostly MSP's and aesthetic mods, which are cool but I don't know a whole lot about body kits and appearance modding, but if you guys care about performance I will try to let you know everything I can...I am still new to this engine (only owned my P5 for about 2 years) but there is definate potential for making it considerably more powerful...Sadly the Pclub seems to be gone, but even if it comes back I will start hanging around here more often, the traffic is nuts...

Hopefully the real tech guru's from the Pclub come over too...I noticed some posts from ED (don't worry about him being an asshole, it is not personal and he knows his shit)...Hopefully Traveler, Jesse, and Chris will get over here at some point...


Originally posted by DooMer_MP3

NA can be done on these engines, but you can't expect too much. I think its for the kind of person that just wants their car to be a little more fun, but streetable.

Chris

exactly...a 150whp NA Protege would be a lot of fun and be deceavingly quick compared to stock...

[1sty]

We definitly lack NA tuning knowledge here.

If anything I say we are specialized in turboing with all kit manufacturers being very active members here.

We even have a guy from J&S lurking about :D

[Blown]

Install - What would be the fix to help the FS breathe better? Higher cam lift? Increased throttle body size? Porting?

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally posted by Installshield 2

...
exactly...a 150whp NA Protege would be a lot of fun and be deceavingly quick compared to stock...

As far as engine management, in general "High Compression" cares about timing and fuel math...But with the poor breathing of an FS it will never breathe enough air to make

So what can be done to improve the breathing capability? Port and polish? Higher lift cams?

As far as NA, am I correct in assuming a stock clutch will be a decent, as there won't be such a blatant increase in torque at a given RPM like a turbo, where the sudden boost in power will cause slippage?

Depending on results I see from some of you my plans next year will be:
Header
Custom Cams
New exhaust (although I think the MP3 RB axle back with no cats or one high flow cat should be ok)
Piggyback

If I still had cash I'd do HC pistons as well and maybe the valve job/stiffer springs, but I doubt I'd have the dough after that...

Lets keep NA tuning alive guys. People gave up on it way too easily here because they never tuned it properly.

Chris

[Installshield 2]

Ha, I never finished my last post for some reason, I just deleted that last part becuase now I am not sure where I was going with it...

Sadly not a whole can be done to promote even better breathing...I was a little misleading the first time I posted that...

A stock FS-DE breathes like shit, everyone knows that...The engine bites it at just over 6,000 rpm. If you use the J-spec cams it will help immensely on a harder pull to redline despite only giving a couple more horsepower...That is what is really hard to explain to people...It is not just how much hp you are making but also where you are making it. With the cams you only make about 7-8hp more than stock, but that only illustrates a total peak gain of 7-8hp. if you compare the dynos back to back you see that the stock DE's power drops considerably at 6,200rpm and it peaks with about 102hp at 6,100 rpm on average...With the cams you will be making like 109hp at 6,500rpm but the significance is that it maintains that power all the way to redline, rather than dropping off. So the cam'd DE has 109hp at 6,500 were the stock DE is making more like 90hp at that particular rpm...Hopefully this is clear enough to see the significance...you only gain a few hp but you signifcantly lengthen the powerband, which definately helps situations where you need the engine boiling (Drag racing etc.)...

So more aggressive cams are a must for NA...The intake manifold on the stock DE seems to be ok...The runner length is pretty good for lowend torque and high end breathing. The breathing problem most likely is a combination of the fixed cam timing/lift head, undersquare engine properties, and the con ratio's...Like a lot of people have said you need to rev to make power NA. A FS will safely rev to about 7300 (The stock ECU rev limits around 7,000rpm, but most of us don't spend any time there becuase the power sucks), with the right mods the engine will make power considerably higher but you need to change the ECU to something that will be able to control the rev limit i.e. Stand Alone...Notice that the j-spec ecu for the FS-ZE revlimits at more like 7400 rpm, so our low redline is becuase Mazda figured us North Americans want lowend torque and would not rev the engine at all...and not that the engine physically can't handle those rev speeds...In short, if properly built an FS will easily pull a few hundred rpms above 7,000rpm. After that piston speeds become to great and engine tolerances will give in...

Obviously this is not high enough to promote crazy NA gains...The FS's block itself is very strong but it would take a lot of money to reinforce the bottom end to tolerate extremely high speeds...This is one reason why the Speed Touring cars FS's are so expensive...A lot of money on forging cranks and connecting rods is spent...And becuase of the fixed head you will get an annoyingly peaky, un-streetable engine (imagine making 225whp only between 7500-9300rpm, virtually no lowend torque, and cams aggressive enough to need a 3,000 rpm idle)

OK so here is the slews of mods...There is no single mod that will give big gains NA. Look at it like a turbo, you don't just buy a Turbocharger and gain 70whp, you have to buy a turbo and a bunch of misc pieces to make it work...The same applies with NA...start buy getting air to the engine...Do some research on building your own intake, if you get the diameters right 10hp is not too far out of the question...I have never had good experiences with polished or honed intake manifolds. They usually create more turbulence and in turn give less hp than before...If you are unlike me and want to stay 100% NA get a good header. IF anyone has seen the stock down-pipe you will know why this is a must...Then get a decent diameter exhuast (if staying NA and not planning on reinforcing the engine to speeds above 7300 rpm, no bigger than 2.75")..the Racing beat Cat-back seems to be one of the best for NA gains (remember bigger diameter is not always better, to big and you get exhuast pulses hanging around in the pipes, and they love to rob lowend torque) Then raise the compression, get a good ECU (stand alone seems the only way to go, but check E-Bay I have seen brand new E6K's going for less than $1,000 lately), and get the cams...These don't have to be done in any order really accept the ecu has to be in before the raised compression...And also each one of these mods gives more or less puny gains by itself, but all of these mods working together will be right around 165whp(figuring ZE spec compression ratio and ZE cams, more is attainable with more aggressive cams and a higher static compression ratio...custom pieces are the only way to go for that though)...Not to bad at all...doing the work yourself will make it a worthwhile route for some...

I am sorry this is so ridiculously long...tried to answer a bunch of question in one post

[1sty]

Originally posted by Installshield 2


I am sorry this is so ridiculously long...tried to answer a bunch of question in one post

Dude, don't worry about it!

That ws the most informative post ever on this site!!!
(thumb)

[Blown]

Thanks Installshield. Finally, a definite battle plan! One question, what is a E6K?

[1sty]

Read the thread.

[Installshield 2]

Originally posted by Blown
Thanks Installshield. Finally, a definite battle plan! One question, what is a E6K?

One of Haltech's excellent stand alone ECU's...A complete replacement for your stock ECU and it is programmable...goes for about $1300 new from what I remember but again E-Bay had a few from a private owner for about $890, I am not sure what I need for my setup yet so I passed but that is definately a good price if it is new...

You guys seem very interested in this NA stuff...I am going to track down Jesse and try to post the links to every single one of his excellent tech articles from the Pclub ( www.protegeclub.com is back up and running )...

[Familia323]

InstallShield2: Thanks a LOT, for joining the site man! From the last few posts I can tell you are going to help us guys interested in N/A by leaps and bounds. (thumb) And definately let us know how your set up works out.

[Installshield 2]

You are quite welcome dude...I will help out the best I can...

The problem I had with tuning advice was that I seemed to only get ideas from others that mostly pertained to engines in general (such as porting/polishing and displacement increases). Some of these general things are not very beneficial to an FS...So I have been trying to learn as much as possible about the FS to know where to start, and the tech guys at www.protegeclub.com are unreal. Without guys like Jesse and Ed I never would of got a chance to get the ball rolling...I started this project a while ago and have had to re-think a lot of issues and potential problems...It is a slow process but hopefully I will get it running exactly how I planned and can lay down a word for word explanation of each and every modification and what it does/why I did it...And also hopefully you guys can read about my mistakes and make adjustments to your setups accordingly...