Installed MS Lowering Springs

[Silver Ecstasy]

I bought these earlier this summer, anticipating this as something i'd install next summer. Well, I can't have a set of parts just staring at me! So we decided to attempt this, especially after buying a new air compressor and air tools.

For those who don't know, the MAZDASPEED Lowering Springs are progressive springs rather than linear springs. Infact, they're considered the same as the Eibach ProKit springs. Being Progressive will mean that they will actually ride a little better while still being able to perform harder cornering better than stock.

A picture for comparison of the rear springs:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0022.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0023.jpg

The kit also comes with camber links for correction in rear alignment, but those were unfortunately not installed. I will install those later once I have access to a lift at my dad's shop.

Here's some before and after shots (they may not show a whole lot of improvement yet - the car hadn't moved, and the springs probably hadn't even settled at all. There was less room for the jack to come out from underneath the rockers, that's for sure.)

(pictures were brightened for more accurate portrayal of wheel gap)
BEFORE - REAR
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0020.jpg
AFTER - REAR
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0037.jpg

BEFORE - FRONT
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0017.jpg
AFTER - FRONT
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/silverecstasy/MS%20Lowering%20Springs/DSC_0038.jpg

I had some help from a more experienced local MI mazdaspeeder (Mazdaspeedster3). A couple PITA's we experienced:

-Endlink stuck (driver's side endlink bolt is totally stuck - WILL NOT come off, so i'm stuck buying a new one now)
-Trying to figure out which way the rear springs go (super compressed side up towards the top? Or bottom?)
-Realizing my exhaust leak is still there from my MSCBE -- there's soot near the stupid clamp involved in the install. Hasn't caused a problem though.
-Watching Bill tirelessly hammer away at my front steering knuckles (that took forever)
-HATING KOBALT AIR TOOLS (we seriously got screwed with a fucked up impact wrench that fought us the entire time. Made using the impact wrench WAY harder than it needed to. It would just vent air through the exhaust of the impact gun, rather than torque the living hell out of the spring compressor bolts. Took some serious patience and coaxing...what a joke!)
-Trying to properly line up the front springs then uncompress them and they uncompress wrong (top hat not lining up properly.)

Here's a question for those who have done this install before:
On the rear springs, MAZDASPEED is stamped on each spring. Facing upright, the spring has the tighter coils up top and the lighter coils on the bottom. Is this the proper way to install these springs? With the fronts, you can't screw it up. Small top, big bottom of the spring, it'll only fit one way. We installed them so they're facing upright, which positioned the spring with the more stretched coils towards the bottom, and the closely packed coils up top. Is this correct??

Otherwise, this really truely was a great mod. It really balanced the car out and felt "even". Steering felt more direct and precise rather than a bit of float involved. The car was flat and secure. I love it!

[wassup61]

rears are tighter up top, wider at the bottom

[CWPspeed3]

Well glad you were able to get them on, even tho eibach says theirs dont settle they do so your car will probably drop a little more in the next month. lets see some full car pics! does this mean your door moldings are coming off now?

[Silver Ecstasy]

LOL yeah I'd say they are coming off soon!!

[Nliiitend1]

For those who don't know, the MAZDASPEED Lowering Springs are progressive springs rather than linear springs. Infact, they're considered the same as the Eibach ProKit springs. Being Progressive will mean that they will actually ride a little better while still being able to perform harder cornering better than stock.


Just because a spring is progressive rather than linear that doesn't translate to "being able to perfrom harder cornering better than stock."

Without even getting into the part about your overall spring rates changing, changing from linear to progressive simply means that your spings will allow small, high-frequency movements of the wheels in relation to the car's chassis more easily and the springs get progressively higher in spring rate as they become more compressed, rather than following a linear rate of compressibility.

This does not always lead to better handling, especially when nothing is done to address the changes that such alterations in spring rate require of the damper valving.

;)

[Silver Ecstasy]

(squinty)

Well, they ride better and handle great so - thanks!

(I just really wanted to use that smiley)

[binhsterbinh]

I ride the same setup (2-3k so far). You can definitely tell they're progressive as they absorb small road imperfections rather well. Then when I hit a medium sized dip, I can tell the springs become much stiffer. On medium to large bumps, I think the MS3 struts aren't dampening enough and the ride can get quite choppy/jarring at times on the rough Seattle roadways. I also notice that on the portions of I-5 highway where there are a lot of concrete connection junctions, the struts can't keep up going 65mph. My HID cutoff bounces up and down like crazy. I think the stock MS3 struts (mine have 9k miles on them - 3k with the springs) are on the soft side honestly for these springs. I'm curious to see how long the struts will hold up. Contemplating Koni Yellows now though anyways. Have to feed my craze although this is just the GF's car. I daily drive an A-Spec suspension TL and those highway bumps are barely noticeable after I installed the A-Spec factory tuned sport suspension.

[Nliiitend1]

Hell, the OEM dampers are on the soft side for even the OEM springs, so I can't say that any of that comes as a shock. (lol2)

[justanothermp5]

If the air tool just vented air then the compressor wasnt pushing enough psi
i have a kobalt impact and it works great, i have a 150psi compressor though so i just turn it all the way to 120-140 and it rips shit off no problem lol

[goldwing2000]

Rule of thumb for spring installation: words go right-side-up (so you can read them).

That's right from Eibach (http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/09258.1.2723107089400002552) (4th from the bottom).

[Silver Ecstasy]

Thanks Kane. I was just rolling the dice of logic and hoping that was right.

The max psi on the air gun said 90psi but when we turned the pressure up, itd work better. Either way, it doesn't have enough torque at all (350 ft-lbs) because it would take serious coaxing to compress the springs and decompress them.

Koni makes struts for our cars? I was always under the assumption there isn't a whole lot of after market available for strut choices.

[Design]

The kit also comes with camber links for correction in rear alignment, but those were unfortunately not installed. I will install those later once I have access to a lift at my dad's shop.


You will find the camber link install the biggest pain. There's an evap pump that prevents removal of the passenger camber link bolt. Requires you to drop the subframe to move it out of the way (6 bolts + 1 screw I think). Much easier than trying to reach underneath and remove the darn thing by hand.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well I spoke with the dealership and they will align the car up for me, and if it requires those camber links, they are going to install it for me. So we'll see. But yeah i've heard that it is a gigantic PITA.

[CWPspeed3]

Well I spoke with the dealership and they will align the car up for me, and if it requires those camber links, they are going to install it for me. So we'll see. But yeah i've heard that it is a gigantic PITA.

have them put on your FSB at the same time then too, it might work out good that way.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Eh, I don't know about the FSB. I'm seriously considering selling it. There was someone on the other forum who was interested in buying it.

[binhsterbinh]

Koni makes struts for our cars? I was always under the assumption there isn't a whole lot of after market available for strut choices.

Koni has struts/shocks that work on both MS3/MZ3. They're rebound adjustable for the yellow sports. Then they have the FSD's which are suppose to auto adjust. Protege Garage and TH Motorsports both carry them. They're between $600-650 shipped. Many will argue that you mind as well go directly to full coilovers, but since we already have springs, it seems like this is the cheapest route and would offer the best ride comfort. Bilstein also makes shock/struts for the Mazda3 which are also great but aren't rebound adjustable.

[blue-sun]

Interested in how these will hold up with the stock struts.

what did you pay for the MS springs (if you don't mind me asking)

[Nliiitend1]

Interested in how these will hold up with the stock struts.

what did you pay for the MS springs (if you don't mind me asking)

The springs will hold up just fine...the stock struts, notsomuch... (lol2)

[blue-sun]

The springs will hold up just fine...the stock struts, notsomuch... (lol2)

that's what I meant. it's early and I'm at work. whatcanisay?

[Nliiitend1]

That's what I figured. ;)

[Silver Ecstasy]

You guys need to google search on the struts blowing myth.

Struts will wear regardless of spring. The oem dampers are garbage to begin with. If they blow, they blow. Regardless of the spring, they'd need to be exchanged anyhow.

[Nliiitend1]

You guys need to google search on the struts blowing myth.

Struts will wear regardless of spring. The oem dampers are garbage to begin with. If they blow, they blow. Regardless of the spring, they'd need to be exchanged anyhow.

First of all, that's bullshit. It's not a myth....

Secondly, it isn't just about whether they'll "blow."

They're simply not valved for a stiffer, lower spring, and will not perform properly with stiffer, lower springs regardless of whether or not they "blow."

Yes, the OEM dampers suck. That's not news to me. BUT, handicapping them further by pairing them with an even MORE inappropriate spring is not something I see as a wise choice.

That said, each to his own... ;)

[goldwing2000]

First of all, that's bullshit. It's not a myth....

Secondly, it isn't just about whether they'll "blow."

They're simply not valved for a stiffer, lower spring, and will not perform properly with stiffer, lower springs regardless of whether or not they "blow."

Yes, the OEM dampers suck. That's not news to me. BUT, handicapping them further by pairing them with an even MORE inappropriate spring is not something I see as a wise choice.

That said, each to his own... ;)

Hmm... that's odd. I have 115,000 miles on stock struts and an Eibach pro kit and they're doing just fine. (braindead

The stiffness and position of a spring have nothing to do with how quickly a strut will wear. Driving style and road conditions have more effect.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Thanks Kane! When I get home from work ill link that thread about struts.

[Nliiitend1]

Hmm... that's odd. I have 115,000 miles on stock struts and an Eibach pro kit and they're doing just fine. (braindead

The stiffness and position of a spring have nothing to do with how quickly a strut will wear. Driving style and road conditions have more effect.

All I can say is, ignorance is bliss...

And yes, the "stiffness and position of a spring" DOES have something to do with how fast a damper will wear. When a spring is underdamped, more oscillations occur in the damper and the seals wear out more quickly. The amount of force that is being distributed through the assembly when using a stiffer spring is also higher, which puts more stress on the entire assembly. And finally, when you force it into a lower static position, you're increasing the likelihood of bottoming out, which ALSO wears the damper's internals more quickly and can lead to premature failure...

[goldwing2000]

All I can say is, ignorance is bliss...

And yes, the "stiffness and position of a spring" DOES have something to do with how fast a damper will wear. When a spring is underdamped, more oscillations occur in the damper and the seals wear out more quickly. The amount of force that is being distributed through the assembly when using a stiffer spring is also higher, which puts more stress on the entire assembly. And finally, when you force it into a lower static position, you're increasing the likelihood of bottoming out, which ALSO wears the damper's internals more quickly and can lead to premature failure...

Ok, granted that if you have 1000kg springs on all four corners, you're going to have some issues but I think your teeth would rattle out before you noticed any strut problems.

MazdaSpeed/Eibach springs are nowhere near stiff enough to cause any appreciable difference in strut wear or number of damping occilations, much less enough to overstress the strut's physical structure.

And the lower static position is also almost irrelevant. As long as you keep the factory compression bumpers in place, you're not going to bottom out the dampers. Combine that with the fact that Eibach springs are progressive, they will actually *prevent* you from bottoming out better than the factory springs due to the increased force as the spring compresses.

And for the record, I'm far from ignorant about my own struts. I've had them off the car a number of times to monitor their condition and check for damage.

[mr_mazda329]

Hell, the OEM dampers are on the soft side for even the OEM springs, so I can't say that any of that comes as a shock. (lol2)

Totally agree with you on this. The car bounces bad enough. the car should follow the road and not bounce, yet not bottom out either

[Nliiitend1]

Ok, granted that if you have 1000kg springs on all four corners, you're going to have some issues but I think your teeth would rattle out before you noticed any strut problems.

MazdaSpeed/Eibach springs are nowhere near stiff enough to cause any appreciable difference in strut wear or number of damping occilations, much less enough to overstress the strut's physical structure.

And the lower static position is also almost irrelevant. As long as you keep the factory compression bumpers in place, you're not going to bottom out the dampers. Combine that with the fact that Eibach springs are progressive, they will actually *prevent* you from bottoming out better than the factory springs due to the increased force as the spring compresses.

And for the record, I'm far from ignorant about my own struts. I've had them off the car a number of times to monitor their condition and check for damage.

I disagree.

[goldwing2000]

Fair enough. I was done arguing anyway. (idhitit)

[Silver Ecstasy]

So i've been getting a mysterious clunk since i've installed the springs. Specifically the driver's front. They've checked all the bolts and everything is tight. We noticed when the suspension was on full droop, the springs could be twisted around by hand while the strut was staying in place. They weren't sure it was supposed to do that, but said it may cause the problem.

After using the impact gun on the top 3 bolts, it actually seemed to fix the clunking, although I still hear it ever so slightly now. It's an empty popping on slow speed impacts.

[Nliiitend1]

Is the strut topnut (the big one) fully tightened/torqued?

It could also be your strut bearing...those things wear out relatively easily. (dunno)

Have you also checked your swaybar endlinks?

[Silver Ecstasy]

Checked everything. Dealer hit the top bolts with an impact gun and that seemede to make the most difference in eliminating any clunks.

[///M Compact]

After using the impact gun on the top 3 bolts, it actually seemed to fix the clunking, although I still hear it ever so slightly now. It's an empty popping on slow speed impacts.

That's the sound my LF strut made. The noise got louder and the dealer diagnosed it as a bad strut.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Gotcha..it was like a low hollow pop?

[///M Compact]

Gotcha..it was like a low hollow pop?

Exactly. It first became noticeable driving over speed bumps at low speed- but it gradually became louder and occurred more often.

[ALIEN3T]

Did a car with Koni FSD. made a popping noise when turning the wheel. Came to find out the top mount was bad. we replaced it. noise was gone!

[Nliiitend1]

That's the sound my LF strut made. The noise got louder and the dealer diagnosed it as a bad strut.


Gotcha..it was like a low hollow pop?


Exactly. It first became noticeable driving over speed bumps at low speed- but it gradually became louder and occurred more often.

I resisted the tempation to offer that suggestion, mostly because I just figured you'd take it as me just trying to pound into your head that "stock dampers + lower, stiffer springs = bad news."

I'm glad someone did mention it though, because this is a definite possibility... :(

[Silver Ecstasy]

Nah man, I'm not going to take things so personally.

However, i've literally only had the springs on for about 300 miles max. It seems a tad too soon. Why/how would the top mount go bad? How is that caused?

[Nliiitend1]

Nah man, I'm not going to take things so personally.

However, i've literally only had the springs on for about 300 miles max. It seems a tad too soon. Why/how would the top mount go bad? How is that caused?

Well, considering the seemingly lackluster QC they had on these OEM dampers (as evidenced by the multiple OEM damper failures - with even OEM springs - mentioned on the various forums) the springs could have merely been the "straw that broke the camel's back" so-to-speak with that one marginally defective strut... (dunno)

As far as the top strut bearings go, they're basically a wear item as far as I'm concerned, as it's just a simple plastic bearing that over time wears out (and typically wears out with more frequency when stiffer suspension components than stock are used) and it's possible in your case that one of yours was simply subpar to begin with, or perhaps was damaged slightly during the teardown/reinstallation that occured when you changed your springs.

Previously with my Focuses, it got to the point of where whenever I changed out the suspension (which uses the same basic type of bearing in the front) I simply bought new ones and replaced them since they were relatively cheap. That way I new they were brand new and weren't likely to be the culprit if things made noise or didn't seem right once I got it all back together.

:)

[Silver Ecstasy]

You're talking about the nut that holds the top mount in? That one wears?

[Nliiitend1]

You're talking about the nut that holds the top mount in? That one wears?


No.

There is a bearing (Mazda probably refers to it as a "bushing") that allows the strut/spring asssembly to turn when you turn the car's steering wheel.

It's #8 in this picture:

http://www.trademotion.com/schematics/5/5417370.gif

[Silver Ecstasy]

It seems to turn just fine when its on the lift. Hmm..its definitely an idea!

[Nliiitend1]

It seems to turn just fine when its on the lift. Hmm..its definitely an idea!


When on the lift, the bearing is unloaded and is likely not to exhibit symptoms even if it is shot.

Once the weight of the car is on it though, things change.

Also, a "failed" strut bearing can usually still physically turn without a problem. It just does it with a lot more noise and a bit less smoothness and precision (when loaded with the car's weight, that is).

[vegas79]

I've had the MS springs on my speed3 for about 10K miles. They do settle and get smoother as the miles go on (front more than rear). I had a clunking noise/pop upon initial installation but reseating the springs took care of that issue.

Aside from the initial issue the springs have been troublefree. I am also using the original OEM shocks.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well we diagnosed what was the problem. Driver front strut mount and bushing were shot. Fixed and it was all good!

[Nliiitend1]

Well we diagnosed what was the problem. Driver front strut mount and bushing were shot. Fixed and it was all good!

Good to hear. (thumb)

[Silver Ecstasy]

What I forgot to mention is, in light of everything that was going on, I decided to uninstall the springs lol. My intentions with the lowering springs were to eliminate the highway bounce and gain some improvements out of the suspension overall. What ended up happening is, it actually made the bouncing more obvious because you're lower to the ground now, so the bounces are still there, only it's louder and harder.

So, when we diagnosed what the problem was, I ended up re-installing my stock rear springs and had them re-install the stock front springs after they replaced the top strut mounts and bushings.

Riding around stock, it made me realize that the stock suspension is actually set up pretty well and that if I do decide to improve later, it will strictly be dampers.