Cold air intake suggestions

[Kyrosfactor]

I am wanting the AEM cold air intake any other suggestions?

[8.5MS3]

From what ive heard injen has a good cai also, why not an sri?

[MSMS3]

You'll like the AEM. I have the second generation MSCAI, which is just a rebranded AEM.

Car and Driver and Road and Track both tested this CAI and got 20 whp gains. They all probably do close to the same thing, but this is a very high quality product with good, clear install instructions.

I am very happy with mine.

[djthom]

cp-e xcel cai is quality

[Jacobra]

cp-e xcel cai is quality
Gotta go with this guy. The cp-e is an excellent intake. Makes great gains and sounds epic. Its also cheaper than the mazdaspeed one.

[ncspeed21]

i just recently switched from my cobb sri to my injen CAI!!
Both are really good quality but i am in love with the injen!! haha

[eg6motion]

For aftermarket... Injen Black CAI
For Mazda: Er....Mazdaspeed CAI

[coyfish]

Injen is the only intake I have never read a problem about. No air straightener issues, no fuel trim issues, no install isues, gives top gains . . . at least thats why I bought my injen. Any of those brands should do you fine though. CPE is just overpriced.

[MaikuMS3]

SRI and CAI comparison. i didnt write this. just copied and pasted.

============

Cold Air Intake (CAI)
PROS: Since its farther away from the engine it get colder air wich carries more oxygen thus creating bigger explosions in the engine thus giving more horse power.
CONS: Since its a longer pipe it takes longer for the air to get to the engine (less throttle response), since its closer to the ground there is a risk of getting water into the engine causing it to stop.
Neutral: Poorly designed CAIs can gain little, no, or even lose power.

**The cold air intake may have risks but they can be avoided by intaling a bypass valve which is designed to take in large volumes of air with a sudden thrust of the gas pedal and will safely level off and switch to your primary air filter as you coast on the highway. **

Short Ram Intake:
PROS: Smaller pipe so air response is faster, almost no chance of water getting into engine.
CONS: Since it is closer to the engine it heats up when the car is at a stop and delivers hot air with less oxygen molecules causing the HP to go down.
Neutral: Louder, deeper sound- pro to some, con to others

** Temperature difference is gone when the car is in motion, there is enough air flow to forceably scavange hot air out of the engine bay to be replaced by colder air. **
**However, SRIs with a well designed heat shield can lessen the issue of hot air.**

===========

[MaikuMS3]

i want mazdaspeed CAI but it is taking forever...

also, my friend's brother is working for mazda racing team and he will ask the day of release and pricing soon... i hope

but injen sounds good.

[Darth Vader]

SRI and CAI comparison. i didnt write this. just copied and pasted.

============


**The cold air intake may have risks but they can be avoided by intaling a bypass valve which is designed to take in large volumes of air with a sudden thrust of the gas pedal and will safely level off and switch to your primary air filter as you coast on the highway. **


===========

can you tell me what the heck you're talking about here? You say to install a "safety valve" to allow unfiltered air to be ingested into the engine if you suddenly poke the gas pedal? WTF? Sounds complicated and seems to pose at least as many risks as it solves.

Please tell me who sells this item as well...I'm sure it's right next to the muffler bearings and blinker fluid.

This whole water ingestion thing is totally overblown. You get more water dripping down on the filter from the leaky fenders of a MS3 than you get from below. Don't drive through deep puddles and all should be just fine. I live on the rainy West coast of Canada and have had no issues.

[eg6motion]

SRI and CAI comparison. i didnt write this. just copied and pasted.

============

Cold Air Intake (CAI)
PROS: Since its farther away from the engine it get colder air wich carries more oxygen thus creating bigger explosions in the engine thus giving more horse power.
CONS: Since its a longer pipe it takes longer for the air to get to the engine (less throttle response), since its closer to the ground there is a risk of getting water into the engine causing it to stop.
Neutral: Poorly designed CAIs can gain little, no, or even lose power.

**The cold air intake may have risks but they can be avoided by intaling a bypass valve which is designed to take in large volumes of air with a sudden thrust of the gas pedal and will safely level off and switch to your primary air filter as you coast on the highway. **

Short Ram Intake:
PROS: Smaller pipe so air response is faster, almost no chance of water getting into engine.
CONS: Since it is closer to the engine it heats up when the car is at a stop and delivers hot air with less oxygen molecules causing the HP to go down.
Neutral: Louder, deeper sound- pro to some, con to others

** Temperature difference is gone when the car is in motion, there is enough air flow to forceably scavange hot air out of the engine bay to be replaced by colder air. **
**However, SRIs with a well designed heat shield can lessen the issue of hot air.**

===========
please don't post crap.
SRI on the MS3 is QUIETER.
You CANNOT install a Bypass Valve on a CAI on a Turbo car...unless you like sucking foam into the turbo and grenading your turbo and possibly motor.
Response is the SAME on a turbo car between the two intakes. Especially since your foot isn't directly connected to the throttle body. Your throttle body opens on the compressed side of the turbo, so there is no response difference.
Your whole post clearly comes from an intake debate regarding NA engines.

[8.5MS3]

There is negligible difference between CAI and SRI. Power gains will be the same. Just be sure whichever you buy has the air straightener otherwise your MAF will be skewed, possibly resulting in a CEL.

Yes cai in theory pull colder air, im not going to get into hydrolocking because it will just start an arguement. Its a pain in the ass to clean/replace the filter when needed.

Any colder air seen by one or the other is negated by the fact it is going into a turbo and being heated to 150 degrees anyway before hitting the intercooler.

[8.5MS3]

Please tell me who sells this item as well...I'm sure it's right next to the muffler bearings and blinker fluid.

I think he sells the exhaust O Pipe too.

http://kalecoauto.com/images/OPipeS.jpg

[matsuda]

Any colder air seen by one or the other is negated by the fact it is going into a turbo and being heated to 150 degrees anyway before hitting the intercooler.

So if the IAT sensor is reading 80 degrees or 130 degrees, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever?

[MSMS3]

There is negligible difference between CAI and SRI. Power gains will be the same. Just be sure whichever you buy has the air straightener otherwise your MAF will be skewed, possibly resulting in a CEL.

Yes cai in theory pull colder air, im not going to get into hydrolocking because it will just start an arguement. Its a pain in the ass to clean/replace the filter when needed.

Any colder air seen by one or the other is negated by the fact it is going into a turbo and being heated to 150 degrees anyway before hitting the intercooler.

I have to respectfully disagree. There are well established math formulas for intercooler efficiency that dispell the idea that IAT's (intake temps at the air filter) don't matter on turbocharged and intercooled engines. The formulas, once you work through them show that IAT very much matters. The formulas start with IAT as the beginning point, because there is a direct one-to-one relationship between change in IAT and change in BAT (boost air temp) coming out of the intercooler.

In other words, if IAT goes up 20 degrees, then BAT (regardless of its absolute reading after coming out of the intercooler), will be 20 degrees higher.

For every 10 degrees rise in temp, there is 1% loss in horsepower. It's not unusual for under hood temps on a hot day sitting in traffic (or in the staging lanes waiting for your next run) to be as high as 170 degrees, while ambient temperature might be in the 80's or lower. This is a huge difference in resultant BAT.

And unless the SRI has direct access to air coming in unobstructed through the grill once the car gets underway, all it is going to get is air that has already had its ambient temp go up by having to pass through the radiator. This is also why factory installed FMIC's always go in front of the radiator, not behind it.

The data also shows that even with access to true ambient air once the car is under way, it takes 15-20 seconds for the change in temps to impact BAT's. But then your drag strip run is over. So is your need for that power if you hit an Interstate ramp after being stuck in traffic.

Do the math: Say there is "just" a 50 degree differential between underhood temps and outside ambient. That's 5% on a 250 horse engine. That's a loss of 12.5 whp at a time you might really need it.

This is also why SRI cars dyno lower unless they open the hood during testing. Even then, power will be down until the engine gets cool air for 15-20 seconds.

The OP wanted to know which CAI to get, not get us into a debate (again) on SRI v. CAI. Apologies, but I just can't let the claims about equal IAT or BAT's go unanswered. Most of the time the differences will be modest. Some times they are huge.

And two piece CAI's once installed, have very easy access to the filter.

[8.5MS3]

So if the IAT sensor is reading 80 degrees or 130 degrees, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever?

Sorry no that is not correct. Intake temps do make a big difference. If you had either intake at that temperature losses would be equal. its the difference between the 2 intakes under same conditions that is negligable


I have to respectfully disagree. There are
well established math formulas for intercooler efficiency that dispell the idea that IAT's (intake temps at the air filter) don't matter on turbocharged and intercooled engines. The formulas, once you work through them show that IAT very much matters. The formulas start with IAT as the beginning point, because there is a direct one-to-one relationship between change in IAT and change in BAT (boost air temp) coming out of the intercooler.

In other words, if IAT goes up 20 degrees, then BAT (regardless of its absolute reading after coming out of the intercooler), will be 20 degrees higher.

For every 10 degrees rise in temp, there is 1% loss in horsepower. It's not unusual for under hood temps on a hot day sitting in traffic (or in the staging lanes waiting for your next run) to be as high as 170 degrees, while ambient temperature might be in the 80's or lower. This is a huge difference in resultant BAT.

And unless the SRI has direct access to air coming in unobstructed through the grill once the car gets underway, all it is going to get is air that has already had its ambient temp go up by having to pass through the radiator. This is also why factory installed FMIC's always go in front of the radiator, not behind it.

The data also shows that even with access to true ambient air once the car is under way, it takes 15-20 seconds for the change in temps to impact BAT's. But then your drag strip run is over. So is your need for that power if you hit an Interstate ramp after being stuck in traffic.

Do the math: Say there is "just" a 50 degree differential between underhood temps and outside ambient. That's 5% on a 250 horse engine. That's a loss of 12.5 whp at a time you might really need it.

This is also why SRI cars dyno lower unless they open the hood during testing. Even then, power will be down until the engine gets cool air for 15-20 seconds.

The OP wanted to know which CAI to get, not get us into a debate (again) on SRI v. CAI. Apologies, but I just can't let the claims about equal IAT or BAT's go unanswered. Most of the time the differences will be modest. Some times they are huge.

And two piece CAI's once installed, have very easy access to the filter.

I agree with what you are saying. That is correct. I believe my original wording was incorrect.

I was stating that under the same conditions the difference in temperature between the sri and cai is negligable. I have the cobb sri and when driving around at any decent speed i typically see IAT 2-5 degrees above ambient. A cai, while sucking in air from a potentially cooler spot still has to route that air through the hot engine bay so it is still warmed, tho perhaps not as much. All i am saying is that at best it would be a 2-5 degree difference. The last thing i want this to turn into is another one of those debates.

When sitting in heavy traffic, or at the line at the strip, the biggest concern is the intercooler being heatsoaked, affecting BAT not IAT since its in the worst damn place it could be. That huge chunk of metal on top of the engine does take a while to cool.

[TheRealDefman]

Injen is the only intake I have never read a problem about. No air straightener issues, no fuel trim issues, no install isues, gives top gains . . . at least thats why I bought my injen. Any of those brands should do you fine though. CPE is just overpriced.

+1 for all other same reasons.

[SCCA_MS3]

i want mazdaspeed CAI but it is taking forever...

also, my friend's brother is working for mazda racing team and he will ask the day of release and pricing soon... i hope

but injen sounds good.

I was able to get my Mazdaspeed CAI. I got it back in April and have had it on the car all summer. Mazdaspeed Released like 600 of them at the time. I have no complaints about the Mazdaspeed CAI so far. My MS3 is my daily driver. Just have to be careful about the water issue. But that is the same with any CAI. Mazdaspeed CAI is protected by the bumper and under molding and sits in front of your drivers side front wheel. Hope this info helps.

[coyfish]

SRI vs CAI fight lives on !!

Its really minimal. They are hard to compare because dynos are often inconsitant. The difference, if any, is so minimal that it is hard to diagnose. You can run the same car 3 times and end up with variance of +/- 3 whp every time. Bottom line is the CAI "MIGHT" net you 1-2 hp more but, because of the longer tube, you will lose a smidget of torque. So the SRI gives more torque than the CAI and better throttle response.

[funksilver07]

I've had both SRI (CP-E Nano) and now I'm running the Mazdaspeed CAI and there's virtually no "seat of the pants" difference in how the car performs. So less torque more torque is a useless debate because you won't feel it when driving down the road. The one thing I have noticed is cooler IAT-BAT temps in hot weather. Which can't be a bad thing. As far as the hydrolock debate, I've run CAI's on virtually all of my cars and NEVER have I hydrolocked my engine. I don't feel dyno numbers are the end all in the argument CAI vs SRI because of the inconsistent numbers we have seen. Not saying it's not a good thing to have a dyno just that we won't necessarily feel the small difference in day to day driving. Once you start moving on the road and air is being pulled into the engine bay the results from both are pretty much the same...get whatever you feel more comfortable with, they both work well and out perform the stock air intake system. (enguard)

[Darth Vader]

I've used the Cobb and the AEM CAI and, contrarily, I think seat of the pants is the only difference between the two. The Cobb made the car more explosive down low, which is of limited value anyway since the car blows its tires off in the low gears stock. The AEM makes the car feel a bit softer and less ferocious but, dragstrip testing reveals no incontrovertible performance advantage to either.

[funksilver07]

Really? That's why this subject is so debated I guess. If you can actually feel 1-2 WHP/WTQ "seat of the pants" more power to you. I'm not sure how you register that without putting it on a graph and seeing it. (killit) I can't believe I'm back in this debate again, I keep telling myself I won't go there and yet here I am, DAMN...haha. (stooges)

[camrycev6]

SRI vs CAI fight lives on !!

Its really minimal. They are hard to compare because dynos are often inconsitant. The difference, if any, is so minimal that it is hard to diagnose. You can run the same car 3 times and end up with variance of +/- 3 whp every time. Bottom line is the CAI "MIGHT" net you 1-2 hp more but, because of the longer tube, you will lose a smidget of torque. So the SRI gives more torque than the CAI and better throttle response.

Huh? Why would a longer tube cause you to loose torque? Conversely, how does a shorter tube give an overall superior increase in torque, but not in HP over the longer tube?

[MaikuMS3]

one thing for sure

need to take off bumper to install CAI, not SRI :D

yes. SRI vs CAI fight lives on!

CAI sounds better or SRI when revving?

[funksilver07]

Not true, I did mine without removing the bumper. No big deal installing the CAI unless your not too mechanically inclined. I'm also not one of those guys who puts my car back to stock when going to the dealer so the argument that the SRI is easy to install/uninstall doesn't really matter, at least to me. Again mis-information that leads to the endless perpetual debate over which one to choose.

[Darth Vader]

Now you're just being a git. I put my CAI on w/o removing the bumper in about 1/2 hour.

Both are monumentally loud, that's for sure....

long tube/short tube, you can't think naturally aspirated when we're talking about turbo intakes. There's little need to manage the airflow to produce torque, as in an n/a car. The turbo draws all it can. What you need is a gigantic volume of preferably laminar air to draw from. The sooner the air column hits the tc, the sooner it gets turned into boost pressure and thus torque production. The long runner and smaller tube diameter of the CAI delays this slightly, making the car slightly less grunty off the very bottom, the SRI + a giant velocity stack (Cobb) accelerates the airflow into the tc, producing a touch more grunt, possibly at the expense of top end flow. That's my theory on my experience with both.

[GoFast]

..... Again mis-information that leads to the endless perpetual debate over which one to choose.

ahh see you are not quite right here....it is the failure to use the SEARCH (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/search.php) function that leads to the endless perpetual debate....

[funksilver07]

I'm with you on that one...

[MSMS3]

Now you're just being a git. I put my CAI on w/o removing the bumper in about 1/2 hour.

Both are monumentally loud, that's for sure....

long tube/short tube, you can't think naturally aspirated when we're talking about turbo intakes. There's little need to manage the airflow to produce torque, as in an n/a car. The turbo draws all it can. What you need is a gigantic volume of preferably laminar air to draw from. The sooner the air column hits the tc, the sooner it gets turned into boost pressure and thus torque production. The long runner and smaller tube diameter of the CAI delays this slightly, making the car slightly less grunty off the very bottom, the SRI + a giant velocity stack (Cobb) accelerates the airflow into the tc, producing a touch more grunt, possibly at the expense of top end flow. That's my theory on my experience with both.

I agree with every word, except the "touch more grunt." Let's not forget that our ECU has a torque control feature that prevents full power in first and second gear, regardless of our intake. First is limited to only about 150 whp or so, and second barely 200-220. So any difference is not going to have a chance to show up until you get in third gear. But at that point, the CAI should do better, especially if the SRI has been in a hot engine bay for awhile before being called on to provide air. IMHO.

[MaikuMS3]

Not true, I did mine without removing the bumper. No big deal installing the CAI unless your not too mechanically inclined. I'm also not one of those guys who puts my car back to stock when going to the dealer so the argument that the SRI is easy to install/uninstall doesn't really matter, at least to me. Again mis-information that leads to the endless perpetual debate over which one to choose.

o ok. so the hole is big enough to fit through the filter.

[JCurry]

I just bought and installed the corksport intake kit, its a short ram kit but also includes the turbo inlet pipe...fit nice with no problems and nice price too, no cel

[Darth Vader]

The ECUs parameters don't change whether you have a CAI or an SRI. I can assure you, with the existing engine calibrations/restriction/why, that the SRI is hotter off the bottom than the CAI.

[ericrapp]

Well how can i not bring forth my opinion? You all have done a reasonable job of not getting sucked in( ha) to the cai sri stone throwing we so often do. In my experience with the Mazda Speed 3, I ordered the MSCAI before delivery in May 07. So i cannot compare. and there is no one around here that has and sri or different cai. So i will tell you this sir. The proof is there. The dyno testing has been done on the AEM (Mazdaspeed) unit. And that is a nice increase in HP i think. Also knowing that you are always pulling the best air in makes me feel safer. As far as changing the dry filter, it is pretty easy but a tight fit and a little more work than an sri. No bumper removal or any malarkey like that. I actually removed the whole thing today to install a turbo inlet pipe. The big point of contention is the HYDROlock issue. This is put forth by the folks who get heavy downpours or drive through deep standing water and suck water into their intake causing big problems. We just had a rainfall that was one of the heaviest i have seen in many years and i was caught driving in it. All i could think was that, this is what those Florida guys are talking about. I drove slow, mostly because i could not see but did go through some rivers it seemed. I was ok. So after all that. I like my intake alot and prefer cold air intakes. Stay with a reputable name and i think you will be fine. And you will definitely feel it when compared to the stock box regardless of which style you choose. Good luck!

[coyfish]

SRI vs CAI

SRI
pros: install / maint a bit easier, no hydrolock, more throttle response, bit more tq
cons: "slightly" less hp (1-2 at the most if any)

CAI
pros: slightly more hp
cons: sligthly less throttle response / torque, hydrlock

[MoSpeed3]

i want mazdaspeed CAI but it is taking forever...

also, my friend's brother is working for mazda racing team and he will ask the day of release and pricing soon... i hope

but injen sounds good.

Any update on when the MS CAI might be avail again? Still not hearing anything from the dealers in my area, wondered if the Mazda Racing Team connection panned out for some inside info? Still waiting too... (sad2)

[HOBDisease]

Had the Cobb SRI on my car, now I have an Injen CAI. To tell you the truth, you can't really feel any major difference between the two although the Cobb, to me, did give a slightly better throttle response. Injen is a bit louder, you can hear the turbo spool better, and it felt better up top. Just my .02

[meicalnissyen]

can you tell me what the heck you're talking about here? You say to install a "safety valve" to allow unfiltered air to be ingested into the engine if you suddenly poke the gas pedal? WTF? Sounds complicated and seems to pose at least as many risks as it solves.

Please tell me who sells this item as well...I'm sure it's right next to the muffler bearings and blinker fluid.

This whole water ingestion thing is totally overblown. You get more water dripping down on the filter from the leaky fenders of a MS3 than you get from below. Don't drive through deep puddles and all should be just fine. I live on the rainy West coast of Canada and have had no issues.


+1
except for the bigger explosions.
I want bigger explosions, thats why I use JDM air, it has bigger molecules and they make bigger explosions

[ericrapp]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding here. There is a valve, if i recall, and i think i do. that prevents hydrolock under a serious influx of water. I seriously do not recall the details but i do remember seeing some info or advert for this a long time ago. so be nice guys. I know if i cannot present facts or pictures or timeslips = fail. just saying. And not for nothing, can you really get JDM air?

[MSMS3]

AEM makes the anti-hydrolock valve. It's on their web site. It is for NA vehicles only. Will not work properly on forced induction intakes.

[ericrapp]

Thanks for the help with my failing memory!

[meicalnissyen]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding here, can you really get JDM air?

[ericrapp]

lol^ thanks

[fooqr]

I just had MS CAI installed by dealer yesterday. Called to check last week on a whim, and parts said they were avail again. Ordered last week, arrived Friday, installed Mon 8/10.

[Haxir]

i was told the best 1 to get is the one from mazda's site. because of it being the same size pipe.

[BrianFiebig]

I have the AEM/MAZDASPEED CAI with the air aligner thingy, and without the hydroshield doodad. Got it off ebay for $100. (GOD I love ebay...). I and a shop tech, noticed a slight hesitation when you pound on it below about 2500 rpm, but I believe this MAY be correctable via throttlebody grounding, and MAY exist on all of them. Unless I missunderstood some reading I have done, air velocity is king for low RPM and down low torque, and volume is king for high revving horses. I have the book upstairs, Ill have to double check. The bigger pipe and longer path WILL slow velocity if only from the added viscosity in the pipe. Im not a fluid dynamics guy, I understand what is happening, but I know I cant explain the hows and whys worth a lick.
DONT BELIEVE THE BS about it sucking in water when it rains. It sits about 6 inches off the ground, in the fenderwell. It gets plenty of air from the vents and from the bumper area, and I took the car thru about 8 inches of standing water (it was late, dark as hell, stopped raining an hour before, and it was on a blind curve) and it never noticed. Got clear, shut down, jacked the car up, and pulled off the cover. BONE DRY. You would have to drive thru retard deep water to worry about it, as In ROAD CLOSED deep. More likely SIT in it with water up over the top of the filter, because if its only partly submerged, its still going to suck more air the water. See a fish tank filter inlet. Thing will suck ONLY AIR if so much as one row of inlets is exposed.
Another mag did an install on an 09 recently (like a month ago...cant remember which) and added an AP. On the stock map, the intake alone dropped the 40 to 70 time by about half a second, and they made note of the same thing you will: With the intake the car doesnt fall flat on its face over 5500 RPM. My Dashhawk says it will spill a pound of boost at about 5000 from 16-17 to 15-16, depending on things, but holds 15-16 pounds from there until you get around to shifting.
I wont get into the whole CAI vs SRI arguement, other then to say that the SRI is probably better when you mash the gas down low, the CAI is probably better up top when volume matters, and when you dump 2 gears and blast off to go around something. But when you are simply cruising at 65-70 miles per hour, it doesnt make a lick of difference.

EDIT: Volume and velocity example: Dual upper intake runners from the SVT Contour. Long, skinny one for low down, kept velocity up for torque low, short fat one for top end high volume. Use a butterfly valve to open the secondary runners when needed. KNEW I I had seed a damn good example when I was selling cars lo those many years ago. See here: http://www.stuff.to/svtbrochure/power.html

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I and a shop tech, noticed a slight hesitation when you pound on it below about 2500 rpm, but I believe this MAY be correctable via throttlebody grounding, and MAY exist on all of them.

The intake tract on the MS3 is all metal, so the throttlebody is already grounded. This trick does nothing for our cars.

[coyfish]

Pounding on it at 2500 rpm . . . you asking for a bent rod . . . I never hit boost unless im over 3K.

Your right the SRI has slightly more tq and the CAI probably has slightly more hp. We are talking 1-2 at the most so the differences are almost neglegible. IMO the car already has enough torque for its own good. It builds torque so low before the turbo even starts spooling which is retarded and uncalled for.

[///M Compact]

EDIT: Volume and velocity example: Dual upper intake runners from the SVT Contour. Long, skinny one for low down, kept velocity up for torque low, short fat one for top end high volume. Use a butterfly valve to open the secondary runners when needed. KNEW I I had seed a damn good example when I was selling cars lo those many years ago. See here: http://www.stuff.to/svtbrochure/power.html

The BMW M42/44 motor had a similar setup back in the '90s. Munich called it DISA(differential air intake control).
Now, who's going to build the first MS3 short ram/CAI hybrid intake? (lol2)

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Pounding on it at 2500 rpm . . . you asking for a bent rod . . . I never hit boost unless im over 3K.



Back in the day, I had a factory turbocharged Sunbird. It did not build boost until 3000 rpm.
No, it wasn`t that gawdawful ugly plastic GT. I found the part numbers and ordered an SE with the GT drivetrain and suspension. A ride like a buckboard and unequal length half shafts... talk about torque steer.

[ericrapp]

My mother in law had one of those. And she used to peel out from the stoplight (her words!) and surprise folks. Little old lady in The Sunbird. Two points to make please. First, I was reading Brians write up and enjoyed the enthusiasm and opinions. Thanks. But i would like to chime in about the low rpm pedal stomping. It turns out that even if you have a big torque # available down low, 2500, 3000 rpms, it is very bad for the bearings and will cause premature wear. It is better to get the R's up before asking for full power for long motor life. I agree with that sentiment from Coyfish after reading up on that aways back. I was doing it when i first got the car because i was amazed at how well it went sixty to eighty in 6th gear when passing starting at 2500 revs! Also, My little 01 dodge neon r/t had a valve to allow more air through the intake tract under heavy throttle. It sounded very noticable, and with an aem cold air on her, she sounded like the secondaries on a four barrel opening ( anyone remember those?{mid life?}. Or even VTEC! oops i said a bad word didn't i. I should be banned.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

sounded like the secondaries on a four barrel opening ( anyone remember those?{mid life?}. Or even VTEC! oops i said a bad word didn't i. I should be banned.

I remember when you couldn`t call yourself a car guy if you didn`t have either a holley "double pumper" or (if you really knew your shit) a hand built quadrajet. Small primaries, massive secondaries. When you hit the gas hard and they opened up you`d swear they could suck a bird in flight right of the air. Best sound was the tri-power setup with three massive two barrels. The center acted as the primaries and the front and rear opened together as the secondaries. That was intake noise.
Say what you want about their inefficiency, but there was little cooler than the sound of a roots blower winding up,too.

[///M Compact]

I remember when you couldn`t call yourself a car guy if you didn`t have either a holley "double pumper" or (if you really knew your shit) a hand built quadrajet.

Believe it or not, I still get called on to rebuild a Q-Jet every now and then.

[ericrapp]

Well my buddy just built his 1970 w30 with the ramrod 350 from the bottom up and it's almost broken in so he opened the secondaries while i was along for a ride. You know it ran the q-jet from the factory! It seemed that the float bowl stuck then smoothed out any thoughts? He just rebuilt it. He has a Holley he is thinking of popping on just in case. Just for fun you guys, i just finished the manual from Inglese induction sysyems for tuning the downdraft Webers on my friend's 1966 Shelby GT-H with a 331. Those are pretty nifty sounding too! Nothing cooler looking than velocity stacks! But the blower whine is awesome, and a good reason to be wary!!

[///M Compact]

Well my buddy just built his 1970 w30 with the ramrod 350 from the bottom up and it's almost broken in so he opened the secondaries while i was along for a ride. You know it ran the q-jet from the factory! It seemed that the float bowl stuck then smoothed out any thoughts?

Try adjusting the tension of the secondary air valve; most people tend to set it too loose. Try setting the adjustment screw at 3/4 of a turn past zero tension.

[BrianFiebig]

Somewhat off topic but...
I agree that two of the cooler sounds in the world are 4V heads opening up and a roots blower spooling. Anyone else remember what a "Clevor" is?
As for roots blowers: I used to sell cars for Ford. the 03-04 Terminator Cobras could get a rise out of any car guy from the sound alone.
But the best sounding car I have ever driven (and the only car I will ever admit to being afraid of) was a very customized 1972 Opel GT. Front end spindled, twisted, mutilatied, and mauled to accept a 351W, bored and stroked to 392, EVERY horsepower trick in the book, porting, polishing, 5 angle valve job, the later EFI heads, custom tubular headers, bigger chevy valves, ETC ETC ETC. And topped off with a Whipple blower. Damn thing would try and hang the hoops in EVERY gear, and if everyone had one, chiropractors would be out of business, it cracked your spine EVERY time.
END OF THREADJACK.
As to pounding it below 3K....
Next time you are out on the highway doing, say 50 mph and you want to go around the fuel tanker, but DONT want to attract the attention of your local state trooper, look at the tach please. It will only be showing about 1750 RPM. Spilling a gear or 2 will probably get you a ticket. SO you change lanes and push in 6th. My dashhawk will start showing 2-4 pounds of boost almost instantly, and you will find yourself at 75 80 in a few seconds. You are NOT going to snap a rod under those conditions.

[ericrapp]

Try adjusting the tension of the secondary air valve; most people tend to set it too loose. Try setting the adjustment screw at 3/4 of a turn past zero tension.I will pass that along to him and his brother, i am sure they will appreciate the suggestion and i, the help.

[ericrapp]

Somewhat off topic but...
I agree that two of the cooler sounds in the world are 4V heads opening up and a roots blower spooling. Anyone else remember what a "Clevor" is?
As for roots blowers: I used to sell cars for Ford. the 03-04 Terminator Cobras could get a rise out of any car guy from the sound alone.
But the best sounding car I have ever driven (and the only car I will ever admit to being afraid of) was a very customized 1972 Opel GT. Front end spindled, twisted, mutilatied, and mauled to accept a 351W, bored and stroked to 392, EVERY horsepower trick in the book, porting, polishing, 5 angle valve job, the later EFI heads, custom tubular headers, bigger chevy valves, ETC ETC ETC. And topped off with a Whipple blower. Damn thing would try and hang the hoops in EVERY gear, and if everyone had one, chiropractors would be out of business, it cracked your spine EVERY time.
END OF THREADJACK.
As to pounding it below 3K....
Next time you are out on the highway doing, say 50 mph and you want to go around the fuel tanker, but DONT want to attract the attention of your local state trooper, look at the tach please. It will only be showing about 1750 RPM. Spilling a gear or 2 will probably get you a ticket. SO you change lanes and push in 6th. My dashhawk will start showing 2-4 pounds of boost almost instantly, and you will find yourself at 75 80 in a few seconds. You are NOT going to snap a rod under those conditions.Ha that was fun to read, maybe i should get one of those to fix my back problems. I was just mentioning that lugging the motor hard from low rs, any motor creates extra load on crank bearings. I can not back that up with fact but i did read it more than once in one of the bazillion automotive publications i ponder. Have you tried a liittle less throttle after downshifting to stay under the Ahem, radar? I know, crazy talk.

[ericrapp]

ps what is a clevor?

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

ps what is a clevor?

Don`t feel bad. You need to either be a major Ford fan or know one who won`t shut up about them. In the day, the high performance designation for Ford was the Cleveland engine. The much more common engine was the Windsor. Parts were available to make it possible to bolt CLEVeland heads onto a windsOR block.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

As far as rpms are concerned, I consider it all a matter of experience and feel. You should know when your engine is "lugging" or loaded too much in low rpms. If everything just goes smoothly with no feeling of the motor needing a second to get its wind, then you probably don`t need to worry about it, but if you step on it and instead of just taking off, the car kind of grunts, hesitates, then finally starts building the rpms, you should have downshifted.

[ericrapp]

Oh that is interesting, i had a 351w a 351c and a 70 LTD with a 400 4V. I knew nothing about them then. I was a kid. I did know which was faster though. Thank you. I guess the higher flowing Cleveland was too good for the Canadians up north.haha

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

/threadjack
Thinking of vehicles that are scary, many years ago (actually more than I care to think about) I met a former drag racer who until shortly before I met him had a seriously old pickup truck as his daily driver. The catch was that he had a built 350 with a 6-71 blower running 10% overdrive under the hood. Talk about traction problems. When I met him he was restoring it to something close to factory condition, although I don`t think they came from the factory with blueprinted flathead V8s. He had tracked down one of the last 40 or so factory four barrel manifolds still in existance for his engine. The only time I ever saw a disassembled flathead. Pretty cool stuff.
//threadjack

[ericrapp]

Hey there, i was considering my experience with our big block four cylinder after rereading this. I considered it a torque monster after my purchase with the numbers published by Mazda and the driving exp. And the sound with the Corksport pulling from 2500 is pretty cool. But i can sense after plenty of seat time, the motor would prefer to be down shifted for the pass. But it should be said that i am often in fifth at 65 having forgotten that sixth is THE cruising gear. I am at 2500 at sixty five. I also have a Mazdaspeed Cai. Combined with my turbo inlet pipe, this has worked very well for me. i do now think, that a turbo inlet pipe shoud be combined with whichever air intake you might choose for maximum flow. I purchased the MSCAI dealer installed, before i rec'd car. Recently added inlet pipe. Seemed to complete the air side of the motor. A 6th gear that could run beyond 160 must be lugging at 60??

[ericrapp]

I am trying to to recover the threadjack but i guess it all ties in. More AIR!

[MSMS3]

I am trying to to recover the threadjack but i guess it all ties in. More AIR!

Yep, I think it's a lost cause now (the original thread). I was about to chime in that I got pretty good at tuning pre-smog Carter four barrel carbs on small block Mopar 340's back in the early '70's when dinosaurs still ruled the Earth. LOL.

Rejetting and tuning carbs is, sadly, becoming a dying art. But they really are dynosaurs compared to ECU managed high pressure direct fuel injection.

[///M Compact]

Yep, I think it's a lost cause now (the original thread). I was about to chime in that I got pretty good at tuning pre-smog Carter four barrel carbs on small block Mopar 340's back in the early '70's when dinosaurs still ruled the Earth. LOL.

Rejetting and tuning carbs is, sadly, becoming a dying art. But they really are dynosaurs compared to ECU managed high pressure direct fuel injection.

I agree. Nevertheless, I'm still going to use my 2002 as a training tool and teach my son the mystical arts of valve adjustment, ignition timing, and carburetor tuning.

[ericrapp]

That is a beautiful thing. I seriously enjoy the bonding i have with my adult children from messing around with cars. This is starting to include their friends too. By the way i mentioned the air adjustment to my buddy who mentioned it to his GTO owning brother who helped rebuild motor and carb. He mentioned he set it to a half turn in. Knew exactly what you were talking about. Well thread jack is complete! Did i tell you about my 318 in the 72 Dart and the link chain used to stop the motor from rotating? This has been fun guys. ps a 20002 ti?

[///M Compact]

I wish it was a ti; maybe someday...

[ericrapp]

That's cool. it is still one of the cars that changed the scene. I cannot think of a better car for teaching driving dynamics. I had a Volvo 144 when i was fourteen from my parents in mint condition, back in 76 to make me go away or get off their back haha. Slow but very well balanced and safe too. it worked. i spent everyday after school and then some driving and learning and driving, then fixing and driving. Never forget these things do we?