Short Shifters...is this true?

[ghetto waggon]

"Do understand that setting too short of a throw can destroy your gear synchronizers much faster. Short shifters makes shifting much faster, but at a toll of the gear synchronizers. Remember to shift softly with some finesse!"

??????

If that is the case, the stealership could definetly argue that something that potentially damages the synchros voids the warranty.

Does anyone have any additional info ?

[ForceFed]

I don't know about that one??If you aren't grinding gears than you should be ok.Now an in experienced driver with a short throw could be dangerous!

[chuyler1]

Whether you have a short shift kit or not they're prolly going to hassle you saying that your shifting patterns are what caused the problem...whatever that problem may be that is affected by a short-shift kit.

[www.03msp.com]

B.S. Does not affect the transmisson. The throw from the bottom of the linkage to the transmission is the same. The throw to the drivers is shorter. Duh.

- Brian

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by zmzmp5
B.S. Does not affect the transmisson. The throw from the bottom of the linkage to the transmission is the same. The throw to the drivers is shorter. Duh.

- Brian

I said the same thing to the tech when my P5 was in for service and, after a short road test, he had mentioned the warranty could be voided if I did not remove the B&M :bs:

[mazdadan]

Short shifter's shouldn't cause serious damage unless you are rough on transmissions to begin with. I've got 43K on my protege and have had the B&M shifter since the first month I bought it and the tranny is fine. My old RX-7 had over 140K on it with a short shifter...again no problems.

[Tornado]

My Dealership installed the Kartboy short shifter and bushings. They said no problem. I hope it's not a problem. As someone else said the short shifter only changes the throw to the driver. at least that's my understanding of the system.

[KYREDP5]

Why'd you take it to the dealer for a short shifter? It's almost the eaisest thing you can do yourself. Couple screws, couple bolts, and a snap ring.

[P5ive]

If you want to prolong the life of your transmission try rev matching. I got into the habit when I had my RX-7 a while back and so now instead of slamming into gear I'm at least within the RPM range of my next shift.

[Glauconite]

Originally posted by Red Baron


I said the same thing to the tech when my P5 was in for service and, after a short road test, he had mentioned the warranty could be voided if I did not remove the B&M :bs:

(lol) funniest thing i've ever read... the mech must be on crack or something... lolz... "could be voided"??? err.. it's either voided or not... no?? hahaha...

[Andres]

I was thinking about something I find interesting :

What may cause certain damage to the synchros may actually be leaving your hand on the shifter for more than the necessary just to shift between gears...

I thought about this,,, If with a regular shifter you move along a larger arc (longer shifting distance to your hand), and with a short shift kit your arc is reduced so you "shift shorter", but still in both cases the action below the pivot point is the same (it should be that way I think!), then if you leave your hand on the gearshift knob in a stock configuration, the effort made on the shift bar -that at the same time acts on the trans- will be less than the same hand-on-the-knob situation in a short shift kit.

So I figured leaving your hand in the gearshift knob longer than really necessary could eventually damage the trans to some extent...

Well, I don't see many race-car drivers taking the steering wheel with just one hand...:p

Or maybe I just have too much time right now to think about such thing... guess I'll leave it like that!, I have to catch a plane!.

Later,
FEDE.

[KYREDP5]

Originally posted by Andres
I was thinking about something I find interesting :

What may cause certain damage to the synchros may actually be leaving your hand on the shifter for more than the necessary just to shift between gears...

I thought about this,,, If with a regular shifter you move along a larger arc (longer shifting distance to your hand), and with a short shift kit your arc is reduced so you "shift shorter", but still in both cases the action below the pivot point is the same (it should be that way I think!), then if you leave your hand on the gearshift knob in a stock configuration, the effort made on the shift bar -that at the same time acts on the trans- will be less than the same hand-on-the-knob situation in a short shift kit.

So I figured leaving your hand in the gearshift knob longer than really necessary could eventually damage the trans to some extent...

Well, I don't see many race-car drivers taking the steering wheel with just one hand...:p

Or maybe I just have too much time right now to think about such thing... guess I'll leave it like that!, I have to catch a plane!.

Later,
FEDE.

Actually, with a short shifter resting your hand on the shifter would put less force on it due to the decreased lever, as opposed to the longer lever. Think of it this way, long lever=less force required to shift. Short lever=more force required to shift.

So....If you applied equal force to each lever (resting your hand) you would get an output of force greater with the stock lever.

Ya follow? I don't think I explained that well....

[andy_guerriero]

Originally posted by P5ive
If you want to prolong the life of your transmission try rev matching. I got into the habit when I had my RX-7 a while back and so now instead of slamming into gear I'm at least within the RPM range of my next shift.

This is good advice that you don't see people talking about around here often. Downshifting and double-clutching are two things that can add tons of life to your transmission.

[AlexMack]

http://www.bmracing.com/products/shiftThrow.gif

[Murda]

I have to rev match the P5 when I downshift otherwise its just too uncomfortable.

[ghetto waggon]

Lets....figure out the answer isntead of fighting!

The quote came from the site everyone is pulling the TSB's off of, so I'd claim it to be at least somewhat reliable. The other info on the site was pretty useful to me to boot.

Tom@karboy, any words?

Red Baron, what happened with your little ultimatem to take it off?

[ghetto waggon]

**I think it might make sense, that if the throw is much shorter, and you do ride your hand on the shifter, that the same amount of pressure in one direction with the SS would be, eh 40-50% more than on the OEM shifter?

[jophus14]

sure i know that a short shifter will improve performance, but i think it'll look a whole lot better then the stock shifter..this is one reason why i wanted it..i just started driving a manual car 2 weeks ago and i was thinking about getting a B&M short shifter. now after reading what everyone had to say, i am wondering if it's worth it. i am still in-experienced and i don't want to mess up the trans. what do you think?

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by milmoejoe
Lets....figure out the answer isntead of fighting!

The quote came from the site everyone is pulling the TSB's off of, so I'd claim it to be at least somewhat reliable. The other info on the site was pretty useful to me to boot.

Tom@karboy, any words?

Red Baron, what happened with your little ultimatem to take it off?

The B&M is still on the car...I have not seen that :bs: tech again...he was fired :D . Thanks for asking.

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by jophus14
sure i know that a short shifter will improve performance, but i think it'll look a whole lot better then the stock shifter..this is one reason why i wanted it..i just started driving a manual car 2 weeks ago and i was thinking about getting a B&M short shifter. now after reading what everyone had to say, i am wondering if it's worth it. i am still in-experienced and i don't want to mess up the trans. what do you think?

My opinion :

Good : quicker shifts, shorter throws, very precise, great feedback

Bad : more effort is needed to change gears

I've had manual transmission cars since 1984, and if I had know about short shifters before last year I would have had them in ALL my cars. Best thing I did on the P5. I have driven F1600 race cars and the shift feeling you get with a shorty in your everyday car is very close to what you get in the race car (they are WAY much closer but the mechanical feeling is very similar).

Jophus14 : go for it.

[KYREDP5]

Originally posted by milmoejoe
**I think it might make sense, that if the throw is much shorter, and you do ride your hand on the shifter, that the same amount of pressure in one direction with the SS would be, eh 40-50% more than on the OEM shifter?

You've got it backwards, a short shifter is harder to shift. So it requires an imput of more force to do the same work as the stock shifter. Therefore if does not magnify the force that is input as much as the stock one.

Think of it thins way, if you were trying to pry something up, which would apply more force, a long screwdriver,, or a short one?

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Red Baron


I said the same thing to the tech when my P5 was in for service and, after a short road test, he had mentioned the warranty could be voided if I did not remove the B&M :bs:

wrong,
look at several aftermarket short shifters its the part thats after the ball the matter the bottom half you want this longer for a shorter throw, so what you just said makes no sense basically your saying that your idea of a short shifter is the lower it is for the driver adn thats just not the trueth, the driver can hav ea shifter from the console out the windows and still be a short throw shifter becuz of whats after the ball man.

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by Ryan


wrong,
look at several aftermarket short shifters its the part thats after the ball the matter the bottom half you want this longer for a shorter throw, so what you just said makes no sense basically your saying that your idea of a short shifter is the lower it is for the driver adn thats just not the trueth, the driver can hav ea shifter from the console out the windows and still be a short throw shifter becuz of whats after the ball man.

What in the world do you mean? My intervention made sense, it's the tech that was way off... I may not be 100% bilingual my friend, but your written english sucks.

[chuyler1]

The ideal short shift kit has a short upper half and a long lower half...That is the combo that will produce the least amount of travel by your hand. However, lenthening the lower part of the shaft screws with the internals of the transmission...I'm not an expert about that so correct me if I'm wrong.

...here's what happens in basic physics. We'll asume that the lower part of the arm is equal. When the upper length of the rod is shorter, the amount of torqe (produced by your arm) required to move it is greater. Its just like a car jack. Its easy to lift the car when using the far end of the jack, but try pushing down from half way and see how tough it is.

Even though the short shifter requires more torque from you, the force on the other side of the ball is equal to a long shaft except for one thing...MOMENTUM. When you have to push the shifter hard, you are more likely to slam it into its farthest position. Its this slamming that can wear out the forks on your transmission. With a standard shifter you (well at least I) are just guiding the stick into the right position and letting it stop where it wants to almost effortlessly.

If you get used to the travel length of a short shifter it won't be so much of a problem...in fact I doubt it has ever cause a problem that didn't already exist from the driver's shifting style. But if you are acustomed to moving the shifter hard, then a short shifter will aggrevate the situation. A tip is to never grab ahold of it. use the palm of your hand with your fingers relaxed and you'll be ok.

[mazdadan]

Originally posted by chuyler1
The ideal short shift kit has a short upper half and a long lower half...That is the combo that will produce the least amount of travel by your hand. However, lenthening the lower part of the shaft screws with the internals of the transmission...I'm not an expert about that so correct me if I'm wrong.

...here's what happens in basic physics. We'll asume that the lower part of the arm is equal. When the upper length of the rod is shorter, the amount of torqe (produced by your arm) required to move it is greater. Its just like a car jack. Its easy to lift the car when using the far end of the jack, but try pushing down from half way and see how tough it is.

Even though the short shifter requires more torque from you, the force on the other side of the ball is equal to a long shaft except for one thing...MOMENTUM. When you have to push the shifter hard, you are more likely to slam it into its farthest position. Its this slamming that can wear out the forks on your transmission. With a standard shifter you (well at least I) are just guiding the stick into the right position and letting it stop where it wants to almost effortlessly.

If you get used to the travel length of a short shifter it won't be so much of a problem...in fact I doubt it has ever cause a problem that didn't already exist from the driver's shifting style. But if you are acustomed to moving the shifter hard, then a short shifter will aggrevate the situation. A tip is to never grab ahold of it. use the palm of your hand with your fingers relaxed and you'll be ok.

Agreed....It is more driver error/abuse that kills transmissions and drivetrain components. This is why I will match revs and double-clutch from time to time. It helps take some of the shock off of the drivetrain. Like mentioned in an earlier post, double-clutching and rev matching are becoming a lost art.

[chuyler1]

I always rev match...a way to know if you're doing it or not is to watch your passengers...do they jerk back and forth when you shift? Do you get a second whiplash from the drive train after you let out the clutch? Driving a standard can be almost as smooth as an automatic during normal driving conditions.

as far as dbl clutching goes, I try it every once in a while but my feet are too big. I have to be either braking fairly hard or not braking at all (in which case I just tap the gas with my foot and let it coast to the right rpms before I let out the clutch.

Usually I just wait till the car slows down to just above the idle speed for a particular gear before letting the clutch out. In heavy traffic this works fine cause I don't need the high rpm power to accelerate, I just want to keep the car rolling at idle.

[herarety]

Originally posted by chuyler1
I always rev match...a way to know if you're doing it or not is to watch your passengers...do they jerk back and forth when you shift? Do you get a second whiplash from the drive train after you let out the clutch? Driving a standard can be almost as smooth as an automatic during normal driving conditions.

as far as dbl clutching goes, I try it every once in a while but my feet are too big. I have to be either braking fairly hard or not braking at all (in which case I just tap the gas with my foot and let it coast to the right rpms before I let out the clutch.

Usually I just wait till the car slows down to just above the idle speed for a particular gear before letting the clutch out. In heavy traffic this works fine cause I don't need the high rpm power to accelerate, I just want to keep the car rolling at idle.

you're thinking of heel-toe as double clutching. double clutching is just letting the clutch out while in neutral, between gears, right? but i thought this wasn't necesary or even beneficial for newer cars, since we have synchronized trannies?

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Red Baron


What in the world do you mean? My intervention made sense, it's the tech that was way off... I may not be 100% bilingual my friend, but your written english sucks.

sense when is this english class so yanno what to all those that dont/cant understand what i said FUCK YOU! Im not gonna waste away 30 fucking minutes spellchecking this shit so that you can read in correct mla format ya dickhead

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by Ryan


sense when is this english class so yanno what to all those that dont/cant understand what i said FUCK YOU! Im not gonna waste away 30 fucking minutes spellchecking this shit so that you can read in correct mla format ya dickhead

30 minutes of spell checking for 4 lines of text!!! Have a good life.

End of subject.

[chuyler1]

I spell check as I type...if something comes out wrong, I hit the delete key and fix it.

At least you aren't typing in ALL CAPS...that's a sure sign of someone who doesn't look at the screen when they type.

I think we should bring the level of this forum past the 3rd grade...anyone hear of proof reading?

[chuyler1]

Originally posted by Ryan


sense when is this english class so yanno what to all those that dont/cant understand what i said FUCK YOU! Im not gonna waste away 30 fucking minutes spellchecking this shit so that you can read in correct mla format ya dickhead

With that grammar he needs 30 minutes.

[Red Baron]

(rofl)