Test drive impressions and questions...

[amiodarone]

Over the last few weeks I have been driving a number of cars I am considering buying. Like most of you, I am interested in a responsive, quick and agile vehicle. I have always owned foreign cars, but based on reading I decided to look at the Focus SVT, Honda Civic Si, and the Mini Cooper S. I assumed that none of my local dealers would have a MSP available for a test drive, but luckily I was wrong.

I actually had driven all the other cars prior to my MSP drive, so I had some basis for comparison. Up until that point, I felt the Honda was nice but not too exciting, the Mini was sweet but $$, and the SVT was really sharp handling with poor interior quality and marignal power.

First off, the saleman who showed me the MSP was so jacked up about the car it was unreal. Luckily, as an Integra Type R dirver, he knew his stuff well. I drove the car in the worst possible weather: freezing rain with light snow on the roads. Nevertheless, here were my impressions:

-clutch was very stiff but responsive
- lots of power that seemed explosive at times. I had multiple episodes of severe wheel hop while trying to step on it in the lower gears
- beautiful steering
- nice brakes
- crazy torque steer- I could not figure out if this was because to the bad weather conditions vs the effect of the limited slip diff. All my current vehicles are rear wheel drive, so I am not accustomed to FWD handling, but this car sure had more torque steer that either the SVT or the Civic Si.
- Clunk! I honestly thought there'd be no way a brand new car with 75 miles would have this noise, but it was there! I had not read this board prior to the test drive, so initially I thought the sound was part of the exhaust system hitting the rear of the car (thats what it sounded like to me), but when I found this board and read all the hoopla about the "clunk" I knew exactly what it was I had heard.
- slight hiccup in light throttle fuel mapping as well as when letting off the throttle which could cause the car to jolt slightly.

Overall I was impressed, but still a little concerned about the clunk noise and the driveability. I have read the MP3 board about people going in for their "weekly rear bushing swaps", and that makes me a little nervous. SO, here are my questions:

1) Anyone else notice the drivability issues?
2) Torque steer and the LSD... connected?
3) Clunk sound solutions- I know that some kind soul has sent his bushings to Racing beat to have them work on a solution.
4) How do you wipe the smiles off your face after driving this thing around???

By the way, the saleman knocked $400 off the price if I bought the car on the spot (I held off)

Glad I found such an informative site!!

-amiodarone

[SomaMP3]

i personally would stay away from it....i traded in my protege 5 for an mp3, and have had nothing but problems with the bushings of the rear sway bay....you don't want to put yourself through that hassle.....i'd hold off until a permanent fix turns up for our bushings....but thats just my opinion. Sometimes i wished that i stayed with the protege 5.:)

[AGR]

Hi! I have had my MAZDASPEED for about a month now, and it's an incredible car in my opinion. I also looked at other cars prior to buying the Mazda. You will read this alot on hear; "It's a complete package". It may not be the fastest, or the quickest..... but as a whole, it's the most complete. And, it does everything well.

The car has wonderful handling, excellent power, and without question - the best sound system of the bunch you mentioned. I would never base my buying choice on a stereo that comes with a car, but there's a good argument with the Kenwood System in the MAZDASPEED. It has to be one of the finest 'stock' systems in any new car.

The torque steer with this car is normal, and well documented. As far as the clunking in the rear, I haven't really noticed it much, but I had a similar sound in the rear of my '99 Nissan SE Limited, so I'm not real concerned.

The smile? I call it a big Grin!! Driving the MAZDASPEED is a complete joy. I just installed a Passport 8500 Radar Receiver.

I am very happy with my choice! Hope this helps!

[slug420]

only got mine on friday, but the grin still isnt gone. I love it. No clunk in mine yet I dont think and its at 450 miles

[Swerny]

I've had mine 2 weeks and love it so far. The car pulls like mad in pretty much each gear.
I took my test drive with 4 people in the car and the first thing i noticed was the torque steer! My buddy who was shotgun has a Jetta VR6 and he recognized it right away! I knew what it was but it was interesting to say the least.
As for the clunk, mine does it too. I thought it was the weather (cold) since i've had the car, but it's been warmer as of late and its still doing it.
I'm waiting for a final answer on here with regards to the source of the noise before i bring her in for service. I'd rather know what it is rather than taking shots in the dark.
I'm wth you though, any new car shouldn't clunk, let alone one that costs as much as this one.

Mike - MS MSP - Spicy Orange

[Newf]

Listen, no one has had more troubles with the clunk than i. But I would never say I'd rather a P5 over a MP3... NEVER.

two completely different cars in stock form.

I didn't find the torque steer that bad at all really. Then again, I'm used to driving high end front wheel drives.


Funny enough, the only speed here in town is pushing 1500kms now, and NO noise in the rear at all. I drove it again the other day over some rough roads too. Wonderful car.



The other cars you mention may technically be in the same class, but honestly, I don't think they are. Minus the Mini, as I've never driven one so I can't say

[AutoXer]

I have yet to drive an MSP, but I have driven the Mini Cooper S. It's an excellent car, handles great, and has decent pickup. The interior quality is very nice, and the shifter works like a dream.

Unfortunately, it's $32,000 CDN delivered, no options.

It's funny, in the U.S the range of S/C pricing is like $17,500 (spec-V) to $20,500 (MSP), whereas in Canada it's $21,000 (spec-V) to $31,000 (Cooper S and SVT Focus).

$3K vs. $10K...nice to be an American.

[Grimace]

Originally posted by amiodarone


1) Anyone else notice the drivability issues?
2) Torque steer and the LSD... connected?
3) Clunk sound solutions- I know that some kind soul has sent his bushings to Racing beat to have them work on a solution.
4) How do you wipe the smiles off your face after driving this thing around???


1) I test drove a MSP for ~30 minutes, mostly at light-medium throttle, but I didn't notice this issue. Other members on this board have, however.
2) Yes, for the most part. All FWD cars have some degree of torque steer; adding a LSD exasperates it under anything but very light acceleration. For example, the Nissan Sentra SE-R has a lot less torque steer than its sibling with an LSD, the SE-R Spec V. I would still gladly live with the added torque steer an LSD brings though, especially in the winter when it can help drag your car out of the snow.
3) Lots of temporary solutions, nothing permanent yet. I think we'll have to design our own rear sway bad and links...
4) Took me a good 24 hours. :) Try stubbing your toe to get rid of the smile sooner.

[Grimace]

Originally posted by AutoXer
I have yet to drive an MSP, but I have driven the Mini Cooper S. It's an excellent car, handles great, and has decent pickup. The interior quality is very nice, and the shifter works like a dream.

Unfortunately, it's $32,000 CDN delivered, no options.

It's funny, in the U.S the range of S/C pricing is like $17,500 (spec-V) to $20,500 (MSP), whereas in Canada it's $21,000 (spec-V) to $31,000 (Cooper S and SVT Focus).

$3K vs. $10K...nice to be an American.

Yeah, but our Spec V is only $22k. Nice to be a Canadian. (And in the area of hot hatches, the Civic SiR and Focus SVT are both being discounted, heavily in the case of the Honda).

[buster]

If you walk into a Honda dealer today I have heard of the 02 SIR's being dropped as low as $22800 Can which is pretty much cost. They are also offering realistic financing of below 5%. I would bet that a 03 could be had for under $25k pretty easily. Also, the SVT has gone from pretty much $30k Can to $27400.
The Spec is $24200 Can loaded but they won't budge too much from that as they are telling people that it is a limited production car. The SRT by all the info I have so far will be $27k Can as well. The Cooper S is coming down a little but still over $30k. In the UK a Cooper S is the same price as a SIR (SI)!!

[buster]

Silly thoughts, if you got a SIR for 22,800 then bought a nice wheel and tire package $1300, Eibach springs $450, Intake $350, Exhaust $700, the car would really come alive in handling and power. I would suspect that 175hp would be relaistic and after riding in a stock SIR and one with Eibach's.....WOW, big difference. Honda should offer a sleeper factory package for a decent price, I think it would really help the car after people test drove it.

[MSP Pro]

Honda SI: Read Grassroots Motorsports magazine. They've done everything, including custom designed coilovers, to get that pig to handle and they've given up. Not enough suspension travel in the rear. Also, the least amount of power in the sport compact class.

Mini Cooper S: Too slow; classed as D Stock in SCCA autox and dropped to G Stock in less than a year because it was toast up against the Nissan Spec V, WRX, & BMW 330. 0-60 in about 8 seconds. Back seat is not useable.

Focus SVT: Nice, but an open diff. And 11 recalls in its first year. A little too tall and too much body roll compared to the real handlers.

Nissan SE-R Spec V: Nice car, big engine, good torque down low, helical LSD. BUT: beam rear axle, 99 inch wheelbase = small back seat, runs out of revs at 6K.

VW GTI 1.8T: Nice engine. Sloppy suspension. 3000 lbs. Not a handler.

Hyundai Tiburon: 170 hp from a V6. Over 3100 lbs. Not a handler. Slow in a straight line.

Mazdaspeed Protege: THE most incredible handling sport compact on the market. Sport Compact Car says it knocks the Integra Type R off the top of the mountain, and I agree. I have 1100 miles on my black one and I haven't found the handling limits yet! 2800 lbs. 102.8 in wheelbase = decent sized back seat (useful on long trips). Pretty good straight line performance: 0-60 in about 7 sec. Good brakes. Great looking wheels, but a little heavy at 21 - 22 lbs each.

As for the clunk, I think this can be easily solved with a set of polyurethane aftermarket bushings. This is what Racing Beat specified for the car; Mazda put in rubber. Maybe $40. But I don't have the clunk yet. Maybe Mazda will figure it out and give me a real fix for free. Oh yeah: 50k mile 4 year bumper to bumper warranty.

I researched sport compact cars for 3 years. I'm glad I waited for the MSP. I love mine and can't wait for autox season to start!

Finally, my old car was a 91 300zx twin turbo. MUCH faster in a straight line, but my MSP outhandles it in the curves! Great car.

[AutoXer]

Originally posted by MSP Pro

Mini Cooper S: Too slow; classed as D Stock in SCCA autox and dropped to G Stock in less than a year because it was toast up against the Nissan Spec V, WRX, & BMW 330. 0-60 in about 8 seconds. Back seat is not useable.


0-60 is more like 7.5 seconds, and the back seat is definitely usable. I should know, I sat in it behind my Dad in the passenger seat, and we're both about 6' tall. It's hard to get into the back seat, but once there it's surprisingly comfortable.

I would buy a Cooper S, if it were closer to the MSP's price. Thing is, I don't really need/want a sedan, but since no one is making a great, affordable coupe...

[AutoXer]

Originally posted by Grimace


Yeah, but our Spec V is only $22k. Nice to be a Canadian. (And in the area of hot hatches, the Civic SiR and Focus SVT are both being discounted, heavily in the case of the Honda).
AFAIK, Americans earn salaries similar to Canadians, except in U.S. Dollars.

If I were an American, I could buy a Spec-V for a little more than $17K and then buy coilovers, I/H/E, and lightweight rims w/R-compounds, and it would come to about $22K. Nice to be American? Definitely.

[scapamouche]

Originally posted by Grimace


1) I test drove a MSP for ~30 minutes, mostly at light-medium throttle, but I didn't notice this issue. Other members on this board have, however.
2) Yes, for the most part. All FWD cars have some degree of torque steer; adding a LSD exasperates it under anything but very light acceleration. For example, the Nissan Sentra SE-R has a lot less torque steer than its sibling with an LSD, the SE-R Spec V. I would still gladly live with the added torque steer an LSD brings though, especially in the winter when it can help drag your car out of the snow.
3) Lots of temporary solutions, nothing permanent yet. I think we'll have to design our own rear sway bad and links...
4) Took me a good 24 hours. :) Try stubbing your toe to get rid of the smile sooner.

Minor note, but BOTH the SE-R and XSpec-V have LSDs, but the Spec-V has a more capable helical type unit, while the standard SE-R has a different LSD (it's not a goo-box, but I can't remember what the exact unit is....)

[slug420]

if i were an american i would buy an orange msp........




















......wait a sec....:)

[buster]

Originally posted by MSP Pro
Honda SI: Read Grassroots Motorsports magazine. They've done everything, including custom designed coilovers, to get that pig to handle and they've given up. Not enough suspension travel in the rear. Also, the least amount of power in the sport compact class.

Mini Cooper S: Too slow; classed as D Stock in SCCA autox and dropped to G Stock in less than a year because it was toast up against the Nissan Spec V, WRX, & BMW 330. 0-60 in about 8 seconds. Back seat is not useable.

Focus SVT: Nice, but an open diff. And 11 recalls in its first year. A little too tall and too much body roll compared to the real handlers.

Nissan SE-R Spec V: Nice car, big engine, good torque down low, helical LSD. BUT: beam rear axle, 99 inch wheelbase = small back seat, runs out of revs at 6K.

VW GTI 1.8T: Nice engine. Sloppy suspension. 3000 lbs. Not a handler.

Hyundai Tiburon: 170 hp from a V6. Over 3100 lbs. Not a handler. Slow in a straight line.

Mazdaspeed Protege: THE most incredible handling sport compact on the market. Sport Compact Car says it knocks the Integra Type R off the top of the mountain, and I agree. I have 1100 miles on my black one and I haven't found the handling limits yet! 2800 lbs. 102.8 in wheelbase = decent sized back seat (useful on long trips). Pretty good straight line performance: 0-60 in about 7 sec. Good brakes. Great looking wheels, but a little heavy at 21 - 22 lbs each.

As for the clunk, I think this can be easily solved with a set of polyurethane aftermarket bushings. This is what Racing Beat specified for the car; Mazda put in rubber. Maybe $40. But I don't have the clunk yet. Maybe Mazda will figure it out and give me a real fix for free. Oh yeah: 50k mile 4 year bumper to bumper warranty.

I researched sport compact cars for 3 years. I'm glad I waited for the MSP. I love mine and can't wait for autox season to start!

Finally, my old car was a 91 300zx twin turbo. MUCH faster in a straight line, but my MSP outhandles it in the curves! Great car.

That beam rear axle is not as bad as most think. The design is actually pretty clever and is used throughout Nissan's lineup. Maxima, Altima use it and I thought the G35 uses it....hmmm I will have to look that one up.

[AltimaSE]

Man all of the discussion of the Spec-V and the MSP must mean that their pretty evenly matched cars huh? :) (Like I didn't know what already)

A piece of information that I can add to the mix is that the regular SE-R (not Spec) has no LSD. Whereas the Spec has the nice HLSD (Helical LSD). However, the 2001 SE model with the performance package option did come with a VLSD (Viscous Limited Slip Diff). Just one of the little tidbits that I've picked up in my never ending quest of deciding which car to buy. :)

At least on the G35 Sedan here's the suspension as listed on their website:

Front: Independent, forged-aluminum multi-link with coil springs over ripple-control shock absorbers, stabilizer bar.
Rear: Independent, forged-aluminum multi-link with coil springs, outboard ripple-control shock absorbers, stabilizer bar.

However, I'm not sure about the Coupe. :|

[AltimaSE]

One more thing... just looked at my 02 Altima liturature and the Altima suspension is listed as:

Front: Independent subrame-mounted strut type
Rear: Multi-link independent

[AGR]

You said it Buster! The MAZDASPEED is awesome, and I have said it many, many times. To me it was worth the extra money over the Nissan Spec V SE-R that a year ago, I was sure would be my next purchase. I am so glad I waited.

Again; just personal preference. I know the Nissan quality having owned 3. The MAZDASPEED just does everything right.....But; I have given my views on this on other related threads.

[buster]

It wasn't my comments, I quoted someone else...:D

My mistake, the Altima and G35's are independent. Only the Maxima and Sentra have the multi-link beam.
So what exactly are dealers telling you guys about:
1) The clunking in the MSP and MP3
2) The availability of the 03.5's (Canada)

I really have three new cars that I am interestd in: The SRT4, MSP and the Spec-V, in that order. I would still consider a SIR, even though it may not be the top handler out of these three. I would still consider the SVT 3 or 5 door if I knew the quality was getting a little better.

[AGR]

Originally posted by buster
It wasn't my comments, I quoted someone else...:D

My mistake, the Altima and G35's are independent. Only the Maxima and Sentra have the multi-link beam.
So what exactly are dealers telling you guys about:
1) The clunking in the MSP and MP3
2) The availability of the 03.5's (Canada)

I really have three new cars that I am interestd in: The SRT4, MSP and the Spec-V, in that order. I would still consider a SIR, even though it may not be the top handler out of these three. I would still consider the SVT 3 or 5 door if I knew the quality was getting a little better.

MAZDASPEED

[OrangeAppeal]

Originally posted by buster
So what exactly are dealers telling you guys about:
1) The clunking in the MSP and MP3
2) The availability of the 03.5's (Canada)


I asked my dealer about the clunking in the MP3, and they knew about it, and the head service guy said that he fixed it by replacing the bushings (we know where that gets newf), and he said that a different company makes the bushings on the MSP and we'll have to see where that leads. I told him that some people are experiencing the clunk with the MSP, and he said that he'll take care of it if it shows up.

As for the availability of the 03.5's, well, i'm in USA and they knew less than I did about them.

[gb5mx]

I drove an SVT Focus and was pretty impressed with it. The ride was smooth and quiet and the exhaust note (stock) must have barely passed the EPA inspectors and Ford beancounters. It sounded good.

My test drive was with a dealer and the route included no curvy roads, but the car did feel pretty tall and tippy, but it could have simply taken some getting used to after driving there in my Protege5.

Were the "11 recalls" specific to the SVT Focus or are you counting all of the recalls that they had on the regular Foci a couple of years ago? Haven't these initial problems been taken care of by now?

I was shocked to read that the junk Chevy Cavalier outold all Ford Focus (foci?) sold in the U.S. last year. That's pathetic... even a regular Focus is much superior to the Chevy (when did they last redesign that car... 1982?). Then again, with some hefty rebates and dealers willing to make some deals, an SVT could be the performance bargain of the decade.

[AGR]

Originally posted by gb5mx
I drove an SVT Focus and was pretty impressed with it. The ride was smooth and quiet and the exhaust note (stock) must have barely passed the EPA inspectors and Ford beancounters. It sounded good.

My test drive was with a dealer and the route included no curvy roads, but the car did feel pretty tall and tippy, but it could have simply taken some getting used to after driving there in my Protege5.

Were the "11 recalls" specific to the SVT Focus or are you counting all of the recalls that they had on the regular Foci a couple of years ago? Haven't these initial problems been taken care of by now?

I was shocked to read that the junk Chevy Cavalier outold all Ford Focus (foci?) sold in the U.S. last year. That's pathetic... even a regular Focus is much superior to the Chevy (when did they last redesign that car... 1982?). Then again, with some hefty rebates and dealers willing to make some deals, an SVT could be the performance bargain of the decade.

Impressive is the MAZDASPEED. Pay a little more and get the MAZDASPEED.

[MSP Pro]

Hey Greg:

If he wants a Ford SVT Focus, let him get one. He will soon find out what an open diff does when accelerating out of corners. It will definitely be cheaper to buy than our MSPs. My dealer is now marking them up $5k...ridiculous.

GB5MX: I don't know what the 11 recalls were about, just read it in Autoweek. I do know that Ford extended the warranty on the Focus to 4 years for 2003 models. It's your money, it's your choice.

[Grimace]

Most of those recalls were for the first model year cars. My friend has a ZX3, and the only things that have gone wrong on his car is condensation in a headlamp housing and a slightly noisy throwout bearing. He's at 80,000 kms and drives it pretty hard.

[gb5mx]

I like the MSP... don't get me wrong. I was just commenting that the SVT Focus is a much higher volume production car and thus, is subject to the normal market discounts and rebates as regular Foci, which apparently are tanking on the market. The MSP and SVT provide an interesting comparison because the horsepower figures are the same (170 hp) and their MSRPs are fairly close. If one loads up the SVT with a good stereo, though still not as good as the MSP unit, list prices are fairly close.

That said, the Mazdaspeed Protege is a much more highly tuned vehicle, looks great, handles amazingly well and will likely always be a much more desireable vehicle that you won't see parked next to you at the shopping mall (or Hertz rental car lot!).

This is definitely an amazing time to be a car shopper. Products on the market are nearly all better than ever from a reliability, quality and value standpoint. Performance cars are now available at nearly every price point and even "standard" cars like a Protege ES will out acclerate and outhandle even dedicated sports cars from 10-15 year ago, provide great fuel economy and meet ever more stringent pollution standards. It's a great time to be a car enthusiast!