Advice before I buy my MSP

[Avan_Xx]

Hi everyone! I've been reading your forums a lot, but I just signed up minutes ago to ask you a question beacuse I'm looking to buy a MSP. I saw another post where a user posted pics of a MSP he looked into buying so that forum members could tell him what kind of mods were done to it. I'm hoping you could help me with something slightly similar.

When I asked the owner if he had fixed the compressor surge (turkey) issue, he said he took it to mazda, and then changed the wastegate actuator, spark plugs, and coils. He said since then the turkey was gone (and I couldn't hear it either.) The thing is, I couldn't imagine mazda replacing it with a non-mazda part, but they must have done something because its not there anymore. Heres a picture, can any of you tell what they've done?
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1598/dscn0396ho2.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1267/dscn0397bq8.jpg
On another note, does everything look stock to you guys, like he said? It looks like it to me but I wouldn't know for sure.

Also, he said that he has never had problems with fuel cut off. He said it got sluggish sometimes around 3900rpm which went away after the above mentioned changes by mazda. I don't think this was cutoff because i hear it feels more like slamming the breaks than "sluggish," but he said he dosn'et notice it anymore.

The car is the Spicy Orange one (2003 i believe) with everything but the above mentioned stuff complete stock. And maybe they replaced everything with stock parts who knows, thats why I'm here.

Can you give me any advice?




Really sorry about such a long post, but this question is unrelated. This will be my first car. I've had my liscence for a while I just haven't needed a car until now, I could walk everywhere I needed to go. Anwyay, since I decided to buy one I've spent many hours on this site. I know a small amount, (i'm not completely clueless.) The problem I'm having though is that I read about a part (say wastegate.) From reading this forum I know what it does, I know what symptoms the car might have if its messed up, but I've got no idea what it looks like. How did you guys learn everything? The forum gives great guides, but I can't identify the pieces they mention in the pictures they give. For example, the picture above I took of the wastegate - I took that picture because other topics discussing wastegates are sort of at the same angle, but I've got no idea where in this pic it is. How did you guys connect the idea with the actual part, if you know what I mean?

Thanks so much, and please don't flame me about my lack of knowledge. How am I supposed to learn if I don't ask questions, even if to you they may seem stupid?

[ItsSlow]

Welcome.. Its a good thing you're trying to learn about the car before you buy it.. (I wish I would have done more research, haha)

The wastegate question.. You didnt take a picture of the wastegate.. The wastegate on this car is an internal wastegate which means its built into the turbo.. What most people see is the wastegate actuator (which is one of the problem these cars have) and they call it the wastegate.. With the way all the stock components are crammed in there, you probably wont see the wastegate unless you know what you're looking for..

From the looks of the pics you posted, Im not sure what mazda did.. I can see the line that is capped off that would go to the wga (wastegate actuator) but thats about it..

[Avan_Xx]

I meant actuator. What he said was that they switched out the wastegate actuator, the spark plugs, and the coils. Though I'm not 100% sure what a coil is exactly.

[ItsSlow]

Oh ok, the coils (aka coilpack) are what give it spark.. They are located under the cover..

[lyserjic]

Smart man asking questions. Everyone here has always been very helpful to me.

Looking at the pictures the first thing i noticed is the vehicle is going to be due for a valve cover gasket replacement sometime in the near future. It looks like a little oil weepage is starting. This is an VERY EASY repair, even for a novice. You don't want to let it drag on, it'll make an oily mess in short order.

The gasket set is about $20-$30 if I remember, and the repair should take no more than an hour.

I didn't notice in your post, how many miles on it?

-Lyserjic
SpicyO #1291

[Avan_Xx]

75000 miles, still has stock clutch though but it didn't seem to slip, which is weird because I thought they wore out faster than that

[mspHtown]

75000 miles, still has stock clutch though but it didn't seem to slip, which is weird because I thought they wore out faster than that

it depends on how the car is abused. my stock clutch and stock flywheel still had plenty of life at 50k miles.

[Avan_Xx]

From the looks of the pics you posted, Im not sure what mazda did.. I can see the line that is capped off that would go to the wga (wastegate actuator) but thats about it..
Any other ideas / observations? I would really like to know what was done in case I decide to do some work on it. But like I said, with my level of experience (none) I can't tell.



Looking at the pictures the first thing i noticed is the vehicle is going to be due for a valve cover gasket replacement sometime in the near future. It looks like a little oil weepage is starting. This is an VERY EASY repair, even for a novice. You don't want to let it drag on, it'll make an oily mess in short order.
how can you tell? I don't really see oil seeping anywhere in the pic, but if it was seeping wouldn't you only be able to see it after removing that plastic thing over the engine?


I know I had several specific questions, but if anyoen else sees something general like lyserjic did with the valve cover gasket replacement, by all means let me know

[DCmonkey]

this is what i went by b4 i took the leap of faith into the MSP world

1) check for signs of abuse or extensive modifications i,e race axles, heavy duty clutch, rough idle, oild leaks from major engines gaskets,

2) check vehicle history and check for serious previous body damage, check the radiator support and make sure everything looks seamless also check if the body lines all match up exactly, tap the panels and make sure it doesnt sound like body filer has touched the car before.

3)test drive it and make sure you like how the car feels running when you are cruising or even pushing it a lil, FOLLOW YOUR GUT. if you dont feel something is right chances are it isnt.

4) try to get a good deal!!

5) if this is the car you like and you feel all is in the up n up then take it to your friendly local mazda dealer and get a full inspection just to be on the safe side which only cost me 80 bucks which to me was well spent.

6)enjoy and try to learn as much as you can about this car.


hope my advice helps you on your would-be purchase

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

I see that the vacuum line going to the by-pass valve has a vacuum T that has been plugged, where it is plugged should be the line to the wastegate actuator. Can you confirm the wastegate has a vacuum line? if not then it's gonna need one haha.

[franciscoescn]

Welcome! How much does he want for it?

[Avan_Xx]

No signs of abuse, no modifications, vehicle history shows no body damage or collisions, but he did have the radio replaced like 5 times. He said it got stuck halfway, and each time he brought it in they didn't fix it.

as far as test driving. . . I'm not so good at stick :( My friends have given me basic lessons and I know how but without practice, how could I be? Anyway, I asked my dad to test it out and he seemed to think it was fine. I went along too of course and I didn't notice any problems. The guy seemed kinda paranoid so we didn't take it over like 4500 rpm, but it seemed more sluggish than some of the others i've seem.


I can not confirm there is a vaccuum line, as I have no idea what a vaccuum line looks like, but wouldn't it not work at all if there wasn't one?


he dropped the asking price recently to 10,500. It seems reasonable, but what do you experts think? I think I could negotiate it a bit but we'll see. I'm also in no hurry. If i get it I get it but if not I have no problem waiting.


Finally, in respone to my disgusting lack of ability in connecting the idea with the real life part, anyone feel like being helpful? What are these? It's help a newbie time! haha
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6349/dscn0396highlightslw6.jpg

edit: sorry for the really bad drawing

[StealthWyvern]

Whats the mileage? Sorry if I missed it.

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

LOL

A = Hot side of charge piping
B = O2 sensor plug
C = Plugged line that should be going to your wastegate.
D = pipe from charge piping to BPV
E = Airbox
F = Mass air flow sensor
G = Intake pipe to turbo
H = BPV recirc line into intake
I = By Pass Valve
J = Vacuum line to BPV
K = Valve cover vent to intake
L = Cant really tell in picture, might be coolant line to turbo or what buddy is using for a wastegate vacuum source
M = Wiring fro second o2 snesor and your reverse light sensor I believe.

[Avan_Xx]

around 74000 miles


A = Hot side of charge piping
B = O2 sensor plug
C = Plugged line that should be going to your wastegate.
D = pipe from charge piping to BPV
E = Airbox
F = Mass air flow sensor
G = Intake pipe to turbo
H = BPV recirc line into intake
I = By Pass Valve
J = Vacuum line to BPV
K = Valve cover vent to intake
L = Cant really tell in picture, might be coolant line to turbo or what buddy is using for a wastegate vacuum source
M = Wiring fro second o2 snesor and your reverse light sensor I believe.
Thanks! I learned more from that than from hours of surfing this place lol.

That raises a couple more questions though, most importantly

C = Plugged line that should be going to your wastegate.do you have any idea why its not going to the wastegate? or any idea the effect on the car by not having it go to the wastegate?

When people talk about a wastegate actuator they really just mean the bypass valve right? In your opinions, does the bypass valve here look like the stock one?

[StealthWyvern]

around 74000 miles


You can do a lot better then that! I purchased mine for 10 with slightly under 60K at a used car dealership! Grant it was modded to the gills but still.

[Avan_Xx]

Well they started out at like 12k and just recently lowered it. They are riduclously optimistic people I guess. Anyway, I figured I'd maybe offer 8 or 8.5 and see what happened. I mean I don't want to lowball them but I honestly dont' think its worth what they're asking. What would you offer for it if you were in my position?

also wouldn't the mods have decreased the value of the one you bought?

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

the by pass valve is NOT the wastegate actuator. The wastegate should be attached to the turbo. Might be hard to see, bit it's on the driveres side of the turbo to the right on a bracket. looks like a circle with a rod coming out. There has to be a vacuum line going to that.

[Avan_Xx]

I'm assuming from everyones comments that the vaccuum line that you just mentioned isn't there. Does that mean the turbo will not work? That would explain why it seemed slower than the other stock ones.


and if that is the case Nick, what is the difference between a wastegate and a wastegate actuator, and where would the wastegate actuator be?

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

The wastegate actuator controls the internal wastegate..... and without it hooked up it should be faster becasue it's boosting more, but is VERY dangerous and should be hooked up.

You need to take take a look around the engine bay and figure out whats going on........... and you need to learn a lot more about turbo cars and driving manual transmission before you buy this car or it's gonna blow up on you.

[Avan_Xx]

Well thats why I'm here, I'm learning. And I haven't bought it yet, and I don't know 100% that I'm going to. I'm here to decide that. And knowledge dosen't just come out of nowhere, at some point you must have been learning too. I doubt my lack of knowledge would blow it up. And I know how to drive it, I'm just not great at it yet.


without it hooked up it should be faster becasue it's boosting more
would anyone just please explain how this makes any sense at all?

plugged line to wastegate = more boost which should equal more compressor surge, right? but instead there is none. why?

[StealthWyvern]

Well thats why I'm here, I'm learning. And I haven't bought it yet, and I don't know 100% that I'm going to. I'm here to decide that. And knowledge dosen't just come out of nowhere, at some point you must have been learning too. I doubt my lack of knowledge would blow it up. And I know how to drive it, I'm just not great at it yet.


would anyone just please explain how this makes any sense at all?

plugged line to wastegate = more boost which should equal more compressor surge, right? but instead there is none. why?

It would if the shit isn't hooked up right or you go tinkering with it!

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

I know guys who blow these cars up backing out of their driveway.... and they DO know how it works haha.

[Avan_Xx]

How can you say that they both a) blew it up, and b) knew how it worked, because if they knew how it worked they would have known not to do whatever they did to blow it up.

But this is not why I'm here. I'm here because I want your advice and opinions on the car, and tips if you've got any. Basically any kind of input. But I absolutely do not care what you think of me, or if you think that I shouldn't buy a turbo car, or any of that. I was hoping you guys would be a bit more. . . i don't know, welcoming? Maybe I came to the wrong place.


edit: the people selling the car seemed to know so much less than i did about it, and admittedly I don't know a lot, but somehow they managed to avoid blowing up the engine? In fact, it seemed to run very well compared to every other MSP i've seen, except maybe a bit more sluggish. Please remember that even though this is a performance car, many owners that aren't tuner fanatics have owned these cars without incident.

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

what I'm saying is these cars like to randomly blow up (Design flaw in oil squirters cause rods to snap) and are high maintainence. i wouldn't recommend buying one unless you have a whole bunch of money to throw at it. It will have problems gaurenteed. It take s alot of money to get these cars really reliable.

[StealthWyvern]

These cars can pop when 100% stock and stock boost levels to! Also the LSD on these things like to pop randomly as well!

[Avan_Xx]

the car in question has an extended warranty. that should cover all of these possible malfunctions, shouldn't it?

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

not if it isn't 100% stock...... like say if your wastegate vacuum line isn't hooked up they will not cover anything haha.

[StealthWyvern]

the car in question has an extended warranty. that should cover all of these possible malfunctions, shouldn't it?

It should but I would check with the warrenty provider if its voided and all speculations required

[Avan_Xx]

I'm pretty sure the warranty provider was Mazda, i'll be sure to double check the next time I contact them, and I'll ask about the stipulations too. Wouldn't want to void the warranty

or did you mean just check that the current owners didn't void it somehow?

[StealthWyvern]

I'm pretty sure the warranty provider was Mazda, i'll be sure to double check the next time I contact them, and I'll ask about the stipulations too. Wouldn't want to void the warranty

or did you mean just check that the current owners didn't void it somehow?

Check to see if its through mazda or a 3rd party. Then check with either one to make sure its still valid. I know mine, I had to get all fluids changed within 3 days of purchasing the car to keep it valid and have paper work of every shop I take it to... meaning i can't do crap myself on it except maybe brake pads.

[nullbyte]

The wastegate actuator STOPS the turbo from working to much so the engine doesn't overboost and go kaboom. Make sure you check out that the actuator has a good vacuum line that goes somewhere where there is vacuum! I would get this checked cause the guy you are buying says he replaced it or has someone replace it. I would want to make sure the work was done right. If you do get this car it's a good idea to invest in a proper boost gauge. You can use the boost gauge to make sure the car is not overboosting so nothing bad happens.

BTW Welcome to the forum. Don't let people give you a hard time for being new to turbos and stick driving....however, do be careful with this car. They have a lot of things which can go wrong on them!

[franciscoescn]

I think you should buy her and as soon as you get her change the oil on the engine and on the tranny. Just treat her right and she will last a long time. I posted some pix of the wastgate so you know what it looks like hope that it helps.

[axisboldaslove]

if you do buy it....please do YOURSELF a favor and weld your LSD in your transmission...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...if you don't then...if you look in my signature below this text....that picture in the bottom left hand corner...that is what a broken LSD looks like...and it's not fun $2,000 to fix it at mazda..and once you do break it...it's not driveable...you'll have to tow it home

[axisboldaslove]

oh and do you plan on modifying it at all?

[Ricktalife]

if you do buy it....please do YOURSELF a favor and weld your LSD in your transmission...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...if you don't then...if you look in my signature below this text....that picture in the bottom left hand corner...that is what a broken LSD looks like...and it's not fun $2,000 to fix it at mazda..and once you do break it...it's not driveable...you'll have to tow it home

how much does it cost to weld your lsd?

edit: heh 666 posts.

[Avan_Xx]

I wasn't planning on modifying for at least several months so I figure everything out. Or maybe not at all.

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

how much does it cost to weld your lsd?

a welder would probably charge like 40 bucks max, that hard part is getting it out of your tranny, if you don't do it yourself then thats a shitload of labor cost.

[Avan_Xx]

Can anyone explain how plugging the vacuum line to the wastegate actuator has stopped the compressor surge?

[nullbyte]

the vacuum line is what makes the actuator and wastegate work. Inside of the hotside (turbine side) of your turbo there are 2 paths for the hot gas to go through. One path goes through the turbine (which creates boost) and another around the turbine (which doesn't create boost). There is a metal gate (the wastegate) which can be opened or closed to determine which path the exhaust gases go (causing the turbine to spin or not spin). The actuator pushs/pulls a rod which opens or closes (actuates) the wastegate.


But how does the actuator know when to open or close the wastegate? simple....it has a spring which will be compressed (actuated) once a certain X amount psi of pressure is put in it. This pressure will come from the vacuum line. Normal when the TB is closed there is a vacuum condition in your intake manifold. When your car is boosting this vacuum condition turns into a boost condition...and X amount of psi travel down the vacuum line attached to your intake mani leading to the wastegate actuator.


In the case where no vac line is attached to the wastegate actuator the wastegate remains closed and the only path for exhuast gas is through the turbine creating boost. While this sounds good at first the car will continue to boost until the engine can't take in and something pops.


Thus the job of the wastegate and it's actuator is to make sure a preset maximum boost level (determined by the spring in the actuator) is maintained.


Hope this helps