N/A horse power?

[snowman4us]

howmutch WHP do u think u can get out of an N/A FS engine? im thinking around 190-200 WHP
and what could u do?
intake,
exaust,headers
intake cams
exaust cams,
valves, valve springs,
intake manifold,
11:1 compresion pistons, rods
bore out the cyl.
port andpolish the intake & exaust manifords.

all i could think of for now
:rolleyes:

[melicha8]

The world challenge protege's are over 200 WHP but those are of course race vehicles so I don't think you will be getting those kinds of numbers without extensive head work, very aggressive cams, and some race gas. Can someone post the link to the PDF with all of the engine spec's? It's at the speed world challenge site I think. I have to go to a final now.

[AndrewSilverMP5]

190-200 hp is a totally unrealistic expectation of our engines. :( The only way to ever achieve that is to turbo. And even then the stage 1 turbo from Spool only puts out 167whp.

I would imagine that the total gain you would see from all those modifications you listed would be 30 to 35 whp, and that's being generous. Our engines just weren't built for NA modifications. (argh)

And, for the money you'd be spending on all of those NA mods, you can buy a turbo kit. ;) Food for thought ...

[Captain KRM P5]

Andrew took the words right out of my mouth. CHDesign, one of our former members, did just such work to his Protege, and was only able to curb 40 extra horses from his engine. You're better off and cheaper off going forced induction (t-t-t-t-t-turboooo!)

post 800 - w00t!

[snowman4us]

damb why didnt mazda put Valve Timing in our cars.
i cant deside eather i want to go N/A or turbo. bacouse i like to autoX and in autoX it is nice to have power on demand instead of having to drop a gear and be at red line like 2 sec. after.
so what do u guys think? 200WHP hard to get, while maintaining the car street drivable?

[AndrewSilverMP5]

You need to be honest with yourself.

Do you consider yourself to be a hardcore tuner ?
If so, by all means, go forward with your NA plans and see how far you can push the engine, or take FI route with greater gains for just about the same amoutn of money spent. Either way, you'll be investing thousands of dollars into your car.

OR

Do you just want a fast and fun car, period ?
In this case, just take that money you would be spending on go-faster-than-the-speed-of-sound mods and save up for a vehicle in a higher class. (WRX/STI, Evo, Audi A4 1.8T, Enzo Ferrari ... etc. ;) ) You may even throw in a few NA mods into the P5 just to give it a lil extra zoom, but for the most part ... save! :D

Good luck with whatever road you take. (2thumbs)

[perfworks]

Originally posted by AndrewSilverMP5
190-200 hp is a totally unrealistic expectation of our engines. :( The only way to ever achieve that is to turbo. And even then the stage 1 turbo from Spool only puts out 167whp.

I would imagine that the total gain you would see from all those modifications you listed would be 30 to 35 whp, and that's being generous. Our engines just weren't built for NA modifications. (argh)

And, for the money you'd be spending on all of those NA mods, you can buy a turbo kit. ;) Food for thought ...
not true 200 whp is attainable with what he posted but engine management is what will get him there

[Pro Fiz]

I plan on trying to get some decent power out of my engine when i goto school. So we will see, i will have access to a dyno too, so i'll keep you all posted. But I don't see why 200 whp is un-realistic, if the person who is doing it has a good grasp of what they are doing. It won't be cheap for sure, but do-able, yes.

[deckedoutmp5]

i would go F/I with a turbo, run it about 7-8 you will be at about 200 new rods and pistons on other wise stock internals you will be at 250 easy at 9-10 lbs. very safe, just tune it good and yes, what was said above engine managment is the key... no gas = boom. and the debate is still going on with the 280 injectors vs 440 whatever. i think the 280s are fine. but the 2.0 blocks are VERY stable and solid. :)

peace- trav

[snowman4us]

well 200 seams allot sense B18 have a hard time gitting that mutch N/A power and they have Valve Timing.
also if i was to go w/ F/I i know i whould have a hard time keeping my hands of the boost controler:rolleyes: .
i can see me doing this
"just one more turn of the boost know wont hurt:) .....BOOOOOOOOM":(

[03P5]

Buy the crate FS-ZE and start at 170HP with VVT. The prices are cheap compared to the H22 swap I did in my Accord. $1850 for the engine.

The trouble is finding someone who has any knowledge of that swap.

As soon as my drivetrain warranty is up, its Turbo or more like Turbo + FS-ZE for my car. Depending on what prices do, I'm probably going to buy that engine before I need it, incase it becomes a more common swap as our cars get older, and the price goes up.

I think a more reasonable WHP for our cars is 165-170. My F22A6 from the accord was 142 crank stock, and after intake,cams, header,exhaust, and ECU it had 160 WHP. But that SOHC and 2.2L. Its also had 147 lb/ft of torque, which was great for a Honda.

[perfworks]

Originally posted by 03P5
Buy the crate FS-ZE and start at 170HP with VVT. The prices are cheap compared to the H22 swap I did in my Accord. $1850 for the engine.

The trouble is finding someone who has any knowledge of that swap.

As soon as my drivetrain warranty is up, its Turbo or more like Turbo + FS-ZE for my car. Depending on what prices do, I'm probably going to buy that engine before I need it, incase it becomes a more common swap as our cars get older, and the price goes up.

I think a more reasonable WHP for our cars is 165-170. My F22A6 from the accord was 142 crank stock, and after intake,cams, header,exhaust, and ECU it had 160 WHP. But that SOHC and 2.2L. Its also had 147 lb/ft of torque, which was great for a Honda.
the ZE motor need the OBDI stock ecu from japan to reach 170 HP
it will not happen with the stock ecu we have. Furthermore , the rods in that motor will not hold up to boost

[jaje]

worldchallege proteges engine can only last 4 races before they have to be rebuilt

forced induction is the only way with these engines to make reliable daily driver power

[melicha8]

Originally posted by jaje
worldchallege proteges engine can only last 4 races before they have to be rebuilt

forced induction is the only way with these engines to make reliable daily driver power

Keep in mind though that these are driven really hard, and the final drive is not helping to keep those revs down either. I think if you did the kind of work the world challenge proteges and were not driving like crazy all the time and with proper maintenence it would last a long time

[melicha8]

BTW here is the chart with all the specs
Big differences
Throttle Body
8" wide tires
13:1 CR
aluminum block vs our steel block

http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/vts2003/03-MazdaProtege%C9rotege5-2.0.pdf

[03P5]

Why are the rods in the ZE weak? I thought the bottom end was the same as our engine? Anyways, even "weak" rods would have no problem running around at the 4-5psi mark that the Stage1 spool kit runs.

The engine at the wreckers here comes with the ECU from Japan, so I think it would be best to get one with your crate engine. My H22 from Japan came with the ECU, tranny, axles and everything. I don't think the VVT engine would work at all with the North American ECU would it?

[cdglowp5]

I think it is very easy to get 70 HP out of our motors going N/A. I would find a engine shop that does custom cam grinds. FInd out the mazda intake duration numbers then change those numbers. The exhaust cam I would do a suttle regrind.

I would also get the 10.7 to 1 pistons.
The throttle body boring out is a waste on these fs motors. Its a waste of 200 bucks. I would get the head tweaked. Also if you deck the head aka shave the head you can also increase the compression ratio. With the 10.7 to 1 pistons I would go .045 which will raise the ratio to 11.56 to 1.

Evrybody always says right away engine management. I would skip that for now. Our cars already drop alot of gas. Until you can get anymore horsepower I would save down the road for engine management.

Also buy adjustable cam gears/sprokets. Retard the intake came 3 degrees and advance the exhaust 2.

The FS motor is very similar to the BP. Similar not Identical.

Get a stage two clutch and a lighten flywheel as well.

I can get the cams made for 230 for both
Deck head with port and polish 350
cam gears 200
header 400

1180 for 70 HP compared to 2900+++ for turbo which destroys your motor faster and has the same HP.

Everyone has the fast and furious TURBO and NOS Dude.

Just do what you want to do

[perfworks]

Originally posted by 03P5
Why are the rods in the ZE weak? I thought the bottom end was the same as our engine? Anyways, even "weak" rods would have no problem running around at the 4-5psi mark that the Stage1 spool kit runs.

The engine at the wreckers here comes with the ECU from Japan, so I think it would be best to get one with your crate engine. My H22 from Japan came with the ECU, tranny, axles and everything. I don't think the VVT engine would work at all with the North American ECU would it?
Now you are right. The motor can take slight boost. But i remember reading that the ZE in that market came with high compression pistons. Please correct me if im wrong.

[TheMAN]

there is no "VVT"


Originally posted by 03P5
Why are the rods in the ZE weak? I thought the bottom end was the same as our engine? Anyways, even "weak" rods would have no problem running around at the 4-5psi mark that the Stage1 spool kit runs.

The engine at the wreckers here comes with the ECU from Japan, so I think it would be best to get one with your crate engine. My H22 from Japan came with the ECU, tranny, axles and everything. I don't think the VVT engine would work at all with the North American ECU would it?

[03P5]

Isn't the Jap version variable valve timing on the intake side, hence the extra HP?

Otherwise, where do they get 170HP out of the same 2.0L displacement. Pistons and cams are good for some, but not 38HP.

[TheMAN]

No
just a more aggressive cam, high compression pistons and better intake manifold

[perfworks]

Originally posted by cdglowp5
I think it is very easy to get 70 HP out of our motors going N/A. I would find a engine shop that does custom cam grinds. FInd out the mazda intake duration numbers then change those numbers. The exhaust cam I would do a suttle regrind.

I would also get the 10.7 to 1 pistons.
The throttle body boring out is a waste on these fs motors. Its a waste of 200 bucks. I would get the head tweaked. Also if you deck the head aka shave the head you can also increase the compression ratio. With the 10.7 to 1 pistons I would go .045 which will raise the ratio to 11.56 to 1.

Evrybody always says right away engine management. I would skip that for now. Our cars already drop alot of gas. Until you can get anymore horsepower I would save down the road for engine management.

Also buy adjustable cam gears/sprokets. Retard the intake came 3 degrees and advance the exhaust 2.

The FS motor is very similar to the BP. Similar not Identical.

Get a stage two clutch and a lighten flywheel as well.

I can get the cams made for 230 for both
Deck head with port and polish 350
cam gears 200
header 400

1180 for 70 HP compared to 2900+++ for turbo which destroys your motor faster and has the same HP.

Everyone has the fast and furious TURBO and NOS Dude.

Just do what you want to do
I have to add to some of your comments.
You are right about the throttle body being a waste of money because you can only take about 2mm off so it would be wise to go with a new manifold and throttle body.
But when you talk about raising compression thru decking the head i have to say that is a very bad idea. You are erasing a certain amount of quench that was designed into the combustion chamber. This will cause detonation that you can not control without some IGNITION retard and or additional engine management and higher octane fuel.
Now an EMS is the only way to get more power out of this car or any late model vehicle because of the latest head designs and lack of ignition control mechanically.
Whenever you stray away from OE specs even if you stay N/A you WILL NEED to get some engine management . So to say that it is not needed is a scary thought

[perfworks]

Originally posted by TheMAN
No
just a more aggressive cam, high compression pistons and better intake manifold
Thank you its what i thought.
The higher static compression will not allow alot of room for error with forced induction on the stock rods. This is my opinion but i believe it to be true. Some may disagree

[uclap5]

maybe he was thinking about the VTCS, but if he was hes got it backwards.

[starflare21]

i don't think 190-200 isn't too bad of a goal. set the goal high or it isn't worth it.

obvious mods are:

p&p the head
more aggressive cams
better intake manifold
larger tb
redesigned free flowng header (according to RB this is probably a real power robber)
standalone management such as Autronic (if you're SERIOUS about making power, this is not an option... it's a requirement)
slightly larger and free flowing exhaust
higher compression pistons (pretty much you might as do most of the bottom end while your at it)

if hondas can do it... why not? JUN is known to build killer n/a machines in their h&a category and are also reliable.

[KYREDP5]

Why does everyone alway say the FS-ZE it 170hp? It's not! Not I tell you! :D It's actually 170ps which converts to around 164-165hp.

[twilightprotege]

my input - 200whp easy from our engines. all you need is :

intake manifold
throttle body
exhaust (engine back)
hc pistons
head work
cams
ecu

easy, i say easy hit 200whp....but just like any engine tuning, do it right the first time and you'll get it no probs. do it wrong and you could loose power (seen it done on a b16a...very badly ofcourse)

later

[trobbins]

According to a recent magazine (I don't remember if it was car & driver or something else) The Speed channel protege is the only car in those races that is allowed to do major modifications. They only let the protege do this because the other cars have more HP stock than the protege and they try to even things out. They say the power band is weak on the protege until 6000 rpm when it kicks in and pulls to 8000 rpm.
I don't know about you guys, but running 6000 to 8000 rpm is not something I want to do to my car. Plus this proves that they do some extensive work on those things.

I think your best bet is F/I. A few people on this board have added the Cams and exhaust, and didn't see much improvement.

Good luck though, I would be interested in your results.

Tim

[twilightprotege]

just to quickly add to trobbins' post - correct a few people have added cams and exhaust, but i've said time and time again, mazdaspeed cams SUCK!!!! they are so small in the world of cams. hell there are a real lot of cars out there who's stock cams have more duration and lift than those mazdaspeed ones. try adding (these are the specs i'm getting made up) 266deg duration @ 0.006", 225deg duration @ 0.050" and lift of 0.355". then you'll see a lot more power...mind you it'll be all from 4500rpm up

in relation to that comment not wanting to rev your car to 8000rpm...that's a bit further to my previous comment. if the engine if built properly, 8000rpm should be a peice of cake...there is no reason a well built fs-ze wont rev to 10000rpm

and i must comment, engine management is a huge factor in ANY decent serious engine tuning

later

[gcs118]

I wouldn't go very aggressive on the cams, read through this :

http://www.protegeclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26562

The FS-DE does not really have NA potential, unless you have a money tree or something.

[AndrewSilverMP5]

So ... the proteges of the professional racing scene only put out 240 hp ? Is that to the wheels or at the crank ? If the latter, that's a sad output for the amount of money invested in the the engine. ($17,000, I believe that thread claimed) (notcool)

[starflare21]

what are the specific rules & regulations concerning modifications for the races anyway? that's something that always comes into factor and limits teams/cars to how much they can modify or produce. for example for rally racing they have a certain HP cap but torque is pretty much unlimited, this is why you see WRC rally cars having not too high of a HP rating but massive torque power.

[Tonpow]

Originally posted by perfworks

not true 200 whp is attainable with what he posted but engine management is what will get him there

BINGO. The stock engine management is good for neither power or economy.

#1 ECU priority is low NOX emissions.
#2 ECU priority is damage control.
#3 ECU priority is economy
and a distant #4 is performance.

The stock ECU keeps the car at 14.7 for as long as it can in as many conditions as it can ("chemically correct ratio', lowest point of NOx emissions, best compromise emissions blah, blah, blah).

Then as soon as the car senses even a moderate(mild in my opinion) load over a short time, it goes open loop and way rich. No good for power or economy, but good for safety.

Long story short...With good management. 11:1 compression, "real" head work, attention to detail, cams, exhaust, etc...I see no reason why 175-200 isn't attainable. Its just a question of cost/HP over turbo.

[twilightprotege]

gcs118, that thread is a joke. jspec cams too agressive for our cars? LMAO!!!!!!! that is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard in my life...

cams are basically a trade off. want low end power, small cams. want high end power, big cams. those specs i wrote are somewhere just above the middle of the line

[gcs118]

Originally posted by twilightprotege
gcs118, that thread is a joke. jspec cams too agressive for our cars? LMAO!!!!!!! that is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard in my life...

cams are basically a trade off. want low end power, small cams. want high end power, big cams. those specs i wrote are somewhere just above the middle of the line

First of all, I am not the one who originally said they were too aggressive for our cars. Second of all, if you read through it all you would have gotten more out of it. And thirdly, our engines can't handle any cam specs, there ARE limits. :rolleyes:

[mopiko]

:eek: 13:1 compression ratio aluminum head, 3.625 stroke, 3.327 bore!!! :eek: 215 hp 160lb-ft@5000rpm...

That's pretty cool. Considering it's still 2.0....

[twilightprotege]

gcs118, yeah i did read through the entire thread and to be quite honest, no i didnt get anything out of it. our engines are quite good, contrary to what most people think. a few upgrades (rod, intake manifold, cams, exhaust) we we have a pretty darn good engine capable of good numbers, above 100hp per litre....i cannot see any issues with that 1 little bit.