What if this happend to the MS3

[BayAreaMS3]

With 2010 MS3 coming up Lets hope Mazda doesn't pull a Subaru on us. Subaru; 'New design refreshed look 2008. Ok. Let's add 40hp a year later and make the suspension better. Mazda 'Redesign refreshed look. Ok. Let's add 37 hp to make 300hp and AWD for 2011-2012. This is the fear id have if i were to buy the 2010 ms3. I'd rather wait see what happens. What do you guys think?

[becks]

Considering the 2010 isn't going to be much different to what we have now (performance wise) I think the 2010.5 or 2011 will have some hp increase or/and some other goodies

[happy and angry]

I think the vehicle as designed can't really handle all the power in generates now and a manufacturer isn't likely to push it beyond what it already has, especially a company like Mazda who has always put a premium on handling dynamics and vehicle balance over straight power. It would take a bit of a redesign to do, and redesigns cost money, which is one of the reasons why the incoming Mazda3/Mazdaspeed3 are so very similar to the current models, save cosmetically.

I also think people should stop expecting this car to be AWD. Mazda is not going to do that to the car any time soon given how much it will cost to do, and how that cost will translate to us, the consumer. Especially not right now.

I'm not worried.

[Circle9]

My exact thoughts, to give this fwd car any more power, they are going to need to make it rwd or awd.

I think the new MS3 might be slower, car companies seem to like to add more and more weight.

[mgerst1]

why wouldnt mazda make the new ms3 awd? they made one year of the ms6 awd

[mgerst1]

most of the car comanies are putting out awd vehicles now anyway

[J-Villa]

I thought there was something in the 2010 speed3 press release about Future models being AWD?
Could have sworn I read it, but don't have time to look for it right now.


All they would need to do is put a haldex unit in (the kind that uses the front wheels as main power unit, and transfers power to the rear as needed I believe is how the haldex ones work). If the speed3 was a AWD, it would def. be a big contender to the Evo's and Scoobys. Especially with the technology jumps the 2010 model has now too

[SallySpeed3]

The fact that the Mazdaspeed6 was only out for a year, maybe two? I don't remember, but it goes to show you that the sales obviously weren't good, or they would have kept up production. I believe the sticker price for the Speed6 was around 30K, alot more than the Speed3, and the reason is because it was AWD. If they made the Speed3 AWD the price would bump up, which would probably lead to less people buying it, and so on. Having said that, I think it would be awesome (doubt it would happen) if they offered a special edition Speed3 that was AWD and even more HP that you could special order from the factory for around 30K or so.

[GoFast]

i think that with that kind of thinking you will ultimately never buy any MS3. The next year will (almost) always be better than the previous year even if just by a little bit.

[Peter B]

What if the sky falls? What if the russians really did loose their nuclear weapons and one goes off and hits NY? What if Santa isn't fake after all, and is infact having an affair witht he Tooth Fairy?

I wouldn't worry. The new 2010 MS3 is going to have the same performance with a better suspension. It won't be heavier, not enough to matter anyway.


And yeah I wish people would give up on the AWD thing. I like my FWD and getting 30MPG highway.

As for speculation as to what Mazda might add to the 2011, 2012, well thas just silly. Lets face it, no one here has a clue. Maybe a few educated guesses, but thats it. I don't think anyone here rubs elbows much with the powers that be at Mazda, so really its a silly question and a silly thing to worry about. Hell, for all we know there might not even be a 2012 MS3. Thats 3 years away and a lot of things can change between now and then.
Worrying about what the next gen is gonna have is pointless, like someone said they are only going to keep making the car better, if you want the car, buy it. If the next gen is soo much better you MUST have it, then trade your car in.

And im pretty sure Subaru upped the power and suspension on the 09 wrx because the 08 sucked, and they were tired of getting spanked by the MS3 in car magazine reviews.

[J-Villa]

And im pretty sure Subaru upped the power and suspension on the 09 wrx because the 08 sucked, and they were tired of getting spanked by the MS3 in car magazine reviews.

QFT.

Although, a man can dream about AWD. (sssh)

[Fenrir]

Yeah except the new wrx(/sti)'s are oooooogly.

[Bravnik]

Yeah except the new wrx(/sti)'s are oooooogly.

So is the 2010 MS3 and MZ3.

[DaleNixon]

The only thing the 2010 will have that I will envy is better gearing and suspension.

[Sport6]

I doubt they will change it, but if they do? I am fine with it since I won't be buying the 2010 anyway.

[J-Villa]

Yeah except the new wrx(/sti)'s are oooooogly.

to each his own? I think they look real good in black, lowered, with blacked out tail lights (all those chrome catches your eye too much)

[GoFast]

+1 I personally think they look great.

[BayAreaMS3]

If these guys could do it DG Motorsports AWD Mazdaspeed Mazda3. Why can't Mazda? Source; Edmunds.com/insideline;
"The great miracle of it all, according to Jack Stavana, Mazda's director of accessory operations, has been that the Mazdaspeed 3 chassis required very few modifications to accept the all-wheel drivetrain. There was adequate room in the floorpan's central tunnel to sit the driveshaft just a hair below the chassis line thanks to a little fabrication. The Mazdaspeed 6 rear differential is supported by the stock Mazdaspeed 3 rear suspension, which DG says has proven more than adequate. The brakes received a minor makeover courtesy of new pads and rotors."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66Rn_shEBbs

[DublinDapper]

It has to be all about pricing!

This vehicle's performance is crazy good for the price against nearly all competitors!

[GoFast]

If these guys could do it DG Motorsports AWD Mazdaspeed Mazda3. Why can't Mazda? Source; Edmunds.com/insideline;
"The great miracle of it all, according to Jack Stavana, Mazda's director of accessory operations, has been that the Mazdaspeed 3 chassis required very few modifications to accept the all-wheel drivetrain. There was adequate room in the floorpan's central tunnel to sit the driveshaft just a hair below the chassis line thanks to a little fabrication. The Mazdaspeed 6 rear differential is supported by the stock Mazdaspeed 3 rear suspension, which DG says has proven more than adequate. The brakes received a minor makeover courtesy of new pads and rotors."

it's not that they can't do it, it's that they won't do it. The MS3 is incredibly successful because of the amazing performance at a very low price point. The extra that you would pay for the AWD would price the MS3 out of the target demographic that the car is geared to.

[BayAreaMS3]

That is why i went with the MS3 price. Otherwise i'd be on the Subaru Forums.

[J-Villa]

That is why i went with the MS3 price. Otherwise i'd be on the Subaru Forums.

+1

[Peter B]

If these guys could do it DG Motorsports AWD Mazdaspeed Mazda3. Why can't Mazda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66Rn_shEBbs

Mazda certainly can do it. But people need to realize for all the whining we do about not having AWD the car is hugely successful with out it. Reviews put this car in the top of its class over and over, above the AWD WRX and ralliart. With good sales and great reviews why change? Sales numbers speak louder then anyone on this forum.

You could do the same mod. I thought I read someplace where they did it for less then 5k? If you drop that extra cash on the MS3 it will be priced the same as the subbie with the same options.

Keep in mind that AWD would only really improve launching and the cars ability to plow through 2 ft of snow. The other 99.999% the time the car is fine without it. I know it helps with cornering, but the 08 MS3 cornered as well as the WRX if you ask me.

[08cosmic3]

If it were AWD, it would be out of my price range. And if I could afford a few thousand more I would have bought something else.

[SeR_Cyclops]

While it would BUMP the price up it would be sweet if they could do a limited production run of AWD ms3s or if not mazda let a private company do it like tri-point. also tri point has a AWD mazdaspeed 3 so just take your cars up there and let them do it. :D now its back to the MSP section...

[clos561]

With 2010 MS3 coming up Lets hope Mazda doesn't pull a Subaru on us. Subaru; 'New design refreshed look 2008. Ok. Let's add 40hp a year later and make the suspension better. Mazda 'Redesign refreshed look. Ok. Let's add 37 hp to make 300hp and AWD for 2011-2012. This is the fear id have if i were to buy the 2010 ms3. I'd rather wait see what happens. What do you guys think?

theyve already said same powerplant. if it has more power it will be from simple intake and exhaust modding which we can do anyway.

[WTF MATE]

I wish they would stop making the MS3 already. They usually only make the speed vehicles for a short time. I figured it would have been a 1 or 2 year and done deal. They're f-ing up my resale value. Really though, I bought the car because of this hoping that the streets wouldn't be flooded with them, if this keeps up that's what's going to happen.

[boostdog]

It has to be all about pricing!

This vehicle's performance is crazy good for the price against nearly all competitors!

i agree ^^

you can basically look at it this way - our cars are priced sim. but with you lack of awd it allowed mazda to offer a heck of alot nicer interior / 6sp etc etc that you would have to give up in order to make the car at the same price. it's dollars and cents plain and simple. if i didn't need awd i prob. would have gotten an ms3.

[coololddude]

word from mazda is that the awd system in the MS3 is a DEAD issue. long live FWD!!!

[Olestra]

I wish they would stop making the MS3 already. They usually only make the speed vehicles for a short time. I figured it would have been a 1 or 2 year and done deal. They're f-ing up my resale value. Really though, I bought the car because of this hoping that the streets wouldn't be flooded with them, if this keeps up that's what's going to happen.

Get over it, you should have bought a Ferrari.

Mazda is brilliant in that they found a perfect spot in the market and they have proved that FWD is a very capable platform.

[happy and angry]

Yea, the streets are flooded with Mazdaspeed3's, man. What with the 5500 they bring the North America a year. I no longer feel like I'm part of an exclusive club, and that's what really matters.

[Nliiitend1]

(lol)

[WTF MATE]

Get over it, you should have bought a Ferrari.

Mazda is brilliant in that they found a perfect spot in the market and they have proved that FWD is a very capable platform.

Get over what. FWD vehicles aren't anything new or special. Mazda has had plenty of capable platforms, so has Honda, Mitsubishi and Toyota. I don't know what you think is so special about a fwd turbo platform. Dumbass.

[BlackCherry06]

If Mazda had spent the money to make the new MS3 AWD-compatible, it would be offered in 2010. They wouldn't have waited to add it next year.

As far as more hp next year, anything's possible. They COULD be planning to massage the 2.5 into a turbo engine and cross the 300hp mark. Personally, I could think of better things to drive than a 300hp M/T FWD car. But if you hesitate in anticipation of better things in years to come, you'll never buy a car.

[Olestra]

Get over what. FWD vehicles aren't anything new or special. Mazda has had plenty of capable platforms, so has Honda, Mitsubishi and Toyota. I don't know what you think is so special about a fwd turbo platform. Dumbass.

Reread post.
Get over the fact that you're worried your car isn't exclusive and the resale value is falling.
A. the resale value is still strong.
B. Cars depreciate. So either buy a bicycle or a ferrari if you're so worried.

My second comment was in regards to MS3 not being awd. It has nothing to do with me thinking that fwd turbo is "so special".

[Gmac03]

The only thing the 2010 will have that I will envy is better gearing and suspension.

Yup, thats big for me too. Chassis is a bit stiffer, thus better suspension and then the gearing is key too.

Gmac

[dizzin9]

why can't mazda just make an "sti" of a "wrx"?

[Sport6]

why can't mazda just make an "sti" of a "wrx"?

(deadhorse
They do, its called Mazdaspeed. Mazda 3 -> Mazdaspeed 3....

Not like Subaru took a FWD car and made it AWD. Why expect Mazda to do that to their econobox

[dizzin9]

(deadhorse
They do, its called Mazdaspeed. Mazda 3 -> Mazdaspeed 3....

Not like Subaru took a FWD car and made it AWD. Why expect Mazda to do that to their econobox

impreza > impreza wrx > impreza wrx sti

[Nliiitend1]

impreza > impreza wrx > impreza wrx sti

...all of which are AWD. What's your point?

[dizzin9]

that mazda should make like a "limited edition" MS3 AWD like only on 2012 or something. just like on my other car, the altima, it has an "SE-R" version for 05-06 only.

[Nliiitend1]

You're missing the point...

They'd have to change to a different drive layout to do what you're suggesting, whereas with the Impreza->WRX->STI and the Altima->Altima SE-R they used the same drive layout (AWD and FWD, repspectively).

[happy and angry]

why can't mazda just make an "sti" of a "wrx"?

God, for hundreds of reasons. You can fantasize all you want, but cars need to be made in the real world. With real world concerns. And real world limitations. And real world compromises made to bring products to market.

Right now is not a good time for excessive research and R&D when they already have a winning formula with this car. You can't just slap a new tranny and a rear end on a vehicle and say "TADA, RELIABLE AWD SYSTEM!" You need to find room for the rear drive shaft, retest the vehicle handling and readjust suspension, rework the ECU and the additional electronics you'll need to manage power in an AWD setup, and a whole laundry list of other things. And the costs will be passed on to us, the consumer.

Can they do it? Yes. Will they? Right now why bother other than to feed some childish fantasy on a message board? The current car is winning awards and magazine comparisons, forcing other automakers to respond to its presence in the marketplace, and most importantly, selling well. If they price themselves out of the market segment they are winning right now, they may not have a winning formula anymore. It's not worth the risk right now, and frankly I don't know that it ever would be. Incremental improvement in successful vehicles is how branding and identity are established for a vehicle, which is why 30 years after they were introduced the Civic and the Corolla still sell well and have a reputation for fuel economy and reliability and quality. Mazda taking steps to try and do the same with the Mazda3 is an intelligent thing to do. The Mazdaspeed3 is no different. We'll see a moonroof option, a bit of added weight (unfortunately), a small 5 HP increase which probably means a slightly fatter torque curve and a small improvement in power dropoff up around 6000rpm, some suspension and brake work (maybe). Another step down the right path.

Plus, competing with the STI and Evo market segment is not something a company without the same WRC pedigree like Mazda really wants to do right now. You throw the same half-assed AWD setup the Mazdaspeed6 had in the Mazdaspeed3 then line it up against two of the most technologically advanced AWD vehicles on the market with the sort of reputation those vehicles have and you will get killed. Or you pay out the ass to develop a new, good AWD system and push vehicle costs through the roof. Neither idea is smart, neither idea is likely.

If for some reason Mazda does do that, it won't be any time soon given how everyone is bleeding money and showing sales decreases. Maybe in a few years if markets bounce back we'll see a Mazdaspeed3 GTX, who knows? Anyone worried about it happening now or even any time soon is crazy.

[dizzin9]

You're missing the point...

They'd have to change to a different drive layout to do what you're suggesting, whereas with the Impreza->WRX->STI and the Altima->Altima SE-R they used the same drive layout (AWD and FWD, repspectively).

true.

[AWDthis]

How much more would be to add on an AWD or RWD system to a car? $2k?

[WTF MATE]

Reread post.
Get over the fact that you're worried your car isn't exclusive and the resale value is falling.
A. the resale value is still strong.
B. Cars depreciate. So either buy a bicycle or a ferrari if you're so worried.

My second comment was in regards to MS3 not being awd. It has nothing to do with me thinking that fwd turbo is "so special".

a. The resale value is still strong because the cars are brand freakin new. And really it's not that good. KBB resale is around 15k last time I looked, that's pretty shitty imo.
b. Cars depreciate yes. But a mazdaspeed protege still has a good resale value because they only made them for a half a year, same with the miata, etc. Excuse me for not wanting the streets flooded with ms3s like it is stis and evos.

I don't know what the hell your talking about with awd. Yes it's not awd, so what?

[Nliiitend1]

God, for hundreds of reasons. You can fantasize all you want, but cars need to be made in the real world. With real world concerns. And real world limitations. And real world compromises made to bring products to market.

Right now is not a good time for excessive research and R&D when they already have a winning formula with this car. You can't just slap a new tranny and a rear end on a vehicle and say "TADA, RELIABLE AWD SYSTEM!" You need to find room for the rear drive shaft, retest the vehicle handling and readjust suspension, rework the ECU and the additional electronics you'll need to manage power in an AWD setup, and a whole laundry list of other things. And the costs will be passed on to us, the consumer.

Can they do it? Yes. Will they? Right now why bother other than to feed some childish fantasy on a message board? The current car is winning awards and magazine comparisons, forcing other automakers to respond to its presence in the marketplace, and most importantly, selling well. If they price themselves out of the market segment they are winning right now, they may not have a winning formula anymore. It's not worth the risk right now, and frankly I don't know that it ever would be. Incremental improvement in successful vehicles is how branding and identity are established for a vehicle, which is why 30 years after they were introduced the Civic and the Corolla still sell well and have a reputation for fuel economy and reliability and quality. Mazda taking steps to try and do the same with the Mazda3 is an intelligent thing to do. The Mazdaspeed3 is no different. We'll see a moonroof option, a bit of added weight (unfortunately), a small 5 HP increase which probably means a slightly fatter torque curve and a small improvement in power dropoff up around 6000rpm, some suspension and brake work (maybe). Another step down the right path.

Plus, competing with the STI and Evo market segment is not something a company without the same WRC pedigree like Mazda really wants to do right now. You throw the same half-assed AWD setup the Mazdaspeed6 had in the Mazdaspeed3 then line it up against two of the most technologically advanced AWD vehicles on the market with the sort of reputation those vehicles have and you will get killed. Or you pay out the ass to develop a new, good AWD system and push vehicle costs through the roof. Neither idea is smart, neither idea is likely.

If for some reason Mazda does do that, it won't be any time soon given how everyone is bleeding money and showing sales decreases. Maybe in a few years if markets bounce back we'll see a Mazdaspeed3 GTX, who knows? Anyone worried about it happening now or even any time soon is crazy.


+1

[Sport6]

that mazda should make like a "limited edition" MS3 AWD like only on 2012 or something. just like on my other car, the altima, it has an "SE-R" version for 05-06 only.

Ya but that was also front wheel drive.


Seriously though if AWD is your fantasy you should have brought a different car from the start.

The chances of a car transferring its driveline to different wheels in a current car are slim to none.

If the car was changing its platform to a newer C1 or something completely different then there is a greater chance.

AWD cannot be an afterthought, it must be designed into the car from the start.

[Peter B]

^^ Over 9,000 Dollars!

[AWDthis]

Mazda 6 FWD -> mazdaspeed 6 AWD so whats the problem? Or atleast make another AWD Speed6! Id settle for RWD too :D

[Nliiitend1]

Mazda 6 FWD -> mazdaspeed 6 AWD so whats the problem? Or atleast make another AWD Speed6! Id settle for RWD too :D


You're forgetting that Ford already had their own version of the Mazda 6 (the Fusion) with an existing AWD system...

Besides, the AWD system in the MS6 sucks balls compared to the systems in the Subarus and EVOs.

[Matrix]

...Besides, the AWD system in the MS6 sucks balls compared to the systems in the Subarus and EVOs.


WHaaaat? I was under the impression that it worked very well. Only AWD when you need it, then disengaged when not needed. What's better than that? AWD launches + no AWD powertrain loss once up to speed = best of both worlds, yeah?

[PCspeed3]

Mazda would be wise to make a AWD hatch thats roughly comparable the evo or sti and still be around $30K. Oh and one more thing, It can look anything like the '10 MS3!!!(braindead

[AWDthis]

How can infiniti make the new G sedan only $2050 more expensive than the RWD model? If mazda could do this, well a $25,000 MS3 with AWD and far better interior, gearbox, handling than the WRX and Rallyart would simply dominate that segment.

[AWDthis]

You're forgetting that Ford already had their own version of the Mazda 6 (the Fusion) with an existing AWD system...

I thought the fusion shared with the mercury milan not with the 6, and aint the AWD on the fusion new? I didnt know it was offered when the Mazdaspeed6 was done..

[Sport6]

Man the threads about this are really annoying.


The only way this would ever happen is if the AWD system was shared across a few vehicles. Meaning that we would have to wait for the Focus RS to come over AND be AWD. Also having the C30 be awd (over here) and the S40 would help.

[Nliiitend1]

I thought the fusion shared with the mercury milan not with the 6, and aint the AWD on the fusion new? I didnt know it was offered when the Mazdaspeed6 was done..

The 1st gen Fusion/Milan/MKZ (Zephyr) do a lot of parts/platform sharing with the Mazda 6 (incidentally, the 2nd gen cars shar even MORE parts/dimensions).

The 1st gen Fusion/Milan/MKZ (Zephyr) use a slightly stretched Mazda 6 platform as their base. They've had an AWD option since 2007 model year, and it is the same basic system that the MS6 uses. I was wrong about it being available before the MS6, but you can be sure Ford/Mazda had plans to use that AWD system in more than just the MS6 when the MS6 was released, which was my point.

That being said, there is an AWD Volvo S40 that uses the C1 platform, but it is ALSO a crappy system that is primarily FWD until slippage is detected (and torque then becomes split up to 50/50) just like the system in the MS6/Fusion/Milan/MKZ.

The point is, they've got plenty of good reasons for NOT making the MS3 AWD, and I for one am happier to have FWD than to have a crappy pseudo-AWD system that adds a bunch of weight that I don't need 99% of the time.

[Nliiitend1]

How can infiniti make the new G sedan only $2050 more expensive than the RWD model? If mazda could do this, well a $25,000 MS3 with AWD and far better interior, gearbox, handling than the WRX and Rallyart would simply dominate that segment.

Because the development cost is going to be spread over way more units being sold than if Mazda were to make a limited-run range-topping specialty car. Also, adding AWD to a RWD platform generally presents less engineering problems than adding AWD to an existing FWD platform (not to mention the fact that the G was designed from the get-go with the plan to offer AWD and RWD versions).

[Nliiitend1]

WHaaaat? I was under the impression that it worked very well. Only AWD when you need it, then disengaged when not needed. What's better than that? AWD launches + no AWD powertrain loss once up to speed = best of both worlds, yeah?

Crappy front-bias, that's what's wrong with that. A rear-bias or 50/50 full-time system will likely outperform a front-bias system every time. Also, even thought you don't have powertrain losses due to rearward torque when only the front wheels are being driven doesn't mean
you're not wasting energy due to the unneeded rotation/drag of of unpowered drivetrain parts....plus there's the added weight of the system that further saps efficiency without adding any benefit (when it's not getting power, that is).

I'm not saying it's worthless. I'm just saying that I wouldn't likely buy a performance car that utilized that type of system. It's more suited to RAV4s, CR-Vs, and the type of cars that IJACs drive, IMO.