How to drive a protege, Stick. [Archive]

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 12:25 AM

As you all know, I'm 19, this is my first car, and I'm extremely inexperienced.

I'd like to know 'how' to drive a Manual Protege!
I want to know:
a) How to obtain the best mpg
b) how to drive as fast as possible (burnout)

Lets say your at a stand still. Your the only car on a road, speed limit = 55.
Your in no rush, no cops around, and can drive as fast/as slow as you want.

what points should you shift at to obtain the best mpg ?
--Is it better to end up going 40 mph in 5th gear?
--or is it always better to get 5th gear to 3k rpms to reach maximum mpg?

Post any information you have pertaining to the subject, so we can find the solution!!! (doughpoke

JCell

06-16-2009, 12:30 AM

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 12:46 AM

at the track, i found it better N/A to shift b4 redline.

as MPG, being in a high gear with a lot of load cancels out the effect because the engine is dumping fuel just to keep going. turn the ac off and ride with the windows down will help with the gas

So driving in the highest gear at the lowest speed will result in the best mpg?
Is that harmful for your engine?

Cellerator

06-16-2009, 01:04 AM

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 01:57 AM

no, driving in the highest gear while remaining around 2000-2500 rpms will get you roughly the best gas mileage. Any lower and you may bog the engine down.

As for top speed, best way of reaching it is by going down a long hill where you can see the crest of the next so that you can make sure there aren't any cops. You'll have lots of drag in 4th gear so wait until you reach redline to shift and if you're stock, you may reach 120-125. My fastest was 127 before I let off.

What is drag?

At what point should you shift (to obtain top speed) at each gear?
You should shift when your car reaches max torque in each gear, right?
Anyone know where this point is? Are you supposed to remain at this point for a few moments until you shift, or do you shift right away?
The idea I'm trying to get is the fastest way to go fast (blowup). Like racing a short distance.

And for the best MPG:
Do you shift @ 2.5k rmps after each gear, or @ 3k rpms?

poison

06-16-2009, 03:24 AM

Social, invest in autox weekends, or if you're a baller, a driving school. $2700 buy's you a ton of knowledge. I did http://vehicledynamics.net/ . Outfreakinstanding, I recommend highly.

idrift4wd

06-16-2009, 04:09 AM

What is drag?

At what point should you shift (to obtain top speed) at each gear?
You should shift when your car reaches max torque in each gear, right?
Anyone know where this point is? Are you supposed to remain at this point for a few moments until you shift, or do you shift right away?
The idea I'm trying to get is the fastest way to go fast (blowup). Like racing a short distance.

And for the best MPG:
Do you shift @ 2.5k rmps after each gear, or @ 3k rpms?

okok 1st off, drag= wind resistance, the less you have the faster you could go well in our case less slower lol

you should feel it when to shift. plus you have the freedom of time, so you can keep it in gear if you need that power but if you are on a flat road i dont see why you would need to rev past 3,500. you should drive with a stick driver first, see how he reacts/drives/shifts. seems like you never seen a stick car before. practice makes perfect, and to be honest you shouldnt be worried when to shift or what point. you should be worried on how to use the clutch(correctly)

dxaveP5

06-16-2009, 10:54 AM

^^^ what he said.
Learn how to drive first, trust me a stock protege speeding by someone on the highway isnt gona impress anyone. I tried. and failed.

mp3-79bronco

06-16-2009, 10:59 AM

lol..its a sleeper

johnny mp5

06-16-2009, 01:55 PM

hey dave what lip is that on yours?
looks sick!

Dom 2.0L

06-16-2009, 03:31 PM

hey dave what lip is that on yours?
looks sick!

I believe it's an home made Home Depot lip

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 04:33 PM

okok 1st off, drag= wind resistance, the less you have the faster you could go well in our case less slower lol

you should feel it when to shift. plus you have the freedom of time, so you can keep it in gear if you need that power but if you are on a flat road i dont see why you would need to rev past 3,500. you should drive with a stick driver first, see how he reacts/drives/shifts. seems like you never seen a stick car before. practice makes perfect, and to be honest you shouldnt be worried when to shift or what point. you should be worried on how to use the clutch(correctly)

Mmmk:

So how do you use the clutch correctly?
I've been driving my car (stick) for about a year now, I'm just trying to fine-tune my driving.

I usually let the clutch up slowly, is that the preferred way to let up the clutch with all driving? or are there some secrets?

And as for a protege speeding down the highway;
the idea of going fast is to be able to beat my other poor college friends that drive similar used cars; civic, camry, etc :rolleyes: If the challenge ever arises (guitar)

Cellerator

06-16-2009, 05:45 PM

If you let up the clutch slowly, without giving any gas, you should start feeling when it engages. If you have that down then the rest is easy. Once it starts engaging, then you just have to smoothen out your power delivery and the way you release the clutch. As long as you aren't smelling the clutch, then you're probably good.

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 06:31 PM

dxaveP5

06-16-2009, 06:52 PM

i just learn to get to engagement point let it move a bit then gas and clutch off smoothly.

br289165

06-16-2009, 07:00 PM

If you want fuel economy shift at 2500 in every gear, if you have the distance to take that long to get up to min. posted speed don't lug the motor in any gear, say below 2,000. For hard acceleration shift at 6400 max the motor wont make any more power past that. keep your foot off the clutch and gearshift lever when not using, so they don't wear.I've been driving manuals since 1982 including many motorcycles and I've driven thousands of miles with 10 speed Eaton Fullers every day, so I have a bit of experience.

As you all know, I'm 19, this is my first car, and I'm extremely inexperienced.

I'd like to know 'how' to drive a Manual Protege!
I want to know:
a) How to obtain the best mpg
b) how to drive as fast as possible (burnout)

Lets say your at a stand still. Your the only car on a road, speed limit = 55.
Your in no rush, no cops around, and can drive as fast/as slow as you want.

what points should you shift at to obtain the best mpg ?
--Is it better to end up going 40 mph in 5th gear?
--or is it always better to get 5th gear to 3k rpms to reach maximum mpg?

Post any information you have pertaining to the subject, so we can find the solution!!! (doughpoke

SocialStealth

06-16-2009, 07:39 PM

Cellerator

06-17-2009, 01:24 AM

I have an understanding of where the clutch engages. I steadily give gas as I steadily depress the clutch. Thats right, right?

yeah, you got it. Now practice that on a hill at a complete stop. If you can drive on a hill, you're just about set.

SocialStealth

06-17-2009, 01:31 AM

yeah, you got it. Now practice that on a hill at a complete stop. If you can drive on a hill, you're just about set.

My driveway owns me (sick)

ucMP3

06-17-2009, 09:42 AM

If you don't smell your clutch and you clutch still grabs and engages well and you don't grind your gears. Then you're doing fine... You don't really have to gas as you engage your clutch if you feather it properly tho, or at least it doesn't need very much gas at all. Driving barefoot is nice to get a good feel as well :D I like sandals in the summer time so you can kick em off to drive.

SocialStealth

06-25-2009, 01:01 AM

Is it more efficient to coast to a stop/slow down in neutral, or in gear?

For example, lets say you want to slow down for a light far ahead, Your going 45 mph in 5th gear. Should you put the car into neutral? Or leave it in 5th gear for as long as possible? (Till 1k rpms?)

Also, Lets say the speed limit on a road is 30 mph. Is it more efficient to drive in 4th gear @ 2k rpms @ about 30 mph,
or is it more efficient to speed up to 40 mph and 5th gear @ 2k rpms ???

Cellerator

06-25-2009, 01:19 AM

Personally, if your car has ABS, just stick it in neutral and brake to a stop. If you don't have ABS, just downshift from 5th to 3rd or 2nd and coast to a speed slow enough to stop without worrying about locking up. However, if you just want practice, just engine brake/downshift. I used to do it all the time when I had my P5 w/o ABS.

And for your 2nd question, if the speed limit is 30 and you're worried about getting caught, don't even bother going up to 40 and shifting into 5th. If you're really worried about gas mileage, get a K&N air filter or cold air intake, it helped my mileage a little bit.

SocialStealth

06-25-2009, 03:15 AM

Yeah I have abs..... but do the wheels really lock up that easily?!

And I'm not worried about getting caught, I would just like to know how I should drive to get the best mpg. I'm trying to do that hypermilage thing...

Does the car get the best gas milage in 5th gear? Or does it get comparable milage in 4th and 3rd @ the same rpms (2k)?

I basically want to know if I should try to get to 5th gear and 2k rpms all the time or if its efficient to cruise in the other gears as well

Cellerator

06-25-2009, 11:05 AM

mazdaspeedster3

06-25-2009, 11:08 AM

People actually answered this thead?

cwink

06-25-2009, 12:27 PM

People actually answered this thead?
haha

If I am not mistaken you get better gas mileage at the same RPMs of a higher gear because you are going further per rotation, no?

Also, I have ABS but downshift to brake. It probably uses more gas, but it saves the breaks, especially for long brakes, like downhill and highspeed stops. For typical lights, I will downshift and brake at the same time. And you don't need gas to shift, usually smoother ride that way though.

Also, does anyone double clutch their downshifts? I'm not very good at it, but I don't notice too big of a jerk when I don't do it. Thank you synchronizer, or whatever it is called.

Rockin03mp5

06-25-2009, 01:45 PM

People actually answered this thead?

i was thinking the same, but this thread made my head hurt too much.

and cost of brakes < cost of transmission

and so you dont think i am a douche... here is the how to for all of you!

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123661588&highlight=how+to+drive+a+manual

actually pretty informative

Kymerik

06-25-2009, 01:51 PM

i was thinking the same, but this thread made my head hurt too much.

and cost of brakes < cost of transmission

^^ what he said, engine breaking in a car doesnt make sense to me...makes sense for truckers since they're hauling 40000+lbs and need to stop this side of oblivion...

Throw it in neutral, coast to a redlight....

SocialStealth

06-25-2009, 04:41 PM

If you have ABS, then they won't lock up. But with my P5, if I wanted, I could lock them up pretty easily so I figured out how to not lock them up. Your mileage should be comparable in any gear at 2000 rpm it's just if you press the throttle down, you'll accelerate faster = using more gas. It's really all about feel and how fast you are going, if you are cruising along and just notice you're in 4th gear and 3000 rpm, put it into 5th. If you notice your car is in 5th gear at 1800, drop it into 4th.

So 1800 rpms @ 5th gear is bad?
Because I don't notice the engine bogging down at all if your in cruise control @ 1800 rpms in 5th gear. You wont accellerate much if you try to push on the gas, but it gets better mpg, doesnt it?

It is better to put the car into neutral immediately after you begin to coast to a slow down/stop ? Rather than letting it sit in 5th for a while? Are you guys sure about this? As I know some cars use less gas while in gear.

Cellerator

06-25-2009, 04:43 PM

People actually answered this thead?

sorry, not everyone is a dick about helping people...

To SocialStealth:
I think the best thing to do is just go out and drive, the more you drive, the more you'll just figure the stuff. 1800 rpm is just a rough figure... Don't worry about mileage so much in your first few months of driving, worry more about your actual driving and then the small stuff will come later.

alexelie

06-25-2009, 04:54 PM

i didnt know engine braking was bad...im doing it all the time and i have abs. As it was said, it helps brake and you save the breaks. I dont have a lot of experience but it just what i think.

How can it be bad for transmission? Also, something i wanted to know, does it burn the cluth when engine braking. i mean its like you slip it, right?

cwink

06-25-2009, 04:56 PM

well assuming that a car uses the same amount of gas per rev (which makes sense to me but I am not sure) then a car will use less gas in neutral than in gear because the revolutions go down when you drop to neutral.

The fact that truckers downshift to break with such huge loads makes me feel that it cannot be all that bad for the engine/transmission. However, using your brakes does for a fact wear them down, so if I am not hurting my engine/transmission when i downshift, but am hurting my brakes when i don't, it seems like the obvious choice would be to downshift (well not for MPG). However like I have implied, I am not a car expert, just stating what makes sense to me. PS I hope it isnt hurting my engine cause it is almost habit now.

Cellerator

06-25-2009, 05:00 PM

Engine braking isn't "bad" but you don't need to really do it. If you don't have ABS, it's just to help make sure you don't lock up the brakes as easily. As long as you rev match, then you're safer.

Rockin03mp5

06-25-2009, 10:11 PM

rev matching when you downshift will help, and it shouldnt be bad for the transmission. I used to do it to.

truckers go to a lower gear usually when going downhill. this saves their brakes because the constant load could cause them to fail! that would be worse than the wear on their transmission! your 2800 lb p5 (or sedan) will be ok.

sktyrhrtout@aol

06-27-2009, 02:28 AM

Don't you guys know your injectors turn off when you are engine braking? It's a much better way to save gas and brakes than shifting into neutral, and safer too. Where's the autoshop class in the schools these days???

SocialStealth

06-27-2009, 02:53 AM

sorry, not everyone is a dick about helping people...

To SocialStealth:
I think the best thing to do is just go out and drive, the more you drive, the more you'll just figure the stuff. 1800 rpm is just a rough figure... Don't worry about mileage so much in your first few months of driving, worry more about your actual driving and then the small stuff will come later.

I've been driving a stick for about a year now and I've gotten it down, just trying to get that 45 mpg i hear so much about.

And downshifting wears down your clutch
Braking wears down your brakes.
Brakes = $200
Clutch = $300
And as for the transmission, I assume any type of shifting wears it down. How much wear? i do not know.

I personally try to coast to a stop (except when braking is necessary for safety), so I dont wear down the brakes or clutch :) Also gets better gas milage.

Kurtanius21

06-27-2009, 03:34 AM

I've been driving a stick for about a year now and I've gotten it down, just trying to get that 45 mpg i hear so much about.

And downshifting wears down your clutch
Braking wears down your brakes.
Brakes = $200
Clutch = $300
And as for the transmission, I assume any type of shifting wears it down. How much wear? i do not know.

I personally try to coast to a stop (except when braking is necessary for safety), so I dont wear down the brakes or clutch :) Also gets better gas milage.

I would agree with this. Unless you have rev matching down to nature, shifting wears the clutch. The Clutch uses friction to spin the disks. everytime the disks contact and are not synchronized perfectly, friction eats away at the clutch. Brakes are cheaper to replace than the clutch. So unless you're going downhill or got have mastered rev matching, brakes are most cost effective.

Rockin03mp5

06-27-2009, 08:51 AM

sktyrhrtout@aol

06-27-2009, 11:05 AM

you joined just to post this?

Yes, somebody has to educate the masses.

BoostedPR5

06-27-2009, 11:07 AM

Yes, somebody has to educate the masses.

Man you're cool. Although I already knew that, so maybe I'm not the masses...oh noes!

Anyways as far as wearing the clutch just don't suck at downshifting lol how much faster is it REALLY going to wear out your clutch from that is the real question...

simpson227

06-27-2009, 01:09 PM

I've only been driving stick for 6 months now and i figured out that by shifting at 3000 rpms I get good mpg. I usually coast when I stop and downshift when exiting the highway. What I was not sure about if the car does use more fuel when down shifting from high speeds. Also this is my first car and im looking for a gear shift knob soley for the looks. Can anybody direct to websites or places in Toronto?

drgnzadiel101

06-28-2009, 01:45 AM

http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/driving-habits/fuel-economy-tip-avoid-engine-braking/

Bret2002

06-28-2009, 01:45 AM

engine braking is not bad for your engine or transmission but if done improperly can wear the clutch down but clutches wear down, they will have to be replaced eventually anyways you know?

br289165

06-28-2009, 03:47 AM

If done properly, downshifting or using the engine to brake will not wear the clutch significantly. I shift down between 2500 and 3000 rpms, tap the throttle to match engine speed with road speed when the clutch is depressed, this will put even less abuse on the clutch.

I've only been driving stick for 6 months now and i figured out that by shifting at 3000 rpms I get good mpg. I usually coast when I stop and downshift when exiting the highway. What I was not sure about if the car does use more fuel when down shifting from high speeds. Also this is my first car and im looking for a gear shift knob soley for the looks. Can anybody direct to websites or places in Toronto?

br289165

06-28-2009, 03:51 AM

You will wear the brakes much faster if you coast and don't downshift, even in a 2700 lb car. It's actually illegal in tractor trailers to coast more than the distance of the length of the semi-truck.

ote=Kymerik;4662219]^^ what he said, engine breaking in a car doesnt make sense to me...makes sense for truckers since they're hauling 40000+lbs and need to stop this side of oblivion...

Throw it in neutral, coast to a redlight....[/quote]

Rockin03mp5

06-28-2009, 09:16 AM

http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/driving-habits/fuel-economy-tip-avoid-engine-braking/

you cannot believe everything you see on the internet.

You will wear the brakes much faster if you coast and don't downshift, even in a 2700 lb car. It's actually illegal in tractor trailers to coast more than the distance of the length of the semi-truck.

so... my auto p5 is going to eat brakes huh?

and it is also illegal to engine brake your semi in most metropolitan areas, because of how loud it can be.

now engine braking is usefull if done properly. it keeps you in gear so if you suddenly have to accelerate... you will be able to. and it shouldnt damage your transmission or clutch (unless you go to 2nd when you meant 4th).

mazdaspeedster3

06-28-2009, 09:27 AM

sorry, not everyone is a dick about helping people...

To SocialStealth:
I think the best thing to do is just go out and drive, the more you drive, the more you'll just figure the stuff. 1800 rpm is just a rough figure... Don't worry about mileage so much in your first few months of driving, worry more about your actual driving and then the small stuff will come later.

So I am a dick now? Wow...

Enging braking, using the engine to HELP you slow down, not as the soul source of braking saves a ton in gas. The ECU will cut ALL fuel delivery to the engine when engine braking and compression alone cycles the engine. Coasting with the clutch in or in nuetral idles and burns gas. Fairly common knowledge.

mazdaspeedster3

06-28-2009, 09:31 AM

I would agree with this. Unless you have rev matching down to nature, shifting wears the clutch. The Clutch uses friction to spin the disks. everytime the disks contact and are not synchronized perfectly, friction eats away at the clutch. Brakes are cheaper to replace than the clutch. So unless you're going downhill or got have mastered rev matching, brakes are most cost effective.

What does rev matching have to do with the clutch? Nothing... Rev matching is for the synchros in your transmission, not your clutch. Rev matching is also VERY overrated. When not spirited driving the synchros in your transmission do everything for you. Most if not all of the cars on here are built within the last 10 years. If for example you are not going 100 and need to go down to 25 in a very short distance and are down shifting into lower gears with very high RPMS rev matching or blipping as some would call it is useless and you are burning gas unecesarily. May sound cool and you may think you are learning to "heel toe" but it is unneeded and doesnt matter to the down shift.

Rockin03mp5

06-28-2009, 09:35 AM

idling burns gas... yes, but very minimal. now if you downshift proper, and rev-match, you have to give it a little gas right? so does that offset the difference in just putting in the clutch?

im surprised no one was a real dick and just said the usual use the search button bs.

and i thought double clutching saved the synchros, since they were there so you didnt have to double clutch.

mazdaspeedster3

06-28-2009, 09:41 AM

Double clutching? Pushing the clutch in, taking it out of gear, pushing the clutch in, putting it in the next gear....? Why would our cars ever need to do this? F&F brought this out and in a race that is the last thing you would ever do. Take forever to get to the next gear. Down shift while applying brakes, they help each other. In DD driving you are not hurting anything, trust me. Rev matching is doing nothing for you except making you think about something instead of just driving safely. Also, if you are not rev matching correctly everyone else in the car will think you are a horrible manual driver.

BoostedPR5

06-28-2009, 10:23 AM

now engine braking is usefull if done properly. it keeps you in gear so if you suddenly have to accelerate... you will be able to. and it shouldnt damage your transmission or clutch (unless you go to 2nd when you meant 4th).

It's pretty loud when you do that...not that I ever have.

Kurtanius21

06-29-2009, 01:29 AM

What does rev matching have to do with the clutch? Nothing... Rev matching is for the synchros in your transmission, not your clutch. Rev matching is also VERY overrated. When not spirited driving the synchros in your transmission do everything for you. Most if not all of the cars on here are built within the last 10 years. If for example you are not going 100 and need to go down to 25 in a very short distance and are down shifting into lower gears with very high RPMS rev matching or blipping as some would call it is useless and you are burning gas unecesarily. May sound cool and you may think you are learning to "heel toe" but it is unneeded and doesnt matter to the down shift.

Ok, Synchronizers have nothing to do with rev matching. In our transaxle, there are two shafts, the imput and output shaft. The imput contacts the flywheel and takes power from the engine. Now in order to use gears in the first place, you need two different rotating objects with useful gear ratios. The output shaft provides this. The Output shaft is connected to the wheels. The wheels turn the output shaft however fast they want. The gears ride on bearings, so they travel at whatever speed they want. Whenever a gear is engaged, the synchronizers must match the gear speeds to the imput shaft speed to prevent grinding. Synchronizers have nothing to do with motor rpms. How could rev matching have anything to do with the transmission when the transimission isn't even recieving imput from the engine while the clutch pedal is disengaged? Whenever you rev match, you're matching the speed at which the wheels are driving the output shaft, gear, and imput shaft to the engine speed.

Keep in mind also, even in nuetral, you still grind the clutch. When in nuetral, the imput shaft is spinning indenpendent of the output shaft, so it rotates at whatever speed it likes. So while it is true that you still wear away the clutch when you engage the clutch in nuetral, greater wear still occurs from downshifiting if rev matching is not used correctly. Keep in mind the clutch components are moving at thousands of revolutions per minute. If the engine speed is only off by a slight amount, that can still amount to 100s of rpm difference, that's wear and tear on your clutch.

SocialStealth

06-29-2009, 09:50 AM

This is a pretty interesting thread, i'm glad I started it (drinks)

Lately I've been coasting to a stop and not driving over 40 mph. (put it in cruise control soon as I reach 2k rpms in 5th gear).

...except for one day when I was running a bit late with things and I had to drive a little faster....

I'll fill up the tank later today and tell you what mpg I got.

But I don't plan on downshifting, or braking. Braking = wasting motion that i used gas to create. So i do as little of it as possible. But I do need to stop for the occasional unplanned stoplight change.

Does double shifting really accomplish anything? I live in a medium sized town. Not a city. So I can pretty much drive however I want, as there arnt that many cars on the road.

Sport23

06-29-2009, 11:07 AM

Careful driving can raise ur mpg over using cruise control. Coast down the hills and very gently ease onto the gas for the next hill. Cruise control is programmed to keep your car at a constant speed not max mpg, that being said many people have a heavy foot so cruise does save them some gas. If you want to maximize your gas mileage you can get your car tuned and lean it out a bit if you have the money. Also, grab a vacuum gauge and drive for maximum vacuum.

Rockin03mp5

06-29-2009, 01:20 PM

double shifting is only usefull if you want really strong legs!

and for best mpg... always drive downhill

Kurtanius21

06-29-2009, 03:20 PM

Yesterday I realized how much I need practice with a stick shift. I had to do parallel parking on an uphill. It was so stressful and I came close many times to hitting the car behind me. I'll never be able to visit San Francisco like this =/

SocialStealth

06-29-2009, 10:23 PM

It came out to 30 mpg. Not a big leap from the 28 mpg I average with normal driving. Not what I expected. Maybe I'll get better at this...

br289165

06-30-2009, 12:57 AM

Double clutching is not necessary with synchronized transmissions such as ours, it is used mostly with semi truck shifting, which have unsynch'd tranny's.

This is a pretty interesting thread, i'm glad I started it (drinks)

Lately I've been coasting to a stop and not driving over 40 mph. (put it in cruise control soon as I reach 2k rpms in 5th gear).

...except for one day when I was running a bit late with things and I had to drive a little faster....

I'll fill up the tank later today and tell you what mpg I got.

But I don't plan on downshifting, or braking. Braking = wasting motion that i used gas to create. So i do as little of it as possible. But I do need to stop for the occasional unplanned stoplight change.

Does double shifting really accomplish anything? I live in a medium sized town. Not a city. So I can pretty much drive however I want, as there arnt that many cars on the road.

br289165

06-30-2009, 01:07 AM

1st of all my Mi. neighbor, there are 2 types of engine braking when referring to semi trucks. One does not use a jake brake, the engine braking effect is caused by simple downshifting, the second effect is caused by the use of an optional Jacobs brake which shuts down, I believe 2 of the common 6 cylinders and causes a much more drastic slowdown in braking, but not all trucks have jake brakes. It is usually illegal in populated communities to use jake brakes, due to the excessive exhaust popping noise from the added compression effect of the engine brake.Regular engine braking does not create any more noise than upshifting and is therefore not illegal. I know, because I've been driving 18 wheel 10 speeds with and without Jake brakes for a long time. Even though we weren't really mentioning auto P5's, the auto's can engine brake just the same. May I ask how old you are?

you cannot believe everything you see on the internet.

so... my auto p5 is going to eat brakes huh?

and it is also illegal to engine brake your semi in most metropolitan areas, because of how loud it can be.

now engine braking is usefull if done properly. it keeps you in gear so if you suddenly have to accelerate... you will be able to. and it shouldnt damage your transmission or clutch (unless you go to 2nd when you meant 4th).

isbre

06-30-2009, 04:57 AM

Isn't there three ways, downshifting, shutting down cylinders and exhaust restriction? Also Telma (Electrical) and Retarter (hydraulic) helping brakes should not be forgotten. Engine braking a car is very nice to save both gas and brakes, just not overdo it like I did. I have to replace my front rotors because they are so rusted on the back side that my car didn't pass inspection, apparently there is such a thing as using your brakes too little.

In my experience you only feather the clutch when starting or downshifting without revmatching, when driving it's actually best to think of the clutch as a digital switch. I still remember when I was in the military and was taking truck driving lessons and the driving intructor shouted to me: "WTF are you doing!?! it's nothing to be thinking about, just let it go" The reason for this is pretty simple: less friction time to wear down the clutch. Just remember this, mess this up when downshifting and you may damage your transmission, so this is not for inexperienced stickshift drivers.

To get the best milage you have to think about whats burning up fuel unnecessary: Basicly breaking down to later accelerate, ideling and shifting.
To get the best milage on a highway with a engine @ working temperature gently accelerate to 6k RPM in the first gear and then go directly to 5th and leave it there as long as the engine runs smoothly, in my MSP that's around 2k RPM on a straight road. Just remember that as soon as the engine bogs down it dumps fuel into the engine to keep it going and this affects the gas milage, so downshift in time. Going 35 mph I usually use 4th even though 5th is possible. When meeting a red light I find it best to keep it in gear down to around 1500 RPM and then shifting into neutral whithout using the clutch at all, manual transmissions are designed for this and this method will save both gas and clutch wear.

But especially in the US where gas is so cheap, my advice is to just go ahead and get to know the car and try to remember what RPM ranges the car will run at in different gears before trying hard to get hypermilage. The Proteges aren't exactly hypermilage cars anyways, with my MSP I mostly get 30-34mpg on slow highways myself (where my 96 Hyundai Elantra wagon beater car I can get 40, and with my parent's diesel car 55mpg is achievable.)

Rockin03mp5

06-30-2009, 09:14 AM

1st of all my Mi. neighbor, there are 2 types of engine braking when referring to semi trucks. One does not use a jake brake, the engine braking effect is caused by simple downshifting, the second effect is caused by the use of an optional Jacobs brake which shuts down, I believe 2 of the common 6 cylinders and causes a much more drastic slowdown in braking, but not all trucks have jake brakes. It is usually illegal in populated communities to use jake brakes, due to the excessive exhaust popping noise from the added compression effect of the engine brake.Regular engine braking does not create any more noise than upshifting and is therefore not illegal. I know, because I've been driving 18 wheel 10 speeds with and without Jake brakes for a long time. Even though we weren't really mentioning auto P5's, the auto's can engine brake just the same. May I ask how old you are?

i know about the jake brakes. you were saying it is illegal to coast... which seems funny to me. (is it a MI thing? cause i will ask msp next time i see them)

I know my auto can engine brake, but i do have the manumatic, which makes it easier to. regular autos would have tougher times. i think if you avoid hard braking, you will help your brakes out more than just always trying to engine brake. technically though, to avoid hard braking, you will have to engine brake, or at least get off of the gas, earlier.

and what does my age have to do with anything?

br289165

06-30-2009, 06:48 PM

Just wondering. If you ask the MSP make sure it's one driving a Suburban cause they're the D.O.T. guys who would know. I was taught that rule in Arkansas and Tennessee also.

i know about the jake brakes. you were saying it is illegal to coast... which seems funny to me. (is it a MI thing? cause i will ask msp next time i see them)

I know my auto can engine brake, but i do have the manumatic, which makes it easier to. regular autos would have tougher times. i think if you avoid hard braking, you will help your brakes out more than just always trying to engine brake. technically though, to avoid hard braking, you will have to engine brake, or at least get off of the gas, earlier.

and what does my age have to do with anything?

br289165

06-30-2009, 06:57 PM

I always love the technical guys and their theory, no offense, but ask a truck driver who can't hardly read, but has been driving trucks for 30 years I'll bet the tech jargon means next to nothing to him, but he can drive the truck better than any engineer will ever be able to and thats what really matters. Theory wont get you from point A to B if you don't know how to drive. And of course there's always the people who think they can drive and but really can't when it comes down to it.

Isn't there three ways, downshifting, shutting down cylinders and exhaust restriction? Also Telma (Electrical) and Retarter (hydraulic) helping brakes should not be forgotten. Engine braking a car is very nice to save both gas and brakes, just not overdo it like I did. I have to replace my front rotors because they are so rusted on the back side that my car didn't pass inspection, apparently there is such a thing as using your brakes too little.

In my experience you only feather the clutch when starting or downshifting without revmatching, when driving it's actually best to think of the clutch as a digital switch. I still remember when I was in the military and was taking truck driving lessons and the driving intructor shouted to me: "WTF are you doing!?! it's nothing to be thinking about, just let it go" The reason for this is pretty simple: less friction time to wear down the clutch. Just remember this, mess this up when downshifting and you may damage your transmission, so this is not for inexperienced stickshift drivers.

To get the best milage you have to think about whats burning up fuel unnecessary: Basicly breaking down to later accelerate, ideling and shifting.
To get the best milage on a highway with a engine @ working temperature gently accelerate to 6k RPM in the first gear and then go directly to 5th and leave it there as long as the engine runs smoothly, in my MSP that's around 2k RPM on a straight road. Just remember that as soon as the engine bogs down it dumps fuel into the engine to keep it going and this affects the gas milage, so downshift in time. Going 35 mph I usually use 4th even though 5th is possible. When meeting a red light I find it best to keep it in gear down to around 1500 RPM and then shifting into neutral whithout using the clutch at all, manual transmissions are designed for this and this method will save both gas and clutch wear.

But especially in the US where gas is so cheap, my advice is to just go ahead and get to know the car and try to remember what RPM ranges the car will run at in different gears before trying hard to get hypermilage. The Proteges aren't exactly hypermilage cars anyways, with my MSP I mostly get 30-34mpg on slow highways myself (where my 96 Hyundai Elantra wagon beater car I can get 40, and with my parent's diesel car 55mpg is achievable.)

justanothermp5

06-30-2009, 07:01 PM

i found the best way to take off was to rev to 5k and drop the clutch

lol jk

BoostedPR5

06-30-2009, 07:37 PM

i found the best way to take off was to rev to 5k and drop the clutch

lol jk

Smokey burnouts ftw

Rockin03mp5

06-30-2009, 09:02 PM

Just wondering. If you ask the MSP make sure it's one driving a Suburban cause they're the D.O.T. guys who would know. I was taught that rule in Arkansas and Tennessee also.

yup.. i know. the motor carrier division

they used to say that on their vehicles too, but they took that off.

isbre

07-01-2009, 03:13 PM

SocialStealth

07-03-2009, 04:03 AM

When I'm coasting, the car slows down more when it is in gear than when it is in neutral.

Is this because less gas goes to the engine when it is in gear?
Or am I just wearing something down by doing this?

ToNeZ90

07-03-2009, 11:34 AM

Also, does anyone double clutch their downshifts? I'm not very good at it, but I don't notice too big of a jerk when I don't do it. Thank you synchronizer, or whatever it is called.

i Heel Toe shift occasionally. pain in the a$$ to get down but its good for slowing down suddenly. smoother and wont leave ur transmission 50ft behind ya(rofl)

i coast to a stop. leaves the engine at under 1k rpm. helps me on gas. plus, after u hit 50 mph i sometimes put it in neutral and leave it like that till i hit 40, then put it in 5th and rev-match it then slowly go back up to 50mph. takes a bit for it to hit 40 though.

and it slows down faster in gear cuz the gears are getting friction and since u arent gassing it just slows down the car.

SocialStealth

07-03-2009, 02:51 PM

i Heel Toe shift occasionally. pain in the a$$ to get down but its good for slowing down suddenly. smoother and wont leave ur transmission 50ft behind ya(rofl)

i coast to a stop. leaves the engine at under 1k rpm. helps me on gas. plus, after u hit 50 mph i sometimes put it in neutral and leave it like that till i hit 40, then put it in 5th and rev-match it then slowly go back up to 50mph. takes a bit for it to hit 40 though.

and it slows down faster in gear cuz the gears are getting friction and since u arent gassing it just slows down the car.

So is it more fuel efficient to leave the car in gear or to put it in neutral to coast to a stop?

isbre

07-03-2009, 07:11 PM

So is it more fuel efficient to leave the car in gear or to put it in neutral to coast to a stop?

If you leave it in gear the movement of the wheels keeps the engine going and the ECU cuts all fuel. If your put your car in neutral the car uses gas like standing still @ idle.

ToNeZ90

07-03-2009, 11:03 PM

^^^ not to start any arguements but wouldnt it be a little more economic for the engine to be in idle rpm than 2-3k? and better for the transmission?

Edit: or am i wrong about that?

Kurtanius21

07-03-2009, 11:17 PM

If you leave it in gear the movement of the wheels keeps the engine going and the ECU cuts all fuel. If your put your car in neutral the car uses gas like standing still @ idle.

I don't get this. Everyone says that the ECU stops delivering fuel when coasting. If this were true, why does the motor still rumble and make sound?
In my mind, only combustion can make such a sound. IF the engine did not recieve fuel, shouldn't the only sound I hear is the wheel roll?

ToNeZ90

07-03-2009, 11:41 PM

magnumP5

07-03-2009, 11:42 PM

So much bad information in this thread I need to intervene and I don't even have my P5 anymore...

I will first off state that low-RPM driving != good gas mileage all the time. If you're putting around in high gear and need to accelerate you will do one of two things. You will either stay in gear and mash on the gas or downshift and apply a little more throttle. Both means burn a lot of fuel. In high gear you are bogging the engine and are way out of the engine's efficiency range and by downshifting you are popping the engine speed up and giving it more throtte, which also burns fuel. These cars are the most efficient at an engine speed between 2500-3000 RPM. This is why most people get the best gas mileage in 5th gear going ~50 mph. This engine speed range is also good because it allows you to make small changes in speed without having to downshift or upshift. This fact remains the same for all cars but all engines have different efficiencies so the most efficient engine speed is different for all cars.

Next, above 1500 RPM, if the throttle is not depressed the engine DOES cut fuel, but not all of it. The throttle plate closes, but air still enters the intake via the throttle body and the idle adjustment screw (IAS). If you are above 1500 RPM and left off the throttle the car will run very lean (>18:1) until either the engine speed drops below 1500 RPM or you re-apply throttle. With that being said, it is much more efficient, both in fuel economy and braking, by letting off the throttle to decelerate when coming to a stop. This is true of all manual cars using stock engine control units.

I find it so funny that all the people can come on here spouting "facts" when in fact they know very little about these cars. The best advice? Drive the car the way that you find best. You will know what is/is not smooth and you will very quickly find the style that works best for you - it just takes time. After owning the P5 for four years I had it down pretty well and could easily maintain 25+ mpg all around, even with the turbocharger.

/thread

isbre

07-04-2009, 06:12 AM

I don't get this. Everyone says that the ECU stops delivering fuel when coasting. If this were true, why does the motor still rumble and make sound?
In my mind, only combustion can make such a sound. IF the engine did not recieve fuel, shouldn't the only sound I hear is the wheel roll?

Well OK magnumP5, I still don't know if my car cuts fuel or cuts the spark, I have read some long discussions about this and haven't found the answer yet. Anyway, it uses much less than keeping the engine ideling.

When you're coasting the engine is still moving like it was before. Think about what you hear when driving, do you hear the rumble for from the moving pistons, valves and exhaust or do you hear the fuel burning?

Even though magnumP5 was a bit more direct about it I gave the same advice in my first post in this thread, just drive like normal. I certainly am, and with highway records of 42mpg with gasoline and 66mpg with a diesel I must be doing something right.

magnumP5

07-04-2009, 09:04 AM

^^^ isbre, for all intents and purposes you are correct to say "the ECU cuts fuel" as the air/fuel ratio is very lean during this condition - just enough to keep the engine firing so it is still running. It's just as Kurtanius21 mentioned, the engine does not actually shut off so technically some fuel delivery is required.

Again, the answer the intent of the original post. There is no "correct" way to drive stick. Sure, there is a set procedure you must follow (clutch out, throttle in, etc.) but the timing, amount of throttle applied, etc. is all very subjective. I learned to drive a manual transmission largely on my old P5. I worked at a used car dealership (where I found my P5) so I had to learn quickly. The first manual car I drove was a BMW Z3 Roadster and all I had was someone ride with me and tell me the basics I mentioned above. Ever since then it's been all me. I now only drive manual transmissions - '09 Tacoma 6-speed and a '89 RX-7. Anyway, the simple point is - drive in whatever matter best fits you. You will find the best compromise of fuel economy and spirited driving, etc.

SocialStealth

07-06-2009, 11:18 PM

Kurtanius21

07-07-2009, 12:28 AM

[QUOTE=magnumP5;4679705... I now only drive manual transmissions - '09 Tacoma 6-speed and a '89 RX-7.

Hah, wonder what it's like driving manual in one of those giant things. It must feel pretty powerful.

magnumP5

07-07-2009, 12:40 PM

So after the car reaches under 1500 rpm it no longer reduces the fuel and basically goes into idle?

Because at 1500 rpm in 5th gear, my cars still coasting at around 30 mph.

To save gas, Lets say i'm coasting from 50 mph to a stop. Should I coast in 5th gear till 1500 rpms, then downshift into 4th and coast to 1500 then 3rd to 1500 then 2nd to 1500 ?

Or could I just stay in 5th till it goes down to 1000 rmps//20 mph, and maybe shift into 2nd?
This is possible but it would be hell on your transmission to not rev-match at all, which is what would be required. As soon as you touch the throttle the car goes back in closed loop control and tries to maintain the 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio. In my opinion, you're better off just leaving it in the gear you were last, winding it all the way down to almost stall and then push the clutch in. To me, that makes for the best compromise between a smooth and quick stop. The only time I downshift is when I'm driving in slippery conditions or I know I'll be accelerating soon.

Hah, wonder what it's like driving manual in one of those giant things. It must feel pretty powerful.
Man, I'll tell you - it's very different from the Protege. Long gears, long throws and the clutch pretty much has to be all the way out to be engaged. When I still had the P5 it always felt like I was driving a big rig after switching back to the truck. It's nice because it actually have a pretty tall, and therefore useful first gear.

SocialStealth

07-07-2009, 01:46 PM

This is possible but it would be hell on your transmission to not rev-match at all, which is what would be required. As soon as you touch the throttle the car goes back in closed loop control and tries to maintain the 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio. In my opinion, you're better off just leaving it in the gear you were last, winding it all the way down to almost stall and then push the clutch in. To me, that makes for the best compromise between a smooth and quick stop. The only time I downshift is when I'm driving in slippery conditions or I know I'll be accelerating soon.

Man, I'll tell you - it's very different from the Protege. Long gears, long throws and the clutch pretty much has to be all the way out to be engaged. When I still had the P5 it always felt like I was driving a big rig after switching back to the truck. It's nice because it actually have a pretty tall, and therefore useful first gear.

Someone said the engine only reduces the fuel until 1500 rpms?

magnumP5

07-07-2009, 03:28 PM

Someone said the engine only reduces the fuel until 1500 rpms?
That was me. My old P5 was turbocharged so I had a wideband oxygen sensor and gauge installed. When I let off the throttle completely above 1500 RPM or so the gauge would read "---", which corresponded to air:fuel ratios above 18:1. While cruising around the stock computer tries to maintain the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline of 14.7:1. Obviously less fuel = better fuel economy. This is why it is much better to coast in gear going down a hill than in neutral.

It's tricky to explain how this works because even though the throttle plate is shut, air still enters the intake manifold and fuel is still added (this is how the engine stays alive). The throttle adjustment screw (TAS) controls how much air bypasses the throttle plate and works in conjunction with idle air controller (IAC) to maintain the idle.

thecrash91

07-07-2009, 04:15 PM

^you make my head hurt with all that knowledge

SocialStealth

07-07-2009, 07:12 PM

That was me. My old P5 was turbocharged so I had a wideband oxygen sensor and gauge installed. When I let off the throttle completely above 1500 RPM or so the gauge would read "---", which corresponded to air:fuel ratios above 18:1. While cruising around the stock computer tries to maintain the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline of 14.7:1. Obviously less fuel = better fuel economy. This is why it is much better to coast in gear going down a hill than in neutral.

It's tricky to explain how this works because even though the throttle plate is shut, air still enters the intake manifold and fuel is still added (this is how the engine stays alive). The throttle adjustment screw (TAS) controls how much air bypasses the throttle plate and works in conjunction with idle air controller (IAC) to maintain the idle.

...so am I saving gas when I keep it in gear until 20 mph//1000 rpms? Or is it pointless to leave the car in gear under 1500 rpms?

And thank you for all the knowledge. Your spitting it out like day old gum and at this rate, I think I'm starting a used gum collection.

magnumP5

07-07-2009, 09:32 PM

...so am I saving gas when I keep it in gear until 20 mph//1000 rpms? Or is it pointless to leave the car in gear under 1500 rpms?

And thank you for all the knowledge. Your spitting it out like day old gum and at this rate, I think I'm starting a used gum collection.
Honestly, at that point the savings are probably pretty small. You should be able to feel the ECU kick in the idle control somewhere around 1000-1500 RPM. On my P5 it was a little harder to feel (with all the modifications) but my truck does the same thing around 1200 RPM. It literally feels like the car will drive itself and keep from stalling but I don't think there's enough power to keep it going for too long without some input. With my P5 I always let the RPM drop to around 1000 RPM because that's where the control kicked back in. It will be different for yours because I imagine it's probably stock. Also, any load on the engine (A/C, turning, etc.) the control will kick back in sooner and "harder" (ie, more noticeable). Below this point it isn't really that you're not saving gas or not but you're no better off than you would be in neutral, if that makes any sense.

As for knowing all this I owned my P5 for 4 years and I've been a member here for nearly four years as well. Lots of reading and searching and I still don't know as much as some members (though we are a little harder to find these days). I'm still kind of sad I sold the P5, but I should have fund with the RX-7.

SocialStealth

07-08-2009, 02:01 AM

Ha if you ever get bored with it, I'll trade you a p5 for an rx-7 any time :)

But yet another question I've stumbled upon while driving is...

Is it more economic to maintain a steady speed? (staying at 40 mph // 5th gear@ 2000 rpms)

Or to accelerate and take your foot completely off the gas repetitively ?
(45mph // 5th gear@2500 rpms, take foot off gas until 40 mph // 5th gear@ 2000 rpms, repeat)

I'm going to make up some numbers to further explain this...
Lets say with your foot keeping a steady 40 mph, the engine requires a 10/1 fuel/air ratio.
Now lets say slowly accelerating from 40 mph to 45 mph requires a 9/1 ratio.
Taking your foot completely off the gas lets the engine take an 18/1 ratio.

Therefore, using the completely made up numbers mentioned above, the short moment of coasting with an 18/1 ratio obtained from accelerating @ a 9/1 ratio saves more gas than if you maintained a 10/1 ratio.

Once again, all the numbers mentioned above are completely fictional. Does anyone have any ideas on the real numbers? I'm very curious to find this answer!

magnumP5

07-08-2009, 08:34 AM

^^^ No, it's definitely better to cruise at a constant speed. When driving around normally, the ECU is in what is called closed-loop control. The air/fuel ratio is maintained by preset values stores in the ECU, which are then modified based on information from the mass air sensor (MAS) and primary oxygen sensor. At wide-open throttle (WOT) and high RPM driving (above 5500 RPM or so) the ECU switches into open-loop control in which the air/fuel ratio is controlled completely by preset values (no input from sensors). This latter control state is where Mazda's characteristic rich tune comes into play.

Anyhow, getting back to your question about maintaining speed vs accelerating/decelerating. All engines have set efficiencies and it's almost never the lowest RPM. I've always said miles per gallon (mpg) is not a good indicator of an engine's efficiency and that rather a specific fuel consumption (volume per time per power). You'll see that a given power output there is a given "sweet spot" engine speed for efficiency. I've always said 2500 RPM is a good speed to cruise at for these cars.

SocialStealth

07-08-2009, 02:37 PM

ok, so 2500rpms is more efficient than 2000rpms.

So when going down a slight hill with the intentions of continuing your drive and not stopping, is it better to coast in gear down the hill (even if it means slowing down slightly) or to just maintain the RPMs? (which would mean increasing speed slightly)

magnumP5

07-08-2009, 03:09 PM

I personally think 2500 RPM is best but that is me; you'll find a lot of differing opinions here. As for your last question you're really nitpicking here. I have to ask, why are you so concerned with fuel economy that you're debating between the difference between 2000 and 2500 RPM? I drive in a manner that my speed remains constant to what I desire. If the hill is steep and I start to speed up, I let off the gas, if it's shallow and reduce throttle input. Honestly, out of all the questions you are asking you will not notice a difference in fuel economy either way, and a lot of the actions you mention really seem like inconveniences to me. You should drive the car in a manner that feels best to you. When I had my P5 I kept the engine speeds at or above 2500 RPM at all times while moving, unless I was slowing down coming to a stop. I still easily managed over 25 mi/gal city and well over 30 mi/gal highway, which exceeds the EPA estimation for the car. Now when I first got the P5 and was getting used to the manual transmission those numbers were more like 19 and 24 mi/gal. It takes time, but you get used to the car.

SocialStealth

07-09-2009, 06:17 AM

At the beginning of this thread I was averaging 25-28 mpg.
After having these questions answered and 'nit picking' my driving habits, I've managed to triumph with 33 mpg today. But I still think I can do better.
(driving has been constant through the same daily commute)
They might sound like inconveniences but its is rather easy to manipulate the rpms to a certain degree.

As for another question...

Is it more economic to use cruise control to maintain your speed or is a steady foot the best method? I'm afraid cruise control might run a little rich just to make a smoother ride, but I honestly have no idea.

Sorry for all the stupid questions, but they really do help :)

magnumP5

07-09-2009, 08:11 AM

Unless you are in open loop or off throttle above ~1500 RPM the ECU is in closed loop and will try to maintain a 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio regardless of engine speed (as long as it's below ~5500 RPM). It's only when you mash on the gas or go above 5500 RPM that the ECU goes into open loop control and starts running rich.

So to answer your question, cruise control has no impact on the air:fuel ratios. Unless you are really skilled it is unlikely a "steady foot" would net better fuel economy. I got pretty good at that because I had removed the CC altogether and I still managed 30+ mpg on the highway.

What I think you're getting yourself into here is called hyper-miling and I believe they have their own forum (they call themselves Gas Savers or something like that). I don't believe in 90% of the crap they do/claim but whatever floats your boat.