How does MS3's clutch point compare to that of other vehicles?

[Sergius64]

Was planning to buy a MS3 next week and finally got one of my friends to teach me stick yesterday... Lets just say that WV Gti with that DSG Automatic seems much more attractive all of the sudden.

My friends tell me that the car I practiced on (an older Subbie WRX) has a very small clutch point so thats why its harder to learn stick on it. But I would think that MS3 would have a very similar sized clutch point since they're both Japanese entry level sports cars.

So, any of you guys driven both? How do the clutch points compare? Did any of you get an MS3 as your first manual and how was the learning experience? Any advice? Obviously I had the most trouble starting from a stop, especially on a hill. The hand-brake hill start I couldn't get at all (bang). The rest I could, but with periodic stalling and I just don't see myself getting on a road in a manual car at this point. I'll be annoying everyone but starting super slow from stops, and periodic stalling.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Trying to learn stick shift on this car is not what i'd recommend.

The engage point is typically closer to the floor, but between judging your torque (on or off boost) and knowing when to shift, not to mention 1st and 2nd gear are so damn short, you may get frustrated easily with the car.

[clos561]

pretty much learned stick on this car. the engagement on this car is about 1/3 released and u feel it kick a bit. its probably a easier car to learn in since the clutch is so soft

[DaleNixon]

I learned stick on this car. It was pretty difficult, but I didn't know it. When I drove my wife's Civic Si months later, it was ridiculous how easy it was to get going and shift.

After about a week or two I was comfortable in traffic in the MS3.

[Peter B]

I had a about 2 hours of lessons on my budy's passat. That car was much easier to and smoother then the MS3.

After that it was trial by fire. Not the easiest stick to drive. A month or two after my lesson in the passat I had the same friend take my MS3 for a spin in the parking lot. He had trouble just getting the car to move. Stalled it 3 times off the bat and a few more as we cruised around the lot. The clutch on this car it tight. Been driving the MS3 every day since july and my first and second gear changes as well as starts are still jerky at times. Not easy but once you get it going its alot of fun.

Not sure if I would call the MS3 an 'entry level' sports car. The fact that the WRX and MS3 are both similar and both Japanese has little to do with their clutch as well. The clutch it tight for performance reasons. You don't want a sloppy clutch with alot of travel when ur racing.

[LukeP]

You drive enough stick cars they all seems the same after a while. The MS3's clutch is a little grabbier than most, but its the throttle tip in lag (drive by wire) that pisses me off more. When you have to jump up a hill from a red light, the tip in lag is the shits. Stalled it once because I have her the beans and swung off the clutch quick, but the engine never reacted to my throttle position in time, so it just died.

My civic would have already been screaming by the time my right foot nudged the pedal!

So either I have to use the handbrake all noob style so I have that extra second to build revs or I have to do some heel toe action to get the motor producing some power, or slip the clutch (which I hate doing) for that moment of delay.

[LOL WUT]

When the guy at the mazdaspeed dealer killed my car 2 times trying to pull it around front for me I couldn't help but laugh. I got in expecting it to be a pain in the ass to drive but it wasn't too hard to get used to. My previous car was a supercharged cobalt and besides the cobalt's clutch peddle being a lot softer I didn't think it was that much of a change.

[Peter B]

BTW, my first two weeks in this car i drove around like i was 90. It was hell. ...waving people around me everytime i stalled, stalling in intersections and stop lights. I would avoid traffic as much as possible as stop and go was the hardest thing in the world for me. But I got through it and im glad I did cause i love this car!

[clos561]

BTW, my first two weeks in this car i drove around like i was 90. It was hell. ...waving people around me everytime i stalled, stalling in intersections and stop lights. I would avoid traffic as much as possible as stop and go was the hardest thing in the world for me. But I got through it and im glad I did cause i love this car!

(chair) lol that would be embarassing

[happy and angry]

I wouldn't say it's easier or harder to learn on this car than any other, as it is a brand new skill to learn. It is, however, very unforgiving. The resistence of the clutch pedal isn't linear, for the first 2/3rds of the travel is fairly firm and it gets really light at the bottom. The transition point from firm travel to light travel is right around the friction point, too, and this can make it difficult to get a light touch. I've driven stick since I was 17 and first started driving, have probably logged 200,000 miles on 6 different vehicles (a '99 Civic, an '06 Cobalt, '86 OJ White Bronco, '97 Saturn LS1, '07 Mazda 3, '07 Mazdaspeed3) plus driving friends cars here and there plus a few work trucks out on my uncle's farm, and this car still gives me an unwanted shudder or two, especially when cold, but that just tells me I can get better at controlling the clutch.

The advice I can give you for learning any car is to start it moving under idle throttle a few times from a stop to get used to where the friction point is. Just clutch out slowly until it starts to bite and roll forward without any gas at all, and either hold it or very slowly release the clutch as it starts to roll forward. You'll get it rolling at maybe 3 or 4 mph without any throttle input, and start learning where that friction point is. It's sort of important.

Being able to get to that point and hold it without thinking about it is the key to hill starts, for example. If you're good you can hold onto the brake at a stop light on a hill and when it turns green, come out on the clutch right to the friction point, come off the brake and get lightly on the gas as you feather the clutch out and not roll back much at all. You effectively do the same thing with the hand brake, holding the car in place as you partially engage the clutch so you can release the brake and get rolling.

As a new stick driver there are a lot of skills you should learn, like proper downshifting (rev matching), how to handle hills (both up or down), how to read traffic ahead of you well enough so that you're always in the right gear, how shifting slow can be fast and why shifting fast can be slow. These skills become second nature, after a while, and you can learn them on any car. The clutch and the friction point of any vehicle is really a very small hurdle in learning to drive, because once you learn it you've got it (with minor adjustments) for almost any car you'll ever drive. Might take you a week, no matter the car. The bigger, more important, more difficult things to learn might take you years and thousands of miles. I wouldn't worry about the clutch so much. If driving stick intimidates you or you think you won't be happy driving stick, don't get the car. If you're willing to deal with the early awkwardness, go for it.

[jezterr]

it's the grabbiest clutch i've ever driven to the point where i thought there was a problem - turns out my experience with zippy cars is just limited. i'd think someone learning how to drive stick in this would get annoyed pretty quick, though.

[Hank3]

I'm going on seven months of owning the car and I still will shift roughly a few times here and there throughout the week. It engages later than any other MT car I've ever driven.

[Kain]

This is the advice I give anyone learning to drive stick: go get yourself a beater for <$1,000, no point burning the clutch on a new car prematurely.

[UHATEIT]

This clutch on this car doesn't grab as easily as other cars I've drievn before either, It not as crappy as a 350Z clutch, but not as nice as the clutch on my old 91 MR2. That bitch grabbed and pulled forward smoothly, while I always have to give this car some gas off the start so the car wont stall. A lower clutch ngagement point on this car would be great!

On the 350z, there was a way to actually LOWER the engagement point so that it would start to pull at a lower lift off the pedal. It was very simple, just required you to loosen this small piece on the back of the pedal and did a world for comfortability! I will check out the clutch pedal on this car and look if there is any qay to adjust the pedal engagement point on it. I would imagine it would be possible like it was on the 350z, but I havent yet looked.

Has anyone by chance checked out the pedal on the MS3 and seen anyway to adjust it?

[ericm]

I've been driving since 1975 and most of my cars have been manuals.

The MS3 clutch isn't the worst I have driven, but it's not the best (the Miata would be the best). The engagement point is kind of narrow, and the feel is not as good as the Miata's. I've driven much worse but that's because I have driven firetrucks and old school buses... and my old Eclipse.

The handbrake start on a hill isn't a "newbie" move, it's the best way to do it.

If the OP isn't comfortable with a manual, the MS3 is probably not the best manual car to drive.

OTOH, VW's DSG is awesome. But you need to know what you are about there, and it wants a handbrake start on a hill too. It's not happy with rolling back. But the handbrake start is easily mastered.

[coyfish]

Ive driven a 2002 subaru wrx and I found it easier to drive than my speed.

Some cars are easier than other but sounds to me like you just need to practice. With what I know now and if I were to go back and learn stick I would simply practice letting the clutch touch the engagement point in and out. On a flat surface you can get the car rolling in 1st without touching the gas pedal. You can feel the car "grab" when the clutch his the engagement point and you will roll slightly.

Get used to this and it should make your life easier when you apply gas.

[UHATEIT]

when I was mentioning the clutch pedal height adjustment for a Nissan 350Z, here is the diagram of how to do that on that car. I assume that doing something SIMILAR to our car would also be an option. Just required a simply turn/adjustment of a knob on the back of the pedal, who knows, maybe it can be just as easy on our car. Ima check it out later today. Anyways here is the diagram:

http://pics.montypics.com/Gcoupe35/2004-11-12/1100318485_Cl05_psd.jpg

[DublinDapper]

Wow, I couldn't even imagine trying to learn stick in this car. My Girlfriend hates driving it shes only been drivin stick a year, car scares the poop outta her!

[LukeP]

Anyone else notice that the clutch gets less grabby as the car heats up, and then some hard driving makes it more forgiving? I don't mean slipping the clutch or hard launches, just spirited stuff.

[Sergius64]

Ive driven a 2002 subaru wrx and I found it easier to drive than my speed.

Some cars are easier than other but sounds to me like you just need to practice. With what I know now and if I were to go back and learn stick I would simply practice letting the clutch touch the engagement point in and out. On a flat surface you can get the car rolling in 1st without touching the gas pedal. You can feel the car "grab" when the clutch his the engagement point and you will roll slightly.

Get used to this and it should make your life easier when you apply gas.

Yeah, well I was able to do that most of the time. Just if I tried to go too quick (still much slower then I would be expected to on the street), it would stall. And on a little hill I was still stalling 1 out of 3 times. So I'm just not sure about buying it at this point because I don't think I could get it home safely.

Oh well, at least out of that 1.5 hour session we only smelled the transmission once, so I know I wasn't screwing up TOO badly.

The reason I was planning to buy a MS3 in the first place is cause I have a Mazda3 and I LOVE it. So ever since they came out with a Mazdaspeed version I wanted it. Of course I wasn't financially ready to switch until now and the ugly ass 2010 version is looming on the horizon, so thats why I've been planning to buy it so quick. If I don't buy a MS3 I'll probably just sit on my Mazda, I've got no real reason to buy any other new car.

[MS3Pilot]

IMO Learn to drive stick on any car, they all take a certain amount of getting used to. With that said, I think that the clutch in the MS3 might be a bit harder to learn on. It seems to be more like an on/off switch than most of the cars I've driven, including my friends 06 WRX.

[happy and angry]

Anyone else notice that the clutch gets less grabby as the car heats up, and then some hard driving makes it more forgiving? I don't mean slipping the clutch or hard launches, just spirited stuff.I find that true about everything in this car. I'm not sure if it's fluids getting up to temperature or lines warming up a bit or what, but when it's cold the clutch and brakes are a bloody on/off switch, and I am positively anal about avoiding unnecessary clutch wear so I don't think it's me partially glazing the thing every drive.

I was actually paying attention to throttle response today, by the way. Normally I just drive, don't think much about it, but you're right about throttle lag. I've just been adjusting for it when I drive I guess, but now it's going to drive me up the wall on track or at an autocross now that I am consciously aware of it.

[tiagotiago]

The MS3's clutch isn't the easiest one I've encountered, and it will take you a bit of time to get used to it; in any case give yourself a few weeks and you should be doing allright. By already haven driven a stick shift (even if for a little while) you should now know the basic do's and dont's.

[DaleNixon]

This is the advice I give anyone learning to drive stick: go get yourself a beater for <$1,000, no point burning the clutch on a new car prematurely.

(ugh)(nailbyt)(stash)(eekdance)

[Hank3]

IMO Learn to drive stick on any car, they all take a certain amount of getting used to. With that said, I think that the clutch in the MS3 might be a bit harder to learn on. It seems to be more like an on/off switch than most of the cars I've driven, including my friends 06 WRX.

That's a great way of putting it. I was trying to find words earlier to describe it, but this is pretty accurate for me so far during my ownership of this car.

[Saskatchewan17]

Yeah the MS3 is my first car and first manual car. The clutch is pretty darn stiff and hard to work. I must have stalled it around 20 times the first day we got it. It is a horrid car to learn on, but once you do everything seems incredibly easy. I drove my friend's 2000 Civic EX and I could be really sloppy and careless with the clutch and the car wouldn't even jerk or shudder at all. If I were doing the same on the MS3 it wouldn't be so compliant.

The clutch is rather stiff and hard to get used to. After stalling the car a few times I just said, "I quit! Should have got a DSG GTI!" You feel this way after driving it the first few times. I've never stalled in the middle of traffic though. Just in neighborhoods, when I was trying to park in spaces I wouldn't know how to modulate the clutch to have the car rolling and I would just kill it half way into a parking spot. But now I'm pretty much flawless, just a little jerky when trying to get up and go really fast, or when the car is cold as ice. The only thing I have to learn is heel toeing.

Trust me the car is so worth getting over how to learn to drive stick. Get a friend with a Honda Fit or little econobox and go to a parking lot and just practice practice practice. The MS3 is such a great car, and gets sooooooooo much easier to drive after only a few days.

BTW Hills are a problem on all manuals. At the beginning just pull the E-brake and do the whole pendulum thing to get the car rolling, and once it starts pulling let off the E-brake. You will get the hang of just letting the clutch out when the light turns green and once off the brake the car will hold so you can get on the gas and go. Easy peasy after a little practice.

[hyperpm]

I also own an S2000 so based on that, clutch in MS3 doesn't seem as linear and as someone said, engagement point is narrow. Throws are quite long and seem imprecise sometimes. Took me awhile to get used it and sometimes find myself focusing more than normal when taking off from light. This is one negative I can think of for this car and actually had buyers remorse the first week since I was so used to S2000 tranny.

[Sawce]

The clutch does take some getting used to. It's not as forgiving as my 03 BMW was, but it is fairly similar to my '02 WRX. I've found from my experience that 1500-1800 rpm is a good launch point on flat surfaces while 2k- ish works on inclines depending on the severity of the grade.
Empty parking lots are great places to practice for clutch/fine control much like motorcycle drills. (bike)

[BillTheCat]

Things about this clutch have been summed up well so far. The on/off switch metaphor is the perfect way to convey how small the friction point is on the clutch. That makes it harder to launch in a civil manner, but makes the clutch much better able to handle hard launches. Takes some practice & focus to launch the car in a "normal" way, but we all learn to do it.

To the OP: Have you driven the GTI w/ DSG? I mean, really gotten into it? I told the VW salesman that I'd feel a lot better about buying the car if I could drive it like a bat out of hell for a few minutes to get a feel for the transmission and suspension. (They had no manual transmission models on the lot) And I was a little underwhelmed by it.

In manual mode, the "flappy paddle gearbox," as Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear likes to call it, is just awkward. I suppose I could get used to it, but there's a slight delay between pressing the paddle & the actual gearshift, and you're forced to keep your hands in the exact same spot on the wheel at all times. And while you shouldn't be shifting gears during a turn, it could be distracting to find that you need to, and then have to find the blasted flappy paddle while not wandering out of your lane or off the road.

In auto mode, I found it sluggish. I mean, it just felt like stepping on a warm turd. My old 2001 VW Golf 1.8T had more balls than the '09 GTI DSG(but it was manual shift, too).

In sport mode, it felt like stepping on a warm turd that just wouldn't shift until darned near redline under any circumstances. I would have expected it to adjust the shift point based on throttle position. 20% throttle should not produce redline shifts, but it darned sure seemed to.

I love the engineering behind the DSG. It's a wonderfully elegant piece of machinery. But, at least in VW's case, the execution seems to need some improving. The other consideration with a DSG is that it is, literally, 2 transmissions in one. 1 transmission handles the odd gears, and one handles the evens. So if it ever breaks down, it could be hella pricey to fix, and I'm not sure my local AAMCO would be able to handle it. I say let someone else beta test the DSG for a few years, let them fine tune it, and let the mechanics learn how to work on it.

If, however, you like the GTI and can't get over the MS3 clutch grabbiness, I would try testing the GTI 6-speed. Most of VW's clutches are fairly forgiving.

[jezterr]

paddle shifters suck. if it wasn't for them, the isf would be my dream car.

[BillTheCat]

LONG POST ALERT

Oh, and while I am at it... a technique that my Dad used to teach me to drive stick, which I have in turn used to teach several others. Mind you, this is hell on a clutch, but hard launches over the course of a few years of spirited driving will cause far more wear than an hour or two doing this...

Get the MS3 into a big empty parking lot with no bumpstops. Level pavement, no obstacles, no other cars. Practice a no-throttle launch. First, just work on releasing the clutch ONLY to the point where you start to hear the engine react & the car just barely lurches forward, by a fraction of an inch, then press it back in. Repeat several times to learn the engagement point. You'll begin to notice you can feel the engine faintly thru the pedal as the clutch engages.

Next, start launching the car with no throttle. You just ease the clutch out, as slowly as you possibly can. When you hit the friction point, make the movement painfully slow. Let the engine slowly accelerate the car until the clutch is fully disengaged. You'll creep along at 2-3mph. Press the clutch in again, step on the brake, and repeat. You may very well stall the car out a few times before you manage to release the clutch slowly enough to let the engine idle get the car moving on its own.

Do this over & over until you develop a strong feel for where the clutch engages, and how "wide" the friction point is- that is, the amount of pedal travel between where it first starts to grab, and where the car is no longer accelerating forward, but just cruising.

Once you get that, continue launching with no throttle for a few more attempts, but now, after the car is rolling, gently press the throttle to get it up to 10-15mph, and practice shifting into 2nd gear. For someone new to manual transmissions, the 1st gear launch & a rolling shift between gears are 2 completely different experiences. Don't even get into 3rd gear right now. Want to keep speeds slow so there's no worry about running into anything in the parking lot. Just work on the shift from 1st to 2nd, and applying that touch of throttle pressure that makes it smooth.

Once you get the idea behind that touch of throttle that makes 1st to 2nd smooth, start launching in 1st with a touch of throttle as well. You'll start to find that "sweet spot" and learn to press the throttle early enough to avoid stalling, but late enough that you're not revving the engine to redline while the clutch is still enganged.

Once you master the no-throttle launch, 1st-to-2nd, and then the normal throttled launch, it's smooth sailing. You'll be thinking consciously about throttle & clutch movements, and gear shift selections for a few miles, but after you drive for a few weeks, it starts to become semi-automatic in your brain. After a few months, you'll hardly think about it at all. From that point, as you move from car to car, it's just a matter of adjusting your driving habits to each clutch- how far off the floor does it engange, how wide is the friction point, etc.

Some of the people I taught with this method have been those who were scared out of their wits of a manual transmission, and not one of them failed to master it. Some of them have been impatient & wanted to get out of the parking lot after 5 minutes, but they were the confident ones who were ready for the challenge of learning on public roads. Either way, whether you spend 15 minutes or an hour or two, it's a good intro to recognizing clutch feel & getting clutch & throttle coordinated.

And don't ever be afraid to use the e-brake to assist on an uphill launch. Just press the clutch in & hold it, put the car in 1st gear & leave it there, and keep your foot on the brake. Pull the e-brake handle & keep your hand on it. When the light turns green, remember how you felt for the friction point on the no-throttle launch. But use the throttle, with a little more gas (for going uphill) than normal, and the second you start to feel the clutch engange, drop the e-brake, give a little more throttle to get you going, & move your right hand back to the gear shift. Once you are moving, shifting into 2nd gear is no different than any other normal driving conditions.

[LukeP]

I've summed up the MS3 this way on a similar thread before;

easy to drive fast
hard to drive smooth

[boostdog]

I wouldn't say it's easier or harder to learn on this car than any other, as it is a brand new skill to learn. It is, however, very unforgiving. The resistence of the clutch pedal isn't linear, for the first 2/3rds of the travel is fairly firm and it gets really light at the bottom. The transition point from firm travel to light travel is right around the friction point, too, and this can make it difficult to get a light touch. I've driven stick since I was 17 and first started driving, have probably logged 200,000 miles on 6 different vehicles (a '99 Civic, an '06 Cobalt, '86 OJ White Bronco, '97 Saturn LS1, '07 Mazda 3, '07 Mazdaspeed3) plus driving friends cars here and there plus a few work trucks out on my uncle's farm, and this car still gives me an unwanted shudder or two, especially when cold, but that just tells me I can get better at controlling the clutch.

The advice I can give you for learning any car is to start it moving under idle throttle a few times from a stop to get used to where the friction point is. Just clutch out slowly until it starts to bite and roll forward without any gas at all, and either hold it or very slowly release the clutch as it starts to roll forward. You'll get it rolling at maybe 3 or 4 mph without any throttle input, and start learning where that friction point is. It's sort of important.

Being able to get to that point and hold it without thinking about it is the key to hill starts, for example. If you're good you can hold onto the brake at a stop light on a hill and when it turns green, come out on the clutch right to the friction point, come off the brake and get lightly on the gas as you feather the clutch out and not roll back much at all. You effectively do the same thing with the hand brake, holding the car in place as you partially engage the clutch so you can release the brake and get rolling.

As a new stick driver there are a lot of skills you should learn, like proper downshifting (rev matching), how to handle hills (both up or down), how to read traffic ahead of you well enough so that you're always in the right gear, how shifting slow can be fast and why shifting fast can be slow. These skills become second nature, after a while, and you can learn them on any car. The clutch and the friction point of any vehicle is really a very small hurdle in learning to drive, because once you learn it you've got it (with minor adjustments) for almost any car you'll ever drive. Might take you a week, no matter the car. The bigger, more important, more difficult things to learn might take you years and thousands of miles. I wouldn't worry about the clutch so much. If driving stick intimidates you or you think you won't be happy driving stick, don't get the car. If you're willing to deal with the early awkwardness, go for it.

best advice so far!

OP if you haven't driven a stick in the past you won't know the difference but here are some more tips for ya...did this for my cousin and she was off and driving in like 10 min.

take some time before even trying to drive the car getting used to where the clutch engauges w/o using the gas pedal. these cars have enough tq to get themselves moving w/o the aid of the gas pedal. you soon and quickly see where the clutch engauges...this is important and will help you not roll back into people and burn out at ever light. once you get the hang of this try using a little bit of gas slowly to move the car faster ( go slow !! ) do this several times until your comfortable.

honestly my cousin had my car down pat and was driving around our neighbor hood in just a few minutes.


Edit: sorry i didn't see that Billthecat pretty much summed up what i was stating as well.

[LukeP]

Whenever I'm teaching someone to drive stick, its always on a beater. Then I usually tell them "This is what I want you to do. Mash the gas pedal until it sounds like the engine is screaming and then drop the clutch."

"really?"

"Yes."

wrrRRRRRR Chirp-chirp-chirp VVvvvvvrrrrooom!

Then they're eyes light up like they get it.

Then I slow it down from there.

[meicalnissyen]

You drive enough stick cars they all seems the same after a while. The MS3's clutch is a little grabbier than most, but its the throttle tip in lag (drive by wire) that pisses me off more. When you have to jump up a hill from a red light, the tip in lag is the shits. Stalled it once because I have her the beans and swung off the clutch quick, but the engine never reacted to my throttle position in time, so it just died.

My civic would have already been screaming by the time my right foot nudged the pedal!

So either I have to use the handbrake all noob style so I have that extra second to build revs or I have to do some heel toe action to get the motor producing some power, or slip the clutch (which I hate doing) for that moment of delay.
My first car was 11 years old when I got it. 223ci straight six in a 64 ford custom. huge gap between 1rst and 2nd. launching was easy though

my corolla was butter at least stock, and I could adjust the pedal point with the linkage. I have it VERY high and the brake VERY low.. I can cover the brake with the ball on my big toe and catch the throttle with my little toe. and when talking on the cell , drinking coffee shifting and streering with my left knee I can dip the clutch just flexing my ankle. tougher to shift by far with the alumflyand pully and stage trhee crap clutch
the MS3 is tough for a stock carlaunch is easy but 1-2 takes thought, which brings me to the drive by wire. I think lukep may be on to something the DBW lag may be why the 1-2 is unsmooth at times

[meicalnissyen]

LONG POST ALERT

Oh, and while I am at it... a technique that my Dad used to teach me to drive stick, which I have in turn used to teach several others. Mind you, this is hell on a clutch, but hard launches over the course of a few years of spirited driving will cause far more wear than an hour or two doing this...



And don't ever be afraid to use the e-brake to assist on an uphill launch. Just press the clutch in & hold it, put the car in 1st gear & leave it there, and keep your foot on the brake. Pull the e-brake handle & keep your hand on it. When the light turns green, remember how you felt for the friction point on the no-throttle launch. But use the throttle, with a little more gas (for going uphill) than normal, and the second you start to feel the clutch engange, drop the e-brake, give a little more throttle to get you going, & move your right hand back to the gear shift. Once you are moving, shifting into 2nd gear is no different than any other normal driving conditions.

Nice job, and I did esstially the same with my kid (never passed the LP test, but I tried)

since you are old (experienced) like me, what is your comparative impression on this cars feel?

[happy and angry]

Edit: sorry i didn't see that Billthecat pretty much summed up what i was stating as well.First I tell him to do slow no-throttle starts into gear, then BillTheCat does it, then you do it, and then you apologize to Bill for rhyme biting. :(

I am sad.

[LukeP]

I think lukep may be on to something the DBW lag may be why the 1-2 is unsmooth at times

Only way I can keep it smooth is by not lifting on the throttle. I ease a bit, we're talking tiny increments though, but not lifting completely like I would in a cable driven car.

No lifting, no lag. The revs don't jump like they do in a cable-throttle car, but they don't drop either. If you shift fast enough it feels firm but right. If I lift off completely, then tipping in doesnt register quick enough and it feels 'wrong'.

[clos561]

I've been driving since 1975 and most of my cars have been manuals.

The MS3 clutch isn't the worst I have driven, but it's not the best (the Miata would be the best). The engagement point is kind of narrow, and the feel is not as good as the Miata's. I've driven much worse but that's because I have driven firetrucks and old school buses... and my old Eclipse.

The handbrake start on a hill isn't a "newbie" move, it's the best way to do it.

If the OP isn't comfortable with a manual, the MS3 is probably not the best manual car to drive.

OTOH, VW's DSG is awesome. But you need to know what you are about there, and it wants a handbrake start on a hill too. It's not happy with rolling back. But the handbrake start is easily mastered.

i have to use my handbrake all the time to get going on a hill. Retards get so close if i dont id roll back and hit them before i could engage the clutch to move

[Nliiitend1]

Only way I can keep it smooth is by not lifting on the throttle. I ease a bit, we're talking tiny increments though, but not lifting completely like I would in a cable driven car.

No lifting, no lag. The revs don't jump like they do in a cable-throttle car, but they don't drop either. If you shift fast enough it feels firm but right. If I lift off completely, then tipping in doesnt register quick enough and it feels 'wrong'.

I think you guys are crazy. (screwy)

My car exhibits no more throttle tip-in lag than just about any car I've ever driven with a cable operated throttle plate... (dunno)

[ericm]

LONG POST ALERT

etc. Do what he said.

As for the DSG, it takes a while to get used to it. I didn't like my wife's R32 for quite a while but it's been growing on me. It's not a manual, and it's not an automatic (although it will pretend if you put it in auto mode).

It's not perfect though-
The paddles should be on the column instead of the wheel. You can't find them when you are turning the wheel. I use the floor shifter when I am in the twisties. Shifts are faster than manual but are not instant, so you need to account for that. There needs to be an auto mode between "drive" and "sport". Or better, a knob to adjust how agressive the auto mode is.

VW just replaces any trans that has a problem. Presumeably they get sent back to engineering and inspected to figure out what went wrong.

[LukeP]

I think you guys are crazy. (screwy)

My car exhibits no more throttle tip-in lag than just about any car I've ever driven with a cable operated throttle plate... (dunno)

You sure?

Like even just when its sitting in neutral, if I blip the throttle, my foot can be off the gas pedal and resting on the ground before the engine RPM's move. I complained to the dealer and asked for a reflash or ECU update but they want to charge me.

[Nliiitend1]

I'm sure.

Even with a physical cable connection, there is lag between when you put your foot down (and therefore open the throttle plate) and when the engine speed actually rises, as it takes time for the added air to reach the cylinder. I don't think that it's any worse on this car than any other otherwise similar car...

A lot of this has as much to do with flywheel weight and the mass of the rotating assembly than anything else (i.e., the heavier these components are, the more throttle tip-in lag)...

[LukeP]

Yeah there is a little bit of that on cable cars but its so minute compared to this. It feels especially flagrant on this car to me. I could repeatedly 'tap' the gas pedal in my old civic and it would start to sound like its stalling, which was funny, but it never had that long of a delay especially gear to gear. In the MS3 it's noticable, I get negative engine torque switching through gears if I don't stay on it all the way through the shift. Everything I drive when I get out of the MS3 makes me take notice of how responsive their throttles are (except for the newer van at work, which also is drive by wire).

Its like driving over a latent DSL connection. Instead of "hey I shot you thats BS" its "Hey I was on the gas, wtf".

[Nliiitend1]

Your Civic likely had a much less massive flywheel than the MS3's dual-mass unit, plus it's a smaller engine to begin with with less mass in the rotational assembly. I'd say those things have more to do the difference than anything else.

[LukeP]

The MS3 has a huge flywheel? Yeah that could be it. I thought it had something resonably normal in there. I wonder why I don't see this mod very often....I see a lot of engine mount stuff maybe thats part of it. The engine rocks causing a delay, plus the huge flywheel it has to turn....things are starting to make sense.

[Nliiitend1]

Well I didn't exactly say it was huge...It's just probably substantially more massive than a sub-2.0 liter Civic's single-mass unit.

I believe somebody makes a lightweight conventional unit for the MS3/MS6, but I don't know many details about it...

[mckraut]

The advice I can give you for learning any car is to start it moving under idle throttle a few times from a stop to get used to where the friction point is. Just clutch out slowly until it starts to bite and roll forward without any gas at all, and either hold it or very slowly release the clutch as it starts to roll forward. You'll get it rolling at maybe 3 or 4 mph without any throttle input, and start learning where that friction point is. It's sort of important.

I believe this to be good advice. I've taught 3 people how to drive manual and this is how I teach every time. After you get the feel for the clutch and where it lets out, then integrate the gas pedal as well.

[meicalnissyen]

I'm sure.

Even with a physical cable connection, there is lag between when you put your foot down (and therefore open the throttle plate) and when the engine speed actually rises, as it takes time for the added air to reach the cylinder. I don't think that it's any worse on this car than any other otherwise similar car...

A lot of this has as much to do with flywheel weight and the mass of the rotating assembly than anything else (i.e., the heavier these components are, the more throttle tip-in lag)...
truth here, I scared the shit outta myself when i cold cranked the rolla after )another) three day clutch job starter spun it mad fast

difference? somethin like 19 lb off the crank with a fidanza flywheel and obx pulley

[meicalnissyen]

The MS3 has a huge flywheel? Yeah that could be it. I thought it had something resonably normal in there. I wonder why I don't see this mod very often....I see a lot of engine mount stuff maybe thats part of it. The engine rocks causing a delay, plus the huge flywheel it has to turn....things are starting to make sense.
jink=jank

cure?
hard mounts and a fidanza


course the cabin vibes will start some obscure rattle (lol2)

[hugador]

Well, here's a way you can find the friction point on a MS3. When your at a stop with your foot on the brake paddle, pull back the clutch and level it with the brake paddle and there's your friction point about right there. Let go of the brake and accelerate while you let go the clutch slowly. And you'll move as if the car is an atomatic. Keep doing this and you'll find the friction point a lot faster.

[Sergius64]

I had another lesson yesterday night with another friend's Mustang GT. We actually drove on the streets and stuff. It doesn't seem impossible anymore, but I seemed to be a lot worse at getting it to start from a stop when there's some other car behind me. I guess I have performance anxiety (sad2)

Good news is that I didn't get honked on the entire night even though I was stalling 3x times in front of some people. Bad news is that I almost rolled back into a car behind me after stalling 2 times and forgetting to put my foot back on the brake. If my friend wasn't in the car to remind me about the brake I probably would have rolled back into it.

[Silver Ecstasy]

You wanna know what helps driving this car? A motor mount! I'm in heaven after this morning's install.

[LukeP]

I had another lesson yesterday night with another friend's Mustang GT. We actually drove on the streets and stuff. It doesn't seem impossible anymore, but I seemed to be a lot worse at getting it to start from a stop when there's some other car behind me. I guess I have performance anxiety (sad2)

Good news is that I didn't get honked on the entire night even though I was stalling 3x times in front of some people. Bad news is that I almost rolled back into a car behind me after stalling 2 times and forgetting to put my foot back on the brake. If my friend wasn't in the car to remind me about the brake I probably would have rolled back into it.

Thats why people usually get a beater to practice on. If anyone's got an old car they don't mind you beatin' on for a while, then drive that, and I mean drive it alot. Like anything else you need to practice. Drive for hours and hours and day. I just recently had a friend start driving stick and there's no way in hell I'd let him drive my MS3!

[BillTheCat]

Nice job, and I did esstially the same with my kid (never passed the LP test, but I tried)

since you are old (experienced) like me, what is your comparative impression on this cars feel?

Are you referring to just the clutch feel, or my overall driving impression? I'm coming up on 6 months of ownership, and was planning to write up a sort of overall review in a few days.

[meicalnissyen]

Are you referring to just the clutch feel, or my overall driving impression? I'm coming up on 6 months of ownership, and was planning to write up a sort of overall review in a few days.

the clutch, but I'm interested in what you think overall

[Jasnall]

I hate the clutch in this car. I did Valet for 2 years and I dont remember any clutch being worse other than a 1960 chevy truck. Mine is stiff, feels like it engages at about 1/2-3/4 of the way out and has no give. When it catches it catches. Trying to drive this car when you're tired or lazy is annoying.
But my friend with a same year MS3 says my cluthc is stiffer then his and doesn't like it so i dunno. Ya its stock.
Love the car, hate the clutch and gear box.

[karl hungus]

it's frustrating but it's my clutch. i won't let anyone drive my ms3 for fear of f'ing up my clutch.

[dandydaniel]

learned how to drive stick on this car. i've only let 3 people drive my car. 2 of them LITERALLY learned how to drive a car on a standard and the both killed my car numerous times before even getting out of the parking spot. and then comes my girlfriend who drives a beat ass 200sx in a 5spd, who has NO idea what the hell single clutch downshifts, or heel-toeing or even what the hell a quarter mile time is, and she drove the car like she was the owner of it. it was ridiculous. so the point of my story is that anyone can drive the ms3, it just might be different for people.

[hyperpm]

speaking of heel toeing, its quite difficult to do it on this car since center tunnel gets in the way of right leg/calf.

[Nliiitend1]

speaking of heel toeing, its quite difficult to do it on this car since center tunnel gets in the way of right leg/calf.

Just use the sides of your feet...

[MS3Pilot]

Hit the gas and brake at the same time with your foot, it's not hard and "heel toe" shifts are not usually "heel toe anyway".

PS. My buddy who has an STI stalled my car 3 times the first time he drove it, then drove it like he owned it...like I said, every stick takes a few minutes to get used to and then almost anyone can drive it fine.

[Ajburr]

I learned on a friend's old civic hatch, had around 5-6 hours of seat time when I test drove my speed3, I probably still looked like a noob test driving it but I didn't stall or anything ;).

[ras]

Have also owned the car for several months, it is not the easiest car to drive. I at first thought it was me not driving a manual in a few years, had a buddy take it for a ride and he had problems with it also. He drives a Civic SI. Called the the dealer about the notchiness, and was told i wasn't the only one that complained about it. Love driving it though, but have driven smoother ones through the years.

[Sergius64]

Hey guys, OP here. This is the result of all my bitchin:

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs035.snc1/2600_660052053267_3612093_41567050_7933656_n.jpg

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs035.snc1/2600_660052063247_3612093_41567051_814662_n.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs035.snc1/2600_660052068237_3612093_41567052_3379432_n.jpg

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs035.snc1/2600_660052073227_3612093_41567053_3017037_n.jpg

So if you live around Carlsbad and see me driving around, please don't pull up to close to me on stop lights and intersections. I still stall 15% of the time, and most of the rest of the time the car ends up jumping of the line and goes hopping for a bit.

[Saskatchewan17]

Haha, congrats on the purchase man! Trust me you get much much much better. It becomes automatic, you shift down and up and work the clutch without even thinking about it after a while.

[Nliiitend1]

Congrats on the new car! (thumb)

[happy and angry]

Like I've said before, you'll get better at the physical muscle memory side of driving stick pretty quick, it's the other stuff you need to pick up at some point. You ever need advice or a little learnin' on rev matching downshifts or keeping it in gear in corners or how to take advantage of some of the perks of a manual in traffic, don't be afraid to ask.

Congrats on the sweet ride, man.

[DaleNixon]

Master engine braking to the point where the guy behind you wonders if your brake lights even work!