Dealer Denying Smoking Turbo Repair

[corollachic83]

Hi I have a 2008 ms3 with cobb catted dp and forge bypass valve. started smoking back in NOV. I Took it to mazda w/mods, it sat for over a week and then the mazda rep declined the repair and then branded my vehicle and voided all future warrenty repairs.. this is against the law!!! The parts did not cause the seals to leak. I filed complaints with the BBB and the FTC. Has the delear done this to anyone else denying the repair?

[abovie3]

they'll find any and all reason to void your warranty. The downpipe is most likely caused the smoke to be visible now because the extra oil isnt being burned at both cat locations. theres countless threads on similar stories that mazda voided warranties due to aftermarket parts..and in every one of those threads people are warned to not bring their cars into the dealership with mods. simple as some dealers are cool with it, some aren't. Get the PTP fix for $25 and your set.

[5port]

Its unfortunate but your not going to be able to change what just happened with the dealer. Its too late. You still have options thought with regard to the smoking turbo though before you replace it.. The oil flow restricter is one (abovie3). Try a 5W-40 synth oil ( I use Shell Rotella T). Change the turbo inlet to a smooth flow one (RPMC, CPE etc).

Edit after S-retires post: Best thing to do is ALWAYS take your car in stock when requesting a warranty repair and make sure your oil drain plug is on tight.

[s-retire]

the mazda rep declined the repair and then branded my vehicle and voided all future warrenty repairs..

Does this mean if the radio stops working tomorrow you're shit out of luck? How can that be?


this is against the law!!!

Right now Mazda NAO thinks they have you by the balls because it is illegal to tamper with the smog reduction equipment. Can you put the car back to stock and demand they prove that the prior mods caused the smoking turbo? I'm not suggesting you deny you modified the car, but rather you've corrected your actions and now want them to honor the warranty that came with the car.


Has the dealer done this to anyone else denying the repair?

So many times. Just look on the boards.


The parts did not cause the seals to leak. I filed complaints with the BBB and the FTC.

Good for you. If everyone followed through as you have we'd establish a pattern of behavior by Mazda NAO and Mazda would see that it was more cost effective to be reasonable. Right now 9 out of 10 just stick their tail between their legs and let Mazda have their way with them so Mazda NAO has a financial incentive to act this way.

[corollachic83]

Thanks...I also have talked with a lawyer who specializes in consumer affairs. If I can get some more mazda owners to come forward, who were also denied repairs, We could file a class action suit at no cost to us. But mostly likely I am just wishful thinking. The BBB is there to resolve disputes between dealerships and consumers. Ill let you guys know the outcome. Many dealerships just assume that we don't know our rights. Until then I did order the PCV fix from PT-performance. I read about it but I am still skepical. Hopefully it will work until I can obtain a permenant fix. Does anyone know if that little 25 dollar part really resolves the issue. AND they "branded my VIN" so all "powertrain" warrenty is voided what BS!!!! Plus my DP is catted. Just brought out an existing problem.

[corollachic83]

Oil changes were just a band-aid, 5-40 helped for 3 days! Im so dissapointed in this company. Not only that, but we have a 2008 cx-7 in the family can't wait to see what happen with that.

[BrianFiebig]

Betcha it was the BPV. Just had my car in the shop for its second replacement PCV valve, and the tech (old guy who rolled up in a SWEET RX-7) said that if the turbo smoked, put the stock BPV back in.
And no, if you are still in your 3/36K, if the radio quits, they have to fix it. Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975, 15 USC 2301 covers situations like that. TEHCNICALLY they cant void ANY part of the warrentee for aftermarket stuff UNLESS the aftermarket part can be conclusively proven to have cause the failure in question. Its why they cant void your warrentee if you put in an aftermarket panel filter or something like that. I used to sell cars, its been a few years, but that much I THINK i remember correctly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act and http://www.autosafety.org/the-magnuson-moss-warranty-act%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%80%9C-an-overview are good research starting points.

[Saskatchewan17]

http://www.pt-performance.com/showProduct.php?vID=4&cID=4&pID=260

[bigdaddy]

yes, I am stupid, but where does this PT Perf. PCV fix even go on the car?

[Saskatchewan17]

Through the PCV line on your intake that goes into the valve cover. On the valve cover end. You know, the one with the elbow bends and blue and green(I think?) clip?

[bigdaddy]

oh yeah, i know where that is

[meicalnissyen]

Oil changes were just a band-aid, 5-40 helped for 3 days! Im so dissapointed in this company. Not only that, but we have a 2008 cx-7 in the family can't wait to see what happen with that.
Sell it??

[coololddude]

If you give a dealer a reason to void a warranty, they probably will.

[camrycev6]

The unfortunate dangers of modding. I did it with one car... Never again... or at least not until the warranty expires. In this particular case, I feel your pain, but the dealer has a point. Of course, they can't just void the warranty on your entire car. If your power windows stop working they have to fix them. As far as the drivetrain / engine, for the most part they have a plausible reason to deny your coverage. I know that sucks... but again, they have a valid case.

[socks]

My car smoked stock. It was a very light smoke, so the dealer could never replicate.

I installed a downpipe, and boom, there was the smokescreen. Idle for long and lots of smoke.

They refused to repair it, even though i had been twice to complain about smoke prior to the install.

My powertrain warranty was branded as well. not that that matters now :-P

[corollachic83]

My car smoked stock. It was a very light smoke, so the dealer could never replicate.

I installed a downpipe, and boom, there was the smokescreen. Idle for long and lots of smoke.

They refused to repair it, even though i had been twice to complain about smoke prior to the install.

My powertrain warranty was branded as well. not that that matters now :-P

After that did you mod the hell out of it? At this point im like screw it, the car is already branded, mine as well go all out right?

[socks]

Indeed.

It was either get a c5 zo6, or replace the turbo myself.

I replaced the turbo with a 3071. then i wanted to build the motor, so i did.

then with the built motor i sprayed it with nitrous. ran out of fuel. added dual walbros.

sold the nitrous for other things.

[corollachic83]

I filed a report with the better buisness here is Mazda'
s Official First Response:

Company's Initial Response - Posted 12/09/2009
To Whom It May Concern: This letter is in response to your request regarding the claim made by K***** *****, complaint ID 98******. Upon review, it has been determined by our district service representative that Ms. ****** vehicle has many aftermarket modifications. These modifications include an aftermarket blow off valve, cold air intake, modified exhaust system (down pipe welded in) and a missing/modified catalytic converter. Due to these modifications Mazda has branded the powertrain warranty for this particular vehicle. As such the turbo will not be repaired under warranty. We appreciate you allowing Mazda an opportunity to clarify our point of view on the situation. If you have any further questions please contact me at 800-222-5500 ext. 1157. Regards, Paul Steinbruner Specialist, Customer Assistance Mazda North American Operations File: 127*******
Initial Response Summary
Aftermarket modifications on vehicle - no powertrain warranty.

Hilarious!! The Cold-Air intake is a Mazda-Speed (green light warrenty) product. I have a Full recirculation Valve (not a BOV) and the down-pipe is catted Cobb application that is bolt on not welded. Who welds on their on exhaust componets? Sounds like their district service representive is a retard!!! Of course I get to give a rebuttle and now it goes to littigation. Im willing to return the Car back to stock.

Has anyone had the Smoking Issue with the downpipe then returned it back to stock and it stopped?

Second Update: I have had the PT-Performace fix installed for about a month now. Although I have to admit it has significantly reduced the smoking under normal driving conditions. But it still smokes after a little bit of load and then iddle like at a traffic light after a freeway-drive. havn't had any luck with completely solving the problem. Any ideas why? Any one in the same situation?

[corollachic83]

You should file a complaint as wellthere is no charge and it will take 5 min out of your day. If the BBB sees multiple issues they can see a pattern with this company.

Check out this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTtuHLcZDE
Don't you guys know that panda stickers void your warrenty lmao

Link to the BBB: https://www.auto.bbb.org/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=autoline/autoline/first.w

[camrycev6]

Just my opinion, but it clearly sounds that Mazda was justified in denying your claim. Good luck with the BBB on this one... I think the odds are certainly against you.

[eg6motion]

I filed a report with the better buisness here is Mazda'
s Official First Response:

Company's Initial Response - Posted 12/09/2009
To Whom It May Concern: This letter is in response to your request regarding the claim made by K***** *****, complaint ID 98******. Upon review, it has been determined by our district service representative that Ms. ****** vehicle has many aftermarket modifications. These modifications include an aftermarket blow off valve, cold air intake, modified exhaust system (down pipe welded in) and a missing/modified catalytic converter. Due to these modifications Mazda has branded the powertrain warranty for this particular vehicle. As such the turbo will not be repaired under warranty. We appreciate you allowing Mazda an opportunity to clarify our point of view on the situation. If you have any further questions please contact me at 800-222-5500 ext. 1157. Regards, Paul Steinbruner Specialist, Customer Assistance Mazda North American Operations File: 127*******
Initial Response Summary
Aftermarket modifications on vehicle - no powertrain warranty.

Hilarious!! The Cold-Air intake is a Mazda-Speed (green light warrenty) product. I have a Full recirculation Valve (not a BOV) and the down-pipe is catted Cobb application that is bolt on not welded. Who welds on their on exhaust componets? Sounds like their district service representive is a retard!!! Of course I get to give a rebuttle and now it goes to littigation. Im willing to return the Car back to stock.

Has anyone had the Smoking Issue with the downpipe then returned it back to stock and it stopped?

Second Update: I have had the PT-Performace fix installed for about a month now. Although I have to admit it has significantly reduced the smoking under normal driving conditions. But it still smokes after a little bit of load and then iddle like at a traffic light after a freeway-drive. havn't had any luck with completely solving the problem. Any ideas why? Any one in the same situation?


Seriously, SEARCH. Even Google...the MS3 is FAMOUS for smoking turbo's when you have a DP. As for your warranty, return to stock and continue your litigation, gonna cost you more than fixing it yourself, but go for it. You have mods so you are SOL, however it is illegal for them to flag your entire warranty, they can only decline to fix the turbo or replace the turbo, which is smoking because your DP btw...but it's not caused by the DP, if that makes sense. The stock DP provides more pressure for the seal to counter the pressure from the oil-side, when you remove this pressure, or reduce it, the oil blows past the seals. The true problem is too much pressure on the oil-side, but your DP creates the symptom of smoking...crappy situation.

[LovinMyMS3]

Just my opinion, but it clearly sounds that Mazda was justified in denying your claim. Good luck with the BBB on this one... I think the odds are certainly against you.

You seem to side with dealerships a lot, twice in this thread alone.

[camrycev6]

You seem to side with dealerships a lot, twice in this thread alone.

It has nothing to do with dealerships at all... I just find it strange that people mod the hell out of their cars, then cry and whine when the dealers refuse to repair them. That said, if this guy had a broken radio, a blown power window motor, etc., I would be the first guy to say that is BS and that he/she should fight it to the nth degree. That is not the case here. I have modded cars in the past. One was particularly problematic. When Infiniti refused to work on it, I understood. It was my choice to mod the car and therefore my responsibility if something went wrong.

I side with the person / persons who seem to be correct. I don't care if it is the dealer or the buyer.....

....or wait... Maybe I work for a dealership. Yeah... that must be it.

[8.5MS3]

"Aftermarket modifications on vehicle - no powertrain warranty."


i have aftermarket oil, gasoline, windshield washer fluid, and tires in/on my car....should I be worried.

yes the dp can be correlated to the smoking turbo, sorry but they have a leg to stand on. Now if they said your swaybars, or boost gauge caused it. then you have a case. I shit you not those are actual arguements from a local dealership

[coyfish]

It has nothing to do with dealerships at all... I just find it strange that people mod the hell out of their cars, then cry and whine when the dealers refuse to repair them. That said, if this guy had a broken radio, a blown power window motor, etc., I would be the first guy to say that is BS and that he/she should fight it to the nth degree. That is not the case here. I have modded cars in the past. One was particularly problematic. When Infiniti refused to work on it, I understood. It was my choice to mod the car and therefore my responsibility if something went wrong.

I side with the person / persons who seem to be correct. I don't care if it is the dealer or the buyer.....

....or wait... Maybe I work for a dealership. Yeah... that must be it.


He had a downpipe and a bpv. I wouldn't consider that "modded the hell out of . . ."

Frankly it doesn't even matter. The point is you shouldn't lose your warranty unless the part caused the problem. Just as the MM states. This was a tight situation though. The DP / smoke go hand in hand. Let this be a lesson to avoid dealerships when modded !

[camrycev6]

"Aftermarket modifications on vehicle - no powertrain warranty."


i have aftermarket oil, gasoline, windshield washer fluid, and tires in/on my car....should I be worried

Ha... too funny... Clearly you should not be. Seriously though, I am still shocked at the lack of responsibility I have seen with people who mod cars. (And let me say that applies to many others besides Mazda owners.) To those of you who mod taking ownership of any problems -- I say Bravo. To the others I simply say, if you aren't prepared to take the risks --- Don't do it. Otherwise, don't complain if you get burnt.

[corollachic83]

Has anyone tried to have a company rebuild the turbo using beefer seals? A less expensive possibilty? I know of a couple of company's in the area that have a good reputation on rebuilds.

[8.5MS3]

Has anyone tried to have a company rebuild the turbo using beefer seals? A less expensive possibilty? I know of a couple of company's in the area that have a good reputation on rebuilds.

bnr is doing something i know that

[LovinMyMS3]

That is not the case here.

How is it not? In what way has the dealership proven that it caused the problem? People who say "If you mod it you shouldn't have a warranty" are the problem.

[nhluhr]

How is it not? In what way has the dealership proven that it caused the problem? People who say "If you mod it you shouldn't have a warranty" are the problem.The dealership itself didn't have to prove it. The Mazdaspeed community proved it for them when PTP released their "engineering analysis" of their smoking turbo fix. It clearly states that the reduced backpressure from a downpipe directly causes oil blow-by.

[8.5MS3]

The dealership itself didn't have to prove it. The Mazdaspeed community proved it for them when PTP released their "engineering analysis" of their smoking turbo fix. It clearly states that the reduced backpressure from a downpipe directly causes oil blow-by.

uhh PTP's bandaid doesnt cure all, and the dealership doesnt have to prove it, Mazda does. And you have to provide facts from a reputable lab or testing facility, not some small time vendor

[nhluhr]

uhh PTP's bandaid doesnt cure all, and the dealership doesnt have to prove it, Mazda does. And you have to provide facts from a reputable lab or testing facility, not some small time vendorNo, it doesn't cure all... my tailpipe has started smoking at idle (mostly when facing downhill(nervous)) and I am 100% stock... which is why I'm reading threads on oil smoke today.

However, in the case of the original poster's car... she modified it before showing any signs of smoking with a modification known to cause smoking.

Many of you in this thread have very idealized opinions of the Magnusson Moss Act. Sure, they are supposed to do all this testing and show proof but really, there is no way to enforce it. You can't call the police to come enforce it. If she were to take this to court, she'd lose, because again, her modifications caused it. You can say all day that I have no proof but you know damn well that her modifications caused it and if it came down to research and a civil suit jury, she's gonna lose because MazdaUSA has far more technical resources to prove it than she has to disprove it.

[8.5MS3]

No, it doesn't cure all... my tailpipe has started smoking at idle (mostly when facing downhill(nervous)) and I am 100% stock... which is why I'm reading threads on oil smoke today.

However, in the case of the original poster's car... she modified it before showing any signs of smoking with a modification known to cause smoking.

Many of you in this thread have very idealized opinions of the Magnusson Moss Act. Sure, they are supposed to do all this testing and show proof but really, there is no way to enforce it. You can't call the police to come enforce it. If she were to take this to court, she'd lose, because again, her modifications caused it. You can say all day that I have no proof but you know damn well that her modifications caused it and if it came down to research and a civil suit jury, she's gonna lose because MazdaUSA has far more technical resources to prove it than she has to disprove it.

then why has mazda started putting 5w40 in all the smoking turbo cars? i was at my dealership last week, and the service rep was seeing 1-4 cx7s PER DAY with smoking turbos, theyre not modded.....the dealers have to prove it beyond doubt, "because I said so" doesnt work in the legal system.

FYI:

Hello all.

There is a big problem with the turbochargers on the MS3/6/cx7. I have taken apart a bunch of them and this is what I find...

The turbo is a KKK K04. The smoking problem is b/c of a combination of several things.


weak crank case ventilation
too much oil pressure
not enough backpressure to equilize crank case pressure
improper tolerances in turbocahrger


We all know mazdas fixes. CCV update, synthetic oil change, oil restriction, and also their turbo replacement. All of which is not going to solve their issues 100%.

I take apart these turbochargers and I see something right off the bat that is waaaay out of wack. The compressor seal is nearly .012"! This tolerance is supposed to be .0025-.003".

What is happening is the boost from the compressor housing is blowing into the bearing housing through that gap and causing the oil to not flow properly to the oil pan. The oil backs up and the level rises in the bearing housing of the turbocharger until it leaks through the turbine seal which is on the exhaust side that has a gap of .010". When it seaps through that gap, it enters the exhaust system causing your smoking...

I have a fix for the issue and it requires a build up of the turbocharger. It has a total seal on the compressor side so no boost enters the crank case! Not to mension a reliability increase and performance increase.

Bryan@BNR

[nhluhr]

then why has mazda started putting 5w40 in all the smoking turbo cars? i was at my dealership last week, and the service rep was seeing 1-4 cx7s PER DAY with smoking turbos, theyre not modded.....the dealers have to prove it beyond doubt, "because I said so" doesnt work in the legal systemYou keep talking about the legal system as if it even matters. 99.9% of the time, a person will NOT take it to court because they have doubts about their ability to win or because the cost of litigation is prohibitive.

[8.5MS3]

You keep talking about the legal system as if it even matters. 99.9% of the time, a person will NOT take it to court because they have doubts about their ability to win or because the cost of litigation is prohibitive.

yes because your the one talking about bending over and letting the dealers (upbum). your making statements about something with 0 proof, just going by earsay. Mazda is obviously aware that there is in fact a problem, but are doing whatever they can to reduce the number of cars effected, including voiding warranties for no reason.

Now, the OP was wrong in taking the car to the dealer modded. I was threatened with a voided warranty for my dashawk. A discussion that will remain private ensued and i still have it, but i went there with my intake and tune removed. Others have had similar cases for boost gauges, shifter weights etc. You need to push back and not let the dealer roll over you (staying civil obviously).

[nhluhr]

yes because your the one talking about bending over and letting the dealers (upbum). your making statements about something with 0 proof, just going by earsay. Mazda is obviously aware that there is in fact a problem, but are doing whatever they can to reduce the number of cars effected, including voiding warranties for no reason.

Now, the OP was wrong in taking the car to the dealer modded. I was threatened with a voided warranty for my dashawk. A discussion that will remain private ensued and i still have it, but i went there with my intake and tune removed. Others have had similar cases for boost gauges, shifter weights etc. You need to push back and not let the dealer roll over you (staying civil obviously).What you are suggesting is fraud and is also illegal. Do you think if she had reversed her mods and then ended up in court, they wouldn't find out? I'm not urging anybody to "take it up the bum". I'm saying to honor the contracts you signed when you bought the car. Instead, you're suggesting people cheat MazdaUSA. Nice ethic.

[8.5MS3]

What you are suggesting is fraud and is also illegal. Do you think if she had reversed her mods and then ended up in court, they wouldn't find out? I'm not urging anybody to "take it up the bum". I'm saying to honor the contracts you signed when you bought the car. Instead, you're suggesting people cheat MazdaUSA. Nice ethic.

no im saying people shouldnt bend over because mazda made an inferior product. they should man the fuck up and fix their mistake, read the engineering code of ethics. prove to me how an intake can blow a motor, or a boost gauge can cause a smoking turbo. you sound like you work for mazda

[nhluhr]

no im saying people shouldnt bend over because mazda made an inferior product. they should man the fuck up and fix their mistake, read the engineering code of ethics. prove to me how an intake can blow a motor, or a boost gauge can cause a smoking turbo. you sound like you work for mazdaIntakes blow motors all the time. So many bad things can happen on a MAF based car from an intake change it's not even funny.

I totally agree that if they refuse coverage on your stereo because you have an intake, that you should NOT allow them to get away with it... I just think that in the OPs case, she did something that is known to lead to a problem and now she's trying to have somebody else foot the bill.

HOWEVER, I highly doubt the turbo is the problem at all anyway. I think, like mazda and PTP, it's a PCV issue causing too much oil pressure around the turbo's seals. Maybe you hadn't yet seen this? (nevermind... mazdas247 prevents linking to another site... how... low rent)

[8.5MS3]

Intakes blow motors all the time. So many bad things can happen on a MAF based car from an intake change it's not even funny.

I totally agree that if they refuse coverage on your stereo because you have an intake, that you should NOT allow them to get away with it... I just think that in the OPs case, she did something that is known to lead to a problem and now she's trying to have somebody else foot the bill.

HOWEVER, I highly doubt the turbo is the problem at all anyway. I think, like mazda and PTP, it's a PCV issue causing too much oil pressure around the turbo's seals. Maybe you hadn't yet seen this? (nevermind... mazdas247 prevents linking to another site... how... low rent)

yea i know i posted up on MSF on that thread a few days ago, take a look at my post.

[tunersteve]

Well, to the OP, not being a dick at all, but the DP did it. If I were you and had the foresight to do so, I'd take the BPV off and put it back to stock, save for any Mazdaspeed parts on it, and take it in for repair.

8.5MS3 has done a lot of legwork on this topic and so have I. The tolerances in the original turbos (rev. A) were quite bad, and allowed oil to creep past the seals and enter the exhaust tract. They've since beefed up the seals on the newer (replacement) turbos and it seems to fix the issue. The PCV is being investigated, but right now there hasn't been any development in terms of a definite repair or TSB for that. My local dealer (which supplied me with all the info on the initial TSB or MTOL-5505) sees more CX-7s than anything, but the 5w-40 fix is temporary. It's gotten to the point they just replace the turbos now because the issue is so common. I've been through 2 turbos already, one for smoke, the other for a bearing failure.

Back to the OP, I suggest you buy a different turbo, such as the BNR replacement, PTP SST, or a GT3071 and be done with it. Get a conservative tune and enjoy your car. Or, you sell it. The catted DP just makes the known issue more noticeable.

Dealers are shady as hell now, especially with any MS vehicle, but don't give them any leverage against you. Hopefully you learn something from this experience and don't ever have an issue like this again.

[MSMS3]

People are going to jump all over my ass for what I'm about to say, but I think it needs to be said:

We are no better than Mazda if we "unmod" a car before taking it in for waranty work. It is fraud, plain and simple.

Yes, Mazda screwed up with the PCV system on this car and they need to step up, admit the mistake, make a retroactive and proper fix through TSB or outright recall. They'll probably never do it.

We do have rights under Magnusen-Moss and under most state consumer protectection laws. It is difficult and expensive to enforce those rights.

I think I can speak with some honesty on this point, as I do have intake mod (albeit a MSCAI), but more importantly I am totally voided under my engine warranty and maybe entire drive train for the catless dp/rp.

That's a conscious decision I made. When making these type of mods, it is truly "pay to play." If we are not willing to pay, we should not try to escape our role in contributing to the problem through mods that are likely to make the smoking worse, like my catless dp/rp.

These are high performance cars. Manufacturers and dealers know we drive the piss out of them, mod them to the hilt, frequently race them and that we are going to wear them out faster than the general public. They also know they sell most of them to male drivers under age 30 who statistically are going to be much harder on a car. It's a fact. They are skeptical of warranty claims and I'm not sure that skepticism is unfounded.

BTW: I do have a catch can. I'm not sure that it is really a part of the fix, but it does seem to be beneficial. I get almost no "smoke" 95% of the time, and only a brief amount if I let the car sit at idle for a long time.

This MS3 is the fifth turbo car I've owned. Three Saabs and a Volvo before. All purchased new. I modded all of them soon after purchase, including catless downpipes and in some instances, aftermarket ECU's with higher boost levels. I drove all of them hard, frequently seeing triple digits on the speedometer. To one degree or another, they all "smoked" soon after the catless dp mods. None of them had turbo failures or engine failures, however, except for one car I kept for over 100,000 miles. It did develop turbo shaft wear at a bit north of 80,000 miles. I ordered a rebuild kit and rebuilt it myself.

I did break an engine mount on one of the Saabs the first month I owned it -- during a hard launch at the dragstrip! My dealer did replace the mount under warranty. I told them what happened and they did this as a customer courtesy. They wanted to keep my business. They did not have to, and I know that.

If we are going to complain about the problem with the PCV system, let's at least be honest with our mods when we return to the dealer and be prepared to pay to play when we mod.

[tunersteve]

Well said MSMS3, I think that's a spot-on description.

[camrycev6]

The dealership itself didn't have to prove it. The Mazdaspeed community proved it for them when PTP released their "engineering analysis" of their smoking turbo fix. It clearly states that the reduced backpressure from a downpipe directly causes oil blow-by.

BINGO... It is not the job of the dealership to prove it. They just have to have reasonable cause. It would be then your job to prove them wrong.

[camrycev6]

Well said MSMS3, I think that's a spot-on description.

I concur. Very well said MSMS3.

[nhluhr]

BINGO... It is not the job of the dealership to prove it. They just have to have reasonable cause. It would be then your job to prove them wrong.Well, by the letter of the law, it really is up to them to prove it... All I'm saying is that they won't, because the law is near unenforceable and in most situations, people would lose in court anyway.

[SomnoSpeed3]

The people who say "the dealer CAN'T deny warranty because of... " are almost always speaking in theory only. Real world experience says otherwise.
Getting a lawyer and suing over $700 in repair work is NOT real world. Duh.

[eg6motion]

The people who say "the dealer CAN'T deny warranty because of... " are almost always speaking in theory only. Real world experience says otherwise.
Getting a lawyer and suing over $700 in repair work is NOT real world. Duh.

+1. Not to mention the legal fees in getting your warranty back from the "blacklist".

[Darth Vader]

We have no such coverage up here north of the border and so, are under no illusion that Mazda will pick up the tab if we break our shit by modifying it.

My best "warranty" is in my 10 little piggies performing regular maintenance and my melon helping me avoid mostly obvious hazards.

[microman777]

Don't know if this was mentioned b4 or not, but why not just put it back to stock setup, then take it to another Mazda dealers in another city.

[8.5MS3]

We have no such coverage up here north of the border and so, are under no illusion that Mazda will pick up the tab if we break our shit by modifying it.

My best "warranty" is in my 10 little piggies performing regular maintenance and my melon helping me avoid mostly obvious hazards.

you mod with your feet? Im impressed lol

[Darth Vader]

It's a talent I picked up since losing my hands in a freak Chevy accident....(eek2)

[8.5MS3]

It's a talent I picked up since losing my hands in a freak Chevy accident....(eek2)

ive heard gm has had some issues.....was it this?
shrapnel can kill...

GM Clutches suck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP3EIHp3AqE#)

[Darth Vader]

Fyck a duck! I've seen alot of blowups at the track, had a few myself. That's a good one though. That guy is lucky he didn't end up being fragged. Maybe no such a good idea to put a stock-style trans BH and clutch behind built LS7 motor, hmmmm.

[Wurf]

ive heard gm has had some issues.....was it this?
shrapnel can kill...

GM Clutches suck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP3EIHp3AqE#)

WOW that's a crazy vid.

This is getting OT however, two words - Lakewood Bellhousing.
Always had fears about this with my last car because I didn't have one and well......I like my feet. I did have an SFI billet steel flywheel. I did not have 620hp, only 480 and it was Ford, not GM, but it still was on my mind.

To the OP, personally I would stick with the PT mod, drive the car and see how it goes. I would consult with the techs at PT Performance too. You may find you have oil in the intake and the TMIC and that might take awhile to clear out.

As for Mazda and their warranty, screw them.
Any real pursuit is going to cost you more money in litigation than it's worth IMO and that money would likely be better spent toward fixing the problem with the car and improving it at the same time. You could dump thousands on lawyer with no guarantee of results, or you could dump thousands on a vendor like Race Roots for example and be much happier!

[Darth Vader]

OT: I used a blanket and a Centreforce Dual Friction on my 5.0 supercharged. The Lakewood pissed me off with too many fitment issues in similar applications. (unamused)

I put the PT PCV "fix" in just before I put my DP/RP on. It didn't smoke before and it still doesn't now. I also switched to 10W40 oil in the car. Hardly incontrovertible evidence but, it's working for me so far.

If it ever smokes, I'll pull the damn turbo and rebuild it with proper seals myself.

[Wurf]

OT: I used a blanket and a Centreforce Dual Friction on my 5.0 supercharged. The Lakewood pissed me off with too many fitment issues in similar applications. (unamused)

I put the PT PCV "fix" in just before I put my DP/RP on. It didn't smoke before and it still doesn't now. I also switched to 10W40 oil in the car. Hardly incontrovertible evidence but, it's working for me so far.

If it ever smokes, I'll pull the damn turbo and rebuild it with proper seals myself.

Ah yes...blanket = WAY lighter and easier to install. Have heard similar complaints about Lakewood and alignment issues with starter, pilot bearing, etc.

I am considering the PT fix and my car only has around 8500 on it. Don't see any harm in it and the dealer will never see it anyway.

[SomnoSpeed3]

I got the PT fix and installed it about 3 weeks ago. I still smoke as bad as ever. I hope it's just leftover oil but I'm getting nervous....

[Darth Vader]

Once the seal in the turbo is toasted, you can't go back. When I used to dismantle turbos to rebuild them, the coking around the area prevented any possibility of a seal. Oil getting between the seal and the sealing surface overheats the seal and the entire area, aggravating the leak.

That said, often times when I rebuilt a turbo, there wasn't anything wrong with it. Most times it was a shitty engine it was attached to that was the issue. You can tell this by the amount of oil residue on the hot side of the turbo.

[0260naflash]

i have a STOCK 06 speed6 and had the "smoking turbo" twice. the first time was at 45k miles. it was repaired and covered under the warranty. the reason for the smoke was due to the gaskets in the turbo failing. the same thing happened again at 30k miles. this is when mazda decided NOT to cover the repair and i even went thru mazda customer service(to the highest level of escalation)and they told me "your vehicle has too many miles". i went back and forth for about 3mths over this issue b/c the parts failure has nothing to do w/the mileage on my vehicle.this is assuming that the gasket replacement was the proper action. my service said a definite fix would be to replace the turbo and we all know that's REAL cheap to do! so...yeah mazda told me to o f*** myself w/my stock vehicle. this all occured around April of 09 and since i've added the HKS ssq blow-off valve w/the CPE flange and i'm debating the turbo replacement and carefully planning out my mods(really not looking for any more surprise problems).

[Wurf]

My wife and I are looking at replacing her sedan with a sport-ute or crossover of some type. I have written the Mazda brand off our list. I'm looking at Infinity, Acura, and Subaru right now, and I might even test drive a Ford.

[carbosam]

I just had my turbo replaced under warranty at 17k milles...

Is the new turbo they putted in suposed to be less likely to smoke or break?


Also as far as modding goes, i know personnaly I wont put a single mod on my car before the warranty is up...Its still pretty fast as it is, i dont know why someone would go and put theyre warranty at risk by putting some kind of Bypass valves or change the exhaust for a couple HP.
I mean, its pretty damn clear that it could void your warranty, its to be expected...

[Hank3]

I just had my turbo replaced under warranty at 17k milles...

Is the new turbo they putted in suposed to be less likely to smoke or break?

Check this post (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4959112&postcount=24) from tunersteve. It's got detailed info on the Mazda turbos :)

[corollachic83]

Has anyone ever thought that PTP's "engineering analysis" is wrong? My car has had the fix for almost 2 months now and is smoking back to normal

[corollachic83]

No, it doesn't cure all... my tailpipe has started smoking at idle (mostly when facing downhill(nervous)) and I am 100% stock... which is why I'm reading threads on oil smoke today.

However, in the case of the original poster's car... she modified it before showing any signs of smoking with a modification known to cause smoking.

Many of you in this thread have very idealized opinions of the Magnusson Moss Act. Sure, they are supposed to do all this testing and show proof but really, there is no way to enforce it. You can't call the police to come enforce it. If she were to take this to court, she'd lose, because again, her modifications caused it. You can say all day that I have no proof but you know damn well that her modifications caused it and if it came down to research and a civil suit jury, she's gonna lose because MazdaUSA has far more technical resources to prove it than she has to disprove it.

I have a Previous R.0. for the problem with ZERO mods...So think I have a pretty good shot. Anyways, your contradicting yourself, My mods didn't cause the problem if your car is stock and is smoking as well.

[8.5MS3]

i personally think anything ptp makes is crap. but thats just me

[tunersteve]

The fix is a total guess at that. They may have 'engineered' something, but it's not been a consistent fix across the board.

[corollachic83]

Well here is my update. I decided to Call Mr. Paul Steinburner of Mazda Customer relations regarding my complaint. It's not a matter of my car being modded. I don't mind forking out money for a better turbo. I just don't want to keep a car with a "branded" warranty. I think that is going to far. I am completely willing to take it back to stock. But what if my car "throws a rod" or the head gasket blows. Mazda is denying my whole power train warranty based on a CATTED downpipe. Everything else is stock. If you read the post from the beginning the dealer falsified information to not have to do the repair. Stating I had an intake and that the exhaust had been tampered with and welded. None of that was true. All I'm saying is mazda should have another look at it. Paul assured me the case is not closed and they are going to re investigate. All I'm saying is to stand up fou your rights if you feel they have been fringed upon.

2nd: I have called 2 turbo rebuilding companies in the area who don't want to TOUCH the k04 turbo. They said a rebuild is pointless. I would REALLY APPRECIATE more info on what BNR is doing. A link or a phone number. Thanks

[8.5MS3]

Well here is my update. I decided to Call Mr. Paul Steinburner of Mazda Customer relations regarding my complaint. It's not a matter of my car being modded. I don't mind forking out money for a better turbo. I just don't want to keep a car with a "branded" warranty. I think that is going to far. I am completely willing to take it back to stock. But what if my car "throws a rod" or the head gasket blows. Mazda is denying my whole power train warranty based on a CATTED downpipe. Everything else is stock. If you read the post from the beginning the dealer falsified information to not have to do the repair. Stating I had an intake and that the exhaust had been tampered with and welded. None of that was true. All I'm saying is mazda should have another look at it. Paul assured me the case is not closed and they are going to re investigate. All I'm saying is to stand up fou your rights if you feel they have been fringed upon.

2nd: I have called 2 turbo rebuilding companies in the area who don't want to TOUCH the k04 turbo. They said a rebuild is pointless. I would REALLY APPRECIATE more info on what BNR is doing. A link or a phone number. Thanks

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123753342

[whteltning]

I know Paul...he's a childhood friend :)

[corollachic83]

So I don't know a lot about turbos, only how they work. But if it is a problem with the tolerance of the seals; why not rebuild it with a stronger seal with a higher tolerance with out switching the exhaust side to a Garret. BNR's option seems really good, but the price on the custom turbo it 1,050. Although there is a horsepower gain it is definitely out of my price range right now. Is there any other options? I know that there are rebuild kits for the k04 but with the same exact seals. There is no way to get seals with a higher tolerance to keep the stock turbo?

[SomnoSpeed3]

Has anyone ever thought that PTP's "engineering analysis" is wrong? My car has had the fix for almost 2 months now and is smoking back to normal

Didn't work one bit for me.
Hey experts... Are there any RISKS with limiting the amount of oil through that valve, as the PTP Pill does? Lord knows this car doesn't need any ADDED risk of blowing up.

[s-retire]

Well here is my update. I decided to Call Mr. Paul Steinburner of Mazda Customer relations regarding my complaint.

Paul assured me the case is not closed and they are going to re investigate. All I'm saying is to stand up fou your rights if you feel they have been fringed upon.


I know Paul...he's a childhood friend :)

Who's Paul Steinburner and what is his position with Mazda Customer Relations?

[8.5MS3]

Didn't work one bit for me.
Hey experts... Are there any RISKS with limiting the amount of oil through that valve, as the PTP Pill does? Lord knows this car doesn't need any ADDED risk of blowing up.

the only risk arises when you restrict it too much. I do not know what the stock oil requirements are for the k04 nor what the minimum oil pressure requirement is/what our oil system supplies. but......I would not do the ptp restrictor pill simply because it is not how the stock oil system was designed. ie, higher pressure before the pill when compared to stock causing problems somewhere else.

i still say ptp parts are terrible and do more harm than good

[SomnoSpeed3]

ie, higher pressure before the pill when compared to stock causing problems somewhere else.



This is exactly what I'm worried about.

[whteltning]

Who's Paul Steinburner and what is his position with Mazda Customer Relations?

He's a Customer Assistance Rep for Mazda North American Operations

[kvndoom]

Wow, I wish we'd hear something from Mazda soon on their "official" fix...

[corollachic83]

Well, guess what guys? Mazda North American Operations called me last week and told me that the investigation is now closed and............I'm getting my warranty back and a new turbo!!!!! Oh yea baby!!!! It just goes to show you that if you stand your ground you can get things accomplished. They told me that what the dealership did was falsify a R.O. to get out of the repair. Now I don't know if it was the actual dealership, or the Mazda Rep. but either way an R.O. is a legal document. So never sign off on an R.O. unless you read it and verify everything is correct. They apologized for all the trouble and stress and want to keep me as a future costumer. My opinion is that I obviously love my car, flaws and all. If I didn't, I wouldn't have put up such a fight!


It definitely was not worth all the trouble... Never take a car in with MODS, even if the dealership is cool. If they have to have a MAZDA REP. approve the repair you probably will get screwed. They get Bonuses for staying below a certain warranty repair cost level. The Down-pipe is coming off and going up for sale until my power-train has ended, I know there is definitely a design flaw with the turbo/oil return, but I want to maintain the new turbo for as long as I can. Possibly, by keeping the stock down-pipe (with the 1st cat) and going test pipe. I hear that the 1st cat (being so close to the turbo) helps create more back pressure for the seals.

For a significant power gain I know of a company who is building a FMIC kit and will be selling it for around $400 or $500 dollars. It uses the STOCK bolts and there is absolutely no cutting. It is a complete bolt-on application and can be switched back to stock in under an hour. It hasn't been released yet, but they will be contacting me shortly. I'll give you guys more info if your interested.

Thanks for all your opinions, & good luck with your cars!!!

ZOOM-ZOOM forever!

[kvndoom]

That's great to hear, man!

PS: I'm a girl (stop saying "HE")
(chair) errrr... woman!

[corollachic83]

Hey Everyone, Just wanted to let you know that last friday Mazda put a NEW turbo in my car AS WELL AS a new PCV valve. Yup, that means that the revised PCV is out!!! I haven't had one puff of smoke. I can't tell you how nice it is to be able to drive with the window down without obnoxious fumes entering my car lol Has any one else got the fix yet?

[tunersteve]

Hey Everyone, Just wanted to let you know that last friday Mazda put a NEW turbo in my car AS WELL AS a new PCV valve. Yup, that means that the revised PCV is out!!! I haven't had one puff of smoke. I can't tell you how nice it is to be able to drive with the window down without obnoxious fumes entering my car lol Has any one else got the fix yet?

Do you have the part # for the PCV?

[kvndoom]

Hey Everyone, Just wanted to let you know that last friday Mazda put a NEW turbo in my car AS WELL AS a new PCV valve. Yup, that means that the revised PCV is out!!! I haven't had one puff of smoke. I can't tell you how nice it is to be able to drive with the window down without obnoxious fumes entering my car lol Has any one else got the fix yet?

This could be epically epic. (nailbyt)

[Hank3]

"Could" is a VERY big word right now. Let's prepare for crestfallen-ess and hope for the best :)

[chief_wiggum]

"Could" is a VERY big word right now. Let's prepare for crestfallen-ess and hope for the best :)

Yes; we've been hurt before.

[8.5MS3]

how do you know they didnt just replace the pcv with the same one?

[jengajoe]

All part numbers of replaced parts should be listed on the workorder/invoice.

[SomnoSpeed3]

Mazda replaced my PCV couple months ago... with the exact SAME PART!!! I don't doubt there is no smoke with a new turbo though. I would have to be POSITIVE they gave you a different PCV before I jump for joy.

[nynhex]

That's unfortunate that they are taking the route they did. However, the dealers will do whatever they can to save money on warranty work. Granted, your DP probably didn't cause the Turbo to smoke but as the other poster said it makes the oil burn more apparent. You may or may not even have a problem, actually.

I know it's a bitch but why don't you remove the DP and revert to stock to see if you are still smoking. And definitely try the PCV replacement (it's like 5$ or so) and go synthetic if at all possible.

Out of curiosity, are you running a catch can? Might be a good option to slap one on. I've read where people were having increased smoke from the turbo and it reduced/eliminated with adding it.

[nondual]

That's unfortunate that they are taking the route they did. However, the dealers will do whatever they can to save money on warranty work. Granted, your DP probably didn't cause the Turbo to smoke but as the other poster said it makes the oil burn more apparent. You may or may not even have a problem, actually.

I know it's a bitch but why don't you remove the DP and revert to stock to see if you are still smoking. And definitely try the PCV replacement (it's like 5$ or so) and go synthetic if at all possible.

Out of curiosity, are you running a catch can? Might be a good option to slap one on. I've read where people were having increased smoke from the turbo and it reduced/eliminated with adding it.

Where do you get the PVC replacement?

[tunersteve]

Where do you get the PVC replacement?

I believe Home Depot carries a lot of PVC replacement...

PCV replacements are all over the place. Cobb has a how-to for adding a secondary setup, and other forums have done catch can/2nd PCV packages that are really nice setups.

[nynhex]

I believe Home Depot carries a lot of PVC replacement...

PCV replacements are all over the place. Cobb has a how-to for adding a secondary setup, and other forums have done catch can/2nd PCV packages that are really nice setups.

+1. I'd definitely go with a new PCV/Catch can. Both can be done on the cheap. Auto parts stores are a good bet for factory replacement PCVs. Catch Cans can be bought for 150$ or 20$ if you roll your own via home depot.

[tunersteve]

+1. I'd definitely go with a new PCV/Catch can. Both can be done on the cheap. Auto parts stores are a good bet for factory replacement PCVs. Catch Cans can be bought for 150$ or 20$ if you roll your own via home depot.

You obviously missed my joke...

[nynhex]

Oh I got it... Very clever. 2" Pipe in black should do it lol

[Bryan@BNR]

I have been doing all these KO4 replacements and no smokers! Hello mazda! Come talk business with me. lol

Bryan@BNR

[8.5MS3]

I can have stage 3 please?