Summer project - Engine replacement #2

[CustomMSP]

Yo!

For those who find these sort of things interesting please see the original engine replacement thread here (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123663347)

"I'm going to try a different approach this time around. I'm still not forging anything as I never had a problem with broken rods or other engine internals. Both times the engine started blowing smoke. It's a common fault of any beat up FSDE with higher mileage as I've come to realize."

Change of plans from the original plan stated above, because the cylinder bores are past allowed width and will require an overbore. As you can imagine it makes the most sense to go forged at this point.

The goal: To build a strong daily driver
The formula: Bring up VE, keep boost down

Current parts in possession;

- T3/T4 turbo
- Steedspeed T3 exhaust manifold
- WRX 440cc injectors
- AFC V1
- P5 ECU
- 3.5" thick FMIC
- VTCS-less intake manifold
- 2.5" turbo back
- Turbonetics Evo wastegate with 7 psi spring
- AWR baffled oil pan
- Exedy Stage 1 clutch
- M-Factory helical LSD
- Doc B. Racing oil pump

Parts to buy;

- Arias 8.5:1 pistons
- K1 rods
- ARP head studs

Engine and headwork;

- .020" overbore
- Milling
- Removal of all sharp edges in the CC, piston valve relieves and exhaust ports

Pic of the finished short block;

[orng1]

Is that where you've been hiding? In the garage nursing a blown motor?

[greasemonkey524]

Do you have any certain numbers in mind? (hp/tq) Seems like an interesting build for a reliable DD. Definetly curious to see how this works out for you.

[CustomMSP]

Is that where you've been hiding? In the garage nursing a blown motor?

No blown motors on my record! (dance)

[CustomMSP]

Do you have any certain numbers in mind? (hp/tq) Seems like an interesting build for a reliable DD. Definetly curious to see how this works out for you.

My goal for the previous build was 230whp/tq. I'm still set on that number.

[SIBalla23]

Subbing

[1moreMPH]

My goal for the previous build was 230whp/tq. I'm still set on that number.

too low. You'll be past that with just the above-mentioned parts. where do you like your boost set?

[theEZV]

good luck, hitting those numbers shouldnt be too hard with that setup

[Speed3.5]

So you finally decided on SteedSpeed T3 instead of cumstom route lol

Looks like your back in states, I'd like to take a look at the work once you start, lmk I have a day off so I can stop by.

[CustomMSP]

too low. You'll be past that with just the above-mentioned parts. where do you like your boost set?

no more than 10psi on that turbo. Keep in mind I have the p5 ecu with greater stock timing.

[CustomMSP]

good luck, hitting those numbers shouldnt be too hard with that setup

Thanks!

[Speed3.5]

You need a Quaife man , stop wasting time with stock one.

[TheMAN]

if it was a used welded LSD, then that explains everything

[orng1]

You pulled it out? There was already one guy that thought it broke and it ended up being something else. Sucks to hear that you broke again.

[StealthWyvern]

It was used prior to welding. Can you explain further?

Thanks.

mirco stress cracks prior to welding.

[CustomMSP]

This became a winter project..brrrrrrrr. Update for those of you interested;

1. TIG welded LSD snapped as predicted by TheMan. It doesn't look like the welds penetrated deep enough. I bought the M-Factory Helical LSD...excited about that.
2. Engine is apart for an overhaul...Work is being performed by our FS expert Kooldino.
3. .030" Cometic HG. A few thickness down from the current .070" Cometic HG.
4. Doc. B coated oil pump

That's it for now.

[HondaEat-R]

Nice man. Two questions: Why a T3/T4 for a daily w/ low boost ? The spool is gonna be a bit late on that turbo, but maybe that's what you're looking for to avoid sudden drivetrain schock due to early boost on-set. #2 Why are you running a NA ECU w/ the SSAFC ? Just using the SSAFC as an additonal injector controller ?

[CustomMSP]

Nice man. Two questions: Why a T3/T4 for a daily w/ low boost ? The spool is gonna be a bit late on that turbo, but maybe that's what you're looking for to avoid sudden drivetrain schock due to early boost on-set. #2 Why are you running a NA ECU w/ the SSAFC ? Just using the SSAFC as an additonal injector controller ?

Hey,

I prefer the gradual build up of power that this turbo offers. The turbine side is larger so it offers less back pressure, too.

The NA ecu is easier to tune, because there are no dips in the afr mid power band like with the MSP ecu. I'm using it as an interceptor not an additional controller with 440ccs. Plus the added timing compensates for the thicker HG I believe.

[Speed3.5]

So the work has begun then, when do you think you'll be done ?

how is that new LSD looking ?

[CustomMSP]

So the work has begun then, when do you think you'll be done ?

how is that new LSD looking ?

I'll let you know about the LSD when I receive it. It looks like it's a quality piece based on all reviews I've read on Honda-tech. Their CS is amazing, too.

[HondaEat-R]

Hey,

I prefer the gradual build up of power that this turbo offers. The turbine side is larger so it offers less back pressure, too.

The NA ecu is easier to tune, because there are no dips in the in afr mid power band like with the MSP ecu. I'm using it as an interceptor not an additional controller with 440ccs. Plus the added timing compensates for the thicker HG I believe.

Right on. Should be sweet.... I know you're the person who made the 440cc vacuum tuned map, correct ? Are you using a Scan Tool to monitor short and long term AFR's while idling / in vac and tuning the AFC in vac accordingly, or will you just let the ECU compensate for the 440's in vacuum ? I'm installing a SS-AFC tomorrow, and swapping out my DSM 450's for WRX 440's for plug and play reasons. Very curious as to how I should approach the vacuum portion of the fuel map. Tune it w/ no scan tool, or just leave it and let the MSP work out the trims in vacuum.... I'd appreciate some insight. Thanks

[CustomMSP]

Right on. Should be sweet.... I know you're the person who made the 440cc vacuum tuned map, correct ? Are you using a Scan Tool to monitor short and long term AFR's while idling / in vac and tuning the AFC in vac accordingly, or will you just let the ECU compensate for the 440's in vacuum ? I'm installing a SS-AFC tomorrow, and swapping out my DSM 450's for WRX 440's for plug and play reasons. Very curious as to how I should approach the vacuum portion of the fuel map. Tune it w/ no scan tool, or just leave it and let the MSP work out the trims in vacuum.... I'd appreciate some insight. Thanks

Yep, I did the initial tuning. Hopefully somebody has picked up from there by now? I did use a scan tool/software to monitor fuel trims. Unfortunately, the ECU will never compensate enough for 440cc injectors on its own. That map I posted is a bit lean in some spots under closed loop, at least on my setup. That's why I took it down. I'll be retuning once the engine is back together, because now it should be at it's peak efficiency.

[HighSpeed]

interesting thread......you might be my hero for a budget build......im gonna keep an eye on this thread and see what you come up with

[Speed3.5]

what type of scan/software tool did you use man ?

[CustomMSP]

what type of scan/software tool did you use man ?

Scan tool - http://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/pc-based/elmscan5-compact.html

Software - http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/pcmscan/index.php

[CustomMSP]

interesting thread......you might be my hero for a budget build......im gonna keep an eye on this thread and see what you come up with

I'm glad that you find it useful :)

[cougar10agREDUX]

hey when i was tuning the NA ECU with 440cc injectors it get pig rich from about -15inHG of vac and less, above like 1500rpms so i had to tune that, it was a pain in the ass with my setup: breather filter on my EGR and my synchronic BOV is open in vac to improve response. but as for idle and everything else the ECU did a good job compensating for the 440's.

i swapped in an MSP ECU and it did a much much better job running the 440's the only points i had to tune was about -10inHG above 3-3500rpms when the stock ecu would dump fuel (NA ecu did the same) which is annoying when your trying to cruise at 70-80mph. i also did a blow through MAF conversion which also helped out a ton, again cuz of my setup. wish i woulda have done it with the NA ECU and see how much better it would have ran.

[CustomMSP]

hey when i was tuning the NA ECU with 440cc injectors it get pig rich from about -15inHG of vac and less, above like 1500rpms so i had to tune that, it was a pain in the ass with my setup: breather filter on my EGR and my synchronic BOV is open in vac to improve response. but as for idle and everything else the ECU did a good job compensating for the 440's.

i swapped in an MSP ECU and it did a much much better job running the 440's the only points i had to tune was about -10inHG above 3-3500rpms when the stock ecu would dump fuel (NA ecu did the same) which is annoying when your trying to cruise at 70-80mph. i also did a blow through MAF conversion which also helped out a ton, again cuz of my setup. wish i woulda have done it with the NA ECU and see how much better it would have ran.

I'm also running a blow-through setup. I should be more clear about the ECU...I was referring to open loop afrs between the two ECUs. The MSP has a dip where the NA doesn't as you probably already know.

[Speed3.5]

I'll be using MSII V3 so it will handle INJ. , I guess that hardware/software combo was able to help you have good idle eh ?
MSII V3 still has somewhat not perfected idle which would be my biggest challenge.

You think you'll have time to dyno ?

[cougar10agREDUX]

I'm also running a blow-through setup. I should be more clear about the ECU...I was referring to open loop afrs between the two ECUs. The MSP has a dip where the NA doesn't as you probably already know.

Ok, yeah. I was talking about closed loop. Closed loop the Msp ecu runs the 440s much better than the na ecu.

[CustomMSP]

Change of plans...going forged. First post updated.

[Speed3.5]

What made you change your mind ?

Will the engine be ready before you leave ?

[CustomMSP]

What made you change your mind ?

Will the engine be ready before you leave ?

The block has to be overbored. It's either spend almost the same money on forged pistons or get new OE overbored mazda ones. Not a tough choice hehe.

Nope.

[CustomMSP]

Another problem with reusing OE components is torquing the factory TTY bolts to spec during re-assembly. It's a pretty complicated process and requires special tools which adds to your cost factor as well as the level of complexity. If not done correctly, there's no guarantee that the engine will hold together. This is another big reason to go aftermarket forged.

[Jaysanooch]

TTY? It's bothering me now..lol.

[rooster]

torque to yield

[Boosted_Speed]

are they tuning the stock ecu?

[CustomMSP]

are they tuning the stock ecu?

I'm using the SS AFC fuel tuner with the P5 ECU and 440cc injectors. I tuned it myself.

[MAZDA_SPEED]

Subbin, So you tuned the SS not the ECU?

[Boosted_Speed]

Subbin, So you tuned the SS not the ECU?

i think he did tune the ss but the way he was explaining things before i thought he was tuning stock ecu

[03.5MSP]

Awesome Toly, glad to see you are going forged with the MSP.. When you plan on finishing everything up?

[CustomMSP]

i think he did tune the ss but the way he was explaining things before i thought he was tuning stock ecu

The AFC intercepts the MAF signal going to the ECU, so in essence I'm tuning the stock ECU using the AFC.

[CustomMSP]

Awesome Toly, glad to see you are going forged with the MSP.. When you plan on finishing everything up?

Yeah, I'm kind of happy about the outcome so far. Probably another month until it's all done.

[CustomMSP]

Picked up the engine today. Waiting on differential install/shimming. Hopefully the car will be fired up early next week!

[03.5MSP]

Picked up the engine today. Waiting on differential install/shimming. Hopefully the car will be fired up early next week!

Awesome, how long you been in NJ/ how long you staying??

[Speed3.5]

So your in NJ now right ?

[Speed3.5]

So your in NJ now ?

[WillP]

I am looking to do a build similar to yours Custom. How does the P5 ECU run the 440s??? Do you use any other form of engine management?? To make this happen?

[CustomMSP]

I am looking to do a build similar to yours Custom. How does the P5 ECU run the 440s??? Do you use any other form of engine management?? To make this happen?

Hey. I use the Split Second Air/Fuel piggyback controller or commonly known as the SSAFC on this forum.

[WillP]

I don't have any experience with tuning. How hard is it to tune for the 440s to work? I saw that you posted some info about software. Will that he me?

[CustomMSP]

I don't have any experience with tuning. How hard is it to tune for the 440s to work? I saw that you posted some info about software. Will that he me?

You should read this thread; http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555

[Speed3.5]

NICE, finally back.
What the MSP condition ?

[CustomMSP]

First post updated with a few pics

[Speed3.5]

damn man, who came up with that idea to weld the EWG on manifold ?
Perfect welding though , lol

[CustomMSP]

damn man, who came up with that idea to weld the EWG on manifold ?
Perfect welding though , lol

Yours truly!

[Speed3.5]

you got TIG welder ?
that 3" down pipe needs to be done, any possibility in near future ?

I guess its better you welded it that way, no much room to do it the usual way.

[CustomMSP]

you got TIG welder ?
that 3" down pipe needs to be done, any possibility in near future ?

I guess its better you welded it that way, no much room to do it the usual way.

I had a shop do it. Which 3 in. dp? I'm using a 2.5" which is plenty large for my goals.

[Speed3.5]

I had a shop do it. Which 3 in. dp? I'm using a 2.5" which is plenty large for my goals.

I'm talking about mine , lol
I've been looking for a shop that would do TIG welding, would they bother working on down pipe from scratch or they too busy for that ?