Perception is reality but the MS3 may be the best balanced car I’ve ever driven

[Smokehouse]

You know…after having spent some time in some fun performance vehicles (EVO, terminator Cobra, Sentra SER Spec V, GTO, Mustang GT, Lightning, SHO, etc) I can say this little MS3 is possibly one of the best-balanced little cars I’ve ever driven…

With that said…the Cobra or GTO would tromp this little thing in a straight line…and the EVO would smoke it in the corners…

But then again…having far better suspension than the Cobra, any other Mustang or the GTO, this little guy handles like it’s on rails…sure, not like the EVO can but then again the daily drivability aspect has the EVO beat hands down…like anyone who has spent time in an EVO knows…they beat the shit out of you on public roads and while fun for a short time, it gets old quick.

Then there’s the speed aspect…like I said above, the ’03 cobra I had would have destroyed the MS3 in a street race…but…like many that have driven a high HP car know…the Cobra was insane to control at times and was tough to drive in traffic or on city streets. When it comes to horsepower, there is such a thing as too much when on public roads.

No, the MS3 is not the fastest car I’ve ever driven by a long shot. Nor does it handle the best…what it is though is balanced and near perfect right out of the box…something few cars offer. I was the "I can take a beating, bring it on!!!" type until I actually I had to live with some of the cars I mentioned...at that point it's a completely different story my friends. This MS3 is so balanced...I could easily take this car on my daily commute every day...and still have fun on the weekends, something tough to obtain.



…and some here talk of torque steer? Try driving a 2002 Sentra SER Spec V…that little bastard will clean rip the steering wheel out of your hand…

[mo08ms3]

(iagree)

[oaklandopen]

it all really comes down to driveability really. that's the balance you're talking about. i know a guy that has 2 rx-7s. one is a monster with a shifter so short it barely disrupts oxygen atoms during gear changes, an LSD that could rattle your fillings out on a right-angled turn, and racing bucket seats suitable for an infant. the other is a project he's working on, painting everything in some sort of sound deadening rubber, beefing up all bushings, lots of rubber between the wheel and ground, and overal just a cushy ride (for an rx-7)

you're right, it really is boring/irritating after a while to have a car like your cobra, and it being a "job" just to drive it

and btw, carefull with what you say about spanking the ms3 with any car let alone an EVO...some fanbois might get butthurt round these parts

[GoFast]

and btw, carefull with what you say about spanking the ms3 with any car let alone an EVO...some fanbois might get butthurt round these parts

lol

[240ka]

it all really comes down to driveability really. that's the balance you're talking about. i know a guy that has 2 rx-7s. one is a monster with a shifter so short it barely disrupts oxygen atoms during gear changes, an LSD that could rattle your fillings out on a right-angled turn, and racing bucket seats suitable for an infant. the other is a project he's working on, painting everything in some sort of sound deadening rubber, beefing up all bushings, lots of rubber between the wheel and ground, and overal just a cushy ride (for an rx-7)

you're right, it really is boring/irritating after a while to have a car like your cobra, and it being a "job" just to drive it

and btw, carefull with what you say about spanking the ms3 with any car let alone an EVO...some fanbois might get butthurt round these parts

im kinda confused by this reply. i dont understand a reply like this to the thread starters post

he said he had an 03 cobra. which the 03s and 04s were all like factory freaks. the cobras from those two years were fast

he's not dissing the MS3 one bit

[oaklandopen]

im kinda confused by this reply. i dont understand a reply like this to the thread starters post

he said he had an 03 cobra. which the 03s and 04s were all like factory freaks. the cobras from those two years were fast

he's not dissing the MS3 one bit

i was agreeing with him while citing a similar instance (friend's rx-7). the OP stated that it's better to have a car that is well rounded in all aspects than to have a car that is really good at one thing. like his cobra was fast, but only going straight. and he said his evo could run circles around an ms3 on the track, but it lacked the drivability that he needed for a "daily driver".

and i know he's not dissing the ms3, but then again i know of a crap-load of other posts on this forum that started the same way and ended up being threadjacked for multiple pages with nothing but back and forth crap about what car is better.

[mr_mazda329]

…and some here talk of torque steer? Try driving a 2002 Sentra SER Spec V…that little bastard will clean rip the steering wheel out of your hand…


So true. Driving my friends 05 Spec-V does the same thing to ya. BTW...I think you need to drive a miata to feel some balance.

[Smokehouse]

So true. Driving my friends 05 Spec-V does the same thing to ya. BTW...I think you need to drive a miata to feel some balance.

I've hears that the MX-5 is a VERY balanced vehicle...

I guess I should redefine what I mean by balance though. I'm not talking about the "near 50/50 weight distribution" or perfect handling often associated with the word balance.

I basically mean balance in terms of "A little of this, a little of that". This car is perfect by no means but it has nice amounts of everything that makes a car fun to drive. Straight line acceleration? Yup. Handling? That too. Comfort? Yes. Some of everything but not too much in any category, this is something hard to attain as too much in any category takes away from livability of the vehicle on a daily basis.

[mr_mazda329]

I have to agree with you smokehouse. It has enough of everything and that makes it a well rounded car.

[ZyrehT]

…and the EVO would smoke it in the corners…


The guy with the video of him lapping EVO's at the road course would beg to differ.

[mr_mazda329]

The guy with the video of him lapping EVO's at the road course would beg to differ.

I wanna see this video... Havn't seen it yet. Not doubting it or anything.

[79_Limited]

I will chime in to point out the the practical hatchback. The hatch made it a true winner for me because I need something to haul stuff from time to time. It came down to the Speed3 or Porsche 993 for me. The practical side won over for me because as you well said it is very "balanced."

[714ms3]

…and some here talk of torque steer? Try driving a 2002 Sentra SER Spec V…that little bastard will clean rip the steering wheel out of your hand…


I had an 04 Sentra SeR Spec V, and I must concur, it had some crazy torque. There are quite a few of us that stepped out of Spec V's on this forum.

[Smokehouse]

The guy with the video of him lapping EVO's at the road course would beg to differ.

Stock for stock though? Nearly any car can be made into something other than what it was born as. I'm talking out of the box-vs-out of the box. Bone stock a MS3 can't hang with an EVO on a track handling wise...

[GoFast]

Stock for stock though? Nearly any car can be made into something other than what it was born as. I'm talking out of the box-vs-out of the box. Bone stock a MS3 can't hang with an EVO on a track handling wise...

you would be amazed at what the difference the driver mod could make. my last trackday i did there was an evo out there in stock form and i was running a 1 second or so faster per lap. my car is stock also

a little perspective...while i was running faster than the evo there was a reg 3 sedan running faster then me with r coumpounds and coil overs

[squidmotion]

ms3 is kinda like the supermarine spitfire in WW2..


was it the fastest plane? no.
did it have the best turning, diving, range, hi-alt performance, durability of other fighters?.... again, no.

but the 'balance' of a bit of all of these attributes lead to a true killer in the skies! and didn't break the bank to build one...

and did the pilots who flew them, fall in love with the aircraft? just ask one.



sorry for the analogy, but it just kinda came to mind...

[Smokehouse]

you would be amazed at what the difference the driver mod could make. my last trackday i did there was an evo out there in stock form and i was running a 1 second or so faster per lap. my car is stock also

a little perspective...while i was running faster than the evo there was a reg 3 sedan running faster then me with r coumpounds and coil overs

I understand what your saying...I bet you I couldn't make my MS3 do a 0-60 as fast as the magazines report either, a driver does have alot to do with the outcome.

I was just trying to compare stock cars. There's something to be said for what a car can do stock. You can mod anything...but as I've found in my own life, the more you mod, the farther you get from reliability and daily user-friendliness...

[GoFast]

you are absolutely correct!! i really think the trick is to research any mods that you want to do and think about what is important to you before you start buying everything out there. some people dont care about the warranty so they do alot to their car and really pave the way for everyone else. then others mod there car and it blows up and cry about the dealer not honoring the warranty or about how unreliable the car is. so take what you read on these forums with a grain of salt and enjoy your car

[Antonio DiMarco]

You know…after having spent some time in some fun performance vehicles (EVO, terminator Cobra, Sentra SER Spec V, GTO, Mustang GT, Lightning, SHO, etc) I can say this little MS3 is possibly one of the best-balanced little cars I’ve ever driven…

With that said…the Cobra or GTO would tromp this little thing in a straight line…and the EVO would smoke it in the corners…

But then again…having far better suspension than the Cobra, any other Mustang or the GTO, this little guy handles like it’s on rails…sure, not like the EVO can but then again the daily drivability aspect has the EVO beat hands down…like anyone who has spent time in an EVO knows…they beat the shit out of you on public roads and while fun for a short time, it gets old quick.

Then there’s the speed aspect…like I said above, the ’03 cobra I had would have destroyed the MS3 in a street race…but…like many that have driven a high HP car know…the Cobra was insane to control at times and was tough to drive in traffic or on city streets. When it comes to horsepower, there is such a thing as too much when on public roads.

No, the MS3 is not the fastest car I’ve ever driven by a long shot. Nor does it handle the best…what it is though is balanced and near perfect right out of the box…something few cars offer. I was the "I can take a beating, bring it on!!!" type until I actually I had to live with some of the cars I mentioned...at that point it's a completely different story my friends. This MS3 is so balanced...I could easily take this car on my daily commute every day...and still have fun on the weekends, something tough to obtain.



…and some here talk of torque steer? Try driving a 2002 Sentra SER Spec V…that little bastard will clean rip the steering wheel out of your hand…

You hit the nail on the head. Anyone who is an engineer knows that good engineering is all about compromise and balance. Sure while you could throw a ton of money at attaining perfect parts and designing a perfect machine, it just isn't fiscally feasible when you're trying to sell to the majority. The really great engineering is done on a budget by experts who know where to spend the money. Personally I think the MS3 (hell I believe most Mazdas) is a textbook example of top-notch engineering on a budget. While it's not over engineered, it certainly shows how Mazda knew how to deliver a well-balanced car at an very affordable price.

Makes me wonder how they will top it with the 2010/2011 version.

[FMOS Racing]

I've actually owned a few of the same vehicles you have. A few Lightnings, Cobras, an SHO, plus a couple of 3-series, IS300, SVT Contour, a pair of GTIs, and a Probe GT... and while I love this car for the price, I really don't dig the handling that much. It's fantastic just off center, the reflexes are great, but it plows hard at the limit and that just bugs me badly.

For a FWD platform, I like it and the LSD definitely makes it fun to toss around. At 75% and 3rd gear or faster, it may be the most fun car I've driven... but not all-out. That honor may go to the IS300 (manual transmission), which the MS3 will absolutely humiliate in a straight line, but that little Lexus had a fantastically balanced chassis that I could change the attitude of with either the throttle or the brakes nearly at will. And it had god's own brakes. My one knock on that car is that sometimes the "emergency mode" braking would kick in when I'd stab the brakes on corner entry and that could be seriously unsettling to both the driver and the car!

I've done a lot of road course time in RWD vehicles and just love the ability to bring a little torque to bear exiting a corner and getting some rotation into the transition. I just can't do that with FWDs and so I simply don't enjoy them as much.

I actually enjoy this car more in a straight line than I do in the corners. I'm an oddball, I guess.

By the way, none of this is a knock on the car, just my observations. It's the best $21K I've ever spent on a vehicle, period.

[Bravnik]

I agree completely with the OP. I had an S2000 before this car and I thought it was balanced. However, after owning the MS3 I'm really happy with my decision to sell the S2000. Sure I miss the vert aspect, but to be honest after 5years and driving 80miles a day, I don't miss the wind noise one bit.

The MS3 has power, handling and makes a great daily driver. Add a few mods, springs and sway bar and it's one hell of a car for the money.

[ZyrehT]

And it had god's own brakes.

Ummm, there isn't a test anywhere that shows it stopping better than ours.

[GoFast]

Ummm, there isn't a test anywhere that shows it stopping better than ours.
+1 with the exception of crappy brake fluid, our brakes are amazing. the only time the crappy brake fluid came into play for me is on the track, but any factory brake fluid would have the same results

[MSP2k3]

…and some here talk of torque steer? Try driving a 2002 Sentra SER Spec V…that little bastard will clean rip the steering wheel out of your hand…

that made me laugh... my last car was also a spec v.

[Alexsered]

I owned an 02 specV and that thing was fun but a POS at the same time. I did have alot done to it and it was a track freak, but had way to many problems, and after I replaced the engine, I got rid of it.

I love my speed3, but out of everything I experienced, the most balanced car I would have to say is c6/z06. It will not hold as much, but its comfortable, handles great, and is remarkably great to drive in traffic and as a daily commuter. Even on the highway there have been times of 30+mpg (non-traffic wide open highways with cruise control) For our price range though, nothing really comes too close.

[Kain]

When I think of how balanced the MS3 is, what comes to mind is that I can make Home Despot runs, carry a set of wheels/tires, haul furniture, load groceries, and do well on the odd track day.

[eg6motion]

When I think of how balanced the MS3 is, what comes to mind is that I can make Home Despot runs, carry a set of wheels/tires, haul furniture, load groceries, and do well on the odd track day.

exactly.

[MSP2k3]

I owned an 02 specV and that thing was fun but a POS at the same time. I did have alot done to it and it was a track freak, but had way to many problems, and after I replaced the engine, I got rid of it.


Yeah, my brother bought it from me and he spun a bearing and had to have the engine replaced also. He still has it and is a blast to drive, but the transmission is on its way out now also.

[FMOS Racing]

Ummm, there isn't a test anywhere that shows it stopping better than ours.

Magazine numbers put the cars' straight-line stopping distances right about the same (Manual transmission IS300 about 113-115 ft, MS3 about 116-118 ft - I won't quibble about that couple of feet if you won't), but that doesn't mean that a better-balanced car doesn't stop better when things are less than straight-line. Besides, I was talking subjective overall driving experience and not absolute performance numbers.

Purely my opinion.

[CnoTataymo]

Haha, I too had a Spec V but an 03'. Sure was an interesting torquey car. Then I got an MSP and now and MS3. Couldn't be any happier.

[BillTheCat]

I've only had one serious straight-line screamer, a fully built MKIII Supra Turbo (~500 rwhp). Also had a '73 Chevelle with a 350, but it really wasn't that powerful. Most of my cars have been smaller cars built to handle well more than blow you back in your seat. (Miata, VW Golf, Mazda MX3, MINI Cooper S (x2)) All have been fun in one way or another, but I have to agree that the MS3 is a very good balance of speed, handling, comfort, and practicality.

Like someone else mentioned, the MS3 is not the fastest, doesn't handle the best, isn't the most comfortable, but it's not the "least" in any of those categories, etiher. It's a strong performer across the board with no severe weak points. Unlike most of my cars, which I have owned for 2-3 years & then moved on for various reasons, I could see owning this car for quite a long time.

[808MP5]

Test drove one today... pretty fun car... with a decent to moderate boost...
doesn't torque like my p5 though or maybe that's because i didn't get to WOT to third gear... not enough road

[ZyrehT]

doesn't torque like my p5 though

That's the difference between warranty and not.

[ZyrehT]

Magazine numbers put the cars' straight-line stopping distances right about the same (Manual transmission IS300 about 113-115 ft, MS3 about 116-118 ft - I won't quibble about that couple of feet if you won't), but that doesn't mean that a better-balanced car doesn't stop better when things are less than straight-line. Besides, I was talking subjective overall driving experience and not absolute performance numbers.

Purely my opinion.


I looked at 15 different sites. Not one had the 300 with a better stopping distance. Please show the sites you use.

[Alexsered]

I looked at 15 different sites. Not one had the 300 with a better stopping distance. Please show the sites you use.

the brakes on the mazdaspeed3 are very impressive, only one piston but my specV had an upgraded brembo brake system and did not stop as good as my speed3.

[FMOS Racing]

Guess you want to quibble, so...

http://www.modernracer.com/lexusis300.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/lexus/is300/100003423/specs.html
http://lexus.jbcarpages.com/IS/2002/index3.php

Compared to
http://www.modernracer.com/history/mazdaspeed3history.html (It's a copy of the Edmunds article, apparently)
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=116868
http://www.carreview.com/MAZDASPEED3SPECScrx.aspx

And the IS300 will do it again and again and again. It'll do it even once the chassis has started to lean in a corner. Try that in an MS3 and you'll be looking back down the road you just drove on. Simply a weakness of FWD. My SHO, Probe GT and SVT Contour all left the track backwards at least once from lift throttle oversteer.

[Alexsered]

Guess you want to quibble, so...

http://www.modernracer.com/lexusis300.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/lexus/is300/100003423/specs.html
http://lexus.jbcarpages.com/IS/2002/index3.php

Compared to
http://www.modernracer.com/history/mazdaspeed3history.html
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=116868
http://www.carreview.com/MAZDASPEED3SPECScrx.aspx

And the IS300 will do it again and again and again. It'll do it even once the chassis has started to lean in a corner. Try that in an MS3 and you'll be looking back down the road you just drove on. Simply a weakness of FWD. My SHO, Probe GT and SVT Contour all left the track backwards at least once from lift throttle oversteer.

I'm confused because every review that I've seen has a stopping distance for the speed3 109-114 ft. This link shows 113, it doesn't seem the is300 performs as well as the speed3 here.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=121942/pageNumber=4

[FMOS Racing]

You guys go ahead and base your perception of braking performance off of straight line controlled test magazine numbers (and if you think 2 ft here or there makes a difference... wow). Go ahead and base your perception of handling off of published skidpad numbers, too. If you really think that slamming on the brakes from 60 to a dead stop in a level test or driving around in a circle on a smooth, flat skidpad really indicates the performance of the platform, so be it.

I've driven both cars hard and can tell you that in my OPINION the MS3 isn't nearly as fun to drive AT THE LIMIT as the IS300 was - I'm sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings, but it's the way I call it. But it's an apples-to-oranges comparison. One cost $10K more and had a performance-style suspension and 54/46 weight distribution. The other has a tweaked out economy car suspension and 60/40 weight distribution. One is damned quick in a straight line, the other rather plodding by comparison... but that wasn't the be-all, end-all of the driving experience for me.

I sold the Lexus because it got lousy mileage. Bought a TDI Jetta as a long-haul car. Slow, handles terribly, but it gets 48 mpg loaded with people and dogs and the cruise set at 80. Does that hurt anyones feelings?

[Alexsered]

nobody really cares, I just thought it was odd that you wanted to state numbers, and now the numbers dont matter? IS300 is heavier than the mazdaspeed3, slower in acceleration, and has worse breaking. It's probably more fun to drive at the limits because the limits in the IS300 is much closer than the speed3.

Jay Leno has even said that it's more fun to drive a slow car to it's limits than a fast car to it's limits.

[rednofive]

You hit the nail on the head. Anyone who is an engineer knows that good engineering is all about compromise and balance. Sure while you could throw a ton of money at attaining perfect parts and designing a perfect machine, it just isn't fiscally feasible when you're trying to sell to the majority. The really great engineering is done on a budget by experts who know where to spend the money. Personally I think the MS3 (hell I believe most Mazdas) is a textbook example of top-notch engineering on a budget. While it's not over engineered, it certainly shows how Mazda knew how to deliver a well-balanced car at an very affordable price.

"hell I believe most Mazdas" really is the key part of this paragraph from Don DiMarco.

I couldn't agree more. Personally I think Mazdas are BMW's with FWD only and the Mazda's with RWD are BMW's, just with less torque. I don't care about all the luxo-crap thrown into the newer BMW's - the BMW's handle better than anything I've gotten to drive of-track (I don't mean drive OFF da track...).

All of the Mazda cars get the same reviews about amazing handling.

I personally built and raced the avatar at the left so I could race for three years with the SCCA in the ITS class. No, it was no SpeedSource7, but I could turn the car with nothing but trailbraking and throttlelift and throttle press. It was perfect. My modded M3 owning friend was envious (though he did remove the stock M3 push problem with his mods).

It isn't terribly fair to compare RWD to FWD in terms of balance, but I think the MS3 is as close to balanced as an FWD will ever get to be. I'm not a fan of the computer-based boost control in the MS3 while in turns or cold weather, but other than that it handles amazingly well. I'd hate to put a sway bar kit on because I bet they all go too far with the rear bar (street posers love stiff bars for low-speed antics but shit'll kill ya at the track and any real speed).

I'll just say, that of all the FWD cars I've owned or had the privilege to drive, the MS3 far exceeds my expectations for the money.

I've been wishing for a car like this ever since I started driving in '87.
I used to tell my wife that "this isn't just a car I want - this is a car that can offer the best car technologies in the most practical form factor ever derived over the past 100 years of automobile engineering for the lowest price ever offered for the most performance offered."

She was sold the moment she got to ride in it (and I got a raise and some cash and we could actually afford another payment...but hey, we're past the accounting phase now - it's mine!)

I stand by that, but welcome a challenge to it. I wouldn't have sold my E36 325i if I didn't fully believe that.

Consider that in 1996, I bought an Acura Integra GSR for $23K.
$23K.
In 2008 I bought a more practical FWD car for $21.7K that has more space for 4 adults, a hatchback, and 2X the torque and 6 speeds AND with a true LSD? Oh no, no leather.
HUH?
I also test drove the StangGT that same year as the GSR, but solid-axle AND the driver's seat didn't fit me comfortably at only 6'2"? Are we in America? C'mon.

yes, I wish it were RWD. I can't stand FWD, but it is tolerable in this car.
I hear that is also true of the Mini cooper S, but it just isn't practical enough and costs more.

I do miss the BMWCCA, though.

We really need an MCCA.

[coololddude]

I love the MS3 as much as I love my Mommy!!

[Kindred]

Damn, I didn't realize that, that were that many of us here that came from the Spec5 camp.

[Kain]

Damn, I didn't realize that, that were that many of us here that came from the Spec5 camp.

Of course. Going from one car with a bunch of problems to another car with a bunch of problems... it's like coming home again!

[240ka]

^^^not a single prob ith mine and 5k miles on the dial

[FMOS Racing]

nobody really cares, I just thought it was odd that you wanted to state numbers, and now the numbers dont matter?

No, I said the numbers didn't matter earlier in this thread, but someone else wanted to quibble and asked for the articles. I posted three links for each car, in each the IS300 had better braking than the MS3 - I didn't realize when I posted them that one was simply a regurgitation of the other. In the end, I REALLY don't care, I've driven both cars hard, I know which one was more fun to drive.

Red - I had an E30 and an E36 325is. BMW lost me with the E46 cars, just refined all the fun out of them in my opinion. I like the MS3's "visceral" driving experience by comparison.

[240ka]

are you talking about the reg 3-series for the E46 or M3. if M3 i still love the E46 M3. im lost on the E92 M3 which i find to be damn ugly

[ZyrehT]

Guess you want to quibble, so...

Still quibbling, only one site tests both and it shows a one foot difference. Without equivelent testing on both from the same sites it doesn't matter. See, here's two from the same site that show the ms3 ahead until they go with gumball's for tires.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/long_term_road_tests/2001_lexus_is300_long_term_road_test+t-sporty_yet_reliable+page-4.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/sport_compacts/2007_mazdaspeed_3_road_test

Also, if you don't believe that a direct comparison of staight line performance from starting to stopping is credible, you've got a screw loose.

[rednofive]

Red - I had an E30 and an E36 325is. BMW lost me with the E46 cars, just refined all the fun out of them in my opinion. I like the MS3's "visceral" driving experience by comparison.

An E30 - cool! What'd that weigh? 2800 lbs or less?
I had a "roundel" magazine subscription for a bit and tons of folks were saying the same - the E46 was the start of the bloat and a lot wanted off the boat.

Every new 3-series since the E36 has come out with more grunt from nearly the same displacement but then you'd see the car was 300-400 lbs heavier and even more expensive.

"uh, thanks?" was always the feeling I had.

Visceral is a good description for our cars.
here's one other +... (no I'm not a fan-boy for our cars, but while were on the subject of +'s...)

everyone had something to prove when I was driving my red 4-door 325...
mini-vans, trucks, other sedans, sports compacts...
I know all of us BMW lovers are considers A$$holes, but after 3 years of driving it (and it was 16 years old when I sold it for nearly what I bought it for), I think I understand why - people just don't like people that drive nice cars in a sporty manner. they act like its a rub on them at every single turn.
Frankly I couldn't wait to get rid of the thing just so that every damn stop-light wasn't some social-ranking contest.
f-ing ridiculous.

The thing I love most about the MS3's has got to be that most people drive normally around it. Most people don't care or notice that is says mazdaspeed3 on the back in little letters.

often, the one's that do just look and see that I'm middle-age and don't even care to race me or go for "the kill"...

it kicks when it needs to and otherwise stays undercover.

good stuff.

[oaklandopen]

i just hate bimmer owners cuz i've always wanted one. but then again i can say the same for porsche, ferrari, and aston martin owners

and bmw's are like a dime a dozen around here, so i often find myself hating. and im not sure about the E46 codes and whatnot, but i would looooooove to find me an older m3 (that was like 240hp), or an M (that was the z3 with the hatchback)