140ish?

[norwood1026]

So the other day I ran across a thread about this guy trying to get any where between 175 WHP to 200. I can't find the thread again but I started to think how much money it's going to cost him to get that kind of WHP without a turbo. I was planning to get the same kind of power out of my 1.8 without a turbo, but after reading that I'm not so sure I want to try.

I think I'm just going to try for 140ish or so the car has pretty decent power now. what sort of things should I think about adding to get this? Is this a pretty attainable goal without costing me my marriage??? (yupnope)


I do plan to get the suspension tuned & the paint done as I go thats a given.

[br289165]

140 whp seems to be about max on a 1.8, of course I should expect Mr. Worm to interject his theories here. A header, full exhaust,CAI or short ram intake, intake manifold, cams, cam gears,maybe high comp pistons,port and polish head, ecu. When done maybe $3,000 including the labor. Maybe more. I'm in the process now, but with a 2.0. I'm just not a big turbo fan, pardon the apparent pun. Too much tech, too much to go wrong and it always seemed like the easy way and I don't like the way they sound. Of course no NA car will be capable of a turbocar, not even an RSX type s or a Civic Si, but they scream all the way to 8,000 and reliably at that.


So the other day I ran across a thread about this guy trying to get any where between 175 WHP to 200. I can't find the thread again but I started to think how much money it's going to cost him to get that kind of WHP without a turbo. I was planning to get the same kind of power out of my 1.8 without a turbo, but after reading that I'm not so sure I want to try.

I think I'm just going to try for 140ish or so the car has pretty decent power now. what sort of things should I think about adding to get this? Is this a pretty attainable goal without costing me my marriage??? (yupnope)


I do plan to get the suspension tuned & the paint done as I go thats a given.

[Ice88]

Heres a list:
3 angle valve job + port matching - should help :)
Upgraded valve springs (eibachs)
ECU - Microtech or Haltech.
Cams - Twiggys are the best.
IM - 626
Autoexe or Bored out 626 Throttle Body
4-1 - Tunedish header or Autoexe/Maxim Works 4-2-1. Note OBX and pretty much every header isnt tuned length. Best that i know of are Ractive, Pacemaker and the two 4-2-1s that i listed above. The Auto Exe is the best off the shelf item.

Tune for about 7,500 to 7,750 and you should get close AFAIK :)

[norwood1026]

140 whp seems to be about max on a 1.8, of course I should expect Mr. Worm to interject his theories here. A header, full exhaust,CAI or short ram intake, intake manifold, cams, cam gears,maybe high comp pistons,port and polish head, ecu. When done maybe $3,000 including the labor. Maybe more. I'm in the process now, but with a 2.0. I'm just not a big turbo fan, pardon the apparent pun. Too much tech, too much to go wrong and it always seemed like the easy way and I don't like the way they sound. Of course no NA car will be capable of a turbocar, not even an RSX type s or a Civic Si, but they scream all the way to 8,000 and reliably at that.



Someone has a a banner that says "I miss the boost but not the headaches" Which I can understand. I looked at the dyno sheets & most cars that are N/A seem to run around 130WHP to 140 ISH.

Even when I get a Miata I'm staying away from turbos I'm not knowing those who have them but I think I'm going to blower route I understand how they work better.

[Ice88]

Its not the max, with the 1.8s rod ratio it shouldnt be too hard to achieve 160 hp. Given some thought and some money gets put into it 180 should be attainable :)

Using the right rods and pistons and some nice beefy wrist pins other then Mean Piston Speed there isnt much stoping the FP from spinning to the same levels as B18s

[zoompastu]

this is true. I have both motors and I chose to build the 1.8L. the 1.8L is a destroked 2.0L so a shorter block depth but everything else is the same with the 2.0L but it is capable of a higher piston speed (speed of piston moving up and down not in relation to RPM) do the cams. the j-spec cams are great but a good custom set that makes power to 7,200 is better. A light weight flywheel makes a world of a difference. Also port the exaust side of the head and portmatch the manifold. put in the mx6 injectors and........... well this will be a mile long list. basicly all the little things add up. I have a s### ton of work done to mine. but I also have a very good knoledge of what does and doesn't make power. not tooting my horn but it what my degree was in. tell a carpenter that he doesn't know how to build a house. bottom line is if you want power then research and build a proper turbo car. or build the N/a car but in the end it will be more money for N/A with less gains. don't be scared of turbos. they are one of the most efficiant ways of making power. study them. take what people post on these forums with a grain of salt. there are some great people on here with a wealth of knowledge and others that have money and a computer and an opinion. Good Luck!

[E21BIMMERHEAD]

this is true. I have both motors and I chose to build the 1.8L. the 1.8L is a destroked 2.0L so a shorter block depth but everything else is the same with the 2.0L but it is capable of a higher piston speed (speed of piston moving up and down not in relation to RPM) do the cams. the j-spec cams are great but a good custom set that makes power to 7,200 is better. A light weight flywheel makes a world of a difference. Also port the exaust side of the head and portmatch the manifold. put in the mx6 injectors and........... well this will be a mile long list. basicly all the little things add up. I have a s### ton of work done to mine. but I also have a very good knoledge of what does and doesn't make power. not tooting my horn but it what my degree was in. tell a carpenter that he doesn't know how to build a house. bottom line is if you want power then research and build a proper turbo car. or build the N/a car but in the end it will be more money for N/A with less gains. don't be scared of turbos. they are one of the most efficiant ways of making power. study them. take what people post on these forums with a grain of salt. there are some great people on here with a wealth of knowledge and others that have money and a computer and an opinion. Good Luck!
hey what did you do for your computer? is it still the factory 1.8L? Doesnt it cut spark at 6700rpms? also what do you think about using mx6 injectors on pretty much a stock engine or maybe even just rebuilding and balancing my stockers? would the computer know what to do with them?

[zoompastu]

yeah i'm running the stock ecu but if I ran some cams that could make power to 7200 rpm I would have to run different software. the computer will adjust injector pulse width according to its programing the spray pattern is what makes the difference. don't know what it would do to a stock motor. i wouldn't waste my time with it untill other things have been done

[Ice88]

zoompastu,

Can you please provide some more info in regards to mx6 injectors. K series injectors yeah? The spread the only difference im guessing?

Ive got cams on the regrind, Haltech ECU in the works. Would love any knowledge you have on the finer points of our engines as they arent very well documented.

So far planned in the works:
626 Intake Manifold
Haltech Plat Series ECU
Custom CAI (Needs air box to be legal)
Reground cams

Was considering flywheel but my car is jap spec so only improvements could be found in machined stock or AWRs. Would also love any information you have in regards to swapping to g series box :D

Sorry for all the questions but its hard finding people/posts with alot of information regarding FPs :)

[ajkulish]

well for those of you who dont like turbos try a supercharger
it helps better at low rpms too'

[NCZ13]

that still a form of forced induction, not to mention will be much harder to go about doing with this engine being that not that many people have supercharged the FS. Everything will have to be custom... and would probably end up costing more than turboing it...

[zoompastu]

the mx6 injectors flow more than the stock fp but not as much as the 2001-03 FS injectors. going stand alone is going to open you up to a new better world of tuning and realy being able to have control over everything the motor is doing. I could tell a difference in lowend torque after runing the different injectors.

I would like to supercharge someday too. a lysholm super charger is sweeeet and would be easy to make work if you ditch the ac.

pull off your header and take paper towels and stuff it into the head. take a dremmel and grind away the inside of the ports and portmatch the exaust side of the head. take a shop vac and suck out the metal shavings. pull the paper towels out and start the motor for three seconds to blow out anything that might stil be there. anyone with a FS should do this too. BIG improvment across the powerband.

As for the flywheel get rid of that crappy F series gearbox and put in a g15mr. you will need FS tranny mounts and if you do like me you will need MSP left right and jack axles to fit into the MSP transaxle. if you get the MSP transaxle you need to pull it apart and put in a speedo drive gear and the pink VSS (vehical speed sensor). the MSP one have a dummy plug that looks like it has a sensor in it already. I have to pull everything apart and put the speedo stuff in this summer. I've been geting my speed from my tach for the last year after cruching gear ratios to find out what speed is at what rpm in what gear. I used the exadyclutch kit for the FS and a jspec flywheel that is around 17 pounds. I reccomend just getting the 7 or 9 lbs fly wheel insted.

[Ice88]

You guys use the KL, KF engines over there in the Mx6 yeah?

What about using a MP3 transmission, australia doesnt get mazdaspeeds :(

[mckernan]

for 7000$?

buy a used KL-ZE engine and install it for 3000 easily.
which will push you to about 190whp non-turboed.

[KZL_99ES]

I used the exadyclutch kit for the FS and a jspec flywheel that is around 17 pounds. I reccomend just getting the 7 or 9 lbs fly wheel insted.

wait, i thought the 1.8 and 2.o trans are different?

[Ice88]

wait, i thought the 1.8 and 2.o trans are different?

They are the 1.8 uses F series box (F25M-R or something i think) and the SP20 (2.0 engined cars) use G series box.

SP20 = 2 litre here in australia :) (equivalent to the MP3 really)

[zoompastu]

yeah they do come with a F box but I swapped it out with a MSP G box with LSD and the larger MSP axles. still running 4 lug for now.

[Jas00x]

wait, i thought the 1.8 and 2.o trans are different?

I installed a modified 1.6L Miata Fidenza flywheel on my 2000 ES (with F-type transmission) and it works great. Here's the deal with flywheels/clutches on 1.8 vs 2.0.
The 2.0L flywheel will attach to the 1.8L engine, no problem. However, the F-type transmission has fewer splines, so the 2.0L clutch/pp won't fit. Also the clutch disc size (and the coordinating friction area on the flywheel) are different sizes.

Here's what I did:
Buy the Fidenza 1.6L Miata flywheel and have it machined to fit.
note: the miata flywheel has a smaller bolt pattern, and a smaller "mounting plate" recess on the back side. However, it does have the correct dowel pin locations to fit the Protege 1.8L pressure plate, and the matching sized friction area to match the Protege 1.8L Clutch.

You need to machine the backside so that it matches the diameter of the mounting plate on the FP enigne.
While at the machine shop, you then need to machine/redrill the FP bolt pattern.

Fortunately for me, I have a buddy who works in a machine shop and got the work done for free. Even if you have to pay for it, it was only about an hour worth of work, and should be fairly affordable.

Any other way to get a light flywheel on a 1.8L w/F-type tranny, is going to be alot more expensive and take a lot longer to get.
I had thoguht about a Custom flywheel ($750-$900) or custom clutch with a 2.0L clutch with a F-type splined center so I could just use the FS flywheel and pressureplate.

I always hear alot of crap about the F-type transmission, and I have infact blown the differential while autocrossing (in '03). However, I was just not being carefull about controlling wheel-hop of the starting line, and it turned out I had worn out motormounts too. Since then I haven't had any issues. I have now installed an OPM Limited Slip Differential, the stiffest AWR motor mounts, and stiffer ployurathane shifter bushings. I believe the best thing you can do to protect your transmission (differential) is to control wheel-hop. I imagine with higher horsepower like on a turbo engine, or for higher speed driving (like on a road course) the strength of the actual gears comes into play. For me, just driving around on the street and then competing in Autocross (mostly 1st & 2nd gear), the F-type has been fine.

[mckernan]

I have now installed an OPM Limited Slip Differential, the stiffest AWR motor mounts, and stiffer ployurathane shifter bushings.

i was thinking of this too as one of mine is no good and i dont want to have the same trouble again with the stock which are crap,
but is it true that it will cause a vibration in the cabin?
im a n00b. lol.

[fishdonotbounce]

I have all 4 urethane mounts. My front and rear are the AWR 88 duro which isn't the stiffest. I also have Medival's transmission mount and SU's passenger side mount. I get pretty hardcore vibrations especially when the car is first turned on and put into reverse. Also when the AC is on, the vibrations at idle are pretty rough. I'm fine with it though and since I'm going turbo, it'll help.

[Dparks7]

do the mx6 injectors do anything for performance without a tune?

[mckernan]

I have all 4 urethane mounts. My front and rear are the AWR 88 duro which isn't the stiffest. I also have Medival's transmission mount and SU's passenger side mount. I get pretty hardcore vibrations especially when the car is first turned on and put into reverse. Also when the AC is on, the vibrations at idle are pretty rough. I'm fine with it though and since I'm going turbo, it'll help.

my hood vibrates pretty bad when the engine is on,
its not so much the feeling, but the sound thats bad.
its only at idle, but i'm hoping changing the belts will fix it,
or the mounts. but i doubt its either. it's not even dented, i dont understand it

[StealthWyvern]

my hood vibrates pretty bad when the engine is on,
its not so much the feeling, but the sound thats bad.
its only at idle, but i'm hoping changing the belts will fix it,
or the mounts. but i doubt its either. it's not even dented, i dont understand it

Keep the rear motor mount stock and you wont get that annoying abuzzing sound that you get with solid mounts. I personally thinkg all solid with a stock rear is the the best setup without the noise. My hood vibrates as well and my mirrors

[mckernan]

Keep the rear motor mount stock and you wont get that annoying abuzzing sound that you get with solid mounts. I personally thinkg all solid with a stock rear is the the best setup without the noise. My hood vibrates as well and my mirrors

my driver side mirror vibrates to the beat of songs cus the support is a tad loose.
haha
i haven't fixed it cuz i find it cool

[E21BIMMERHEAD]

yeah they do come with a F box but I swapped it out with a MSP G box with LSD and the larger MSP axles. still running 4 lug for now.

did doing this miss match your power to the ratios in the gearbox? I really never plan on getting a lot of power out of my engine, would you recommend this swap or just some how beefing up the F-series box, did you loose power, etc.? I have already had to change out my gearbox because I blew out the diff(playing racecar driver autoxing/brackroad burning) and over the winter I got stuck quite a lot because MPLS roads suck to park on...anyways from doing a lot of rocking I began to hear clicking from my driver side/center, now I just noticed a possible leak from diff-axle. Im fearing the worse and am weighing my options. I dont want to get rid of my protege(cant really think of a better small 4-door to drive! and Im attacked to the car)but I really dont want to be breaking transmissions every 2 years.....

[mckernan]

i would still say go with a kl or kj

just make sure you know what you're doin cuz mechanics and their cpu's wont buy looking at the badge on the car

[zoompastu]

with the mx6 injectors I could tell a difference in the lowend with the mods that are done to my car. Gear Ratios ar basicaly the same between the f and g box. lsd is the bomb. I can sit at a stop light to turn left, a 90 degree turn. at green I punch it and as I'm turning left I'm shifting into second gear at 27mph just as I'm starting to cross the cross walk and start to finish my left hand turn still accellorating in second. these cars have so much potential and are one of the best kept secrets in the sport compact world. Or maybe in the sports car world. When I was a BMW Technician I would drive ///M3's and ///M5's and modded 335i and other sweet cars. sure they are faster then my car and have lots of goodies in them. but I could get in my Mazda at the end of the day and still have a smile on my face. When I first put the Intake Cam upgrade, in my boss at the shop asked if it felt any faster after I did the first test drive. I laughed and said how the hell do I know. I've been driving a 6 speed 540i at home and work the last few days. but man I love my protege!!