Rear wheel camber is eating tires

[WhitewaterPearl]

I need some help with my rear suspension. My wife's 2006 MZ5 has worn thru two sets of tires in 18k miles. Tire rotations were done every 3-4k miles and has had four alignments. The first 3 alignments done by a Goodyear shop adjusted the front passenger side toe twice probably due to her curbing the tire and the rear cross toe was out of spec each time.

I emailed Mazda recently who responded they were not aware of a rear tire issue and I should have my local dealer look at the car. My local dealer said they have seen a few Mazdas that wore the inner edge of rear tires but there is no fix available thru Mazda. I asked if I could have 2009 rear suspension parts installed since their rear wheels are visible more vertical than mine. He said he couldn't because it is not authorized by Mazda. However, they did a free complimentary alignment (again having to adjust the rear cross toe), but said the rear camber was "within 2006 factory specs" and the only thing I can do is to keep rotating the tires every 3k miles. He took some up close pics of bald inner edges of rear tires and of the car from a distance to show how much the tires lean inward. I don't know the details but apparently Mazda told the dealer that if everything was within 2006 specs that they were done... Thanks Mazda!

So I have decided to fix my excessive rear camber issue myself. Which of these options do you all think is best before buying another set of tires?
-Install whatever 2009 factory parts that are different, (maybe too expesive if many pieces are required).
-Install the red Mazdaspeed camber arms.
-Install the adjustable SPC camber arms.

[antlind]

I need some help with my rear suspension. My wife's 2006 MZ5 has worn thru two sets of tires in 18k miles. Tire rotations were done every 3-4k miles and has had four alignments. The first 3 alignments done by a Goodyear shop adjusted the front passenger side toe twice probably due to her curbing the tire and the rear cross toe was out of spec each time.

I emailed Mazda recently who responded they were not aware of a rear tire issue and I should have my local dealer look at the car. My local dealer said they have seen a few Mazdas that wore the inner edge of rear tires but there is no fix available thru Mazda. I asked if I could have 2009 rear suspension parts installed since their rear wheels are visible more vertical than mine. He said he couldn't because it is not authorized by Mazda. However, they did a free complimentary alignment (again having to adjust the rear cross toe), but said the rear camber was "within 2006 factory specs" and the only thing I can do is to keep rotating the tires every 3k miles. He took some up close pics of bald inner edges of rear tires and of the car from a distance to show how much the tires lean inward. I don't know the details but apparently Mazda told the dealer that if everything was within 2006 specs that they were done... Thanks Mazda!

So I have decided to fix my excessive rear camber issue myself. Which of these options do you all think is best before buying another set of tires?
-Install whatever 2009 factory parts that are different, (maybe will too expesive).
-Install the red Mazdaspeed camber arms.
-Install the adjustable SPC camber arms.

I have the MazdaSpeed camber adjustment plates on my 2006 and haven't had any problems...mine is also lowered. I do have a friend who has to same problem you reported. he got fed up and traded his '5' because (like you) the dealer was totally helpless.

[tillyspeed81]

Yeah my stockies got eaten up fast, especially on the inside, I have an 07, but just recently replaced the wheels, I also lowered mine and installed the SPC adjustable camber arms...now my camber has been adjusted so my wheels look fairly upright. Not sure the measurements...but the camber looks better than stock...

[WhitewaterPearl]

Hey, I just read thru the entire The Tire Wear Problem Thread and saw that Mazda fixed a 2006 Touring (just like mine) with control arms from a MS3. The more I read the more I realize how simple the fix is.
I'm not looking for perfectly vertical wheels, it's just that rotating tires every 3k miles on "van with racing camber" was not what my owner manual says I purchased.

[tillyspeed81]

Were they stock MS3 arms? Or the red aftermarket ones? Honestly, those should be enough, my friend who did my alignment and adjusted my camber for me said the SPCs were poorly designed because the adjustments were in a bad location making it difficult to adjust.

[Heat]

...I emailed Mazda recently who responded they were not aware of a rear tire issue and I should have my local dealer look at the car....
That's complete bulls**t, Mazda is very well aware of the problem - tires wearing too quickly on the '06/'07 models is, I would say, the biggest problem they've had with Mazda5's. And if camber wasn't a problem, why else would they have fixed the problems for '08/'09?

But I'm not sure what the solution is. And yes, the camber is noticably different in the '06/'07 vs '08/'09 models.

[red headz]

I can tell you that our stock M5 had a slight rear camber problem when purchased brand new in Feb. 09.

But then we lowered it with stock MazdaSpeed3 springs (see my other thread), and the camber was totally messed up. Wheels looked like //.\\ from the rear(sad2).

So we installed the SPC rear camber arms (adjustable). Yes, they are PITA to adjust... but you only need to adjust them once!... ever!

The red MazdaSpeed3 rear camber arms are not adjustable (more $$ than SPC) and might not be enough depending on your ride height.

[tillyspeed81]

That's true, you do only need to adjust the SPCs once...unless somehow they go out again, or you mess with your suspension...at least it's the alignment guy who need s to do it and not you....they should have the tools to adjust the camber anyways....haha....but since my friend was doing me a favor, he told me how much of a pain in the ass it was...haha(flame2)

[morethan5]

Has anybody installed SPC rear camber arms on a stock (not lowered) Mazda5?

I have a 2008 model, and would like to fix the still-excessive camber before replacing the first set of tires.

As with all other problems, the dealer is useless.

[Zoom5Zoom]

Sorry to but in but is this issue more with the 17" or the 16" rubber..or both?

[07MZ5SA]

Hey, I just read thru the entire The Tire Wear Problem Thread and saw that Mazda fixed a 2006 Touring (just like mine) with control arms from a MS3. The more I read the more I realize how simple the fix is.
I'm not looking for perfectly vertical wheels, it's just that rotating tires every 3k miles on "van with racing camber" was not what my owner manual says I purchased.

Was your 5 lowered?

[WhitewaterPearl]

Was your 5 lowered?

No, still stock. My wife even complained about the ride firmness for a few months when I first installed a set of 19's on her van.
After she wore out the first set of tires I installed a set 19" Work XSA 02C wheels with a tire diameter smaller than stock; about the same diameter and width as a set of 215/50/17 tires.


Check this (apples to orange) comparison: I bought my daughter a brand new 2004 Honda Civic five years ago. It now has 105K miles and has NEVER had an alignment and it still tracks perfectly straight with even tire wear. The original tires were replaced at 65K miles and neither these or the original tire were ever re-balanced, all I have done is rotated the tires every 7-10 miles when she to visits.
I've already spent more on tires, rotations, and alignments than she will the entire life of this Civic.

[WhitewaterPearl]

Has anybody installed SPC rear camber arms on a stock (not lowered) Mazda5?
-I will be installing them on my stock MZ5 later this week.


Sorry to but in but is this issue more with the 17" or the 16" rubber..or both?
-I suspect those that have excessive camber from the factory will still have it with 10" or 26" tires.

[Pinnacle]

Any issues on the 2009's?

[morethan5]

-I will be installing them on my stock MZ5 later this week.

I'll be interested in your results, and what camber numbers you opt for.

At ~7k miles, on my 2008, I rotated the tires. The rear tires could not stand on their own with the wear difference inside to out.

I've never gotten good wear from four-wheel fully-independent suspension vehicles. Of course the Mazda 5 is as bad as I've experienced it. Just because it's set to factory tolerances doesn't make it right.

On the plus side, I've never had a station wagon that cornered like the Mazda 5 can either.

[AO928]

Generally speaking, camber does not induce premature wear on any particular portion of the tire unless it's extreme. From my experience, toe is the most critical factor on tire wear.

If you have excessive toe out, you will tend to wear the inside edges prematurely. Excessive toe in, will wear the outside edges.

Does anyone know what the factory alignment specs are? I have a DIY alignment setup that I use on my 928, but I could easily adapt it to work with the Mazda 5.

[nvanvlymen]

I have a lowered 5 using the ms3 springs.. ive known for a while that i would eat up my tires pretty quick.. has changing the camber on the rear changed how it corners? The SPC kit, how long does it take to install? any estimates?

[WhitewaterPearl]

Generally speaking, camber does not induce premature wear on any particular portion of the tire unless it's extreme. From my experience, toe is the most critical factor on tire wear.

If you have excessive toe out, you will tend to wear the inside edges prematurely. Excessive toe in, will wear the outside edges.

Yes, that is correct. Unadjustable "excessive camber" is the problem we have. I believe the max factory camber is -2.3. Print out of my three alignments were -2.4, -2.1, -2.4, and the dealer did not tell me what is was on my fourth alignment.


I installed the SPC adjustable arms last night. It took 3+ hours, the exhaust hanger is in the way and I had to use an open end wrench to remove and re-install the inner bolt. One thing we noticed immediately on our 5 mile test was that the rear end didn't seem as jittery going over unever patchy roads. Before if felt like the back end was jumping side-to-side and now it feels more stable. We didn't test corning speed since that not a needed criteria for my wife but I expect I will have slow it down a bit due to running less rear camber. I'm going to give it a few days to settle before an alignment this weekend.

I also used an 18" level float to compare the front and rear camber and I am actually running less rear camber that the front now. Not ideal, but it should drop some more while the bushings stretch and settle.

[dima_rus]

I just spoke to Mazda Canada representative Jason about the camber problem. He said that they will investigate that and let me know the result within the next couple of days.
I will keep you guys updated.

Dima

[brarsandeep]

Can't wait to hear what they have to say. I just opened a case with Mazda USA. I have 13.5k miles on our 08 and the inside of the rear tires are almost bald.

I will be taking our 5 in to get the tires changed by the dealer and have them check the Camber/Toe issue.

I have found in the past with other manufacturers that if I created a case prior to having a dealer looking at it an issue, the dealer usually is more open to working with you. Of course I let the service adviser know that case has been opened and provide him with the case number.

[WhitewaterPearl]

Everthing is looking good since installing the SPC adjustable arms. I decided not to waste any more money on another alignment because the van's ride is smoother, the rearend is now more stable on rough roads and tire wear is even across the rear tires.

I just re-checked the camber before logging on with the same level float I used before and infact the suspension has settled some more. Both rear tires are still identically cambered. But I now shows a tad more camber than the fronts...I think my pre install set-up of the adjustment sleeves were spot on.

When I was setting the lenght of the adjustment sleeves I used the two long mounting bolts as guides thru the factory arm bushings and adjusted the SPC arms to the same lenght as the factory arms. I then UNSCREWED THE SLEEVE EXACTLY FOUR TURNS and locked it with the jam nut. This pre install setting has worked out perfectly for rear camber I desired.

[red headz]

When I was setting the lenght of the adjustment sleeves I used the two long mounting bolts as guides thru the factory arm bushings and adjusted the SPC arms to the same lenght as the factory arms. I then UNSCREWED THE SLEEVE EXACTLY FOUR TURNS and locked it with the jam nut. This pre install setting has worked out perfectly for rear camber I desired.

Sounds about right. I've adjusted mine twice now... and I'm about where you are.

michael.

[bulwnkl]

As others have said, the tire wear problems are NOT primarily because of the camber. They're almost entirely because of the toe-in. The camber just causes you to see it very quickly and only on the inside edge. Reducing or eliminating the negative camber will just spread the wear across more the tire tread.

The Mazda 5's factory alignment specs (at least for '06) call for significant toe-in at the rear. That's what you have to correct.

Zero the dynamic toe (that means the toe as the car is driving down the road with your usual load and speed), and the negative camber on the '06/'07 won't wear the tires out to any noticeable degree. Not saying I think they need that much negative camber (I don't think they do), only that the camber is not what the problem is.

I've zeroed the static toe (toe as it sits there on the alignment rack) at the rear of ours and am watching. Our old tires were so worn it was hard to tell anything. We just put brand new tires on it Friday, so I'll be able to see very quickly what's going on.

[ken855]

I agree with the toe being the major factor. My other car is a 04 Miata lowered. It has way more neg camber than my 5 and I drive it like i stole it sometimes. there r no unusual wear on the tires.

My previous car was a Volvo 850 wagon and i had almost -1.5 camber at the front, again no abnormal wear on the inner edge.

[wmzda5]

Does the M5 have toe-in /toe-out adjustment on the rear? Anybody have pics? If you have, you can DIY the toe-in by using a fish line from front tire to rear tire, just make sure the fronts are dead straight. then you vcan adjust the toe based on the fish line straightness.

[red headz]

Yes - the rear toe is very easy to adjust. Standing at the back of the car, look underneath towards the front - each tire has an adjustable bolt with graduated marks on the fixed 'washer'.

Once you loosen this nut, the bolt can move. To adjust, I jacked up the car, then lowered one wheel with just slight pressure onto a 2x6 under the wheel (so the car was still mostly supported by the jack). Then if you adjust the toe bolt, you can really see and hear the wheel turning toe in and toe out.

The online manual has all the correct info - that's where I learned. Actually adjusting the toe was pretty dramatic.

Info found on page 2-11-4 of the workers manual PDF available online. Attached is a picture.
michael.

[Heat]

Here is a good article from tirerack explaining camber, caster, and toe, and why vehicles are set up one way or the other:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4

Though I don’t understand why the Mazda5 has any toe at all, this isn’t a race car. When I buy a tire I expect it to last 45,000 or 50,000 miles and the more I read these tire threads, the more I’m convinced that I’ve bought a lemon with regard to tire issues.

What can be done so that there is zero toe and zero camber, just like any other minivan out there? To heck with high speed cornering, I just want tires that aren’t going to wear down prematurely and as a bonus this will increase fuel economy.

From the above link: Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life.

[bulwnkl]

To adjust rear camber, you must replace suspension pieces; it's non-adjustable from the factory (well, you can always loosen bolts and fool around a little...).

I recommend against zeroing both toe and camber in the back of a 'van' like the 5. Zero the toe if you like, and reduce negative camber if you like as well. But leave a little negative camber. A little will absolutely, positively NOT wear out your tires early so long as dynamic toe is zero, and it's a good idea to have with a vehicle that wants to body-roll in emergency lane changes.

One thing I do not know is how rear toe changes as the suspension loads and unloads. For all I know, rear toe may zero out if you put a decent load back there. That seems unlikely to me, but I don't know either way. If by chance it does work that way, then everyone who zeroes their static toe but runs big loads back there suddenly has toe-out. That's not good for anything at all. Just a thought/note.

[brarsandeep]

Just got back from my Mazda Dealer and had a brand new set of tires put on along with an alignment. The OEM Toyo's I had only had 14600miles on them and were rotated every 5k miles. As you can see from the pic the rears were worn down to the threads (nailbyt) . The alignment tech called me over while he was doing the alignment and said that the rear toe was way off...the most he had ever seen on a 5 or 3. I talked to him about the camber issues and he said that he recommends putting in SPC adjustable camber arms...which I know a few of you have done. In my case though it was all toe that caused my tire wear...LT was -.40 and RT was -.85. He said they should be around .1. He adjusted them back to spec and then told me that he believes that it was set that way from the factory...he said there was some over spray on the adjustable bolts and the paint had not been broken...he said that I may have a case with Mazda. He said that to give me an idea of how much wear the tires went through, he said that at -.3, it would be like dragging your tires 600 miles sideways! Alignment analysis also attached.

[07MZ5SA]

Wow. That' pretty brave driving with inner structure exposed.

[brarsandeep]

Wow. That' pretty brave driving with inner structure exposed.

Honestly, my wife drives the 5 more than I do. I knew they were worn down, but did not really notice it until I pulled up behind it earlier this week and saw how bad they really were. I was on pins and needles for the last 2 days.

[brarsandeep]

Just got off the phone with MazdaUSA and they are going to reimburse me for the Alignment and send me $75 gift card to be used at Mazda...I can use it towards parts or labor for something.

The rep said that had I bought the tires from the dealer, she could have helped out with the cost as well. I am sure that buying a new set of Toyo's from the dealer...even with MazdaUSA covering part of the cost...would still have been way more than what I paid for 4 Kuhmo ASX's...wishful thinking at least.

So, if your rear tires are getting eaten up, have the rear toe checked. If mine was setup incorrectly from the factory, then there has to be others!!!

[WhitewaterPearl]

That the same type wear I was experiencing but I replaced mine before they wore that far.
Strange...my toe was never that far off as yours but I still had the same wear pattern. In my case it wasn't toe I had really bad excessing camber.

Since installing the SPC arms my tire finally wear "normal", I suspect I can go 7-10K miles before needing another alignment.

[schokie]

Ok, WhitewaterPearl and brarsandeep, how are your tires wearing now after a few months? Whitewater put on the SPC arms for the camber and brars only changed the toe. I have a stock 08 with the original Toyos at about 24k miles, rotated every 7k. Never had the alignment checked. Noticing definite wear on the insides of rear tires. Terrible road noise and ready to get new tires pretty soon. So what's the best permanent fix? Get the SPCs and new alignment with new tires? Or just new alignment to hopefully fix toe issue that has (maybe?) caused wear on this set?

Many people have said the Mazda alignment specs are wrong for good tire wear. What alignment specs do people recommend for the rear then?

[WhitewaterPearl]

Mine is a MY06. The tire wear is still even across the threads, no sign of needing another alignment check for a long time.
What seems to be working for me is whatever toe setting the Mazda dealer last dialed in along with the SPC arms which I installed myself. As far as I'm concerned my 5 is fixed.

[brarsandeep]

My wife dirves the 5 most of the time...she has probably only put on 500 miles on it since the toe was corrected. I still think the camber is going to cause wear on the inside of the tires, but probably will not be able to tell until we get a couple thousand miles on the new set of tires. I think the SPC adjustable arms are the way to go, unless you plan on racing your 5. I would probably do this is the 5 if it was our primary family hauler, but our Odyssey handles that chore.

[schokie]

Thanks for the quick follow-ups. I was leaning towards getting the SPCs and fixing the issue once and for all. At about $165 for a pair of the SPCs and a few hours of labor, it will be worth it in the long run to have the tires last and not keep replacing them every 20-30k.

So it seems like the SPCs plus an alignment with slightly negative toe and camber should do the trick.

[FLOODED5]

This is an issue. I;ve seen a fleet with many Mazda 5 in it and EVERY one has tire wear issues related to rear camber.