C&D: 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 vs. 2010 Volkswagen GTI - Comparison Tests

[Hank3]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q4/2010_mazdaspeed_3_vs._2010_volkswagen_gti-comparison_tests

[mbanshchikov]

Good article. I always thought that the GTI was more refined than the mazdaspeed, with a little more attention to small details. Also, I myself was very displeased with the 2010 speed3 seats, compared to my old 08 speed. At the end of the day, however, it was about the performance for me and I feel like the speed is more of a car for enthusiasts vs the GTI.

[Saskatchewan17]

Good job on the GTI's part. I really love that car. Looks fantastic too... but in all honesty I would rather have the MS3... I just don't like it at all when Magazine writers gripe about torque steer and cars loose comparision tests because they are too powerful! Just lay off the right petal and all should be well.
I can, however, understand why the new gen MS3 lost to the new gen GTI... the GTI has improved (a damn sexy exterior and great new interior) while the MS3 has almost gotten worse (they quote it as having a worse interior and only "so-so" seats, not to mention the fact that it is UGLY! [IMO]). I'll take more power any day though.

[oaklandopen]

totally agree with the article (minus the parts about torque steer in the mazda, and although i like the vw interior as a whole i still am not a plaid fan)

but seriously vw needs to make a damn change to that engine, it's been wayyyy too long. sure the cost stays down, but look at the other cars that it's supposed to run with: 263hp ms3, 260hp cobalt ss/tc, 300hp srt4, and you could even throw in there the wrx and lancer ralliart with their mid-200 hp marks.

i dunno, i've always liked the vws, but just like the sti and evo i have a problem with their overpriced performance models. i like the r32, but the price and rarity is just wayyyy too over-the-top for me. i like the gti as well, but at that price i ended up getting 60 more hp, and uber more torque.

[MS3chriSS]

Its crazy how everyone hates on the grille... I haven't read one review of this car without hearing a bashing over the "Happy" front end. I do agree that the the interior pattern is a little "different" at first glance, but over a little time it grows on you. As for torque steer, its obviously there but it is manageable once you learn the car and gain a sixth sense for when its going to hit you. Besides that I have always loved the GTI, but at VW's asking price you should get more bang for your buck. I guess all I am trying to say is.... HATERS (piss)

[killakev]

I have driven the gti and compared to my 08.5 ms3 its just to civilized. mabey when im 40 years old and get arthritis from the torque steer i will want to drive a gti dsg. then i could take a nap when im racing. vw's are over rated and have been for a long time.

[Design]

I hate to admit it, but I am slightly disappointed with the new MS3's interior. C&D is right to say that lumbar support has diminished. And the interior silver trim is a bit of an eyesore IMO. It's still a fantastic car, and will probably win any other comparison test outside of the GTI.

[DailyDriver]

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[MS3chriSS]

I agree daily driver! Though I believe the WRX is considerably quicker than the MS3. I have also read that the WRX base model has cheap interior and a horrible standard shifter, with a base price considerably high compared to the MS3. Also, the WRX hatch has so far been very hard to come by in the US im not sure if there was a production problem or what but every dealership I went to prior to picking up my 2010 MS3 had no WRX's on hand. As for the VW, way over priced for lack of balls (drinks)

[BoostisLove]

I have driven both and can say that I am 100% glad i chose my ms3. When you buy a Volkswagen you get the German engineering. As opposed to the Japanese, the interior and build quality arent comparable. I'm a euro guy and looked to the GTI first.

I dont agree with theyre skidpads, i do not believe that in any way shape or form would the GTI pull a higher G than the Mazda.

Mazda has more power, cheaper repairs, good interior (better than the first gens in my opinion) and the hardware to go with it.

Mazda easy win.

[Olestra]

I think the Mazda's interior is quite decent. I think improving the seats would make a huge difference. They missed out big time on that area, considering the first gen MS3 seats look and feel amazing.

[Vater]

^+1. If they had kept the original seats, the interior would be flawless, IMO. Well, 99% flawless at least. They got rid of the top center console tray in favor of the moveable armrest and an el cheapo detached plastic storage tray. I wish they could have found a way to keep the inside of the console exactly the same as the 1st gen's and somehow incorporate the moving armrest (which is one of my favorite features).

[Stavesacre21]

GOOD GOSH will they EVER stop bashing on the interior?! For cryin out loud, the GTI has PLAID seats...and that's cool?

The GTI may have a little up on the MS6's interior, but it's obvious which one is pushing to be the more aggressive car. The MS6 clearly isn't shooting to be an average hatchback to haul kids to and fro with some groceries in the back. If so, maybe they would have put in a weak 200HP engine in it.

How bout those uncomfortable seats? Well, if i were swerving in and out through cones I don't wanna be flying all over my seat. Uncomfortable if you're comparing it to a Lincoln...perfect if your wanting to race it. It can't please every market. I find it very acceptable for daily driving

And my oh my...how could we EVER drive a car that has a *gasp* SMILE on the front of it. Enough with that already too.

Simple enough...one is a no-holds performance based hatch, one is a sporty hatch. If you're looking for one or the other, it'll be easy to decide.

[Vater]

The GTI may have a little up on the MS6's interior, but it's obvious which one is pushing to be the more aggressive car. The MS6 clearly isn't shooting to be an average hatchback to haul kids to and fro with some groceries in the back. If so, maybe they would have put in a weak 200HP engine in it.I think you meant MS3. :)

It does seem that C&D has a blatant bias towards the GTI. I don't really get their distaste for the MS3 interior either, when the GTI's is plaid. While I don't care for the MS3-exclusive red psychedelic pattern, at least it's a little more subtle than the GTI's plaid (and, like the exterior, looks better in person than in photos). I guess it's easier to accept the plaid because VW has been using it for decades, despite the fact that it looks like the pajamas I'll be wearing when I'm 70? I dunno...

I do agree with their assessment of the seats' comfort, however. I don't think the 2nd gen. seats (including the MZ3's) are nearly as nice or as comfortable as the 1st gen. The side bolstering is decent, but the seats feel pretty hard after a long drive, and I find myself adjusting the way I'm sitting pretty frequently. That's one of the first things I noticed when I first drove an '04 2.3 hatch--the seats just felt 'right' in every way. Then when I test drove an '08 Speed earlier this year, I was surprised to find that those seats felt even better.

I also don't like the material they used in the new Speed. Looks and feels cheap compared to the 1st gen's alcantara, and even the grey cloth in the '07-'08 GTs. The new seats aren't horrible, but I really think Mazda got it wrong this time around when they had such a fantastic seat previously.

[Cannondale]

mabey when im 40 years old and get arthritis from the torque steer i will want to drive a gti dsg.

Hey, I turn 40 tomorrow! Guess I need to sell my MS3.

I debated back and forth between a '10 GTI and a '10 MS3. Both great cars in my view. I ended up w/ the MS3 b/c I was coming from a VW (Passat) and wanted something different, and b/c I wanted Mazda's superior reliability. As for the pros and cons, I love the MS3's interior except for the red-dotted pattern. Eventually, I plan to swap out the red-dotted dash panels for the plain metallic ones from a MZ3. The smiley face grille is growing on me. The MS3's power is outstanding. And I love the exhaust sound.

Patrick.

[Silver Ecstasy]

I went and test drove a 2010 VW GTI DSG the other day. Here's my thoughts:

-Seats are fantastic and hug you just right, it's a tiny bit better bolstering than the 2009's. The interior room is lovely. Fit my salesperson (6'3") and my service tech with comfort and we were able to all enjoy the test drive. The MS3 is on the tight side for sure (head room and leg room)

-The GTI is not as fast as the MS3 (obviously) but it's still peppy. The DSG is definitely addictive and quicker than the old fashioned 6-speed (manual is fun, but DSG is faster and better gas mileage). Launch Control is AWESOME! 3,000 rpms, let off brake and light those front tires up!!! Although, that open diff is sorta weird, the car was wandering left and right pretty hard core. It wasn't torque steer though, that's what so weird. The left and right front brakes were trying to slow down one or the other wheel to keep the car straight and it was wandering. And I almost forgot, the steering wheel is great. I'd literally want a wheel like that in my car. Felt solid and comfortable to handle.

All-in-all, for the price, the MS3 still wins, seriously. I started trying to come up with a payment and they were asking for over $500 a month. At that rate, STI/EVO here I come! I'm not paying $500 a month for that car, regardless of it's design or capability.

[DailyDriver]

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[Silver Ecstasy]

I'm at about 1,000 miles on the odo now and I don't even think about the seats anymore. They must have broken in a bit plus I guess I'm just getting used to them. But I'm perfectly happy. Each morning when I get in the car I feel 100% satisfied. First few hundred miles though I WAS a little concerned about the seats, but... it's all good now. For anyone with low miles that isn't happy with the seats, just given `em a little more time.

And, the GTI... PLAID seats??? WTF??? When I first saw that pic I thought it was a joke. I would have rejected that car just based on that alone. I'm not too concerned about aesthetics in general, but there's just no way I could drive a car with an interior that looks like that. No way. What market are they after? Certainly nobody that I know. That's so totally "anti-hotrod", and extremely uncool in general. Hope I'm not offending anyone, but... those seats have offended me.

Like my dad always said.."There's a seat for every ass" LOL.

[coololddude]

They are both great hatches. I like the MS3 because that is what I drive. If I drove a GTI I would think it was......An overpriced stinking Nazi car with a girlyman interior..Ooops, sorry my medication is wearing off!

The fact that the MS3 is still in the comparison stage has proved its worth. (Huh!!) You don't hear much about the Caliber SRT4, HHR, and that little chevie SS. I already forgot its name!

[Hank3]

I believe you can upgrade to leather seats for the GTI via their Autobahn package. That would look a bit more pleasing to the eye - albeit at a cost $2,800 ;)

[MSP1524]

I looked at the GTi(4dr) when I was shopping for a new car. Along with the Dodge Caliber SRT4, Subaru WRX(non STi), Honda Civic Si(sedan), VW Jetta GLi, and a Pontiac Vibe GT.Test drove them all. As you would expect all of the them had their plus's and minus's. Now I am a long time VW fan. By my count I have had 15 or so VW's and Audi's over the years and love the way they ride handle and feel. So I was very tempted to go with the GTi. It's a little more refined than the MS3 with a nicer ride and higher end interior. It's not as sporty as the MS3 and of course not as fast however it was a fun drive none the less. There were two reason's I didn't get one. First- is price. Its a couple of grand more than the MS3, and Second- reliability/repair costs. If you have never owned a VAG(VW Audi group) car they can get insanely expensive to own, and repair. I speak from vast experience on this. The Caliber was just not up the the standards of any of the others in terms of build quality. It was fast and that's about it. Oh' the front seats were great! The WRX was nice. The interior was a little cheesey and I'm not a big fan of the exterior styling. And again it was more expensive. I guess if you need AWD it could be the way too go. Having owned Audi's(quattro) I know it comes in handy, especially in snow and rain.The Honda Si was very nice however I wanted the versatility of a hatchback so I ruled it out.Sure was fun to wind-out that V-Tec engine though. The Jetta GLi is the same as the 4dr GTi except its a sedan and even more expensive. And the Vibe GT was not in the performance catagory of the others. So it was the MS3. I guess if you are looking at bang-for-your-buck the MS3 is hard to beat.

[suhailsaeed]

mazdaspeed 3 the best (cool)

[Newf]

am I mssing something, wtf does that pic have to do with the MS3?

[Rainman]

am I mssing something, wtf does that pic have to do with the MS3?

LOLZ....I was thinking the same thing myself.

R

[Vater]

It's hard to tell at first, but it's suhailsaeed's signature. A bit on the overly humongous side...

[oaklandopen]

am I mssing something, wtf does that pic have to do with the MS3?

what do you mean "what does that pic have to do with the MS3?"? you can clearly see a 2008.5 gt with nav 46 back, 3 in from the right. and the guy put the "Axela" badge on in lieu of "Mazdaspeed3"

[Newf]

It's hard to tell at first, but it's suhailsaeed's signature. A bit on the overly humongous side...

HOLY CRAP. i originally thought, it could be a sig, but no way, not that big - so I guess it was.

btw, funny oak.

[james123]

I am slightly disappointed with the new MS3's interior. C&D is right to say that lumbar support has diminished. And the interior silver trim is a bit of an eyesore IMO. It's still a fantastic car, and will probably win any other comparison test outside of the GTI.

[watchurwrist]

I agree daily driver! Though I believe the WRX is considerably quicker than the MS3. I have also read that the WRX base model has cheap interior and a horrible standard shifter, with a base price considerably high compared to the MS3. Also, the WRX hatch has so far been very hard to come by in the US im not sure if there was a production problem or what but every dealership I went to prior to picking up my 2010 MS3 had no WRX's on hand. As for the VW, way over priced for lack of balls (drinks)

According to the latest Consumer Reports, '09 WRX was rated poorly for reliabilty.

[Newf]

Any car or anything with plaid on it....crap. Sorry, but plaid is the ugliest material ever. No matter how much I nit pick about the MS3's seats, they are NOT plaid.

[ruthless013]

i was surprised that C/D gave it to the gti. i've been reading their mags for the last few years, and their picks are usually based on performance numbers OR price. the MS3 wins in BOTH categories, yet still loses.

-gti, according to their test, pulls 1/100th of a lateral G more. ok. otherwise loses (sometimes handily) in every performance test.

-ms3 is significantly cheaper similarly packaged.

-i only test-drove a gen1 MS3 once, can't remember how good/bad the seats were. but i think the gen2 seats are great, and definetely have gotten better in time. the gti seats? seriously? ITS FRIGGIN PLAID! my grandfather had a pair of golf pants the same pattern, and HE threw them out because HE thought they were LAME. i get that it's a gti thing, but come on...

-i think the interior in the MS3 is pretty awesome, although i haven't seen the gti (not since a 2000 one anyway). i never even noticed or cared to examine it when i was shopping though - i was buying the car for a much different reason, like most people in the market for a hot hatch like a gti or MS3. and it's lightning years ahead of a subaru interior.

so basically C/D gave it to the gti for lack of torque steer (due to lack of power), interior/exterior style (if you say so) and 'refinement.'

i'll take the lap times and trap speeds, thanks.

[sephiroth]

yay for parent companies! Go team! ^_^'

[kyoo]

I'm actually in this position, considering both cars for a daily driver.

I started with the MS3 but lately I've really been leaning towards the GTI. One, the interior of the car is simply gorgeous. I don't think anyone can question that the GTI's interior is worlds better than the MS3's.. those are even saying it's "slightly" better are misled.

The main benefits of the MS3 are -
cheaper
better performance out of the box
marginally better cargo capacity

However,
- I'm willing to pay the extra price for the GTI's wonderful interior features/amenities - nicer everything, great seats without the red blotchiness, great looking nav system
- A company called APR tunes the GTI remarkably well - With only a tune crank horsepower increases to 254hp/297lbft of torque. I'll also receive with the tune a feature which allows the car to switch between a performance 93 octane map, a stock map, and a valet mode (limits power/revs). This is as much as I'm looking for, the car will be slightly quicker than a stock MS3
- cargo for me are negligible, both cars have the capacity I am looking for

Chime in if I'm missing anything. VW quality has actually improved a LOT since the old days of MK4, even the early MK5's.

Otherwise I don't see a reason as of right now to go with the MS3 - The nav is tiny, and I would sometimes want the passenger to type in the location for me - not do it myself using the steering wheel at a stop. After having driven both, I'll also say the controls (steering wheel, gearbox, and pedals) feel much better on the GTI.

I hope no one gets offended, just some thoughts from a consumer deciding his next purchase. These are my main two choices, or maybe a used +08 STI but they've been having a lot of motor problems that I'm not comfortable with.

Any other particular reasons to get a MS3 over a GTI?

[oaklandopen]

Any other particular reasons to get a MS3 over a GTI?

that thar sounds like the beginning of a flame war!!!!

but seriously, i agree the interior of the vw is better than the 2nd gen ms3, seeing how mazda went backwards with a couple things. but im just not thrilled (okay, i want to spew) about the plaid. i think the first place i'd drive the gti would be to the nearest wallyworld to find some seat covers

mazda screwed the seats royally, exterior is damn-near a (notcool) accross the board, and the packages seem just weird now

other than that if the aftermarket for the gti is really that good, and that is what you're into, then the gti sounds like a better option for you. plus, editors are always raving about the fit and finish of german cars compaired to everything else

[DailyDriver]

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[kyoo]

Really? With JUST a tune the GTI will be quicker than a stock 2010 MS3?

I don't know enough about it to make "intelligent" comments, but I would suggest looking into this more carefully before just assuming that this magic tune is going to be the end-all perfect answer to the stock GTI's serious power deficiency. There may be some issues / aspects that will not be desirable. If you want to be safe, I'd recommend finding a GTI owner that has had this exact tune done, and see if you can go for a ride in that car and interview the owner etc.... an unbiased guy, not the friend of the guy doing the tuning.

In my opinion, the 2010 MS3 is just barely "fast enough". This is not to suggest that it's not fast, but... I think if it was any "slower", I'd be unhappy with it. It's right on the line. Based on the C&D review, if the stock GTI is indeed considerably slower / less torque etc, I personally couldn't live with it under any circumstances. If power is important to you, you may wish to give this all a lot of thought, because if the magic tune you speak of doesn't work out the way you hope, you may be stuck with a car that is grossly underpowered... and you may be miserable.

What was really important for me was to be able to test drive a brand new bone stock MS3, decide I was satisfied with the power / performance, and then be able to buy the exact car with exact performance. No guess work, no hopes, no depending on a magic "fix" to make the car perform adequately, etc. I personally would not have wanted to take that risk.

Maybe power / performance is not AS important to you as the interior etc, that's fine... we all have different values / goals... but if power IS important to you, I'd think twice about buying an underpowered car and then hoping you can bump up the power via the promise of a magic tune or whatever. I'm sure the tune will help, but it might not truly provide what you're expecting.

If power IS important to you, you might want to just consider going with the new MS3 which will definitely give you well dialed in factory power out of the box with appropriate torque management etc... there's no better way to have it. You need not touch the car, and it'll be ready, right off the showroom floor, to blow the doors off any stock GTI or almost any other car in its class. It's a nice thing to be able to buy a car that is ready to perform, right off the showroom floor.

Funny, ever since I read that C&D comparison test, I've noticed a lot more new GTIs on the road (because I'm just more aware of them now)... and EVERY time I see one, it's always in my rear view mirror, slowly disappearing... makes sense. They don't even try to keep up. It's kind cool driving a car that's so intimidating, with the guts to back it up.

Well, best of luck with your decision in any case. Yeah, the MS3 interior is perhaps not the "finest" interior on the planet, but it's surely not as bad as a lot of you guys suggest. For my purposes anyway, it's way more than adequate, I'm 100% happy with it... especially considering what I paid for the car. But I'll admit, power is more important to me than interior refinement. Quite honestly, when I went to see the MS3 for the first time and saw the price, I expected way worse in terms of both power and the interior... but of course, as we all know here, for the money the MS3 gives you loads of power and an interior that is at the very least above "adequate". It does NOT suck. It's fine. It ain't the best, but it's fine. Would I trade power for more interior refinement? NO WAY. That's just me.

(drive2)

Thanks for a great post -

I've done a lot of research, the tune has actually been around since the mark 5 days, and it's been well proven to produce the power that it does. The huge amount of increase in torque does exist, and I love that I could switch to a valet mode. I don't think it's a trade interior for power in that case. Just whether or not the extra cost is worth it.

A lot of people don't like the plaid - I actually didn't either, until I saw it in person - it's actually visually appealing, not to mention unique. Seats IMO are a lot better than the MS3 in terms of bolstering, and the gauges look great, with a very nice layout and navi layout as well.

Some other things to note, interior dimensions for the cars are pretty similar -rear leg room between the two cars is quite close (ms3 being at 36.2 and the gti being at 35.5) which is something important to me,
- gas mileage for the gti is also at 30mpg, which is quite good - even with the tune it has been shown to retain or improve this mpg rating. I think with the tune the two cars will be quite competitive
-with the ms3, the driver must input the navigation using controls on the steering wheel himself - the gti uses a touch screen that can be used by the passenger (say if you're focusing on going somewhere and your passenger puts in direction for you)

I think the amount of power the car produces with the tune is good enough for me, and if it keeps with the stock MS3 I'm fine with that. As I said, the car will serve as my DD (evo ix in the garage) with some usage at auto-x.

With that, I consider the MS3 because it has a mechanical LSD. The GTI has a "XDS diff" which is basically a system that brakes the inside wheel. The GTI does not allow you to fully defeat the stability control, but with the mark vi the car basically lets you get away with murder before it engages..

Basically, considering a GTI that makes basically similar power, is the refinement of the GTI worth the extra cost? is the question I'm considering

[Saskatchewan17]

Thanks for a great post -

I love that I could switch to a valet mode. I don't think it's a trade interior for power in that case. Just whether or not the extra cost is worth it.

Basically, considering a GTI that makes basically similar power, is the refinement of the GTI worth the extra cost? is the question I'm considering

First... you don't want to be switching tune modes so often... it takes around 100 miles of regular driving when reflashing or reintroducing a tune for the fuel trims to settle in and where you can romp on it. So you don't want to be switching in and out of tunes all the time while daily driving.

Secondly, no. It's not worth the price premium for the "refinement." If you want a quiet little eurowagon... go with the GTI. If you want something that is extrordinary to drive and combines an excellent package of performance and everyday useability/refinement/comfort/space then choose the MS3.

Done. I respect the GTI but if you want performance AND still get most everything the GTI has with a Japanese flair... MS3.

Seriously, test drive both... and compare for yourself, don't listen to magazines.

[Olestra]

Does the GTI retain it's warranty once you've flashed the ECU?
That is another deal breaker for many if the answer is no.

[kyoo]

First... you don't want to be switching tune modes so often... it takes around 100 miles of regular driving when reflashing or reintroducing a tune for the fuel trims to settle in and where you can romp on it. So you don't want to be switching in and out of tunes all the time while daily driving.

Secondly, no. It's not worth the price premium for the "refinement." If you want a quiet little eurowagon... go with the GTI. If you want something that is extrordinary to drive and combines an excellent package of performance and everyday useability/refinement/comfort/space then choose the MS3.

Done. I respect the GTI but if you want performance AND still get most everything the GTI has with a Japanese flair... MS3.

Seriously, test drive both... and compare for yourself, don't listen to magazines.

Fuel trims are factored into the tuning - it would only be for stock when going to the dealer (to keep the warranty), and valet when valeting the car. I'll almost never change the modes anyway.

Also, I have driven both cars, so I do have a good sense of how they both drive. I was able to wring out the ms3 actually, I have a friend who works at a Mazda dealership.

Basically, for the 3k extra I would be paying for the GTI (28k including the tune) the main things I would be getting are:

- better interior
- better navigation
- better controls (gearbox/steering wheel/pedals, from my own opinion)
- better mpg
- hid's

As of now, I feel that it's worth it - I'm only giving up a mechanical diff and fully defeatable traction control.

[NathanR]

How can you compare the power of a TUNED GTi to the power of a STOCK MS3? That's like comparing an apple to a toaster.

A preference on style is pure opinion and like hineyholes, EVERYONE has an opinion.
Raw numbers are factual. There's little to no dispute when it comes to the performance numbers on stock car vs. stock car.

What could you do with a 23,000 MS3 and another 5,000 in goodies? (Which would equal the 28,000 you're suggesting the GTi would cost.)

When my wife and I were considering our recent purchase, we had (FINALLY!) narrowed down our search to two cars: the GTi and the MS3. We test drove the GTi a couple of times while we waited for the '10 MS3's to hit the dealership lots. When they finally arrived, we went out and test-drove the MS3. The difference was so ridiculously apparent, that we bought the MS3 on the spot.

YMMV

[kyoo]

How can you compare the power of a TUNED GTi to the power of a STOCK MS3? That's like comparing an apple to a toaster.

A preference on style is pure opinion and like hineyholes, EVERYONE has an opinion.
Raw numbers are factual. There's little to no dispute when it comes to the performance numbers on stock car vs. stock car.

What could you do with a 23,000 MS3 and another 5,000 in goodies? (Which would equal the 28,000 you're suggesting the GTi would cost.)

When my wife and I were considering our recent purchase, we had (FINALLY!) narrowed down our search to two cars: the GTi and the MS3. We test drove the GTi a couple of times while we waited for the '10 MS3's to hit the dealership lots. When they finally arrived, we went out and test-drove the MS3. The difference was so ridiculously apparent, that we bought the MS3 on the spot.

YMMV

Because a stock MS3's power (and GTI with one tune) is the maximum amount of horsepower I want on a FWD/DD car. I've already put my money into my Evo for track business, so power is not the absolute goal.. As power is the MS3's most distinctive quality, I was just gauging responses from other owners for other qualities the car has, if both the GTI and the MS3 produced similar amounts of power.

[kyoo]

http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/12/comparison-test-2010-volkswagen-gti-vs-2010-mazdaspeed-3.html

Another article

[DailyDriver]

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[kyoo]

Ehhh, there's no way the GTI could truly "win" in a comparison test like this. Bottom line, "car guys" test these cars, and "car guys" will ALWAYS prefer the car with the greatest performance... period. Apparently Volkswagen must be greasing everyone this time around. I'm sure if you asked any of the guys testing these cars which one they'd want to take home, they'd all pick the MS3... to me that means it won the comparison.

I'm sure the GTI has its strong points, I'm sure it's a good car for what it is. But, based on the reviews, if the GTI is truly that much behind the MS3 in the performance department, what "car guy" is going to want it? I just don't buy it. The MS3 overall is good enough that its performance advantage should put it WAY over the edge in such a comparison... and should win.

No offense to anyone, but the GTI strikes me more as a car for college girls or something... it's not a hotrod, it's not really a true car enthusiast's car. How can it be with such a lack of power / performance? Too bad VW didn't really pack some punch into this thing, it might have been a neat car. But then they probably would've bumped the price by a few more grand too.... and thus the MS3 would still have been a clear winner.

Well, to each his own, I can appreciate that performance is not the most important thing to all drivers, but, it certainly is to all the car enthusiast people I know. And right now, if you put 5 cars in front of me and asked me to test them all and choose one to keep, it would be a 99% chance that I'd choose the one with the greatest performance... UNLESS every other aspect truly sucked bad... but in the case of the MS3, all the other aspects of the car are NOT bad at all.... sure, some guys want to nit-pick about the red-dotted interior and less than stellar audio system, but that's just silly, if red dots on the seats bother you so much that you are willing to forfeit excellent thrilling performance, then you really are NOT a "car guy"... and are probably a college girl. (boobs2)

Definitely untrue - there's more to driving than outright speed - driving dynamics plays a huge part. I would take a M3 or a Lotus Evora, Porsche Cayman S over a Nissan GT-R all day.

However, if you're looking for outright speed, obviously the MS3 is the way to go.

[pmh67]

I heard about these guys when I had my VR6 Corrado...they do some neat stuff now:
http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3_20_tsi_trans.html

Wish there was someone like APR for Mazdaspeeds...

[DailyDriver]

.

[N2OInferno]

I was in this position when I traded my Protege5 in 2007. I bought the GTI back then. It was a four door with DSG, leather, everything except navigation. I loved the car. Why did I get it over the MS3? Refinement, really. A plus was that my wife really wanted me to have something with an auto in case she needed to drive it, so I was willing to compensate because DSG is just that good of a transmission. Seeing that she's never driven anything I've owned I think I'll just make my own decision next time, haha. Though it'd be a tough choice to not get DSG again, honestly.

Well, to make a long story short a terrible VW dealership crashed my car while it was in for maintenance and they bought it back from me for a meh price. Sucks, but I can't blame VW for it. I'm not one to cut down a tree because it gave me a bad apple. All I can do is never go to that dealership again and tell everyone I know about my experience. Anyway, I'm in the situation again that I'll be picking up a new vehicle hopefully next year. There are a bunch of contenders on my list, and these two are at it again.

So I'll summarize what I can. Keep in mind this is on the PREVIOUS generation because I have yet to look at a new Mazdaspeed3.

In the end I bought it because the GTI felt far more refined. Granted, that's my opinion, but nobody is going to sway it. The base plaid seats in the GTI feel better. Go up to leather and you get even more bolstered European sport seats. Really, they were perfect. The steering wheel is amazing. If I could take that steering wheel with me to any car, I would. Oh, and after owning it and doing tons of highway driving, there were plenty of times where I could squeeze 32-34 miles per gallon out of the engine without doing crazy hypermiling stuff.

As for reliability and the VW brand since it's pretty notorious for things going wrong, I had one gremlin with the car at about 30k miles, and that situation ultimately ended up in me no longer owning it as I said above. Other than that, none of the horror stories about reliability that are all over the place. At the time my wife had an 07 Jetta with the 2.5 5-cyl, which we sold earlier this year. It never had any problems.

Ok back to the GTI and some downsides.. It was peppy. It was definitely a lot faster than my Protege5, so I was okay with the power it had. The Mazdaspeed3 is a lot faster though. A lot. I had planned getting a tune and sitting at around 280whp or so, which is pretty easily doable, but never ended up getting it done. Then you have to worry about voiding the warranty. I know a lot of dealerships don't care if you have a tune and basic bolt ons, but there are just as many that do care. Also, maintenance is expensive. I know, go to any dealership and maintenance is expensive, but this was nuts compared to my Protege. Keep in mind that this was the same dealership that I had my Protege serviced at since it was a VW/Mazda dealership. All of my oil changes minus one were free. Otherwise each would have run me about 80 bucks a pop for full synthetic plus the filter. I love the DSG, and I really would consider it again, but it has one huge hurdle. The maintenance on it, through the factory, is 800 dollars every 30k miles! Sure, I know, don't take it to the dealership and save a bunch of money, right? ECS tuning offers the oil and the tool to do it for three hundred bucks. For a transmission oil change. That's still no small chunk of change. If you already have the tool, it's about 140 bucks for just the oil and filter.

I'm not sure what I'll do honestly. I've driven a few cars on my list. Took a Hyundai Genesis Coupe out for a spin and have been on their boards since before the car came out so I've seen what's brewing in the pot for them too. It's very impressive (normally I'd never consider a Hyundai) and I like it a lot, but I'm thinking that due to another family member being on the way I'd be better off with a four door. Until just lately I wasn't even considering the Mazdaspeed3. I hated the way the front end looks. The more I look at it now though, the more it grows on me. I do think I lean towards the looks of a GTI a bit more, but I also think that I'd like to have a bit more power out of the box this time.

I do think that in the end the GTI and the Mazdaspeed3 are both great cars. They both have their merits and they both have their flaws. I think any car enthusiast could find plenty of reasons to be happy with either of them.

Sorry for such a long post, but I figured any extra information from someone who owned a GTI might be useful, since most of the time you're going to get a very biased reply from a specific-car-based forum.

[kyoo]

definitely i agree - i don't consider the GTI a hot hatch - it's more like a GT hatch, that can nearly run with hot hatches, and can with a tune. the MS3 IS the better performance car for sure

[N2OInferno]

The GTI is the original hot hatch. ;)

It can still hold its own. It's just not as fast as some of the competition.

[oaklandopen]

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2010-volkswagen-scirocco.htm

[N2OInferno]

We'll never see the Scirocco in the USA :(

[Vindikacione]

Sorry, I have to vent. King for three years and a 200hp, 2-door takes the crown? Utter BS!!!!

I dislike GTIs.

Not because they're Volkswagens (They used to make killer RV mini-vans). But because media is calling it a better car. Can't wait to be back in the states to test drive one and find out for myself. I'm sick of picking up every car magazine at the PX and it reads GTI on the front cover. SICK OF IT!!!

At least C&D put the MS3 back on their annual top ten list!

Okay, I feel better now. Sorry MAZDA FORUMS. I had to express my anger non-violently. Everyone have a blessed New Years!

V.

[sanblaster]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it man.

[SwampAss]

The GTI is a bad assed car. It's down on HP but cars are much more than numbers on a sheet of paper.

[bigdaddy]

yeah, it looks friggin sweet too. Plus build quality is higher than the Mazda and the new speed 3 is absolutely heinous. Inside and out.

[Scott]

Comparing new model for new model, I would take the GTI hands down any day of the week. And that's not just because I have a Passat. The new generation of 3's are ugly as hell in my opinion. Stack the new GTI up against the previous MS3 and it would be a much tougher decision for me.

[Jdm_Mica]

Girlfriend might be picking up a tornado red gti soon....I hope

[smoke_31]

I just wish the MS3 would become more mainstream. I've stopped buying magazines because every magazine these days is either M3, 240, GTR, GTI, ect. I would like to be able to buy a magazine that actually features an MS3 or a magazine that actually purchased an MS3 as a project vehicle.

I understand there have been a few articles (literally, about 3) but everyone seems to avoid our car like the plague. Perhaps the market for the MS3 would open up and it would become more popular and be able to make more power if we had some form of media back-up (I bet a magazine that bought an MS3 as a project car would find a way to make power pretty quick).

With that said, I do like maintaining the "sleeper" profile that accompanies the MS3. I guess I just wish it was less of a black sheep.

Not sure if any of this made sense. I am heavy medicated at the moment.

[Kain]

2009 called, they want their thread topic back.

[Saskatchewan17]

Moved to 2010 MZ3/MS3 and merged with an existing thread on the same topic.

[DailyDriver]

.

[Vindikacione]

Holy CRAP! How could I have not realized that! The GTI is only a TWO-door verses the MS3 4-door! Thus, no comparison... at all.

I bought the MS3 as a mini-family hauler / utility vehicle. I have a baby-seat in the rear. A 2-door GTI would have never worked for me.

The way I see it, it makes no sense to compare an MS3 to a GTI. The MS3 is WAY more flexible from an ergonomics point of view, and is FASTER. Done, period, finished, end of story.

If anything, why don't we see comparisons of the MS3 verses the WRX? This would make more sense. At least the WRX is a 4-door and is a good performer with AWD. I know there have been such comparisons in the past, but I have not seen any yet for 2010. Though after checking both out first-hand, I preferred the MS3 anyway. But I wouldn't rule out a WRX if I needed to replace the MS3 for some reason.

The GTI is just a "different" type of car that will appeal to those with different desires and needs. It's not really a "hot" hatch, as well it's not even a 4-door. So, I'm sure it's just fine for those who are less interested in high performance and don't need to carry lots of stuff including infants etc.

I wanted a car that was inexpensive, FAST, could carry lots of stuff and was generally very flexible... and I got one.... the 2010 MS3. Perhaps it's not a "better" car than a GTI, but it's just "different" type of car. Why they are being compared I have no idea. VW marketing is really stretching things here, trying to muscle in on MS3 territory... sorry VW, no comparison.

You said it best... But I like to think the comparo as something more towards the difference between a Glock and a single stack 1911 (the essence is rounds before reload). But still, with this Glock (MS3) I'm shooting .45 ACP, while the 1911 (GTI) only has 9mm chambered. I prefer the Glock. Wouldn't you?

[SwampAss]

GTI also comes in 4dr

[R-X-R]

nothing i like about gti.,,.
comes from a person who works on VW/Audi

[ottawaP5]

Holy CRAP! How could I have not realized that! The GTI is only a TWO-door verses the MS3 4-door! Thus, no comparison... at all.

I bought the MS3 as a mini-family hauler / utility vehicle. I have a baby-seat in the rear. A 2-door GTI would have never worked for me.

The way I see it, it makes no sense to compare an MS3 to a GTI. The MS3 is WAY more flexible from an ergonomics point of view, and is FASTER. Done, period, finished, end of story.

If anything, why don't we see comparisons of the MS3 verses the WRX? This would make more sense. At least the WRX is a 4-door and is a good performer with AWD. I know there have been such comparisons in the past, but I have not seen any yet for 2010. Though after checking both out first-hand, I preferred the MS3 anyway. But I wouldn't rule out a WRX if I needed to replace the MS3 for some reason.

The GTI is just a "different" type of car that will appeal to those with different desires and needs. It's not really a "hot" hatch, as well it's not even a 4-door. So, I'm sure it's just fine for those who are less interested in high performance and don't need to carry lots of stuff including infants etc.

I wanted a car that was inexpensive, FAST, could carry lots of stuff and was generally very flexible... and I got one.... the 2010 MS3. Perhaps it's not a "better" car than a GTI, but it's just "different" type of car. Why they are being compared I have no idea. VW marketing is really stretching things here, trying to muscle in on MS3 territory... sorry VW, no comparison.

Sorry but these cars are comparable. And yes, the GTI is a hot hatch. It's just more balanced than the MS3, which means some people will perceive it as less of a performance car. I drove it and it felt more connected to the road than the MS3. The GTI is also dynoing 201WHP, whereas the MS3 is dynoing 230-240WHP, so there is a power difference for sure, but not a huge one.

You may be in love with your MS3, that's fine. But everyone has different tastes. For me, it's GTI all the way.

[kvndoom]

Comparing new model for new model, I would take the GTI hands down any day of the week. And that's not just because I have a Passat. The new generation of 3's are ugly as hell in my opinion. Stack the new GTI up against the previous MS3 and it would be a much tougher decision for me.

Seconded. If I were buying now, the GTI would be an easy choice. But I was buying back in June, when Speed3's were beautiful and GTI's were fugly. Funny the difference a few months makes?

I'm not hung up on the HP difference either. The biggest deciding factor for me would be price. Adding a few options can put the GTI into low-mileage BMW territory real quick.

[BoostisLove]

I have driven the gti and compared to my 08.5 ms3 its just to civilized. mabey when im 40 years old and get arthritis from the torque steer i will want to drive a gti dsg. then i could take a nap when im racing. vw's are over rated and have been for a long time.

lol

[kyoo]

gti comes in 4 door...

[MSP1524]

Remember, just chipping a GTi to get it in the same HP range as the MS3 will give it the same torque-steer 'bug-a-boos' as the MS3. And the GTi doesn't have a LSD or any of the other things Mazda engineered into the MS3 to help it deal with the high HP. There's a reason VW stopped at 200hp. That's why when the the new VW 'R' version comes out it will be 270 hp but with AWD like previous R's.
And the MS3 is not dynoing at 230hp or so. I don't know where people are getting these numbers. It's true the GTi is underrated a little bit. It usually dyno's at between 201-206hp. However all the dyno's I've seen for the stock MS3 have been pretty close to the stock claimed figure of 263hp. Give or take 3 or 4 hp. The lowest stock one I have seen so far is 256HP. If your only getting 230 or 235hp out of your stock 2010 MS3 something is def wrong with your car.

[ottawaP5]

Remember, just chipping a GTi to get it in the same HP range as the MS3 will give it the same torque-steer 'bug-a-boos' as the MS3. And the GTi doesn't have a LSD or any of the other things Mazda engineered into the MS3 to help it deal with the high HP. There's a reason VW stopped at 200hp. That's why when the the new VW 'R' version comes out it will be 270 hp but with AWD like previous R's.
And the MS3 is not dynoing at 230hp or so. I don't know where people are getting these numbers. It's true the GTi is underrated a little bit. It usually dyno's at between 201-206hp. However all the dyno's I've seen for the stock MS3 have been pretty close to the stock claimed figure of 263hp. Give or take 3 or 4 hp. The lowest stock one I have seen so far is 256HP. If your only getting 230 or 235hp out of your stock 2010 MS3 something is def wrong with your car.

Everyone I know is getting around 230-240WHP on a stock MS3. Maybe it has something to do with dynojet vs other dynos?

[oaklandopen]

Different dynos make different numbers, not to mention the thousand other reasons dyno numbers are different. Mine did in the low 260s each of the 3 pulls i did at UTI on their dyno, stock.

Dyno numbers mean more when you mod. Like instead of saying you got 240 whp on an ms3 with a cai, its better to say your car went from 225 whp to 240 whp after your base pull then adding the cai