Breaking News: US plans to receive Ford Focus RS Canceled

[mikeyb]

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2009/3/large/2009-ford-focus-rs_11.jpg

About a month ago WCF published a story about a Ford Focus RS spotted in Michigan (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090505.022/ford-focus-rs-heading-stateside). This raised some hopes of Ford taking some RS stock stateside. Further fueling this speculation was an interview done by Automotive News with Ford's director of advanced product creation and global performance, Hermann Salenbauch, in which the man was quoted as saying his company was looking for feedback (about the RS) from media and the public. "How much do they like it? Is it really what they want? We are pretty confident that it is," he said.

Fast forward to now and it appears the wind has changed direction. AutoCar interviewed Jost Capito, the new head of Ford's global performance division. Capito and his team of bean counters reckon the whole exercise of homologating the RS for North American consumption would be too pricey to bear.

"We'd like to," said Capito, "but the base car (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090527.006/us-plans-to-receive-ford-focus-rs-canceled#) isn't homologated for North America and that's too costly a job to carry out just for a niche vehicle like the RS."

Again we cannot help but wonder how it is that Ford's best-performing hatchback ever will not be sold on the Blue Oval's home soil. That's a bit like Sony selling the PlayStation console series everywhere else but in Japan.

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[jred321]

meh. high power fwd cars are pointless anyways. until they go with awd i'm not missing it

[mazdaspeedster3]

Darn, I should have bet everyone. I knew it wasnt coming.

[Flash5]

damn that stinks, i was really hoping it was gonna be coming here

[Silver Ecstasy]

I agree that now isn't the time, but my faith holds out that we will eventually see the bliss that is the Ford Focus RS!

[coolmazda5]

Booooh, at least bring the ST like in south of the border

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well, if not this version, the next-gen Focus RS should come stateside by the time the economy starts to lift.

[clicknext]

What's the difference between the RS and the regular euro focus? Is the regular one still coming?

[bani]

can't let anything threaten mustang sales.

[Wagonbacker9]

What's the difference between the RS and the regular euro focus? Is the regular one still coming?

about 200hp.... lol

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

This is the most ridiculous thing i´ve ever heard... They are just scared to get the cobras and mostangs, and vettes, camaros etc, to get pounded by a car like the RS, they know this little car will break the sales of any V8 vehicle made and sold in USA, not to mension the MPG difference between them. no homologating what ? there is nothing to homologate besides the way the head lights lighting work... Europe is more strict than USA, in here they really do make things they way they should. just my .02 cents since i´ve lived in both continents...

[MazdaSpeeder]

I was really hoping for this...bummer.

[tunersteve]

I can understand why this one won't be coming over. Give it a few years and once the plants are retooled and the Focus rides on its global platform, bringing a Focus RS (SVT) over here won't be as costly as it would have been.

Let's be serious, how many people would have paid $30K+ for a Focus? Not too many. It has nothing to do with the Mustang and other sports cars, it's just not cost-effective right now.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I can understand why this one won't be coming over. Give it a few years and once the plants are retooled and the Focus rides on its global platform, bringing a Focus RS (SVT) over here won't be as costly as it would have been.

Let's be serious, how many people would have paid $30K+ for a Focus? Not too many. It has nothing to do with the Mustang and other sports cars, it's just not cost-effective right now.


How can you say a Focus worth 30k ? Do you have any knowledge about what RS means, history background etc ? i can tell you have no idea buddy... Ford Europe and their Rallye Sport Edition RS ain´t the same as regular ford.. so please if you don´t know what you are saying is better to do a research before posting....

SVT is Shit all around next to RS division.. Ford Europe are millions of years ahead of Ford North America.. you have to live here in europe to know and appreciate what RS and Cosworth does to FORD in here..

[jred321]

This is the most ridiculous thing i´ve ever heard... They are just scared to get the cobras and mostangs, and vettes, camaros etc, to get pounded by a car like the RS, they know this little car will break the sales of any V8 vehicle made and sold in USA, not to mension the MPG difference between them.
lol. just like all of those other high powered fwd cars. they're stealing sales from sports and muscle cars left and right.




oh wait. they're not because the person who is shopping for a muscle or sports car is not interested in a hopped up econo car.

[MazdaSpeeder]

How can you say a Focus worth 30k ? Do you have any knowledge about what RS means, history background etc ? i can tell you have no idea buddy... Ford Europe and their Rallye Sport Edition RS ain´t the same as regular ford.. so please if you don´t know what you are saying is better to do a research before posting....

SVT is Shit all around next to RS division.. Ford Europe are millions of years ahead of Ford North America.. you have to live here in europe to know and appreciate what RS and Cosworth does to FORD in here..

Chill out man. We're just having a discussion...no need to take it personally.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Chill out man. We're just having a discussion...no need to take it personally.

What did i do to chill out ? I´m fine, not angry or mad. just reading and posting, that´s all... i´m just noticing that there is not enough knowledge from people here to say 30K focus, RS and Cosworth are very prestigious divisions of Ford here in the European Union, it´s like Saying a regular mustang is the same as an SVT, or Dodge and Henessy, Honda and Muggen or Spoon. well saying or comparing them is just a crime.

[Kymerik]

What did i do to chill out ? I´m fine, not angry or mad. just reading and posting, that´s all... i´m just noticing that there is not enough knowledge from people here to say 30K focus, RS and Cosworth are very prestigious divisions of Ford here in the European Union, it´s like Saying a regular mustang is the same as an SVT, or Dodge and Henessy, Honda and Muggen or Spoon. well saying or comparing them is just a crime.

problem is, most people in this country are ignorant fools who don't pay attention to the differences in cars. People in the states would see a Focus RS and say one of three things: "too much flash" "oh look its just a modded focus" or "they want how much for a focus"

Ignorance is bliss to the typical dumbass american.

[mikeyb]

How can you say a Focus worth 30k ? Do you have any knowledge about what RS means, history background etc ? i can tell you have no idea buddy... Ford Europe and their Rallye Sport Edition RS ain´t the same as regular ford.. so please if you don´t know what you are saying is better to do a research before posting....

SVT is Shit all around next to RS division.. Ford Europe are millions of years ahead of Ford North America.. you have to live here in europe to know and appreciate what RS and Cosworth does to FORD in here..

Just to let you know SVT and ST were suppose to merge.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080722/FREE/607642641/1065

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Just to let you know SVT and RS are the same division now.

oh yeah,,, what makes you think that ? you must have proof of that, any info you can share, I have lived in USA and in here in the past and i can tell you from Know SVT is Crap and sorry to say no comparison in design, technology or safety next to RS... i´m no trying to be an ass or wanting to fight with anybody, but you have to live in here to really know What RS and Cosworth is and mean ....


Let me ask you a question Mike... Have you been in Europe, England, Spain etc ? have you see in person or heard about RS and Cosworth before ? or just searching the internet and posting the info you find around ? you can post as many links as you find, that doesn´t mean or say anything, you have to live around it and learn it and see how special, rare they are. Owning a RS is a very special thing in here, don´t matter what model, People loves them because of the history, technology and performance. I had and 1990 Ford Escort RS Turbo, and when i bought it 10 years ago and still today owning an RS means a lot to the community, on meetings people uses to check my old ride out then faster and newer cars, same happens to those that owns newer RS models, Escort RS Cosworth, Sierra RS Cosworth etc in order to really appreciate what RS and Cosworth is you have to live with it. as i said you can post as many links you want that is not going to change the Insanely difference from SVT and RS Cosworth buddy..

[jred321]

what kind of car enthusiast doesn't know about RS and cosworth? and how does seeing one in person change anything? i've seen skylines in person when i was in australia does that mean i know all about them, their reliability, and how they drive beyond what i can read?

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

what kind of car enthusiast doesn't know about RS and cosworth? and how does seeing one in person change anything? i've seen skylines in person when i was in australia does that mean i know all about them, their reliability, and how they drive beyond what i can read?

Well your Skyline Example don´t work in here, because a Skyline is already a special model. we are talking about FORD and FORD RS Division, there are shit load of people that have even asked me back in USA where Spain is at and if they have TV over here so.... that says it all. not knowing is almost the same as not seen it.. Reading is one thing and saying who is going to pay 30k for a Focus is another buddy. because this is not a regular focus you get my point !!! no need to get mad here, that´s what threads are for, to discuss no to insult and i ain´t insulting or disrespecting anybody here

[BlackCherry06]

We're getting screwed...again. They're also not bringing the Fiesta 3-door over here, and Ford's already put pictures of our dumbed down versions of the Fiesta 4 / 5 door on FordVehicles.com. I'm PISSED!

Europe (http://www.motorauthority.com/gallery/2009-ford-fiesta/2009-ford-fiesta-motorauthority-002.html)

U.S. (http://www.fordvehicles.com/2011fiesta/)

[jred321]

also remember that being so close to it you are caught up in the hype surrounding the car where someone who is removed from the situation can more objectively evaluate the car. it's the same here with the people who grew up around the muscle cars of the 60s/70s. they have a hard time believing that there is anything wrong with them and many still think that they are the pinnacle of performance.

i would also venture to say that the cosworth/rs cars of old (sierra and escort) were much more different than their normal counterparts than the latest generation.

[jred321]

does cosworth have a hand in the latest gen RS at all? i don't see the cosworth name mentioned anywhere

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

also remember that being so close to it you are caught up in the hype surrounding the car where someone who is removed from the situation can more objectively evaluate the car. it's the same here with the people who grew up around the muscle cars of the 60s/70s. they have a hard time believing that there is anything wrong with them and many still think that they are the pinnacle of performance.

i would also venture to say that the cosworth/rs cars of old (sierra and escort) were much more different than their normal counterparts than the latest generation.


Well you can compare this 2, they are very similar in years.

Ford Contour SVT and Ford Mondeo RS or ST220, no way the SVT version is near the RS or STS220 European version.. i still don´t get it why we get shit in United States when even OPEL that is GM in USA makes millions of time better and better engineered automobiles.. and the story continues..

[happy and angry]

Just to let you know SVT and ST were suppose to merge.
oh yeah,,, what makes you think that ? you must have proof of that, any info you can share,It is almost as if he provided a link for you to read that explains to you why he thinks that. It is almost as if his proof is available to any and all that have the know-how to click on a hyperlink!


I have lived in USA and in here in the past and i can tell you from Know SVT is Crap and sorry to say no comparison in design, technology or safety next to RS... i´m no trying to be an ass or wanting to fight with anybody, but you have to live in here to really know What RS and Cosworth is and mean ....You have to live there to really know, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


Let me ask you a question Mike... Have you been in Europe, England, Spain etc ? have you see in person or heard about RS and Cosworth before ? or just searching the internet and posting the info you find around ? you can post as many links as you find, that doesn´t mean or say anything, you have to live around it and learn it and see how special, rare they are. Owning a RS is a very special thing in here, don´t matter what model, People loves them because of the history, technology and performance. I had and 1990 Ford Escort RS Turbo, and when i bought it 10 years ago and still today owning an RS means a lot to the community, on meetings people uses to check my old ride out then faster and newer cars, same happens to those that owns newer RS models, Escort RS Cosworth, Sierra RS Cosworth etc in order to really appreciate what RS and Cosworth is you have to live with it. as i said you can post as many links you want that is not going to change the Insanely difference from SVT and RS Cosworth buddy..You've really got your panties in a twist over this "YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO OWN AN RS VEHICLE, YOU ARE A MEMBER OF AN EXCLUSIVE CLUB WHEN YOU DO AND CHAMPAGNE WILL FALL FROM THE HEAVENS FOR ALL THAT HAVE REALLY EXPERIENCED THE TOTALLY AWESOMENESS THAT IS COSWORTH!!!!" thing, guy.

Let's back this up a second for you. This all started because someone said that people in North America won't want to buy a $30,000+ Ford Focus. How this very simple idea offends you, I'm not sure, but it's not a very contentious argument to make. In the U.S. especially and to some extent in Canada, when you take a car whose base model costs $15,000 and make an upscale or performance varient of it cost twice as much, a lot of people are not going to be interested. You can see this with the limited sales that STi's and EVO's get, for example. Marketshare will be limited. That's kind of what happens with a car like this.

For Ford to bring this car over to the U.S. they will have to deal with extra shipping costs, extra development costs to meet different emissions and safety regulations, and then hope to recoupe costs with sales. To do this they have to push (relatively) high volume or relatively high cost, and either prospect is questionable. One kills the exclusivity of Focus RS, the other prices it out of most buyers reach. Given the relatively small market for performance small cars in North America, especially given the dip car sales have taken as a result of a global financial meltdown, is not a very safe or prudent business venture to bring this over right now. You don't seem to understand the image a Ford Focus carries over here. Slap an RS badge on one and most people are just going to see "A 30,000+ economy car." STi's and EVO's have immediately recognizable rally pedigree. Cosworth and RS products have never really made it over to the U.S. and so do not have that same sort of recognition to drive sales. It sucks, I know, but that's the way it is.

This has nothing to do with your reverence for Cosworth or the RS/ST European monikers. This has nothing to do with anyone in these threads pissing on your precious Cosworth. I'm not entirely sure what the hell you are going on about here, to be honest, because it's hard enough to make sense of the garble you're throwing out. The reverence with which the average European car enthusiast holds Cosworth/RS/ST vehicles has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the realities of North American markets. So stow your entirely fallacious and irrelevant "If you lived in Europe you'd know how awesome these companies are and you'd know how well they'd sell in the U.S." argument because most of us on here are aware how awesome Cosworth/RS are, we just rightly acknowledge that this has no bearing whatsoever on the average American enthusiast or on the economic realities that make bringing this car here a dicey proposition.

[isbre]

A lot of hype about this car. has been creating headlines in our local newspapers and there was a lot of pre orders in England, even befor the customers knew the color it would come in. All this rightly so, a lot of people complained about the first focus ST saying it was underpowered, and really welcomed the RS when the name re-appeared.

Comparing a normal SVT to the RS is like comparing a standard MZ3 2.0 to the MS3. Really not a great comparison, now is it.

Like most europpean ford this car is designed in Germany, to europpean standards. There are some differences that are not visible, and getting the approval for sale in America will cost a lot of money in paperwork that I think wouldn't be worth it compared to the expected sales

[tunersteve]

How can you say a Focus worth 30k ? Do you have any knowledge about what RS means, history background etc ? i can tell you have no idea buddy... Ford Europe and their Rallye Sport Edition RS ain´t the same as regular ford.. so please if you don´t know what you are saying is better to do a research before posting....

SVT is Shit all around next to RS division.. Ford Europe are millions of years ahead of Ford North America.. you have to live here in europe to know and appreciate what RS and Cosworth does to FORD in here..

Obviously you need to compute a little math before you make claims. A Focus RS is $25K in England, which, if you compute the currency exchange between GBP and USD brings the price to roughly $40K in the US. That's not factoring in the modifications necessary to make it legal to drive in the US, along with transportation costs across the pond.

Most recently, SVT and RS are one common entity. Ford Europe's designs and several of their engineers and vehicles are coming stateside.

The Focus RS is not a rocket, in fact it's times aren't anything to drool over, but the car is fundamentally sound, a solid handling machine and good power/torque curve to propel it around. It's not a rally car at all, but a well built, well balanced car.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

It is almost as if he provided a link for you to read that explains to you why he thinks that. It is almost as if his proof is available to any and all that have the know-how to click on a hyperlink!

You have to live there to really know, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

You've really got your panties in a twist over this "YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO OWN AN RS VEHICLE, YOU ARE A MEMBER OF AN EXCLUSIVE CLUB WHEN YOU DO AND CHAMPAGNE WILL FALL FROM THE HEAVENS FOR ALL THAT HAVE REALLY EXPERIENCED THE TOTALLY AWESOMENESS THAT IS COSWORTH!!!!" thing, guy.

Let's back this up a second for you. This all started because someone said that people in North America won't want to buy a $30,000+ Ford Focus. How this very simple idea offends you, I'm not sure, but it's not a very contentious argument to make. In the U.S. especially and to some extent in Canada, when you take a car whose base model costs $15,000 and make an upscale or performance varient of it cost twice as much, a lot of people are not going to be interested. You can see this with the limited sales that STi's and EVO's get, for example. Marketshare will be limited. That's kind of what happens with a car like this.

For Ford to bring this car over to the U.S. they will have to deal with extra shipping costs, extra development costs to meet different emissions and safety regulations, and then hope to recoupe costs with sales. To do this they have to push (relatively) high volume or relatively high cost, and either prospect is questionable. One kills the exclusivity of Focus RS, the other prices it out of most buyers reach. Given the relatively small market for performance small cars in North America, especially given the dip car sales have taken as a result of a global financial meltdown, is not a very safe or prudent business venture to bring this over right now. You don't seem to understand the image a Ford Focus carries over here. Slap an RS badge on one and most people are just going to see "A 30,000+ economy car." STi's and EVO's have immediately recognizable rally pedigree. Cosworth and RS products have never really made it over to the U.S. and so do not have that same sort of recognition to drive sales. It sucks, I know, but that's the way it is.

This has nothing to do with your reverence for Cosworth or the RS/ST European monikers. This has nothing to do with anyone in these threads pissing on your precious Cosworth. I'm not entirely sure what the hell you are going on about here, to be honest, because it's hard enough to make sense of the garble you're throwing out. The reverence with which the average European car enthusiast holds Cosworth/RS/ST vehicles has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the realities of North American markets. So stow your entirely fallacious and irrelevant "If you lived in Europe you'd know how awesome these companies are and you'd know how well they'd sell in the U.S." argument because most of us on here are aware how awesome Cosworth/RS are, we just rightly acknowledge that this has no bearing whatsoever on the average American enthusiast or on the economic realities that make bringing this car here a dicey proposition.


First of all, i didn´t got offended at all, first because i don´t own any RS or Cosworth company, and i could careless what you and others think you know, i was just giving out my opinion like others have. I was just saying since i lived in USA and in Europe i kindly know the people´s mentalities and the market.. you can´t really say a RS focus looks alike a regular Focus you know, if people see an RS like a regular focus the have a problem, but hey like i said i don´t mind or care what people think about Ford, RS, Cosworth, i had fun living and using the best of the 2 continents that´s all.... Economy got nothing to do in this. 10 years ago we didn´t have any crisis worldwide, and we always got shit in USA when other countries were getting good stuff and better engineered, that´s my point, believe me here in Europe countries do care more about safety and environment more than USA millions of time. so if they don´t bring those cars to USA is basically bases on my opinion because they will loose their 100 years old market were huge ass engines that eats lots of gas is business. bringing a car that perform millions of time better and consume less gas is not a business for the American oil companies.. in USA if is bigger and eats more gas is better, in Europe the smallest, economical and higher performance is better and a must... being that said. that´s all i have to say about this ridiculous comparison we are making. Let´s keep this thread clean..

[SpooledupRacing]

All I can say is this is EXACTLY what I expected... Ford will NEVER bring over a cool car.

[mikeyb]

Well you can compare this 2, they are very similar in years.

Ford Contour SVT and Ford Mondeo RS or ST220, no way the SVT version is near the RS or STS220 European version.. i still don´t get it why we get shit in United States when even OPEL that is GM in USA makes millions of time better and better engineered automobiles.. and the story continues..

You have to remember that Europeans and Americans have different tastes and requirements when it comes to cars. Europeans love small sporty cars and Americans are in love with straight line power and large SUVs.

Opels are sold here in the states as Saturns. Just that they are the dumbed down versions.

[jred321]

Obviously you need to compute a little math before you make claims. A Focus RS is $25K in England, which, if you compute the currency exchange between GBP and USD brings the price to roughly $40K in the US. That's not factoring in the modifications necessary to make it legal to drive in the US, along with transportation costs across the pond.
no cars today that are sold in both countries have prices that closely relate to the exchange rate. i cringe whenever people do that because while technically true if i wanted to hop on a plane today and go pick up a car in england that is what it would cost me in US dollars there are a whole lot of other factors involved in pricing a car that do not make the price conversion that clean.

what is usually better is just to take the pound sign and replace it with a dollar sign and that's what the car will sell for over here. so if it's 25k pounds (don't know how to make that symbol on my keyboard) it will likely sell for $25k in the US. add in a few grand for extra safety development, shipping, etc... needed and the $30k mark sounds like a good estimate to me and is also actually not too far off from a MS3 GT which is a very similar vehicle.

[jred321]

All I can say is this is EXACTLY what I expected... Ford will NEVER bring over a cool car.
i'm still hoping for my turbo falcon to make its way over

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

You have to remember that Europeans and Americans have different tastes and requirements when it comes to cars. Europeans love small sporty cars and Americans are in love with straight line power and large SUVs.

Opels are sold here in the states as Saturns. Just that they are the dumbed down versions.

I totally agree with you, but you can´t hide European Technology are ahead of the American one. even tho they are the Same... is ridiculous to hear Ford cannot bring such a better engineered car to the states, C´mon man we are talking about the most powerful and economical country in the world, that´s not an excuse if you ask me. but if you ask me they don´t bring those type of cars to USA because they will out Perform the current COWS V8´s that eats tons of gas with this ones that are better, will last longer and consume less gas. there is no business in there. Less gas, performs better and is better engineered pretty simple is you ask me. and sorry for my grammar my english is not the best i sure try my best to make sense and sound right..

[tunersteve]

no cars today that are sold in both countries have prices that closely relate to the exchange rate. i cringe whenever people do that because while technically true if i wanted to hop on a plane today and go pick up a car in england that is what it would cost me in US dollars there are a whole lot of other factors involved in pricing a car that do not make the price conversion that clean.

what is usually better is just to take the pound sign and replace it with a dollar sign and that's what the car will sell for over here. so if it's 25k pounds (don't know how to make that symbol on my keyboard) it will likely sell for $25k in the US. add in a few grand for extra safety development, shipping, etc... needed and the $30k mark sounds like a good estimate to me and is also actually not too far off from a MS3 GT which is a very similar vehicle.

It's a crude estimate but it serves its purpose to prove a point. You simply can't take a EDM car and drop it on US soil and sell it.

With the next Focus platform, the MAJORITY of the parts will be shared between EDM/USDM models, but there will be the obvious differences in safety,powertrain options, etc. Also, you've got the suppliers making more components, which should help keep costs down between them. Give it 2-3 years and we'll see a Focus RS(SVT?) over here.

[tunersteve]

And while we're on the topic of V8's, the current 4.6/5.4/6.8 Triton motors are going away. Now, the 5.0 and 6.2 motors are more efficient and more powerful will replace those, with the ability to go DI/Ecoboost in the near future.

Trust me, Ford's got their shit straight and their product mix is going to be stellar in the next few years.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

And while we're on the topic of V8's, the current 4.6/5.4/6.8 Triton motors are going away. Now, the 5.0 and 6.2 motors are more efficient and more powerful will replace those, with the ability to go DI/Ecoboost in the near future.

Trust me, Ford's got their shit straight and their product mix is going to be stellar in the next few years.


Sure. they have their shit straight...... oh yeah...

[happy and angry]

First of all, i didn´t got offended at allYou sound terribly offended with everything you write, from "Do you even live here man?" to "you just don't understand what it's like".
first because i don´t own any RS or Cosworth company, and i could careless what you and others think you knowOh, what we think we know. Yup, that doesn't sound aggressive/dismissive/offended at all.
i was just giving out my opinion like others have. I was just saying since i lived in USA and in Europe i kindly know the people´s mentalities and the market..This may come as a shock to you but having lived in a country does not actually convey any super secret knowledge about how the markets work, or even any general understanding of the mentalities of the population. Residency is not a magic potion that makes you know what the hell you are talking about.
you can´t really say a RS focus looks alike a regular Focus you knowI'm not saying it looks like a regular Focus. I have never made that claim. No one here has made that claim. What has been said, however, is that most of the car buying public will perceive the RS Focus as being... a really expensive Focus. For the last 8 or 9 years the Focus has just been a little econo-box, a domestic competitor to the Civic and the Corolla. Not a performance car, or even a performance platform. Most people over here have no idea what SVT is or even that we had an anemic little SVT Focus for sale for a while, let alone two performance brands that have never been sold on this side of the ocean.
if people see an RS like a regular focus the have a problemIf people aren't enthusiasts and don't know what the RS brand means, they have the problem? Not the arrogant dink sneering at their lack of car knowledge from the safety of a message board?
Economy got nothing to do in this.Economy has everything to do with why the Focus RS won't make it to North America any time soon.
10 years ago we didn´t have any crisis worldwide, and we always got shit in USA when other countries were getting good stuff and better engineeredYes, this has been true for a very long time and isn't a very insightful point to make. It is also a combination of a lot of factors, but the main factor driving this has been what the American public is willing to buy. In large portions of the U.S. there is a certain xenophobia that drives vehicle sales, the road systems in the two countries are very different, driver attitudes are very different, and what people prioritize in a vehicle in the U.S. vs in Europe is very different. Rightly or wrongly, the markets are different between the two continents. They are slowly shifting to be more closely aligned, but cars like the Focus RS or the Renault Megane R26R or the Fiat 500 Abarth or even really any other performance oriented small car is going to be a very, very niche market proposition.
so if they don´t bring those cars to USA is basically bases on my opinion because they will loose their 100 years old market were huge ass engines that eats lots of gas is business. bringing a car that perform millions of time better and consume less gas is not a business for the American oil companies..Oh, you think it's a conspiracy thing. Hah! One of those. Let's put it this way. Sales of cars like the Fit have gone through the roof over the last few years, and companies like Ford are trying to get a piece of that pie with things like the Fiesta and the Ka making it to these shores in the next two years. Truly, those American Oil companies and the secret shadow government megacorporations that really control these lands are doing a good job of suppressing the small car. The long-standing resistance to smaller vehicles has everything to do with ExxonMobile and nothing to do with the entirely different demographics driving vehicle sales between the North America and Europe, and also nothing to do with the vast differences in gas prices driving motorists to prioritize completely different sets or wants and needs when purchasing vehicles.

[tunersteve]

Sure. they have their shit straight...... oh yeah...

Let me see here...old archaic motors with piss-poor mileage being scrapped for new motors built from the ground up, capable of being retrofitted with fuel efficient technologies as needed? Sounds like someone was thinking long-term when they designed that.

Here's a great example of some numbers for reference:

4.6 3V OHC motor: 315hp/325tq
5.0 4V DOHC 'Coyote' motor: 400hp/385+tq

Oh, and it weighs less than the 5.4 with the iron block used in the F-150, so weight reduction and increased payload to boot.

[jred321]

i'd take a mustang over a 300hp fwd car (shrug). they'll get similar gas mileage (i got around 20mpg in my evo which was putting out similar power; number of cylinders matters little) and the mustang will have more usable power since asking the front wheels for that much grip is absurd. the mustang will also have the ability to go well above that power mark and still maintain usable power where any 300hp fwd car is over the usable power mark right out of the box.

many americans share a similar opinion (though different reasons i'm sure). the products that they want are not always the most practical and efficient. ford is building what people want to buy finally. doesn't matter if it's the best solution their job is to sell cars not to engineer the greatest car ever. to sell cars you build to what your customers want and that is what ford is doing. GM is starting to. chrysler, well, they built shit nobody wants for a long time and have no plans for organic cars of their own so good luck to them

[tunersteve]

Ford got stupid 10 years ago when Nasser ran the show. Ford and Mullaly turned the ship around and are making more sensible decisions on the future of the company.

The last gen SVT Focus was a decent handling machine, and very capable. I would expect when the new one comes out in 2012 it would be no less capable, but have the power to back up the handling.

[Silver Ecstasy]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.

[Silver Ecstasy]

The last gen SVT Focus was a decent handling machine, and very capable.

Very capable but sadly no power! I remember seeing the Saleen-tuned Focus SVT's and they were asking damn near $30k for a car that had minor suspension tweaks and a bottle of NOS in the trunk!! I would have expected a supercharger for that price!

http://www.billwoodsford.com/saleen/saleencars/focuss121.php

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

i'd take a mustang over a 300hp fwd car (shrug). they'll get similar gas mileage (i got around 20mpg in my evo which was putting out similar power; number of cylinders matters little) and the mustang will have more usable power since asking the front wheels for that much grip is absurd. the mustang will also have the ability to go well above that power mark and still maintain usable power where any 300hp fwd car is over the usable power mark right out of the box.

many americans share a similar opinion (though different reasons i'm sure). the products that they want are not always the most practical and efficient. ford is building what people want to buy finally. doesn't matter if it's the best solution their job is to sell cars not to engineer the greatest car ever. to sell cars you build to what your customers want and that is what ford is doing. GM is starting to. chrysler, well, they built shit nobody wants for a long time and have no plans for organic cars of their own so good luck to them


Im impress, Mustangs can´t handle shit, take them to a track and any reasonable FWD car will perform better.. Have you been in a descent 300hp fwd car ? how can you say fwd have horrible traction ? Give me a break, I´ve seen FWD cars raped rwd ones, C´mon you really have to go to Youtube and type TOUGUE Racing in Japan and you´ll see what´s a good comparison and how real RWD,FWD, and AWD is all about.. they have videos of FWD vs RWD, and vise versa .. FWD cars performs much better than what you think..

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.


Funny, Evo´s Rallye Proven right ? What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT? Give me a break

[jred321]

have you driven a new mustang? i'm from america and we know how awesome mustangs are over here. being in europe you don't understand the mustang.


seriously though the new mustang handles decently and is more than adequate for a daily driver. it's not a challenger

i say that powerful fwd cars have poor traction because they do. asking the front wheels to brake, turn, and handle a lot of power when accelerating is too much. esp since most fwd cars can only fit relatively narrow tires due to their suspension designs. a fwd car can be made plenty fast but it's not fast because of the power, it's fast because of the handling and the light weight. for me 250whp is the point at which the power in a fwd car becomes worthless. 300hp and up you'll need to run slicks to get any sort of reasonable traction so why bother unless it's a dedicated straight line car. i would much rather have a 200hp fwd car that is light and with phenomenal handling over a 300hp fwd car that is a little more portly and it doesn't have the same attention paid to its handling

[tunersteve]

I think regardless of what wheels are driving the car (RWD or FWD), it's still a pretty impressive accomplishment for Ford to have that Focus take corners and tracks like it does.

Agreed. It says a lot about the engineering that went into the car for them to help minimize understeer to the extent they've done with the RS.

But someone would always rather have something different. Even if Ford made it AWD, someone would say "Well, i'd still rather have an EVO, rally proven heritage" or "Well, it's still no ____" fill in the blanks. So, I applaud them for keeping it in an acceptable price range, but i'm disappointed we won't be able to sing it's praises here.

That goes back to simple 'magazine racing'. There will always be the " I'd prefer A over B" talk. Do the research and see what makes the car special, then drive it! Talking about it on paper and comparing numbers which are susceptible to error means very little in the real world.


Very capable but sadly no power! I remember seeing the Saleen-tuned Focus SVT's and they were asking damn near $30k for a car that had minor suspension tweaks and a bottle of NOS in the trunk!! I would have expected a supercharger for that price!

http://www.billwoodsford.com/saleen/saleencars/focuss121.php

The SVT got shortchanged in terms of power. Slap a S/C on it and you were all set for a great weekend racer, and cheap to maintain as well.


Im impress, Mustangs can´t handle shit, take them to a track and any reasonable FWD car will perform better.. Have you been in a descent 300hp fwd car ? how can you say fwd have horrible traction ? Give me a break, I´ve seen FWD cars raped rwd ones, C´mon you really have to go to Youtube and type TOUGUE Racing in Japan and you´ll see what´s a good comparison and how real RWD,FWD, and AWD is all about.. they have videos of FWD vs RWD, and vise versa .. FWD cars performs much better than what you think..

This is a simple example of ignorance. Have you driven one? If not, don't go on and on about a FWD car beating it. Open your mind up and see the big picture.

Go check out Speed world challenge (Koni Challenge). Live axle equipped Mustangs hand IRS equipped BMWs, Acuras, and Mazdas their ass since the S197 chassis was introduced.


Funny, Evo´s Rallye Proven right ? What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT? Give me a break

You need to open your eyes and stop taking the discussion as personal attacks.

[jred321]

What car did Collin McRae uses to drive a Yugo or probably a Mustang GT?
a subaru? that's what mcrae is most closely associated with in my mind at least

tommi makinen is evo to me.

[happy and angry]

It sounds almost like someone needs a lesson in potential front end grip between FWD and RWD platforms. Specifically, the differences under acceleration, under breaking, and under turning. Someone should also learn about the circle of grip (http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.g.bower/PoM/pom/node23.html) and consider how it may apply to various platforms under various conditions.

It also sounds like someone should read about the 2009 or 2010 Mustang w/ trackpack and hear about the rave reviews it has been getting in the handling department.

Mostly it sounds like someone needs to learn when to shut up.

[Kymerik]

*countdown to thread lock*

This has gone so ridiculously off topic it's sick. (i know, i do it alot myself)

I am not surprised we lost out on the RS this time around, But i wouldn't be surprised if the next generation is made into a global platform that will be acceptable to both the European and American standards.

[Wagonbacker9]

yeah, guys, lets get some water on the flamewar... do we need a reminder of the topic?


my take is this: the mugen SI didn't do well, and the civic is a popular car with that crowd... theres just not a market for a car in that class (I do NOT mean to directly compare the 2 cars, just talking sport compacts here) here in the US. Honestly, I'm as disappointed as anyone, but I think its the right move.

[tunersteve]

I realize it's off topic, and Mikey is in here too. No need to worry...

[conewagon]

It sounds almost like someone needs a lesson in potential front end grip between FWD and RWD platforms. Specifically, the differences under acceleration, under breaking, and under turning. Someone should also learn about the circle of grip (http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.g.bower/PoM/pom/node23.html) and consider how it may apply to various platforms under various conditions.

It also sounds like someone should read about the 2009 or 2010 Mustang w/ trackpack and hear about the rave reviews it has been getting in the handling department.

Mostly it sounds like someone needs to learn when to shut up.

I agree with most of this, but there is no difference between front and rear wheel drive under braking.

[TheMAN]

this thread is one big headache, so all I'm going to say is this

Had the americans pulled their heads out of their asses a long time ago and harmonized vehicle standards with the rest of the world (set mainly by Europeans), the Focus RS would probably be selling *officially* or grey imported

let me elaborate:
the big 3 always had great downward pressure on NHTSA to maintain standards very different from the rest of the world either because of their genuine perception that american (SAE) standards were better or because of xenophobia ("not invented here syndrome")... furthermore, the status quo effectively prevents the economic feasibility of private importation... the idea behind this is so that americans will be forced to buy only what (garbage) is available here... this was exacerbated in the late 80s when a thriving grey market caused mercedes-benz (of all companies) to lobby congress to legislate the requirement of custom bonds and vehicle crash worthiness tests and all the other red tape (before then, all someone had to do was bring a car here and install "DOT" equipment on a car to make it legal)

globalization trends aside, time has proven again and again that a freer automotive market produced a stronger one... the local market (not implying domestic manufacturers themselves, but official distributors also) either had to adapt or go away... survival of the fittest
I don't have data to back this up, but there are several places in the world where grey imports have thriving markets:
-new zealand... a long time ago, they had high tariffs on vehicle imports, to "protect" their domestic auto industry (nothing more than "transplants" of foreign automakers there) but when they eased the tariffs, people bought grey imports left and right and the much more expensive locally produced cars sat in the lots... this forced the official distributors to lower the prices on their cars until it was no longer profitable to build cars there... today all cars there are imports and new zealand did away with vehicle import tariffs not too long ago
-australia... you could only import a vehicle not officially sold there... there were some vehicles that were so highly imported in the grey market, it prompted the official importers to start selling official ones
-hong kong/macau... used to, you'd see grey imports all over the streets because they were cheaper and had better equipment/features/colors... the official importers had to get smart and so now they sell official imports with competitive prices and are similarly equipped... it is rarer to find grey imports now than before
-UK... the 2nd country in the world that is grey import friendly... although grey imports there are expensive and are relatively rare, people still buy them anyway because some top end models available elsewhere aren't available there or some cars simply don't exist there... enough of whatever was imported that the official distributors stopped fighting the owners and actually try to help them with parts and service instead
as you can see, it didn't really kill any economies or cause loss of market share, all that happened with the domestic industry was adapt and shift its focus... so while new zealand's car factories closed down, the cars produced there were intended only for the local market and the auto market was much more limited and held back prior to being opened up for grey imports... all the relaxations did was allow the after sales industry to grow and that's where a lot of the money is in car business

SO, had the americans "gave up" and harmonized the standards as late as a decade ago, it is hypothetically possible that the big 3 wouldn't be in as much trouble as they are now... why do I think that? as demonstrated above, grey imports may have eventually forced them to consider and sell official versions here at a cheaper price
also another MAJOR consequence of this I haven't mentioned are the reduced production costs of ALL vehicles (sold here or not)... this meant that now defunct in the US marks such as renault, fiat, and opel could easily reenter the market.. all they had to do was build the car and ship it here to sell... no longer do they have to produce AND certify cars with 2 or 3 different kinds of headlights, 2 different kinds of tail lights, 2 different kinds of bumpers, 2 different kinds of emissions equipment... the overhead is greatly reduced because not only do they no longer have to produce market specific bullshit, they don't have to inventory extra replacement parts or have separate accounting for this kind of shit... administrative and logistic costs, GREATLY REDUCED
and IF these nonexistent brands/cars were (so fearedly) reintroduced, the extra competition will force the complacent big 3 to rethink their strategies, reorganize their businesses, and introduce competitive products
the fact that the north american auto market is not as competitive as the rest of the world due to red tape, hurts the industry as a whole... a handicap for a long time already... self protectionist schemes no matter what it is, hurts business, plain and simple... the big 3 failed to see that by knocking down the barriers, it would help them in the long term... but unfortunately, their mentality has always been for the past 100 years short term thinking.... their status today is the result of that mentality


so bottom line is this... in today's globalized economy we better harmonize or adopt international standards quickly (that includes the *gasp* metric system) or american companies will always have difficulty doing international business and have to burden great costs doing so
-it is MUCH cheaper working on a single set of standards, automobile or not... -AMERICAN cars sold here would no longer need to be recertified and reequipped for any foreign market
-it increases local competition and everyone benefits from that
-it forces/allows the automakers more to design and sell "world cars" more so than the status quo of today as it is more cost effective

hopefully, the new NHTSA administrator will be more liberal (through the new white house) and will allow this to happen, but I'm not holding my breath as most americans have always have the idea that stuff not invented here isn't good

the great depression has shown that implementing self protectionist rules did nothing but harm everyone more... promoting better global competition (I did not mention "free trade" or want to talk about that) is one of the ways to help the global economy recover faster

[BlackCherry06]

Pardon my legislative ignorance, but are we the only country that has a standard for pedestrian safety on the front of vehicles sold here? (i.e. the hood has to be x-distance above the top of the engine). I think that's a retarded standard that they've forced on automakers and it's really caused some fucked up designs in the last few years. I remember in the 80's and early 90's how much I admired Honda's designs because the noses were so low to the ground...even on the Accord. Look how high they are now.....ruined.

This is what probably causes so many problems making EU cars acceptable for sale here and why it's so expensive to do so. They have to design a car with a mile-high hood to make sure it's sellable here before they can sell it globally.

[TheMAN]

actually, ECE regulations also have pedestrian safety specs in place also, so I do not think this is the primary cause of it

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version... vehicle safety philosophies are very different on both sides of the pond... it is irrational to say one is better than the other one... however, it is responsible to say that neither are less safe than the other... european and japanese bumper laws for example do not require extensive rebars compared to north american ones, having a rebar does NOT make the car more crash worthy (or "safer") in a 30mph crash... all the rebar does is keep the bumper from deforming excessively in a 5mph parking lot kiss... that is a common misconception there! non-US headlights (european standard, adopted all over the world) out perform "DOT" ones in poor weather and does not have as much glare or "dazzle" to on coming drivers... they however, do not light up overhead road signs as well due to this, but studies have shown that even with the reduced upward lighting, it has never posed any safety threat (australia, japan, and the UK used to use "reversed" SAE headlights which were much like american headlights and they switched over to ECE ones many years ago, that is how such a study was able to be done)

like I said... neither set of standards are better than the other, they both have their pros and cons... BUT, considering that everyone else in the world uses ECE standards (and canada now even allows ECE lighting equipment), it's more logical for ONE country (that's the US... canada always follows the US on car related shit) to adopt or harmonize to those standards than to force everyone to use our standards

the old saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em!

[tunersteve]

actually, ECE regulations also have pedestrian safety specs in place also, so I do not think this is the primary cause of it

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version... vehicle safety philosophies are very different on both sides of the pond... it is irrational to say one is better than the other one... however, it is responsible to say that neither are less safe than the other... european and japanese bumper laws for example do not require extensive rebars compared to north american ones, having a rebar does NOT make the car more crash worthy (or "safer") in a 30mph crash... all the rebar does is keep the bumper from deforming excessively in a 5mph parking lot kiss... that is a common misconception there! non-US headlights (european standard, adopted all over the world) out perform "DOT" ones in poor weather and does not have as much glare or "dazzle" to on coming drivers... they however, do not light up overhead road signs as well due to this, but studies have shown that even with the reduced upward lighting, it has never posed any safety threat (australia, japan, and the UK used to use "reversed" SAE headlights which were much like american headlights and they switched over to ECE ones many years ago, that is how such a study was able to be done)

like I said... neither set of standards are better than the other, they both have their pros and cons... BUT, considering that everyone else in the world uses ECE standards (and canada now even allows ECE lighting equipment), it's more logical for ONE country (that's the US... canada always follows the US on car related shit) to adopt or harmonize to those standards than to force everyone to use our standards

the old saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em!

Well said in both posts.

I'm all for one global standard, since in the end, it benefits the consumer and the business alike.

[happy and angry]

I agree with most of this, but there is no difference between front and rear wheel drive under braking.It's not a significant one, but it's there, and it's mostly based around weight balance. The engine configurations, transmission orientations/designs and the presence/absence of a rear differential makes significant weight balance differences between the two platforms.

The differences are not so large under straight line braking, but when we start looking at trail braking characteristics during various cornering situations, each platform has a different "tendency" under braking. This tendency can be greater or lesser depending on overall chasis performance, suspension setup, etc etc etc, but because of the (general) weight balance differences between platforms you can see different tendencies under braking.

[happy and angry]

also, for all the uninformed out there (which is 99.9% of the board), do not ever think for one moment that an european version of a car also sold here is "not safe" compared to the US version...I'm not sure why you are getting the idea that identifying a legislated difference in specific standards means thinking one vehicle (or set of standards) is more or less safe than another.

I also take issue, to some extent, with the idea that the Big 3 have avoided globalization because it benefits them, rather than because of the vastly different market pressures between North America and Europe. Go back 10 years when gas prices were lower and everyone was wanting a 12 mpg SUV and the idea of bringing a small car over the pond would seem absolutely crazy, but now that the U.S. is starting to feel some of the same energy pressures Europe has and priorities are shifting, markets are shifting as a result. It's very easy to look back and using hindsight judge the choices made by the big 3 over the last 20 years, but you have to remember that as a result of avoiding globalizing their offerings, they were able to make record profits in Europe with their good small cars and record profits in the U.S. with their bigger vehicles. They did a pisspoor job of predicting a shift in priorities, followed by a pisspoor job of reacting to various market changes (except for Ford), but 10 years ago talking about globalizing product offerings would have been downright fiscally irresponsible for those companies to do.

[conewagon]

ok, but so would 2 different fwd cars. You are talking about balance with has nothing to do with which wheels are driving the car. That is like saying that cars with dog food in them handle differently than cars without dogfood.

[TheMAN]

I'm not sure why you are getting the idea that identifying a legislated difference in specific standards means thinking one vehicle (or set of standards) is more or less safe than another.

I also take issue, to some extent, with the idea that the Big 3 have avoided globalization because it benefits them, rather than because of the vastly different market pressures between North America and Europe. Go back 10 years when gas prices were lower and everyone was wanting a 12 mpg SUV and the idea of bringing a small car over the pond would seem absolutely crazy, but now that the U.S. is starting to feel some of the same energy pressures Europe has and priorities are shifting, markets are shifting as a result. It's very easy to look back and using hindsight judge the choices made by the big 3 over the last 20 years, but you have to remember that as a result of avoiding globalizing their offerings, they were able to make record profits in Europe with their good small cars and record profits in the U.S. with their bigger vehicles. They did a pisspoor job of predicting a shift in priorities, followed by a pisspoor job of reacting to various market changes (except for Ford), but 10 years ago talking about globalizing product offerings would have been downright fiscally irresponsible for those companies to do.
there's a common misconception among people that non-US cars aren't as safe as US cars because cars destined to be sold here have to go through lengthy certifications and modifications for them to be road legal (costs up to $2 million per car)... major modifications such as bumpers make people think that when someone else imported a JDM bumper, their car is instantly unsafe when it is installed... I've seen the "don't do it" posts everywhere on the internet, have you?

I don't make shit up, simple as that

preventing vehicle importation/exportation through regulations effectively limited the big 3's options on what and where it could sell without incurring huge costs, that's a simple fact... never mind that in the past 15 years there was the SUV craze... there were people overseas that wanted them too... you CAN buy a ford explorer in europe... you CAN buy a ford mustang in japan... they're just expensive not simply on the basis of import tariffs, but additional vehicle costs

you argue that different markets demanded different types of vehicles, so what about the japanese? WHY were they able to build "world cars" that could be sold anywhere in the world with few modifications? the bottom line is, the big 3 didn't care to do any of this shit (ford tried half heartedly with that a few times in the past 30 years) and their overhead costs were enormous because of that... you can also say that their so-called "world cars" didn't sell well in one market because it wasn't meant for it... but that's no excuse... it's just more the reason to put more effort into designing a better car that can sell everywhere... WHY has the toyota corolla and honda civic been so successful? because those 2 companies put effort into making a car that sold equally well here as in asia... hell, even the germans have been able to build and sell their cars all over the world with great success... it all comes down to competition... detroit limited their competition on purpose in hopes that they can keep selling their buckets of shits without putting effort (investing money) into building better cars... by the time the 2000s hit, it was already too late when they realized they needed to build and sell good shit (modern domestic vehicles aren't that bad in quality, they are still ugly IMO and their high production costs caused their products to be uncompetitive)

you also argue that "globalizing" their product line would've been fiscally irresponsible to do... that's just another short term thinking... had they globalized/better their product line in the early 80s to catch up to the japanese and remain competitive, we wouldn't be talking about their demise today... long term goals sometimes requires short term sacrifices to be made!

[happy and angry]

I suppose you could argue that, but I'd argue that since FWD cars tend to be close to the 60/40 weight split where AWD and RWD cars tend to be much closer to neutral balance, some of the weight based handling differences can be considered on a platform vs platform basis rather than a case by case basis.

Again, I am talking general characteristics of the platform itself. One of the defining characteristics of the FWD platform is a loss of grip to the drive wheels under acceleration due to weight transfer. One of the defining characteristics of the AWD platform is a tendency to push through corners and feel less nimble due to extra weight from the drivetrain. Weight distribution is one of the biggest differences between the platforms, and the handling differences in all conditions are not just dictated by where the drivewheels are. If weight balance as a result of drivetrain layout is fair game in other situations, why not under braking?

[jred321]

there's a common misconception among people that non-US cars aren't as safe as US cars because cars destined to be sold here have to go through lengthy certifications and modifications for them to be road legal (costs up to $2 million per car)... major modifications such as bumpers make people think that when someone else imported a JDM bumper, their car is instantly unsafe when it is installed... I've seen the "don't do it" posts everywhere on the internet, have you?

are crash regulations designed at all to account for other vehicle's characteristics in a crash? for example if i'm designing a new bumper to handle front end collissions i expect that the other person's bumper will give X amount and i use that to design my bumper. does that happen at all? if so i could see how it would be less safe to have a bumper from another country

[TheMAN]

bumpers don't do much in real collisions dude... all they're for are low speed damage protections... you know what crumble zones are and do right?

also, you fail to see that crash testing methods although different between NHTSA and ECE, they use basically the same testing equipment... which means what happens in either test method are quite similar

they DON'T crash test against another vehicle, and they DON'T have vehicle size differentials in mind when designing/stipulating crash worthiness... what they DO care about is energy absorption, what happens to the occupants and to ensure the cabin does not get crushed

[conewagon]

Ok, lets just say we are both right ;-)


I suppose you could argue that, but I'd argue that since FWD cars tend to be close to the 60/40 weight split where AWD and RWD cars tend to be much closer to neutral balance, some of the weight based handling differences can be considered on a platform vs platform basis rather than a case by case basis.

Again, I am talking general characteristics of the platform itself. One of the defining characteristics of the FWD platform is a loss of grip to the drive wheels under acceleration due to weight transfer. One of the defining characteristics of the AWD platform is a tendency to push through corners and feel less nimble due to extra weight from the drivetrain. Weight distribution is one of the biggest differences between the platforms, and the handling differences in all conditions are not just dictated by where the drivewheels are. If weight balance as a result of drivetrain layout is fair game in other situations, why not under braking?

[conewagon]

I think it more a concern of usable grip, not balance. If you are using 100% of a tire to turn then you cannot also use it to accelerate. You will never use 100% of a rear tire turning alone (properly) without also using 100%of the front tires. So if you are turning you are always using the fronts as hard or harder than the backs leaving less tire to use for acceleration, in the case of FWD.

[happy and angry]

there's a common misconception among people that non-US cars aren't as safe as US cars because cars destined to be sold here have to go through lengthy certifications and modifications for them to be road legal (costs up to $2 million per car)... major modifications such as bumpers make people think that when someone else imported a JDM bumper, their car is instantly unsafe when it is installed... I've seen the "don't do it" posts everywhere on the internet, have you?Specifically, within the context of this conversation, I have not seen anyone state or imply that a european car is less safe, simply that different safety standards require different production standards, and this costs money.

When I make the point earlier in the thread that different regulations have different vehicle requirements and meeting these different requirements costs money, and you eventually respond to that idea with "Don't think that the requirements are 'less safe'" I have no idea why you are bringing up a rebuttal to a point that I did not make.

Perhaps you should argue what is said in this forum, and not ones that have been made on other forums by other people.


I don't make shit up, simple as thatI, uh, don't believe I said that you did.


preventing vehicle importation/exportation through regulations effectively limited the big 3's options on what and where it could sell without incurring huge costsIn what sense? Be specific here. I can think of at least one case where importation regulation in the 90's prevented Japanese automakers from trying to get in on the U.S. SUV craze for many years, allowing the Big 3 to corner the largest growing market segment (at the time) in the world's biggest car market. In that case, the regulation effectively allowed the Big 3 to make billions and force the Japanese automakers to incure huge tariffs for shipping fully built vehicles classified as light trucks into the U.S. This made it virtually impossible for them to sell their vehicles in the U.S. (at least at first) at competitive pricing, effectively keeping them out of the SUV market for a very long time.
(at that's a simple fact... never mind that in the past 15 years there was the SUV craze... there were people overseas that wanted them too...Not to the same extent as in the U.S. Go look at automotive market share broken down by vehicle type in each major market. SUV demand is/was much higher in the U.S. than anywhere else.


you argue that different markets demanded different types of vehicles, so what about the japanese?What about them? They were entirely unable to make inroads in the U.S. until the first oil crises, lost ground during the 90's when oil prices were low again, and are once again benefiting from severe fluctuations in oil prices. I'd say that this is a fairly clear indication that when cost is a limited factor in vehicle upkeep (IE: fuel costs) Americans prefer American cars.
WHY were they able to build "world cars" that could be sold anywhere in the world with few modifications?Because they globalized. I never said globalization was bad, simply that localization in their product offerings was a fantastic strategy for the U.S. companies for a very long time.
the bottom line is, the big 3 didn't care to do any of this shit (ford tried half heartedly with that a few times in the past 30 years)They didn't care to do any of this shit because they didn't have to. They built cars made for Europe in Europe and made a lot of money off of it. They built cars and trucks and SUVS made for North America in North America and made a lot of money off of it.
and their overhead costs were enormous because of that...Their overhead costs have only become enormous recently.
you can also say that their so-called "world cars" didn't sell well in one market because it wasn't meant for it...Not because it's not meant for it, but because no one wanted it. Selling a car like the Ford Ka in the U.S. 10 or 15 years ago would have been suicidal.
but that's no excuse...I think it's a very good excuse. They were making money hand over fist all of 10 years ago. It doesn't make sense to sell something in a market where it won't sell. Ford wanted to sell the Euro Focus here all of one vehicle generation ago, but decided that Americans are too fat to fit in it comfortably, so they built one two inches wider specifically for the different needs of the market, for example. Smart move? I have no idea. But there was at least a rational behind it.
it's just more the reason to put more effort into designing a better car that can sell everywhere... WHY has the toyota corolla and honda civic been so successful?You're looking at this in a kind of strange way. Look back real far and you'll notice that in the early 80's the Big 3 got beaten to the small car market segment punch by Japanese companies, which allowed them to get a foothold in what is ultimately a xenophobic market. In the 90's, the small car segment was shrinking. Now it's growing again. Those two cars are in part successful now because of a long standing reputation they have built upon and in part because the Big 3 have never really tried to move into the segment with any sort or urgency, always making enough from trucks or minivans or SUVs. They've never really had much to offer in these segments, at least in the U.S. The Focus competes very well with these cars elsewhere in the world, however. The Honda Civic is also a singularly bad example to use because it is yet another car where Europe gets a different version than the Americas.

http://www.motiontrends.com/2005/m08eng/honda/civiceu.shtml

Most companies do stuff like this. The U.S. doesn't really like hatchbacks so they don't bring over a lot of hatchback vehicles here where as in Europe they love them. Small cars don't sell well so we don't get things like the Mazda2, and it took forever for Smart to try selling the fortwo.


because those 2 companies put effort into making a car that sold equally well here as in asia...I don't think you really understand how many differences there are between vehicles on a market to market basis.
hell, even the germans have been able to build and sell their cars all over the world with great success... it all comes down to competition... detroit limited their competition on purpose in hopes that they can keep selling their buckets of shitsIf Detroit limited its competition on purpose in hopes that they can keep selling their buckets of shit, they would not also have been developing cars either under their own brands or under other badges they owned for various other markets. And yet, the cars they have built that are good that you seem to like were still being developed.

There are a lot of factors that dictate what products are feasible in any given market that you are ignoring. There are the tastes and priorities of American drivers to consider (things like "buy American" and "I want a bigger car because I feel safer in it" and "I want something I can tow a boat with to my cottage" and "I want something big enough for me, like so many other overweight Americans", and on and on it goes), the differences between American roads and European roads (3 lane highways that go everywhere as opposed to needing to use a B-road to get to where you are going), different fuel price pressures (2 bucks a gallon versus 8 pounds a gallon), on and on and on the list goes. Different insurance systems and different rates play into it. Gas guzzler taxes aren't as oppressive in the U.S. You do not pay taxes on vehicles based on their carbon footprint in the U.S. The availability of credit plays into it. Xenophobia plays into it. What everyone's parents drove plays into it. Not wanting your neighbours to think of you as unpatriotic plays into it.

It's not some massive stupid conspiracy that globalization of the automotive segments hasn't quite reached American shores. It's also not something unique to the Big 3, as I just showed you with the European Civic.

[mikeyb]

this thread is a power keg.

[Kymerik]

this thread is a power keg.

it was 3 pages ago and is only getting worse lol

[LinuxRacr]

This thread is so far off topic now, but has good discussion. I'm sorry to say this will need to be closed.