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Danems6
11-13-2009, 02:28 AM
First off..
some of you will know this info, others wont so here is a brief reason of why i did it.
why?
A 17 pound cast iron monster lives right under cylinder # 3, blocking potential oil capacity and provides what i would guess is a pound or two of rotating mass ( rotating mass robs power from each revolution of a piston, so taking off or reducing rotating mass essentially gives you a motor that has to work less to produce power; lightweight pullys, flywheels, wheels, ect.)
The oil capacity goes up a quart or so with the removal of the balance shaft, which is a major selling point to me.
Ill let the blown motor threads and the speculation that the B/S (balance shaft) is causing some blown motors through inadequate oil distribution to be discovered elsewhere.

for some stages, i do not have pictures, because they are basic steps, and if you are not able of performing them on your own, you shouldn`t be attempting this install.

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Ninja edit by Blendercloud
Before doing this:
It is important for users to know that this will definitely void any warranty you have with Mazda for the engine and most-likely the drivetrain as well. There are pro's and con's to this procedure. To read more about the possible consequences, please check the links (thanks Tunersteve) below. While removing the balance shaft does not alter the balance of the engine, it does allow significant forces to go untamed creating additional stresses on internal and external components alike. It should also be noted that unless you intend to do significant changes to internal engine components that affect the overall balance of the engine's rotating mass (such as balancing individual engine components), you should NOT proceed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance

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Jack up the car.
remove oil cap.
use a 17mm socket to pull drain plug.
drain oil.
remove oil filter.



next, remove the 12 10mm bolts that secure the oil pan from the bottom.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0344.jpg


remove the 4 8mm bolts that lay parallel to the ground on the passanger side, next to a hard line covered in rubber/silicon.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0349.jpg

remove the 4 14mm oil pan bolts that parallel to the ground on the drivers side, near the flywheel area. (two point one way, two point the opposite)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0339.jpg

Do not worry about this black hard line, it is for your oil dipstick and will simply slide off when you pull the pan.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0338.jpg

Use a hammer or similar to pry the oil pan and break the seal of the stock gasket material.
I pried off the front, near where the oil filter goes.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0356.jpg

carefully, remove pan. some finaggling (haha) might be needed.

Next, there is some type of oil pick up tube(made of black plastic) which is held on by two 8mm bolts, remove them, and pull the plastic piece. (reinstall after balance shaft is out! VERY IMPORTANT!)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0377.jpg


Remove the 4 14mm bolts that connect the balance shaft to the rest of the block.
(note: when these are removed the balance shaft will come out, so have a friend hold the shaft or keep a hand holding it up to remove last one or two bolts)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0363.jpg

I did NOT remove the ring that turns the balance shaft. I did not have any tools to do it and i didnt quite know what it entailed. if someone has info feel free to chime in.

use the delete kit and 8mm alan bolt to plug the old oil feed hole of the balance shaft. (if i have my cylinder #`d correctly, it is between # 3 and #4 cylinders; the two closest to the drivers side.)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0391-1.jpg


remove all the gasket material that was left on the block where the oil pan met up to it.

reinstall the black oil feed thing with the two 8mm bolts.

now back to that oil pan, remove any of that stock gasket material that may still be on it.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0366.jpg

the oil baffle is optional, but i would recommend it, and there is also a windage tray coming to the market soon i believe.
also i cleaned out my oil pan to see how dirty it was. it was pretty bad.
remove the stock oil baffles ( if you bought a new one to install), which are connected by 10mm bolts, then install a baffle as seen here.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0375.jpg

apply grey tube gasket material to outside of pan (mostly on top, but i believe the passenger side where the 8 mm bolts went was on the side of the pan for gasketing.)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0396.jpg

reinstalling the oil pan is going to be hit or miss. for me it took a few attempts but i knew right when i had it, and having the help of babs was a plus. make sure the dipstick line gets in there and everything lines up. mine lined up quite well.

reinstall the 12 10mm bolts, the 4 8mm bolt on the passanger side, and the 4 14mm bolts near the flywheel area.

reinstall filter, drain plug, and fill with oil ( an extra quart at least)

reward yourself with a beer.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0373.jpg

enjoy working on your car (yours truely)
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0342.jpg

and watch babs lift some weights
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0390.jpg




NOTES!!!!
after pulling my pan, i realized how much oil was still in there. an oil change doesnt get all of it out thats for sure.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0364.jpg


This thing is huge a ridiculous.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/danems6/CIMG0403.jpg


Impressions...
well. i have some piece of mind now. extra oil and a free`d up oil pan with good oil access to all parts of crank make me feel good.
Did i notice a huge difference, probably in my head but maybe. not really. but my butt dyno rarely feels anything ever.
Vibrations.
at idle, i noticed no difference what so ever.
driving, i noticed a bit from 2500-4000 under certain load types, but not enough to make me regret doing it, not even close.

hope this helps some one out.
and thanks to babs for drinking beer and giving me a hand.
__________________

ms6acton
11-13-2009, 07:51 AM
nice write up. ive been considering this mod for quite sometime now. you might have just tipped the scales in making me want to do it

Danems6
11-13-2009, 11:36 AM
really pretty easy..
6 pack and some oil rags and your good to go.

BIGJOHNB20
11-13-2009, 05:17 PM
Guess, I have to ask - What is the purpose of the Balance Shaft from the factory?

Danems6
11-13-2009, 09:47 PM
Guess, I have to ask - What is the purpose of the Balance Shaft from the factory?

to reduce the in cabin vibrations that are common with an in-line 4 motor.
its basically a counterwieght

TXspeed6
11-24-2009, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the write-up!

amilliems6
11-24-2009, 08:33 PM
lol dane

tunersteve
11-25-2009, 12:55 PM
The purpose is explained here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance

Danems6
11-25-2009, 01:03 PM
lol dane

haha ya... this site is a little short in the write up department.. cant hurt to throw it up.

sleeperms6
11-26-2009, 05:13 PM
Is this procedure really a positive one in regards to lost HP and not enough oil despersion throughout the engine? is this needed as you increase HP with boltons on our motors.

TexasSpeed6
11-26-2009, 09:41 PM
It isnt needed, but its nice.

The new mains me and phantom3 are developing on msf will require a BSD because it uses the bolt holes for the BS to become a 4 bolt main on #3 and #4.

markspd6
12-14-2009, 05:58 AM
so is this just like the shifter weight?? of no use really that is.. im just trying to understand why mazda would waste so much money to put this in??(wedge)

tunersteve
12-14-2009, 10:46 AM
so is this just like the shifter weight?? of no use really that is.. im just trying to understand why mazda would waste so much money to put this in??(wedge)

Read the links I posted.


The purpose is explained here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance

Danems6
12-15-2009, 06:01 AM
long story short its a counterweight put in to eliminate (or decrease) vibrations that inline 4 cylinders are notorious for.

reading helps.
tunersteve provided some good links.

GiJoe
12-15-2009, 07:03 AM
Warranty users beware....

Blendercloud
12-15-2009, 10:34 AM
Thanks for the good "How-to", Dane.

I'm going to edit your post in my own name with a bit of a disclaimer.

tunersteve
12-15-2009, 10:39 AM
One additional bit of info, if you're doing the BSD, this would also guide you to do a baffle or windage tray install as well. PTP, F2, and several others make options for this that are available.

Little Beavis
12-15-2009, 10:46 AM
What BSD kit did you use and from where? Also what baffle/windage tray and from where? Very curious. I'm guessing the 2010 MS3 is the same way, so yeah there is a benefit here. . .

tunersteve
12-15-2009, 10:48 AM
What BSD kit did you use and from where? Also what baffle/windage tray and from where? Very curious. I'm guessing the 2010 MS3 is the same way, so yeah there is a benefit here. . .

You can get the BSD and windage tray from PTP, F2, Cosworth (only the BSD), and several others. For everything including the tray, you're looking at $75-100 depending on parts. I would imagine the 2010 MS3 has an identical design in it.

Danems6
12-16-2009, 03:00 AM
Thanks for the good "How-to", Dane.

I'm going to edit your post in my own name with a bit of a disclaimer.

good idea.. go for it!! haha

little beavis-
i got the F2 balance shaft delete (and baffle), it was so long ago i forgot where i got it from.
and yes, it will work on the 2010 ms3 no problem.

the "baffle" is optional, by highly recommended. (look into a windage tray from PTP maybe?)
the balance shaft delete itself is a simple block off plate (around 20 bucks im guessing)
the baffle will cost around 80 (look up for ms3/ms6/2.3 4cyl mazda 6, or a ford 3.2, they should be all the same)

alsaez
01-13-2010, 01:30 PM
I got my bsd kit & tray from PT performance http://www.pt-performance.com/showProduct.php?vID=4&cID=4&pID=228&sID=963f3bndku2kkqt0lbbbujf1j4
Im glad i took the 18 lbs monster out of there, car accelerates faster with minimal vibrations

orlando
02-09-2010, 01:26 PM
I tried this but did not care for the vibrations. Tried to reinstall but still vibrates? Is there special way reinstalling this? Hate to drop pan again.

FORZDA 1
02-09-2010, 01:57 PM
I tried this but did not care for the vibrations. Tried to reinstall but still vibrates? Is there special way reinstalling this? Hate to drop pan again.

Well, duh. The FSM has the procedure to reinstall in the correct position. If you just stuck it back up in there you can create more problems for yourself. The BS must be timed to the crankshaft and eccentric weight positions....

Oh yeah, hope you didn't misplace or reposition the shims at each mounting pad either. They set the drive gear backlash.

Blendercloud
02-10-2010, 11:46 AM
I tried this but did not care for the vibrations. Tried to reinstall but still vibrates? Is there special way reinstalling this? Hate to drop pan again.

Your best bet is to remove it again and leave it out. If you have to ask how it goes back in, you probably shouldn't be doing it yourself. Sorry in advance if that sounds condescending.

Danems6
02-10-2010, 07:16 PM
yaaa thats pretty gnarly.. probably all mistimed and even worse. i would say take it out. if it means that much to you have it professionally installed.

orlando
02-10-2010, 07:22 PM
ok, now I have deleted it , what is proper procedure to reinstall? I did it twice but still I get vibrations?

FORZDA 1
02-10-2010, 07:35 PM
ok, now I have deleted it , what is proper procedure to reinstall? I did it twice but still I get vibrations?

Ok, in a nutshell, you must set the crankshaft to #1 TDC, then set the balance shafts both at BDC and install it without rotating anything. Then, using a dial indicator, measure the balancer gear play for thrust and radial. If it is within specs you're good, if not, you must remove the BS, measure the current shim(s) thickness, subtract the amount out of tolerance and select the proper thickness shim part number from the list in the manual. Then order it from your dealer.

The procedure is quite easy mechanically, but requires a couple of special tools and precise measurements. You may want to get yourself a manual or pay someone to install it properly for you, or just leave it out. If you're not going to install it properly, it will be MUCH better to leave it out.

orlando
03-14-2010, 01:23 AM
deleted mine in ms6 but do not like the vibrations, tried to reinstalled but acts the same. Is there proper way to install this?

Blendercloud
03-15-2010, 02:41 PM
deleted mine in ms6 but do not like the vibrations, tried to reinstalled but acts the same. Is there proper way to install this?

Read the post above your last post.

BoostedSpd6
03-16-2010, 07:56 PM
and that is the reason why you have to consider all factors before you install or delete parts like the B/S delete, sometimes they have to be installed properly to work correctly again and that isnt always easy, i suggest having a professional install the Balance Shaft for you.

jonscapri
03-27-2010, 12:13 PM
You can remove it, and if you want to reinstall it you have to keep in mind the shims, and of course the right time with the rest of the engine. There should be a lock pin to hold the crank, cams, and balance shaft in place while you put the timing chain back in place.

As for the 2010 MS3 it's pretty much the exact same 2.3 DISI engine that came out in 06 with some minor updates to the design to improve durability.

I wouldn't remove since the engines aren't really balanced from the factory. If you are doing an engine build, and you get the engine blueprinted, and balanced you should be okay. Also keep in mind that if you upgrade to a more solid engine/ trans mount it'll really vibrate bad, and make the car not so much fun to drive.

If you leave the balance shaft, and upgrade mounts you'll hear more noise form the engine/ trans, and well as feel for vibrations in general. It's all really up to preferences, and if you want to keep the car comfortable to drive or make it a weekend racer pretty much.

KrGsMrNKusinagi
03-30-2010, 06:13 AM
long story short its a counterweight put in to eliminate (or decrease) vibrations that inline 4 cylinders are notorious for.

reading helps.
tunersteve provided some good links.

True but not all 4 cylinders :) do hondas have these counterweights

FORZDA 1
03-30-2010, 08:15 AM
True but not all 4 cylinders :) do hondas have these counterweights

Geez, the Noise/Vibration/Harshness (NVH) "engineers" think that any 4cyl larger than 2.0L needs a counterbalaner setup to reduce NVH. If there is a 4cyl honduh larger than 2.0, it will have a balance shaft....

tunersteve
03-31-2010, 09:10 AM
Just to clear things up, the whole assembly is ~18 lbs., but the rotating portion is only a part of that. Don't be fooled. Yes, it'll take all that weight out of the motor, but its only 4-5 lbs. that is tied to the crank via helical gear to spin.

I still recommend that if you're considering this mod, you do your homework. Don't go in and half-ass the job and not know what you're getting yourself into.

FORZDA 1
03-31-2010, 01:32 PM
......I still recommend that if you're considering this mod, you do your homework. Don't go in and half-ass the job and not know what you're getting yourself into.


Never seen a better quote!

dougefresh_
04-04-2010, 12:56 AM
Never seen a better quote!

Oh, I've seen a better quote:


Hey douche, I'm trying to help you here. How many responses have you had over on MSF? They aren't even taking the time to look at your logs after the first time you put up 10 or so useless logs. How many viable response did you get on that one?

LMAO!!! J/K buddy! I think I've made some slight progress since then, no? ;)

....thought you might get a lol outta that!!

FORZDA 1
04-04-2010, 09:57 AM
Oh, I've seen a better quote:



LMAO!!! J/K buddy! I think I've made some slight progress since then, no? ;)

....thought you might get a lol outta that!!

LOL!!!! Yep, that was one of my "well WTF?" posts and yep, you have come a LONG way (in a short time) since then. :D

dougefresh_
04-04-2010, 11:33 AM
LOL!!!! Yep, that was one of my "well WTF?" posts and yep, you have come a LONG way (in a short time) since then. :D

Thank you kind sir. Now read that damn thing I wrote about OL/part throttle!! lol

speedkouture
04-14-2010, 06:07 PM
Im having a hell of a time getting my oil pan on.. anybody have any tips!!!???

Blendercloud
04-14-2010, 06:26 PM
Im having a hell of a time getting my oil pan on.. anybody have any tips!!!???

If you're having issues with clearance of the surroundings, try using a jack to lift the engine and transmission a half inch or so.

speedkouture
04-14-2010, 06:28 PM
well, it just dosen't seem like the oil pan wants to fit.. it's almost as if its about 2mm too large on the serp. belt side.

dougefresh_
06-14-2010, 02:49 PM
On a more serious note, thanks to the OP for this "How To BSD" thread! Good stuff. Been thinking about doing this.... still thinking, lol.

KrGsMrNKusinagi
07-14-2010, 10:16 AM
Geez, the Noise/Vibration/Harshness (NVH) "engineers" think that any 4cyl larger than 2.0L needs a counterbalaner setup to reduce NVH. If there is a 4cyl honduh larger than 2.0, it will have a balance shaft....

So a prelude 2.2 vtec has them? I dont know Just asking. I know Honda has some tight tolerances on there motors thats about it :(

FORZDA 1
07-14-2010, 10:59 AM
So a prelude 2.2 vtec has them?.....

Yes..... Pretty much ALL Honduh engines have balance shafts to allow them to run so "smoothly".....

The presence of a balance shaft has NOTHING to do with the "tolerances" in the engine design/assembly and EVERYTHING to do with consumer perceptions of "quality" as it relates to smooth, silent running of the engine. This is also the primary reason why so many cars now have the plastic "covers" over the engines, to reduce engine noise heard by the idiot consumer.

KrGsMrNKusinagi
07-15-2010, 02:17 AM
Yes..... Pretty much ALL Honduh engines have balance shafts to allow them to run so "smoothly".....

The presence of a balance shaft has NOTHING to do with the "tolerances" in the engine design/assembly and EVERYTHING to do with consumer perceptions of "quality" as it relates to smooth, silent running of the engine. This is also the primary reason why so many cars now have the plastic "covers" over the engines, to reduce engine noise heard by the idiot consumer.

I just figured it would also help the reliability. I mean if your motors vibrating does this not cause undue stress to the internals?

just wondering

ajv915
07-15-2010, 07:20 AM
I just figured it would also help the reliability. I mean if your motors vibrating does this not cause undue stress to the internals?

just wondering

pfft no, vibration never causes any kind of fatigue failures in anything...ever. why would you ever think that?

Blendercloud
07-15-2010, 09:18 AM
I just figured it would also help the reliability. I mean if your motors vibrating does this not cause undue stress to the internals?

just wondering

In some cases, especially on smaller displacement engines, the added weight tied to the rotating mass is more stress than small vibrations the engine might have.

This is really old technology and as casting, forging, and machining procedures (and materials) have improved over time it is less and less of an issue.

ajv915
07-15-2010, 10:08 AM
In some cases, especially on smaller displacement engines, the added weight tied to the rotating mass is more stress than small vibrations the engine might have.

I think Mr. Tesla would disagree with that. A very small weight vibrating at the right frequency can have a pretty big effect.

Blendercloud
07-15-2010, 11:17 AM
I think Mr. Tesla would disagree with that. A very small weight vibrating at the right frequency can have a pretty big effect.

Given the scope of a small displacement engine and understanding its environment, even Tesla would have acknowledged the balance shaft's limitations related to the application.

KrGsMrNKusinagi
07-16-2010, 12:40 AM
pfft no, vibration never causes any kind of fatigue failures in anything...ever. why would you ever think that?

LOL are you being sarcastic..

StealthWyvern
07-16-2010, 01:52 AM
I think Mr. Tesla would disagree with that. A very small weight vibrating at the right frequency can have a pretty big effect.


Given the scope of a small displacement engine and understanding its environment, even Tesla would have acknowledged the balance shaft's limitations related to the application.

This should be a good watch for you guys... Mythbusters - Tesla's Earthquake Machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-JyUhdcrzk&feature=related

tunersteve
07-16-2010, 06:48 AM
Let's keep this thread clean and not go off-topic with chit-chat.

StealthWyvern
07-16-2010, 08:04 PM
Let's keep this thread clean and not go off-topic with chit-chat.

Please explain to me how its completely off topic. We were talking about how the extra vibrations from removings the balance shaft might/can cause extra wear and tear on the engine. Thus leading to a proven example how a vibration at the right frequency can have an affect on the engine via a link on the Tesla's theory which is still related to the fact that removing the balance shaft might do undo harm to the engine.

tunersteve
07-16-2010, 09:28 PM
Please explain to me how its completely off topic. We were talking about how the extra vibrations from removings the balance shaft might/can cause extra wear and tear on the engine. Thus leading to a proven example how a vibration at the right frequency can have an affect on the engine via a link on the Tesla's theory which is still related to the fact that removing the balance shaft might do undo harm to the engine.

A how-to thread should be more technical, and address the original issue or installation, not a place for chit-chat because you don't know where else to put it. While vibrations is the only thing that you're talking about with relevance to the original topic, the rest is BS chatter.

That way, when someone wants to consider/do this mod, they don't have to sift through 10 pages of useless shit, and can see any questions that might arise after the OP posted the thread.

FORZDA 1
07-16-2010, 10:31 PM
I just figured it would also help the reliability. I mean if your motors vibrating does this not cause undue stress to the internals?

just wondering

No, this "balancer" has no positive effects on reliability. In fact, in modified, high output engines, it places undue axial loads on the crankshaft thrust bearing and can be detrimental to reliability. Most other OEMs use external belts or internal chains to drive the balancer shaft.

I don't know how many times I need to post it, but ALL balancer shafts in consumer cars are solely for passenger comfort/perception. Maybe it would help those ignorant souls to do an web search for balance shaft...

greg08
07-28-2010, 01:53 AM
One question from me i would like answered by someone with knowledge on this topic. comfort out of the way. If i plan on having a reliable 350awhp ms6, would i be better off with a BS or a Windage tray/baffle?

BoostedSpd6
07-28-2010, 01:57 AM
Take it out, Put in the F2 Mazda BS Delete. go with PTP's windage tray. enjoy 7 quarts of oil and not blowing cylinder 3. call it a day.:)

FORZDA 1
07-28-2010, 10:21 AM
One question from me i would like answered by someone with knowledge on this topic. comfort out of the way. If i plan on having a reliable 350awhp ms6, would i be better off with a BS or a Windage tray/baffle?


I'm not sure by how your question is worded, but I recommend the F2 BSDelete for sure and I prefer the F2 tray, but either is better than none with the BSD.

ERABBIT23
09-10-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm not sure by how your question is worded, but I recommend the F2 BSDelete for sure and I prefer the F2 tray, but either is better than none with the BSD.

Where can I find the F2 BSDelete kit with the F2 windage tray and how much is it. Also this takes 7 Quarts of oil after removed correct?