Broken PAR gear, again....

[HondaEat-R]

Ok guys I need a little advice. Last week I broke another PAR gear. I know, I know "impossible" or "was it re-built properly ?" It was built by a pro, and NEVER tracked or launched. Last year I broke a tooth off the ring gear, last week I broke a tooth off 5th gear. WTF ?

My question is really what should I do, what would YOU do ?

I can: Buy a donor tranny (626, probe, mx6) and swap in my LSD OR

I can: Just swap in a open dif tranny from one of those cars and just run it. OR

I can: Buy a new 5th gear custom made to any ratio and cut I want from PAR for $$$. OR

I can: Buy the 3rd and 5th GTX gears from Ken, and buy 1st, 2nd, and 4th from OEM Mazda and swap them in my tranny housing onto my PAR shafts...

I'm at a loss here for what to do. I run 13-15psi daily on a built block, and want to keep the car "fun". SO will I just end up breaking stock trannys if I choose to swap in junkyard trannys ?

Ther other part of this is : My PAR gear ratios are not optimal for a turbo car, they are extra short ratio. Ex: in 5th gear cruising at 70mph, my revs are at 4,000rpm dead even. The car is def fast with these gears BUT, it's all acceleration and no top speed, also not allowing the turbo to spool to it's full potential. My gear set would be sick for a NA track car or even daily (loud though). Bottom line, I need to decide soon because my car has been down for a week already.

Here are MY PAR ratios: 1st: 2.818 2nd: 2.00 3rd: 1.540 4th: 1.227 5th: .960

Here are stock tranny ratios: 1st: 3.307 2nd: 1.842 3rd: 1.313 4th: .970 5th: .755

As you can see, my 1st gear ratio is more desireable than the stocker, but after that it just goes down hill.... I mean shit, look at my 5th compared to a stockers 4th. There almost the same. It's like my car is a 4 speed but with a short 4th. I could use any valuble input from you guys. Mainly, how long do you think a stock tranny ( junkyard or new) will last at 15 psi ? I'm at a loss here. Sucks

BTW: I bought my car with these gears in it, and i think SlowmotionMSP bought the gear set from TRI-Point racing off this forum, not sure though.

[KrayzieFox]

How did it break? You just shifted into 5th and the trans committed suicide?

[HondaEat-R]

Nope, wasn't even shifting into 5th. Just cruising in the bottom gears, then the tooth off of 5th jammed up my ability to shift into 2nd, 4th, reverse. Took it out and 5th was broke. no damage to other gears though. What would you do ???

[03.5MSP]

Im really interested as to why the gear broke... Im wondering if the short ratios have anything to do with that... Honestly you shouldn't be breaking PAR gears, because in comparison Mazdaspeed2003.5 has stock gears that are IIRC shoot peened and cryo treated and he is pushing almost 500whp. I hope you figure it out and get the car back up and running.

[HondaEat-R]

The gears I have are the 1st gen gears that PAR made for tr-point racing...the gears PAR make NOW are much stronger but still, PAR says they should hold the power I make...which i'm unsure of how much i make, lol. Advice people, help lol. WWJD ?

[KrayzieFox]

I would stop spending massive amounts of cash on those gears if they keep breaking.. but I don't know enough about these transmissions to give you any good advice besides that. I just got my first 5-speed (yellow MP3) about a month ago so I'm not the guy to be listening to about transmissions.. however I do know that those PAR gears are super expensive and supposed to be damn near indestructible. If you broke two already, I would stop buying them..

And Jesus would sell the car and get a Prius lol

[boostdprotegelx]

dude. those gears have a warranty.. i think lifetime.. talk to dino @ speedcircuit

or sam at crossover auto.. both are dealers I THINK!

[03.5MSP]

dude. those gears have a warranty.. i think lifetime.. talk to dino @ speedcircuit

or sam at crossover auto.. both are dealers I THINK!

As long as he is using the NEO tranny fluid...But yeah talk to Dana or Sam.

[TheMAN]

not bashing the PARs here as I have no experience with them....

from what I learned in school, straight cut gears are NEVER as strong as helical cut gears
helical gears are the stock gears (except reverse)

now the reason why many race cars are using straight cut is:
-it's easier/cheaper to machine
-there's less side load therefore if case or bearing weakness is an issue, straight cut gears "solves" the problem
-it does not need to have as much width as helical gears, which means reduced with allows for larger synchro or dog cut assemblies to hold power better

[HondaEat-R]

As long as he is using the NEO tranny fluid...But yeah talk to Dana or Sam.

I use NEO 75/90 synthetic, and I've talked to PAR many many times and there IS NOT a lifetime warranty, trust me.

[HondaEat-R]

not bashing the PARs here as I have no experience with them....

from what I learned in school, straight cut gears are NEVER as strong as helical cut gears
helical gears are the stock gears (except reverse)

now the reason why many race cars are using straight cut is:
-it's easier/cheaper to machine
-there's less side load therefore if case or bearing weakness is an issue, straight cut gears "solves" the problem
-it does not need to have as much width as helical gears, which means reduced with allows for larger synchro or dog cut assemblies to hold power better


All of those things school taught you are correct. You've been paying attention. Tooth profile will determine strength in addition to the "style" of cut. IE: helical or spur. Our stock helical cuts have a puny tooth base/ profile compared to the PAR straights. Also, the PAR's are actually a softer compound designed to withstand impact and abuse, rather than being built for longevity. BUT

On a side note, this thread isn't really meant for pontification about why PAR gears are breaking, but more so for me to get suggestions on what I should do now. I want those of you who have experience breaking trannies, to tell me what you did, and also what kind of power can a stock tranny take. I'm seriously considering buying a junker tranny and swapping it in.

Does anyone know the price of brand new gears from MAZDA ? ?

[HondaEat-R]

I would stop spending massive amounts of cash on those gears if they keep breaking.. but I don't know enough about these transmissions to give you any good advice besides that. I just got my first 5-speed (yellow MP3) about a month ago so I'm not the guy to be listening to about transmissions.. however I do know that those PAR gears are super expensive and supposed to be damn near indestructible. If you broke two already, I would stop buying them..

And Jesus would sell the car and get a Prius lol


LOL, In all seriousness, I'm not sure why I ever strayed from owning Nissans and Toyotas but, I'm going back to Nissans and never looking back. I <3 sr20det.

[KrayzieFox]

LOL, In all seriousness, I'm not sure why I ever strayed from owning Nissans and Toyotas but, I'm going back to Nissans and never looking back. I <3 sr20det.

You strayed cuz Mazdas (MSPs in particular) are a blast to drive, and have a whole lot more character to them ;)

[zuku26]

Subbin' for info on Trannies.
I NEVER use 5th gear due to fear of blowing the tranny

[03.5MSP]

I would recommend getting a junker tranny with less than 100k if possible.... Swap the LSD into it and take it from there. Also make sure you check out the 3-4 shift fork, because many people recently have been haveing issues with third gear popping out, and when my tranny was rebuilt my shift fork needed to be replaced as well... AS far as handling power, I and others would probably recommend staying under 300whp on a stock tranny.

[Ricktalife]

AS far as handling power, I and others would probably recommend staying under 300whp on a stock tranny.

i thought the limit was 250whp?

[03.5MSP]

i thought the limit was 250whp?

There is no set "limit" per say.... But there are multiple people that have been running over 250whp on the stock tranny for some time without breaking major components... But that's not to say that you cant blow a tranny with 200whp.

[Outlawstar98]

I never hear of anyone else breaking Par gears, I would have to say its your short gear ratio. Those gears should not break so easly. I would Get a new set of Par gears and sell your 1-4th gears. But make sure you get near stock, or longer gear ratio. Because that is way to short for a turbo application. the Tri-Point were not turbo'd cars.

[Outlawstar98]

i thought the limit was 250whp?

Most trans for our cars est. about 250-300 before they break. All depends on the car. Each MSP is different for some oddreason, some break ALOT more then others. But If I knew someplace around me I would just go get my gears cryo Treated but I have no clue where to look to get that done.

[jeffmsp]

when you are running a sticky tires, a monster clutch, solid mounts, a build lsd and msp axles the next weak link is..

[HondaEat-R]

I never hear of anyone else breaking Par gears, I would have to say its your short gear ratio. Those gears should not break so easly. I would Get a new set of Par gears and sell your 1-4th gears. But make sure you get near stock, or longer gear ratio. Because that is way to short for a turbo application. the Tri-Point were not turbo'd cars.

The reason they're breaking is because they were the first few sets made for Tri-point, and you're right to say that those tr-point cars weren't turbo. PAR confirmed this over the phone with me several times. These gears would be really great for a NA car or ok for a lower power turbo, or any car looking to circuit race or autocross, especially autocross. But you're right that the ratio does a turbo car no justice, trust me.

[HondaEat-R]

I never hear of anyone else breaking Par gears, I would have to say its your short gear ratio. Those gears should not break so easly. I would Get a new set of Par gears and sell your 1-4th gears. But make sure you get near stock, or longer gear ratio. Because that is way to short for a turbo application. the Tri-Point were not turbo'd cars.

I don't have 3,500 for a new set of gears. Buying a new full set is my last and unlikeliest option.

[Outlawstar98]

How much HP you running? Best bet is to go to a junkyard and pick up a 2.0l Protege G Series Trans, while you take the one off you have and TAKE IT EASY, like really really easy on the stock trans, while you get gears from soemone and cryo treat them. And sell those PAR gears to someone that wnats them, cause its really really not for turbo applications. But if you need your car ASAP that is, if it isnt just take your trans out, wait for gears, cryo treat them, install them, sell par gears.

[HondaEat-R]

I have no clue how much power I have, never raced, never dynoed. This car is going to be sold after I fix this. I'm not cryo-treating anything. I'll put a stocker in, swap my lsd in and sell the car. I'm done. First $7,800 takes this car. I'm really still weighing out my options with how to approach the tranny. I'm not building it. Yea I know it's really not for turbo applications, I'm not the one who bought close ratio gears for this car. TRanny has been out for a week and is waiting for me to make a decision....

[low_psi]

Gears are not the end all solution. Its well documented that the OEM bearing design leaves them starved of oil AND the shafts are spreading apart under high loading.

The ring gear and 5th gear having issues is strange, since they are on opposite sides of the case. Was the pinion gear damaged from the first incident?

[HondaEat-R]

Gears are not the end all solution. Its well documented that the OEM bearing design leaves them starved of oil AND the shafts are spreading apart under high loading.

The ring gear and 5th gear having issues is strange, since they are on opposite sides of the case. Was the pinion gear damaged from the first incident?

The ring gear broke last year, knocked a tooth off while just driving like granny. Last week, all of a sudden I couldn't get into 2nd, 4th, reverse. And when i put it in 5th I noticed a rotational "clicking" that would relate to how fast i was going. It was obvious I broke a tooth. The broken tooth kept me from getting into the bottom pattern gears. I'm still working out a solution. Right now I'm think stock 1st and 2nd, GTX 3 and 5th, stock 4th OR MAYBE a new PAR 4th just for kicks, who knows.

Let me ask this: With my upgraded LSD, and GTX 3rd and 5th, do you guys think I'de be ok at 12-15psi ? I truly baby my car, never launch, never race, except the occasional highway run.

[avarela86]

LOL, In all seriousness, I'm not sure why I ever strayed from owning Nissans and Toyotas but, I'm going back to Nissans and never looking back. I <3 sr20det.

They have their OWN downfalls. The protege is just not the best platform period.

On topic though your best and cheapest option is to pick up a tranny at the junkyard. Try to find a yard that let YOU pull the tranny and it will be substantially cheaper. I can usually get a tranny for $90 in Miami. I have broken 4 trans at this point and the one I got now has lasted some time by simply not boosting 3rd as much which at higher PSI seems to be the weakest gear.

[jeffmsp]

grab a JY trans for cheap and keep the msp! buy a case of beer and spend the weekend doing the swap. you will have fun. just dont drive like a hooligan and it will make it as a good DD.

[cougar10agREDUX]

get stock gears and get everything shot peened... theres acually a process better than shot peening but i can't remember the name. it's a japanese secret apparently, and theres only one place in the US that does it. works the same way as shot peening except the material used is much much finer and lighter and of an unknown compound. it is also shot out at a much higher velocity without changing the dimensions of the part very much. because of the weight and how fine it is, and the minimal dimension change it can be used on brittle and high tolerance parts such as piston rings, bearings AND transmission cases. lol. it's in one of my superstreet or import tuner mags. i'll try to find it.

EDIT: found it. it's called WPC http://turbohightechperformance.automotive.com/103230/turp-0902-shot-peening-wpc-treatment/friction-reduction.html

http://www.wpctreatment.com/

[HondaEat-R]

grab a JY trans for cheap and keep the msp! buy a case of beer and spend the weekend doing the swap. you will have fun. just dont drive like a hooligan and it will make it as a good DD.

I'm pretty much at the point where I think I'm going to run a stock 1st, 2nd, and 4th,and the GTX 3rd and 5th. I'll sell my 1-4 PAR set to someone looking to autocross, or an NA guy.

Should only take 2 or 3 hours to put the tranny back in. Lift, ftw. I just want to keep running 12 or 15 psi without breaking a tranny. Yeah man, I never drive stupid really. No launching or pwershifts ever.

[khaosman]

I should have some stock gears and open differential for sale soon if you need 'em.

[HondaEat-R]

Thanks, but I think I'm all set.

[avarela86]

I'm pretty much at the point where I think I'm going to run a stock 1st, 2nd, and 4th,and the GTX 3rd and 5th. I'll sell my 1-4 PAR set to someone looking to autocross, or an NA guy.

Should only take 2 or 3 hours to put the tranny back in. Lift, ftw. I just want to keep running 12 or 15 psi without breaking a tranny. Yeah man, I never drive stupid really. No launching or pwershifts ever.

GTX gears aren't that much different from stock. Good luck man and I hope it all works out so you can enjoy it.

[HondaEat-R]

GTX gears aren't that much different from stock. Good luck man and I hope it all works out so you can enjoy it.

Than they should stop advertising them as stronger... Weird. I may send all my shafts and gears in for cryo treating...

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Im really interested as to why the gear broke... Im wondering if the short ratios have anything to do with that... Honestly you shouldn't be breaking PAR gears, because in comparison Mazdaspeed2003.5 has stock gears that are IIRC shoot peened and cryo treated and he is pushing almost 500whp. I hope you figure it out and get the car back up and running.


Well that sounds very weird, breaking straight cut gears is very hard to do unless you are putting over 750whp..

and yes I have all of my transmission Internals cryo treated, Welded LSD front and back of it with also cryo treatment and TBK racing 3rd and 4th racing cryo treated gears as well.. I think what really do kill our transmissions is Smaller turbos with to fast spooling, putting to much stress to the gears in such low speed and rpm is very deadly , well the proof is that why people are breaking transmissions and LSD´s with smaller turbos and people running bigger ain´t !!! bigger turbos spools later and create power up top where the stress to the gears and lsd is much less stressful !!!!!! I also keep my car on street tires because as long i spin tires i won´t break anything inside my transmission !!!

[HondaEat-R]

Well that sounds very weird, breaking straight cut gears is very hard to do unless you are putting over 750whp..

and yes I have all of my transmission Internals cryo treated, Welded LSD front and back of it with also cryo treatment and TBK racing 3rd and 4th racing cryo treated gears as well.. I think what really do kill our transmissions is Smaller turbos with to fast spooling, putting to much stress to the gears in such low speed and rpm is very deadly , well the proof is that why people are breaking transmissions and LSD´s with smaller turbos and people running bigger ain´t !!! bigger turbos spools later and create power up top where the stress to the gears and lsd is much less stressful !!!!!! I also keep my car on street tires because as long i spin tires i won´t break anything inside my transmission !!!

The TBK gears are what, $450 a set (1 speed) ?

Buy me a big turbo and I'll run it. Please..

[avarela86]

The TBK gears are what, $450 a set (1 speed) ?

Buy me a big turbo and I'll run it. Please..

Just buy third and fourth you dont need all the speeds. They are helical gears so they wont be as loud as your straight cuts from PAR.

[HondaEat-R]

I just find it appaling that I have to worry about gears breaking while running 15psi on a tiny turbo, it's pathetic. I'll call them today.

[03.5MSP]

Sorry your going through all of this, I feel your pain...I had my tranny rebuilt twice in the last two years.

[HondaEat-R]

Sorry your going through all of this, I feel your pain...I had my tranny rebuilt twice in the last two years.

What issues did you have ? I'm thinking about getting an Exedy Stage 1 to soften up the drivetraina little. i think the Spec Stage 3+ that i have is a little too harsh, and overkill for my mods.

[avarela86]

What issues did you have ? I'm thinking about getting an Exedy Stage 1 to soften up the drivetraina little. i think the Spec Stage 3+ that i have is a little too harsh, and overkill for my mods.

It should help, a full disk will always be better for the gears than a pucked clutch because sometimes a full disk has some slip at times.

[HondaEat-R]

Think the Exedy stage 1 will hold ?

[avarela86]

Depends on torque, tires and power rating of the pressure plate of the Exedy. What size turbo?

[Speed3.5]

well since you don't push too much on it it will work but be aware that EXEDY stg1 is rated around 325tq

If your interested lmk, I still have mine in box.

[03.5MSP]

What issues did you have ? I'm thinking about getting an Exedy Stage 1 to soften up the drivetraina little. i think the Spec Stage 3+ that i have is a little too harsh, and overkill for my mods.

I broke my diff the first time, it was the usual oem non welded diff taking a shit; which was not installed properly.. That after about 1000 miles my tranny started making noise..I got it checked out and my diff was missing a took, along with my input shaft. They also found out my 3-4 shift fork was really badly work as well.

To answer your question I think the exedy 1 is proablly the most installed clutch in both build and non built MSP's plus, people rarely complain about them and alway seem to have good reviews.

[JDM Sam]

pull the trigger on it. that's the one i use and install the most of.

[HondaEat-R]

I run 15psi on the stock gt25 turbo. Check my mod list. Rarely do I ever go above 15 psi.

JDMSam, I know you run this on your cars but I'm confused. The torque rating in some places says "320tq", other places like your site say like 210 torque or around there. All I know is that this Spec stage 3+ is overkill for my setup. I'm just going to be very upset if I swap in a new clutch while my current one is in fine shape, and the Exedy slips. I truly trust what you say but, on some level i'm still skeptical.

I'm really concerned about breaking the tranny again when I put it back in. I'm swapping in the stock input & counter shaft, GTX gears, and stock gears. I actually need a new input shaft because mine is showing bad grinding on the center section. (previous owner sent me all the OEM tranny stuff, and the input shaft is beat).

I really don't want to sell the car but, if I have to worry about breaking gears with my est. 240-250whp...it's just not worth it. I mean shit, the bottom end is built and has 30,000 on it...it'd be a shame to have to get rid of this car. More PAR gears are out of the question...

[JDM Sam]

That revised torque rating is underrated from my experience. The stock MSP clutch can hold 15 psi. The Exedy Stage 1 has a stiffer pressure plate and similar organic sport disc should hold it easily. If you want some more leeway get the stage 2.

[blackwidowMP5]

anybody know what the mazda part#'s are for the GTX 3rd and 5th gears are?

[JDM Sam]

don't waste your time, they aren't much stronger than expected.

The new Par sets 3rd and 4th that fit on the factory input and counter shaft are stronger.
This set that broke was a used set in the Tripoint gear set. There has to be machining done precisely for that gear set otherwise it will grenade easily.

[HondaEat-R]

The set that I used was actually new, although some used gears were included but discarded. I also have several brand new gears from PAR sitting in front of me and they have air bubbles in the casting, that were exposed when the sides were machined. I would look around for other possible options before calling PAR the "end-all" solution. In addition to that, I bought a ring and pinion set from PAR last July, and that also has horrible signs of pitting on the teeth. I'm not sepnding anymore money on PAR gears personally, and I would hope that I have a refund coming my way soon due to the Ring / Pinion issue.

I'm not saying Sam is wrong, but I am saying that you should beware. I understand that other people (few) are running PAR sets and haven't had failure yet, but from what I gathered those people drive the car very very little compared to me, which it is a DD in my case.


EDIT: SAM, do you sell conversion kits so that I can run needle roller bearings on the stocker input and counter shaft w/ the stock or GTX gears ? Thanks

[JDM Sam]

That's pretty bad quality control if your gears had air bubbles.

Aside from par, only Emco makes stronger gears. You'll be paying a premium for those though. $1k per set (1 set per gear)

I can get them but should deal with PAR directly since you already dealt with them before so you can work something out with them.
I'm trying to get another manufacturer hopefully to make stronger gears that will drop onto the factory input and counter shaft for 3rd and 4th.

[HondaEat-R]

Yea, I don't know how they had air bubbles in there, especially because they're not "casted" parts. They're machined from billet, weird I know. I'm talking with them right now and hopefully come to a resolution. They offered me another Ring / Pinion / Countershaft set BUT, I need cash, not more PAR gears that will be useless to me.

My posting is not to discredit PAR, but to simply "throw this out there" as my experience, and let people know that their MAY still be issues with their parts. Maybe this is a isolated incident, but it's still unacceptable to have such supposed high quality parts break so often.

Sam: do you sell conversion kits so that I can run needle roller bearings on the stocker input and counter shaft w/ the stock or GTX gears ? Thanks

[nvmsp]

I'm trying to get another manufacturer hopefully to make stronger gears that will drop onto the factory input and counter shaft for 3rd and 4th.[/QUOTE]

Sub'ed for those.

[avarela86]

TBK makes stronger gears that drop in... I talked to Manuel he said you called him up about it. Why not go with those gears? I wish I could afford them but for now it's junking $90 trannies left and right before I bite the bullet.

[JDM Sam]

b/c TBK takes forever?

[Outlawstar98]

b/c TBK takes forever?

which would take longer, TBK or PAR, and can TBK make straight cut? or just would I ahve to go to PAR for that?

[mspHtown]

TBK makes stronger gears that drop in... I talked to Manuel he said you called him up about it. Why not go with those gears? I wish I could afford them but for now it's junking $90 trannies left and right before I bite the bullet.

from the pictures pdhaudio posted, the TBK gears seem to lack quality.

[HondaEat-R]

To be honest, and this will sound very stubborn.....But I'm no longer interested in dumping money into this car, due to the fact that it's turned out to be a mediocre platform to start with. I'm just going to fix and then sell it.

I have to spend $1,000 minimum for 3rd and 4th gear (TBK), and all that would do is make it so when you're hammering down in one of those gears, you just moved the stress from the gears to the input and counter shaft, especially due to the larger and more aggressive tooth patterns on the TBK and PAR helical cut gears.

Outlawstar: I think TBK only makes helical cut gears. Helical is actually stronger than spur cut, but helical gears put a high amount of lateral stress on the tranny case and shafts. If you're looking at PAR straight cuts, be prepared to change your gear oil every time you change your oil, and also be prepared to spend a buttload on NEO Synthetic fluid every time you change. PAR is in Australia and shipping is a pain in the nuts, price and time wise. They're also being very rigid on their return policy right now, and offering me no $$ back at all, but instead another counter shaft and ring gear that I don't want / can't use.

PS: Anyone can go to a shop that has CAD / CAM / CNC machinery and have them make you a custom gear set. Your options are not limited to PAR, EMCO, TBK, etc..

[HondaEat-R]

TBK makes stronger gears that drop in... I talked to Manuel he said you called him up about it. Why not go with those gears? I wish I could afford them but for now it's junking $90 trannies left and right before I bite the bullet.

They cost too much, cheaper than PAR, but I'm too cheap.

[avarela86]

from the pictures pdhaudio posted, the TBK gears seem to lack quality.

When did he post pictures? Got a link?

[mspHtown]

When did he post pictures? Got a link?

awhile ago:

http://*************.com/showthread.php?t=266

the other forum...

[Maxx Mazda]

Knock on wood, but other than my secondary shaft, since I've been running the GTX 3rd, 4th, and 5th, I've had no problems.

[HondaEat-R]

I have gtx 3rd and 5th that are going in, hope it works out ok. Prob grab a softer clutch too, spec 3 + is a little rough.

[Speed3.5]

The other so call'ed option would be to talk to DOC B , they are a racing team that were running into 3rd & 4th gear problem and "solved" it by dev. their own spec gears made in USA.
They are not cheap but will fit in like stockers but stronger and will last more then stockers.

[JDM Sam]

most likely Emco.

[mspeedP5]

Subbin' for reference

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

This thread seems to be dead... a little tread jacking i have recently had PAR custom make me a 3rd gear set in Helical and have lots of pictures and a video of it is this can help the people in here. The gear set looks extreme strong and tough, i will be installing it and let everybody know how it goes and if it does its job...