Automatic Transmission - 4 spd vs. 5 spd

[sea_munky]

Hi. I found a really great deal on a 2007 Mazda5. However, I know the newer models have a 5 speed automatic transmission instead of the 4 speed. (I am set on getting an automatic transmission.)

Can anyone tell me if they've noticed a significant difference either in performance or gas mileage? A new 2009 Touring would cost me $20K and the 2007 used with only 16,000 miles would cost $15K. Is the 5 gear AT worth it?

Thank you and I look forward to your reply.

Cheers!

[morethan5]

From various Mazda 5 forums, it would appear that the 5AT gets better mileage than the 5-speed manual. The 5AT also appears to spin the engine at a slightly lower RPM, when in 5th with the torque converter locked, than the manual does in 5th. The 4AT gets lower mileage and spins the engine faster than both the 5AT and 5MT.

I have the 5AT (although I would have liked the 5MT). I noticed a big difference between the 5AT and 4AT, in terms of driveability around town. Neither is fast, but the 5AT is geared more appropriately to the 3400 lbs. of car, making it feel almost light.

Only $5k for two model years seems like a pretty good deal to me. With the 2009, you'd be the only owner, and have no doubts about how the car was treated. The only plus I see on the 2007 is the relatively low mileage for its age.

If cost is an issue, drop to a 2009 Sport. My 2008 Sport is optioned to have everything the 2008 Touring started with, except for fog lights and LED tail lights. The cost difference at the time was <$1k -- making the lights kind of expensive. (The dealer didn't understand this either -- it was just the way the Mazda numbers worked out.)

With the 2007 you'll also NOT have rear air conditioning -- which is necessary.

You didn't say what trim level the 2007 was, but the 2008+ 5's all came with auto climate control, which is nice.

(note: The edit related to price difference of my car vs. a comparable Touring model... The number was <$1k, but not $2k.)

[sea_munky]

Thank you for your thorough response, morethan5. It sounds like the 5 speed automatic is pretty significant. Well, hence the redesign I suppose.

The 2007 is a Grant Touring and it includes leather and a DVD player. I care about neither of those but they're nice bonuses. What makes me want the Touring rather than the Sport is the moonroof. That's not something the dealer can just add on, right? If I went with the Sport trim, wouldn't I have to find one that already has that option? T

The other attractive part of the Touring package is the rear spoiler, but I suppose that can be a dealer add on, right? This would be my first new car purchase, so I'm not really sure how easy it is to find the package I want.

Were you able to get the moonroof on your Sport? Thanks!

My choices:

used 2007 GT w/ leather, DVD, etc. 16,200 miles - $14750

2009 Touring - $19750 out the door

[morethan5]

I have the moon roof, spoiler, side skirts, 6 disk... -- none of which I wanted. All together, they priced the vehicle outside the range of what most people wanted to pay for a Sport. Finding one without that equipment was a more difficult problem. Sports without option packages sold quickly.

You cannot add a factory spoiler. It is integral to the rear hatch. The rear hatch is different between spoiler and non-spoiler models. (The roof line may be too. The two blend together.) Add-on aftermarket spoilers are bulbous looking by comparison.

Of all of the junk I had to buy (to get my color), the moon roof is what I like the best. Don't even think of trying to add that on. The last thing you want with a new car is somebody hacking the roof apart with a saber saw. The car already flexes a bit more than I'd like (note the complaints about the 50mph vibration and noises at the base of the windshield). I'll take a Mazda roof panel that was designed to have a hole in it, over something added by a body shop any day. At least there's more than the moon roof frame reinforcing something that may protect me someday.

[sea_munky]

That is pretty much what I would want right there. So the touring just has fog lights and LED tail lights on top of those options? If I could save a grand off the Touring trim, I would totally give those up!

I guess I'd better ask around the dealerships. When I find their advertisements on line, they always just list the stock features such as dual side mirrors and other stuff I would expect.

What color didja get?

[Heat]

Download the Mazda5 brochure from the www.mazdausa.com website (I assume you're in the US) and look at the differences between the Touring and the Sport.

The Sport retails for about $17,000 to $17,500 in the St. Louis area before tax, title, license - with automatic transmission. It's $1,000 cheaper for the manual transmission version. And yes, I wholely believe that the 5AT gets better mileage than the 5MT Mazda5's... because they are geared differently - the 5MT has much lower gears, it runs at 3,000 RPMs at 65mph in fifth gear.

I wonder why somebody would go to the trouble of putting the DVD into a GT, drive it for 16,200 miles, then sell it after two years? That was not a happy Mazda5 driver, or maybe there's something wrong with the GT. If you do decide on it insist on a long (100+ miles) test drive. And keep in mind that there were tire issues with the '06/'07 models, high camber causing the tires to "toe" (wear out on the inside edge).

[sea_munky]

Thanks for the tips, heat.


I wonder why somebody would go to the trouble of putting the DVD into a GT, drive it for 16,200 miles, then sell it after two years?

He says he loves his 5, but they just went from 4 kids to 5. As awesome as the 5 is, it still can't solve that problem. LOL! (well, unless you get a UK version).

[Heat]

It's a private seller with a good excuse for selling it - maybe his loss is your gain, especially if you want a DVD player. I was thinking it was off of a dealer's lot where there is no telling how or why he got it.

Tough call.

[sea_munky]

How bad is the toe-in problem on the wheels? Does this affect performance or just add to the "cost to own" as I'd have to replace tires more often?

[mazdaspeedster3]

We have an 07 Touring with the 4 speed AT and I am at 3k at 65 mph. If the 5 speed is at that as well you will only notice the difference at higher speeds than that I would hope... Also, MT get better city MPG than AT as you can shift at lower RPMS than the AT and when you let off the gas and gear down the fuel pump will stop all together unlike an AT that will continue to feed gas at some of those same intervals, like going into reverse instead of engine braking.

[mazdadude]

Just thought I would add to the debate with some good'ol fashioned math.

The following figures are based on 15k miles average a year, and $3 a gallon gas.

If there is a $5k difference between the 07 and 09 models, and the 09 gets say 2mpg better mileage, if you are driving 15k miles a year, with $3 a gallon gas, it will take you around 30 years to make up the $5000 price difference in MPG/ fuel savings.(blowup)


2007 @23mpg, avg $3 a gallon, 15000 miles= 652 gallons gas yearly
2009 @25mpg, avg $3 a gallon, 15000 miles= 600 gallons gas yearly

652 gallons-600 gallons gives you 52 gallons of gas saved a year with 2009.

52 gallons @ $3 a gallon is $156 a year saved with 2009.

Divide $156 a year gas savings into the price you are willing to pay for the 5AT vs. the 4spd AT, and it will take 30 years, or almost a half million miles to pay for the difference in fuel savings.

Now granted, there are some other upgrades beside the 5 speed AT that might sway you towards the newer 09, vs. the 07, but don't let the fuel economy difference dictate your choice. Especially since I have seen 2006 Tourings in the $10k range with ~50k miles here in California.

[sea_munky]

Thanks for the math, mazdadude. I'm not gonna let the mpg sway my decision, but I was curious as to whether the 5sp AT actually gave better performance. I've heard people complaining that they wished there was a higher gear for highway speeds and the 4sp gets noisy cuz of the high revving.

I'm not considering a manual so that takes it out of the debate.

Is the tire wear a serious issue? I'm also in California. I know the older models don't have rear AC control but there's still rear AC vents, right?

[AwaKeN]

It's only vents, you have only 1 zone for the temp control but 2 zones for the vent.

[mazdadude]

2006-2007 have no rear vents, except the vents that come out from under the front seats when using the floor mode.

2008-up have a different center console that contains controls and vents for use by the 2nd row passengers.

This is a important difference because on the 06-07 models the passengers behind the front seats can get uncomfortable quickly with all of the glass on a hot day. On my 2006, tinting the windows helped a bunch, but it is still no match for the rear center console vents of the 08-up models.

[sea_munky]

Yes, I would definitely tint the windows. I'm looking to get a brilliant black one so that would be crucial.

Just thinking aloud:

2007 Grand Touring: (+) $5000 less (+)leather (+)DVD (+)heated seats
(-) no rear AC (-)4 speed AT (-)tire wear/camber problem
(-)only 8 more months of bumper to bumper warranty/2.5 years of powertrain warranty

2009 Touring: (+) new w/ full warranty (+) 5 sp AT (+) rear AC
(+) more "quirks" worked out
(-) $5000 more ! (-) depreciation (-) cloth vs. leather seats

Hmmmmm......2007 owners - how has your vehicle held up? Did you need to do any major "thank goodness for bumper-to-bumper" warranty work?

I'm trying to decide before I go to the dealership, cuz I KNOW what would happen if I get behind the wheel of the 2009. But now that I'm thinking sensibly, $5000 is a pretty big difference.

What would you do?

[mrbwa1]

Just my 2 cents.

We have an '07 4spd auto and routinely drive in Southern Idaho with 75MPH speed limits, so it's kinda like California freeway, but less traffic.

The 5spd auto would be nice, but not $5k nice to me. Even driving at 80 MPH all day, we still can get about 28MPG realistically. I have seen nearly 32MPG under ideal conditions on the highway with the 4spd as well.

As for power, the 4spd does tend to wind out a bit, but the 5 pulls strong to at least 6000 RPM, so it does ok. The real advantage I see to the 5 speed is a little better ratio placement for dealing with partial throttle (ie normal) driving and dealing with hills a little better. The 4 speed tends to lose steam and drop to 3rd with a surge of power (that tends to overwhelm the Cruise I might add).

All said, either is a fine choice.

[Heat]

If it were me and I had to get an automatic transmission...

I would go with the '09 Touring simply because I keep vehicles a long time and the '09 would be two years newer. Thus... I would have two more years of warranty plus two more of the best years of the vehicles life on it. Plus I could get the color I wanted, know how it was driven, know that the maintenance was done, and of course the 5AT.

If you think you may be trading it in in three to five years, just get the GT and live it up. The 4AT isn't the end of the world and the leather would be nice.

As far as the camber issue, do a search, there are quite a few threads on it. I can say that I have parked my '09 next to an '06 at work and the '06 definately had more tilt in the rear wheels (camber)... and the inside toe was bald on it.

[FYF]

Hmmmmm......2007 owners - how has your vehicle held up? Did you need to do any major "thank goodness for bumper-to-bumper" warranty work? What would you do?

I know a Mazda parts guy on another forum. This is what he had to say about the Mz5:


The 5 is an interesting little buggy. Based off the 3, but a mini-mini-van. I was surprised to find it available in a stick.
Haven't driven one, but they really don't come in for problems.

Good enough for me.

[5zoom]

You definitely want the 5AT. The extra gear is great when 3rd is too short and 5th is too tall on a grade going up or down. With only 153hp on tap(in California), it needs all the help it can get when loaded up with people/cargo and AC.

Speaking of AC, the rear vents are a must if you carry passengers in the middle and rear rows. The two speed fan in the rear makes all the difference.

I think the instument panel lighting is better on the 08+ models and the interior seems to be made of higher quality materials. The one disadvantage is the loss of the cover over the center storage area and the cover over the cupholders on older models(its a great place to stash stuff).

I have 27k on my original Toyo tires and they still have life left in them and I have an 08 5AT.

[sea_munky]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. A local dealer is advertising a 2009 GT for 18950. This seems really low so I asked them if this was a dealer-owned employee car or some other dealer used "new" car. I'm waiting to hear back.

[mazdaspeedster3]

22K miles on our 07 touring (no leather but nav and loaded) with ZERO issues. Great car!

[morethan5]

That is pretty much what I would want right there. So the touring just has fog lights and LED tail lights on top of those options? If I could save a grand off the Touring trim, I would totally give those up!

I guess I'd better ask around the dealerships. When I find their advertisements on line, they always just list the stock features such as dual side mirrors and other stuff I would expect.

What color didja get?

White.

You can browse dealer inventories on-line, pull the stickers, etc...

Also, if you know somebody that works for Ford or a company that supplies Ford, you could ask for an employee or supplier plan code number or voucher. For suppliers, employees are usually given two per year -- and they can be given to friends. Those prices should be about as good as they get.

[Kojack]

I have the 4at, I drove approx 950 kms this past fall, and filled up once, and still had 1/2 tank left after that trip...i was impressed to say the least. gets amazing milage on the highway, not the greatest around town..but thats ok..its only 45.00 to fill. compared to 130 for my truck.

[sea_munky]

Hi. Thanks for everyone's responses. So I found what I think is a great deal. It is a 2009 GT for 18,950. Tax here is 8.25%. The dealer quotes out the door as 21,790. That's 15% over the price?!?! This would be my first new car purchase so I'm not used to what fees, etc. get added on.

By my calculations, 21,790 OTD - 18,950 (price) - 1,563.37 (8.25% tax) = 1,276.63 in fees.

What the heck kind of fees add up to 1276.63?

[morethan5]

What the heck kind of fees add up to 1276.63?

It's everything the dealer can come-up with to make money.

Ask for an itemized list, and post it. We'll tell you what's legitimate...

[mrbwa1]

What the heck kind of fees add up to 1276.63?

They always try to get you with fees. We were offered out '07 at Dealer Invoice, so we went over to Edmunds.com and Printed Out the TMV price including all options, along with our location (to get the destination charge).

The wife got to do bargaining this time and set a hard line,: The car + options at Invoice + destination... nothing else. We managed to get it.

Arm yourself with the paperwork and you are in a better position to deal. Bea realistic as well as destination is usually something like $695 and you can't really avoid that. You can however avoid things like dealer markup.

[mazdadude]

Hi. Thanks for everyone's responses. So I found what I think is a great deal. It is a 2009 GT for 18,950. Tax here is 8.25%. The dealer quotes out the door as 21,790. That's 15% over the price?!?! This would be my first new car purchase so I'm not used to what fees, etc. get added on.

By my calculations, 21,790 OTD - 18,950 (price) - 1,563.37 (8.25% tax) = 1,276.63 in fees.

What the heck kind of fees add up to 1276.63?

Take that OTD price, and use it to shop several other dealers in your general vicinity.

Ask the other dealers to beat your dealers OTD price, do this via the internet or telephone. Then take the lowest price back to your dealer, and get them to beat it. Then work on getting extras like add-on options, or extended warranty, free oil changes, etc., thrown in with the deal. It takes a little effort on you part, but if you are concerned with getting the max savings, I have found this to be the best method.

[sea_munky]

Thanks for the replies.

In general, do you think this is a good OTD price? (21,790). Basic GT, no other options. The car has 1500 miles on it because someone else purchased it, took it home, but then did not qualify for financing so the dealership reclaimed it. The title never changed hands but possession changed.

[FYF]

Thanks for the replies.

In general, do you think this is a good OTD price? (21,790). Basic GT, no other options. The car has 1500 miles on it because someone else purchased it, took it home, but then did not qualify for financing so the dealership reclaimed it. The title never changed hands but possession changed.

Sounds high to me.

[mazdaspeedster3]

Dont forget TTL.

[Heat]

Check to see what www.edmunds.com says is a fair market value for your area, but remember that the car is used, not new. OK, it may be technically a new car, but if another family drove it for 1,500 miles, it's a used car in my opinion.

And also remember that there is currently a $500 cash back offer plus 0.9% financing for three years on new cars from Mazda. Ask if this vehicle qualifies for this offer. If they say "no" then you know for sure that it is being treated like a used car... and you should price it as such.

[sea_munky]

Edmunds says dealer invoice is 21,899 (with destination charge) so my out the door is $110 below that. But then again, the car IS 1500 miles old.

Would a carfax give me any more insight, you think, into how this car was handled. I guess I'll ask for the VIN and see how they react cuz they claim the title never changed hands. In california, you HAVE to register a car within 10 days of changing ownership. 1500 miles is a lot of driving for 10 days.

TMV in this area is 22,134. Edmund's TMV is BEFORE TTL, right?

[morethan5]

Find another car or get a better price.

[Heat]

...Edmund's TMV is BEFORE TTL, right?
Yes, but also check www.edmunds.com for the price on an '09 used car with 1,500 miles.

[sea_munky]

Neither edmunds nor Kelly Blue book will let me price a used 2009. They will price used 2009 mazda3's and 6's but I guess the mazda5 is still too new.

When I price a 2008 at that mileage, they give me a dealer resale price of 21,179. That's before TTL.

My dealership is saying 21,790 out the door (8.25% tax). Which SEEMS like a good deal, but something doesn't feel right or I feel like I could get lower.


Find another car or get a better price.

what price would you shoot for personally? This is a grand touring and compared to KBB and edmund's TMV, it is lower than their quotes.

[sea_munky]

Thanks everyone, for their thoughtful comments. It's really nice to find a community like this where its members are so willing to help, even an uninitiated like me! But I will be another proud m5 owner soon! Just not yet...

So the dealership lowered their OTD price to 21,500. Which I think is a good price. However, they were very slow / reluctant to give straightforward answers to what I think are simple questions. Mainly, for how long did the person have the car? They were also very slow to give me the mileage and have not given me the VIN.

So I no longer worry that I passed on a great deal, even though I did. I'd rather deal with a straightforward dealer. Her last quote was the final deal breaker.


So if this is not the car for you, no worries, but you did pass up more car for the money than you will ever find...
Ever.


Even in closing they are pushing for the sale. I will get myself a 2009 Touring model instead. From somewhere else.

[mazdadude]

There are lots of fish in the sea...

It is also pretty easy to go online to the Mazda web site, build the Mazda5 to your specs, and then do a search of all of the dealers within a large radius, there is also a link after you do your first radius search, to "search more dealers" that expands your search even further.

You can find the exact one you want that way, or you can also use the Mazda Online Live Chat tool, to get help from a Mazda NA representative.

Once you find your vehicle as you want it equipped, you will then have a MSRP to work off of. Then you can go to the edmunds website to see what the dealer invoice prices are and you will be able to see the difference between invoice and MSRP. Usually for the Mazdas it is around $1500-3000 difference, then from that invoice price you can subtract any of the current rebates, dealer cash, dealer holdbacks, etc. to get your final invoice price. Then add that final invoice price, tax, title, documentation, destination fees to get your total OTD price. Use this total OTD price to pit a few dealers against eachother and see who wants the sale more.(bicker)

[FYF]

Thanks everyone, for their thoughtful comments. It's really nice to find a community like this where its members are so willing to help, even an uninitiated like me! But I will be another proud m5 owner soon! Just not yet...

So the dealership lowered their OTD price to 21,500. Which I think is a good price. However, they were very slow / reluctant to give straightforward answers to what I think are simple questions. Mainly, for how long did the person have the car? They were also very slow to give me the mileage and have not given me the VIN.

So I no longer worry that I passed on a great deal, even though I did. I'd rather deal with a straightforward dealer. Her last quote was the final deal breaker.



Even in closing they are pushing for the sale. I will get myself a 2009 Touring model instead. From somewhere else.

Try looking here: http://www.autotrader.com/

We found ours there. Apparently they're near-impossible to find in our area with a manual transmission.