Will Mazda survive?

[x10dude]

Just read an article that discussed the survival of Mazda. What does everyone here think?

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090521/AUTO01/905210359/1148/AUTO01/Key+to+survival+for+Mazda+may+be+the+city+it+calls +home

[mazdadude]

That was an interesting article, thank you for posting it.

I think that Mazda's smaller size and flexibility enable it to be more nimble, and quicker to respond as market demands change.

They used the "zoom-zoom" campaign very intelligently, and effectively to bring emotion of motion, and better brand recognition to the Mazda nameplate. In addition, they released a bunch of stirring and popular concept cars which hinted at Mazda's future design direction. Not to mention the major improvements in fit/finish and reliability.

One area I feel they should expand on, is the "Web Tune" concept that they have had in Japan for around 7 years now. I would really like to see them bring this feature to North America. This is a terrific web interface that allows customers to build their own Mazda vehicle online, and have it built to order.

Mazda will never be as big as Honda, or Toyota, or even Nissan for that matter, nor do they want to be (and nothing could make me happier). Niche vehicles will continue to be Mazda's forte, but they will still need help from the main bread and butter cars like the Mazda2, Mazda3, and Mazda6.

[Rockin03mp5]

from what i have read, mazda does not have 120 days of inventory on dealer lots. quite a few are bought while still on the boat over here. i also hear their plants make a wide variety of vehicles, and can change over quickly.

[DKaz]

I truly believe Mazda will head out of this recession stronger than ever much like Subaru because of their resistance to become mainstream. Toyota is suffering big time right now mainly because of the huge drop in sales on their huge SUVs and Tundra truck.

I think the main concern is that they do not have the huge cash reserves that the other companies have especially since Ford sold their stakes but from what I heard from the dealers, their sales have stayed strong from last year and they're standing on their heads trying to keep up, even without the incentives. As long as they continue to sell, they'll be fine. They have less overhead than the bigger companies and as others have said, they are better able to respond to any shifts in demand almost right away.

[x10dude]

The positives to Mazda is that it is small and focused (they've kept the same slogan for over a decade) and almost all of their vehicles are decent. They also have been through hard times before so they know a bit or two about survival.

But the problem is that they lost the backing of Ford so financing debt might be a big problem. (they also lost the development and research dollars that Ford provided before). Subaru has the backing of Toyota and Mitsubishi has the backing of the whole Mitsubishi company (which is not just a car company). Mazda right now is by itself.

Besides the Mazda5, sales have plummeted across the board. The Mazda2 is been selling well but it's not available in the US.
The bottom line is that sales definitely have to increase across the board.

[Mazda5wannabe]

I would like to think Mazda, having survived being nuked, could weather the financial problems of today. Of course, speculators have taken over the market and great products can be easily sunk by button pushing MBAs with over-sized egos and too much greed. Only time will tell.

It's going to be a rough ride for us all, until we figure out a way to kill off most of the lawyers and MBAs and all of the stock speculators and get back to honest businesses that aren't built on super-sized hype. Apologies to any lawyers or MBAs on the forum!

[antlind]

I would like to think Mazda, having survived being nuked, could weather the financial problems of today. Of course, speculators have taken over the market and great products can be easily sunk by button pushing MBAs with over-sized egos and too much greed. Only time will tell.

It's going to be a rough ride for us all, until we figure out a way to kill off most of the lawyers and MBAs and all of the stock speculators and get back to honest businesses that aren't built on super-sized hype. Apologies to any lawyers or MBAs on the forum!


Look on the bright side.....if Mazda fails there'll be lots of Mazda3/5/6/CX-7/CX-9 etc going cheap.....(cryhard)

[coolmazda5]

Mazda will never be as big as Honda, or Toyota, or even Nissan for that matter, nor do they want to be (and nothing could make me happier). Niche vehicles will continue to be Mazda's forte, but they will still need help from the main bread and butter cars like the Mazda2, Mazda3, and Mazda6.

That is pretty much it, more niche, forget the bland mass production side. It also has to do with the country where they are producing and selling. Japan doing bad, maybe US and Canada as well, but still growing in places like China, UK and Mexico.

Bland mass production is kind of where I see Hyundai and KIA today, like Honda, Toyota and even Mazda years ago as the article highlights. Growing fast, trying to make every market segment happy, they can and will grow but, if not careful, will bloat soullessly :D

[x10dude]

The other factor is weakness of the US dollar which makes all of Mazda's cars more expensive to sell in the US.

[Rocket]

The real issue is dealerships. When Ford controlled them it was easy to force the local Ford dealership to open a Mazda store. Now that Ford is gone, many of the dealerships will close. Without the distribution and service, the sales will evaporate. That is the big problem. So expect a "strategic alliance", which is another word for distribution.

[Rockin03mp5]

i dont have the article, but ford and mazda are still working together, and ford still has a stake in mazda. they just sold some of their shares to get some cash.

[switek]

I hope Mazda survives on it's own. I know they have/had a relationship with Ford but in my town a Chevy dealer also sells Mazda. Good thing too since the local Ford dealerships are all retards.

[x10dude]

i dont have the article, but ford and mazda are still working together, and ford still has a stake in mazda. they just sold some of their shares to get some cash.

They used to own 33.4% stake in Mazda (controlling stake) but sold 20% of it to raise cash. They still own 13% of Mazda but because of Detroits woes, it no longer can bankroll Mazda's own debt. The problem that Mazda is going to face in the near future is credit.

[jujube]

I would like to think Mazda, having survived being nuked, could weather the financial problems of today. Of course, speculators have taken over the market and great products can be easily sunk by button pushing MBAs with over-sized egos and too much greed. Only time will tell.

It's going to be a rough ride for us all, until we figure out a way to kill off most of the lawyers and MBAs and all of the stock speculators and get back to honest businesses that aren't built on super-sized hype. Apologies to any lawyers or MBAs on the forum!

Whew! As a stock speculator, I'm glad I get to survive the 'carnage' (tee-hee-hee, i made a car forum pun!)

[Mazda5wannabe]

Whew! As a stock speculator, I'm glad I get to survive the 'carnage' (tee-hee-hee, i made a car forum pun!)

Triangulating on your position NOW. Do not be concerned about any helicopters you may hear. They are from the government and are there to 'help' you.

I'm glad that you realize my post was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek. I don't actually want any lawyers, MBAs or speculators to die in a genocidal frenzy.

Well, maybe a couple. I have a list! (lol2)

[Antonio DiMarco]

That was an interesting article, thank you for posting it.

I think that Mazda's smaller size and flexibility enable it to be more nimble, and quicker to respond as market demands change.

They used the "zoom-zoom" campaign very intelligently, and effectively to bring emotion of motion, and better brand recognition to the Mazda nameplate. In addition, they released a bunch of stirring and popular concept cars which hinted at Mazda's future design direction. Not to mention the major improvements in fit/finish and reliability.

One area I feel they should expand on, is the "Web Tune" concept that they have had in Japan for around 7 years now. I would really like to see them bring this feature to North America. This is a terrific web interface that allows customers to build their own Mazda vehicle online, and have it built to order.

Mazda will never be as big as Honda, or Toyota, or even Nissan for that matter, nor do they want to be (and nothing could make me happier). Niche vehicles will continue to be Mazda's forte, but they will still need help from the main bread and butter cars like the Mazda2, Mazda3, and Mazda6.


As long as Mazda stays lean and mean and continues to build the cars they're building they'll be fine. Unlike GM, Toyota or Honda they don't require a committee to drive direction. This lack of red tape allows them to move quickly.

As someone else said they will be in a better position than most becasue they aren't "fat". Based on what I see, they have very agile development processes and don't have a million factories, rather they have a few factories that can switch production very quickly.

[coolmazda5]

As someone else said they will be in a better position than most becasue they aren't "fat". Based on what I see, they have very agile development processes and don't have a million factories, rather they have a few factories that can switch production very quickly.

Here is from O'Sullivan, MNAO CEO:

The great thing about Mazda is that we build a variety of products at one plant. With a flexible plant, we have CX-9, Mazda6, RX-8, and Miata on one line, which lets us keep our costs down. When the market comes back, people's lifestyles change.

The whole interview is here:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123742297

[YOUNGMP3]

If Mazda goes bankrupt I will cry.

[x10dude]

If Mazda goes bankrupt I will cry.

I don't think they'll go bankrupt. If anything they might get bought up by another car company.

[bulwnkl]

Guys, "small and lean" are things the execs say to quell public (and employee) fears. Mazda is 'small and lean' because their mainstream cars simply weren't being bought by the public. They'd have already gone broke at least once without Ford.

Niche vehicles don't cost so little as Mazdas cost. Niche vehicles cost near or over 6 figures. To have niche vehicles costs so little as Mazdas, requires a large and reliable stream of money coming from somewhere/something else. Without that, the niche vehicles disappear along with the company that produces them. Or, if they're really that popular, they just multiply times 10 in price.

I hope that Mazda can stay afloat. I really like our 5, and I really like some of Mazda's other vehicles. OTOH, they are similar to Subaru in precisely zero ways. One of the primary reasons that Subaru is doing so well in these times is that they went mainstream with the Imprezza last year (and more mainstream with their entire line, at least from a styling and driving dynamics perspective). Another reason is that they're an excellent, smaller, more fuel efficient alternative to the full-size SUVs that no one on the planet can give away right now.

[msp 2212]

ive noticed most of us have owned more than one mazda and im sure that if they keep makin good cars that trend will continue (considering we survived the "bland sedans" of the early to mid 90s in the artical)....ive owned 2 but im only 19..
1992 626 turbo
2003.5 msp curent car

[x10dude]

I sure hope Mazda survives as an independent company... but I predict that the landscape of the car industry is going to look drastically different in 12 months. Domestically it has already reached that point. There probably will be alot more consolidation.

Mazda has a very strong lineup so it has great value.... Being small and lean has its advantages but one of the downsides is that its cash reserves is also alot smaller than say Toyota or Honda. I'd feel alot better about Mazda if they can secure some long term financing/credit.

[Katner]

The other factor is weakness of the US dollar which makes all of Mazda's cars more expensive to sell in the US.
Hmmm. Maybe compared to the Yen yes, which is what matters afterall.

I don't think they'll go bankrupt. If anything they might get bought up by another car company.
Precisely. The fact is no matter what the numbers say, and how red the paper gets, Mazda has brand value. At worst they will be desperate and get swallowed by a company that actually still has dough. Noone could resist buying a brand like "Miata" or "Mazda3" for next to nothing. Then of course there is the 5 which has sold out through '08 with zero marketing budget in N. America.

We'll be zoom-zoomin' a while yet.

[DKaz]

Is Mazda really a niche company though? In Canada, the Mazda 3 has been consistently ranked in the top 3 in sales with the Corolla and Civic since its debut in 2004, and I see as many 6s as I do Camrys and Accords. Toyota's disadvantage right now is that their Tundra and Sequoia and 4Runner sales are in the dumps right now. While Mazda's nimble and fun to drive cars have still seen a drop in sales consistent with the other manufacturers' similar cars, Mazda has the advantage of not having big vehicles where sales drops have been more severe.

[bulwnkl]

The fact is no matter what the numbers say, and how red the paper gets, Mazda has brand value. At worst they will be desperate and get swallowed by a company that actually still has dough. Noone could resist buying a brand like "Miata" or "Mazda3" for next to nothing.

Let's be clear about a couple things:

First, nearly no one 'has dough' right now, except venture capital firms that know zero about the automobile business (i.e. Cerberus; look how well they've run Chrysler into bankruptcy).

Second, it's much, much cheaper to buy something after a company has outright failed than to do so before-hand. I've watched PepsiCo (to name only one example) do exactly this time after time over the years. Companies no longer 'rescue' failing firms. They wait for them to fail outright, then pick up the pieces for far less than it would take to assume the failing company's debts.

[Antonio DiMarco]

I don't think they'll go bankrupt. If anything they might get bought up by another car company.

Ahh gettign bough is not a great scenerio either. Mazda was VERY lucky with Ford. The relationship was as perfect as could be. Ford gave Mazda exactly what they needed in terms of financial and marketing support while pretty much leaving their talented engineering and design alone. Imagine what would have happened if the relationship was more like GM and Saab. I'd say Saab was similar to Mazda in their niche/engineering-driven persona and GM pretty much castrated Saab to the point where they were no more than rebadged mediocre GM/OEM vehicles with a few left-over quirks (e.g. ignition position) to keep the Saab lovers believing that they were still driving their beloved Swedish brand. If Mazda was bought by say a Toyota or some mediocre brand like Renault (look what they did for Nissan quality) I would rather see them put to sleep than become a pale imitation of it's once glorious self.

Someone else said it and EVERYONE is cash starved right now. Toyota for instance may not be publically complaining but if you look close enough you'll see evidence of desperation. I don't think I ever saw Toyota offer zero percent financing in my lifetime (I'm teetering on 40). Mazda is offering the same incentives but honestly if anyone has a brain and reads the reviews they know that Toyota has fallen behind with respect to competitive vehicles. The Camry is no longer a class-leading sedan and their manufacturing and materials quality have become average. Toyotas heyday was the 80's and 90's. No more...

Even Ford is building excellent cars now. Have you looked at the new Flex? Materials and workmanship are outstanding, albeit some of the interior details are a bit too retro for my taste :-)

[Antonio DiMarco]

Guys, "small and lean" are things the execs say to quell public (and employee) fears. Mazda is 'small and lean' because their mainstream cars simply weren't being bought by the public. They'd have already gone broke at least once without Ford.

Niche vehicles don't cost so little as Mazdas cost. Niche vehicles cost near or over 6 figures. To have niche vehicles costs so little as Mazdas, requires a large and reliable stream of money coming from somewhere/something else. Without that, the niche vehicles disappear along with the company that produces them. Or, if they're really that popular, they just multiply times 10 in price.

I hope that Mazda can stay afloat. I really like our 5, and I really like some of Mazda's other vehicles. OTOH, they are similar to Subaru in precisely zero ways. One of the primary reasons that Subaru is doing so well in these times is that they went mainstream with the Imprezza last year (and more mainstream with their entire line, at least from a styling and driving dynamics perspective). Another reason is that they're an excellent, smaller, more fuel efficient alternative to the full-size SUVs that no one on the planet can give away right now.

Sure the term's "small and lean" have been overused and as such have lost some meaning. But taken in the literal sense Mazda is small and lean. Having worked for smaller companies I can say that the ability for small companies to react to market and customer needs was always faster than the larger companies I now work for. It's just the nature of the beast. Another overused analogy is that it takes longer for a bigger boat to change direction compared to a speed boat.

Mazda is a smaller boat and can react faster and cut back faster. They are also in a much better position than they were back in the 80's and 90's when they were literally bleeding cash. Back then their line-up wasn't as compelling and worse they're quality control wasn't good. There is not one bad vehicle in the current Mazda Line-up. And as another put it the 3 is the strongest car in it's class. My locale dealership pretty much sold over 20 09 3's last month and several 2010's.

Mazda just needs to be smart and continue to pay attention to their customer base and make subtle changes to their line-up without blowing money on crazy redesigns. They have class leading designs that leap frogged their competition (the 04-09 3 is still considered ahead of the competition's 2010 redesigns).

They stick to their guns and they'll be fine.

Oh and Subaru's are ugly. :-)

[bulwnkl]

I understand your point about the general sloth of a huge organization, and I don't disagree. If I'm working for someone other than me, I prefer the atmosphere of smaller organizations to that of larger ones.

However, 'small and lean' in the automobile business is code for 'dead meat unless somebody much bigger helps us out somehow.' Why? Because small automobile companies don't have the free cash flow to run proper engineering departments. The SAAB example given illustrates this perfectly. SAAB's 'engineering focus' yielded cars that were literally a decade or more behind the competition in almost every respect.

If a 'small and lean' company does spend sufficiently in engineering, then their manufacturing (i.e. QC, tooling replacements, etc.) gets the shaft. That leads to a bad rep for poor quality that takes decades to overcome, if it can ever be overcome.

The primary reason Mazda sells so few vehicles today is because of (relatively) poor quality in the past. That perception, right or wrong, is still with them. That's also the main reason Mazda resale values are lower than the perceived 'high-quality' brands (in general; there may always be specific exceptions).

The same is true of Chrysler corporation, though they're a better long-term example. Chrysler was absolutely on top of the world in the mid to late 1950s, but a few things came together such that they had very poor build quality in about 1957-1959. They NEVER recovered from that.

We can agree to disagree, of course, but I am aware of no automobile company that exists today because of being 'small and lean,' unless it is a unit of a larger automobile company or it's a super-high-priced niche maker (even those are nearly all just brands of a bigger outfit like Fiat, etc.).

[Antonio DiMarco]

I understand your point about the general sloth of a huge organization, and I don't disagree. If I'm working for someone other than me, I prefer the atmosphere of smaller organizations to that of larger ones.

However, 'small and lean' in the automobile business is code for 'dead meat unless somebody much bigger helps us out somehow.' Why? Because small automobile companies don't have the free cash flow to run proper engineering departments. The SAAB example given illustrates this perfectly. SAAB's 'engineering focus' yielded cars that were literally a decade or more behind the competition in almost every respect.

If a 'small and lean' company does spend sufficiently in engineering, then their manufacturing (i.e. QC, tooling replacements, etc.) gets the shaft. That leads to a bad rep for poor quality that takes decades to overcome, if it can ever be overcome.

The primary reason Mazda sells so few vehicles today is because of (relatively) poor quality in the past. That perception, right or wrong, is still with them. That's also the main reason Mazda resale values are lower than the perceived 'high-quality' brands (in general; there may always be specific exceptions).

The same is true of Chrysler corporation, though they're a better long-term example. Chrysler was absolutely on top of the world in the mid to late 1950s, but a few things came together such that they had very poor build quality in about 1957-1959. They NEVER recovered from that.

We can agree to disagree, of course, but I am aware of no automobile company that exists today because of being 'small and lean,' unless it is a unit of a larger automobile company or it's a super-high-priced niche maker (even those are nearly all just brands of a bigger outfit like Fiat, etc.).

It's hard to disagree with your data. The point about Saab is a good one. And yes companies that don't have a lot of cash need to make tough choices between engineering and manufacturing investments. Lucky for Mazda Ford helped them bulk up on both. So as long as the money keeps coing in they should be fine. But who knows when the economic downturn will end. I think I'll just choose to "hope" that Mazda continues to be profitable and survives. The best I can do is continue to be a loyalist and help them make their sales goals by continuing to lead others into the fold. A friend of mine who had a very bad experience with a mx3 decided to try Mazda again based on my experience and recommendation. He test drove a 6 and liked it enough where he's considering a purchase.

This is all I can do. This is all any of us, who value Mazda products can do.

Coming back down to earth for a second though. Ultimately it's only a car and if Mazda doesn't make it then it's all part of the natural order of life.

[x10dude]

Yeah, I'd agree. "Small and Lean" is good in many businesses but in the car industry, that is NOT a good term in this current climate.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Mazda is a solid well run company. They just need some financial backing for the long haul.

[MP5World]

I think in these times Mazda has been looked at by buyers that never thought about owning a Mazda. I own a 2003 Mazda Protege 5 and to me it seems that alot of newer cars by Toyota,Saab,Subaru and others look simuler to my MP5. So everyone that doesn,t know Mazda think it is a Newer Model than 2003. I believe the little sport wagon was ahead of its time. Mine only has min. Mods. Injen Cold Air Intake, Header with Perrin Exhaust,NGK Iridium plugs,Optima Yellow Top Battery,Nology Plug Wires,Cartboy Shifer,Toyo Proxy Tires,and It gets 32 Miles per gallon and is fun to drive. Go Mazda!!!!! Zoom Zoom Zoom

[MazdaSpeeder]

Here is from O'Sullivan, MNAO CEO:

The great thing about Mazda is that we build a variety of products at one plant. With a flexible plant, we have CX-9, Mazda6, RX-8, and Miata on one line, which lets us keep our costs down. When the market comes back, people's lifestyles change.

The whole interview is here:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123742297

This makes me feel very good about Mazda...any company that can produce a large crossover, midsize car, sports car, and whatever the RX8 is on one line is very flexible. I agree that their niche status gives them an advantage, and I don't think that mass as a carmaker is an advantage right now. Eventually they're going to have to become bedfellows with someone for R&D money, but anyone who wants to invest in then would hopefully be smart enough to realize that Mazda's worth is tied up in it's niche. I would guess Ford may cozy up to them again in the future.

[bulwnkl]

It's hard to disagree with your data. The point about Saab is a good one. And yes companies that don't have a lot of cash need to make tough choices between engineering and manufacturing investments. Lucky for Mazda Ford helped them bulk up on both. So as long as the money keeps coing in they should be fine. But who knows when the economic downturn will end. I think I'll just choose to "hope" that Mazda continues to be profitable and survives. The best I can do is continue to be a loyalist and help them make their sales goals by continuing to lead others into the fold. A friend of mine who had a very bad experience with a mx3 decided to try Mazda again based on my experience and recommendation. He test drove a 6 and liked it enough where he's considering a purchase.

This is all I can do. This is all any of us, who value Mazda products can do.

Coming back down to earth for a second though. Ultimately it's only a car and if Mazda doesn't make it then it's all part of the natural order of life.

I agree with you, Antonio. I'm not going to sell our 5 and I wouldn't avoid a Mazda (if I was in the market for a new vehicle) just because of their size/whatever. I like the driving dynamics of Mazdas in general, and I think the 5 in particular is one of the most useful vehicles you can get. I tell everyone who cares to hear how great our 5 is, and that they might want to consider one despite the fact that the nearest dealer is 150-200 miles away. If money was a little different, we might even trade our '06 up for a newer one. The Mazda-Ford alliance has, IMO, been about as close to perfect as automotive alliances get for BOTH companies. I hope they each come through the current climate successfully.

[MP5World]

I looked at a new Mazda Speed 3 and could not believe that I could of drove off the lot with a Mazdaspeed 3,with a turbo charged engine with 260 some horsepower,6 speed tranny and all the style ,looks and handling for right at $23,000 US. I was very impressed and if I didn't think my wife would divorce me I might have left with another Mazda have a 03 MP5 now. I think the quality offering at such a low price was awesome. a base focus is selling for about 5k less. I love my mazda!!!!

[x10dude]

Just came across this... Sadly this is not very good news.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2009/12/report-ford-to-cease-platform-sharing-with-mazda-leaving-japanese-automaker-in-the-lurch.html

Quote: ..."Still, Mazda will now have to develop new platforms on its own, which some analysts have suggested it just isn’t large enough to do."

[x10dude]

More news articles are coming out... basically saying the same thing. Most experts believe Mazda is too small to survive on its own.

What does everyone think? Do you care if Mazda gets taken over... or will you just go over to another car company in the future?

[coolmazda5]

If we think US/Canada centric analysis it might sound ugly, but if we think Global I doubt it, along with those fatalistic news you see this for example: Mazda Nov Sales Rose 67% in China (http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2707997/) or this:Mazda reaches a milestone (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/mazda-222560-year-fuel.html)

Read the whole interview with O'Sullivan, it is interesting...

Now, given how the economy works nowadays might be even be acquired by Chinese, Indian or Russian investors but for sure they will keep the essence of the Mazda brand, that is the main sales attraction (i.e. TATA Land Rover)

My 2 cents :)