Debate: downshifting vs. braking

[shaitsta]

Now I dont know what all of you guys do but Im curious to see how many of you guys downshift when slowing down instead of using the brakes.


The way I was taught, I downshift and do not waste the brakes.....but whenever i drive in older people's cars....usually 50 years old or so, they all brake and just put the car in neutral instead of using the gears to slow down.


Let me know what you do...

[axisboldaslove]

i downshift to slow down and then brake

[jbiird317]

depends on the situation, but generally i try to downshift once and gradually slow down rather than slamming on the brakes. it just makes sense in my mind.

[shaitsta]

yeah...well i dont mean slamming on the brakes...but i usually downshift with a little brake mixed in and come to a smooth stop

[jbiird317]

heel toe if you can

[jred321]

if you know how to properly downshift do it. if you downshift and drag the clutch don't. brakes are cheap and easy. clutches aren't.

[lanceam24]

i downshift when slowing into a turn or something. but at stoplights and stuff i coast then brake. in daily driving its pretty equal

[duy856]

heal toe.

[duy856]

oops i mean heel*

[mckraut]

i downshift when slowing into a turn or something. but at stoplights and stuff i coast then brake. in daily driving its pretty equal

Yeah, I do about the same thing. Downshift while coming off of a highway exit, but anywhere below 15mph and I'll take it out of gear and use the brakes.

[Chev Korbin]

I use a combination of both, depending on how I am driving. Imo, brakes are easy to replace so why not use them. I guess there are going to be drawbacks to both, as well as benefits. If there is no need to drive very aggressively use the brakes. if you need to be in a certain gear when exiting a corner than use the brakes to slow down as you approach and enough to down shift without popping the engine and then shift into the appropriate gear and power through/out of the corner. I think it comes down to a matter of experience and knowledge about ones car and how everything works together to maximize driving efficiency and develop skill. But that is just my opinion.

[H3br3w_Ham3r]

Ummm lets think about this one...... 70 bucks to replace brakes or untold amounts to fix a transmission. I'll use my breaks for what their designed for.

[robin2660]

How about engine braking but without downshifting, then braking when you need? I only downshift when I know I'm going to need a lower gear. That way I spare my clutch and my brakes, plus save gas.

[arkenzo]

downshifting from 5th to 4th is not going to hurt your transmission...downshifting from 6th to 3rd or 5 to 2nd and revving the engine really high, now that's a different story

[dxaveP5]

Heel toe most of time when i come to a turn or just enuf to slow down so that im in the same speed with the others when the light just turns green and im approaching.
but usually i get into neutral and just coast, and brake really light.

Isnt engine braking bad for the car?? from what ive learned and read they always say never downshift to slow the car down. i was taught heel toe, or just get into neutral and brake then downshift to appropriate gear.

[MikeHTally]

Downshifting won't hurt the tranny. My method is much the same, a mix of downshift and just let the engine slow the car, 'til the brakes are needed.

[arkenzo]

Isnt engine braking bad for the car?? from what ive learned and read they always say never downshift to slow the car down. i was taught heel toe, or just get into neutral and brake then downshift to appropriate gear.
I find it funny how some people are using the term "heel toe" as if it's some revolutionary new method to not "engine brake" when using "heel toe"...

Sorry but heel toe is still engine braking...........

[jbiird317]

I find it funny how some people are using the term "heel toe" as if it's some revolutionary new method to not "engine brake" when using "heel toe"...

Sorry but heel toe is still engine braking...........

engine braking yes, but heel-toe is a more efficient and less harmful way of downshifting. So if you can do it correctly, i recommend doing it.

[arkenzo]

engine braking yes, but heel-toe is a more efficient and less harmful way of downshifting. So if you can do it correctly, i recommend doing it.

i think that was rule of thumb back in the 90's and maybe early 2000....our ms3 clutch should be capable of taking a non-heel toe downshift just fine, as long as you don't dump the clutches, that is a big nono.

[jbiird317]

i dunno, i dont consider myself old school by any means (im only 24) but i think that heel-toe is just a better way to downshift. i know that mazda will tell you that this clutch and tranny are built to withstand a lot, but if you can go easy on it, why wouldnt you?

[PCspeed3]

I rip the E brake. If Im going under 35 or so i just use brakes, for a stop light i downshift 6th,4th 3rd usually.

[dxaveP5]

i dunno, i dont consider myself old school by any means (im only 24) but i think that heel-toe is just a better way to downshift. i know that mazda will tell you that this clutch and tranny are built to withstand a lot, but if you can go easy on it, why wouldnt you?

+1 to that.
xept im not 24.

[speed3guy]

I usually downshift... it just depends on what gear Im in on how many times I downshift. If Im in 6th.. then I downshift to 5th... apply some brake.. then to 3rd and apply even more brake. Very rarely do I downshift into 2nd. Only time I do is when Im stopping but the light turns green and I can go or theres no traffic.

[KZL_99ES]

whenever i see a stop sign or red light, i just throw it into neutral, coast, then brake.

i only downshift now when the roads are bad with snow or ice... helps from sliding around.

[pdqgp]

whenever i see a stop sign or red light, i just throw it into neutral, coast, then brake.

same here....I put her in Nuetral and coast and then use the brakes, as I approach the light or stopped/slowed cars, I'll prese the clutch and select my gear in prep for continuing on...tyically 2nd or 3rd depending on speed of course. brakes are best for stopping IMO.


i only downshift now when the roads are bad with snow or ice... helps from sliding around.

not me.....brakes are a lot easier to modulate when slowing vs engine braking....if you hit a slick spot, the engine rpms will cause slippage on the wheels. even if you're consistently smooth and safe, there will eventually be one time where you're not or the road is too icy. whatever works though.

[Silver Ecstasy]

It's a manual car, you're going to use the clutch regardless.

If you need to use the clutch to slow the car down by downshifting, while using the brakes, then do what you gotta do. Even auto transmissions downshift while you're slowing down. And the side effect felt is you can feel the lower gears being engaged as you press the brake. So I try to mimic it in a similar fashion to make the car work seamlessly with brakes and trans. When I had my GTO, it even mentioned that you should NOT ONLY use the brakes to slow the car down but the trans as well. Otherwise the brakes would prematurely overheat and lead to failure from the weight of the vehicle and the strain of putting the brakes to work too constantly.

Especially with it getting icier and snowier, it's not practical or possible to rev match and downshift a heavy distance between i'm going to actually turn. With traffic and whatnot, it doesn't always work out.

So what i'll do is, use the brakes to slow the car down, and downshift through a gear or two using the clutch to engage those lower gears. Then either downshift if needed during the slow/easy turn, or try to take the turn through the gear i'm in.

I typically use 6th gear a lot while i'm cruising. When I am approaching my normal right hander, i'll downshift+rev match (or double clutch it) from 6th to 4th, then once more to 3rd and use 3rd throughout the turn. With the weather getting nastier, I try to slow down more so and creep through that normal right hander in 3rd with very low power (rpms are sorta low in that gear during that turn). Or if I think the conditions will allow, i'll downshift into 2nd as i'm entering the turn if I know I need the power.

[happy and angry]

Ummm lets think about this one...... 70 bucks to replace brakes or untold amounts to fix a transmission. I'll use my breaks for what their designed for.I am about to drop some SCIENCE on your ass. Actually, on this entire thread, because some of the stuff being said here is a bit off (and I've been away from the forums for a while and sort of want to bust out SCIENCE).

In a manual, when you step off the throttle, the vehicle stays in gear and the fuel injectors shut off. No fuel is dumped into the cylinder on the compression stroke of the motor. The vehicle will slow down via engine or compression braking. Momentum drives you forward, some limited mechanical resistance (read: friction) helps slow you down, but the biggest force drawing energy out of the system (for all intents and purposes, let's think of the system as engine, transmission and drive wheels, connected and in gear) is the compression stroke of the motor.

In neutral, you simply have mechanical friction slowing down your car. In gear, you have compression helping out. Because the engine is still being turned by the momentum of the vehicle moving forward, the intake and compression cycles are still happening, but without any combustion. Air is pulled in, compressed, blown out, rinse and repeat. On a 2.0L 4 cyl motor with a 10:1 compression ratio (for example), you're taking 0.5 liters of air and compressing it down to 1/10th the size in each cylinder every two engine rotations, and that takes energy. Quite a lot, really, because you're turning the motor thousands of times a minute (at higher RPM's engine braking happens faster because the motor turns faster and compresses air at a faster rate). Compressing air takes a lot of energy, and this is the primary source of you slowing down when in gear and off throttle.

Now, is bad for the car? No. No it's not. Why would it be? Your drivetrain is designed to accelerate (from a stop, no less) a 3,100 pound vehicle up to 60 mph in about 6 seconds, and you think it can't take a similar (but much smaller) stress slowing down from 60 to (near) 0 in probably 20 or 25? Please. If you're rev-matching your shifts properly, you are doing no more stress to the drivetrain than normal opperation of the vehicle, no more stress than lightly applying the brakes when in gear. No one gets all worked up about stepping on the brakes in 6th on the highway and staying in gear, upset about the stress they are putting on their transmission. Why would they? Plus, the new smart automatics like in the Evo and the GT-R blip throttle and downshift for you as you slow down, or even as you coast, if your speed drops enough to trigger a downshift. Hell, even new smart manuals like in the new 350Z have a feature that rev-matches your downshifts for you, whether or not you are accelerating or slowing down.

What IS bad for the car is downshifting stupidly. Engine braking is NOT when you down shift by slowly easing out on the clutch, riding the friction point and using clutch wear to bleed momentum energy from the system and thus slow down. This wears the clutch and is dumb and bad and wrong, and anyone on here that does this should stop immediately.

If you're going to downshift, rev-match. An example: Let's say you're in 4th gear doing 60 km/h and want to go into 3rd to slow down. In 4th gear you are cruising at 2000 rpm. In 3rd at 60 km/h you know you're going to be at 3000 rpm. Clutch in. Spike the throttle until the engine is turning 3000 rpm (it doesn't take much gas, either). Clutch out. Don't even need to do it slowly, just smoothly, if you hit the rpm right. It'll just go smoothly into gear with nary a jerk or hesitation. From there, let off the gas, and let the engine brake for you.

Advantages of engine braking: you use less (read: zero) fuel when slowing down, where as when you clutch in idle throttle takes over to keep the engine turning. You are in gear and can accelerate out of a situation/react to things on the road faster, if you need to. You can better control speed in traffic situations.

I can't heel-toe this car because the gas pedal is too far back from the level of the brake pedal and my legs are too long, so when I'm slowing down (and you usually know when you're going to have to slow down far in advance) I anticipate having to slow down and downshift. I coast if I can, brake if I can't, and come of the brakes to spike the throttle to downshift before getting back on the brakes. The ride stays really smooth, no jerk going into the next gear and I'm smooth on/smooth off the brakes. I can do entire offramps without braking, I deal with rush hour highway traffic with very little use of the brakes, I downshift for going downhill to regulate speed, etc etc etc. I'm always in the right gear, and rarely actually have to use the brakes in my car except when coming to a complete stop.

[tiagotiago]

I'll use my brakes in 95% of the situations while doing heel-toe downshifts, I'll only do a bit of engine braking/coasting if I'm coming up to a red light I'm certain will change; that way I'll be in the right gear when the lights go green, and more importantly I probably never touched the brakes, so I didn't loose as much momentum and won't have to accelerate as hard.

I'm guessing engine braking from high speeds was probably a workaround done to keep from cooking the brakes in mountain roads in which brakes would be abused. It would make sense to do that in cars with marginal brakes but I don't see that happening in the ms3, tough if I was in a mountain road and the pedal started to go soft, I'd probably engine break a bit to let the brakes cool down.

In a racetrack, in slippery conditions, or just trying to be as absolutely smooth as possible, you can't just downshift take the clutch out and let the engine break, it upsets the car's attitude too much, so you need gentle applications of the brakes while rev-matching to keep the car nice, stable and predictable.

[lanceam24]

i guess its all about anticipation

[mckraut]

Good post man. This part in particular is excellent advice I think.



If you're going to downshift, rev-match. An example: Let's say you're in 4th gear doing 60 km/h and want to go into 3rd to slow down. In 4th gear you are cruising at 2000 rpm. In 3rd at 60 km/h you know you're going to be at 3000 rpm. Clutch in. Spike the throttle until the engine is turning 3000 rpm (it doesn't take much gas, either). Clutch out. Don't even need to do it slowly, just smoothly, if you hit the rpm right. It'll just go smoothly into gear with nary a jerk or hesitation. From there, let off the gas, and let the engine brake for you.

[happy and angry]

I'm guessing engine braking was probably a workaround done to keep from cooking the brakes in mountain roads in which brakes would be abused.What? No. It is not a "workaround" for anything, it is how the internal combustion engine works with a transmission. It is not a goal, it is simply a product of how cars work.


In a racetrack, in slippery conditions, or just trying to be as absolutely smooth as possible, you can't engine break, it upsets the car's attitude too muchNo it doesn't. No more than brakes do, anyway. Less, really, because there isn't a lot of "braking" force being generated through compression braking. Hell, on a racetrack people engine brake all the time. You brake in gear or hold gears to regulate speed all the time through corners, and if you are in gear and not on the throttle (this means even when actually using the brakes), engine braking is happening. And on slippery roads, you are not avoiding being in gear because engine braking "upsets the car's attitude", you are doing it to limit the resistive forces on the free turning of your wheels so you can maintain the ability to steer.

In my post above I mention what engine braking isn't and it sounds like that's what you are talking about, but no one who drives a manual car should ever, ever be doing that to their clutch. You wouldn't be doing that, would you? Surely not.

[Abilor]

Heel toe most of time when i come to a turn or just enuf to slow down so that im in the same speed with the others when the light just turns green and im approaching.
but usually i get into neutral and just coast, and brake really light.

Isnt engine braking bad for the car?? from what ive learned and read they always say never downshift to slow the car down. i was taught heel toe, or just get into neutral and brake then downshift to appropriate gear.

That's what my pappy taught me. Downshift at the right time, but use the brakes what they're there for. Heel/Toe for the advanced class.

[jbiird317]

http://kreations.kaptainmyke.com/cp/cpimg/headers/science.png

FYI for you happy and angry - for those that are big footed and struggling with heel-toeing these little pedals (like me), use the side of your foot rather than your heel. It seems to be just as effective

[happy and angry]

I've tried, but I'm not very smooth with it. When I try to rotate the outside edge of my foot towards the throttle pedal I end up pushing in on the brake pedal more and it makes for a jerky ride. I'm rarely in a situation where I need to trail brake and downshift heading into a corner, and there is always enough space for me to anticipate downshifting in traffic so it's not much of a problem for me. If I start tracking the car more I might cut an inch or two of travel out of the brake pedal and re-weld it back together with the two pedals more level so I can have finer toe control on the brake.

[Abilor]

I am about to drop some SCIENCE on your ass. Actually, on this entire thread, because some of the stuff being said here is a bit off (and I've been away from the forums for a while and sort of want to bust out SCIENCE).


Not so much science as sound engineering (speaking as an engineer)




What IS bad for the car is downshifting stupidly. Engine braking is NOT when you down shift by slowly easing out on the clutch, riding the friction point and using clutch wear to bleed momentum energy from the system and thus slow down. This wears the clutch and is dumb and bad and wrong, and anyone on here that does this should stop immediately.



AMEN.

[mazdaspeedster3]

Now I dont know what all of you guys do but Im curious to see how many of you guys downshift when slowing down instead of using the brakes.


The way I was taught, I downshift and do not waste the brakes.....but whenever i drive in older people's cars....usually 50 years old or so, they all brake and just put the car in neutral instead of using the gears to slow down.


Let me know what you do...

This is a no brainer and is probably already posted on this thread. Down shifting saves gas as it cuts fuel to the motor. Also, and probably the most important is it is safer to be in gear than not. There are a lot more movements to put the car in gear and go to get out of the way of an accident. If you use the engine and brakes in sequence you will always be prepared for the unknown and save gas... Win-Win!

[mckraut]

FYI for you happy and angry - for those that are big footed and struggling with heel-toeing these little pedals (like me), use the side of your foot rather than your heel. It seems to be just as effective

Good tip, thank you. With size 12-13 shoes, I do have heel/toe troubles.

[tiagotiago]

In my post above I mention what engine braking isn't and it sounds like that's what you are talking about, but no one who drives a manual car should ever, ever be doing that to their clutch. You wouldn't be doing that, would you? Surely not.

I agree with your first post in this thread and I agree with that statement, nobody should do that to their cars, but ideally nobody should do a lot of shit that they happen to do in the real world. Ideally all countries would have licence training and exams like the ones they have in Finland, and roads built like the autobahn, but in reality you have people in 3rd world countries that climb into a pile of junk they call a car and try to learn on the fly how to drive on pothole laden roads, possibly after having a few drinks and without bothering to go get a licence. The real world is so very far away from the ideal...

[happy and angry]

Well now you know better, and you can take this knowledge out into the real world and apply it to your driving and stop riding out on the clutch when you downshift.

[shaitsta]

haha amen to happy and angry.

Yeah i have found that as long as you rev match properly and dont ride on the clutch downshifting works fine....evne if you arent good at rev matching that's what the synchros are for

[miss_steele_msp]

Here goes. What is heel-toeing?

[blinduno]

generaly i down shift, but sometimes i like the brake, shift, brake, shift. it makes for a smoother stop i think. i like it when you stop, and the car doesnt even shift weight.

[dxaveP5]

Here goes. What is heel-toeing?

its basically braking, and then at the same time you clutch in,
revv match ->downshift and ur slowed down and uve downshifted at the same time.
now just practice and u'll be touge racing XD

[LukeP]

I read in a Toyota owner's manual that engine braking draws oil into the combustion chamber by nature of normal negative engine compression. It further said that this will consume oil, but it is normal to do so.

So if you want to burn oil in your combustion chamber, wear your clutch throw out bearing and friction plate, needlessly use your syncros or burn gasoline to match revs just to slow down, go ahead. But brakes don't fade that much unless you're on the track, especially in this beast. Downshifting to engine brake is unnecessary unless its particularily slick outside or you you need to slow down on a hill.

I find the coasting deceleration in the current gear to be sufficient in slow down, and then use the brakes for what they were designed for. Brake pads are cheap regular maintence.

For reference, I decelerate in the current gear, then clutchlessly disengage when idle is reached (the engine and the transmission are completely synced with no torque in either negative or positive direction). The gear lever literally falls out of gear with a stiff breath in any car I've driven at that point.

At lower speeds I use throttle to dissolve any engine torque in either positive or negative direction and clutchlessly disengage the gear I'm in, and coast on friction with minimal braking to stop. I consider the brake pedal to be a hot plate that I can't keep my foot on for more than 3 seconds, to make the rotors live longer.

[happy and angry]

The amount of oil drawn up the cylinder wall by vacuum (note: an engine running in vac is normal) is minimal, and normal. You are not operating your throwout bearing in a manner that is abnormal, or holding the clutch in for a long time and keeping it engaged, so additional wear is minimal (it is designed to shift gears, and you are shifting gears with it, my word). A rev-matched down shift isn't going to wear on the friction plate. Operating the shift lever does not engage the synchros in an abnormal manner (again, this is what they are designed to do). You burn less gas in a small throttle blip than you do coasting in neutral (you realize that engine breaking and the deactivation of your fuel injectors is the reason why manuals test ~1 mpg better in for fuel economy?).

Why are these concerns? Why is normal operation of a manual transmission bad? Why do people keep making up reasons to justify this silly idea that engine braking is physically damaging to the vehicle? What are your thoughts on sequential performance automatics that by nature must upshift and downshift through every gear, and which revmatch to downshift through gears for you as you slow down? By your logic are they not burning oil, wearing out the throw out bearing and friction plate, and needlessly engaging the synchros? Why is it that you think the owner's manual would describe these behaviours as normal, and that vehicle manufacturers and engineers would build transmissions (especially sequential boxes) and engines to function this way? Do you think it likely that they are aware of what you deem "unnecessary wear" and are perhaps unconcerned because these components are designed to be used in this way?

Your transmission is designed to last the life of your car. Proper, normal shifting and engine braking is normal operation for these components. You are worrying about nothing. It's the same school of thought as "If I skip shifting into second, I am extending the life of my transmission." No you aren't.

[Silver Ecstasy]

You guys are making me worried that I sometimes use the clutch when downshifting and slowing down with the brakes to engage the lower gear..

Like I'll keep it in gear and use the brakes to slow down. Once the rpms are too low, i'll push the clutch in and downshift, ease back off the clutch while still using the brakes. By the time i've approached the turn, i'll either use that gear or downshift in mid turn one more time with rev-matched assistance. Otherwise, I always rev-match. It's my braking approaches when I do it, or with this slipeery weather, i'll try to stabilize the car better rather than having too much inertia throw the car forward on slippery road.

[invertedcharlie]

This is a no brainer and is probably already posted on this thread. Down shifting saves gas as it cuts fuel to the motor. Also, and probably the most important is it is safer to be in gear than not. There are a lot more movements to put the car in gear and go to get out of the way of an accident. If you use the engine and brakes in sequence you will always be prepared for the unknown and save gas... Win-Win!

I was told the same thing by an experience mechanic, engine braking get rid of excess fuel in the motor...

[Circle9]

Save the clutch, use the brakes.

[F430TECH]

Heel and toe..all day every day...even if I am not using the brakes, when slowing my foot is automatically covering it, as I rotate my heel to blip or use the side of my foot (depends which shoes I have on Piloti's vs. Alpinestars). Now getting a smooth heel and toe, thats an art form, but i have lots of practice...all day every day...you guys should see my ex do it she may just be smoother than me...Siberiankiss here on the protege boards...

If your good and traffic has a good rythm you can usually get away with only using the brakes for the last 50ft or so coming to a stoplight.

Plus when engine braking there is no fuel going into the engine, whereas if you put it in nuetral and idle, there is. Top Gear proved it :-P

I also agree with happy and angry, when the engine is an range of RPM's the oil pressure is higher keeping it better lubricated.

I can't imagine driving any other way.

[happy and angry]

You guys are making me worried that I sometimes use the clutch when downshifting and slowing down with the brakes to engage the lower gear..

Like I'll keep it in gear and use the brakes to slow down. Once the rpms are too low, i'll push the clutch in and downshift, ease back off the clutch while still using the brakes. By the time i've approached the turn, i'll either use that gear or downshift in mid turn one more time with rev-matched assistance. Otherwise, I always rev-match. It's my braking approaches when I do it, or with this slipeery weather, i'll try to stabilize the car better rather than having too much inertia throw the car forward on slippery road.That's not that big a deal, but you realize you're still adding wear to the clutch by doing that? You can feel the car slow down as you clutch out through the friction point, right? You understand what is happening when you do that? The motor is turning slowly (at or near idle) and you are clutching into gear in a lower gear that wants to be running at a higher RPM, and as you get to the friction point the clutch wears against the flywheel as it brings the motor up to the appropriate RPM for the gear and speed you are moving at. The wear, when braking, happens across a smaller RPM range than just using the clutch because you're braking through the entire manoeuver which brings the speed (and thus the RPM the next gear is going to want to be at) of the vehicle down.

I have never found a need to really do that. I almost always have enough space between me and situations where I have to slow down that I can rev-match downshift and then brake through the gear, and if necessary come off the brake and do it again. I don't know that I'd worry about what you're doing, per se, but you should be aware that doing that is increasing clutch wear even if it is only minimally.

[Circle9]

If I do downshift, I rev-match

[coyfish]

So your downshifting without revmatching to save gas ??

If im approaching a stop I just leave it in gear as i slow down then pop it to neutral. Downshifting may not be bad but it does wear the clutch / engine just as normal driving does. As minimal as this is, I would rather wear the cheap brakes as much as possible than use my clutch / motor.

The engine brakes enough in the gear I was cruising in anyway. Say you are in 4rth just cruise in and your engine should slow you down enough until about 20 mph where you can tap the brakes.

[Circle9]

Unless I'm going to accelerate, I don't rev-match and downshift, I just put it in neutral and lightly press the brakes.

[Silver Ecstasy]

That's not that big a deal, but you realize you're still adding wear to the clutch by doing that? You can feel the car slow down as you clutch out through the friction point, right? You understand what is happening when you do that? The motor is turning slowly (at or near idle) and you are clutching into gear in a lower gear that wants to be running at a higher RPM, and as you get to the friction point the clutch wears against the flywheel as it brings the motor up to the appropriate RPM for the gear and speed you are moving at. The wear, when braking, happens across a smaller RPM range than just using the clutch because you're braking through the entire manoeuver which brings the speed (and thus the RPM the next gear is going to want to be at) of the vehicle down.

I have never found a need to really do that. I almost always have enough space between me and situations where I have to slow down that I can rev-match downshift and then brake through the gear, and if necessary come off the brake and do it again. I don't know that I'd worry about what you're doing, per se, but you should be aware that doing that is increasing clutch wear even if it is only minimally.

Yeah I definitely know it's putting on wear. My logic behind is was, it's ultimately going to happen regardless. Atleast it's not as bad as doing it constantly whenever downshifting like some people do. Realistically, you're gonna use the clutch and it's gonna wear. Hopefully by the time my first clutch replacement EVER happens, i'll be able to learn how to heel-toe.

I only will do it since my right foot will be tied up by braking and slowing the car down, so consequently, i'll have to use the left foot to use the clutch to engage in the gear i'll want or need as soon as i'll be turning.

[happy and angry]

Downshifting may not be bad but it does wear the clutch / engine just as normal driving does.Justify this position. Defend the idea that normal driving wear is somehow worse than, uh... normal driving wear, because that's what you just said. Explain how an engine running in vac and generating less heat as a result is something to be avoided but idle or acceleration are not. Defend the idea that an engaged clutch wears on the clutch somehow.

[happy and angry]

Yeah I definitely know it's putting on wear. My logic behind is was, it's ultimately going to happen regardless.See, if more people thought this way, people wouldn't be trying to do bizarre logical gymnastics to come up with the idea "BRAKES ARE CHEAPER." The clutch is a wear component on the car. Don't abuse it, try to minimize wear, and it will last the life of your car.

I know why you do it, I used to have the same problem. I'm generally too big to heel-toe when braking (although I could do it in a '99 Miata... go figure). Over time I've just learned to anticipate traffic better so I don't find myself having to do both, and I make sure to get into the right gear before a turn rather than during a turn. I drive to minimize clutch wear, but I know it will happen so I don't get upset when situations come up where I have to do what you do (or, when they happen, I just clutch in and brake, because they usually only happen at low speed anyway).

[Silver Ecstasy]

My main obstacle is that I drive 6 miles to work each day, and don't really drive often (Bought in April 08, only have 4300 miles currently). Whenever I do drive, it's through city streets only with a lot of idiot drivers in close quarters, or traffic. So when I have to downshift-rev match, floor it to pass someone to avoid an accident, only to find out i'm coming into my right-hander at the stop light a LITTLE too fast, I'll have to brake and utilize the clutch to properly access the right brake. (I know traffic can be scary in Ottawa too, I have family there and in Hamilton, ON).

I know that brakes are cheaper, but I really don't think you should be utilizing the brakes ONLY to stop the car. As you've eloquently put it, the engine and transmission work together in harmony. Use the brakes, but keep the car in gear.

Automatic transmissions do not fall into Neutral to stop.

And if you only utilize the brakes, you will overheat them after extended stops (or hard stops) in neutral only.

What Happy&Angry is saying is, don't sit and freak out about using the clutch. You will HAVE to use the clutch. Just, don't ride the hell out of it either. Be smart, but don't over complicate things.

[coyfish]

Justify this position. Defend the idea that normal driving wear is somehow worse than, uh... normal driving wear, because that's what you just said. Explain how an engine running in vac and generating less heat as a result is something to be avoided but idle or acceleration are not. Defend the idea that an engaged clutch wears on the clutch somehow.

I have no idea what your trying to say here. . .

Everytime you engage the clutch whether you are upshifting or downshifting you wear it down a little. The same goes for pretty much anything in a car.

Clutch / Engine = expensive

Brakes = easy / cheaper

Keep in mind when I say brakes I don't mean slam it in nuetral at 60 mph and ride your brakes all the way to stop. I drift in with my car in gear and tap the brakes at around 20 mph. So yes I do let the engine brake but I dont downshift every gear to slow down. . .

[mazdaspeedster3]

Well you should be down shifting to slow down.

[F430TECH]

If your really good at heel and toe and can match the revs correctly you will not wear hardly anything, if anything at all from the clutch.

Still brakes will always wear faster no matter what. The way I look at it is I heel and toed ALWAYS on my Speed Protege and at 70,000 miles the clutch was still perfect when I got rid of it.

Trust me far more wear occurs when you dump it on a takeoff, or get on the giggle pedal all the way through the rev range and its struggling to keep those 280 ft/lbs restrained.

FACT : Clutch in a F430GT Car in ALMS lasts a whole season. Brakes last 12 hours.

Granted the new Clutches are Carbon though :-P Pretty uhmazing it weighs like NOTHING...

[Silver Ecstasy]

They should make a clutch that never wears, and a battery that never dies. One day..

[coyfish]

They should make a clutch that never wears, and a battery that never dies. One day..

And an engine that never blows

[Silver Ecstasy]

You can typically contribute to the engine not blowing up (proper maintenance). Engines typically wouldn't blow up if it were maintained and used properly.

Batteries and clutches will wear no matter how often you recharge/replace them. There is no way to prolong them. Plus, an engine is meant to run and run it shall. Without proper air, fuel and oil circulation, then it fails. There arn't any perfect scenarios involved where a battery or clutch will be prolonged.

[eg6motion]

well, if anyone remembers, basic drivers ed teaches most people to avoid downshifting until the engine reaches around 1500rpm or so. IMO, for daily driving, there is no need to play racecar and rev-match/heel-toe downshift for anything above 1500rpm really. It does save slightly more gas to leave it in gear and have the injectors cut off, but when you can roll further in neutral without the engine-braking then its really moot. I honestly used to do this in my civic at almost every stop. Rev-match, downshift through each gear...and my buddy still does this. honestly though, he looks like a giant tool doing it in day-to day traffic. This is my .02, flame or not. Just a thought. And anyway you slice it, it still means more rpm on your engine, more clutch use, and more work... so I tend to coast to a stop and rev match only if the light changes or I need to move again before coming to a complete stop. If you are racing, driving "spirited" or feel like playing wannabe takumi, you can basically throw all that out the window and plan on rev-matching and braking.

[eg6motion]

You can typically contribute to the engine not blowing up (proper maintenance). Engines typically wouldn't blow up if it were maintained and used properly.

Batteries and clutches will wear no matter how often you recharge/replace them. There is no way to prolong them. Plus, an engine is meant to run and run it shall. Without proper air, fuel and oil circulation, then it fails. There arn't any perfect scenarios involved where a battery or clutch will be prolonged.

you could put a 6 puck on a 70hp 80's civic :)

[coyfish]

There arn't any perfect scenarios involved where a battery or clutch will be prolonged.

My uncles toyota celica has 220K miles. Only thing replaced was a fuel pump and the A/C unit. A normal clutch should last a while.

[dandydaniel]

there is way too much to read to try and chime in relevance to the topic. so i'll just answer the question at hand with my own opinion.

i'm not sure about the rest of you but the majority of my friends who drive standard shift don't know what the hell they are doing. they learned how to get the car going in 1st and they also learned that the clutch goes in and out letting you change gears. thats about all they learned. I hate sitting in my friend's cars when they are just downshifting and either dumping the clutch, or slowing it back out (reduces the amount of jerking when you don't rev-match) and then have them tell me that what they are doing isn't damaging their clutch. the fact that the engine speed is significantly greater @ 40mph in 3rd than it is in 2nd gear should be enough for people to realize that their clutch is the thing that is making up for that difference and slowing you down.

In most if not all regular driving scenarios, there is no need to downshift if you are coming to a complete stop aka a red light. coast in your current gear until your rev's drop to about 1.5 - 2k rpm and pop it into neutral (all of this while putting light pressure on your breaks). By the time your revs have dropped to 1.5 - 2k, you shouldn't have ever had to slam on the breaks at all. this is the way I was taught and it is the only way that REALLY makes sense. I would only downshift to slow down if I knew I'd be getting back into motion rather soon per say going 40mph and having to slow down to 20mph and then get going again. just my .02

[dxaveP5]

+1

[dandydaniel]

My uncles toyota celica has 220K miles. Only thing replaced was a fuel pump and the A/C unit. A normal clutch should last a while.

same. my friend's dad has an older prelude with 209,xxx on the clock. still running on the stock clutch and it barely slips.

[happy and angry]

I have no idea what your trying to say here. . .

Everytime you engage the clutch whether you are upshifting or downshifting you wear it down a little. The same goes for pretty much anything in a car.

Clutch / Engine = expensive

Brakes = easy / cheaper

Keep in mind when I say brakes I don't mean slam it in nuetral at 60 mph and ride your brakes all the way to stop. I drift in with my car in gear and tap the brakes at around 20 mph. So yes I do let the engine brake but I dont downshift every gear to slow down. . .I understand that using components of a vehicle wears them, but the engine and transmission are designed to upshift and downshift and engine brake. That's what they are there for. We do more damage to our drivetrain by accelerating hard and slipping the clutch in first to get a good launch than you could ever do with 100,000 extra rev-matched downshifts.

Avoiding one of the design features of a standard combustion engine under the guise of "saving the clutch" is just kind of strange. We're talking about a design feature which smart automatics are starting to do more and more because of the fuel economy and safety benefits (it is always better to be in the right gear). If it was a serious wear and tear concern, engineers would not be putting time and effort into designing electronics that will do it for us.

[clicknext]

I leave in gear and brake to slow down until 1k rpm, and then go to neutral and brake the rest of the way. I can't see it making a really huge difference on the brakes, and even if it does it's a simple matter of replacing the pads a little bit sooner.

[coyfish]

If it was a serious wear and tear concern, engineers would not be putting time and effort into designing electronics that will do it for us.

I understand your point but in this quote what do you mean? You referring to automatics because you still have to rev match in a manual unless you want to slip a disc in your neck.

Also how does downshifting save gas? You have to blip the throttle to rev match which would use gas . . .

[wisniaPl]

im dowshifting and dont give shit that how its supossse to be

[LukeP]

deactivation of your fuel injectors is the reason why manuals test ~1 mpg better in for fuel economy?).

What are your thoughts on sequential performance automatics that by nature must upshift and downshift through every gear, and which revmatch to downshift through gears for you as you slow down? By your logic are they not burning oil, wearing out the throw out bearing and friction plate, and needlessly engaging the synchros?

Automatics do not have clutches, syncros, or gears in the conventional fashion. When throttle is lifted in an automatic, the hydromechenical force applied to the torque converter is relieved and the engine is effectively offloaded. Under no load, and depending on how much 'looseness' is designed into the torque converter, the car coasts and does not downshift until it reaches much slower speeds or throttle is applied. The idle hydro mechanical force is what causes the car to crawl when the brakes are lifted.

Automatics also have a series of sequential locking ring gears (oddly named after planets) that are not conventional locking teeth selector-engaged gears as found in manual or DSG/sequential transmissions, but a different system of gears that close together through hydraulic force. See this article for more information. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission3.htm

Also, the common increase in mileage on a manual is almost entirely because of weight decrease and less energy required to turn the ring gear assembly of an automatic, and also the loss in the torque converter. There are EPA estimates of improved economy on automatics that have locking torque converters with taller cruising final drive ratios.

Also, 'normal operating wear' on a transmission is never wrecking it, but over the course of 150,000 miles a car that has been downshifted to stop at every red light is going to show significantly more syncro and clutch wear than a car that was not downshifted every time. I still use engine braking, I just don't find it necessary to downshift. The injector cut in the cruising gear I was using seems perfectly adequate to slow the car down, then the gentle use of minor braking after idle would be, in my opinion, the ideal technique to stop the car with the least amount of use of any component on the car. The majority in this thread seem to prefer this technique aswell.


im dowshifting and dont give shit that how its supossse to be

The very nature of this thread is arguing symantecs! Technically you're "supposed" to double clutch an unrevematched downshift. However I spent 288,000 kms on my 94 Civic never doing it once, just pulling the lever into 2nd before every corner. The transmission shows no signs of caring. The lesson is that automotive stuff is made pretty good.

[Gmac03]

As far as heel toe goes for this car. I can't do it. Somebody suggested the side of the foot, i'll give this a try, but the pedals just aren't set up for it. Sad really, cause when I climbed into the RX8 r3 the other day, they were defintately set up for it.

Gmac

[Silver Ecstasy]

The very nature of this thread is arguing symantecs! Technically you're "supposed" to double clutch an unrevematched downshift. However I spent 288,000 kms on my 94 Civic never doing it once, just pulling the lever into 2nd before every corner. The transmission shows no signs of caring. The lesson is that automotive stuff is made pretty good.

Technically double clutching is rev-matching in a way? Clutch In, neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, downshift, clutch out?

[happy and angry]

Also how does downshifting save gas? You have to blip the throttle to rev match which would use gas . . .When you clutch in and blip the throttle, you burn a very small amount of fuel. It takes almost no gas to increase the revs of the motor when it is not in gear because the pistons and other moving internals of a motor by themselves weigh almost nothing and it takes very little energy to get them moving faster. Where as when you are clutched in and coasting in gear the injectors are shut off completely. For several seconds, in most cases.
I still use engine braking, I just don't find it necessary to downshift. The injector cut in the cruising gear I was using seems perfectly adequate to slow the car down, then the gentle use of minor braking after idle would be, in my opinion, the ideal technique to stop the car with the least amount of use of any component on the car. The majority in this thread seem to prefer this technique aswell.If it makes much of a difference, I generally don't downshift beyond 3rd when coming to a stop and only go to 2nd when I'm going to be making a corner. Going from a 6th gear highway to a stop at a light at the end of an onramp, there's too much gear to really engine brake down much before stalling. Most of my downshifting is between 6th to 3rd. Also, the major point I am trying to make here is that no, engine braking isn't bad (the ops question) because a lot of people seem to think it is, and also to implore (beg) people to not ride the clutch out on downshifts to slow down but to rev match properly instead.

[robin2660]

I leave in gear and brake to slow down until 1k rpm, and then go to neutral and brake the rest of the way. I can't see it making a really huge difference on the brakes, and even if it does it's a simple matter of replacing the pads a little bit sooner.

This is the least stress on the car of all the methods, guaranteed.

[dandydaniel]

This is the least stress on the car of all the methods, guaranteed.

+11111111111

[jbiird317]

screw the whole "whats best for the car" argument, I like downshifting and heel-toeing cuz it makes me feel like a racecar driver (wrc) lol

[F430TECH]

hahah I can shift gears without even using the clutch...

havent tried it in the Speed 3 yet beccause of the sometimes vagueness of the cable tranny. But on the Speed Protege...alll the time...

Oh and in a Formula Mazda...one of these...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/272826378_bc7a2d650f.jpg?v=0

Which I have driven a few times...you dont use the clutch at all once in motion as its just a little lift off the throttle to upshift and heel and toe without clutch on the downshift. Its not a sequential box either its H-pattern. The gearbox is actually from an old VW BUS hahahah.

Car weighs 1300lbs had a 13B engine in the back rated to about 180hp...slicks and wings obviously...my kart accelerates quicker and corners harder, but this has higher top speeds...135-140 flat out..can be geared for 150+ though but most tracks dont require it...

Just saying if your REALLY REALLY good you dont need to use the clutch at all...upshifting OR downshifting..

[eg6motion]

hahah I can shift gears without even using the clutch...

havent tried it in the Speed 3 yet beccause of the sometimes vagueness of the cable tranny. But on the Speed Protege...alll the time...

Oh and in a Formula Mazda...one of these...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/272826378_bc7a2d650f.jpg?v=0

Which I have driven a few times...you dont use the clutch at all once in motion as its just a little lift off the throttle to upshift and heel and toe without clutch on the downshift. Its not a sequential box either its H-pattern. The gearbox is actually from an old VW BUS hahahah.

Car weighs 1300lbs had a 13B engine in the back rated to about 180hp...slicks and wings obviously...my kart accelerates quicker and corners harder, but this has higher top speeds...135-140 flat out..can be geared for 150+ though but most tracks dont require it...

Just saying if your REALLY REALLY good you dont need to use the clutch at all...upshifting OR downshifting..

I wouldn't shift without a clutch on any tranny that has helical cut gears...thats asking for trouble. Straight cut is a different story.

[F430TECH]

You can manage in a helical cut gearbox without grinding a single time if you can rev match accurately. Just tug gently on the gearshift as the revs get close it will slot right in...

[Aricjm15]

downshifting saves on gas by triggering the fuel injectors to turn off.

[lynnriderm6]

i use a mix depends like ovb traffic im on the breaks somtimes i use both somtimes if i know a exit is coming up ill downshift but ya

[dxaveP5]

yea i think that the answer to this thread question should be "use a bit of both, depending on the situation."
if ur hardcore touge master - heel toe ur ass off
if your not ^^^ - downshift and drive however you wish, its your car do whatever you want. if u have the money to replace the clutch from heel toes or watever, then thats good, if not....well tough shit dude.

[jbiird317]

im also surprised no one has said this already, but engine breaking is also safer, just in case someone cuts you off or something unexpected, its a lot easier to react if your car is in gear rather than in neutral