Na?!?!

[DooMer_MP3]

Ok, I'm going to revive this subject once again. First off, I have been pretty much swayed that the dark side (forced induction) is the way to go on the FS-DE, but a few things have changed since then. One advantage NA has is that you can mod as you get the money. Don't have to save a bunch up for one thing. Also, NA can definitely be more reliable. Haven't heard of many people here damaging their engines without turbos or nitrous. Yes, if you do a turbo right, it can be bulletproof. But doing it right means extra $$$.

So whats changed? Well, we have a few products (some new) that should help the NA side...

OLD:
Intake (duh)
Exhaust
Cams (mazdaspeed or custom)
Adjustable camgears
High Compression Pistons

NEW:
AWR Header (first true bolt-on)
Larger Throttle Body
Different intake manifold (coming soon via perfworks)

And now to put all of these worthless parts together perfworks slaps us all across the face with his piggyback which can control fuel and timing all for a very nice price. So the puzzle has been solved for NA freaks. The ability to tune it for a decent price.

We know the J-Spec engine puts out ~162hp (170ps or something). So can we further tune it to put out 180hp or more at the crank? Look, I want more power, but I don't really need gobs of it. 200whp might be nice, but I simply can't do that right now. If my car gets destroyed, I won't have the money to fix it.

So I leave this thread here to discuss various options. Mainly because of the piggyback which seems to be the missing piece of the puzzle. Discuss amongst yourselves!

Chris

[KYREDP5]

Perfworks also has a larger MAF now IIRC.

EDIT: Don't forget motor mounts, and clutch and lightweight flywheel.

[DooMer_MP3]

Yeah I'm pretty sure its for Forced Induction though due to the larger volume of air you're cramming through the MAF.

Chris

[Matthew]

got the website for the AWR header? how much hp you think youll get from the header and intake manifold?

[PaulMP3]

someone with an mp3 spent a few g's tuning his NA mp3 and ended up blowing his motor. He posted it in protegeclub.com
it will be interesting to see what kind of power the awr header adds.

[Matthew]

yea im not interesting in doing my heads probably is the most likely cause of a blown motor

[mp3boy1984]

website for perfworks??

[sundevilMP5]

i think that a NA build up would be sweet...but i think in the end that it could be just as expensive as a turbo...i would still like to find out exactly what roger foo had his setup like...although a total track car still interesting to know...

[PaulMP3]

there was a write up in auto week on a scca protege race car. i think it had like 200hp and redline @ 8000. but i doubt it would last long, or be a daily driver.

[mp3boy1984]

oh yea, and any info on how much the intake manifold will be running?? How long until the release of it?? And will it be better than the intake manifold offered on the j-spec engines?? I need to know this in a hurry cuz i am planning on ordering my intake manifold very soon and need to make a decision

[DooMer_MP3]

As you can see, there is a little thread revival from a thread by "chooch" on his 130WHP P5 with: Custom cams, Header, K&N cone filter, and Racing beat exhaust:

http://www.protegemp3.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9590

I wonder how much his custom cams are. People on the other board also say that any cams past the Mazdaspeed cams might be too aggressive for the stock valve springs, thus causing valve float. Any opinions on this?

Anyhow, 130WHP with those mods and no computer tuning is pretty good. I wonder what some adjustable camgears, HC pistons and Perfworks piggyback could get out of this setup.

Chris

[DooMer_MP3]

Wow, and now it looks like RacingMazda.com will modify their MX-6 header to fit the Protege. And the thing is only ~$290. Sign up in the groupbuy forum if you're interested.

Chris

[Dimitrios]

I can't imagine any cam kit not recommending or being packaged with new valve springs - it only makes sense (for those of you that have built-up any US V8s, you'll know).

Does anyone know what the general parasitic losses are from the accessories and drivetain? A "rule-of-thumb" percentage would be fine....

[AndrewSilverMP5]

20% for manuals

25% for automatics

Disclaimer: That's my personal rule of thumb ... :D I'm not always right, but I'm hardly ever wrong. Heheh.

[DooMer_MP3]

I was hoping some of the known gearheads would jump in here :). Perfworks, chdesign etc. Where are ya guys? Perfworks, what can your piggyback do for a NA setup?

Chris

[20ESGUY]

Honestly, i think for most people that wanna go na and make some good power all you really need is the cams, header, cam gears, and the piggy back. With our cars running as rich as they do, the header should be the biggest improvement from that standpoint...leans out the a/f just a bit. With the piggyback system we could actually lean it out a little further, which would be great at WOT as it goes so rich now that we are probably losing some power. With those mods and some good tuning we could realisticaly see 170-190 at the crank. I think the bill for that will be quite a bit less than a 3K plus turbo kit and nearly the same numbers with less constant tuning. I think you'll find too, by going NA you'll see a more linear HP and torque curve than with a turbo vechile...don't get me wrong, turbo is fun...nothing like the feeling of being hit by a mac truck in the rear...but for all around everyday driving my personal opnion is to stay NA

[DooMer_MP3]

Thanks for the response man. Good stuff :). Yeah, we really do run pig rich. If I could see 180hp at the crank or close to it, I think I would enjoy my MP3 much more. I don't have the cash to fork over $3500 all at once plus money for new clutch and money for other misc. things that could go wrong with a turbo. So I might do the NA thing for awhile until I get rid of some debt as well. Still undecided and hope a friendly info session/debate in this thread will help.

Also, I wonder what Higher Compression pistons would do? What do those typically do over stock? Obviously a higher compression ratio but what does that do to low, mid, high end power? Because I was thinking if I went NA I'd get my head polished and while its apart throw in some HC pistons. Who knows.

The key to this all though is tuning, and its nice to see an affordable unit very close to production!

Chris

[20ESGUY]

HC pistons will give you a little extra punch from the midrange up till the upper rpm band. Just keep in mind that HC will cause knock earlier and requires premium fuel. Polishing is a good thing...while you're doing the polishing why not port match the exhaust and intake ports. that'll open em up a little so that they flow more air, and the more air you flow the more power you can make....thats what i like about NA it's all about the little details, polish this, port that, and most of the time if done in moderation it'll come out nicely.

[DooMer_MP3]

Thanks again 20ESGUY. Another question came to me. The MP3 has advanced ignition timing. I'm assuming that Perfworks' piggyback would advance timing on say a P5 or ES to give the same benefit the MP3 has. I wonder if the MP3 is advanced far enough, or is there room for more from the piggyback without knock. Would the MP3's current timing need to be retarded if HC pistons were purchased?

Cam timing (through adj. cam gears) is completely different, as it determines when each cam opens the intake/exhaust valves and controls overlap a bit, I take it. Is my understanding of cam timing correct? What are typical things people do with cam timing (specifically on the FS-DE) to get some gains? Thanks again. I'm just trying to get some information. I'll have to look around the net as well.

I'll have to look into some shops around Madison/Milwaukee for headwork. I'll also have to look at port matching some. Thanks!

Chris

[perfworks]

Originally posted by mp3boy1984
website for perfworks??
shes under construction.
about a week and a half shell be ready

[perfworks]

Originally posted by mp3boy1984
oh yea, and any info on how much the intake manifold will be running?? How long until the release of it?? And will it be better than the intake manifold offered on the j-spec engines?? I need to know this in a hurry cuz i am planning on ordering my intake manifold very soon and need to make a decision
the intake manifold will be ready in a little over a month. if your in a huury sorry but i need to test a few designs on the dyno first. not just going to slap somthing together. im known for doin shit right the first time.;)

[perfworks]

Originally posted by DooMer_MP3
I was hoping some of the known gearheads would jump in here :). Perfworks, chdesign etc. Where are ya guys? Perfworks, what can your piggyback do for a NA setup?

Chris
when i go to the dyno for the F/I results i will test boost and off boost. it will show CAI, ported and polished manifold and head and full exhaust work. The piggy will be installed and only then can i tell you how much she can help.
but remeber the more air charge you can process thru the motor the more power you will make . the piggy will help with that as long as your engine can breathe.
we are coming out with an N/A kit. Whoever is interested now is the time to PM me so that i can give you specifics of what we are coming up with. just like the guys have turbo kits the N/A guys will have theirs too

[snowman4us]

i whould be interested in the NA kit!!! i bet u whould get enough interenst to get a kit going...maby even stages!

[20ESGUY]

Cam timing (through adj. cam gears) is completely different, as it determines when each cam opens the intake/exhaust valves and controls overlap a bit, I take it. Is my understanding of cam timing correct? What are typical things people do with cam timing (specifically on the FS-DE) to get some gains? Thanks again. I'm just trying to get some information. I'll have to look around the net as well.

yes, you're correct on the cam timing. one neat thing with that is by adjusting the open/close timing on the intake side you can effectively retard or advance the igintion timing by adjusting the point at which the fuel charge enters the combustion chamber. The exhaust timing will effectively increase or shorten the duration of the fuel burn and scavenging effect of the exhaust. As for the MP3's timing, i think it's only 3 or 4 degrees advanced from ours, not quite sure. you could probably advance up to aroud 6-8 degrees without seeing too much predetenation.
there are a couple of guys on this board with MP3's running the FSZE HC pistons i beleive and i havent heard of problems with the timing. honestly 3-4 degrees is not all that far advanced. Hey Perfworks, what are you planning to include in your NA kit...something along the lines of header and head work i take it??

[perfworks]

The N/A kit is in the works now. We are physically working on it as we speak. It will consist of CAI, larger throttle body, intake manifold ( tuned for N/A ) , full tubular exhaust manifold with egr function and complete 2.5" exhaust with high flow cat and single chamber muffler. It will have a larger 80mm MAF meter along with a piggy back computer to control fuel , ignition and nitrous.
She will be ready in one month for testing. Any one interested can contact me for details. We are also looking for one vehicle to testit on. We will do it for our cost of the production

[Matthew]

dammit and to think i already have a cai and exhaust

[DooMer_MP3]

Originally posted by perfworks
The N/A kit is in the works now. We are physically working on it as we speak. It will consist of CAI, larger throttle body, intake manifold ( tuned for N/A ) , full tubular exhaust manifold with egr function and complete 2.5" exhaust with high flow cat and single chamber muffler. It will have a larger 80mm MAF meter along with a piggy back computer to control fuel , ignition and nitrous.
She will be ready in one month for testing. Any one interested can contact me for details. We are also looking for one vehicle to testit on. We will do it for our cost of the production

Is the 80mm MAF really necessary for a NA setup? We're not really cramming any more air in the engine. I would think the stock MAF would be just fine. But if you have reasons lay 'em on me :). I would definitely think about the larger throttle body and better intake manifold though. And if the header were a 4-2-1 or 4-1 design I would consider it as well, otherwise I might go with the RacingMazda header. And then of course there is the piggyback which should really help.

I'll probably look into custom cams and get the Tripoint camgears as well if I do go the NA route.

Chris

[snowman4us]

how mutch do u think its going to cost? and what HP gains are u thinking this kit will produce?
NA POWER!!!

also why are u guys now putting in higher comp. pistons, cams, pullys? just wondering.

[DooMer_MP3]

Usually thats one of the steps in NA tuning. Higher compression pistons, more aggresive cams, and cam gears to advance/retard the intake/exhaust cams.


Chris

[perfworks]

Originally posted by DooMer_MP3


Is the 80mm MAF really necessary for a NA setup? We're not really cramming any more air in the engine. I would think the stock MAF would be just fine. But if you have reasons lay 'em on me :). I would definitely think about the larger throttle body and better intake manifold though. And if the header were a 4-2-1 or 4-1 design I would consider it as well, otherwise I might go with the RacingMazda header. And then of course there is the piggyback which should really help.

I'll probably look into custom cams and get the Tripoint camgears as well if I do go the NA route.

Chris
It reads and meters proportionatly. The larger the meter the more range it has to meter the aircharge . Evry molecule will be acounted for and less fluctuation in voltage from the meter to the PCM. It simply reads more accurately. A N/A motor will want to rev more to make more power. In the higher RPM range the meter will accurately meter the airflow so the it is not " guessing" on the amount of fuel the engine needs. Like a map sensor and a smaller diameter meter which will "bottom out" and become a restriction. You see on todays heads you dont really need to dump fuel like in the old days. Long time ago you used to go to 10-10.5 :1 A/F ratios to produce power because of combustion chamber design. It wouldnt make any power because the molecules of air and fuel were not properly "spaced " for proper ignition and timing. Todays designs , for combustion chambers allow you to run very high static compression ratios and lower A/F ratios to get max power at 13:1.

So up top when you need to know how much fuel you need for power so you dont fall flat on your face , is key. The larger meter works that way. Think about it as a wideband O2 for the intake :)

[perfworks]

Originally posted by snowman4us
how mutch do u think its going to cost? and what HP gains are u thinking this kit will produce?
NA POWER!!!

also why are u guys now putting in higher comp. pistons, cams, pullys? just wondering.
i dont have a price on it yet but were looking for an additional 60 -80 hp . I am low balling it. With the piggy back she should be very powerfull.
I do recommend though upgrading to higher comp pistons and stronger rods but for the street you should be OK with stock
You have stock 9.1:1 comp. right now. with some better cams you should see great gains with the kit.

after the F/I kit is done we will start to finish up on the N/A kit

[snowman4us]

I WANT IT!!!!!
60-80HP that whould be sick!!!! that whould make some Turbo owners look pussy. are u thinking it whould cost under $2K?
also that whould be using Stock internals right?also stock cams/springs?
and what whould red line be uped to?

[perfworks]

Originally posted by snowman4us
I WANT IT!!!!!
60-80HP that whould be sick!!!! that whould make some Turbo owners look pussy. are u thinking it whould cost under $2K?
also that whould be using Stock internals right?also stock cams/springs?
and what whould red line be uped to?
All of those questions will be answered when we go to the dyno and tune. I will have to wait till then to give you more specifics. Like i said in the earlier post ( i think i did in this thread) i will need a car in new jersey or the surrounding area to put the system on. Every car that has called so far has been for install of a turbo kit. I need someone N/A
The kit we can do at cost so we can get it bolted up and started.

[Pro Fiz]

god damnit, i wish i wasn't moving on the 11th i would let you test on my car.

[AnthonyO3]

I was planning on going N/A, I am talking about throttle body, manifold all that good stuff. I have a Mp3, will any upgrades mess with the ECU, or if I am thinking right the piggy back will take care of that, right?
If everything is going to be compatible with the Mp3 then I am all for it.

[twilightprotege]

i'd be very interested to see the testing dyno runs (i very much hope you do numerous runs)....good work perfworks

[shortyhawaii1]

Prefworks, you are the man!! This is what I've been looking for! Sounds like a hard core sweet deal. Hope to get some more details on this kit soon.

[perfworks]

Originally posted by AnthonyO3
I was planning on going N/A, I am talking about throttle body, manifold all that good stuff. I have a Mp3, will any upgrades mess with the ECU, or if I am thinking right the piggy back will take care of that, right?
If everything is going to be compatible with the Mp3 then I am all for it.
yes the piggyback will tune the car for max power and efficiency no matter what upgrades have been done. After speaking with my Partner we will have 2 stages of kit for N/A operation

[perfworks]

Originally posted by shortyhawaii1
Prefworks, you are the man!! This is what I've been looking for! Sounds like a hard core sweet deal. Hope to get some more details on this kit soon.
i just need one month. i will have some results.
Some one with a car in Jersey??
let me know who would like to drop theur car off for one to test in.
ill eventualy find someone but a person from the forum would be nice

[AndrewSilverMP5]

Hey Nick,

I'm willing to drop my car off for a while for you to test on ... I'll give you a call on your cell sometime this week, and we can work out the details.

Andrew

[DooMer_MP3]

This is awesome to hear if it really works out (60-80hp). Thats a bold claim perfworks :D. Its been widely "accepeted" around here that there isn't much power in the FS-DE for a NA application unless you spend gobs of money. So I hope you can show us differently.

I still love the fact that you can upgrade as you can afford it with NA. No huge initial startup costs like a turbo. So I think I'm going to go this route. And maybe someday when I have gobs of money I'll buy a separate motor and get her all prepped for a turbo.

I anxiously await your results. For now I think I'll get me a header!

Chris

[snowman4us]

im so stolked!!!! an NA kit is way better then a Turbo kit(it myopiniton). the engine whould last longer, no knob to turn to get more HP and blow engine;) .
i can inmagine it, red line at like 9k :p (guns)

[20ESGUY]

I'm thinkin stage III kit...stroker forged rods, domed/indexed HC pistons, flow benched/ported head, titanium dual rate valve springs and retainers, titanium valves, forged flycut crank, mild lift/long duration cams, adj. cam gears, modified combustion chamber, maybe even a dual plug setup. honestly i'd love to see someone do that, but i don't see myself going that far anytime soon with a daily driver nor do i have the cash to drop on it, but it is nice to dream a little!

[snowman4us]

perfworks u guys whould do what COBB Tuning does(subaru comp. but i bet u already know that) u guys get an engine block and u completely rebuild it and sell it for let say 3000. but if the person send u back ther OLD engine u whould give him 1000 off.
do u see what im saying?

[DooMer_MP3]

That takes the fun out of researching and buying/installing the parts yourself and actually learning something! :D. But thats a cool idea.

Chris

[snowman4us]

well its all about what is convinest for u. but if they build the engine ull know that its built right and if something happends thats not supose to u know where to look for anwsers.
also it whould just be the block so u still whould have fun conectint it to a trany, droping it in, and all the other fun stuff.

[DooMer_MP3]

Right on. So where does one get custom cams anyhow? What would be some decent specs to have some cams ground to? Something more aggressive than FS-ZE/Mazdaspeed, but not something that will completely destroy idle?

Also, I have a question about revs. What limits revs? Obviously the ECU, but why at ~7100rpms? What would you upgrade to get the motor to rev higher safely?

Chris

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by DooMer_MP3
Also, I have a question about revs. What limits revs? Obviously the ECU, but why at ~7100rpms? What would you upgrade to get the motor to rev higher safely?
Chris

AFAIK, you'd build the head. Starting w/ cams, springs, maybe valves, rockers, and all that nonsense as well. Port and polish couldn't hurt either.

I think perf's intake manifold will add some good HP to everyone's cars.

[20ESGUY]

Yeah...one of the biggest is not so much the port and polish but the valve springs, valve seat angle, and valve overlap. the springs and seats will cause valve "float" at which point the valves won't seat because the springs can't "spring" back fast enough and the seat's not angled enough to let the valve seat in the head with very little spring tension. If you plan on doing a lot of high rpm use get the dual rate springs and do a 3 or 5 angle job on the valves and have them relapped.