False Horsepower Rating

[KeizerSpeed3]

Has anyone considered filing a claim against Mazda for falsely advertising the HP of the MS3?
I have an '08.5 MS3 and have always felt that the car didn't have the power in the lower 3 gears that it should have. I knew that there was some torque management stuff going on, but until recently didn't know how much.
From what I could find searching the net, the estimated peak Engine (not wheel) HP in gears 1-3 is:
1st gear: ~170HP
2nd gear: ~225HP
3rd gear: ~238HP

As a result, it's not until 5,500 rpm in 4th gear that we actually see the full 263HP that's advertised. That turns out to be at 85mph.
So, Mazda is advertising a 263HP car that can not achieve that power rating legally on any public road.

If my memory is correct, there was a lawsuit in Ohio for a similar reason that resulted in lawnmowers not being rated by HP any more. The basis of the lawsuit was that the HP ratings on lawnmower engines were the "peak" power ratings of the engines, which typically occurred at 5,500~6,000 rpm. But during operation of the lawnmower, the optimal blade speed was 3,600 rpm. Therefore the manufacturers were misleading the consumers as the peak horsepower was never achieved during the intended operation of the mower. If you check the local hardware store, you'll see that almost all mowers are now advertised by their torque rating.

Anyways, where I'm going with this is that it seems all of us MS3 owners have an opportunity to either return our cars and get our money back for false advertising, or force Mazda to offer an option to remove the power limiting in the first 3 gears.

I see a lot of members have spent thousands of $$ trying to boost the performance of their cars to essentially get around something that is intentionally limiting the power in the first place. The biggest and best single performance boost the MS3 could get would be to take the shackles off of the gears 1-3.

Anyone else agree?

[fishdonotbounce]

Nope. Sorry but unless you have millions to spend on extremely good lawyers you won't even get the case to be tried in court. There are plenty, if not most cars that are the same exact way. That's just how it is.

[ForceFed]

LOL...Your kidding right.

Good luck...your gonna need it.

You definately sound like a Kid with a Half-cocked attitude with this argument....
Sorry..but thats how I see it.

[NCZ13]

i loled.

[oaklandopen]

The biggest and best single performance boost the MS3 could get would be to take the shackles off of the gears 1-3.

Anyone else agree?

sorry, totally dissagree with pretty much everything you said, especially the "taking off the shackles" statement. if you wanted full power in 1st and 2nd gear you'll be putting the local tire dealer's kids through college. there's a reason why the first few gears have the limit on them, and a reason why there is traction control that assists in the prevention of total spinout of the front wheels

about the power rating....short answer is that the 263hp is BHP, or you can call it crank hp or even hp to the flywheel. it is merely the engine rating of power, not the power to the wheels. if you truly wanted to get a rating of the hp of the engine only you'd have to take it out of the car and hook it up to an engine dyno. theres a golden rule about how to find out power to the wheels based on manufacturers power numbers but i can't really remember the percentage off the top of my head. i want to say 15% but im not completely sure and that's only a general idea

as for wanted to go up against the flying M i would tell you that there was one vehicle mazda made that has already had this problem, and probably worse off than this car. when the rx-8 came out back in i believe 2002 or 2003ish their ratings from mazda were wayyyyyyy off, and basically anyone that put it on a dyno found that out. i think the difference was like 50+hp or something crazy. either way nothing came of it and i think either mazda stopped bullshitting after ppl found that out or they actually increased the hp in the renesis, either way im pretty sure there was no refund or recalls so good luck trying it on this car

and im pretty sure the only vehicles that would be recalled for lack of rated hp would be the uber-expensive and super rare ones like the ferraris or lambos, or maybe even the z06 which has "505hp" on a decal on the fenders. now try being one of those owners to find out that you only have 70% of the hp the manufacturer is claiming.

[MikeHTally]

They're 263 HP at the crank, not the wheels. There is always parasitic loss. Automatics are worse than manuals.

[Darth Vader]

Seriously folks, manufacturers haven't measured hp at the flywheel, w/o accessories, etc. since 1972.

However, there are a variety of testing conditions that can make a car deliver more or less **measured** hp on a dyno. HP is a CALCULATION not an outright #. TORQUE is a measurement, HP is TORQUE/TIME. Thus, calculational factors can affect the outright #. Wheel dynos DO NOT measure hp, they measure torque and calculate HP, using a variety of correction factors. The validity of those correction factors is what makes alot of the variation + the old saw that some cars are Wednesday cars and some are Monday morning.

Wheel dynos are a TUNING tool not an outright measure of power produced. People use them for the bragging rights but, that's not what they are for.

The dragstrip will give you a better idea of real power produced but variation in condition and driver competence can make drawing unequivocal #s difficult.

Production cars almost never produce the rated power levels, due to testing variables. Your best bet is to dyno or race YOUR car, make your mods and, see if it goes better.

[dizzin9]

try doing it downhill.

[Carl.E]

TORQUE is a measurement, HP is TORQUE/TIME. Thus, calculational factors can affect the outright #. Wheel dynos DO NOT measure hp, they measure torque and calculate HP, using a variety of correction factors..

...HP is NOT torque/time. If that were true, the longer your engine held a give torque, the less HP it would make....(screwy)

Power = torque*rotational speed. To use familiar units, Horsepower = torque* RPM/5252, when you measure torque in ft-lbs and RPM is rotations per minute (as opposed to rad/s or any other way of measuring rotational speed). The 5252 part is due to unit conversion.

Therefore, wheel dynos DO measure hp, since they measure the amount of torque your wheels are creating AND the how fast they are spinning. The correction factor is used to be able to compare results from runs done at different atmospheric conditions. It simply adjusts the MEASURED HP number up or down a few percent to make sure people are comparing apples to apples when runs are done in different conditions.

[aaronc7]

yeah i was under the impression that dynos measure horsepower. Last time I went, I was unable to get an rpm hookup so it just gave me HP vs mph....if RPM would have been known then TQ could have been calculated to plot as well.

[kvndoom]

as for wanted to go up against the flying M i would tell you that there was one vehicle mazda made that has already had this problem, and probably worse off than this car. when the rx-8 came out back in i believe 2002 or 2003ish their ratings from mazda were wayyyyyyy off, and basically anyone that put it on a dyno found that out. i think the difference was like 50+hp or something crazy. either way nothing came of it and i think either mazda stopped bullshitting after ppl found that out or they actually increased the hp in the renesis, either way im pretty sure there was no refund or recalls so good luck trying it on this car

It was originally advertised as 250hp (actual hp was 232 manual and 192 auto, if I remember what I read), and Mazda actually did let people who complained return their cars.

But that's apples and oranges, because the MS3's power isn't false, it just isn't where you want it to be. And I personally wouldn't want access to all of its power in 1st and 2nd gear.

[fishdonotbounce]

Can you imagine the tq steer if you did have all that power in 1st and 2nd?


It was originally advertised as 250hp (actual hp was 232 manual and 192 auto, if I remember what I read), and Mazda actually did let people who complained return their cars.

But that's apples and oranges, because the MS3's power isn't false, it just isn't where you want it to be. And I personally wouldn't want access to all of its power in 1st and 2nd gear.

[02stang951]

doesn't a simple reflash such as Cobb eliminate the 1-3 gear boost limit, but i can say i wouldn't want full boost in 1-2nd anyway its bad enough now with all the wheel hop/t-steer and such you would just burn the tires off the line

[kpacker51]

(redp5)



Drive a Protege5 for a day and then the complaining will stop.

[07Speedfreak]

IMO the MS3 has more power than advertised.

[Saskatchewan17]

Um... eh... have you ever punched it from a roll in second gear? No I'm not going to sue Mazda.

[Invictus]

(hahaspit)

[SwampAss]

I probably have 250-260 crank HP in 1st and 2nd. Guess how much faster my car is to 60? I bet it's slower unless I get a dead hook.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

HAHAHAHA! dude give me a break!!! First of all you have boost limit in first and second to prevent torque steer secondly 235hp at the wheels is EASY 263hp at the crank. THATS ONLY 11% DRIVTRAIN LOSSS LOL! the industry standard is 15 to 25%! Do some research before postin such a redicullus thread!

[oaklandopen]

what's the difference between a 263hp ms3 and a 463hp ms3?


nothing, they both go 0-60 in 5.8 seconds

[6SpeedTA95]

wow...this thread is full of ridiculous

First of all I'd be surprised if the car is only making 170ish in first gear, the car pulls pretty hard in first and second...and third for that matter...170ish would be about what a civic SI puts down and this car pulls much harder in first than an SI...even in the vtec...

[SwampAss]

what's the difference between a 263hp ms3 and a 463hp ms3?


nothing, they both go 0-60 in 5.8 seconds


One doesn't have a crank shaft embedded in the fire wall. (pow)

[SPEED3TYPE2]

wow...this thread is full of ridiculous

First of all I'd be surprised if the car is only making 170ish in first gear, the car pulls pretty hard in first and second...and third for that matter...170ish would be about what a civic SI puts down and this car pulls much harder in first than an SI...even in the vtec...

Its makes 170 cause its a speed3 and mazda limits boost in frist and second to prevent wheel spin and tq steer. if you have a spped6 then your get full power in 1st and second cause 4wd

[StealthWyvern]

I suppose you want that 263hp across the entire powerband to...lmfao

[SwampAss]

It probably puts down the same torque as the Si peaked @ 2500rpms. That's why it feels faster.

[6SpeedTA95]

Its makes 170 cause its a speed3 and mazda limits boost in frist and second to prevent wheel spin and tq steer. if you have a spped6 then your get full power in 1st and second cause 4wd

I know all about the boost limiting in an attempt to quell torque steer, but I doubt its that restrictive...also according to MT it only affects the first two gears?

[SPEED3TYPE2]

I know all about the boost limiting in an attempt to quell torque steer, but I doubt its that restrictive...also according to MT it only affects the first two gears?

Yeah its limited to first 2 gears so yeah you get less power this is common knolege I thought LOL!(drunk)

[6SpeedTA95]

Yeah its limited to first 2 gears so yeah you get less power this is common knolege I thought LOL!(drunk)

It is common knowledge but a full 90 hp lower in first gear? I'm not buying that.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

It is common knowledge but a full 90 hp lower in first gear? I'm not buying that.

well 235-170 = 65 not 90 and you get like 8psi in first 12 in second and full 15.6 in third so at half boost (-65hp) is reasonble

[6SpeedTA95]

well 235-170 = 65 not 90 and you get like 8psi in first 12 in second and full 15.6 in third so at half boost (-65hp) is reasonble

OHHH was 170 whp? I misread it I guess I thought the OP said crank hp. Thats a lot more reasonable...especially when you do the HP/TQ conversion at 5500rpm......making sense now.

[MSMS3]

To OP: Mazda's lawyers will hand you your ass along with a bill for lawyers fees for filing a frivilous lawsuit.

What in the hell would you do with full power in first and second gear? Shit, I can smoke 'em at will in both gears and could when at full stock. You do get full power potential in third gear and on up. Our problem is traction, not power in the first two gears.

If anything, their ratings are probably a bit conservative considering that many purely stock cars are dynoing at 240-245 whp.

[6SpeedTA95]

To OP: Mazda's lawyers will hand you your ass along with a bill for lawyers fees for filing a frivilous lawsuit.

What in the hell would you do with full power in first and second gear? Shit, I can smoke 'em at will in both gears and could when at full stock. You do get full power potential in third gear and on up. Our problem is traction, not power in the first two gears.

If anything, their ratings are probably a bit conservative considering that many purely stock cars are dynoing at 240-245 whp.

Yea 240 at the wheels is closer to 275 or 280 at the crank...

[SPEED3TYPE2]

^ Yeah 235 at the wheels is 11% drivetrain loss a fair standard is 15%-25% so 263hp is definatly conservative...

[6SpeedTA95]

^ Yeah 235 at the wheels is 11% drivetrain loss a fair standard is 15%-25% so 263hp is definatly conservative...

25%? In all my dyno days I've never seen anything lose 25% bro...thats a big loss in the powertrain...12 to 15% for manuals seems to be normal 15 to 20 for auto's/awd cars...are you seeing vehicles with 25% drivetrain loss? if so what vehicle?

[oaklandopen]

25%? In all my dyno days I've never seen anything lose 25% bro...thats a big loss in the powertrain...12 to 15% for manuals seems to be normal 15 to 20 for auto's/awd cars...are you seeing vehicles with 25% drivetrain loss? if so what vehicle?

ppl riding donks that take half the hp to turn those stupid 30'' rimmmmmzzzzz!!!!

[6SpeedTA95]

ppl riding donks that take half the hp to turn those stupid 30'' rimmmmmzzzzz!!!!

lol prbably true

[SPEED3TYPE2]

25%? In all my dyno days I've never seen anything lose 25% bro...thats a big loss in the powertrain...12 to 15% for manuals seems to be normal 15 to 20 for auto's/awd cars...are you seeing vehicles with 25% drivetrain loss? if so what vehicle?

yeah I thinkg 25% is a little extreme but thats what youll get if you go to a Dynodynamics 4whd dyno. I think 15% is more reasoble especcailly for a standard... Thats why this thread is reducoulus the guy is complaing for law suit whit 11%loss LOL!!!

[SwampAss]

I think that's Dial soap in that one picture. I hate that stuff. Smells terrible and dries your skin out.

[JMKOOPA]

I think that's Dial soap in that one picture. I hate that stuff. Smells terrible and dries your skin out.

I know right? We should try a lawsuit with Dial. Jk.

[SwampAss]

That would have made a lot more sense if the pr0n pictures were still up.

[ForceFed]

25%? In all my dyno days I've never seen anything lose 25% bro...thats a big loss in the powertrain...12 to 15% for manuals seems to be normal 15 to 20 for auto's/awd cars...are you seeing vehicles with 25% drivetrain loss? if so what vehicle?
My Trailblazer SS AWD has apprx. a 25% Drivetrain loss.

395 HP Rating....Dynoed at 297WHP.
Apprx. 25%.
Just sayin'.

[MikeHTally]

My Trailblazer SS AWD has apprx. a 25% Drivetrain loss.

395 HP Rating....Dynoed at 297WHP.
Apprx. 25%.
Just sayin'.Many large vehicles lose that much. A stock Ram Hemi loses over fifty horses by the time it gets to the drive wheels.

[Peter B]

Um... eh... have you ever punched it from a roll in second gear? No I'm not going to sue Mazda.

+1
I just got my first cute girl to scream in the back seat the other day doing just that. I don't need a dyno to tell me the car is doing what its supposed to. :D


try doing it downhill.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!


To the OP: I would imagine a group like the ASME would have a standard for HP ratings on combustion engines. ASME and other similar ratings are usually conservative, I work with them every day. I would assume mazda would rate their engines to an ASME or similar standard as well. This way they can avoid stupid lawsuits like the one you proposed. All they have to do is prove the engine was rated to a standard test, and as long as they followed the procedure they are off the hook, and you will be paying their lawyers fees for years after I have paid off my college loans.

Besides the limiter in 1st and 2nd gear, the reason you never see the full 263 HP at the wheels was explained to all of us in high school physics class. See if you have your old text book lying around, pick it up and do some reading.

Not trying to be harsh, but nothing is ideal.

[Sport6]

Someone should sue every manufacturer ever who claimed a top speed in a car.

Mazda claims 155mph top speed on the speed3. No road in the U.S. had a top speed higher than 80mph. So they should have only advertised that top speed correct?

Give me a break. We don't live in a country that mandates speeds or horsepower figures (so far). There are limits but it is our choice to suffer the consequences of going over them. Be lucky we don't live in England where they are actually trying out GPS enabled speed limiters..

Go spill some hot coffee on yourself in a drive-thru or slip on a wet floor if you want to make a quick buck the good ol' American way.

[squidmotion]

did you not know about this limited boost/torque in 1st and 2nd gear? it is very well advertised/documented... i knew about this before i bought the car. didn't really care...

with all of the stupid lawsuits being thrown into our courts, and you would like to add this?


don't expect me to sign up for any 'class action' crap... that's for sure. i applaud mazda for trumping all of the other FWD platforms (at least all of the ones i tried out) and delivering a real 'bang for the buck' ride.

[Peter B]

...i applaud mazda for trumping all of the other FWD platforms (at least all of the ones i tried out) and delivering a real 'bang for the buck' ride.

And some of the AWD ones too.... *cough cough 08 WRX cough cough* :D

[Sergius64]

Didn't we learn in another thread that turning off Traction Control while turning on the car was disabling the boost limiter in first couple of gears? That would give you full power in those gears, won't make you any faster though.

[Reyan]

This is comedy to me. Thanks to the OP for a good laugh.

[Sport6]

Didn't we learn in another thread that turning off Traction Control while turning on the car was disabling the boost limiter in first couple of gears? That would give you full power in those gears, won't make you any faster though.

Not true, just disables traction control. Its still limited boost but even that is enough to smoke up the wheels without the traction control.

[essejkcamraw]

no car has the power output they say they do. people buy brand new STI's an go to the dyno an put down 223hp all the time. i cant believe someone would actually make a thread like this... (headshake

[Sport6]

As a result, it's not until 5,500 rpm in 4th gear that we actually see the full 263HP that's advertised. That turns out to be at 85mph.
So, Mazda is advertising a 263HP car that can not achieve that power rating legally on any public road.

If my memory is correct, there was a lawsuit in Ohio for a similar reason that resulted in lawnmowers not being rated by HP any more. The basis of the lawsuit was that the HP ratings on lawnmower engines were the "peak" power ratings of the engines, which typically occurred at 5,500~6,000 rpm. But during operation of the lawnmower, the optimal blade speed was 3,600 rpm. Therefore the manufacturers were misleading the consumers as the peak horsepower was never achieved during the intended operation of the mower. If you check the local hardware store, you'll see that almost all mowers are now advertised by their torque rating.



Also that would only work in this case if Mazda advertised the 263hp, but it was found out it was only achievable at 9,000rpm and the motors had a limiter at 6,000.

[Darth Vader]

...HP is NOT torque/time. If that were true, the longer your engine held a give torque, the less HP it would make....(screwy)

Power = torque*rotational speed. To use familiar units, Horsepower = torque* RPM/5252, when you measure torque in ft-lbs and RPM is rotations per minute (as opposed to rad/s or any other way of measuring rotational speed). The 5252 part is due to unit conversion.

Therefore, wheel dynos DO measure hp, since they measure the amount of torque your wheels are creating AND the how fast they are spinning. The correction factor is used to be able to compare results from runs done at different atmospheric conditions. It simply adjusts the MEASURED HP number up or down a few percent to make sure people are comparing apples to apples when runs are done in different conditions.

Perhaps I'm not being clear, and I think I'm not. I should not have put the slash there, as people might think that I'm making an EQUATION for HP as Torque DIVIDED by Time, which I'm not. Revolutions per MINUTE and the 5252 constant (from the old 33,000 ft-lbf/minute a draught horse is supposed to be able to do) are time measures, thus the Torque applied OVER A PERIOD of time statement I'm actually making.

Dyno CALCULATE horsepower because, you can easily measure directly the linear motion of one horse but, it's pretty hard to directly measure the rotary motion of an internal combustion engine. Torque and RPM are easily measured directly and these form the basis of the horsepower calculation.

An example is a water brake dyno. The more torque is applied to the unit, the more water is needed, until it maxes that value at the torque peak. More water braking is NOT needed at the horsepower peak. Thus the dyno does not respond to HP at all. They used to call dynos "torque meters" for a reason.

[CornerCarver]

This is comedy to me. Thanks to the OP for a good laugh.

I agree. My daily driver is a 2007 WRX. Fun little car, but no comparison to the MS3 as far as power and torque. Both cars are bone stock, and my MS3 pulls so much harder than my WRX.

[SallySpeed3]

Mazda isn't lying when they say MAX power is 263 at 5,500 rpms. They don't mention a gear, because it's irrelevant. The max crank HP according to Mazda is 263, that's the most power the engine can possibly put out. That's what "MAX" means, lol. Thanks for the laugh. Now that will be 500 dollars because lawyers round UP to the nearest hour. Have a nice day.

[bigdaddy]

wherever the fuck you get it, there's always more than enough power for me

[CHICO2003]

and I thought he made a pretty compelling argumment! haha give the guy a break though... at least he created an 'interesting' discussion.

[Peter B]

and I thought he made a pretty compelling argumment! haha give the guy a break though... at least he created an 'interesting' discussion.

Discussion? I thought this was a one sided flame fest! (flame2) :D

[coololddude]

What? Advertisements not telling the truth. Tell me it isn't so!!!

[marashka]

Can care less about the Hp rating. I go by butt dyno, and it tells me that this car makes more than enough power to make my drive entertaining, and when in the mood, surprise folks who think they have fast cars. It also allows me to scare the hell out of my passengers just flooring it in "boost limited" second gear.

[Oneurt]

lol? OP please respond, and let us know how things are going with this situation.

[Nismothecat]

i dont see the point in this argument. when i had my MS3 i got crazy wheelspin shifting into 2nd. if we had full boost in 1st and 2nd it would probably make our cars slower.


what do i know though, it seems filing frivolous lawsuits is an american past time.

[Saskatchewan17]

^What do you have now?^

[pcpower]

From a legal viewpoint I am guessing that Mazda's 263 HP statement is in-line with how other automobile manufacturers estimate their own HP. If something were hugely off in their estimates then I'm sure automobile magazines would have been all over it right when the car was released.

[Nismothecat]

^What do you have now?^

got a great deal on an Evo X.
loved the MS3, but hated the FWD.

[Speedkid]

Nice a evo x can't go wrong with that.

[oaklandopen]

Nice a evo x can't go wrong with that.

i saw something in a car&driver or motortrend about some evo special edition (something like fxx-400 or exx-400 or some shit) that is upgraded from the factory to like 400+ hp. it goes 0-60 in like 3.8.

kicker is that not only does it cost either $70k or $70k more than base price but it's also not offered in the US...europe only

probably shoulda googled before making up some of that shit but i know the 3.8 seconds is what i read

[Nismothecat]

you can get 400 crank hp for about 2k on the Evo X

[oaklandopen]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/26/officially-official-mitsubishi-evolution-x-fq400-coming-to-the/

ok so totally blatent threadjacking. it's the equivalent of $70,000 USD. but for that money you get the driveability and upgraded strength of components that you wouldn't if you were to just do little "cheap" bolt on shit

[Circle9]

Eh, $70,000 will get me a Z06 that will do 3.5 to 60.

[oaklandopen]

Eh, $70,000 will get me a Z06 that will do 3.5 to 60.

true...but 4 doors could really come in handy to some ppl

[Circle9]

I doubt a family man would be dropping $70,000 into a 4 door just so he could carry his kids around.

[HOBDisease]

+1

[Kindred]

I doubt a family man would be dropping $70,000 into a 4 door just so he could carry his kids around.

Especially one that, despite it's power and other goodies, is still based on a cheap econobox.

[xxxmonoxidechil]

my old tiburon was over rated by hyundai when it came out by 4hp. hyundai gave every current owner a $100 check, or $200 store credit for the lie.

so this say's hyundai is quite beyond mazda in quality, even AFTER purchase where it really matters. kinda sad. :(

[RotorDad]

Has anyone considered filing a claim against Mazda for falsely advertising the HP of the MS3?
I have an '08.5 MS3 and have always felt that the car didn't have the power in the lower 3 gears that it should have. I knew that there was some torque management stuff going on, but until recently didn't know how much.
From what I could find searching the net, the estimated peak Engine (not wheel) HP in gears 1-3 is:
1st gear: ~170HP
2nd gear: ~225HP
3rd gear: ~238HP

As a result, it's not until 5,500 rpm in 4th gear that we actually see the full 263HP that's advertised. That turns out to be at 85mph.
So, Mazda is advertising a 263HP car that can not achieve that power rating legally on any public road.

If my memory is correct, there was a lawsuit in Ohio for a similar reason that resulted in lawnmowers not being rated by HP any more. The basis of the lawsuit was that the HP ratings on lawnmower engines were the "peak" power ratings of the engines, which typically occurred at 5,500~6,000 rpm. But during operation of the lawnmower, the optimal blade speed was 3,600 rpm. Therefore the manufacturers were misleading the consumers as the peak horsepower was never achieved during the intended operation of the mower. If you check the local hardware store, you'll see that almost all mowers are now advertised by their torque rating.

Anyways, where I'm going with this is that it seems all of us MS3 owners have an opportunity to either return our cars and get our money back for false advertising, or force Mazda to offer an option to remove the power limiting in the first 3 gears.

I see a lot of members have spent thousands of $$ trying to boost the performance of their cars to essentially get around something that is intentionally limiting the power in the first place. The biggest and best single performance boost the MS3 could get would be to take the shackles off of the gears 1-3.

Anyone else agree?

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt60/Rotordad/yourthread3jv.jpg

[mckraut]

Shocking that the OP hasn't said anything since the first post. :)

[oaklandopen]

I doubt a family man would be dropping $70,000 into a 4 door just so he could carry his kids around.

but there are ppl who do just that. let's not forget we (now as it seems) live in a 2 tier society. so for every family person that gets a used 4 door civic theres someone else getting a 4 door mercedes.

i took this pic a few months ago...the guy had a kid in a car seat in the back. i'll bet even though he loves his car he hates that it's only 2 doors and he has to buckle up his kid in the back

http://h.imagehost.org/t/0086/gtr.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0086/gtr)


Especially one that, despite it's power and other goodies, is still based on a cheap econobox.

like the ms3? lol

[MSMS3]

Shocking that the OP hasn't said anything since the first post. :)

I noticed that too. And that crock about there being a power hold back in third gear and not getting full power until late in fourth is just flat wrong. Realize that I have some modest mods. But I'm running stock ECU tune. This attached chart shows that I develop full power (actually max power) at the very beginning of THIRD gear. While the ECU limits torque and therefore power in the lower two gears, there is absolutely no ECU hold back by the beginning of third, only 4.5 seconds into a WOT run.

BTW, brief sharp vertical spikes are electrical system artifact and should be ignored. Also note that this is real time accelerometer data collected on the open road. Aerodynamic drag is significant after you get in third gear. This pulls down the power -- you never see this effect on a chassis dyno.

[MikeHTally]

Shocking that the OP hasn't said anything since the first post. :)Happens a lot on the forums I visit. A "Run-by posting"!

[KeizerSpeed3]

Sorry, guys.
I've been away on business this week and just got back into town.

Several people have questioned whether or not it was serious or not..... the answer is 50/50 yes and no.

I knew that in general more would disagree than agree, but on the other hand it still pisses me off that a car manufacturer doesn't have to provide full disclosure.
As I said when I bought the car, I knew there was some power limiting in 1st and 2nd gears, but honestly, I thought it would still deliver over 200 hp in each gear.
A buddy at work has a an '07 Golf GTI with a 6-speed Manual, and I gotta say that up to 60 it feels like it pulls just as hard as my Speed3. I thought the MS3 should have been able to leave his ass in the dust.

Again, the point is that Mazda sold a lot of these cars by prominently advertising the 63HP advantage it had over the Civic SI and GTI. In most real world driving, the power advantage just isn't there.

How could you not agree that it should have been documented somewhere in the Mazda literature exactly what we were buying?

What if you bought a High Def TV and found that it ran in normal resolution from 8:00AM to Noon every day, because the manufacturer decided you just don't need that much High Def?

[Saskatchewan17]

I'm tellin' you man, punch it from a roll and wave buh-bye to those civics, gtis, evos, stis, 350zs and the like.

[Nismothecat]

Sorry, guys.
I've been away on business this week and just got back into town.

Several people have questioned whether or not it was serious or not..... the answer is 50/50 yes and no.

I knew that in general more would disagree than agree, but on the other hand it still pisses me off that a car manufacturer doesn't have to provide full disclosure.
As I said when I bought the car, I knew there was some power limiting in 1st and 2nd gears, but honestly, I thought it would still deliver over 200 hp in each gear.
A buddy at work has a an '07 Golf GTI with a 6-speed Manual, and I gotta say that up to 60 it feels like it pulls just as hard as my Speed3. I thought the MS3 should have been able to leave his ass in the dust.

Again, the point is that Mazda sold a lot of these cars by prominently advertising the 63HP advantage it had over the Civic SI and GTI. In most real world driving, the power advantage just isn't there.

How could you not agree that it should have been documented somewhere in the Mazda literature exactly what we were buying?

What if you bought a High Def TV and found that it ran in normal resolution from 8:00AM to Noon every day, because the manufacturer decided you just don't need that much High Def?

to be honest with a fwd car i dont think you will get much faster to 60 than an MS3. there is so much wheelspin in the first 2 gears that with all 263 hp you would probably be slower.

[MikeHTally]

The motor delivers 263 hp +/- at 5,500 rpm. No one makes that claim as wheel horsepower. A top-fuel dragster makes more ponies at the crank than it puts on the ground.

[SallySpeed3]

Again, the point is that Mazda sold a lot of these cars by prominently advertising the 63HP advantage it had over the Civic SI and GTI. In most real world driving, the power advantage just isn't there.

I don't know how you drive, but in every day driving I DEFINITELY feel the power this car can deliver. At times I've felt like it's too much, but that's only when my wife is in the car, or other people and I don't want to scare them. 0-60 is pretty unimportant to me because any "racing" that I do involves downshifting on the freeway and shutting up the civic or scion that keeps trying to show me up. But as far as 0-60, speed 3's ARE quicker than the SI and GTI. I guess I can see your point about being misled because of the power restrictions, but honestly, it is definitely for the better and Mazda has never tried to hide the fact that they've programmed the ECU that way. Like others have said, find a straight road and floor it in 2nd gear and I don't see how you could feel disappointed.

[gonerogue]

...
As I said when I bought the car, I knew there was some power limiting in 1st and 2nd gears, but honestly, I thought it would still deliver over 200 hp in each gear.
A buddy at work has a an '07 Golf GTI with a 6-speed Manual, and I gotta say that up to 60 it feels like it pulls just as hard as my Speed3. I thought the MS3 should have been able to leave his ass in the dust.

Again, the point is that Mazda sold a lot of these cars by prominently advertising the 63HP advantage it had over the Civic SI and GTI. In most real world driving, the power advantage just isn't there....

You're talking out of your ass. Your butt dyno is not reflective of real world tests and analysis. First gear gets to about 25 MPH before you have to shift, second gear is still 20-25 more HP than the GTI and as far as I know, 3rd gear does not have boost limited. The 0-60 on a stock manual GTI is probably a second or more slower than the MS3. Does he have mods on his GTI?

You're right if you don't feel the power advantage in most real world driving because you should be shifting at around 3k at that point, which is about where the boost is really taking off, but you should understand that caveat if you have this car. If you do a lot of highway merging, then you should feel the power advantage in the MS3 over just about any other car in its class.

I just thought about this, but...if you don't feel the TORQUE difference between the MS3 and a Civic SI, something is either wrong with you or with your car.

[KeizerSpeed3]

Guys, I still don't understand why the majority of posts either:
A) Attack me personally, or
B) Defend that Mazda shouldn't have to disclose the actual HP in each gear, or
C) That whatever power the car makes is "plenty".

A) How and why does attacking me personally make you feel better about yourself?

B) When we paid for the car, believe me, they made sure we accounted for every dollar we handed over. If we either tried to withhold some of the payment, or information about our financial situation, Mazda would not be defending you.

C) If the factory power is so tremendous, then why does Mazda itself (not to mention COBB, AEM, etc..) offer so many power upgrade parts that most guys on this board have purchased. If you put some RX-8 18x8 wheels on the front with some drag radials and want to go to the local dragstrip, there should be a way to defeat the power limiter, as that setup will easily handle the extra power. If you don't believe you can personally handle the extra power in the lower gears, that's fine, but why tell someone else that they can't?? What are you, a Democrat?

[oaklandopen]

Guys, I still don't understand why the majority of posts either:
A) Attack me personally, or
B) Defend that Mazda shouldn't have to disclose the actual HP in each gear, or
C) That whatever power the car makes is "plenty".



A) you're on a public forum that is full of ppl who will either help you or put you down (the ones that put you down tend to reply and type faster)

B) does your big mac EVER look like this one when you buy one from mcdonalds?

http://a.imagehost.org/0768/bigmac.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0768/bigmac)

C) 263hp IS plenty for a FWD car. it's up to the driver to learn how to optimize the power to get the numbers they want (0-60, 1/4 mile, around autoX)

[gonerogue]

Guys, I still don't understand why the majority of posts either:
A) Attack me personally, or
B) Defend that Mazda shouldn't have to disclose the actual HP in each gear, or
C) That whatever power the car makes is "plenty".

A) How and why does attacking me personally make you feel better about yourself?

B) When we paid for the car, believe me, they made sure we accounted for every dollar we handed over. If we either tried to withhold some of the payment, or information about our financial situation, Mazda would not be defending you.

C) If the factory power is so tremendous, then why does Mazda itself (not to mention COBB, AEM, etc..) offer so many power upgrade parts that most guys on this board have purchased. If you put some RX-8 18x8 wheels on the front with some drag radials and want to go to the local dragstrip, there should be a way to defeat the power limiter, as that setup will easily handle the extra power. If you don't believe you can personally handle the extra power in the lower gears, that's fine, but why tell someone else that they can't?? What are you, a Democrat?



A) How and why does attacking me personally make you feel better about yourself?




What are you, a Democrat?


Just thought I'd point out some irony.

You are not being attacked personally. Your idea to start a class action lawsuit is being attacked as frivolous and baseless. I said that you were talking out of your ass as a lead in to the butt dyno anecdote you provided. Do I know why Mazda limited boost in 1st and 2nd? No, you'd have to ask a Mazda engineer for that. However, I could hazard a guess that it's due to safety and comfortable driving.

If you're looking to drag race and take full advantage of all boost, run different tires, stress parts, etc., then you should go the whole 9 yards and void your warranty by fiddling with the ECU as you see fit. You are more than welcome to do that, no one is stopping you, but you will not receive support from Mazda for going that route.

The fact that you say you can't feel a difference between a MS3, Civic SI, and GTI in normal driving is borderline laughable. To me, that statement alone reduces the weight of your statements. I hope a mod locks this thread.

[GoFast]

done