MSP at dealership for service (hesitation/clunk/oil)

[OrangeAppeal]

This morning I dropped my MSP off at the dealership for a scheduled service. I, like most other northern MSP/MP3 owners, are experiencing the clunk. I'm also experiencing strong hesitation in second gear while accelerating (not consistant, but often).

As far as the clunk, they are just replacing the bushings and lubing them (but at least they are aware of it with the MSP now).

The hesitation on the other hand, they aren't sure why it is doing this. It is only in second gear and it feels kind like i'm accelerating while slightly feathering the clutch in and out and the clutch is slipping (but that is not the case...just gives you an idea of what it feels like). Went with the servic tech guy to make sure he is feeling the same thing I am...and he did. They don't know why it is doing this, but they have a call into the Mazda Techs out in CA (not sure why they would know more than the East Coast techs, but whatever), and they said they would be in touch with me soon.

While there, I'm getting my complimentary oil change and they are re-aligning the car (slightly pulls to the left).

Soo, in the meantime they gave me a '03 LS with all the bells and whistles...auto of course. Plus my saleswoman is getting me a hat (woo hoo!).

Anyway, I'll keep everyone updated on my situation in case any of you have the same probs I do.

[Go Mifune]

As far as I can tell every(or damn near) MSP has that hesitation. Around 4K rpms. Mine can be felt anywhere from 3K to 4K isn't always 100% consistant.

Some people claim that K&N air filters help or CAI will help. I think someone put in new cams and said that helped as well.

[OrangeAppeal]

My hesitation is from when I shift to second until about 4 - 4.5k rpms. It's not just at about 4k, it's most of the run through the gear...don't really notice it in any other gear. And it is very noticable

[Go Mifune]

Exactly you shift up into second and the engine hesitates (most noticably between 3-4K) until the ECU drops out at 4.5k RPM I am no expert nor do I claim to know much. But it seems the ECU wasn't programmed well for this boost and the hesitation is a side effect of that.

[Go Mifune]

Anyway best of luck and will look for the updates.

[rodslinger]

I noticed the hesitation too during test drives on two different cars. It was annoying enough to keep me from buying the MSP until Mazda gets it corrected. I'll keep checking this section of the boards hoping a definitive answer is found. Until then, everyone keep griping. If nobody complains, nothing will get done.

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

i don't get any hesitation.

[OrangeAppeal]

Just got off the phone with the service manager.

They replaced my bushings with 156D...same old fix of course.

As far as the hesitation goes, this is what he had to tell me:
Mazda knows of the problem, but as of right now they do not know what is causing it nor do they know how to fix it. They are in contact with Callaway to get input from them on the cause and possibly a fix.

So, basically he told me to deal with it (kindly of course) and he will let me know when they hear of a way to fix it.

[Go Mifune]

Thanks for the info Jesse. If they fix that hesitation, the enjoyment factor would really increase.

The hesitation is kind of a drag.

[Street KingFD]

Originally posted by Go Mifune
But it seems the ECU wasn't programmed well for this boost and the hesitation is a side effect of that.

I 100% agree with you. I too believe it's the ECU causing the quirkiness of the engine below 4500rpms. About the clunk. Yeah we had it bad on our MSP but it slowly went away never to return. 6k+ miles and counting.:cool:

[Newf]

If you car hasn't clunked in a long time....I strongly advise you to get under your car, grab the bar and see if it's moving....and make sure the bushings are still there.

....I'm not kidding. Once the clunk "leaves" my car, it's because the bushings fell off.

If this is not the case, I wonder if you were mistaken the clunk for something else.

The Clunk does not just "go away" it should only get worse until that above happens, no matter what climate your in.

[Street KingFD]

Originally posted by newf
If you car hasn't clunked in a long time....I strongly advise you to get under your car, grab the bar and see if it's moving....and make sure the bushings are still there.

....I'm not kidding. Once the clunk "leaves" my car, it's because the bushings fell off.

If this is not the case, I wonder if you were mistaken the clunk for something else.

The Clunk does not just "go away" it should only get worse until that above happens, no matter what climate your in.



I'll have to check that out about the bushings falling off. Trust me I know the clunking noise, it's horrible. We used to have the clunking noise but it faded away. Every now and then I'll get a little mutter of a clunk but that's rear. Wouldn't the car handle horribly if the bushing fell off and make almost a grinding sound?

[Newf]

nope, won't make a grinding noise at all because the bar won't be touching anything, just kinda floating between the clamps. You might here a small clang, or thump every now and then as the bar hits the bracket with the rubber missing, or as the bar moves and hits where the struts are ( a little bar I don't know what it's called)

Grab the bushings too, make sure their tight. You might be just lucky.......I hope so.

[ForceFed]

Originally posted by newf
If you car hasn't clunked in a long time....I strongly advise you to get under your car, grab the bar and see if it's moving....and make sure the bushings are still there.

....I'm not kidding. Once the clunk "leaves" my car, it's because the bushings fell off.

If this is not the case, I wonder if you were mistaken the clunk for something else.

The Clunk does not just "go away" it should only get worse until that above happens, no matter what climate your in.



Hey i had the same thing happen to me.When i got my MSP from day one ,I had the "CLUNK",but as i got more and more miles on it ,it got quieter and finally went away.I get under my car all the time and the bushings are fine!I have 3800 mi. on my car now and virtually no more clunk!HMMMMM?????

"The CLUNK" is like a bad disease,
Easy to get,and a B*tch to get rid of!

[OrangeAppeal]

I forgot to mention, when I had the MSP at the dealership, I inquired about the decline in pressure while accelerating (boost leak?). The service manager got back on the phone with Mazda and he was told that they didn't know what was causing it, but it was related to the hesitation problem...

Here is my theory...stock BOV (Bypass Valve) is poor quality and it may leak. The leak is creating some sort of abnormality in flow with the MAF sensor and that is creating the hesitation/stumbling? Soo, the people who are not experiencing the hesitation aren't experiencing any boost leak and therefore have a properly functioning BOV (Bypass Valve).

Soo, this problem is a hit or miss kinda thing that starts with the BOV. THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION, I HAVE NO PROOF TO BACK THIS UP

Any opinions?

[boostisgood]

Jesse,

I whole heartedly agree with you. I beleive that the BOV is causing issues with boost leak. My car goes Saturday for bushings, leaking hose, and the hesitation. I will bring these points up with the tech, not the service mgr. I hate dealing with those guys. I wanna talk to the guy who is bustin knuckles on my cars :D

[Go Mifune]

I'd wish could drive an MSP that claimed not to have the hesitation. Just for comparison basis.

I mean some claim not to have the hesitation or that it is cleared up by CAI ect.. That kinda voids the idea of the ECU being at fault and rather some faulty part...like the Bypass Valve?

[oliver2000]

Mine does this as well I think...feels like the engine is gasping for air.....I was going to put a K&N drop in filter after the break in period. Going to have it checked out,,,I notice it most is 2nd gear when I hit 3K rpms....sort of stumbles its way up....at highway speeds I do not notice it thou

[turboge]

The BOV is not the problem. The problem is mostly in the intake, and the ecu tuning. I replaced my BOV with an adjustable one and it ran the same. I installed an MBC on a car with the new Injen intake and there was no boost leak from the BOV.

Most of the stumbling was gone, but still a little bit in certain load conditions.

[OrangeAppeal]

Originally posted by turboge
The BOV is not the problem. The problem is mostly in the intake, and the ecu tuning. I replaced my BOV with an adjustable one and it ran the same. I installed an MBC on a car with the new Injen intake and there was no boost leak from the BOV.

Most of the stumbling was gone, but still a little bit in certain load conditions.

I saw your posts on the richness that the ecu was running, and I'm sure that has some to do with it. What in the intake do you think is the problem? The intake tubing, or the intake manifold, or the injectors? Just trying to get an idea while i'm in my holding pattern with MAZDA to get an answer.
Thanks Braden

EDIT: also, do you in fact notice a boost leak with the stock BOV? Cause I definatly notice a drop in pressure as I accelerate. Stock everything.

[turboge]

The intake so far as I've seen is the piping size and routing. The Injen is large and almost a straight shot to the turbo. The stock has all kinds of rediculous bends and is fairly small and restrictive.

The boost loss is not due to the BOV, it is intercooler efficiency and turbo efficiency. When I hit 10psi it holds till about 5000 and slowly starts to decline to 7-8 at redline. This could also be the factory wastegate being inefficient.

[BremertonMSP]

Originally posted by OrangeAppeal

Here is my theory...stock BOV (Bypass Valve) is poor quality and it may leak. The leak is creating some sort of abnormality in flow with the MAF sensor and that is creating the hesitation/stumbling? Soo, the people who are not experiencing the hesitation aren't experiencing any boost leak and therefore have a properly functioning BOV (Bypass Valve).

Soo, this problem is a hit or miss kinda thing that starts with the BOV. THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION, I HAVE NO PROOF TO BACK THIS UP

Any opinions? [/B]

If that's the case, then the guys running aftermarket BOV's should not have this problem.

IMHO, if I were a Mazda Tech/Engineer, I would look at the MAF, ignition system and timing issues. I don't like the fact they put a cover over the engine, and are using stock coil packs and stock spark plug wires. Heat is not good for iginition parts. I've got a slight stumble/hesitation in gears 2-5, and it's annoying. I need to get my boost and AFR gauges hooked up so I can see what's going on during this situation.

Let's keep the ideas comming guys, it's interesting to see what you guys think of this.

[MSP Pro]

The boost loss is not due to the BOV, it is intercooler efficiency and turbo efficiency. When I hit 10psi it holds till about 5000 and slowly starts to decline to 7-8 at redline. This could also be the factory wastegate being inefficient.

Braden: This sounds like turbo efficiency. 10psi up to 5000 and then slow decline tells me that the turbo ran out of capacity as the revs topped 5000. Takes 20% more air as the revs go up 1000 from 5000 to 6000. Of course, the turbo is supposed to spin faster as more exhaust gases are output at the higher revs.
Hmmm, maybe it's not flowing enough intake air to keep the turbo well supplied? Gee, even with the Injen intake? Anyone do any air pressure measurements at the turbo intake? If the inlet feed pressure dropped off, then we'd know it was the problem.
Anyone know how to do an air consumption calculation for a four cylinder four stroke? Let's see, two cylinders fire every rpm; total displacement is two liters, so that's one liter per rev (assume no boost; I'll add that in later). 5000 rpm is 5000 liters at normal atmospheric pressure. If boost is 7psi, that's actually 7psi over atmospheric, which is about 15psi. So that's another 50% air flow to achieve that. OK, 7500 liters/minute is how many cubic feet per minute? (Conversion factor nerding left out...) 7500 liters/min divided by 28.85 liters/cu ft = 260 cfm.
This actually sounds reasonable! Thinking back on old carbs, a big Holley would flow 750 cfm for a 6 liter engine normally aspirated.
So, 260 cfm through a 3 inch pipe, yeah, you might be starving the turbo for inlet air! Lots would depend on the air flow resistance of the cone filter.
SNAPS AWAKE AGAIN...
Sorry about that. Err, got any dyno charts of 10 psi and the Injen intake?? THAT would be interesting...

[unwrittenLaw]

Just wanted to say this is a great thread and I hope it keeps going...

I have a K&N and I still notice slight hesitation/stumbling in 2nd and 3rd usually between 4-5K rpms...

Hopefully someone will pinpoint the problem..cause the stumbling is kind of annoying...

Anyways, hats off to everyone troubleshooting this...I wish I could help more, but I'm too dumb.

[turboge]

Redmptions MSP holds boost at 10psi to redline. This is with the Injen. The stock intake has an effect as a restriction.

[Street KingFD]

I think someone needs try a GROUNDING KIT on teh MSP and see what it does. Should ground the exhaust to the chassis, engine to the chassis, and the ECU to the chassis. I bet this helps out a lot.

[turboge]

Hook me up and i'll run some wires.

[122 Vega]

"Let's see, two cylinders fire every rpm; total displacement is two liters, so that's one liter per rev (assume no boost; I'll add that in later). 5000 rpm is 5000 liters at normal atmospheric pressure. If boost is 7psi, that's actually 7psi over atmospheric, which is about 15psi. " - MSP Pro

This is considering 100% volumetric efficiency, which no n/a motor has. The best is probably 80%. Obviously the turbo Provides motivation for the air to get into the cylinders, but VE depends on one thing, degree at which the intake valve closes in relation to the piston. This motor with the turbo is still probably 95% at best.

But again, once I was told that I was a nurse, not an engineer, so stop trying to talk like one.

Britt

[boostisgood]

Well guys,

I got my boost and a/f gauge in, and the damn car runs uber rich, even before the ECU goes Open Loop. I also notice that the boost pressure drops off in 4th and 5th gear after about 4.500 rpms. It will hit 7 psi then drop down to 5 psi. (I would also atribute this to the warmer air, and inefficiency of the IC)

just thought I would provide some data from my end. hope it helps, Ill see what I get out of the Mazda tech saturday too.

[MSP Pro]

But again, once I was told that I was a nurse, not an engineer, so stop trying to talk like one.

Hey, Britt, I never said that! I always think that as long as people are curious and want to learn, then let the discussions roll! Are you going to be at PIR for the autox on May 17th? It would be cool to do some lunch afterwards and talk cars. Or Sunday, if that's better for you. Lemme know.

[122 Vega]

I will do some autocross this summer, but I work every weekend until July. Then I am on paternity leave for july and August. I would love to come out and run the MSP, STS I guess. Or I could run PAX. I haven't done any autocrossing since I sold my green Vega with the 400hp Vette motor in it, that was a blast.

The comment was from a Pontiac engineer (retired) in my other car club, I just thought it was funny. Another way for me to say "In my opinion..." He's kind of an ass.

I will have to check out the schedule to plan ahead for some weekend fun, I haven't had this much time off sine the summer of 1990 before I went in the Army. I should have kids more often!

Britt

[03MzdSpdSTP]

I am hoping when i get the MSP the break in period ends before Auto X season starts!