3rd Gear Grind

[hollywood0027]

I have a 2008 MS3. Under wide open throttle (WOT) the shift from 2nd to 3rd just under redline will not fully seat into 3rd gear and grinds really badly. This happens almost 50% of the time, and is very frustrating when I am trying to rape a Z28 for a second time and miss the shift. I have been reading about installing new shifter bushings and wonder if this is the way to go, or if I should install a engine torque damper. These are the two posts I read:

Damper http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123742585

Modify Shifter Bushings http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123692059

I am also thinking of getting the lighter shifter weight from Cobb http://www.jscspeed.com/mazdaspeed3/clutch/cobb_shifter_weight.htm

Let me know what you guys think.

[CWPspeed3]

I found the shifter bushings helped a lot, especially paired with the short shifter. Also an upgraded rear motor mount will help. This wont eliminate that 3rd gear grind because I occasionally still grind into 3rd but it helps a lot.

[TheDoc]

I've got a rear motor mount and ETD and very rarely have it happen anymore. Eventually going to do the bushings and STS- but I'm not sure how much either of those is going to help. The grinding is caused by play in the shifter cable. Things that reduce engine movement are going to make the biggest difference.

[Jon MS3]

i did the bushings/short shifter/ and rear motor mount.

still grind it in 3rd pretty regularly. sometimes making me just want to scream at this car

[dizzin9]

change your tranny fluid (gossip)

[eg6motion]

WOT shifting into 3rd.... (screwy)

[hollywood0027]

WOT shifting into 3rd.... (screwy)

Obviously I am letting off the throttle for the shift. Engine never goes over redline during entire run. Full throttle to top of first, release, full throttle to top of second, release, full throttle to top of third.....

I would imagine it is the engine rocking on its mounts when I release the throttle and push in the clutch that is causing strange shift linkage slack, not allowing for a clean shift straight into 3rd. Seeing as it never happens on pull gears (2nd, 4th, 6th) I would imaine this is the case.

[Wurf]

i did the bushings/short shifter/ and rear motor mount.

still grind it in 3rd pretty regularly. sometimes making me just want to scream at this car

+1

[954_ms3]

I grind 3rd at WOT at least half of the time even with a SU rear mm and bushings. I think side mounts or a damper are next

[Speedkid]

I had that problem got the rear mm and bushing and it only did it once after.

[ericrapp]

Howdy, i recommend stiffening up everything you can related to the shifter and transmission. i started with a corksport insert and that helped the motor from rotating which was good because my big intercooler was hitting the hood under heavy throttle. this also helped the shifter feel. This is the cheapest but decent upgrade in this area. I have had trouble with third since stock once in awhile. so i switched to redlne mt90 at around 20k and i like the feel of it when warmed better than stock. I recently installed a top speed passenger side motor mount which was a great upgrade for a couple of reasons. especially for my driving style. But the 3rd shifts are still missed once in awhile. I have a tranny side mount ready to install this weekend ( i hope) and i am going to buy a super stiff rear mount. I think you might be on the right track Hollywood but the rear mount is where most of the load is. I flat shift 3-4 and 4-5 no problem but i think my 2-3 problem is more than just bushings. By the way when i replaced my passenger mount, the stock one was shot!! I do drive the car very hard and it sucks to have to baby 2-3. good luck with that z28!

[hollywood0027]

Thanks for the reply ericrapp. How difficult was the rmm and passenger mm to replace?
The guy in the manual Z28 camaro was being a deusch(dance), he drove at twenty mph until I tried to pass on the 2 lane road when he rhomped on it. I was ready, so we both got some great wheelspin (drive2). I slammed into third (it worked that time) and off we went. I kept pulling on him in every gear (gotta LOVE that torque, more than him at less than half the liters) until I finally cleared and pulled over infront of him at 130 mph (wedge). It was exciting enough I wanted to do it again (really just to get his girls number, seeing as she was in the passenger seat with him (upbum). I did the same thing he did to me at the next stop sign, and he would have no part, probably too busy defending his slow car to his gf (dunno). I decided to pull away and leave him in a dust cloud when third would not seat, so I had to pull a quick shift to fourth, after taking third to the grinder (yupnope). Even though I kicked his ass in a heads up race, it still was humiliating grinding the hell out of 3rd while pulling away (pissed). The moral of the story is I NEVER want that to happen again, and I'm sure my bruised 3rd gear doesnt either. I know my car is too new and I have driven it too gingerly the rest of the time to already have syncro problems.
Anyway, if you could point me to the best place to get that stuff at a good price I would really appreciate it. I'll probably do the rmm and shifter bushings and then decide if the strut to mount damper is needed (dont really want to increase the cabin noise if I dont have to). Thanks!

[ericrapp]

No problem with the with sharing my exp. Just to remind you we are not allowed to talk about street racing and there is a good reason not to promote it. I have been told a couple of times by the moderators to cut it out. But beyond that. I did the insert myself as one of my first wrenchings on my speed. i had a little trouble, but rear motor mount upgrade is easy stuff. I think we have a how too, here somewhere. The procedure is the same regardless of which brand you choose. I do not have amodified shifter setup but many of us do. You might want try engenears free mod first. But ther are plenty of folks you can pm on the details in this area. The top speed was easy also and as i said i love the thing. If you decide to go that route i will be glad to pm you a how to. But i do beleive the rear MM is the best place to start. Do not forget to be safe. An foolish person who races with his girlfriend in the passenger is probably dangerous. Do you have any quarter mile tracks nearby? We have test and tune a couple of days a week here during summer. For thirteen bucks you can run as many times as you want with full lights. You just run the clock and try to better your time. It is a great place to practice your shifting! feel free to pm me with any Q's.

[hollywood0027]

Thanks for the heads up. We do have a track near here, but they have been undergoing new management. Last time I drove out there they had closed it for remodel, and last I checked they still hadn't reopened it to Time Only's again yet. I am going to wait until my next paycheck before I perform any modifications, as I just purchased a new motorcycle to toy with and used my modifications savings as the down payment. I will continue researching my options and definitally let you know if I need help figuring out the best install method. It would be nice to have a group like yours down here, but sadly due to the lack of a good track nearby it doesn't seem too possible.

[hugador]

I do get a similar problem. No grinding noise or feel just can't shift to 3rd. Feels like 3rd gear is been blocked. No biggie it only happens rarely. Like on those times when I want to show off. embarrassing. I thought I should mention that I have not upgrade the rear mm. Since it only happens when I rip through them gears which I don't do often, so no need to upgrade yet.

[Darth Vader]

I put ~20 dragstrip runs on this car when I first got it and only missed 3rd once. My shifting mods are an epoxied stock rear mm. I think it matters that I have been driving various forms of stick shift, from Capris to Kenworths, over 25 years but, the car does take some time to adapt to. You need to keep the damn engine from moving around as much as possible and shift fluidly to get the most out of it. Banging it as hard as you can, like my supercharged 5.0 demanded, didn't work well at all.

[MSMS3]

Right DV. Absolutely.

Powershift with a light hand is not an oxymoron. It's speed, not force that matters with that shift. Just snicking it up to third with a light but quick palm push works pretty well for me. But I still miss the 2-3 shift occasionally. Just the damn remote cable linkage - can't really do much about that.

I never thought about epoxy DIY on the rear mount. If there are not any serious NVH issues there, sounds like something I might try.

[Darth Vader]

No NVH issues at all. Costs $5 to try, too.

[ericrapp]

Wholly smoke, those little Mercury Capris? That takes me back. I also have driven a few vehicles in my time including some 6 and 8 wheel dual range double clutchers. i am stiil unhappy that i cannot master this second to third issue, and i have tried patience, gentleness when shifting, not throttle. I have considered sending candy and flowers to my tranny to ply her into submission. i will not give up. i had to laugh as i also have embarassed myself. while trying to show off. haa. I should know better at my age! DV i remember your next to free mod i think, not a bad idea but not reversible i would guess! And to hugadors point, the gating is a little odd you cannot feel the edge of it. When i first got the car i was very careful when shifting. My Neon r/t was much more distinct when you had the gear engaged and i could toss that into any gear without worry. I was able to compare them side by side too.

[Darth Vader]

Yep, a 1972 1.6 Kent I converted to a 2.8 V6. A pretty hot car for its time. Shifter made of glass though. I got to carrying a spare one in the glove box to get home if another lever broke off in my hand.

I'm sure you could poke out the Epoxy if you really wanted to, or drill it to restore the mount's wobbliness. I assure you, you won't want to reverse it once done.

[ericrapp]

Thats a lot of motor, the 2.8. what did those cars weigh? and i am probbably going to a solid rear mount. I have the upgraded passenger side in place and tranny side awaiting my install. i did notice the teh passenger mount was nearly destroyed when i recently replaced and i am quite sure my Corksports are gone with the rest of the stock material. I like the spare in the glove box, as if it were a true british car!

[destrux]

I had trouble finding the gates quickly when the car was new... but I replaced the shifter base bushings with steel washers and it helped the shift feel alot. A shifter base is not something that should have been made from plastic.... and that hurts the shift feel on this car alot. I looked at the shift cables and still see nothing about them that would cause missed shifts... usually missed shifts (ones that aren't caused by missing the gate) are caused by the syncro not doing it's job... either because the clutch wasn't down far enough while the shifter was being moved or because the transmission had the wrong fluid in it (or burnt out fluid). I recently tried redline MT90 and Amsoil MTG and both caused a delay in the shifting... they are too slippery. I'm trying out a few different fluids to see what works best and doesn't cause diff noise. I use BG syncroshift or Pennzoil syncromesh in my DSM and those are the only two fluids that make it shift perfectly smooth... and neither are OEM recommended. Once I get more time and money I'm going to order a few bottles of BG and try it in there to see how well it shifts.

[Darth Vader]

My Capri, with V6, weighed ~2300 pounds. The 2.8 V6 had a Holley 390 2V on top and a set of headers and duals. It ripped good, for '70s tech. 3.44 final drive made the car top out at about 200 kph. The 2.8 eventually just tore the car to shreds. One day, booting hard off the line, it torqued the chassis so hard the rad jumped off its mounts and suicided into the engine fan, lol.

Ahh the bad old days.....

[MSMS3]

Thanks for the epoxy tip. What type - cure rate - did you use? Or do you think it really matters as long as it is good and solid.

[8.5MS3]

I have the SU solid bushings, cobb shifter weight and the CP-e mm. cleaned up shifting a ton. the shift action is so much smoother and precise. the mount does have some NHV at first but now i dont even notice it, barely with the AC on.

[Darth Vader]

Just regular standard 24 hour to full cure epoxy, because that's what I had a tube of lying around. It just needs to be solid, as you say. 5 minute stuff will be fine, too.

[ericrapp]

My Capri, with V6, weighed ~2300 pounds. The 2.8 V6 had a Holley 390 2V on top and a set of headers and duals. It ripped good, for '70s tech. 3.44 final drive made the car top out at about 200 kph. The 2.8 eventually just tore the car to shreds. One day, booting hard off the line, it torqued the chassis so hard the rad jumped off its mounts and suicided into the engine fan, lol.

Ahh the bad old days.....An honorable death.

[Darth Vader]

That was only one of many deaths, lol

I used JB weld to clean up the holes in the rad and ran it another year like that.

The main lower control arm had one bolt to secure it to the frame (British design) and that sheared off at speed one day. I managed to bring it to a stop without incident.

I lost brake hydraulic pressure (no safety circuit, factory design) and went through an intersection, spinning and destroying a Toyota Corolla but hardly damaging the Capri. Patched up the leak and drove it home later.

The factory oil pressure gauge was a Bourdon tube, through the firewall and hooked up to the gauge. The fitting failed, spraying the driver's footwell with hot 10W30. That sidelined it for a bit, the insurance lapsed and it got towed. I gave it to the towing company to settle the bill, lol.

Ken

P.S. Oh and not only that, the full voltage (such as it was) of the ignition system was routed through the tachometer so, if the tach failed, as it once did, the car wouldn't run (spin)

Kids bitch these days when they get a Mazda, Toyota or a Honda as a first car, with more power than two of the Capri's original 1.6 litre engines, AC, a radio, pw, locks, safety cell, airbags, and the extreme likelihood that nothing will go wrong with the car for at least 5 years. :rolleyes:

[ericrapp]

Yeh but how many kids, or adults even, ever had a Capri. And how many kids even know what one is/was? hah. yep those were different times i suppose. i have tried to get cars for my kids that they would have to work on and maintain themselves, so they would respect their cars. First thing i bought them was a repair manual! It has worked pretty well so far i guess i am old school a little.

[Darth Vader]

I'm just so glad I can work on a car for pleasure now, not because it blew up and left me stranded. These are the good old days....

[MSMS3]

Mid-day today I ran a little accelerometer test on my favorite area of mostly untravelled and straight, flat road. Wanted to see what 93 degree ambient temp would do.

Wouldn't you know it -- thought I had a decent launch (for me) and then missed the 2-3 shift.

I stayed in the run anyway to see what the data looked like. Now I have nice comparison chart (attached) to show just how bad a missed shift hurts you. We all know what that means at the strip. But looking at the cold hard data makes me sick because I made great power, even in the heat, only to have the run end up being a 13.9 rather than a 13.4 or 13.5 because of the time I lost trying to get the damn tranny into third -- it's there on the data print out just as clear as day.

And I thought I had that 2-3 shift licked. Was getting it right 90% of the time. But 90% ain't 100% So, epoxy glue rear MM fix for me.

[hollywood0027]

I bet you would get a lot of hits if you wrote a How To on epoxying the rear motor mount, I know I would personally like to see how it is done.

[Darth Vader]

OK here it is:

Once you've removed the rear MM, as described multiply, tape off the bottom side of the mount so the epoxy doesn't leak out. Fill the voids in the mount with epoxy, staying clear of the bolt hole. Leave, drink a beer, come back when it's dry, reinstall.

[ericrapp]

I think i am going to look into the freee shifter mod and maybe further. I have been working on the flat shift technique alot. I have been shifting earlier in the revs but staying on boost. As i might have mentioned the 1-2 are just fine the 3-4 even better. But guess what, i am pulling the 2-3s off. Shifting at about 5000 till i get comfortable with this. I have done it about five times and have not missed. Maybe it has been the driver mod?! all along. It might be time to get back to the track again. Now i think the issue might be at the shifter now since the mounts are taken care of. Thats good cuz i was sure the tranny was in disrepair, and i now have hope again.

[MSMS3]

Ericrapp, you may be on to something. What I thought worked and seemed to work has me back to missing 2-3 more now. It's only 2-3. I think the stock rear mount has gotten worse over time. Or maybe it's me getting worse after having gotten better!

Maybe the epoxy MM fix will restore my confidence. Maybe part of it is mental: if I worry about missing the shift, then I WILL miss the shift sort of thinking.

[ericrapp]

Yes the mental part can be tough. Let us know how the epoxy trick works for you!

[dizzin9]

i don't buy that "it's just mental" thing. ever since i changed my tranny oil, i have NOT (NOT!) grinded to any gears especially 2nd-3rd. no change on driving style at all. i also got the criticism of doing a "driver mod", guess not so much now.

[ericrapp]

Hey thats cool that the oil helped out. i am just understanding, that it can be be a bitch when i keep thinking that i am going to miss third when i go racing. Maybe you have never had the pleasure of messing up when in serious competition. When an adult male misses a shift while under pressure. well what are the women to think? have redline MT90, And motor mounts upgraded.

[ericrapp]

PS i think i am going to have to get the driver mod for my car too..seriously!