To those in the know...What should I do?

[K. Soze]

I'm looking for advice or general knowledge. I will be getting my car dyno tuned next spring and I hope to have it tuned at 11 or 12 psi. I know this is a questionable boost setting and let's face it...kinda scary.

My question is, what should I have to keep it as safe as possible? I am going to make sure I have the J&S Safeguard installed before I try this endeavor. I'm already running 9.5-10 psi right now. I'm a little nervous pushing it to 12 psi, but I thought I would get everyones opinion on what I should have to ensure I keep it as safe as possible.


Mods: (engine related)

Perrin FMIC
GHL Turbo-back
AEM Cold Air
SS AFC v.2
PG intake manifold, P&P
Greddy boost controller (so I can actually run 12 psi)

[low_psi]

Get some 440cc WRX injectors and make sure the J&S is keeping things in order.

You really don't have much else to do, other than pray ;)

[SeR_Cyclops]

the J&S will help alot.

[zuku26]

try copper one step colder plugs with a tight gap to help minimize the chance of detonation.

[K. Soze]

Oh yea, I have the NGK copper V-Power plugs (ZFR6F-11) gapped at .32

Praying is something I might have to do. I don't know if I have the balls to run 12 psi.

[Rush]

Get some 440cc WRX injectors and make sure the J&S is keeping things in order.
Larger injectors aren't really needed at that boost level. They won't hurt, but .. they really aren't necessary. Save the $150 and spend it elsewhere!

[mspHtown]

at the higher boost levels (or even stock for that matter), you really need to watch how you drive the car.

do not boost the shit out of 5th gear.

do not over redline (biggie)

try to minimize driving at WOT... meaning dont go nuts 24/7





also, definitely make sure you have a good tune. you do not want any lean spots. the j and s is a good safeguard (hence the name!), definitely get it installed.

there is a sensitivity knob on the j and s unit. i would recommend staying on the more sensitive side just for precaution.

[Professor MSP]

Seeing as you are getting dyno tuned, you might want to consider installing a progressive water/methanol injection system before doing so.

[Aricjm15]

Make sure the dyno operator knows what he/she is doing, knows what ping sounds like. Take baby steps, dont just crank the boost and pray, go little by little to see if the car has enough fuel to support it. I have seens proteges take more, and I have also seen them blow at a lot less. Good luck.

[K. Soze]

I appreciate all the advice. I'm going to definitely take it slow. I know how fragile this car is. Boosting in 5th is a no-no, I drive like a grandpa most of the time, and I when I am WOT I try to not flirt with anything past redline. I've thought about water/meth, but have decided against it.

If the tuner gets to doing his thing and he tells me it might not be a smart idea to go that high with boost, I'll keep it conservative. 12 psi would be nice, but if I can get good numbers at 10 psi, so be it. BTW, I'll be taking it to P&L Motorsports in Franklin Park, IL. This was a suggestion by Ken and some of the other guys at Protege Garage.

[Aricjm15]

Jorge at P&L is an awesome guy and an awesome tuner. Just make sure he knows that the unit does not tune in real time.

[slo03.5msp]

Tune it yourself. It's not tough it just takes time.

[protegerider]

get some forged internals, if you really want to be safe

[K. Soze]

Forged internals are down the road. I'm talking about stock block.


Aric, I heard he was good. Ken and Jason were raving about him and the place. I feel if I have everything in place and get a good tune, I can make it last a while.

[Fudgie]

Why no meth? Are you the one that works for Labonte?




I appreciate all the advice. I'm going to definitely take it slow. I know how fragile this car is. Boosting in 5th is a no-no, I drive like a grandpa most of the time, and I when I am WOT I try to not flirt with anything past redline. I've thought about water/meth, but have decided against it.

If the tuner gets to doing his thing and he tells me it might not be a smart idea to go that high with boost, I'll keep it conservative. 12 psi would be nice, but if I can get good numbers at 10 psi, so be it. BTW, I'll be taking it to P&L Motorsports in Franklin Park, IL. This was a suggestion by Ken and some of the other guys at Protege Garage.

[Knox Joe]

I run 14 psi, stock engine.

Methanol, J&S, and basically all supporting mods. AFRs are at 10 - 10.8 at 14 psi, with no signs of detonation. Running 50/50 meth. Stock injectors.

I have 440's, but they weren't needed, as Rush said.

[K. Soze]

Do you think methanol helped you out a lot? I used to work for a water/meth company, but quit. I was always up in the air about it. I know all the benefits, but just don't know if I wanna do it.

[Knox Joe]

I don't know if it so much helped, but there's no way in hell I'd run that much boost wihtout it. At lower psi, I think it actually may have bogged me down, but that was probably in the tune, and the meth controller settings. I played with the settings a bit, and when I have it come in later it works much better, so a lot of it is the tune I believe.

But man, with the meth, I can hit that switch, and nail 14 psi, and who ever I was playing with is usually bus lengths behind.

[jamesk]

id go a stage colder in spark plugs and would install the 440cc injectors over 10 psi. its always better to run a lower duty cycle when you count on it the most. theres no point on going border line with the injectors. if the engine blows because one of the injectors fail or max out, then that was a engine failure you could of prevented.

id also think about a new turbo if your gonna go forged anyway later. lol

[low_psi]

Larger injectors aren't really needed at that boost level. They won't hurt, but .. they really aren't necessary. Save the $150 and spend it elsewhere!

Some people have logged 90%+ IDC at even 10psi. AFRs may be OK, but at 12psi the injectors are very overworked from the datalogs I have seen.

[K. Soze]

Injectors are def. on the list now. Thanks everyone.

[SeR_Cyclops]

I don't know if it so much helped, but there's no way in hell I'd run that much boost wihtout it. At lower psi, I think it actually may have bogged me down, but that was probably in the tune, and the meth controller settings. I played with the settings a bit, and when I have it come in later it works much better, so a lot of it is the tune I believe.

But man, with the meth, I can hit that switch, and nail 14 psi, and who ever I was playing with is usually bus lengths behind.

how hard is the meth to tune and get running properly?

[slo03.5msp]

I know I was at 90-93% duty cycle at 10lbs of boost. I was and am still on the stock pump though. 14psi is doable as a daily driver without meth. I have been doing it for the past 2 years. It's all in the tune. Don't be scared these motors can take more than people think.

[Knox Joe]

how hard is the meth to tune and get running properly?

I ended up getting a progressive controller from Labonte, to control the meth. It kicks on at 5, and it's set for 5-15psi.

Right now the timing isn't tuned, because the Unichip tuner here is a douche, so it's not tuned for meth yet. I really just use the meth to be able to run 14psi, and not worry about it. The methanol will richen up your tune substantially, so you would want to account for that.

So basically instead of using meth to be able to advance timing, I am using it to richen out the mix, and keep temps down, on higher boost.

It will get tuned for it though after Christmas.

[K. Soze]

Well, here's what I've gathered so far from this thread:


--Tune to have more of a rich AFR throughout the powerband
--440 injectors
--Have the J&S hooked up ready to rock come tune time

Am I missing anything else? The rich tune makes sense and the injectors I didn't think of until now. I always thought they were capable.

[jamesk]

stage 7 spark plugs!!!!!

[K. Soze]

Oh, and a step colder. Thanks, I almost forgot.

[Captain KRM P5]

walbro pump, for the money it can't hurt

[dandan2]

whats wrong with boosting in 5th?

[special--k]

and what is a J&S safeguard? anyone have a link, or care to give some information on what it does?

[Rogue]

if you run it too rich, you'll end up robbing power. You could probably tune the AFRs to 12 and still be save.

[jamesk]

boosting in 5th at low rpms just puts alot of excess load on the engine. thats all. its like riding a bike. try to go up hill on the last gear. its too much strain on your legs.

at high rpms though its fine. just in low rpms something could happen to the motor. but that is general awareness for any car. down shift when need torque.

as for the j and s safeguard. it is a knock sensor. when the sensor sees knock, it retards the ignition timing. you can adjust the sensitivity on the sensor as well.

[jamesk]

and ya what rouge said, dont run too rich. thats not necessairly good for the engine either. run between 11 and 12 , and that is being safe.

[Rogue]

didn't J&S also make a fuel cut defender?

[special--k]

knock? meaning?

[low_psi]

I know I was at 90-93% duty cycle at 10lbs of boost. I was and am still on the stock pump though. 14psi is doable as a daily driver without meth.

You just proved you don't understand simple tuning concepts. 90%+ IDCs are not safe. If you're seeing these IDCs at 10psi, what makes you think 14psi is acceptable? Fuel pumps don't have any effect on the capabilities of fuel injectors.

Just because your motor hasn't blown up, doesn't mean its safe or reccomended.

special--K: knock is detonation and/or preignition.

[jamesk]

90 percent and over will make the fuel injectors become "static". what that means is the injectors will constantly be open and never close. one day there gonna give out and wont give out fuel any more or would not respond as quick as it supposed to. therefore having a lean situation, then cause detonation, then blow up, then car wont drive, then the driver will get out of the car and call a tow truck home, then kick himself in the head.

[SeR_Cyclops]

your injectors can be maxing out but your pump can be giving plenty of fuel.

[jamesk]

there injectors are still gonna be maxed out? who cares if you dont need any more fuel, its not safe to run that high of a duty cycle. parts break when pushed to their limits, enough said.

when tuning when fuel, the fuel system should not be close to its limits, it should be conservative, not to its limits cause thats to risky to count on.

[K. Soze]

No doubts. I'll probably just get 440's and a Walbro pump while I'm at it. Tuning for 11'ish AFR's sound right?

[Captain KRM P5]

11s are very safe for a stock engine

[K. Soze]

Alright, 11's it is. 12 psi is coming up, then.

Ken, you'll be getting an order for some injectors and fuel pump sometime soon. Also, you know anyone who can hook up the J&S on my car?

[ND4MSP]

you need a flux capacitor. So when she blows you can go back in time and get a forged block. Lol just kidding dude, good luck

[Captain KRM P5]

Alright, 11's it is. 12 psi is coming up, then.

Ken, you'll be getting an order for some injectors and fuel pump sometime soon. Also, you know anyone who can hook up the J&S on my car?

good person to talk to is steve at nsn motorsports about the J&S

[MSP2003.5_Nick]

All I'm gonna say is put a decent road tune on it yourself....... but there is no substitute for a dyno tune. A wideband isn't the only thing you need to tune a car. Get it professionally done before you blow it up.

Just an opinion of my own experience

[K. Soze]

Dyno tuned for sure. I do have a wideband but I'd rather have it tuned on the dyno.