View Full Version : Timing belt replacement on 1.8 (2.0) Proteges
Hi guys...
First of all, sorry for my bad english and spelling mistakes...(boom07)
Ok, although the belts may look fine, the time and mileage do their part.. the material weakens, micro cracks appear, and more importantly, both the belt idler and the belt tensioner bearings wear out, as well as the water pump bearings and it's shaft gaskets... so after 100 000 Km (60 000 miles) all above mentioned should be replaced... The water pump as well, coz, although not being powered by the timing belt on Proteges, it is prone to failure (bearing failures and/or leaks), but to replace it, the entire timing belt system has to be removed first to gain access to the pump... so that sucks!
I have just changed mine, and, well, you do not need any special tools except you might encounter a problem of not being able do undo the crankshaft pulley bolt, which is difficult to do if you do not have the SST (special service tool). (air tools will not work on this bolt, trust me :) ).
However, by having some average toolbox items, it is quite easy to do it without the SST.
well, I do not have any of my own project pictures, but I will paste some from the net.
So, here it goes:
1. Jack up your front passenger-side wheel and remove it.
2. Remove the splash cover behind the wheel, exposing the crankshaft pulley.
3. Remove the splash guard from below the front of the car, exposing the bottom of the radiator.
4. Unhook the camshaft position sensor, spark plug wires and spark plugs, and remove the valve cover.
This is where you are so far:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8770/valves.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/valves.jpg/)
5. To remove the two serpentine belts, undo the bolts holding the PS pump, and do the same with the alternator, (it could be tricky to access the alternator form above, so try from underneath the car). Each of them has three bolts: Swivel bolt, jack bolt, and a locking bolt. First, just untighten the swivel bolt, then the locking bolt, and then undo the jack bolt to release the tension on belt.
Here's an example on a P/s pump, and the same principle is on an alternator...
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2000/pspump.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/i/pspump.jpg/)
RED COLOR: swivel bolt
GREEN COLOR: Jack bolt
BLUE COLOR: locking bolt
Here's the much better picture and more detailed explanation on this matter ( courtesy of Brcobrem )
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pWaEj-GYOMEmj-3kyACBEN2s391g0MbpbtjJfK7KRbmycD4J0uSvgVwREttneaym 52Ge_kMi1HErlk4HI8IUTvw/power_steering_pump_bolts.jpg
The red insert shows the power steering unit's swivel bolt that you see on top of the engine (this gets loosened first, and tightened last). The blue circle shows the lock bolt loosened but not falling out (this get loosened 2nd and tightened this after tensioning with the jack bolt). The green circle at the top of the pic shows the rear of the jack bolt. The green circle in the green insert shows the front of the jack bolt (this gets loosened thirdly and tightened appropriately for belt tensioning before tightening the lock bolt).
6. Loosen the mentioned above, and remove the two serpentine belts (P/S-A/C-C/S) and (Alternator-C/S-W/P).
7. Now comes the tricky part: Undoing the crankshaft bolt...
Now, if you try to undo it, (I believe 21 mm socket and wrench), you will find that the engine will turn as you try to turn your wrench, so you will need to find a way to block the pulley and stop it from spinning.
There are two threaded holes on the crankshaft pulley (C/S) with M8 (8 mm ) threads... What you need to do is to take two bolts you had lying around your garage or in your tool box (or buy them at your local hardware store), thread them all the way into the pulley, find a peace of metal pipe, a block of wood, a wooden board, a two-by-two, or something, wedge it somehow (I leave it to your own creativity and nventivity) between the bolts and the suspension arm or a floor or somewhere on the chassis, so the pulley won't turn. And with the help of some elbow grease, undo the bolt.
Now a little trick. The crankshaft bolt has to be tightened back to approx. 160 Nm of torque. It could be done by using a big old nasty torque wrench, but, I use a little trick: Before I undo the bolt, I use a magic marker to mark the position of the bolt (on bolt and pulley), so when I put it back on, I tighten it until the marks are aligned, ergo no need for a torque wrench...
8. Undo the bolts holding the plastic timing cover, and remove the cower. It has two pieces and the plastic is very brittle, so PLEASE DO BE CAREFUL. Upper one can be removed, while lower one has to wait for the crankshaft pulley to be removed first (see nr. 11)
Now, you have your timing belt exposed, and you se your cam shaft pulleys and all.
9. In order to remove the belt, you need to take of the engine mount, so first take another jack, put it below the engine oil pan, take a block of wood and put it between the oil pan and the jack, and lift the jack just enough until it BARELY starts to lift the engine! (a couple of millimeters, or 1/8th of an inch). The jack will support the engine when you remove the mount.
10. Unbolt the mount and remove it.
Here's where you are so far:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8899/cams.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/cams.jpg/)
11. Remove the crankshaft pulley (DO NOT use a puller, coz it will damage the pulley, rather wiggle it out by hand and be patient), and be careful not to lose the position pin.
After the pulley has been removed, you will see the timing pulley behind, with a NOTCH on it (V shaped), that indicates the position.
Now, the notch on the CRANK SHAFT has to FACE UPWARDS, (aligned to a mark on the engine block) while the two notches (lines actually) on the CAMSHAFT pulleys (gears) have to be horizontal, inwards, next to each other. (as it can bee seen on the picture below)
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5408/camspos.th.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/camspos.jpg/)
12. Put the crankshaft bolt back into the crankshaft, tighten it BY HAND so you can use a ratchet to turn the engine, and using a wrench slowly turn the crankshaft clockwise until you get the marks aligned (as they should be), so it will be a lot easier once you take the old belt off, to realign the system for the new belt...
13. There is a spring holding the belt tensioner in place. Unhook it, (be careful not to lose it, and remember how it goes back on), and unbolt and remove the tensioner.
14. Unbolt and remove the idler.
15. Remove the belt.
(now, you are a half way through)!
16. Go underneath the radiator, and you will see the coolant drain plug. Drain the coolant. (I guess you know how to do it...)
17. Unbolt the four water pump pulley bolts and remove the pulley.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7849/pumppulley.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/i/pumppulley.jpg/)
18. Unbolt the water pump bolts (5 of them), and remove the pump! (some remaining coolant will leak, that is no prob.)
(Sometimes, the pump gasket will hold the pump stuck to the engine block, so tap it with a soft-tip mallet a bit or gently pry it loose, if it is stuck on...)
19. Clean the sealing surfaces, and put the new pump on. Use a torque wrench to tighten the pump bolts (approx 20 Nm of torque)
20. Put the new idler roller on, and tighten it.
21. Put the new tensioner and tighten it. (do not put the tension spring on yet!!!) This type of tensioners used on 1.8 and 2.0 proteges operates by a spring tension and auto-adjustment feature, meaning that even if it is tightened all the way, it will still swivel back and forth, as the spring pushes on it against the belt...
22. Check, recheck and again RECHECK the align marks on the crankshaft and camshafts, and put the new belt on. It will be a bit of a struggle to get it on right, but be persistent. (rotation direction is often marked on the belt, if not, then the direction is the same as the reading direction of the words printed on the belt).
How to put a belt on:
Start by putting it on the crankshaft pulley, then, go over the idler and put it on the exhaust camshaft, then onto intake camshaft, and while opening the tensioner (no spring on it yet), slide it under.
After the belt is on, again check, re check and RE CHECK the marks, and if all ok:
23. Put the tension spring back on.
24. Do 4 turns of the crankshaft with your hands using a hand wrench, and recheck if everything spins ok. Check the belt, markings, belt sideways movement, slack...
25. Now, start putting everything back in reverse order.
26. as you finish the assembly, putting the mount back on, don't forget you still have the jack underneath the engine!!!
27. Replace the new serpentine belts, and tighten them. the general "rule-of-thumb" when tightening serpentine belts (using a jack bolt) is that it is tightened just right when on the middle of the longest belt-straight, you can twist the belt approx. 90 degrees with your fingers.
Do not over tighten the belts, coz you will ruin the bearings!!!
28. Refill the coolant and bleed the system... (I guess you know how it's done).
again, recheck everything and start the engine up.
Let it idle for 10 minutes or so, and then, recheck everything. Wait for the engine to warm up and start the cooling vent.
Check for leaks around the water pump.
And, that's it!!!
And of course, this is just a how-to help, I can not take any liability in any damage caused by this text.
Cheers!
slavrenz
07-31-2009, 01:54 PM
Man, this is a great write-up! This has been long-awaited by many of us who are getting ready to change our timing belts. Mods, sticky this (and maybe post a link to it in the general How-To forum!)!
To the OP, did you have any trouble getting the water pump pulley bolts out? And did you try air tools on the crank pulley bolt before you had to use the prying method?
As for the English, I honestly can't tell. I just noticed in the last sentence that the word "legibility" should be "liability"
Nice work, man.
Man, this is a great write-up! This has been long-awaited by many of us who are getting ready to change our timing belts. Mods, sticky this (and maybe post a link to it in the general How-To forum!)!
To the OP, did you have any trouble getting the water pump pulley bolts out? And did you try air tools on the crank pulley bolt before you had to use the prying method?
As for the English, I honestly can't tell. I just noticed in the last sentence that the word "legibility" should be "liability"
Nice work, man.
Hello there... "liability" it is (smoke)
Water pump pulley bolts were a piece of cake... You should crack them loose while the belts are still on, and later, just undo them off completely...
Well, I tried a couple of air tools on the crankshaft pulley bolt, but non of them would even move the darn thing...
I guess the professional size air impact gun would work, but I had none handy...
slavrenz
08-04-2009, 01:32 PM
The reason I asked about the air tools is because I have an electric impact wrench that can torque up to 450 ft-lbs, and I was thinking of giving this a shot when I do my timing belt.
I would also like to change my crankshaft and camshaft oil seals, but I'm a little nervous about removing the pulleys and irreparably messing up the timing (irreparable as in I'd have to tow it to a shop to get fixed).
The reason I asked about the air tools is because I have an electric impact wrench that can torque up to 450 ft-lbs, and I was thinking of giving this a shot when I do my timing belt.
I would also like to change my crankshaft and camshaft oil seals, but I'm a little nervous about removing the pulleys and irreparably messing up the timing (irreparable as in I'd have to tow it to a shop to get fixed).
OK, it won't hurt to give it a shot. 350ft-lbs of torque should be able to undo the bolt, but then again, you have to tighten it back to 160 Nm, so you have to use a torque wrench (or my magic marker technique) so this way or the other, you have to block the pulley from spinning.
Well, have no worries about messing up your timing, well here's why:
Crankshaft pulley (both serpentine and timing belt pulley) has an idiot-proof notch that holds a pin that goes into the crankshaft notch. So even if you wanted to, you couldn't mess it up.
The same thing with the cam shafts...
You can not put them back wrong. (just mark which one goes where, and it's orientation... etc) but as far as the timing orientation is concerned, there is no possibility of an error.
Just be careful how you block your camshaft it self while undoing the camshaft pulley bolt, (I don't remember the size, but use a fork wrench or open end wrench however you call it, and put it on the camshaft between two lobes, there should be a "squared" place just for that purpose), if not, just wedge a flat head screwdriver through one of the pulley holes while undoing the bolt...
And be careful when putting the new oil seals, not to put them crooked, or to hit them or scratch them...
slavrenz
08-05-2009, 11:38 AM
OK, it won't hurt to give it a shot. 350ft-lbs of torque should be able to undo the bolt, but then again, you have to tighten it back to 160 Nm, so you have to use a torque wrench (or my magic marker technique) so this way or the other, you have to block the pulley from spinning.
Well, have no worries about messing up your timing, well here's why:
Crankshaft pulley (both serpentine and timing belt pulley) has an idiot-proof notch that holds a pin that goes into the crankshaft notch. So even if you wanted to, you couldn't mess it up.
The same thing with the cam shafts...
You can not put them back wrong. (just mark which one goes where, and it's orientation... etc) but as far as the timing orientation is concerned, there is no possibility of an error.
Just be careful how you block your camshaft it self while undoing the camshaft pulley bolt, (I don't remember the size, but use a fork wrench or open end wrench however you call it, and put it on the camshaft between two lobes, there should be a "squared" place just for that purpose), if not, just wedge a flat head screwdriver through one of the pulley holes while undoing the bolt...
And be careful when putting the new oil seals, not to put them crooked, or to hit them or scratch them...
Thanks for the tips! I'm at 103,000 miles right now, so this is something I will probably be attempting around November.
zuku26
08-08-2009, 05:02 PM
sub for AC belt removal
sub for AC belt removal
Huh???
slavrenz
08-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Huh???
I think he just likes your How-To ;)
KZL_99ES
08-19-2009, 08:19 AM
sub for AC belt removal
i just removed the whole a/c system a month ago...i keep on meaning to write a how-to... but never get around to it... i'll definitely try to get one up this week then!
and great how-to on the timing belt here! i'm starting to get a ticking for the first couple of minutes when i start the car...so i think my idler is going bad, i have just over 113k on her and don't think the anything has been changed since i bought it at 56k and i doubt the guy who sold it would've spent money to change it if he was just going to sell it right after...
anywho... i definitely need to get on both of the above!
jonnyp86
09-02-2009, 12:09 AM
easier way to get the crankshaft pulley off is to, put your car into 5th gear if its a 5-speed, and take two screwdrivers and put them into the middle of the rotors on the inside where the air slots are. by doing this it keeps the engine from spinning, its alot easier then using bolts on the crank pulley.
just watch out when you put the timing belt on you MAKE SURE ALL THE ALIGNMENT MARKS ARE LINED UP TOGETHER, IF NOT AND YOU PUT EVERYTHING BACK TOGETHER YOU JUST WASTED YOUR TIME, TRUST ME I KNOW.
easier way to get the crankshaft pulley off is to, put your car into 5th gear if its a 5-speed, and take two screwdrivers and put them into the middle of the rotors on the inside where the air slots are. by doing this it keeps the engine from spinning, its alot easier then using bolts on the crank pulley.
...
Well, I wouldn't recommend it... Here's why:
The bolt needs approx 160 Nm or torque to be tightened properly...
That said, it takes way more than 160 Nm of torque to undo the bolt, especially when rusted and seized in after years and years of engine use... So lets guess: 200Nm? (wow) - OK!
Well 200 Nm is A LOT of torque, especially if we know that the 2.0 liter engine can give approx 170 Nm of max. torque.
Where am I going with this???
Well, by blocking the brake rotors, and forcing the bolt counterclockwise (against the transmission's normal direction) with torque greater then the engine's maximum, we put a GREAT deal of strain on:
Clutch, gears in the gearbox, diff, drive axles, CV joints...... Do you get where I am going with this?
Plus, the procedure can only be done om manuals...
just watch out when you put the timing belt on you MAKE SURE ALL THE ALIGNMENT MARKS ARE LINED UP TOGETHER, IF NOT AND YOU PUT EVERYTHING BACK TOGETHER YOU JUST WASTED YOUR TIME, TRUST ME I KNOW. ...
...that's why I mentioned, "check, check again, and recheck the marks"... :)
TeamMazda
09-08-2009, 09:20 PM
hey Great write-up,
I have a question about correctly timing, and installing the belt, I have the crankshaft pulley aligned with the arrow, the camshaft pulleys are also aligned, with the I and E at the top and the two timing mark lines aligned with the cylinder head, as indicated in the shop manual....
http://www.floptical.net/mazda/service_web/01-10a.PDF
I am having difficulty putting the belt on, and keeping the camshaft gears in place, once i align everything, I try to put the belt on, but one of the camshafts, or crankshaft rotates by a few millimetres,....
I am still working on it, currently i have the belt on, its perfectly aligned, with the tensioner/ider tight, but the tensioner is not pushing up against the belt very tight..... I have heard that even if the tensioner is tight, it will still apply pressure via the tensioner spring,... but not sure if it will all stay inline, or be timed correctly,
I have two questions:
1. What should be the position of the tensioner? all the way to the left, right, or center??
2. Will it make a difference if the crankshaft, or crankshafts are off by a millimetre or three...
Thanks very much
I have two questions:
1. What should be the position of the tensioner? all the way to the left, right, or center??
2. Will it make a difference if the crankshaft, or crankshafts are off by a millimetre or three...
Thanks very much
Hello there.
1. Well, it is irrelevant, the tensioner works by a spring loading action, meaning even when tightly bolted on, it will still move as the belt works against the spring. It is like a hinge, the center of the tentioner is hard-bolted to the block not moving at all, while the outer part of the tensioner along with the bearing - pivots around the center which is slightly offset hence the movement back and forth... So as long as it pushes against the belt, do not worry about the position. (for example, winter or summer temps contract or expand the belt in minor increments, hence the tentioner position changes a bit.)
2. Well, if the belt is a brand name (not some cheap Chinese one), and it it is nice and tight, ALL the markings are suppose to be exactly on a spot!
So, it is either you will skip a tooth (in which case you will miss approx. 3-5 mm of the markings) or you will get it on just right. There shouldn't be any difference. (unless you have performance after-sales cam gears w/ adjustable timing...)
Ok, so, if by any chance you miss a tooth, and decide to go with it, it will not ba a good idea, because firstly the valve timing will be interrupted (engine will have trouble breathing) and secondly, the engine takes the signal of the exhaust cam shaft sensor to induce correct timing, so as the cams are missaligned, the timing will be off synchro!
TeamMazda
09-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Gozz, thanks very much, i was hoping you would reply,.......
I now have the camgears and the crankshaft all lined-up properly.... the belt does have some slack, about 7mm back and forth between the two camgears at the top....
when i put the tensioner spring on, the belt moves a little and goes out of alignment on the crankshaft by about 3mm... you think this is normal, or should i do it again, ??
thanks
Gozz, thanks very much, i was hoping you would reply,.......
I now have the camgears and the crankshaft all lined-up properly.... the belt does have some slack, about 7mm back and forth between the two camgears at the top....
when i put the tensioner spring on, the belt moves a little and goes out of alignment on the crankshaft by about 3mm... you think this is normal, or should i do it again, ??
thanks
Hmmm,
It would be great if you could send me a pic or post it here, so I can see what's going on??
Well, it shouldn't matter how much tension is being put on the belt, coz down the line of : crankshaft ->idler->exhaust cam->intake cam, the line is fixed... So the markings should stay in place...
Hmm, only one possible cause:
Maybe you have left too much slack... on the line described above.
Excuse my MS Paint masterpiece, but on the left picture you do not have any slack on the described line (green), so no matter how much pressure the tensioner applies (black arrow), the markings should be ok.
On the picture on the right, you have left some slack (red lined side) with the markings aligned, so when you apply the tensioner pressure (black arrow) you pick up the slack, hence the misalignment...
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7486/78685113.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/78685113.jpg/)
And, yes, the belt movement of approx 7 mm (up-down) between the cams
is perfectly normal.
TeamMazda
09-10-2009, 08:45 AM
Hi, Thanks for the reply, I do have a little slack on the right side, opposite the tensioner, so maybe thats whats causing this slight misalignment, im going to take the belt off, and try it again a few times to get it right, i didnt think that the order of how the belt was put on was a big deal, but i guess it has to be, so im gonna do it again, thanks for ur guidance,
Hi, Thanks for the reply, I do have a little slack on the right side, opposite the tensioner, so maybe thats whats causing this slight misalignment, im going to take the belt off, and try it again a few times to get it right, i didnt think that the order of how the belt was put on was a big deal, but i guess it has to be, so im gonna do it again, thanks for ur guidance,
Glad to be of assistance!!!
TeamMazda
09-14-2009, 02:26 PM
Gozz, finished the car on the weekend, runs perfect, thanks for your "how to", saved me $500 in labour !! cheers
Gozz, finished the car on the weekend, runs perfect, thanks for your "how to", saved me $500 in labour !! cheers
Glad to hear that!!!! (friday)
KZL_99ES
09-18-2009, 07:54 PM
So I'm doing the timing belt and trying to take the crank pulley off... But I have the UR underdrive pulley and it doesn't have those two bolt holes like the stock one does, is there any way of removing a pulley that doesn't have those bolt holes???
So I'm doing the timing belt and trying to take the crank pulley off... But I have the UR underdrive pulley and it doesn't have those two bolt holes like the stock one does, is there any way of removing a pulley that doesn't have those bolt holes???
Hmmm, that's a hard one to figure out... (uhm)
Well, either try to use a powerful air impact tool, or you can try to crank the engine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgY3-cAelWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zu5g95gpqo
BUT you need to know what you are DOING!!!! (sparkplugs have to be taken out so there's no compression to ease the cranking..., etc)
or you can try and use a solid wrench (being solid means in one piece, like a tire stud wrench) and whack it with a hammer to try to unbolt it...
Or, just drill the darn two holes... (dunno)
But I really suggest using impact air wrench...
Well, come to think of it, scratch the written above... ->
The UR pulleys usually have at least several holes (openings) of some sort to shave off some weight like the three oval holes here:
http://www.modernperformance.com/dcx/ur_crankpulley_95-99.jpg
So take a huge flat head screwdriver, jam it through the hole against the engine block, and block the pulley from spinning... Yeah, there we go!!!!
KZL_99ES
09-19-2009, 09:14 AM
http://www.protegegarage.com/images/0208010.jpg
so this is the one that i have...now i do see that there some slots towards the back so i can see if there are those on mine, but unfortunately i do not think that mine has the same thing...
i will take out the spark plugs though, i never thought about the compression issue.
so the engine still turns when i have the car in any gear, is this normal???
thanks for all your help!
ill post again if i cannot figure anything out!
http://www.protegegarage.com/images/0208010.jpg
so this is the one that i have...now i do see that there some slots towards the back so i can see if there are those on mine, but unfortunately i do not think that mine has the same thing...
If you are thinking about the jagged (serrated) rim, don't mess with those spikes coz they are needed for the crank sensor to detect it's movement...
i will take out the spark plugs though, i never thought about the compression issue.
yeah, you put the gearbox in neutral, and if you decide to crank the engine to try and let the bolt loose, you will need all the power the electric starter has, so you do not want the compression to take all the power!!! Just be sure to crank it for just a second or so, coz the starter will have a hard time to turn, so it will be stressed and might burn out... Just do as they did in the Y/T video...
http://www.protegegarage.com/images/0208010.jpg
so the engine still turns when i have the car in any gear, is this normal???
thanks for all your help!
ill post again if i cannot figure anything out!
Yes, there is a flex and slack in the system, (it has to be that way, otherwise the system would snap if you dump the clutch or stall the engine)... the flex / slack is in the gears in the gearbox, shafts, clutch, dampers, so all added up, you can turn the crankshaft up to 360 degrees, while barely getting 1 degree on your wheels!
But as you continue rotating the c/s, you will eventually spin your wheels, BUT do not try to apply brakes on the wheels and try to undo the bolt that way, I had explained why in a few posts above this text... (1st page post #12)
Let me know how it turns out!!!!! -Show that pulley who's the boss!!!!
KZL_99ES
09-20-2009, 10:39 PM
so... i studied those youtube videos and tried it, first time, the bolt came loose! yay!
and yeah, i only cranked it for about a second or or less, that's all it needed since the bolt has been loosened before from putting on the UR pulley.
now i took my whole side engine mount out for more room to work, i know it's probably not necessary, but it helps. (i do have the engine support with a jack though!)
i got everything out except for the water pump which i am going to replace too!
one thing that i did have to buy extra, two things, a 17mm deep-well socket for the side engine mount bolts and a 21mm socket for the crank bolt... just didn't have those on hand, lol
all this stuff is not really that hard, it just takes time, and is frustrating sometimes if/when you get stuck on something!
just for reference for others too, cost of everything you might need:
timing belt,
tensioner,
tensioner kit (includes: spring and other two tensioner wheels),
water pump w/ gasket,
and valve cover gasket...
...all came out to be about $250 (i got a employee discount though since a friend works a parts store) but it will be around that price.
all n' all, not a bad price to do something yourself that would be close to $1000 at a shop!
thanks for all your help!
so... i studied those youtube videos and tried it, first time, the bolt came loose! yay!
......
......
thanks for all your help!
OK, glad everything worked out OK! back here in Croatia, they would charge approx. $200 (minimum), just for labor.
jhl385
09-21-2009, 07:37 PM
Excellent write up! Thanks
slavrenz
09-23-2009, 01:40 PM
If you are thinking about the jagged (serrated) rim, don't mess with those spikes coz they are needed for the crank sensor to detect it's movement...
yeah, you put the gearbox in neutral, and if you decide to crank the engine to try and let the bolt loose, you will need all the power the electric starter has, so you do not want the compression to take all the power!!! Just be sure to crank it for just a second or so, coz the starter will have a hard time to turn, so it will be stressed and might burn out... Just do as they did in the Y/T video...
Yes, there is a flex and slack in the system, (it has to be that way, otherwise the system would snap if you dump the clutch or stall the engine)... the flex / slack is in the gears in the gearbox, shafts, clutch, dampers, so all added up, you can turn the crankshaft up to 360 degrees, while barely getting 1 degree on your wheels!
But as you continue rotating the c/s, you will eventually spin your wheels, BUT do not try to apply brakes on the wheels and try to undo the bolt that way, I had explained why in a few posts above this text... (1st page post #12)
Let me know how it turns out!!!!! -Show that pulley who's the boss!!!!
Well this is all fine and lovely for loosening the bolt, but how are you supposed to retighten it to 160 Nm? I presume the starter cannot be run in reverse? (nana)
Well this is all fine and lovely for loosening the bolt, but how are you supposed to retighten it to 160 Nm? I presume the starter cannot be run in reverse? (nana)
Hmmm, yes, that is a hard one...(uhm)
Well, you can always use an oil filter wrench hooked around the pulley...
(boom07)(smash)
http://www.classic-car-magazine.co.uk/articles/images/oil_change/oil_filter_wrench.jpg
And use my "magic marker" method...
slavrenz
09-23-2009, 11:07 PM
What was the thread pitch of the 8mm bolts for the crank pulley - 1.25, 1.5?
What was the thread pitch of the 8mm bolts for the crank pulley - 1.25, 1.5?
Ummm, I dunno, I'll have to check. It is what we call here a "standard" M8 thread. I believe it's 1.25 pitch.
Do you have a hard time buying them there?
KZL_99ES
09-24-2009, 06:43 PM
the way that i tightened the c/s bolt is have one person tightening the bolt while the other holds two wrenches i think they're 23 or 24mm one on each of the camshafts... we got both of the marker lines to line up, so it worked! it just takes a lot of effort to hold the camshafts still...
my question is: i finished everything and took it out for a drive... but there is a noticeable ticking sound that follows the revs and the idle is quite rougher than before i did the timing belt. There's no vac leak, bad egr (i don't have one), or maf, they were fine before i did all this work on the car...
so the question is, if i was one tooth off when i put on the belt, how much of an effect on the engine would there be?
the way that i tightened the c/s bolt is have one person tightening the bolt while the other holds two wrenches i think they're 23 or 24mm one on each of the camshafts... we got both of the marker lines to line up, so it worked! it just takes a lot of effort to hold the camshafts still...
Well, that is the most dangerous (by far) method of tightening the bolt...
Why? well, you just took off 50 000 miles of your belt!!!
Why? because, youo have used the belt itself, and alone to block the pulley!!!!! The belt had to withstand the force of locking the pulley for the bolt to be tightened. And we are talking here about 100 times more force than it would ever encounter in normal turning of the camshafts... :(
Plus, the camshaft pulleys as you had hold them, might have undone
them selves...
Not to mention the possibility of slipping a tooth or two...
t
my question is: i finished everything and took it out for a drive... but there is a noticeable ticking sound that follows the revs and the idle is quite rougher than before i did the timing belt. There's no vac leak, bad egr (i don't have one), or maf, they were fine before i did all this work on the car...
so the question is, if i was one tooth off when i put on the belt, how much of an effect on the engine would there be?
As I just mentioned, there is a possibility of slipping a tooth or two while tightening the C/s pulley, coz once you have tightened it, there's no way to see the marking on the c/s pulley, due to c/s it self and the protective plastic cover obstructing the view...
Even one tooth can seriously compromise engines performance...
So this is my guess... Yes, it probably skipped a tooth or two... But, on the other hand, it might not be the case....
Anyways, I will tell you what you probably don't want to hear: (shrug)
Take the belt out, replace it with the new one, recheck the cam shaft pulley bolts, recheck the markings, and tighten the pulley using some other way of blocking the c/s pulley and nothing else!!! Use an oil filter tool, use an impact tool...
And, after you have all the belt stuff sorted out, see if the ticking persists, (which I doubt it will), and start off from there!
Ok, here's the how-to for tightening the boltless c/s pulley, the way I did it once but on the other car, not Mazda though...
Take the old serpentine belt, (I suppose everyone replaces them when changing the timing belts...) and wrap the belt around the pulley and cut the belt shorter, co the belt goes nicely completely around the pulley - now you have made heavy-duty protection grip for the oil wrench to sit on.
Get a professional quality iol wrench
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00wCDtQUGcYIqNM/Oil-Filter-Wrench-Automotive-Repair-Tools.jpg
http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/photo/51156338/Oil_Filter_Wrench_Band.jpg
and go for it...
uconn9
10-25-2009, 08:21 AM
Gozz,
As a new member, I wanted to compliment you on an outstanding how-to. I tackled this job about 2 weeks ago and I couldn't have done it without your help; saved me about $850.
Two more tools I found very handy for the job:
- 3/8' ratchet with a swivel head
- 1 1/2" extension for 3/8" drive
Again, thanks for the help!
Gozz,
As a new member, I wanted to compliment you on an outstanding how-to. I tackled this job about 2 weeks ago and I couldn't have done it without your help; saved me about $850.
Two more tools I found very handy for the job:
- 3/8' ratchet with a swivel head
- 1 1/2" extension for 3/8" drive
Again, thanks for the help!
Glad to be of assistance!!!
Tzar177
01-25-2010, 11:26 AM
Only drain the radiator if your gonna change the water pump?
slavrenz
01-26-2010, 05:33 PM
Only drain the radiator if your gonna change the water pump?
Yeah, but I dunno why you wouldn't change the water pump.
slavrenz
01-26-2010, 05:34 PM
Hmmm, yes, that is a hard one...(uhm)
Well, you can always use an oil filter wrench hooked around the pulley...
(boom07)(smash)
http://www.classic-car-magazine.co.uk/articles/images/oil_change/oil_filter_wrench.jpg
And use my "magic marker" method...
I ended up just hitting mine again with the impact to tighten it. 4 months later and all is well.
Brcobrem
02-01-2010, 01:09 PM
Hi,
I'm doing the timing belt, roller, tensioner and water pump job per this post and threads. Great post and threads. Thanks! I've also been taking some pics and notes and have a couple suggestions and minor corrections. The new water pump and belt roller are installed, but I'm stuck on step #21. Here it is again (in quotes):
"21. Put the new tensioner and tighten it. (do not put the tension spring on yet!!!) This type of tensioners used on 1.8 and 2.0 proteges operates by a spring tension and auto-adjustment feature, meaning that even if it is tightened all the way, it will still swivel back and forth, as the spring pushes on it against the belt..."
If you were inside the engine looking at the back of the tensioner, you would notice the mounting large bolt hole, and a smaller "locator" hole next to the large hole. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/tensioner.JPG
Only problem is that there is no locator hole "pin" on the block to match up with that locator hole. So the question is, how do you position the tensioner before tightening up on the bolt?
Only thing I could think of is that since that other sources on the web say, "Check the tensioner spring length, if the free length is not 1.44 inch (36.5mm), replace the spring". That could mean install tensioner this way: install the bolt, but do not tighten it down fully yet. Next install the spring. The tension arm position will now be determined by the length of the spring (ie. the tensioner will fall freely counterclockwise but no farther then the length of the spring will permit). Is that what is supposed to happen?
I will appreciate your help on this.
Regards,
Brcobrem
slavrenz
02-01-2010, 02:33 PM
Hi,
I'm doing the timing belt, roller, tensioner and water pump job per this post and threads. Great post and threads. Thanks! I've also been taking some pics and notes and have a couple suggestions and minor corrections. The new water pump and belt roller are installed, but I'm stuck on step #21. Here it is again (in quotes):
"21. Put the new tensioner and tighten it. (do not put the tension spring on yet!!!) This type of tensioners used on 1.8 and 2.0 proteges operates by a spring tension and auto-adjustment feature, meaning that even if it is tightened all the way, it will still swivel back and forth, as the spring pushes on it against the belt..."
If you were inside the engine looking at the back of the tensioner, you would notice the mounting large bolt hole, and a smaller "locator" hole next to the large hole. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/tensioner.JPG
Only problem is that there is no locator hole "pin" on the block to match up with that locator hole. So the question is, how do you position the tensioner before tightening up on the bolt?
Only thing I could think of is that since that other sources on the web say, "Check the tensioner spring length, if the free length is not 1.44 inch (36.5mm), replace the spring". That could mean install tensioner this way: install the bolt, but do not tighten it down fully yet. Next install the spring. The tension arm position will now be determined by the length of the spring (ie. the tensioner will fall freely counterclockwise but no farther then the length of the spring will permit). Is that what is supposed to happen?
I will appreciate your help on this.
Regards,
Brcobrem
1. Put the spring on the tensioner like you have in that picture.
2. Bolt the tensioner to the block, and tighten it completely.
3. Spin the tensioner around so that the spring is at the top, and hook the free end of the spring onto the little pin that is on the block.
Make sure your timing belt is still lined up. If not, take the spring off the pin and try it again.
You don't need to match the smaller hole in the tensioner with anything on the block - the pulley spins around so you can align it after you bolt the tensioner on. Just be sure to torque it down all the way - don't "half" install it and then tighten it down later.
Brcobrem
02-01-2010, 06:41 PM
Thanks slavrenz. Looks like a tried to "make a mountain out of a mole hill" since I couldn't turn anything in my hands. Like you said, once bolted down, I should see that it will spin.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Thanks slavrenz. Looks like a tried to "make a mountain out of a mole hill" since I couldn't turn anything in my hands. Like you said, once bolted down, I should see that it will spin.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Well, my friend, that is what I wrote:
"21. Put the new tensioner and tighten it. (do not put the tension spring on yet!!!) This type of tensioners used on 1.8 and 2.0 proteges operates by a spring tension and auto-adjustment feature, meaning that even if it is tightened all the way, it will still swivel back and forth, as the spring pushes on it against the belt..."
Brcobrem
02-08-2010, 06:27 PM
Hi gozz,
I have it all put back together, but I have an annoying whining noise that I can't quite pin down. Please forgive this long thread, but I want to explain clearly. Here goes:
There is no whining noise at all at idle; either sitting still or if I drive down the road and depress the clutch and let it slow down to idle while still moving. Either parked or moving, as I bring up the revs just above idle, I start hearing the noise, and it gets a little louder as rpms increase. The noise sort of sounds like a high pitched dentist's drill.
To try to debug this, I loosened up both the A-C/PowerSteering and alternator/waterpump belts completely and did the rev test: still the noise comes as described above with both belts disengaged.
Here are three things that I can think of:
1) The black plastic OEM timing belt top and bottom covers had bad gaskets softened from my valve cover leakage, and were cracked at one mounting hole, so I replaced the covers (~$80US from Rockauto). When I put the bottom cover on, then put the crank pulley with its rear thin "washer" back on the crank shaft, I noticed that pulley's back shaft cleared the plastic hole as expected, but it looked like the "washer" was going to rub just slightly on the plastic hole. I didn't worry about this because I assumed the rubbing would "wear" the plastic hole to size in a matter of a couple miles.
2) I removed the crank bolt with a 2ft bar with the 21mm socket, and bumped the starter, as seen in the YouTube video. This is an old trick that has served me well over the years. Even though I have a torque wrench, I copied your idea of marking the bolt and pulley with an alignment line before removal, so I could visually see that the bolt was replaced to the same position that it was removed. When I put the bolt back on the final time, I had no assistants available. The 8mm bolts that I could screw into the pulley gave me no way to lock the crank without bending the bolts. So I came up with an idea to use the 8mm hole protrusions on the front of the pulley and a 2 3/4" long 3/8" extension. I placed the 3/8" extension's female socket on one of the protrusions, and placed the male end on the underside lip of the fender frame. I temporarily reinserted the crank bolt and turned the crank to snuggle up the extension in place, then removed the bolt. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_tighten.jpg
This effectively locked the crank when pulling on the bolt and allowed me to get the bolt installed to specs. Just a word of caution here: make sure you have the motor mount re-installed before tightening the bolt, because this will try to pull down on the engine as you tighten the bolt.
3) In my 2/1/10 thread, I was concerned about how to get the new tension arm installed correctly, and you offered guidance which I appreciate. I bolted that arm down, and had to use a hex wrench in that hex hole on the front to move that arm fully clockwise so that the spring hole was on top (and made it easy to attach the new spring to the pin). Spring installed, when I let go of that hex key, that arm didn't move back counterclockwise *one mm*. I left it like that because the instructions that came with the tension arm said to move it fully clockwise with some force, put the spring on the pin, and your done (nothing abut manually moving it counterclockwise). The only way that new tension arm moves counterclockwise that I can see, is if I put a hex key in it and manually do it. My assumption here is that there must be enough significant force from the belt to push that arm counter clockwise at some time; otherwise the spring would not be necessary to counter the counterclockwise movement.
Again, so very sorry for the long tread. I will greatly appreciate if you would care to comment on my items 1, 2 and 3 above (or anything else you might think of).
Regards,
Brcobrem
P.S. I have some new pics and (hopefully) helpful comments about this job that I will be happy to post once I get over this last problem. In the interim, here's one about getting the timing marks aligned that (like myself) I see other people had problems with: The two slotted marks on the cams must be lined up perfectly horizontal (ie. not tilted down at all). I could not get the crank notch and these marks to align after tuning the crank four turns, until an hour later . . . I discovered that when you remove the belt, the cams are still under some tension from the lifters I suppose, and those alignment marks will move downward about one tooth when the belt comes off. You're under the vehicle trying to slide the belt over the tension arm so it will come easily off the crank gear, and you don't notice the cam marks have moved slightly. Following is a (after the fact) pic of my left hand and right hand pushing downward on each cam (not much force required). THE BELT SHOULD NOT BE ON AS SHOWN HERE! Have an assistant tap in a little block of wood to keep the cams sprung back in proper position once the wrenches are removed. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE BELT ON THE CAMS! This pic was taken after I had put the belt back on correctly. And by all means, do not forget to tap out that piece of wood once the belt is back on the cams! Note that the cams can't spring back out of horizontal because they'd have to crush that piece of wood:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
Hope that helps.
slavrenz
02-09-2010, 12:08 AM
Hi gozz,
I have it all put back together, but I have an annoying whining noise that I can't quite pin down. Please forgive this long thread, but I want to explain clearly. Here goes:
There is no whining noise at all at idle; either sitting still or if I drive down the road and depress the clutch and let it slow down to idle while still moving. Either parked or moving, as I bring up the revs just above idle, I start hearing the noise, and it gets a little louder as rpms increase. The noise sort of sounds like a high pitched dentist's drill.
To try to debug this, I loosened up both the A-C/PowerSteering and alternator/waterpump belts completely and did the rev test: still the noise comes as described above with both belts disengaged.
Here are three things that I can think of:
1) The black plastic OEM timing belt top and bottom covers had bad gaskets softened from my valve cover leakage, and were cracked at one mounting hole, so I replaced the covers (~$80US from Rockauto). When I put the bottom cover on, then put the crank pulley with its rear thin "washer" back on the crank shaft, I noticed that pulley's back shaft cleared the plastic hole as expected, but it looked like the "washer" was going to rub just slightly on the plastic hole. I didn't worry about this because I assumed the rubbing would "wear" the plastic hole to size in a matter of a couple miles.
2) I removed the crank bolt with a 2ft bar with the 21mm socket, and bumped the starter, as seen in the YouTube video. This is an old trick that has served me well over the years. Even though I have a torque wrench, I copied your idea of marking the bolt and pulley with an alignment line before removal, so I could visually see that the bolt was replaced to the same position that it was removed. When I put the bolt back on the final time, I had no assistants available. The 8mm bolts that I could screw into the pulley gave me no way to lock the crank without bending the bolts. So I came up with an idea to use the 8mm hole protrusions on the front of the pulley and a 2 3/4" long 3/8" extension. I placed the 3/8" extension's female socket on one of the protrusions, and placed the male end on the underside lip of the fender frame. I temporarily reinserted the crank bolt and turned the crank to snuggle up the extension in place, then removed the bolt. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_tighten.jpg
This effectively locked the crank when pulling on the bolt and allowed me to get the bolt installed to specs. Just a word of caution here: make sure you have the motor mount re-installed before tightening the bolt, because this will try to pull down on the engine as you tighten the bolt.
3) In my 2/1/10 thread, I was concerned about how to get the new tension arm installed correctly, and you offered guidance which I appreciate. I bolted that arm down, and had to use a hex wrench in that hex hole on the front to move that arm fully clockwise so that the spring hole was on top (and made it easy to attach the new spring to the pin). Spring installed, when I let go of that hex key, that arm didn't move back counterclockwise *one mm*. I left it like that because the instructions that came with the tension arm said to move it fully clockwise with some force, put the spring on the pin, and your done (nothing abut manually moving it counterclockwise). The only way that new tension arm moves counterclockwise that I can see, is if I put a hex key in it and manually do it. My assumption here is that there must be enough significant force from the belt to push that arm counter clockwise at some time; otherwise the spring would not be necessary to counter the counterclockwise movement.
Again, so very sorry for the long tread. I will greatly appreciate if you would care to comment on my items 1, 2 and 3 above (or anything else you might think of).
Regards,
Brcobrem
P.S. I have some new pics and (hopefully) helpful comments about this job that I will be happy to post once I get over this last problem. In the interim, here's one about getting the timing marks aligned that (like myself) I see other people had problems with: The two slotted marks on the cams must be lined up perfectly horizontal (ie. not tilted down at all). I could not get the crank notch and these marks to align after tuning the crank four turns, until an hour later . . . I discovered that when you remove the belt, the cams are still under some tension from the lifters I suppose, and those alignment marks will move downward about one tooth when the belt comes off. You're under the vehicle trying to slide the belt over the tension arm so it will come easily off the crank gear, and you don't notice the cam marks have moved slightly. Following is a (after the fact) pic of my left hand and right hand pushing downward on each cam (not much force required). THE BELT SHOULD NOT BE ON AS SHOWN HERE! Have an assistant tap in a little block of wood to keep the cams sprung back in proper position once the wrenches are removed. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE BELT ON THE CAMS! This pic was taken after I had put the belt back on correctly. And by all means, do not forget to tap out that piece of wood once the belt is back on the cams! Note that the cams can't spring back out of horizontal because they'd have to crush that piece of wood:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
Hope that helps.
1. How is the car running?
2. was the whine present before you did the timing belt?
3. When you say the tensioner didn't move back at all, do you mean that there was no resistance pulling it back? Is the spring tight, or can it be moved around on the pin?
From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad, and maybe the bearing inside is causing a whining sounds. The only other way to check this would be to take the plastic timing covers off, replace the valve cover, and run the car with the belt exposed so that you can pinpoint the noise. Good luck.
P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward. then, when I put tension on the belt with the tension, it pulled the marks up level. But to each his own :)
Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...:( I'll have to have a look-see when I get back home today...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
slavrenz
02-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...:( I'll have to have a look-see when I get back home today...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
But if I'm understanding his original statement right, he's getting little to no resistance from the tension after the spring is attached (maybe I misunderstood him). For that reason, and because of the whining, I thought maybe his tensioner was shot and the bearing or something was causing that whine.
But if I'm understanding his original statement right, he's getting little to no resistance from the tension after the spring is attached (maybe I misunderstood him). For that reason, and because of the whining, I thought maybe his tensioner was shot and the bearing or something was causing that whine.
Could be...
Well, what I am thinking... If he has no resistance from the tension, his belt would have skipped a beat of two, and he would have much more problems than just the whining noise...
The best way of "long distance" troubleshooting is for him to tape this noise and tensioner problem, and put it on YT or somewhere else on the web, and then, we can say more...
would you agree???
slavrenz
02-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Could be...
Well, what I am thinking... If he has no resistance from the tension, his belt would have skipped a beat of two, and he would have much more problems than just the whining noise...
The best way of "long distance" troubleshooting is for him to tape this noise and tensioner problem, and put it on YT or somewhere else on the web, and then, we can say more...
would you agree???
Yeah, it's a lot easier to diagnose a sound by listening to it. As far as the tensioner, that's why I was asking how his car is running - if it's missing and running like crap in general, then that supports the idea that the entire tensioner itself may be shot. If not, it's something less serious.
I guess we can't do much more until that guy gets back on here. Geez, I need to get a life :)
Yeah, it's a lot easier to diagnose a sound by listening to it. As far as the tensioner, that's why I was asking how his car is running - if it's missing and running like crap in general, then that supports the idea that the entire tensioner itself may be shot. If not, it's something less serious.
I guess we can't do much more until that guy gets back on here. Geez, I need to get a life :)
Yeah... btw, what's the time over there right now???
And what's the weather like???
As I am writing this, it is 5 in the afternoon...
And, here it is a bit snowy and a bit below freezing... but they say plenty more snow to come....(hand)
I am planning to do the oil change on my 323 (protege) and my wife's car as well, but as far as the weather is concerned:
[IMG]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2356/77523832.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/77523832.jpg/)
I thing I'll wait for the spring to come...
slavrenz
02-10-2010, 02:43 PM
Yeah... btw, what's the time over there right now???
And what's the weather like???
As I am writing this, it is 5 in the afternoon...
And, here it is a bit snowy and a bit below freezing... but they say plenty more snow to come....(hand)
I am planning to do the oil change on my 323 (protege) and my wife's car as well, but as far as the weather is concerned:
[IMG]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2356/77523832.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/77523832.jpg/)
I thing I'll wait for the spring to come...
Haha, I hear ya there. I think it was about 9:30AM when I posted yesterday, which would be about an 8 1/2 hour time difference.
This snow is killing me. We're at 60 inches for the year already, and we're supposed to get another 20 inches in the next 3 weeks. I've been in this state for 21 years, and I still can't get used to it.
Bah! (toilet)
Brcobrem
02-10-2010, 09:36 PM
1. How is the car running?
2. was the whine present before you did the timing belt?
3. When you say the tensioner didn't move back at all, do you mean that there was no resistance pulling it back? Is the spring tight, or can it be moved around on the pin?
From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad, and maybe the bearing inside is causing a whining sounds. The only other way to check this would be to take the plastic timing covers off, replace the valve cover, and run the car with the belt exposed so that you can pinpoint the noise. Good luck.
P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward. then, when I put tension on the belt with the tension, it pulled the marks up level. But to each his own :)
Hi slavrenz,
So very sorry about the delayed reply. My work has occupied my full time for the last couple days. I'll reply to everyone's replies individually with messages quoted to help relieve confusion. Here goes:
Answering your questions:
1. The car runs perfectly.
2. The whine was not present before I did the timing belt.
3. Fyi, this is a brand new tensioner (and the other roller is new too). I used the hex key to rotate the tensioner fully clockwise so that I could easily slip the spring over the pin on the block without having to stretch the spring. Yes, I got it into the little groove too. I then used the hex key to move the tensioner counter-clockwise (maybe a quarter inch) a bit to put a little tension on the spring because I was afraid that the spring would fall off the pin with almost no tension on it at all.
You said, "From what I'm reading, it sounds like maybe your new tensioner is bad . . .".
Fyi, I kept the old tensioner and idle roller just in case.
You said, "P.S. - For the camshaft problem, I just installed mine with the marks pointing slightly downward . . .".
I did it your way a couple times and every time I put the belt over the tensioner and turned the crank 4 complete turns, when the cam marks were exactly horizontal, the crank mark was then one tooth worths clock wise of the mark on the block. Perhaps if I introduced one tooth's worth of slack on the belt between the cams (when the marks were pointed down a little, your method would have worked for me). Like you said, to each his own and I respect that comment. My way of "spreading the cams" was the only way that day that I could make all three marks line up after spinning it 4 turns. Btw, I have a tech doc from an on line Chilton that shows some special little toothed locker thing that you are supposed to insert between the cams (like I did with the wood) before you remove the belt. That's how I finally come up with me home brew solution.
I'll move on to the other replies now.
Thanks so much for your continuing assistance.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Brcobrem
02-10-2010, 10:30 PM
Hi there, Brcobrem...(2thumbs)
Well, you got your self quite a dilema here...
Ok let's go...
1)
It seems to me you got that part covered all by yourself...
2)
I am at work now, and they had fire-walled my internet connection, so I can't see any pics...:( I'll have to have a look-see when I get back home today...
But is seems to be a rather nice method...
Other way, ab it more complicated btw, is to fashion your own ss tool to have it handy for the future ventures...
You just take two steel pipes, (or bars) and bolt-join them together on one end...
Then, you drill out 8 mm holes, one on each opposite end. Bolt those ends onto the pulley using 8 mm bolts, and voila, you have a self adjustable sst wrench...
I don't know if you have understood me, coz yet again I cannot use any image hosting site coz of my company's internet policy....
3)
Yes, well, the main problem here (besides the lifters trying to move the C/S as you have noticed) is that the alignment is right when the belt is on nice and snug... As Slavrenz mentioned...
If you was to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on....
so you need to give it a tiny bit of slack just enough to put the belt on...
that slack is maybe 1/16th or maybe even 1/32nd of misalignment on the C/S
pulleys.... But once you get the belt on tight with the tensioner, the markings should be perfect...(first)
Now, about the tensioner, the "devil" itself...
Well, as you have learned, it's operation is a bit weird...
It "swivels" around it's center dead-bolted onto the engine block, but it doesn't do it freely, but it takes some effort... why is that?
Well, when an engine runs, especially at low rpm, it jitters,- meaning it constantly accelerates during explosions within the cylinders, and decelerates durin compression cycle, (hence the common shaking noticeable at low rpms...)
That puts constant oscillations on the tensioner, so if it was soft (swiveling effortlessly) the possibility of belt-slippage would appear...
One more example, more vibrant one:
When you turn your engine off, the compression stops the engine but kicks it back a bit, so the engine spins backwards a bit ... (maybe 1/4 of a turn)
That puts tension on the opposite side of the belt (instead the idler, the tensioner suffers), so again, if there is no viscosity in the tensioner, the belt would skip a tooth or two...
So this is why it moves a bit difficultly...
BUT!!! If it moves TOO DIFFICULTLY, then the spring does not have enough power to properly tighten the belt...
So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...
The hex opening is just to wedge the hex key to move/swivel it more easily...
Now, about the whining noise...
Well, two main causes for a timing belt to whine:
1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or
2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm...
Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...
(I hope you understood my English (silly) )
Hi Gozz,
First of all, your English and grammar is as good or even better than that of myself and most of the people around my town here in the USA :-)
I like your idea for making that tool too :-) When you get a chance, check out the pic I posted where I used a socket extension. Hope my method didn't press down to hard on the crank bearing :-(
You said, "If you were to hold the pulleys like that, it would be impossible to put the belt on...."
Respectfully, it is not impossible, and quite easy (as the last step) to slip the belt over the tension arm roller (when the spring is at the position where it is almost loose). I do appreciate your comment though, and will try your method with "some slack" on the belt between the cams if I have to go over this again. Let you know how that goes if I go there again.
Regarding the tensioner, you said, "So you have to make sure it moves "just right"...".
If I have to take off that crank pulley again to get that bottom plastic cover off (to do a sound check on the various parts with a hose in the ear), you bet I'm going to take a good look at that tensioner to see f it ever moved counter clockwise from where I installed it. Thanks for the detailed examples of how that thing is supposed to work.
You said, "1) Either it is way to tightened (obviously not the case here) or...".
I'm not so sure that that is not the problem. Note my comments in the other reply to slavrenz about having to manually turn it counter clockwise a bit to make sure the spring stayed on.
You said, "2) the belt rubs it's side against the pulley when under load (not while idling...) hence the noise at higher rpm... Sometimes, but rather rarely, it whines for a first week or so, until it fully beds in...".
I drove it about 10 miles the day I had the job done, and it has been parked since. Before driving it again, I was anxious to get back to this forum to see what you all had to say about the whining nose. I'm going to put it back on the road and drive it. Tomorrow, I'll also get a friend's ipod that records sound and video and upload an mpg4/avi/wmi file for you to review. I tried to do this with my Blackjack phone, but I couldn't get the sound file off of it to upload (and the sound quality was lousy at best).
Thank you again for putting up with me on this new issue. I appreciate your helpful assistance.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Brcobrem
02-10-2010, 10:49 PM
Could be...
Well, what I am thinking... If he has no resistance from the tension, his belt would have skipped a beat of two, and he would have much more problems than just the whining noise...
The best way of "long distance" troubleshooting is for him to tape this noise and tensioner problem, and put it on YT or somewhere else on the web, and then, we can say more...
would you agree???
Hi again gozz and slavrenz,
When I put the belt on, and slipped it over the tensioner, I used the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise and put the tensioner's spring hole almost directly under the pin (making it easy to slip the spring on the pin with pin slot). The spring was slightly loose on the pin, so I then used the key to manually turn the tensioner counter clockwise a little so that the pin would not vibrate off. Btw, I did not ever over-stretch the new spring.
I continue to be grateful for your help and will get a video with sound up for you all tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
slavrenz
02-11-2010, 01:07 AM
Hi again gozz and slavrenz,
When I put the belt on, and slipped it over the tensioner, I used the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise and put the tensioner's spring hole almost directly under the pin (making it easy to slip the spring on the pin with pin slot). The spring was slightly loose on the pin, so I then used the key to manually turn the tensioner counter clockwise a little so that the pin would not vibrate off. Btw, I did not ever over-stretch the new spring.
I continue to be grateful for your help and will get a video with sound up for you all tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Long story short, once that spring is on the pin, you should not have to manually rotate it again to get tension on the belt - it should be pretty freakin' taut on its own. I still think maybe there's a problem with the new tensioner, like maybe the internal spring mechanism is busted.
I hope you get this figured out.
Hi again gozz and slavrenz,
When I put the belt on, and slipped it over the tensioner, I used the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise and put the tensioner's spring hole almost directly under the pin (making it easy to slip the spring on the pin with pin slot). The spring was slightly loose on the pin, so I then used the key to manually turn the tensioner counter clockwise a little so that the pin would not vibrate off. Btw, I did not ever over-stretch the new spring.
I continue to be grateful for your help and will get a video with sound up for you all tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hi!
I am swamped here at work, so I'll reply later today...
Meanwhile, try to tape the sound and put it on the web so we can see more clearly what's going on...
Brcobrem
02-11-2010, 10:58 AM
Long story short, once that spring is on the pin, you should not have to manually rotate it again to get tension on the belt - it should be pretty freakin' taut on its own. I still think maybe there's a problem with the new tensioner, like maybe the internal spring mechanism is busted.
I hope you get this figured out.
Hi slavrenz,
Let me clarify this: To get the spring on the pin, I use the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise. Yes, turning the tensioner clockwise that far puts very much tension on the belt.
Once the spring is on (the belt is still very tensioned now), I used the key once again to rotate the tensioner counter clockwise about 1/4" to keep the spring from falling off the pin (it was on the pin, but very loose on there). This make the belt slightly less tensioned.
Thanks for your reply. I'll get that video up in about 6 hours from now.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hi slavrenz,
Let me clarify this: To get the spring on the pin, I use the hex key to turn the tensioner clockwise. Yes, turning the tensioner clockwise that far puts very much tension on the belt.
Once the spring is on (the belt is still very tensioned now), I used the key once again to rotate the tensioner counter clockwise about 1/4" to keep the spring from falling off the pin (it was on the pin, but very loose on there). This make the belt slightly less tensioned.
Thanks for your reply. I'll get that video up in about 6 hours from now.
Regards,
Brcobrem
I ma afraid you took the wrong approach here...
Here's what you should do:
WITHOUT the belt on, you should use the hex wrench to turn it clockwise -> put the spring on -> put the belt on -> rotate the hex wrench counter clockwise just enough to slip the belt underneath the tensioner -> remove the hex wrench and let the spring do it's magic...
Brcobrem
02-12-2010, 04:01 PM
I ma afraid you took the wrong approach here...
Here's what you should do:
WITHOUT the belt on, you should use the hex wrench to turn it clockwise -> put the spring on -> put the belt on -> rotate the hex wrench counter clockwise just enough to slip the belt underneath the tensioner -> remove the hex wrench and let the spring do it's magic...
Hi gozz,
I agree that your method described here would be one way of doing it. In fact, your method might give a more accurate final counter clockwise position for the tensioner. That said, I followed the directions enclosed with the Dayco P/N 95228 timing belt. I have scanned that and uploaded a pdf here (left click on the little blank page icon and click the "Open" button):
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Dayco^_PN^_95228^_timing^_belt^_instructions.pdf
So for better or for worse, I did do it by the book.
I was able to get a little video on this uploaded also (after I learned how to use an iPod video converter today). Here's the link for the mp4 (RealPlayer plays mp4 files). To see the video you have to left click on the mp4 file and press the "Open" button:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Whining^_noise^_after^_timing^_belt^_replacement.m p4
It's Friday afternoon here now. I just canceled a work appointment a had scheduled for tomorrow. I'm feeling like I'm going to get some more practice removing and installing that crank pulley again (nailbyt)
Thanks again for your and everyone's help. I'll check the forum again later tonight and tomorrow morning before getting the tools out again.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hi gozz,
I agree that your method described here would be one way of doing it. In fact, your method might give a more accurate final counter clockwise position for the tensioner. That said, I followed the directions enclosed with the Dayco P/N 95228 timing belt. I have scanned that and uploaded a pdf here (left click on the little blank page icon and click the "Open" button):
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Dayco^_PN^_95228^_timing^_belt^_instructions.pdf
So for better or for worse, I did do it by the book.
I was able to get a little video on this uploaded also (after I learned how to use an iPod video converter today). Here's the link for the mp4 (RealPlayer plays mp4 files). To see the video you have to left click on the mp4 file and press the "Open" button:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Whining^_noise^_after^_timing^_belt^_replacement.m p4
It's Friday afternoon here now. I just canceled a work appointment a had scheduled for tomorrow. I'm feeling like I'm going to get some more practice removing and installing that crank pulley again (nailbyt)
Thanks again for your and everyone's help. I'll check the forum again later tonight and tomorrow morning before getting the tools out again.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Uh, oh, I've just heard the clip, and it is definitely not a tensioner noise.
First, it might be a long shot, but just to be on a safe side, make sure that it is not the power steering pump making the noise. Remove thew P/S belt and see... As I recall, you've mentioned you have done that already, but do it again, just to be safe, because P/S pumps are known of making the same noise when out of P/S fluid or close to their deaths...(hand)
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBo53WSzAGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuwGTHs9BXs&feature=related
OK, now if the P/S pump is out of the question, it is DEFINITELY the timing belt rubbing it's side (teeth) against either a pulley or the engine block or maybe the freakin' plastic protectors....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpifrCDORHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubydLtwPDqo&feature=related
Ok, I have uploaded for you a segment of Mazda Service manual, so you can see and read through a proper procedure of replacing the belt...
http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=468CA0B81
Read it, study it and dig under the hood...
As I replaced the belt on my protege, it has not whined for one bit... (so shouldn't yours)....
my baby:
http://img268.imageshack.us/i/maz2mqq.jpg/
http://img268.imageshack.us/i/maz3.jpg/
Brcobrem
02-13-2010, 12:40 PM
Hi gozz,
First thing I did when I heard that noise was to disengage the accessory belts and start it up: the noise still persisted. Thanks for those pump noise links. I'll put that in my book of things to remember.
The second link for the timing belt noise sounds exactly like the problem I'm having. Good thing I didn't put the tools away yet.
Thanks also for that service manual excerpt. I'll be using that today.
Nice pics of your ride! I'll have to upload a couple vehicle shots when I get the problem put to rest.
Btw, here's a cool free spell checker for Internet Explorer. You just highlight your text, right click and choose Check Spelling. I been using it for years every time I post:
http://www.iespell.com/
Let you know how it goes today/tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hi gozz,
First thing I did when I heard that noise was to disengage the accessory belts and start it up: the noise still persisted. Thanks for those pump noise links. I'll put that in my book of things to remember.
The second link for the timing belt noise sounds exactly like the problem I'm having. Good thing I didn't put the tools away yet.
Thanks also for that service manual excerpt. I'll be using that today.
Nice pics of your ride! I'll have to upload a couple vehicle shots when I get the problem put to rest.
Btw, here's a cool free spell checker for Internet Explorer. You just highlight your text, right click and choose Check Spelling. I been using it for years every time I post:
http://www.iespell.com/
Let you know how it goes today/tomorrow.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Hello Brcobrem,
Thank you for the spell checker, I'll sure try and use it.
The problem that I have is I already have installed Croatian spell checker that is running all the time, so when I start typing in English, the darn thing goes on the fritz, and starts having a mind of it's own.... (deadhorse
If you'd like, I can upload the entire service manual, it can come quite handy from time to time... (40Mb)
Looking forward to read the outcome!!!
;)
Brcobrem
02-15-2010, 10:05 PM
Hi gozz (& slavrenz),
Yes, I would certainly like to have that shop manual. Can you put that up somewhere for me to download? Otherwise, I can provide you with my public email address (I'll make it non-harvestable) and you can use the sendbigfiles.com way of doing it.
Problem solved. It was that new tensioner !
Recall that I had used the hex key to turn it closkwise to get the spring on (the standard procedure). I also said I had to use the hex key to turn it counter clockwise about 1/8" to keep the spring from falling off the pin.
When I disassembled everything again on Saturday, I saw that the tensioner was in the same exact position that I left it in. Additionally, it had some rubber from the belt embedded on it. Here's a pic looking down from the top:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/tensioner^_with^_rubber^_from^_excessive^_tension. jpg
I put the hex key back in, and when I started to manually turn it another 1/8" counter clockwise, it "popped" by itself counter clockwise. Like it was stuck, and I unstuck it. Now I could see the spring coils were extended a little, as one would expect they should be. Here's a pic viewing from the top down from inside the engine compartment:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/tensioner^_with^_spring^_coils^_extended.jpg
If you zoom your browser to about 200% you will see the the spring directly underneith the roller (remember that the pic is upside down), with it's little black rubber cap, and a couple of the brass colorerd cad plated spring coils slightly extended. Just to make sure it was tensioning the belt properly now, I grabbed onto that roller with my had an put as much passure as I could to manually move it clockwise into the belt. Needless to say, it didn't move much clockwise at this point, because it was already tensioned enough.
Just to make sure the problem was resolved, I carefully used a little solvent on a cloth to remove that caked on rubber off the roller, then put the crank pulley back on, then put the spark plugs and valve cover back on, and started it up: whining noise gone at all rpm ranges. Hopefully obvious CAUTION: do not run the engine at very long with the water pump belt removed or you will overheat the engine and get a steam bath.
I made a couple other observations during the second disassembly:
1) The old belt was .99" wide. The new belt was 1.02" wide. The new belt was rubbing just slightly on the crank pulley washer facing the belt. Here's a pic where you can see the black rubber marks from the rubbing:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_washer^_rubbed^_by^_belt.jpg
When I removed the bottom plastic cover, I noticed a very small fine line of belt dust on the cover form this rubbing. I can hazzard a guess that perhaps this is the source of the whining that you mentioned some people experience the first week with a new belt. In this pic, I've circled those dust particles in red:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/bottom^_cover^_with^_some^_belt^_dust.jpg
2) I previously mentioned that the crank pulley washer rubbed on the new bottom plastic cover. Here's a pic showing where it wore itself in (not to worry about this wearing in):
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/bottom^_cover^_with^_crank^_washer^_wear^_area.jpg
Here's a pic showing how the bottom cover is not exactly designed correctly to allow the washer to be perfectly centered (yes, I have the cover's locator pins in the block correctly before putting the bolts in) :
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/crank^_pulley^_washer^_wear^_in^_off^_center.jpg
I have some more pics and observations, but I need to go for today. Thank you and everyone for the help again and for putting up with me this long.
Regards,
Brcobrem
slavrenz
02-15-2010, 11:13 PM
That makes sense. Like I said above, there's no way that you should have to worry about your tensioner spring being loose on that pin if the tensioner is working properly - that SOB was really stuck.
Now I hope that this stays fixed permanently. Personally, I would've returned the tensioner and gotten a new one, but I also have a second vehicle to drive, so...
Anyways, glad everything worked out for you.
Hurray!!!
I am glad you found the problem and managed to fix it before something worse happened.
I guess you have a lot more experience now, and I wish you loads of miles with the new belt on...
Oh, and yes, I'll upload the manual and PM you the link!
deepdezal
03-07-2010, 12:31 AM
Hi Guys,
Car stalled after timing belt change and it won’t start. I drove the car for about 100 miles after I installed the new belt. Now the car is not starting and the ignition is not sparking.
What could be the issue? I didn’t mess with ckp sensor during the disassembly..
Any pointer would be appreciated.
Thanks!
KZL_99ES
03-07-2010, 01:18 AM
i'm pretty sure that you were off a tooth or two... but i can't explain you being able to drive it for a 100 miles before it stalled...
slavrenz
03-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Hi Guys,
Car stalled after timing belt change and it won’t start. I drove the car for about 100 miles after I installed the new belt. Now the car is not starting and the ignition is not sparking.
What could be the issue? I didn’t mess with ckp sensor during the disassembly..
Any pointer would be appreciated.
Thanks!
You have no choice but to rip back into things and see if your belt is off by one or more teeth. Check that first and post back.
Did you crank the engine manually 3-4 times after installing the new belt to make sure everything was still lined up?
No matter how your belt decided to act, the cam sensor and crank sensor should definately trigger the ECU to give spark...
First check those two (cam and crank sensors)
Brcobrem
03-08-2010, 06:43 PM
Hi deepdezal,
You are probably in better hands with the experts (gozz and slavrenz), but for what it's worth . . .
In my 2/12/10 thread I had a link for the instructions that came with the timing belt. See:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive...structions.pdf
There you will notice the little toothed "wedge" that you are suppose to insert between the cam gears *before* you remove the belt. I didn't have that wedge either. When I put the belt back on, I didn't notice that the cam markers (that are supposed to aligned perfectly horizontal) had both moved downward a little bit due to pressure from the lifters. I was perplexed when I put the new belt on because I could not get the cam markers perfectly horizontal and the crank marker right on the mark at the same time. I then came up with the idea that you can see in in the "P.S." section at the bottom of my 2/8/10 thread. Here it is again for your convenience:
"P.S. I have some new pics and (hopefully) helpful comments about this job that I will be happy to post once I get over this last problem. In the interim, here's one about getting the timing marks aligned that (like myself) I see other people had problems with: The two slotted marks on the cams must be lined up perfectly horizontal (ie. not tilted down at all). I could not get the crank notch and these marks to align after tuning the crank four turns, until an hour later . . . I discovered that when you remove the belt, the cams are still under some tension from the lifters I suppose, and those alignment marks will move downward about one tooth when the belt comes off. You're under the vehicle trying to slide the belt over the tension arm so it will come easily off the crank gear, and you don't notice the cam marks have moved slightly. Following is a (after the fact) pic of my left hand and right hand pushing downward on each cam (not much force required). THE BELT SHOULD NOT BE ON AS SHOWN HERE! Have an assistant tap in a little block of wood to keep the cams sprung back in proper position once the wrenches are removed. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE BELT ON THE CAMS! This pic was taken after I had put the belt back on correctly. And by all means, do not forget to tap out that piece of wood once the belt is back on the cams! Note that the cams can't spring back out of horizontal because they'd have to crush that piece of wood:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
"
Regards,
Brcobrem
deepdezal
03-09-2010, 09:46 AM
Slavrenz, Gozz and Brcobrem thanks for all your help! And documenting the how to do the timing belt job.
And Brcobrem great idea on locking cams in to place! Next time I will use this trick. I had my wife hold the belt on the exhaust cam, while I aligned the intake cam to install the belt.
The culprit was a "failed" spring. Maybe it was damaged by me during the install or a faulty manufactured spring. I used Dayco tensioner, roller and spring kit that I bought form Advanced auto parts.
As I said before. I drove the car for about 100 miles after installing the new belt and car was making the same power and everything was working smooth. I did rotate the crank confirming the timing was correct. Spring failed as I was going home from work. So I got the car towed to work because it was near by and I didn’t have AAA coverage.
Next day I brought some tools to work and took off the value cover and saw their was tensioner on the timing belt and could not confirm the timing marks due to lack of light and me being lazy. Since there was tension on the belt, I thought the CKP sensor had failed and causing no ignition.
Last weekend I got the car towed home and took the belts off and that is when I discovered that exhaust cam had jumped by more then a few teeth and when I took the spring off, it was damaged. I got a new spring from Advance Auto parts and installed everything back and I have driven the car for about a 100 miles. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Next big thing that I have to do is install KYB struts on the car. I have a Air-Compress that I borrowed from my neighbor.
Thanks for all your help!
Deep
cfell
03-21-2010, 08:34 PM
I read your posts.. very helpful!
However, I have an interesting problem.. the car won't run. Here's the story..
We are second owners of the car.. a 2003 Protege 5, 2Liter, Automatic, AC, PS, etc. We do not know if the car has had the timing belt replaced previously... or cams.. but it all "appeared" to be "stock".
My son replaced the timing belt.. He is very competent, (even tho I taught him all he knows)...
We had been having a "idle problem".. as when my wife drove the car and would let off the throttle, the car would die.. (of course it NEVER failed for me or our 3 sons..).. and the idle was never real smooth.... and at 114k miles, we figured it was time to replace the belts.
Before removal of the "original" belt, he tied the camshaft pulleys with wireties. He then replaced the belt without moving any of the engine or cam pulleys.
We reassembled everything and the car would drive but once "warmed up" the car would idle very slow, rough and then die.
It is also throwing "random misfire".... Which I tracked to loose battery connections... and then found the battery connection was split and arcing... and so replaced the battery connectors.
Next we figured out it might be the "EGR" valve. So, I replaced that... and the car would idle without "dying", but ran very slow...and rough.
We figured there must be something messed up on the timing.
So, we disassembled and checked the timing...
Guess what...? The timing marks did not align as noted in your "Mazda Manual" posted above...
So now the problem... We aligned the cam pulleys as documented ... with the I on the Intake cam and E on the Exhaust pointing up... we then "fine" tuned them to align the "timing marks" horizontal to the head....
Now, the car won't start at all... doesn't pop at all... but we did not crank more than a couple seconds.
The problem may be that I did not align things properly.
So, do you think I should have the I and E letters aligned to each other?
KZL_99ES
03-21-2010, 10:43 PM
the two little tick marks have to be facing each other and the crank shaft notch has to be facing up...at i'm pretty sure.
Sleezer1533
03-21-2010, 10:54 PM
sub!
cfell
03-21-2010, 11:06 PM
the two little tick marks have to be facing each other and the crank shaft notch has to be facing up...at i'm pretty sure.
THANKS!!!
Each pulley has 2 (two) "timing tick marks"... Neither Tic mark is under a letter I or E. Which should I use?
Is it possible the pulley has been installed improperly on the camshafts?
BTW.. "Wooster" is my middle name! (I know, it has nothing to do with this problem ... maybe.. =)
SIBalla23
03-21-2010, 11:33 PM
The i and e stamped on the cam gears face eachother
The exhaust cam is the one closest to the front of the car, so that cam has the e on it and next to that e is a notch, make that face the intake cam marked i until both those letters and notches are horizontal to eachother
cfell
03-21-2010, 11:36 PM
The i and e stamped on the cam gears face eachother
The exhaust cam is the one closest to the front of the car, so that cam has the e on it and next to that e is a notch, make that face the intake cam marked i until both those letters and notches are horizontal to eachother
Thanks, SIBalla!
The link doesn't work...
SIBalla23
03-21-2010, 11:46 PM
private message sent
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JWBombard/SMHSfiSCD9I/AAAAAAAAACU/qbHZwKZrOeY/s576/9-2-08%20001.JPG
prof15
03-22-2010, 01:06 PM
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JWBombard/SMHSfiSCD9I/AAAAAAAAACU/qbHZwKZrOeY/s576/9-2-08%20001.JPG
is that the position that it supposed to be right?
is that the position that it supposed to be right?
Yes!
slavrenz
03-22-2010, 04:03 PM
is that the position that it supposed to be right?
Lol, he wouldn't give you a pic of the wrong way to install the belt (inout)
cfell
03-22-2010, 08:41 PM
That's the 2.0 (FS) motor cam positions.
Thanks for the EXCELLENT pic!
prof15
03-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Lol, he wouldn't give you a pic of the wrong way to install the belt (inout)
I just wanted to make sure..lol because for some reason I thought the big marks were the ones that had to be aligned and didnt realize about the actuall mark.
I just wanted to make sure..lol because for some reason I thought the big marks were the ones that had to be aligned and didnt realize about the actuall mark.
The "big" marks are no marks at all, they are actually cam sensor trigger notches...
cfell
03-23-2010, 11:14 PM
UPDATE!
Ladies and Gentlemen,
My virtual hat is off to you. We positioned the alignment marks a bit BELOW "horizontal" because otherwise, the lines would be well ABOVE horizontal... this is a factor, it seems is caused by the slack/distance between the cams and the "newness" of the belt.
We chose to go "below" horizontal because as the belt wears/stretches, the marks will tend to align more closely.
The car was assembled and I can attest, it has NEVER run this well in the 40k miles we've owned it.
Thanks to ALL!
slavrenz
03-24-2010, 02:26 AM
I'm glad everything worked out for you. And yes, you want to position the marks slightly low when you install the belt - when you hook up the tensioner, the tension will cause those marks to be pulled level.
mexicansoljah81
04-26-2010, 02:52 PM
getting the same thing done to my car right now as we speak, sensor and timing belt replaced plus some coil packs. All start off with some misfire events while driving. So far 2000 bucks will be spent to trouble shoot the random misfires.
Timing belt was due anyways so might as well get that done now, especially when the zoom zoom has 96000 miles on it right now.
bazooka joe
04-26-2010, 02:57 PM
getting the same thing done to my car right now as we speak, sensor and timing belt replaced plus some coil packs. All start off with some misfire events while driving. So far 2000 bucks will be spent to trouble shoot the random misfires.
Timing belt was due anyways so might as well get that done now, especially when the zoom zoom has 96000 miles on it right now.
$2000????? oh my...timing belt isn't due till 105k...what are they charging you for, i mean you could get a new motor for that money? wow
mexicansoljah81
04-26-2010, 03:12 PM
$2000????? oh my...timing belt isn't due till 105k...what are they charging you for, i mean you could get a new motor for that money? wow
thats the total right now. had a few diagnostic checks, full tune up, right now timing belt and some ignition coils replaced. mech said timing belt needs to get replaced especially since leak near some sensor is starting to show and I should get sensor replaced with timing belt. Some sensor that senses timing belt, i guess. Forgot the name. All this to trouble shoot the random misfire thats going on while i drive.
bazooka joe
04-26-2010, 07:40 PM
either i'm missing something or your getting really screwed....the timing belt/water pump at the most should be 600-700...tune up, plugs wires, coil packs, what another 100? throw in anew egr...even if it was 1000...what in the world could he be doing to be at 2k, and your not done??:confused:
KZL_99ES
04-26-2010, 09:18 PM
it's because he lives on an island...lol
mexicansoljah81
05-01-2010, 05:34 PM
it's because he lives on an island...lol
thats true. 85 bucks for labor every hour. The have much confidence in my mechanic. I know he aint pulling my chain on parts and labor. Just sucks that all this is happening within 2 week period. Costing me so far 1600 bucks.
Brcobrem
05-14-2010, 11:33 AM
That makes sense. Like I said above, there's no way that you should have to worry about your tensioner spring being loose on that pin if the tensioner is working properly - that SOB was really stuck.
Now I hope that this stays fixed permanently. Personally, I would've returned the tensioner and gotten a new one, but I also have a second vehicle to drive, so...
Anyways, glad everything worked out for you.
Hi again gozz, slavrenz, et al,
You all are not going to believe this. After doing this timing belt job 2 times(including the water pump the first time), I have radiator fluid running out of the timing belt cover this week. So I got about 3 months of service out of the car without incident. Looks like I've got to go for a 3rd disassembly to determine why the new water pump failed. Btw, the pump was torqued onto the block per specs with the block surface thoroughly cleaned and the new gasket that came with the pump. The water pump belt was only tensioned enough to keep it from making belt squeal noise. I can't win on this job.
Arg!
Brcobrem
Brcobrem
05-15-2010, 04:03 PM
Hi Forum Members,
Just a follow up on this latest leaking coolant episode:
I jacked it up, lowered it onto a safety jackstand, removed the wheel and splash cover from under the engine, took off the radiator cap and laid back down under the car. Without any further disassembly, I aimed a flashlight at what looked like a dry water pump weep hole (under the pump), and waited about 5 minutes . . . then came the green radiator fluid drop out of the hole. It's not that easy to see the fluid coming out, but it does build up inside the pump, then sort of ooze out and run down the side of the pump.
Here is Rockauto's part number for that piece of garbage:
CARDONE SELECT Part # 5523126 {New; Includes Gasket #PWP897}
Btw, this is supposed to be a new, not remanufactured pump.
I called Rockauto and they would not refund my money, but offered to send me a replacement Cardone pump. I told them no thanks and make sure that they tell their product managers that this pump is substandard and a real time consuming job to replace.
Here's what I'm replacing it with ($60US):
GMB New Water Pump
AdvanceAutoParts.com No. 145-1410
OE # FS01-15-010F
Manufactured to the exceed original equipment specifications. Certified to TS16949, ISO14001 and OHSAS 18001 standards for quality in manufacturing, safety and environmental practices.
Product Features:
•New precision-ground, one-piece bearing assembly sealed to withstand contaminants and lubed for life to provide long, trouble-free service
•Patented unitized ceramic seal for leak-free performance
•100% of all the manufactured water pumps are leak tested after assembly
•Exact OE fit
Also - the pump belt was definitely not over tightened. I can push it down about 1/2" and turn it 90 degrees with little effort. I only tighten belts enough to make them stop squealing. At least that's how I do it.
So I get to *practice* this whole freaking job one more time.
Happy Saturday!
Brcobrem
slavrenz
05-15-2010, 10:50 PM
Hi Forum Members,
Just a follow up on this latest leaking coolant episode:
I jacked it up, lowered it onto a safety jackstand, removed the wheel and splash cover from under the engine, took off the radiator cap and laid back down under the car. Without any further disassembly, I aimed a flashlight at what looked like a dry water pump weep hole (under the pump), and waited about 5 minutes . . . then came the green radiator fluid drop out of the hole. It's not that easy to see the fluid coming out, but it does build up inside the pump, then sort of ooze out and run down the side of the pump.
Here is Rockauto's part number for that piece of garbage:
CARDONE SELECT Part # 5523126 {New; Includes Gasket #PWP897}
Btw, this is supposed to be a new, not remanufactured pump.
I called Rockauto and they would not refund my money, but offered to send me a replacement Cardone pump. I told them no thanks and make sure that they tell their product managers that this pump is substandard and a real time consuming job to replace.
Here's what I'm replacing it with ($60US):
GMB New Water Pump
AdvanceAutoParts.com No. 145-1410
OE # FS01-15-010F
Manufactured to the exceed original equipment specifications. Certified to TS16949, ISO14001 and OHSAS 18001 standards for quality in manufacturing, safety and environmental practices.
Product Features:
•New precision-ground, one-piece bearing assembly sealed to withstand contaminants and lubed for life to provide long, trouble-free service
•Patented unitized ceramic seal for leak-free performance
•100% of all the manufactured water pumps are leak tested after assembly
•Exact OE fit
Also - the pump belt was definitely not over tightened. I can push it down about 1/2" and turn it 90 degrees with little effort. I only tighten belts enough to make them stop squealing. At least that's how I do it.
So I get to *practice* this whole freaking job one more time.
Happy Saturday!
Brcobrem
That sucks to hear man, but don't let one bad water pump ruin the brand for you. That is the exact water pump I bought (because it was new), and I haven't had any problems in 7+ months.
Cardone usually makes very good products. As for your refund, that's just RockAuto's policy - they only stock parts by quality manufacturers, and so they won't refund your money on the premise that every water pump is crap. They just consider it a fluke, and send you a replacement.
Brcobrem
05-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Hi slavrenz,
Thanks for the kind words of consolation. Btw, this time I'm doing the job in a garage and won't have to work out in the baking sun. That is a big plus. I put it up on the jacks this weekend, then promptly re-injured an old shoulder injury moving a washer and dryer. So it will have to sit for a couple days until the shoulder heals up a little.
I did pick up the new GMB water pump. Unlike the Cardone pump, this on has a formed steel impeller (unlike the Cardone which was a machined casting). The gasket on the GMB also aligns 100% with the machined pump surface. The Cardone did not align very well (as you'll see below). I'm Glad to hear that you have had good experiences with your Cardone. Hope that holds true for you.
I've never had time to get all the pics from the original timing belt & water pump job up for the forum (it's on the to-do list), but here's a pic that shows what I just described. The (then) new Cardone is on the left, the original OEM pump is on the right:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Cardone%20and%20OEM%20Water%20Pumps.jpg
Let you all know if anything is different on this go around of the job. I do want to take a good look at that tensioner again. If you recall when the new one "stuck", and caused the engine whining noise that necessitated the 2nd timing belt job, I did not replace it (since it was a new part and I un-stuck it). I'm going to temporarily install the old tensioner (I kept it because it did work), just to see how it pivots on the block and works with the spring (ie. does it pivot and move freely, or does it seem like it's stuck and very hard to pivot).
Regards,
Brcobrem
dmention7
05-17-2010, 07:09 PM
Just a quick note, the tensioner is not supposed to pivot too freely. When fully torqued down, it should provide resistance against pivoting, but not so much that the spring cannot maintain tension. (perhaps you already knew that... in which case, disregard! haha)
When I did my timing belt a few weeks ago, I used a Gates timing belt kit which had a new belt, tensioner, and idler for a very reasonable $160, compared to the prices for new components individually. Alas, it didn't come with the spring, so I had to make a special trip to the dealer for that one $4 part. :p
Brcobrem
05-18-2010, 02:31 PM
Hi deminsion7,
I actually called Gates to ask why their kit didn't include the spring. They said there is some kind of problem acquiring it. Go figure.
Thanks for the heads-up on the tensioner. I wasn't 100% sure if there was supposed to be some resistance, or if it should pivot relatively freely. As a recap, the new tensioner that I originally installed had so much internal resistance, that I had to do the job a second time, and use a hex key to move the roller back off the belt a little (to fix the engine whining noise). When I did that, the roller actually "popped" counterclockwise a little. I think that tensioner is bad. Let you all know what comes of this.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Brcobrem
05-28-2010, 11:42 AM
Hi slavrenz, deminsion7 and et al,
Follow up on my 3rd go around on this job:
Well, the new GMB water pump is in and working fine. Here's a pic that shows the Cardone pump on the left (that leaked out of the pump's weep hole after 3 months) and the original OEM (Bosch I believe) pump on the right:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Cardone%20and%20OEM%20Water%20Pumps.jpg
Here's a pic the shows the new GMB pump on the left (nickle or chrome plated impeller) and the failed Cardone pump on the right (cast machined impeller). Again, also note how the gasket on the Cardone was not cut to match the pump flange precisely:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/GMB%20on%20left%20and%20Cardone%20on%20right.jpg
Here's a top view of the GMB on the left and Cardone on the right. Note the GMB's pulley flange is "notched" which allows you to easily get a ratchet wrench on top of the pump bolt under the pulley flange:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Top%20view%20of%20GMB%20on%20left%20and%20Cardone% 20on%20right.jpg
Here's the wrench through the notch action. Also note a little high temp silicone on the seal. I wiped a very, very light coat on the pump flange, and also on the top of the gasket, and let it dry (to the touch) for about half an hour before bolting on the pump. Make sure the block is clean and dry as a whistle too:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Notched%20pulley%20flange%20allows%20wratchet%20wr ench.jpg
If you were putting a pump into a rocket ship, you might also be interested that the GBM pump weighed 2 (US) pounds exactly, and the Cardon was 2 1/8 pounds. If you look at the above pic, you might find that odd because the GMB has more meat on the cast pump shaft struts.
You may recall that I had to do this job a second time because the new Dayco timing belt tensioner was stuck, making the belt extremely tight, which caused a loud whining noise from the engine. Recall that I then used a hex key, turned it counterclockwise a little, and the tensioner popped out of its stuck position and moved to a more normal position. Here a pic of what the tensioner spring looks like now. Note that the spring coils show it is extended somewhat. Also note that with the belt off, I put a hex key in it and it has some resistance either left or right (perhaps 5 foot pounds), but now pivots somewhat freely as would be expected (ie. it is not locked at one position):
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Tensioner%20spring%20shows%20normal%20coil%20expan sion.jpg
In the unlikely event that your timing belt is new and the water pump fails, you don't have to remove the engine mount and the timing belt (which straddles the engine mount - geeze Mazda!). Just remove the top power steering pump pivot bolt and the two lower power steering pump mounting bolts and pull it up and away, and extract the water pump out the top that way. It's a good time to use a hex key in the clamp that holds one of the hoses into the pump (mine was leaking a little down onto the block and I never noticed it until I was working under the power steering pump. Here's a pic:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Power%20steering%20pump%20out%20of%20the%20way%20t o%20remove%20water%20pump.jpg
There you go. Hope that helps someone.
Regards,
Brcobrem
Brcobrem
05-28-2010, 12:39 PM
Hi Forum,
After doing this job 3 times, I have a little observation about the continuing discussion of aligning the cam shaft marks either perfectly horizontal, or slightly lower than horizontal. I believe it has to do with how you put the belt on.
I used the "perfectly horizontal method and here's how I get he belt on:
1) Have the cam marks perfectly horizontal and a wood wedge driven in to hold them that way (here's that pic again)
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/cams^_spread^_and^_block^_of^_wood^_inserted.jpg
2) Have the tensioner and idler roller on and bolted down. Use the hex key on the tensioner and move it fully clockwise (into the position that makes it easy to attach the spring to the block pin). Put the spring on the block pin with a pair of very long needle nose pliers and make sure the spring seats into the notch on the pin. Leave the tension where it's at for now.
4) Put the belt on the left cam gear, then over the right cam gear, then down around the idler roller, then around the the crank gear.
5) At this point (if you were under the hood and could see this) you should not have sagging of the belt across the cam gears, or down to the block gear. If the belt is not aligning perfectly into the cam's gear teeth or the block gear, then you do not have the marks on the cams perfectly horizontal, or the block gear's alignment notch aligned perfectly vertically with the block mark.
6) Coming back up to the tensioner with the belt, twist the belt a little and it will easily slide over the tensioner's roller.
7) Remove the wooden wedge from the cams. The cams should then roll just a little towards each other (ie. you will have non-horizontal marks now).
8) With the crank bolt screwed in, turn the crank a little, perhaps rocking it backwards and forwards a couple times. The tensioner SHOULD move counter clockwise by itself, back to a normal position (ie. the spring coils will be extended a little now). It the tensioner stays locked in that clockwise position with the spring's coils collapsed (like a spring that wasn't installed), use the hex key and move the tensioner counter clockwise so that you see some air space between the coils of the spring. Here's the pic again:
http://cid-0ba9610cbd3ba347.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Protege%202002/Tensioner%20spring%20shows%20normal%20coil%20expan sion.jpg
Hopefully that will prevent you from having to do this job a second time because the belt is whinning due to being over tensioned by a faulty tensioner.
9) Rotate the crank (4 or 5 times as I recall) and verify all the marks line up.
Now, all that said: If you were to start with the cam markers, aligned slightly downward, put the belt across them, then put the belt over the idler and around the tensioner, and finally somehow manage tp man-handle the belt over the crank gear, all the marks would align perfectly too.
I did read some threads here where people were having difficulty getting the belt on. I think waiting to put the belt over the crank gear as the last step probably causes that pain.
Just a marketing opinion of one, but I happen to like my method better . . . no man-handling of the belt required.
Regards,
Brcobrem
dmention7
05-28-2010, 02:00 PM
One note on proper alignment of the cam/crank gears. If you have a helper hold the belt on the crank gear, then pull the belt tightly across the idler, over the right cam gear, and then across the left cam gear, the teeth should be aligned correctly. The problem with going from left to right is that the tensioner will allow as much as two teeth of misalignment between the crank and cams. If everything is pulled tightly across the idler, there is no chance of misalignment.
Though, after a little trial and error, I did find it easier to go from left to right. On my first try, the intake cam was one tooth off both the crank and exhaust cam, but at that point it wasn't too difficult to adjust the one cam by one tooth.
Howster
06-07-2010, 05:58 PM
I am thankful for this write-up and at the same time a bit lost. I just picked up an '01 Protege DX 1.6 and am getting ready to tackle this job. I have one question so far:) Is the procedure the same for the 1.6?
slavrenz
06-08-2010, 03:02 PM
I am thankful for this write-up and at the same time a bit lost. I just picked up an '01 Protege DX 1.6 and am getting ready to tackle this job. I have one question so far:) Is the procedure the same for the 1.6?
Some of the individual steps are different, but I think the overall process is very similar.
Howster
06-09-2010, 04:24 PM
Thank you Slavrenz! I feel that because of this writup, I am well equiipped with the knoledge to complete this job. I am also sorry to hear about the complications others, including yourself, have run into along the way. Thank you to all who have contributed to this writup.
Howster
Tzar177
06-28-2010, 08:24 PM
If you put the car in gear, should that lock the crankshaft in place?
dmention7
06-28-2010, 08:31 PM
Not unless you have someone standing on the brakes. Best way to loosen/tighten the crank bolt is to put it in 5th and have someone mash the brakes while you turn the bolt. As far as locking the crank to keep it from moving while you work, there's no real need. The crank is easy to turn to any position.... it's the cams you want to lock in place before removing the belt. The valve springs tend to make the cams want to "snap" into one of 4 positions. Of course you don't have to lock them, but it makes it easier to get the new belt back on.
Tzar177
06-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Do these timing marks look ok or are they facing downward too much?
http://www.msprotege.com/members/Tzar177/DSC01427.JPG
dmention7
06-28-2010, 09:07 PM
That looks right. Once you get the belt on and turn the crank a revolution or two, it'll be pretty obvious if you're a tooth off
Tzar177
06-28-2010, 09:12 PM
That looks right. Once you get the belt on and turn the crank a revolution or two, it'll be pretty obvious if you're a tooth off
Yea i've rotated the engine a few times and they still meet up like in the pic. I know they don't align perfectly horizontal and that their suppose to be slightly downward. Just wasnt sure if maybe it was one tooth downward too much
dmention7
06-28-2010, 09:30 PM
Yeah, it's hard to say 100% for sure with the cover on there...
slavrenz
06-29-2010, 08:17 AM
Those marks are fine.
Tzar177
07-12-2010, 09:46 AM
Here is a better pic without the cover. The cams are in one of the four spots it wants to snap in. Is it fine to put the belt on as is, or do I need to pull those marks up a tad?
http://www.msprotege.com/members/Tzar177/DSC01447.JPG
Tzar177
07-12-2010, 09:55 AM
Any tips on how to keep the crank lined up? I've had the belt over the cam gears then pulling on over crank, but then when I tighten the tensioner, the crank always moves outta sync. For the tensioner, I remove the bolt. Should I leave it bolted on and just remove the spring?
Dermen
07-14-2010, 12:23 AM
So I am going to tackle this soon as my car has about 97k miles. I'm trying to get a complete list of the parts I need. Let me know if I am missing anything from my list.
timing belt
idler & tensioner + spring
serpentine belts
water pump + gasket
valve cover gasket + RTV silicone
coolant
spark plugs
M8 1.25pitch bolt x2
I'm debating what brands to go with. The idler/tensioner/belt is $220 from mazda, the gates kit is $170, the delco kit + belt is $120 which makes me a little afraid of using it.
slavrenz
07-14-2010, 11:35 AM
So I am going to tackle this soon as my car has about 97k miles. I'm trying to get a complete list of the parts I need. Let me know if I am missing anything from my list.
timing belt
idler & tensioner + spring
serpentine belts
water pump + gasket
valve cover gasket + RTV silicone
coolant
spark plugs
M8 1.25pitch bolt x2
I'm debating what brands to go with. The idler/tensioner/belt is $220 from mazda, the gates kit is $170, the delco kit + belt is $120 which makes me a little afraid of using it.
The Gates kit is only $130-140 at RockAuto.com. In fact, that's where you should get all of your parts (except the tensioner spring, I still had to order that from the dealership).
Also replace the camshaft and crankshaft oil seals. They're only a few dollars each, and as has been made known via several recent threats, if they start leaking later on, you have to remove the timing belt and everything else to replace them.
Cheap insurance, IMHO.
imjustagirl
07-14-2010, 11:43 AM
Unless the idler & tensioner are bad you really dont need to replace them... just the spring.
T Belt
Water Pump
Front Seals
VC gasket
Drive Belts
Plugs (if needed)
Tensioner Spring
Coolant
That should really be all you need.. :)
CTt3P5
07-14-2010, 12:32 PM
But how would you test them prior to removing them?
My wallet would be happy if I excluded them from my list but since my car is my dd, I can't afford to find out that I NEED them upon removing them and then have to wait for them to arrive so I can put the car back together.
ucMP3
07-14-2010, 12:44 PM
But how would you test them prior to removing them?
My wallet would be happy if I excluded them from my list but since my car is my dd, I can't afford to find out that I NEED them upon removing them and then have to wait for them to arrive so I can put the car back together.
+1
Preventive maintenance is never a bad thing anyways...
dmention7
07-14-2010, 07:44 PM
Yeah, IMO it's worth the extra bit of money to change out the idler/tensioner and be done with it. If rockauto has the Gates kit for $140, that's a great price. And like others have mentioned, you're going to have to go to the dealer for that tensioner spring. I was not able to find it anywhere else. Kinda stupid that they can't put a $3 spring in that $140 kit.... but it is what it is.
Dermen
07-14-2010, 08:22 PM
Thanks for the tip about rockauto, they also have the spring for $3. I'll look into the camshaft/crankshaft seals. Are they difficult? Any how-tos?
MaxPower
07-14-2010, 09:55 PM
The crankshaft seal and cam seals are not difficult, but you have to be careful not to score anything when removing them. The Protege factory manual has instructions, and the Miata timing belt FAQ has good tips (http://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html).
meGrimlock
08-03-2010, 07:09 PM
not to threadjack but....
i am lazy, and got a 20% coupon from the dealer, so i took it in and i asked to replace the tensioner, tensioner spring, idler, crankshaft and camshaft seals (esp wanted the seals incase there were any leaks related to my oil consumption).
looking at my receipt, none of those are on there. instead i have 2 new belts--i even told them the belts were not even a year old--water pump, water pump gasket, timing belt, and mazda coolant. i assume the rest was "inspect and replace if necessary."
are these deal breakers? i really don't want to drop off my car for another day, it takes a lot of planning to get a ride to the dealer and back during rush hour, but if those items should have been replaced then should i call them in the morning and raise a concern? the mileage on the car is over 87,000 miles
if this should be a new thread please let me know. thanks.
-meGrimlock
Dermen
08-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Well I'm stuck on the crank nut. I bent the two M8 bolts I had, but they were a little long. Tomorrow I'll have another go with shorter bolts so they won't bend as easily. If that doesn't work I'll try the starter trick.
When doing the starter trick does everything need to be plugged back in? I unplugged the cam sensor, the PS pump, and the ignition coils. I imagine it doesn't matter but thought maybe the ECU would freak out and not even let me attempt to start it.
Dermen
08-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I finished the job. The starter trick worked great for undoing the crank bolt. lol I can't believe it has been a week since I started, I've been lazy not finishing it until now. I didn't run the car yet since it is late and I was dirty. Tomorrow will be the moment of truth, although I rotated the engine and checked at least 5 times to make sure the timing belt wasn't off.
My new water pump had a bent fin on the impeller. I'm getting to test out rockauto's return service, so far so good, they emailed me a return shipping label. I went and got one from advanced auto, it looks like better quality and cost the same (I think GMB was the brand).
Update: Everything is running great. Thanks a bunch of the how-to and all the info everybody else provided.
MUSTANG1965
02-24-2011, 11:03 PM
Many thanks to gozz for his article and photos on the 1.8 timing belt replacement. It is the best i have seen . My car is a 2000 mazda protege, 161,000 miles and still running strong. In cold weather it has an intermittent noise coming from the timing cover area and i suspect the tensioner and or idler may be at fault. Also a while back had a check engine lite issue and fluttering tach with hesitation. A sharp local tech found a small hole in the plastic plenum leading to the throttle body, causing bad readings to the air sensor. Problem fixed with new plenum. A great car with no payments.
MUSTANG1965
03-14-2011, 08:57 PM
Just completed 1.8 timing belt and tensioner job. Running great. My crank bolt was really tough to get undone. Not having impact tools, I removed the engine oil pan and carefully wedged an oak hammer handle between the crank counterweight and the engine block. Also a good tip for lining up the cam marks is to use a vice grip to hold the front cam. Allow the back(rear) cam mark to point slightly downward.(one degree) As the tensioner spring is attached it will cause a slight counterclockwise rotation to bring the mark horizontal. Also go with a high quality tensioner, preferably Mazda. Thank you to all members for their help. Take your time on the marks, it is critical !!! or the engine will not run right.
Rusty
03-18-2011, 11:35 PM
I am going to do the timing belt tomorrow. Seals for the crank and cams came with the kit, but since I have never had an oil leak I'm thinking of skipping that part, unless I see some oil seeping out. Any thoughts on that. I have 70k miles on the car, '02 Protege5.
bazooka joe
03-19-2011, 12:33 PM
you really don't need to do it until 105k...i'm at 153k and will be doing it this summer once the car is off the road...i'm not recommending you wait this long, but 70 is early.
Rusty
03-19-2011, 04:57 PM
I'm doing the timing belt because it's lived in harsh hot weather conditions for 9 years and the drive belts are cracked very badly. And I drive it like it's stolen.
There are no oil leaks so I'll probably leave the seals alone and just hang on to them.
So far everything was easy except the alternator. I bought a longer 3/8 drive ratchet with a swivel head for good measure. No problem after that. I did find it's easier to get the top alternator bolts loose if I removed the cruise control diaphragm.
Rusty
03-20-2011, 09:51 PM
There was a little oil under the crank, so I replaced that seal. I had a little trouble with it, so I hope I didn't create a bigger problem. First, I scratched the metal under the old seal. Not much but it is visible. I tried to polish it with some sand paper, but it didn't change much. Then I oiled the new one and when I started to press it in it started crooked. I used a piece of PVC pipe that fit great so I tapped on the other side until it evened up. I couldn't see any deformity at all as it was going in. I put it in flush and it looks fine. I'll be mad if I created a leaker.
The only other problem I created was getting the cams and crank out of timing. I put the belt on so that the crank hits TDC and the marks line up right after the #1 intake valve finishes closing. Number one is the first counting from the left(I hope). If anybody thinks I've got it wrong, please tell me before I put all the covers and drive belts back on.(nervous)
georgecastaneda
03-21-2011, 11:40 AM
thanks for this useful write up, After 1 day of trying to set up the timing belt right today i just Finnish my car by following this write up.
thanks a lot!!
slavrenz
05-01-2011, 11:52 AM
That sucks to hear man, but don't let one bad water pump ruin the brand for you. That is the exact water pump I bought (because it was new), and I haven't had any problems in 7+ months.
Cardone usually makes very good products. As for your refund, that's just RockAuto's policy - they only stock parts by quality manufacturers, and so they won't refund your money on the premise that every water pump is crap. They just consider it a fluke, and send you a replacement.
UPDATE: My Cardone Select water pump just crapped out on me as well, so maybe they really are junk? Little ticked at having to redo the timing belt job...
projectmx
05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
just completed the water pump and timing belt swap... i had to have a guy with an 1100 ft/lb impact gun bust the crank bolt loose for me cause nothing else worked and there was no way i was taking the oil pan off. thanks a lot for the write up!
Tzar177
05-02-2011, 12:22 PM
UPDATE: My Cardone Select water pump just crapped out on me as well, so maybe they really are junk? Little ticked at having to redo the timing belt job...
How do you determine if the water pump craps out? Car over heats?
Rusty
05-02-2011, 03:42 PM
just completed the water pump and timing belt swap... i had to have a guy with an 1100 ft/lb impact gun bust the crank bolt loose for me cause nothing else worked and there was no way i was taking the oil pan off. thanks a lot for the write up!
I put the socket on the bolt and a piece of pipe over the end of my 15" breaker bar and bumped the starter for a second. I unscrewed it the rest of the way with my fingers.
I put it back on as tight as I could get it, but didn't have enough room for my torque wrench. I only got it up to 80lb, so I drove it to the Goodyear tire store and asked them to put 120 Lbs on it. No charge, 1 minute's work.
How do you determine if the water pump craps out? Car over heats?
It makes noise and/or leaks.
Pmpkinhead
05-26-2011, 10:42 PM
Ok here we go. The dealer will be doing the T-Belt/W-Pump next week. Here is the parts list for what they ordered. Let me know if there is any additional parts that should be added to the list! I'm also adding new MAZDA Alt / AC Belts because I can't get my Gates brand belts to stop squealing. The dealer said the Mazda belts will have a better fit and will stop the squeal.
FSY1-12-205 T-Belt, FS01-15-010F W-Pump Kit, FS02-15-116 W-Pump Gasket, FSD7-10-235 Vlv Cvr Gasket, FS01-12-711 Spring. $900.00 inc Loaner Mazda 3.
PS: High quality dealer sales and service! (have been going there since 1989)
Rusty
05-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Most of us home-mechanics replace the idler pulley and the tensioner pulley. The tensioner pulley can wear out. It's made to have a stiff pivot motion so it can't bounce, even with the spring holding it tight. The idler probably is safe to skip, but I can't see doing one without the other. Tell them if there is any sign of oil to replace the crank and/or the cam seals. They're cheap and quick. You don't want oil getting on the timing belt, and you wouldn't know it until it was too late. Good luck, tell us how it turns out.
Pmpkinhead
05-28-2011, 02:03 AM
Thanks, I'll relay the info and I'll give a follow-up on Wednesday.
Pmpkinhead
05-31-2011, 11:12 PM
It took one day and the car is all set. No oil leaks and the pulleys were in good shape per the dealer. $870.00 for 3 belts, 1 water pump, and a couple gaskets. They said they changed all of the coolant too. The loaner car was included. The two Gates Belts (Napa Auto) are available for $5.00 Shipped each (excellent condition). Let me know and I'll ship them pronto.
nraray
06-02-2011, 09:48 AM
Excellent post. The manual only gives so much info. This is quite detailed. Thanks Ray
Rusty
06-02-2011, 11:44 AM
I'd say, for someone who's in a position to swing it, $870 is well worth the benefits of having a well maintained car, and saving your knuckles and curses.
As for me, I've always enjoyed busted knuckles and cursing. When it comes to cars. For other things, I follow my wifes advice and Just call the Man! http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/rknrusty/Smileys/icon10.gif
HombreDeFamilia
06-23-2011, 07:28 PM
Primo walkthrough. And for all the guys out there having trouble with that crank pulley bolt, an impact wrench (even an electric like the one i just bought (DeWalt, 345 ft.-lb.) with 300+ ft.-lb. will zip that thing off in literally two seconds, found that out yesterday :). Make sure you apply a good high-temp silicone sealant (I like the red Permatex) right next to the cams where the gasket on the cyl. head cover stops (technically, you should replace aforementioned gasket as well), very important, seems to be the only thing missing out of this write-up. Cheers indeed!
projectmx
06-24-2011, 06:33 AM
i had a 600ft/lb gun and it wouldn't take the crank pulley bolt off i finally had to go to harbor freight and get theight one with i think 940 ft/lb torque gun
LEXi73
08-03-2011, 12:24 PM
So I'll be doing all this soon on my MSP... great info in here. I did this to my Miata a few years ago, so this should be somewhat similar. I've read through all the posts and it seems that the total price of this job is about $200? Below is a list of all the parts that I'm gonna get from rock auto, individual pieces all spelled out for anyone like myself to understand. Am i missing anything? This might be helpful to people doing this in the future too.
Water Pump
Water Pump Gasket
Timing Belt
Tensioner Pulley
Tensioner Spring
Idler Pulley
Valve Cover Gasket W/Grommets & Spark plug tube seals
Power Steering and Air Conditioning Belt
Water Pump and Alternator Belt
OPTIONAL ITEMS THAT I'M ALSO GETTING:
Camshaft Seals
Crankshaft Seal
Spark Plug Wires
Spark Plugs
So anything I'm missing besides Coolant? Also I'll probably replace the thermostat while I'm in there.
All the items listed above price out to about $270 on rock auto...does this seem about right?
Rusty
08-07-2011, 12:08 AM
That sounds pretty close. Make sure you get a new water pump, not a used one.
Here's the kit I used. All of the brands were top tier. http://www.amazon.com/Timing-Belt-Mazda-Protege-2002/dp/B003BPKV8C/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1298765124&sr=1-4
I had to get a couple of better tools like a good long 3/8" ratchet with a swivel head. That helped in a couple of places.
Take off the cruise control diaphragm and the alternator is really easy to access.
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