Dashhawk log - Nasty KR in 3rd??

[TheRealDefman]

Finally got some logs today, and they show what I feel (and see in the alert) that I have nasty amounts of KR in 3rd. Thoughts on why? Mod's listed in my sig, 93 octane gas.

Screen caps and actual logs from 3rd & 4th (separate pulls) attached.

Thanks!

[SPEED3TYPE2]

The second pic 1.4 kr is nothing, but the first one OH CRAP! 7.5 knock retard puls you got that dangerous super lean spot beteween 3-4k thats where everbodies engine is blowing and thats wher your knock is, you bettrer get an cp-e standback asap and add a bunch of fuel in that area befroe she blows... Or add fuel some other way if you know of another way to...

[dread]

It could be related to you loading the car up at 2500 rpm's. You can see how lean you are when you get the worst knock retard I have ever seen at WOT. Did you hear pinging. I don't suggest doing WOT runs with KR like that. I would say put the stock tmic on and see what happens.

[TheRealDefman]

It could be related to you loading the car up at 2500 rpm's. You can see how lean you are when you get the worst knock retard I have ever seen at WOT.
I'm not seeing the lean condition, help me understand that. I did mean start the pull at 3000-3500, I agree that I hit WOT at too low of an RPM.


Did you hear pinging.
Couldn't hear it, but damned sure felt it... it just stopped pulling.


I would say put the stock tmic on and see what happens.
You know, the KR has been more active since adding the SU TMIC.

[Sport6]

Try to get the one step colder plugs.. What spring do you have on your forge?

Also when you felt it did you see any puffs of black out of the tailpipe?

[acidbbg]

Finally got some logs today, and they show what I feel (and see in the alert) that I have nasty amounts of KR in 3rd. Thoughts on why? Mod's listed in my sig, 93 octane gas.

Screen caps and actual logs from 3rd & 4th (separate pulls) attached.

Thanks!

You are very lean down low.

I would not suggest you going into boost with that much knock happening.

It wasn't until your a/f hit 11's before the knock began to subside.

I would def suggest getting ems to richen up that mixture.

Based on the datalog it does not seem that you need the upgraded cdfp.

You should def re-check all clamps and such and make sure you do not have any leaks.

I would even go as far as to suggest you getting the TMIC pressure tested.

-C

[TheRealDefman]

Try to get the one step colder plugs.. What spring do you have on your forge?

Also when you felt it did you see any puffs of black out of the tailpipe?

Stock spring, I think it's the blue one? No shims.

No, I didn't see any smoke but I wasn't looking behind me too much either.

[dread]

I'm not seeing the lean condition, help me understand that. I did mean start the pull at 3000-3500, I agree that I hit WOT at too low of an RPM.


Couldn't hear it, but damned sure felt it... it just stopped pulling.


You know, the KR has been more active since adding the SU TMIC.

Your a/f ratio is between 13 and 14 when the ecu is pulling all that timing to richen it up. You should be around 12.0 if you were tuned. I agree one step colder plugs should be added asap and you should check for leaks, possible the turbo inlet is loose. What are your long term and short term fuel trims? A would also help the situation and don't load your car up below 3k.

[Sport6]

Stock spring, I think it's the blue one? No shims.

No, I didn't see any smoke but I wasn't looking behind me too much either.

Try putting the stock bpv on and taking a few runs afterwards. Might be as simple as putting the wrong spring/shims in.

[kgb]

FYI...When I had my Forge, I would boost to 22.5 and had more vibes...after I put my stock back in, I boost to 20.5 and no more vibes...the BPV can have a big effect on the whole engine process

[TheRealDefman]

Your a/f ratio is between 13 and 14 when the ecu is pulling all that timing to richen it up. You should be around 12.0 if you were tuned. I agree one step colder plugs should be added asap and you should check for leaks, possible the turbo inlet is loose. What are your long term and short term fuel trims? A would also help the situation and don't load your car up below 3k.

Thanks, I've got some credit at SU from the TMIC purchase, so I have the NGK plugs on the way.

STFT is roughly -5 to +5, probably around -1.6 just normal cruising. LTFT is about -4.7 cruising and -12.5 at idle. I will admit ignorance and say that I really don't understand what is. If there's a "turbos for dummies" post/thread/site, please point me too it!!

I really didn't mean to start so low and I will probably make a new 3rd gear pull from a more suitable RPM, maybe we're just looking at a problem with the fuel pedal actuator. I didn't go full WOT but I did get into it today on the way home in 3rd at a higher RPM and didn't get the KR alert (set at 3).




Try putting the stock bpv on and taking a few runs afterwards. Might be as simple as putting the wrong spring/shims in.

Thanks, might give that a try. Supposedly the out-of-the-box config is the same as stock, that may or may not be true. I've seen lots of people running the yellow with 2 shims.

[Zimmer]

I am not sure if this is correct but is the knock retard the correct output to be monitoring when looking at knock? Is that signal your cars response to reduce knock? I could have sworn it was another parameter/acronym? I don't own a DH. I hope I am right for your sake. I mean if your car's timing is adjusting especially at lower RPM's and WOT that would make sense but who am I to say I'm jyst questioning.

[Zimmer]

some additional info...

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123731008

[phantom6294]

I am not sure if this is correct but is the knock retard the correct output to be monitoring when looking at knock? Is that signal your cars response to reduce knock? I could have sworn it was another parameter/acronym? I don't own a DH. I hope I am right for your sake. I mean if your car's timing is adjusting especially at lower RPM's and WOT that would make sense but who am I to say I'm jyst questioning.

Yes, it is the correct output to be monitoring. KR is not a measurement of knock, but, as you somewhat put it, the car's response to knock. It is a value, measured in degrees, of how much the spark timing is being retard. So, in the OP's first log, a KR value of 7.5° indicates the the spark timing is retarded ~7° (it may be 7° or it may be 8°) from the programmed or 'base' timing map.

[Speed3Rookie]

Stock spring, I think it's the blue one? No shims.

No, I didn't see any smoke but I wasn't looking behind me too much either.

The forge was fine for me in any config. I have tried all of them.
I settled on blue w/1 shim.
Stage2 v103 FMIC log attached....very little kr.

[tru-boost]

I bet the IC or a clamp is leaking. Boost leaks can cause big KR. If you lo timing along with KR you will see that it does no work like phantom said, although it should. The KR actually seems to be the measurement from the knock sensor NOT the amount of timing being pulled at that moment. Like i said if you log them together you can see that. I have seen up to 5.5 on my KR but the timing does not change. Then on a log with 6.0 KR you can see a big drop in timing. The way the PIDs work are a little funny with the DH sometimes.

[Zimmer]

I'm going to claim ignorance .... the sound which you hear a rapid "ping" ???

I am more convinced I am hearing a "ping" and not the turbo whining. I hear the whoosh from the SRI and then as RPMs increase I swear I am hearing the "ping". I know what I need to do is to buy/borrow a device such as a DH to monitor.

[TheRealDefman]

I bet the IC or a clamp is leaking. Boost leaks can cause big KR.

Not to seem argumentative, I don't know enough about it, but I don't see what I would consider a boost leak. I do see that the boost tapers off on both runs, but I would expect it to do that.

[Sport6]

I'm going to claim ignorance .... the sound which you hear a rapid "ping" ???

I am more convinced I am hearing a "ping" and not the turbo whining. I hear the whoosh from the SRI and then as RPMs increase I swear I am hearing the "ping". I know what I need to do is to buy/borrow a device such as a DH to monitor.

Do you hear this regularly? Its quite a nasty sound, you should be able to feel it as well.

What octane are you using?

[phantom6294]

I bet the IC or a clamp is leaking. Boost leaks can cause big KR. If you lo timing along with KR you will see that it does no work like phantom said, although it should. The KR actually seems to be the measurement from the knock sensor NOT the amount of timing being pulled at that moment. Like i said if you log them together you can see that. I have seen up to 5.5 on my KR but the timing does not change. Then on a log with 6.0 KR you can see a big drop in timing. The way the PIDs work are a little funny with the DH sometimes.

At the risk of being Mr. Literal again... I would disagree a boost leak would cause knock. A boost leak should, in theory, cause the engine to run rich, which generally helps prevent knock. A leak pre-turbo while under boost would lead to potential lean conditions, but I don't see how leaking off boost would cause knock.

Also, I disagree with the statement that KR is not the timing being pulled. Take a look at this log:
http://www.cademetz.com/ms3/knock_fest.png

While it is certainly only one log and certainly not conclusive, there appears to be a definitely relationship between the slope of the spark advance and knock retard lines. It is hard to determine at the onset of the knock retard because the engine load is rapidly changing and thus the spark advance is changing. Yet, once I settle into a cruise situation, as the knock retard falls, the spark advance increase. When the knock retard once again increase, the spark advance once again goes down in a corresponding manner. Now, admittedly, for one reason or another the spark advance does have a significant drop with no significant corresponding change in KR, engine load, RPM etc... which admittedly I can't explain. Though not shown, later in the same log from which that image came, I have a similar situation -- the spark advance and knock retard lines are closely correlated.

I would certainly be interested in seeing any logs you have with which to compare data. I also have plenty of log data where it seems like spark advance and knock retard aren't directly correlated... but the key difference is that the engine load and rpm are in a state of significant change and thus the spark advance is in rapidly changing so it doesn't seem to be a situation where one could easily compare spark advance to knock retard with any clarity; since load and RPM are changing the spark advance is changing. In my opinion, a constant load/RPM situation is the best to determine the correlation since the spark advance should be constant allowing for a direct comparison of spark advance and knock retard.

[tru-boost]

Like i mentioned with KR leveks over about 5.5 i see the same trend you show. But with KR levels below 5 the ignition timing will not follow a trend relating to it. Look at your KR levels. It well above 5 for most of that log.
Inis wierd to get KR at a cruise like that. I get some high numbers at times, but only under heavy throttle.

[phantom6294]

Like i mentioned with KR leveks over about 5.5 i see the same trend you show. But with KR levels below 5 the ignition timing will not follow a trend relating to it. Look at your KR levels. It well above 5 for most of that log.

If that were the case, it would seem logical once knock retard drops below 5, that spark advance would return to a pre-knock retard level. In my log, it doesn't. Are you implying, by chance, that it takes an initial KR jump over ~5-6 for spark advance to initially be affected, and from there spark advance follows knock retard?

Once I settle into cruise, KR is reporting 5.3 and spark advance is 29°. KR then drops to 2.8 and spark advance has grown to 32°. A delta of 2.5 and 3 respectively; not exact for sure. It is hard to do an exact comparison even when cruising because the spark advance will change by 1 degree here and there for seemingly no reason. KR gets as low as 2.1, but only for perhaps a single data point. The spark advance is 33° and when knock retard jumps back up to 5.6, the spark advance drops to 29°. A delta of 3.5 and 4°.

Also, to include another data point... here a sub-picture from a later part in the log...

http://www.cademetz.com/ms3/knock_fest_later.png

I didn't include it, but RPM is stable varying about 30 RPM across this portion of the log. Engine load starts at 22% at the beginning of this portion and settles at ~18%.

So, in this particular log, the initial KR value is a paltry 1.1 but the spark advance drops a full 11°. Now, this may however be an artifact that the load drops from 21% to 18% in conjunction with spark advance. However, that is counter-intuitive because at a constant RPM, a drop in load should generally lead to an increase in spark advance. Also, BAT drops 17°F across this picture which may also be a factor.

That aside, KR drops to 0.4 and spark advance is at 27°. KR then jumps to 2.5° and spark advance drops to 25°. A delta of 2.1 and 2° respectively. With each decay and jump of KR, there seems to be a corresponding change in spark advance. What is odd about this log... is that at the end, engine load drops by only 1% to 17%, RPM is still holding constant, and despite the KR reading having now spiked to >5, spark advance increase to 33°. This flow with the idea of less load more advance, but such a small drop in load doesn't seem to correlate to such a relatively significant increase in spark advance.

I'll certainly do some more logging this afternoon... and post back with more logs. Just FYI, I am using the calculated load PID -- I may skip logging BAT and log both calculated and absolute load as calculated load may not reflect well given the scale we are on.

[TheRealDefman]

Huh, interesting things happen when you start your pull at a more reasonable RPM, like ZERO KR... HR7 NGK Iridiums going in a little later this morning after the engine cools off.

You guys think ~10 on the AFR at WOT is too low though?

[TheRealDefman]

Nothing I consider exciting here either after installing the NGK's, which is a good thing. A little KR (1.4) in 3rd but that isn't unusual. I also cranked down on the hose clamps more to make sure they're good & snug.