edmunds: Face-Off Tournament Final: Mazdaspeed 3 versus Volkswagen GTI

[Hank3]

Clicky (http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/07/face-off-tournament-final-mazdaspeed-3-versus-volkswagen-gti.html)

Edit* And the winnAr is... (http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/07/face-off-tournament-we-have-a-winner.html)

[GoFast]

Love it....lol


I've tried this in paragraph form and faired pretty well, but I've got the confidence to try this a different way: With a list!
(1) The GTI is too isolated: Not in the Toyota way where you're barely conscious there's a car involved, but in this really unpleasant slightly distant way. Think giving your sweetie a massage while wearing those big goofy rubber dish-gloves. The GTI feels like there's a solid layer of rubber protecting you from the fun and sometimes harsh part of driving. You're confusing, I think, "balanced and sophisticated" with numb and unnaturally heavy.
(2) Better built? Here's a question: Would you own one out of warranty? I wouldn't. Owning a Mazda3 out of warranty is a different subject, crazy electronics don't go, turbos seem to. When that breaks you just get a bigger, stronger one! Win-Win!
(3) Torque steer: I have arms capable of holding a wheel straight, I can predict when it will happen and throttles aren't binary. Just because you have to floor the gas all the time in the wheezy GTI doesn't mean everyone does. There's a whole range of pedal travel, use it wisely. Smooth is fast.
(4) My kid sister has no interest in a Mazdaspeed 3.
(5) The GTI used to be cool and light and nimble, but now it's been dumbed-down beyond tactile recognition. If it didn't say GTI all over the place, you'd never want to drive it hard. It's so over-engineered it's no longer fun.
(6) Good interior quality and driving dynamics like a junior sport sedan? Sir, you're confusing the GTI and the Mazda 3 -- From your own blog on the 2010 Mazda3 (http://www.carspace.com/blogs/curbthoughts/2010-Mazda-3--It-Ain-t-Broke?@475.50MLjdAUICP@)regarding the last-gen 3 (which is the only Speed 3 available so far), "it's still holding up remarkably well -- we editor types are still throwing awards at it and its sales figures have consistently gone up. The 3 always drove like a junior sport sedan and its interior did much to back that up."

[chief_wiggum]

classic!


Bread
Milk
Yogurt
Cheese - will have to go to the Cheese Shop for that
Paper towels
Klondike Bars.

Oh, sorry, have some shopping to do. Are we still pretending that the GTI is relevant to the hot hatch discussion anymore?

[Kain]

I don't understand the criticism against the MS3 is that it's some untamed, bucking bronco. The guy who mentioned that the "go" pedal has a range and is not simply on/off is correct; no one is forcing you to WOT around every turn through the parking lot. It's civil when I want it to be, and it's fairly quick when I want it to be.

I mean, lawl, it's only 263 hp at the crank. C'mon.

[Darth Vader]

Yeah, absolutely right on, Kain. I come off a supercharged 5.0 as my "fun car"...there's nothing the MS3 can do that's going to make it feel out of control to me. I think it's a tame car that still puts a grin on yer face. It still does DD duty with style and poise. GTi is an overpriced, underpowered, ugly, unreliable pig. The value just ain't there.

Value is a major component of my car-buying decision. Basically, nothing save the now-unobtainable Cobalt SS can run with this car, you have to buy an STi from Subaru or an Evo X from Mitsu and both are massively more expensive, at least up here in Canada where I live.

My friend gave his MS3 up and had to go with an M package BMW 135i to improve on the performance of the MS3. I can tell you that wasn't a 30K car loaded, that's for sure.

[joelgas]

Lets face it...the MS3 takes some finesse to drive the car properly like most high performance vehicles. The fun of driving this car is finding the proper throttle ranges for what you are trying to achieve. Massaging the pedal to connect with the turbo... now that is fun! I don't want a car that is predictable. If I did...I would buy the unexcited GTI.

[nypz]

Im pretty sure the people that say it has horrible torque steer have never driven an ms3 or dont know how to drive.

[BillTheCat]

Having test driven both before buying, I feel SOOO glad I got the MS3 instead of the GTI. I previously owned a 2001 Golf GLS 1.8T 4-door, too. Almost a GTI, as it were. The MS3 is light years ahead of those cars in terms of power and handling, and frankly, I don't think the VW's ride is noticeably more civilized. In fact, thanks to its uncomfortable seats, it's kinda harsh compared to the MS3.

We win.

[tiagotiago]

+1 On torque steer issue being hyped. Yes, this car has a good dose of power, and you can't drive it like if it was some regular underpowered econobox; that means you have to have a sensitive right foot, but the same is true for any car with a bit of power that doesn't have dozens of electronic nannies. I like the car to have some character, and to require skill to get the most out of it. This car is my daily driver, and like Kain said, it's docile when I need it to be and it can be a fun ride when I push it.

And I cant understand the complaints about the car being too stiffly suspended. For me a harsh ride is something similar to an HD pickup without cargo to weigh it down; this car does not have a harsh ride, and there are some very crappy roads down here.

Also I cringe everytime they throw the "german quality" factor. Build quality isn't consistent, some are great cars and others are lemons, or have that lemon zing to them. I owned a VW, and was so tired of that experience I did't even consider a GTI. And I actively discourage my friends of even considering a VW.

[bacarl]

Im pretty sure the people that say it has horrible torque steer have never driven an ms3 or dont know how to drive.
...

Put your foot down and as the acceleration builds so does the side-to-side tugging at the steering ... it requires more effort than a modern family hatch should to keep it pointing in the desired direction.
I don't know who this guy is, but I don't think he spends much time driving cars. Obviously doesn't know how to drive well either. /sarcasm

(Thanks for the article, Vader -- 2nd quote of the day, haha!)

The whole thing about torque steer that gets me is that it's relatively unpredictable. One can "know how to drive" quite well, but all it takes is one truck rut or asphalt patch I don't see coming, and suddenly my car is 1-2 feet away from where it was an instant ago. A person simply can't compensate for that. One time, a Jeep Commander thought I had lost control and swerved away from me, and took out a Malibu on the freeway. No one was hurt but I don't need that kind of "fun" or "wild" ride to enjoy a car.

As far as throttle modulation is concerned, I rarely open the car to WOT. It makes gobs of torque boosting under even partial throttle.

[Kain]

My previous car had ~400F/292R in/lb coilvers, so the MS3 is pillowy soft in comparison.

[Darth Vader]

Mine was 650 lb/in straight rate front and 350 rear, with all the lovely unsprung follies of an iron axle. Wet weather? Meh, who drives a 330 horse V8 car in the wet, lol? MS3 feels like a Cadillac, mang.

[irnbru83]

I came off an A4 T/A. Nothing like stomping the gas and having the rear end fly out sideways.

At least it was consistent.

[essejkcamraw]

i also drove a GTI while looking at cars, and good GOO am i glad i didn't get that car. and since when did PLAID become cool? im sorry, but, handling. power. even interior the MS3 wins. maybe not on 07 and earlier 08 trims, but, 08.5 and up the interior just got SO much nicer. I love reading the daily shit talk VW guys talk on our car's and i cant help but smile when i read it. (wiggle)

[gonerogue]

When I think of GTI owners I'm always reminded of the VW fan who got a CEL tattoo...http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/10/cel-tattoo-we-dont-wanna-know-where-to-plug-the-code-reader/

This is coming from a former GLI owner.

[MS3_KIDD]

i was always a big fan of my buddys MKIV GTI
he had a Jazz Blue 10th AE and it was retarded fast (had work done) and was just a fun car to drive both in both straight line and twisties

[Hank3]

And the winnAr is... (http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/07/face-off-tournament-we-have-a-winner.html)

Kinda surprised actually.

[chief_wiggum]

I've always thought that GTIs look really nice (I always admire the R32 sitting in my neighbors driveway), but between the big difference in performance and VW's recent reputation for reliability, it was no contest -- MS3 FTW.

[Darth Vader]

My first GTi was the first North American, well, Canada, anyway) GTi, a 1980 Rabbit GTi, 1.6 litres of K-jet goodness, plaid Recaros, 13" steel wheels, a FIVE speed transmission. It would do 10.5 to 60 and go about 105 mph top. It was a hot stick, for 1980.

[djthom]

i was always a big fan of my buddys MKIV GTI
he had a Jazz Blue 10th AE and it was retarded fast (had work done) and was just a fun car to drive both in both straight line and twisties

same experience here. friends car is fun to drive and its quite comfortable for me and the thing hauls ass...
but i love the raw powar of my ms3

[MS3_KIDD]

same experience here. friends car is fun to drive and its quite comfortable for me and the thing hauls ass...
but i love the raw powar of my ms3

yeah they are powerful cars, with perfect body lines in all the right colors, comfortable recaro's, and a kicking sound system

and VW did it the right way when making the AE

you cant beat the beautiful production number plates on the radio surround

*hint*hint*
mazda makes you look your number up online lol

[chief_wiggum]

My first GTi was the first North American, well, Canada, anyway) GTi, a 1980 Rabbit GTi, 1.6 litres of K-jet goodness, plaid Recaros, 13" steel wheels, a FIVE speed transmission. It would do 10.5 to 60 and go about 105 mph top. It was a hot stick, for 1980.

I always forget I had one too back in the early/mid-90s; a sweet 1984 black one with red trim. Owned it for a month and it was in the shop all but 3 days; needless to say, it was replaced.

[nypz]

I don't know who this guy is, but I don't think he spends much time driving cars. Obviously doesn't know how to drive well either. /sarcasm


Ok and all he said was it takes more than the avg car to keep straight, no shit.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

"The other day I saw a guy who must have just been this side of a hundred picking up his white ms3 from service at the dealership. He loaded his old lady into the passengers side, her walker in the hatch, then hobbled around the car to the drivers seat. Coolest old dude ever, even went wot when he pulled onto the main road."

I love it! This will be me some day. Assuming I live that long.

I test drove a VW a couple of decades ago and thought it was amazing. Felt light, nimble, reasonably quick. Didn`t buy it because a VW afficionado I knew warned me that even then they were living on their reputation quality-wise.

[chief_wiggum]

"The other day I saw a guy who must have just been this side of a hundred picking up his white ms3 from service at the dealership. He loaded his old lady into the passengers side, her walker in the hatch, then hobbled around the car to the drivers seat. Coolest old dude ever, even went wot when he pulled onto the main road."

turbo charged, 4 wheeled viagra....

[Kain]

turbo charged, 4 wheeled viagra....

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Kain/ms3_viagra.jpg

[leadf00t]

Nice one Kain !!!!!

[MS3MB]

ya i drove my friends gti and i would say the speed3 wins easily maybe its becuase i own a speed3 though but i wasnt that impressed by the gti

[DaleNixon]

I loved the GTI Mk IV. Mk V not so much. If I had one and chipped it I think I'd be happy though. 20lbs. of boost through that K03 is pretty sweet!

[jaxmazda5]

I own a chipped GTI. you get used to it after a while then you switch back to stock for a week, then switch back....and so on. otherwise you get the mod bug and the wifey yells when UPS man shows up.

I didn't read this article but it seems about 50/50 overall. half the authors choose the GTI (for all the reasons we've read yada yada) and half choose the speed. GTI does everything good but performance is only average, brakes are average etc...

Cool thing is that the GTI is still really the #1 comparison against the speed and the Cobalts, Calibers, Mini's of the world are always 3rd, 4th and 5th. I kinda wish i would have gotten an MS3 because my next car has to be a kid hauler so this was my last shot at having a fun little performance car.

[TRDMS3]

GTi is nothing to be bothered about really, although it's faced some competition for the MS3 however I never found anything about it to be appealing, from the styling as someone described it as "cute" lol to being simply overpriced, get the speed3 already and you won't look back as more than a handful of folks mentioned on here.

[Antonio DiMarco]

I'm not surprised that the GTI and speed faced off. Mazda admitted in one of the first reviews in sports car compact that they benchmarked the speed against the gti. So based on the votes and dead heat race, Mazda definitely hit the mark perfectly.

[Yamasaki]

I have owned both a GTI (2003 MKIV) and our current 09 Speed 3 and loved them both. I will say that the only thing that I prefered with the GTI over the Mazda was interior quality. Those VW's interior's are super nice. But the Mazda is more fun to drive!

[MS3_KIDD]

yeahh cant beat the recaros in them things

[ChrisG]

My MS3 is the first Japanese car I've owned in 25 years of driving. The last American car was a lightly modded 1986 5.0 Mustang, and then the run of VW's began:
-1994 Golf 2.0 8v (drove it into the ground)
-2000 Jetta GLS 1.8T (blown turbo)
-2002 GTI 1.8T (bad coilpacks and various other annoyances)
-2003 GTI VR6 24v (best car I ever owned, before my MS3)

The hit and miss nature of VW reliability and the attraction of a change brought me to the Mazda dealer, and that was that. The MS3 is far and away the most capable car I've owned yet.

[MrDouble]

Just came from a 07 GTI that I daily drove for 2.5 years. Only had the MS3 for 2 weeks so it's not a fair comparison, but here's my feeling:

Both are great cars, depends on what you prefer. GTI is refined but disconnected. MS3 is rougher but more involving. MS3 is performance first, whereas GTI tries to be all-rounder.

Stock vs stock, there's no question that MS3 performance is a notch above. Chip the GTI like I did, and it's very close to about 70mph. Above that MS3 walks. Handling, I would say GTI is more effortless and somewhat more precise, but it lacks feel, feels distant, unlike the MS3. Brakes are sooo much better on the MS3, that was one weak area of GTI, soft pedal feel.

GTI was nice, but MS3 brings out the emotion that reinforces passion for cars.

[Antonio DiMarco]

MS3 brings out the emotion that reinforces passion for cars.

And that's what Mazda's Zoom-Zoom matra is all about.

[kvndoom]

I would have been interested in cross-shopping the Mark 6 GTI against the 2009 MS3. But I really got tired of waiting. The MkV's are just too ugly for me, so there was zero chance of me getting one.

I have a feeling the 2010 GTI's will be much more popular than the 2010 Speed3's, because VW made an ugly car beautiful again, while Mazda made a beautiful car look silly.

[shaneS]

I would pick ms3 ( and i did ) over gti any day. Just the fact that they make the gti in an auto turns me off.