Msp Vs. ???

[special--k]

I want to know what i need to do to my MSP in order to match up with a MS3 or GTI.

I got smoked yesterday on the highway by a stock looking GTI, so again, what would it take to match up with him. Or even beat him.

Edit:

What about a Saturn Red Line?

[2.0t03speed]

are you stock?

[Velocifero]

I want to know what i need to do to my MSP in order to match up with a MS3 or GTI.

I got smoked yesterday on the highway by a stock looking GTI, so again, what would it take to match up with him. Or even beat him.

If you got smoked by a stock "looking" GTI then your not driving well or he is in fact chipped and putting down a lot more power than you think. It is easy for them to get a ecu flash and make mucho power in stock trim. Are you sure it wasn't an R32?

[baconbitz]

Before the afc I ran a chipped mkv GTI from about a 30 roll, stayed dead even with him the entire time. We both agreed I would have had him had we gone from 40. Mods (power ones at least): Corksport Exhaust, SRI, PG Intake Mani, hardpipes and bov don't really count.

After the afc I'm pretty sure I would pull a car or two pretty easy, haven't run anyone since then though and that was about 2 years ago.

The MS3 will destroy you, don't even try. You might have a chance with exhaust, intake mani, fmic, afc, and 10psi but I wouldn't bet on it.

[mx-p5]

Agreed with above. If you got smoked, either you suck at driving, or he has WAY more under the hood than he lets on by the outisde.

Sleeper FTW!!!


I just got smoked by a Pruis and Versa in my Pro5. Anything i can do?

[magnumP5]

MKV GTis run just about 200 whp with just an intake and you'll need upwards or 225-230 whp to match a stock MS3. Believe it or not Proteges have a decent weight advantage over most newer cars.

[Ricktalife]

I just got smoked by a Pruis and Versa in my Pro5. Anything i can do?

LOL!!!!11

[baconbitz]

I just got smoked by a Pruis and Versa in my Pro5. Anything i can do?

Race hondas!


Magnum- the weight definitely shines through sometimes.

[Knox Joe]

you'll need upwards or 225-230 whp to match a stock MS3. Believe it or not Proteges have a decent weight advantage over most newer cars.

That's weird. I doubt I am pushing that much power (but who knows), and my MSP is faster than my Speed6. If a Speed6 runs a quicker 1/4 mile time than an MS3, then my MSP should be faster than an MS3.

[DiscreetSpeed]

I would say in my opinion done well is...
FMIC, Intake, TBE, Tuned, and 12-15 psi = walking them easily.

[special--k]

at the time i was 100% stock.

Isnt the GTI like 2.5T and pushing more boost then a MSP... not to mention smaller. So it makes sence that he beat me. Also, it was not from stopped, it was from around 35 Km/h

[special--k]

Also, i guess i did exagurate a little. I did not get smoked, but he did pull away in the long run

[baconbitz]

at the time i was 100% stock.

Isnt the GTI like 2.5T and pushing more boost then a MSP... not to mention smaller. So it makes sence that he beat me. Also, it was not from stopped, it was from around 35 Km/h

The mkv's are pretty heavy iirc, and yes they run higher boost levels but they have pretty small turbos.

[zuku26]

That's weird. I doubt I am pushing that much power (but who knows), and my MSP is faster than my Speed6. If a Speed6 runs a quicker 1/4 mile time than an MS3, then my MSP should be faster than an MS3.

The MS6 does better then a MS3, Maybe the AWD helps it grip better, cause you would think the lighter MS3 should walk the MS6 since the motors the same. I could see the MSP taking the MS6 though once agian do to the weight issues, that big clunky AWD can be a hinderance

[MAZDA_SPEED]

Before the afc I ran a chipped mkv GTI from about a 30 roll, stayed dead even with him the entire time. We both agreed I would have had him had we gone from 40. Mods (power ones at least): Corksport Exhaust, SRI, PG Intake Mani, hardpipes and bov don't really count.

After the afc I'm pretty sure I would pull a car or two pretty easy, haven't run anyone since then though and that was about 2 years ago.

The MS3 will destroy you, don't even try. You might have a chance with exhaust, intake mani, fmic, afc, and 10psi but I wouldn't bet on it.

right!!!!!!! at what boost? maybe the driver of the GTI was a dumbass...b/c even with those mod you arent breaking 200hp

STOCK: 200hp GTI>170hp MSP
w/Chipped: GTI 256hp and 303 TQ> msp 180 -/+
not a chance my friend..;)
http://www.goapr.com/VW/products/ecu_upgrade_mkvgti.html

[baconbitz]

right!!!!!!! at what boost? maybe the driver of the GTI was a dumbass...b/c even with those mod you arent breaking 200hp

STOCK: 200hp GTI>170hp MSP
w/Chipped: GTI 256hp and 303 TQ> msp 180 -/+
not a chance my friend..;)
http://www.goapr.com/VW/products/ecu_upgrade_mkvgti.html

Call me out all you want but I stayed even with him. I had 3 cars of witnesses behind me as well. I don't know what boost he was running but he said it was chipped. Other than that he had coils and a set of chrome A8 wheels.

[Knox Joe]

I walked an Evo from a roll, so anything is possible with the mighty MSP!

[sandspeed]

mbc set to 10psi, split second afc and get rid of the stock exhaust or at least put a cutout after the dp

[speed3ster]

My MSP would smoke that GTI!

[jamesk]

who cares how much boost the gti does stock, its a ko2 turbo.

[baconbitz]

who cares how much boost the gti does stock, its a ko2 turbo.

Bingo, I've seen hair dryer's that move more air :)

[Donas64]

I got pwned by a yaris...no lie.

[shane02pro5]

They are heavy too so..
edit>the gti not the yaris

[baconbitz]

I got pwned by a yaris...no lie.

Pwned in terms of gas mileage?

[Donas64]

Pwned in terms of gas mileage?

pwned in terms of the yaris pulled on my stock P5. Granted it was modded but dang. Talk about embarrassment. My sister has a yaris and while a good looking super efficient car, they are sloooow! Which is saying something cuz I drive a P5.

[Ricktalife]

is it true that fmic's make our cars lose a little bit of the "peppiness"?

edit: as compared to smic's?

[baconbitz]

pwned in terms of the yaris pulled on my stock P5. Granted it was modded but dang. Talk about embarrassment. My sister has a yaris and while a good looking super efficient car, they are sloooow! Which is saying something cuz I drive a P5.

Lemme guess, red yaris with a tall asian dude behind the wheel?

[baconbitz]

is it true that fmic's make our cars lose a little bit of the "peppiness"?

edit: as compared to smic's?

Yup, more piping means it takes more time for air to make it into the engine.

[Ricktalife]

well that sucks. i love the look of fmic's on our cars

[Knox Joe]

Yup, more piping means it takes more time for air to make it into the engine.

(encourage


And you've tried both systems, SMIC w/ piping, and FMIC?

I have...


With the proper sized FMIC core and piping routing a FMIC will not make a noticeable difference in spool time, or throttle response.

[dandan2]

dont feel bad! i have the 626 mani and fmic at stock boost with mild leak and got smoked by a full bolt on mildly built civic hatch with a gsr swap!

[MAZDA_SPEED]

Call me out all you want but I stayed even with him. I had 3 cars of witnesses behind me as well. I don't know what boost he was running but he said it was chipped. Other than that he had coils and a set of chrome A8 wheels.

nah, no worries, not a big deal to me, you probably did keep up

[MAZDA_SPEED]

My MSP would smoke that GTI!

(freak) cool

[special--k]

is it true that fmic's make our cars lose a little bit of the "peppiness"?

edit: as compared to smic's?

yes, its takes longer for the turbo to fill up the extra piping for the FMIC,

[special--k]

Bingo, I've seen hair dryer's that move more air :)

why does it matter what turbo it has. PSI is PSI no? if it boost AT 10psi the who cares where it came from?

[sean22306]

why does it matter what turbo it has. PSI is PSI no? if it boost AT 10psi the who cares where it came from?

10 psi from a t25 is nothing like 10 psi from a t28 or t30. May be the same pressure but more air is being moved.

[jamesk]

why does it matter what turbo it has. PSI is PSI no? if it boost AT 10psi the who cares where it came from?

that is not true at all. psi is the thing that doesnt matter. its cfm rate people are aiming for.

its either a smaller turbo with more boost or a big turbo with less boost, the objective is to get more cfm rates higher. aka more air into engine. psi is just pressure, but the objective is to fit as much air as possible with x amount of psi.

ko2 turbo is equivilant to a 9g turbo. a mitishibishi 9g turbo can be found as one of the turbos on a 3000gt vr4. small.......

and fmic's do not hurt the cars peformance at all. with the right size piping and intercooler, you wont know what lag is. plus colder and denser air is alot more important that 1/3 of a psi being dropped.

psi is not as important as you think. people try to gain as much power or cfm into an engine with as little psi as possible. the reason why people up the boost so much because this is the easiest way in doing it. buying a 20 dollar boost controller. duh..... lol

[nvmsp]

Shit happens sometimes. I was completely stock with only a custom hot pipe with a BOV on it. Car wouldnt run right like that for some reason. Only works when the bov is on the cold pipe.

So run into an XRS toyota matrix, may or may not have been trd s/c'd. Idk.

But since my car was losing all it's boost i guesss, I punched it went through the whole gear in 2nd, shifted into third. The xrs didnt even hit it yet. He wasnt racing at all. Then he punched it and just took off like my car should have done.

It was embarrasing but he knew something was wrong with my car or thought I didnt know how to drive because my car was going nowhere.

Took that pipe off asap and bought a fmic kit, bov on the cold pipe. Problem solved.

[Ricktalife]

i still think they're pretty cool. but obviously not as cool as the msp

[Ricktalife]

yea i guess

[special--k]

Isnt its price now, less then the MSP was in 03.5?

[special--k]

and fmic's do not hurt the cars peformance at all. with the right size piping and intercooler, you wont know what lag is. plus colder and denser air is alot more important that 1/3 of a psi being dropped.


everyone that i talk to tell me that it takes longer for the Turbo to spool with a FMI, for sure the FMI cools better that is not the question. But for "peepyiness" the SMI would jump a little quicker?? Right?

[magnumP5]

everyone that i talk to tell me that it takes longer for the Turbo to spool with a FMI, for sure the FMI cools better that is not the question. But for "peepyiness" the SMI would jump a little quicker?? Right?
IC type and size have nothing to do with "spool" time. How fast the turbo spools up depends on the exhaust manifold and the exhaust. However, as some people were getting at, with a larger FMIC and larger piping there is a lot more volume to fill up. "Spool" time is unaffected but time to full boost may be. Again, this is highly dependent on the size of the IC core and piping, the length of the piping and the size of the turbo.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

If you got smoked by a stock "looking" GTI then your not driving well or he is in fact chipped and putting down a lot more power than you think. It is easy for them to get a ecu flash and make mucho power in stock trim. Are you sure it wasn't an R32?

VW R32's are Cows and to damn expensive plus they are so heavy.. a MS3 can walk any R32's ass. i hate those little cars..

[Ricktalife]

VW R32's are Cows and to damn expensive plus they are so heavy.. a MS3 can walk any R32's ass. i hate those little cars..

no shit? i heard they haul ass. those bitches are awd and stick to the road like bubblegum.

[DeadGeneration]

1. Play any grand theft auto series game
2. Work out
3. Buy a gun, or steal it if you're really hardcore
4. Jack his ride at the next stop light

[Ricktalife]

1. Play any grand theft auto series game
2. Work out
3. Buy a gun, or steal it if you're really hardcore
4. Jack his ride at the next stop light

off topic? lol

[DeadGeneration]

sorry (coffee)

[haze20]

right!!!!!!! at what boost? maybe the driver of the GTI was a dumbass...b/c even with those mod you arent breaking 200hp

STOCK: 200hp GTI>170hp MSP
w/Chipped: GTI 256hp and 303 TQ> msp 180 -/+
not a chance my friend..;)
http://www.goapr.com/VW/products/ecu_upgrade_mkvgti.html

At 8.5psi my car put down 195whp with just my Vibrant and a K&N filter. I fun dead even with my friends 02 WRX which puts down 240whp from a roll.

[MAZDA_SPEED]

Gta Ftw!!!!

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

no shit? i heard they haul ass. those bitches are awd and stick to the road like bubblegum.


That doesn't matter, they suck, too expensive and slow for the price, power and engine...

[slo03.5msp]

R32's are slow.(period) no other discussion. I know my car may be a factory freak but I was still walking stage 2 srt4's on three cylinders running 14lbs of boost tuned. It shouldn't take much to beat up on most cars the msp is a better platform than people give it credit for being. And as long as your not stupid and have supporting mods 12-14lbs of boost daily is not unreachable on the stock turbo.

[JDM Sam]

LOL, weaksauce.

[slo03.5msp]

I hope your not refering to me Sam?!?!?

[zuku26]

no shit? i heard they haul ass. those bitches are awd and stick to the road like bubblegum.

I was reading an article that did a side by side comparison of the GTI and it's R32 brother. The conclusion was it wasn't worth the hipe or the extra money! It was a tad faster and braked marginally shorter. But for the cost you could make more power and brake shorter with aftermarket parts and still have money left over. It was a very impressive article. I wanna say it was a car and driver mag, or something of that caliber.

as far as FMIC goes.
I have to say that after having my FMIC on for 2 weeks now. I couldn't be happier. My car pulls harder now then before and Lag...I have no clue what that is. I have a small chiller, maybe that has something to do with it.
The best part is heat soak no longer exists. I can tell my turbo is happier too. Before when I popped the hood after driving it was soo freak'n hot in there. Now you can actually tell the difference it's cooler.

[JDM Sam]

Weaksauce to the FMIC naysayers. The i/c core chills the pressurized air. When you compress air, it heats up. Most of you have the stock turbo and that is one of the most responsive turbos available. Any lag you think you have is from rich AFR and conservative timing maps on the stock ecu/pcm. If you want a responsive powerful tune you need a FMIC to keep the air charge temps down to fend off heat induced knock/detonation. The only main reason to go with a SMIC is the installation is easier.

It's not that hard to beat those cars mentioned with bolt-ons and 10 psi. 12 psi should take care of even the modified ones.

[kamon8404]

Well I have to say, if a bolt on msp at 10psi is pulling on an STI it will pull on an MS3.

Next, FMIC FTW. I have the turbolife kit (perrin replica), and I experienced zero lag. I reach full boost at 3000.

When my car was basically stock (catless mid-pipe and afc) I was pulling on an 1.8t with a chip boosting 18psi.

Now with a FMIC, 3" TBE, Steedspeed exhaust mani, GT28RS, EBC, AFC and 16lbs wheels, I'll definitely be willing to run next to an MS3 to see where I stand. I might not win but I imagine it will be close since I have driven an MS3 before. I can't wait to get my last bolt on.

[BadBandar]

Ive heard that vw are pretty quick but i havent seen it for myself. I raced a gti before and it wasnt much of a race and i was at stock boost. Just the other day i took a camaro (not sure if it was SS but it looked like it but my buddy was saying it was a z28) it was a good race but i pulled on third and it was over.

I love my msp. Now ill raise it to 9psi and see how it goes from there.

[hollar1211]

That's weird. I doubt I am pushing that much power (but who knows), and my MSP is faster than my Speed6. If a Speed6 runs a quicker 1/4 mile time than an MS3, then my MSP should be faster than an MS3.

i'm curious as to what mods you have, besides the 18" wheels. who was driving your speed 6? i'm assuming you raced both your cars side by side.

the ms3 and ms6 are a whole different animal than our 170 hp proteges. stock, the ms3 is 263hp and a crazy 280 torque. the speed 3 i drove was stock and made me hate my msp, and i have a custom msp smic, corksport exhaust, atp wastegate, motor mounts and 9 lbs of boost. you must have quite the build.

[magnumP5]

^^^ The MS6 is faster in the 1/4 miles because it has AWD that helps it launch better but it's also heavy as hell. I don't know exactly how heavy the MS6s are but I know MSPs are about 500 lbs lighter than MS3s. A 225-230 whp Protege should be able to give a stock MS3 a run for its money and as long as it isn't from a dig it should destroy a MS6.

[nvmsp]

Yup just a little more hp like you said added to the msp. And it's just as fast if not faster than a ms3 or ms6. From a roll of course but thats the only way I race my car anyway.

And hollar1211, they may have made you hate your car. But honestly you don't have alot done to it. So you shouldnt be mad. Shoulda got a FMIC though and a couple more mods.

[nvmsp]

And I rode in a MS6 brand new, I liked it but I wasn't like OMG. It was quick but it's heavy... needs jenny craig.

[Ricktalife]

It was quick but it's heavy... needs jenny craig.

lolz

[special--k]

Bump for New Question:

What about a Saturn Red Line?

I read that they have 200+HP stock and pull about 200 lbs.

[zuku26]

Saturn what redline. They have a couple models. The SKY? That's a bad ass car thay a MSP can't touch. My boy just got a Solstice GXP, same car as the Sky Redline and I can't compare. It's 260 HP and Torque out of the box, rwd roadster.

[Ricktalife]

isn't there an ion model that's supercharged? i could be wrong but i remember seeing a really sporty one at an auction before. maybe it was custom.

[zuku26]

isn't there an ion model that's supercharged? i could be wrong but i remember seeing a really sporty one at an auction before. maybe it was custom.


I didn't know that car existed. Looks to be a formitable competitor on paper.

[Ricktalife]

yep i was right, here it is

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=102018

[kamon8404]

I have raced a ion redline before. Honestly it wasn't even fair. Though the driver in the ion did blow goats. I didn't even want to race him but he kept talking shit for the longest time. Then I destroyed him.

[Ricktalife]

did you beat him stock or modded?

[kamon8404]

did you beat him stock or modded?

I just had a alumium hot pipe, catless mid-pipe, and an afc. I also have the TWM SS but that doesn't help all that much.

[Ricktalife]

so basically those ion's blow

[MAZDA_SPEED]

atleast saturn did their job right....

the Ion's transformation began under the hood where Saturn engineers swapped out the standard 2.2-liter Ecotec engine for a specially prepared 2.0-liter version that's built to withstand the unkind habits of aggressive drivers. Along with the steel crankshaft, oil-cooled pistons and heavy-duty radiator, the reworked Ecotec also features a Roots-type supercharger and an air-to-water intercooler for maximum efficiency.


not to much for the mazda team...all we got was a T-25..no internal work done..shame shame..(hand)

[2.0t03speed]

ummm we have a forged crank,oil cooled pistons(oil squirters directly under the pistons),and a more effective radiator. only thing that sucks is the stock smic and tune looks like you need to do a lil more reasearch on what this motor has before you go spouting off at the mouth =)

[kamon8404]

ummm we have a forged crank,oil cooled pistons(oil squirters directly under the pistons),and a more effective radiator. only thing that sucks is the stock smic and tune looks like you need to do a lil more reasearch on this motor has before you go spoting off at the mouth =)

+1 I was thinking the same exact thing. If this car had forged rods it would have been a power house. the stock pistons can take a beating.

[HondaEat-R]

no shit? i heard they haul ass. those bitches are awd and stick to the road like bubblegum.

MS3 is .5 faster in the quarter mile, and 1 full second faster 0-60. Though I still like the R32 more...

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

MS3 is .5 faster in the quarter mile, and 1 full second faster 0-60. Though I still like the R32 more...

Well, since you like that much the VW R32, can you tell us how much is it ? fully loaded ? what engine and power we are talking about here

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I think and i'm sure lots of people think the same, that the Mazdaspeed Protege's were and still are the best Sport Compact car ever made for the price and equipment brought from Factory. I mean you can't have Awesome price, Awesome Standard equipment and awesome power. i mean in order to play you need to pay, no doubt. if you want to have a killer car, no matter what brand we are talking about you need to take care of the weak spots and add some money to make it better.. We all know the capabilities of any MSP with a descent amount of money on it. and if you add a little more we also know what this car can Do..

[2.0t03speed]

I think and i'm sure lots of people think the same, that the Mazdaspeed Protege's were and still are the best Sport Compact car ever made for the price and equipment brought from Factory. I mean you can't have Awesome price, Awesome Standard equipment and awesome power. i mean in order to play you need to pay, no doubt. if you want to have a killer car, no matter what brand we are talking about you need to take care of the weak spots and add some money to make it better.. We all know the capabilities of any MSP with a descent amount of money on it. and if you add a little more we also know what this car can Do..

i gotta disagree with you there lol alot of ppl think its shit lol

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

i gotta disagree with you there lol alot of ppl think its shit lol

Well, That's you Ryan and those who thinks is shit. you seem not to like your car enough... i really believe and love my ride.. R32 ain't all that shit, they are too expensive,, and just tell me for the price the MSP costs, what could you get better ?

[magnumP5]

Well, That's you Ryan and those who thinks is shit. you seem not to like your car enough... i really believe and love my ride.. R32 ain't all that shit, they are too expensive,, and just tell me for the price the MSP costs, what could you get better ?
I just have to ask then, how much have you spent on your car? I won't lie, I love my P5 but there are many, many cars out there that can be made faster and more reliable for less money. Not to mention many have more aftermarket support. Honda Civics and Nissan 240s come to mind first...

[2.0t03speed]

Where did you get from that sentence that i didnt like my car lol

[2.0t03speed]

1st car that pops in my head is the car everyone loves to hate the srt-4

[magnumP5]

1st car that pops in my head is the car everyone loves to hate the srt-4
I forgot about them, but yes. Although, no matter how much work gets put into those I still find them ugly... The handling isn't really there either but I suppose that can be fixed with a certain amount of money.

[haze20]

I just have to ask then, how much have you spent on your car? I won't lie, I love my P5 but there are many, many cars out there that can be made faster and more reliable for less money. Not to mention many have more aftermarket support. Honda Civics and Nissan 240s come to mind first...

So the only reason you like your car is speed and reliability? Come on Magnum. Civics and 240s cost alot to mod correctly. Sure you can bolt on cheaper stuff with them and make power but it breaks. Top of the line Civic and 240 parts are quite pricey.

[haze20]

I forgot about them, but yes. Although, no matter how much work gets put into those I still find them ugly... The handling isn't really there either but I suppose that can be fixed with a certain amount of money.

New rods and a ECU can fix alot of problems with our cars too.

[magnumP5]

No, there are lots of reasons why I like my P5. Speed and reliability are only the two most common ways people compare cars. I like my P5 because it looks good (to me), has a decent utility to it, it is somewhat unique and it's now decently fast. However, I have probably dropped nearly $10k into the car and I'm only at or around 225 whp in a car that looks and handles great but I haven't even built the motor yet! Even though top-of-the-line Civic and 240Z parts are more expensive, I know you can make one fast, reliable, good-looking, and decent-handling for a lot less than you can a Protege. The margins of return are just lower for Proteges. You can spend $10k on a Protege and get 300 whp fairly reliably in a car that already looks good and handles well. $10k into a Civic will put you around 500 whp with similar qualities.

[Vocko]

But every granny drives a Civic ;)

[HondaEat-R]

Haha, R32 is a much nicer ride in the sense that it has much more of a quality build to it, sounds better, has more power, AWD, stronger motor, nicer interior.... Yes it's heavy..really heavy, no shit. But when you get in, sit down and close the door, you know why it costs more, and why it's so heavy...It's like closing a vault door. Whereas a MSP is a tin can. The R32 is $36,000 fully loaded I believe.

These FSDET motors kinda suck, it's almost a bad joke really. There are sooo many more motors out there that can take much more boost w/out the costly job of replacing pistons and rods, and that also respond better to mods.
Mazdaspeed20035 - Your car is a fucking monster, and not many people if any, are making that kind of power on this forum. Your car is not really a fair comparison, because it's sooo far from a "normal" MSP. Any car can do big things if you dump $25,000 into mostly the motor and tranny, it's easy w/ that much money.

I'd like to see video of people running 10psi (stock turbo) on a bolt-on MSP, walking the likes of Evo's, STI's, Stage 2 SRT 4's. I've seen JDM Sam's video before but...whatever, you don't really see much of that race, just the end, so no comment there. Racing from a roll doesn't mean shit, honestly. Drag racers don't race from a roll and there's a reason why. Because you need to know how to launch a car to be a racer.

Rolling only shows a cars ability to accelerate from maybe 40-1xx, you're missing almost the entire torque aspect of the race, it's silly. Go to the track, line up w/ a bone stock STI, and watch your ass get handed to you. (most of us)
We've all seen the Dyno charts floating around here for MSP's, and nothing about those #'s tell me that those cars are going to walk the previously mentioned cars. I'm speaking from experience. I run 15 psi forged, turbo back 3" w/ no cats, huge FMIC, tuned w/ emanage, 440's, and a tranny built for acceleration. Do I smoke these cars ? Nope, I don't, and I know how to drive.

[special--k]

But every granny drives a Civic ;)

+1 you see civics on the road like 2000 times a day. And moded civics are even more common. I like to think of moded civics like Little EMO children, they all think there Unique, but really they look exactly the same.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I just have to ask then, how much have you spent on your car? I won't lie, I love my P5 but there are many, many cars out there that can be made faster and more reliable for less money. Not to mention many have more aftermarket support. Honda Civics and Nissan 240s come to mind first...

Well, I don't want to turn this thread in to, my car is the shit, and i'll beat you all.. hope this don't turn out into a battle, this is just my opinion. i paid for my car new $ 19,000 and in 5 years i have putted around $ 23,000 in parts, labor, and stuff i have changed more than one time for better parts.. that's $ 42,000 worth Protege. now if i had those $ 42,000 in hands, what could you get ? a Used Vette ? how much money you need to maintain a Vette ? how much money you need to mod it up, how much for insurance, an EVO ? the MR costs around $ 40,000 Fully loaded, 280 HP, yes AWD, but stock, how much money does spare parts and aftermarket parts costs for an EVO, how much Insurance ? at least for me, it has been worth every penny because those $ 23,000 i have invested in my car are equals to an EVO MR with 2k in mods, and i highly doubt any MR with just $ 2000 in mods can perform near of how my MSP does.

the whole point of this is, if you can afford to have something different and be unique, hey you need to pay to play i rather to have a $ 42,000 Protege with 500 HP, than owning a SRT-4, a Honda, or a Nissan with the same amount of power or more with less money, but you see them in every corner, every kid have one. so what's the point being another from the bunch... i mean you can call me crazy for putting that amount of money into a PROTEGE, but I'm a Happy Crazy ass motherfucker with something nobody have !! that's all i care

an SRT-4 ? no thanks, no matter if with the same amount of money you can make a 1200 HP SRT-4, no matter what you do to the SRT-4's. they are ugly and still a Dodge, a Econobox with a big engine and that's it. i don't see any bling on any srt-4 i don't care if they have 800 HP or more, if they are fast or not. Just not my Type of car.

Honda, and Nissan's.. i don't like any of them. plus all of these cars are way more expensive platforms than our MSP's. i hope you get my point. i also know not everybody have 23k to put into a car, but i also know buying a 42k is worst than what i have done. because in the long run i'll have a better overall car and less expensive there is no doubt about that..

[magnumP5]

But every granny drives a Civic ;)


+1 you see civics on the road like 2000 times a day. And moded civics are even more common. I like to think of moded civics like Little EMO children, they all think there Unique, but really they look exactly the same.
Uniqueness however, does not equal perfection. I'm just saying, the Protege is a fine car and I love mine but there are much better platforms out there for Import builds. Believing the Protege tops that list is just ignorance. Hell, if I wanted a killer Import build it'd be an EG Hatch Civic with an all motor KA24 swap with KA20 head, header, ITBs, Hondata, full suspension, JDM body conversion, etc. It would have more power, weigh less, handle better and have a "uniqueness" not seen in 90% of Proteges here.

[haze20]

Not everyone drag races. Some people like to turn the steering wheel. In a race on a track you don't stop at the begining of the backstraight each lap. You are already rolling so the one that accerates faster will win if you are side by side coming out of the corner.Racing from a roll shows the acceleration of the two carsas if you were on the track. You can go from a 20mph roll like I do with my friend who has a WRX. You honestly can't beat a STI or R32 with your mods?? I hope you are kidding.

[magnumP5]

Honda, and Nissan's.. i don't like any of them. plus all of these cars are way more expensive platforms than our MSP's.
Ok, the rest of your post is fine but this is just wrong - completely, utterly false. The Protege platform is one of the most expensive Import platforms to work with. The reason: 3rd Gens were only built for 5 years and MSPs for only 1 year. Companies don't make products for cars when there's only 5000 in existance! There is a reason why major tuning companies like Greddy/Trust and HKS make so little products for our cars. Hell, many big name companies don't make anything!

[haze20]

Uniqueness however, does not equal perfection. I'm just saying, the Protege is a fine car and I love mine but there are much better platforms out there for Import builds. Believing the Protege tops that list is just ignorance. Hell, if I wanted a killer Import build it'd be an EG Hatch Civic with an all motor KA24 swap with KA20 head, header, ITBs, Hondata, full suspension, JDM body conversion, etc. It would have more power, weigh less, handle better and have a "uniqueness" not seen in 90% of Proteges here.

Do you know how much money you just spent with that build. Not to mention the cost of the body work that would need to be done to a car that old.

[magnumP5]

Do you know how much money you just spent with that build. Not to mention the cost of the body work that would need to be done to a car that old.
Lots yes, KA24s are upwards of $4k on their own but overall it would be comparable to what I'm doing with my P5. Hell, I have an exhaust manifold that cost nearly $1000! Roughly the same price and same overall power level but I'd have N/A Honda reliability in a car that weighs 500 lbs less than my P5.

Look, I'm not trying to de-rail the OP. Everything I said is just in response to all the fan-boys out there who think the MSP is the be-all, end-all tuner platform; it just isn't. I love my P5 to death and will probably never part with it but there are just some things I've come to accept.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Uniqueness however, does not equal perfection. I'm just saying, the Protege is a fine car and I love mine but there are much better platforms out there for Import builds. Believing the Protege tops that list is just ignorance. Hell, if I wanted a killer Import build it'd be an EG Hatch Civic with an all motor KA24 swap with KA20 head, header, ITBs, Hondata, full suspension, JDM body conversion, etc. It would have more power, weigh less, handle better and have a "uniqueness" not seen in 90% of Proteges here.

But again, is a damn HONDA CIVIC...... how many Heavy Modded Proteges you see on the streets ? how many own them ? how many JDM all around Honda's you see around? shit, i used to see hundreds of them back in Miami, with shit load of power, whooping Lambo's, Ferrari's, Supras... but then again is a HONDA not a MAZDA Protege..... i mean every one of us is free to choose any brand or any car to start a project, i'm not disappointed by using a Protege as my project..

[magnumP5]

But again, is a damn HONDA CIVIC...... how many Heavy Modded Proteges you see on the streets ? how many own them ? how many JDM all around Honda's you see around? shit, i used to see hundreds of them back in Miami, with shit load of power, whooping Lambo's, Ferrari's, Supras... but then again is a HONDA not a MAZDA Protege..... i mean every one of us is free to choose any brand or any car to start a project, i'm not disappointed by using a Protege to start my project..
Look, I respect your opinion but in repsonse to this - YOU OWN A DAMNED PROTEGE! That's no different than saying "IT'S A DAMNED HONDA CIVIC!". Both are Japanese compact sedans or hatches and are comparable at every level. Entry level Civic = entry level Protege and MSP = Civic Si (I'm talking about stock here). Honestly, who gives a flying fuck how many modded Civics are out there? Just because they're common doesn't mean they're crap and just because something is rare doesn't mean it's great. Perhaps most import tuners just know the Protege isn't a great platform and opt for something with more support. C'mon man, I know you love your car and Mazda but blind faith is just stupid.

[haze20]

Lots yes, KA24s are upwards of $4k on their own but overall it would be comparable to what I'm doing with my P5. Hell, I have an exhaust manifold that cost nearly $1000! Roughly the same price and same overall power level but I'd have N/A Honda reliability in a car that weighs 500 lbs less than my P5.

Look, I'm not trying to de-rail the OP. Everything I said is just in response to all the fan-boys out there who think the MSP is the be-all, end-all tuner platform; it just isn't. I love my P5 to death and will probably never part with it but there are just some things I've come to accept.

I agree totally with you. The MSP was meant to out handle its competition not just out run it like was the case with the SRT-4. I don't think any FWD car should make more than 300WHP tops. But thats my opinion. I guess I don't street race enough to need more HP than that.

[magnumP5]

I agree totally with you. The MSP was meant to out handle its competition not just out run it like was the case with the SRT-4. I don't think any FWD car should make more than 300WHP tops. But thats my opinion. I guess I don't street race enough to need more HP than that.
Agreed 100% and that is why 300 whp is my final power goal. I also have a lot of suspensions mods already done or planned. Straight line speed is fun but I more enjoy being able to utilize most of my 225 whp on interstarte on/off-ramps. I've already stated that I hate the SRT4s though. Nothing could get me to like one of those.

[HondaEat-R]

Not everyone drag races. Some people like to turn the steering wheel. In a race on a track you don't stop at the begining of the backstraight each lap. You are already rolling so the one that accerates faster will win if you are side by side coming out of the corner.Racing from a roll shows the acceleration of the two carsas if you were on the track. You can go from a 20mph roll like I do with my friend who has a WRX. You honestly can't beat a STI or R32 with your mods?? I hope you are kidding.

Very true, racing in the twisties is great, any sort of circuit racing is as well. I was obviously talking about drag type situations, either on a strip or where people roll, and almost always race in a straight line when from a roll. Why would I walk a STI ? Honestly, have you ever been in one ? Or truly raced one ? Show me you in your MSP walking a STI, please. And don't "hope that I'm kidding", because I'm not. Lets be realistic, and not just talk up our cars just because we have one.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Look, I respect your opinion but in repsonse to this - YOU OWN A DAMNED PROTEGE! That's no different than saying "IT'S A DAMNED HONDA CIVIC!". Both are Japanese compact sedans or hatches and are comparable at every level. Entry level Civic = entry level Protege and MSP = Civic Si (I'm talking about stock here). Honestly, who gives a flying fuck how many modded Civics are out there? Just because they're common doesn't mean they're crap and just because something is rare doesn't mean it's great. Perhaps most import tuners just know the Protege isn't a great platform and opt for something with more support. C'mon man, I know you love your car and Mazda but blind faith is just stupid.



BS when you say Civic Si = MSP, how much does Honda Civic si costs ? how much were the MSP.. stock by stock the msp looks better and and perform better when it comes about how much money you have paid, because we all know Hondas are way more expensive than mazda, and any Si civic is more expensive than any msp. i really doubt any Civic SI runs for $ 19,000 fully loaded. i mean you think i really care if greddy,HKS sells more parts and have more market for honda than for mazda ? shit i can tell you Magnum that the least shit i have in my car is blind Faith. The Mazda Proteges are good, way to good for the amount of money you pay for it.

[2.0t03speed]

Btw way will i tried to call you yesterday had a question for you about the defi gauges

[haze20]

My friends fiance has one. They out weigh the MSP by about 500 or so pounds. They make 300hp and 300tq at the crank. When you add drive train loss it puts them around 240-270 at the wheels depending on who you talk to. With you mods I would figure you should be making at least 220 at the least. My car puts down right around 200WHP and 200Wtq with just a K&N and Vibrant exhaust at 10PSI. From a roll you should beat or at the very least be right on the ass of one with your mods. I could be wrong but thats my opinion.

[haze20]

Btw way will i tried to call you yesterday had a question for you about the defi gauges

Whats your #? I had a # I didn't know come up but didn't answer it. Nobody left a message so I figured they would call back or it wasn't important.

[HondaEat-R]

BS when you say Civic Si = MSP, how much does Honda Civic si costs ? how much were the MSP.. stock by stock the msp looks better and and perform better when it comes about how much money you have paid, because we all know Hondas are way more expensive than mazda, and any Si civic is more expensive than any msp. i really doubt any Civic SI runs for $ 19,000 fully loaded. i mean you think i really care if greddy,HKS sells more parts and have more market for honda than for mazda ? shit i can tell you Magnum that the least shit i have in my car is blind Faith. The Mazda Proteges are good, way to good for the amount of money you pay for it.

New Civic Si = Faster than MSP.

[kamon8404]

I drove a civic si a few weeks ago at the deal. It was definitely a solid piece. It was used and they wanted 19k.

I paid 13k for my msp. With all the mods, I would still be less than 19k and my msp would eat the si. Plus i get the joy of knowing that I have a bad ass turbo set up.

[HondaEat-R]

Stock for stock, Si would own. I don't know your mods. Gt28rs ? If so of course you'll beat the Si.

[2.0t03speed]

what year was the si?

[kamon8404]

what year was the si?

It was an 07.

All of my mods are bolt on. Which together are less than 2.5k.

[2.0t03speed]

fmic,exhaust,steedspeed mani,gt28rs,afc less then 2.5k lol?

[kamon8404]

fmic,exhaust,steedspeed mani,gt28rs,afc less then 2.5k lol?

Well i do it like you man. I got deals on everything :)

[2.0t03speed]

lol its nice isnt it

[kamon8404]

very. If I had paid MSRP for all items I would probably be in the 4k range.

[Ricktalife]

the 09 si's look pretty cool if you ask me. i still wouldn't buy one though lol. unless it was this special breed of si. the mugen....drool.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/11/civic_mugen_si.jpg

[haze20]

That would be close to a 30k drool. I could get a used Evo IX MR for that.

[Ricktalife]

i think it was about 37 actually. i could be wrong.

edit, nvm it is 30 lol

[kamon8404]

30k is definitely not worth that in my opinion! Goodness. I admit, it is very rare but you can get so much more bang for your buck!

[Knox Joe]

i'm curious as to what mods you have, besides the 18" wheels. who was driving your speed 6? i'm assuming you raced both your cars side by side.

the ms3 and ms6 are a whole different animal than our 170 hp proteges. stock, the ms3 is 263hp and a crazy 280 torque. the speed 3 i drove was stock and made me hate my msp, and i have a custom msp smic, corksport exhaust, atp wastegate, motor mounts and 9 lbs of boost. you must have quite the build.

I have every bolt on except for an intake mani.

I also have methanol, and run 14psi sometimes.


My MS6 is stock and has maybe 210 whp, weighing in at approx. 3800-4000lbs. My MSP has more whp, and is about 800 lbs lighter.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

New Civic Si = Faster than MSP.

I agree, but how much is the new SI, and how much is the MSP, i bet if you put the difference in price towards the msp in mods, the MSP will Rape the SI ass. no doubt.. there you get your answer and equation civic si= Faster than msp..

[Ricktalife]

the msp can rape almost any other sports sedan if you put the difference in price into mods for it.

[HondaEat-R]

Not too much of a difference here folks...

2003 MSP----> $19980 - $20480
2007 Civic Si---->$19,437-$21,226

MSP 0-60 6.9s 1/4 Mile 15.4s

Civic Si 0-60 6.3s 1/4 Mile 14.9s

[Velocifero]

how about we compare the 03 MSP vs the 03 SI? And we compare the 07 MS3 to the 07 SI.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

how about we compare the 03 MSP vs the 03 SI? And we compare the 07 MS3 to the 07 SI.

Good idea... any info about them ?

[HondaEat-R]

the msp can rape almost any other sports sedan if you put the difference in price into mods for it.

We all know this.. Lets not compare highly modded cars to bone stock cars. It's asinine, and isn't a true comparison. I've had cars that cost $3,000 and would woop a stock MSP's ass....

[HondaEat-R]

how about we compare the 03 MSP vs the 03 SI? And we compare the 07 MS3 to the 07 SI.

Why is that a good comparison ? The MS3 has what, 65 more horsepower than the NA Civic Si ?.....sounds a little one sided to me.
The MSP is faster than a '01-03 Si (160hp), no need to debate that.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Why is that a good comparison ? The MS3 has what, 65 more horsepower than the NA Civic Si ?.....sounds even to me, lol...

The MSP is faster than a '01-03 Si (160hp), no need to debate that.

you have a MSP right ? post some pictures of it, i want to see what you got

[HondaEat-R]

It's a bone stock looking Titanium MSP. Nothing at all done to the outside, or interior except for gauges & what not.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

It's a bone stock looking Titanium MSP. Nothing at all done to the outside, or interior except for gauges & what not.

quick question, why you went with 9.1 compression ?

[2.0t03speed]

he didnt build the car he bought it like that and i got 9.1 compression gots a problem lol

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

he didnt build the car he bought it like that and i got 9.1 compression gots a problem lol

hahaha,, don't make me hurt ya Ryan...... lol lol

[haze20]

he didnt build the car he bought it like that and i got 9.1 compression gots a problem lol

You mean you will have 9.1 compression.

[HondaEat-R]

X2 . I didn't build the bottom end. SlowMotionMSP did. That's a question I asked him, and well, bottom line, SlowMotionMSP didn't know much about cars. I would've gotten lower compression pistons had it been me. No biggie though, it's not like I'm running a GT35 w/ 18psi. It's a gt25 @ 15psi.

[haze20]

How much power are you putting down? I still can't believe you would have a problem with a STI from a roll.

[2.0t03speed]

You mean you will have 9.1 compression.

nah i still have it my old motor is still together and it has 9.1 lol

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

X2 . I didn't build the bottom end. SlowMotionMSP did. That's a question I asked him, and well, bottom line, SlowMotionMSP didn't know much about cars. I would've gotten lower compression pistons had it been me. No biggie though, it's not like I'm running a GT35 w/ 18psi. It's a gt25 @ 15psi.

I was just Wondering since the common thing people do is get 8.5:1 Compression Pistons and stronger rods..

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

How much power are you putting down? I still can't believe you would have a problem with a STI from a roll.

who had a problem rolling against an STI ?

[HondaEat-R]

Yea, that's what Mazda should have done at the factory. Stronger rods, lower compression pistons, and 5 more psi on the turbo. I believe my car has a slightly thicker Cometic headgasket, bringing the compression down a touch.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Yea, that's what Mazda should have done at the factory. Stronger rods, lower compression pistons, and 5 more psi on the turbo. I believe my car has a slightly thicker Cometic headgasket, bringing the compression down a touch.

That's a good thing to do. when i did my car i went with Aries Pistons 8.5:1 and lower it to 8.1 with a thick head gasket to boost more along with pauter rods.

[special--k]

^^ i agree, and the thing about it, that that is a Hard job to switch those parts out. If they had just done it to start with and even changed a little more it would have been so worth it. (Maybe not the 5 more PSI) leave that to the owner since its eazy to change.

[HondaEat-R]

He's talking about me. I have no idea how much power I have, and I can count on one hand the times I've "messed around with" other cars. I try not to street race, it's silly, boyish, and dangerous. Of course I want to sometimes but...what's it worth ? It's not even a race, it's a roll. The most recent times I've played on the street was with a 04 Mustang SVT Cobra that had intake, full exhaust, and a 14lb pulley for the supercharger. He got me by 4 car lengths. The other time was with a Yamaha R6, and the guy couldn't drive for shit so(too much downshifting)...I got him by a fender or so.

For the most part, I try to never be stupid, and race on the street. Although it has happened about 3 times total.

[BadBandar]

I would go for the msp over a civic any day. Civics are just to common and i dont really like how they look. The mugen si is overpriced for what they are offering performance wise. Im surprised to see how quick a 07 civic is but ill love to take it for a walk. (thumb)

[CnoTataymo]

The Si coupes are pretty quick stock and handle pretty good. Add bolt ons and ECU reflash, they're quick. You can get one into the 13's.

[sandspeed]

The Si coupes are pretty quick stock and handle pretty good. Add bolt ons and ECU reflash, they're quick. You can get one into the 13's.

Very true and with a nice little 75 shot into the 12s, see them all over the place down here, they're quick.
I'm not a huge fan of the lastest style but if I had to choose I would pick up an clean EK hatch, throw in a K20, i/h/e kpro plus 100 shot can call it a day
baaaaaaaaaaaaah baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[jamesk]

ya but there not very good street cars. the powerband is only from 5800 rpms to redline. kind of anoying when you wanna pass someone or race some one, or whatever.

but for the track there fast, but in order to go fast, you better be near redline. poor engine lol

[mikeski]

how bout an acura tsx? or BMW 325? stock.

[Ricktalife]

Why is that a good comparison ? The MS3 has what, 65 more horsepower than the NA Civic Si ?.....sounds a little one sided to me.
The MSP is faster than a '01-03 Si (160hp), no need to debate that.

his point is you were comparing 2 cars that are years apart

[special--k]

his point is you were comparing 2 cars that are years apart

Agree, thats the first thing i thought when i read that. If you are going to compaire Cars then the 03 MSP vs. the 03 SI is a better compairson then vs 07 SI

[HondaEat-R]

I actually wasn't the one to start the SI to MSP comparison. Read more deeply Daniel son. I simply stated the #'s difference, and that one is faster than the other. Thanks.

[HondaEat-R]

ya but there not very good street cars. the powerband is only from 5800 rpms to redline. kind of anoying when you wanna pass someone or race some one, or whatever.

but for the track there fast, but in order to go fast, you better be near redline. poor engine lol

I don't know what type of cars you have owned in the past (nice protege btw), but IMHO there's nothing annoying about a high revving car, that also makes power all the way to redline.. Ever been in a S2000, RX-7, or even a small b16 equipped car ? Some motors love to rev, and appropriately enough that's how they make their power. Like you said though, the problem is they usually don't have enough torque... I've seen h22 swapped hatch's w/ bolt-ons crap all over turbo vehicles of comparable power.

[jamesk]

inline 4 NA race inspired engines are made for the track. they werent made for the streets. there not slow, but they are lacking power and get up and go from the rpm range for the street, not the track. in order to speed up, you must get ready to race. in order to have a fast inline 4 NA built motor to keep up with forced induction, this is what has to be done.


plus a h22 honda weighs nothing. that has alot to do with how fast it is.

its a fact that a inline 4 only has 4 cynlinders, and to make it fast without forced induction, there are going to be some sacrifices to make in order to achieve high horse power. again, for the track, they can keep up, but there not economical for aggressive street driving what so ever.

[HondaEat-R]

I think you're generalizing wayyy too much. I've had several cars that were "high revving" NA, and had comparable power (or less than) to the MSP (stock), and they were faster than the MSP....anywhere, street or track.

Ok,...what are the sacrifices that one must make to make a NA achieve high power ? Bolt ons and valve-train work is a good start. And NA 4 cylinders are made for the track ? What are you even talking about ? What track, there's lots of types. I understand your point about needing to get them into high RPM's to make power, but that's not hard to do if you know how to drive. How many types of auto racing use exclusively 4 cylinder NA specific cars ? Not many, except for restricted entry races.
We've already stated that there is typically a sacrifice of torque to gain high revs, not always though. Why are turbo cars "economical" for aggressive street driving ? Most people can't launch for shit, which leaves them spinning the tires @ the start(because they hit boost too soon and too hard), essentially wasting a lot of your torque. While a high revving NA has gotten the start w/ minimal spin, revs very high and makes power all the way to redline. Less gear changing means faster times(as long as you can drive).

I see you claim "NA beast", so you must have done a lot of motor work before you went w/ the snail, correct ? Please don't base your argument around what a P5 does, because a P5 is not even a quick car(stock), nor is it a high revving motor, nor does it respond well to mods. BTW, a H22 weighs more than our motor.

I truly respect your opinion though.

[starscream2k1]

So to kinda bring this back to topic... I dont think even with most if not all boltons you can beat some of these cars you guys speak of. I mean i recently got tuned and have a good amount of mods but fuck i just hit like 190whp on a Dynojet. The tuner is well known and knows his shit...maybe theres a issue with my car that i dunno about. But here are my mods and my dyno chart and you guys can see for yourselves (btw 1st dyno was just prepping up to see where the 440's (injectors) are at and how much fuel we need to add/pull etc).

Dont get me wrong i wasnt going for all out HP, but i was kinda hoping to hit atleast 200whp. At one point we heard slight pinging and hence didnt wanna push the motor even more. The other problem was with the 626 intake mani and the MSP Ecu and Unichip. In the middle you can slightly see on the dyno like a dip, i am thinking its the stock ECU trying to do whatever it does when VTCS/VICS gets activated. So sometimes when i drive i feel the car hit that spot and it just falls flat on its face. I see the boost go up, and the car goes no where then all of a sudden it picks the fuck up for that split second then i gotta shift...

-Injen CAI (converted to SRI) w/ Dryflow Filter
-BEGi FMIC w/ Turbo XS BOV and Forge Diverter Valve (Dual Setup)
-Steedspeed Exhaust Manifold (CNCed Manifold with Tubular inside design)
-Corksport S Pipe
-Vibrant Turbo Back Exhaust (techically its from the S pipe back)
-Separated Vac sources for BPV/BOV/Boost Gauge
-Unichip with D Module
-626 Intake Manifold (ported a bit (gasket matching mostly))
-440cc WRX Injectors
-Unichip Boost Controller
-Medievil Pullies (Crank, Water Pump and Alt, stock size but lightweight)
-9.5 psi boost on the stock unichip controller

HERES STOCK DYNO (NO MODS)
http://www.laleetsgarage.com/pics/dyno/StockDYNO.jpg
HERES AFTER TUNING AND MODS DYNO (AFTER MODS)
http://www.laleetsgarage.com/pics/dyno/ModdedDYNO1.jpg

So how you walk all these cars? LOL i have nooooo idea... i mean i like my msp and i understand its an econobox....but fucknuts! LOL

[Stormtrooper77]

That's it huh? With those mods you would expect quite a bit more. But like you said, you may have something else wrong with your car.

[jamesk]

yea quater mile your right, there is no disadvantage. i was talking about the twisties.

and yea i was generalizing. maybe the better word would be i am taking a adverage. if i was talking about pacifics then certain cars have to be brought up, and the arguement would be what car is better.

listen i agree with you that the track, they are good cars. but im just saying when you take that high reving track car to the streets, its not really an impressive car untill you start going threw the gears at wot, which is illegal anyway. always down shifting and always on the throttle in order to keep up with people, etc.

a turbo car is different. if you wanted to pass someone or just need a little extra torque, just give the car a little more throttle in any gear, and the car will take off. it really doenst take effort to go fast.

believe me, i love the NA scene, but i believe those cars are made for the track. i know the honda scene very well and we can both agree that those cars are fast. but we both also know, cruising in a integra with a b series motor cruising at 3500 rpms, and someone tries to pass you, the car looses a second into down shifting and therefore, the car probably wont catch up. but they are fun cars to drive though, but everytime i drive these cars, i always get into trouble with doing the speed limit. lol

its hard what i am trying to say and i cant say your wrong because i agree with you, but i think you get it

[HondaEat-R]

yea quater mile your right, there is no disadvantage. i was talking about the twisties.

and yea i was generalizing. maybe the better word would be i am taking a adverage. if i was talking about pacifics then certain cars have to be brought up, and the arguement would be what car is better.

listen i agree with you that the track, they are good cars. but im just saying when you take that high reving track car to the streets, its not really an impressive car untill you start going threw the gears at wot, which is illegal anyway. always down shifting and always on the throttle in order to keep up with people, etc.

a turbo car is different. if you wanted to pass someone or just need a little extra torque, just give the car a little more throttle in any gear, and the car will take off. it really doenst take effort to go fast.

believe me, i love the NA scene, but i believe those cars are made for the track. i know the honda scene very well and we can both agree that those cars are fast. but we both also know, cruising in a integra with a b series motor cruising at 3500 rpms, and someone tries to pass you, the car looses a second into down shifting and therefore, the car probably wont catch up. but they are fun cars to drive though, but everytime i drive these cars, i always get into trouble with doing the speed limit. lol

its hard what i am trying to say and i cant say your wrong because i agree with you, but i think you get it

I totally understand what you're saying now, and I agree w/ most of it. Some really good points made by both parties. My thing is, I just don't consider street racing, "racing" at all. It's such an uncontrolled environment, that it's hard to tell what a car can do, can't do, and might do, ya know ?

Also, I to would still like to see these guys running a stock gt25 @ 10psi "walk" a STI, the thought of someone saying that makes me giggle like a school girl.

Look at Starscream2k1 : He has a really nice list of mods there, and at basically 10psi, he's slightly under 200whp. Not necessarily "bad" numbers by any means but, there's no way in hell he's walking the Evo's and STI's, etc..

I think it's hard for some people to actually be honest about their cars power, and often overestimate it's ability to perform against other vehicles. It's cool to be proud of your ride, I am, but it's another thing to carry a chip around on your shoulder.
The RX-7 Club is like that. I had a '87 Rx-7 se NA, and a '88 Turbo II. At the same time I owned them, I had a 1993 Nissan Nx2000 (sr20de). They couldn't and WOULDN'T believe that the Nx2000 w/ intake, header, exhaust, cams & advanced timing, would shit all over both the Turbo II and the NA Rx-7. They call it "The 7 Can't Lose" syndrome , and I think similar variations of that syndrome affect many Tuner car owners. Haha. I sound like a car psychologist.

[Knox Joe]

Well just so everyone knows when I beat the Evo I was at 14 psi, and I have basically the same mods as Starscream except no intake mani, but I also run pure methanol, and more boost. Then I have a bunch of misc stuff not for the motor, like motor mounts, clutch, etc.

I'd imagine Starscream's problem is the 626 mani in conjunction with the Unichip. I have heard it causes problems.

Also, JDMsam posted a video, but apparently that's not enough. (shrug)

[haze20]

I don't know. Maybe my car is a freak but with just my Vibrant exhaust, K&N drop in filter at 10PSI I made 195whp and 195wtq on a dyno jet. Hell when I had a spike to 12-13psi in the middle of the power band my car was making 230wtq. You can call B.S. but ask Ryan, Magnum, JNato and pretty much the whole Va crew because these were all done at dyno days. I never said I would walk on a STI. I said with full boltons with a built motor at 15PSI you should walk away from an STI. I barely beat my friend who has a 02 WRX with the old 5-speed STI gears from a roll. He makes 240whp and 240wtq.

[Knox Joe]

I don't know. Maybe my car is a freak but with just my Vibrant exhaust, K&N drop in filter at 10PSI I made 195whp and 195wtq on a dyno jet. Hell when I had a spike to 12-13psi in the middle of the power band my car was making 230wtq.

Nice numbers!

I haven't dyno'd mine yet. :(

I'm changing out the Unichip for something else, then I'll tune it.

[Ricktalife]

I've seen h22 swapped hatch's w/ bolt-ons crap all over turbo vehicles of comparable power.

speaking of shit, i'd like to shit all over my neighbors 07 sti. too bad it won't happen.

[haze20]

speaking of shit, i'd like to shit all over my neighbors 07 sti. too bad it won't happen.

You could with the right mods.

[Ricktalife]

i dont have that kind of money though :(

[HondaEat-R]

Well just so everyone knows when I beat the Evo I was at 14 psi, and I have basically the same mods as Starscream except no intake mani, but I also run pure methanol, and more boost. Then I have a bunch of misc stuff not for the motor, like motor mounts, clutch, etc.

I'd imagine Starscream's problem is the 626 mani in conjunction with the Unichip. I have heard it causes problems.

Also, JDMsam posted a video, but apparently that's not enough. (shrug)

No...JDMSam's video isn't enough. He's a knowledgeable guy and has a nice shop but..in that "race" you see about 5 seconds of the actual race(the very end), the rest is just typical street race video BS. Once again, a street race isn't a race, it's nonsense and only shows a small portion of a cars potential.

Let me explain this again, I've been in more than one STI, I've been in a Evo MR, and a shitload of other very quick cars(i'm sure you have to). You see my mods & I run 15psi all day long. My car isn't broken anywhere, and is performing very well. I don't and won't simply "walk" these cars we're speaking of.
I just don't buy it, and I'm saying this as a guy whom has a very similar list of mods as you (KnoxJoe) if not a 'lil bit more. Not some random guy driving some random unrelated car.

[JDM Sam]

LOL, that's from a 40 roll all the way to triple digits. The video car is struggling to keep up, pay attention to his speedo. I have other videos but I don't give a shit anymore until I make new ones.

That video my setup was AWR motor mounts, Exedy clutch, Injen cai, Crossover Auto FMIC, Vibrant exhaust, Unichip tuned on 10 psi Greddy Profec B 2 ebc, pump gas 93.

My car trapped 101-102 in that setup. I had another car do 103-104 with the similar mods. You should be able to replicate similar results if you have a car that runs right, has no problems, and is properly maintained.

[HondaEat-R]

LOL, that's from a 40 roll all the way to triple digits. The video car is struggling to keep up, pay attention to his speedo. I have other videos but I don't give a shit anymore until I make new ones.

That video my setup was AWR motor mounts, Exedy clutch, Injen cai, Crossover Auto FMIC, Vibrant exhaust, Unichip tuned on 10 psi Greddy Profec B 2 ebc, pump gas 93.

My car trapped 101-102 in that setup. I had another car do 103-104 with the similar mods. You should be able to replicate similar results if you have a car that runs right, has no problems, and is properly maintained.

Buddy..nobody said you weren't going "fast". Great, you hit over 100. That's totally beside the point. Make a video at the track beating a STI. That's what I want to see pretty badly. FYI, my car runs great, and pulls hard. Just not as hard as some people like to claim. Proof please, just like you said in your video, "raise the BS flag". Consider it raised. It's not personal, I just don't buy what you guys are selling. You need to remember that I own the car we're speaking of and drive it everyday, hence I know what it (and those similar to it) will and can do.

[haze20]

No...JDMSam's video isn't enough. He's a knowledgeable guy and has a nice shop but..in that "race" you see about 5 seconds of the actual race(the very end), the rest is just typical street race video BS. Once again, a street race isn't a race, it's nonsense and only shows a small portion of a cars potential.

Let me explain this again, I've been in more than one STI, I've been in a Evo MR, and a shitload of other very quick cars(i'm sure you have to). You see my mods & I run 15psi all day long. My car isn't broken anywhere, and is performing very well. I don't and won't simply "walk" these cars we're speaking of.
I just don't buy it, and I'm saying this as a guy whom has a very similar list of mods as you (KnoxJoe) if not a 'lil bit more. Not some random guy driving some random unrelated car.

The local Subaru guru in my area disagrees with you. In a drag race from a stop you shouldn't beat the STI. The traction advantage they have out of the hole is simply to much to overcome for most fwd cars. However from a roll you should. With a lighter car with the same whp and wtq you should win. Walking away might be a reach. My friend (the guru) has a 500whp bug eye and tunes STI's all day long at his shop.

[JDM Sam]

What is the point you are trying to make? You don't condone street racing? Welcome to 2 years ago in that video. There are track videos if you search.

Just look at people's timeslips and trap speeds. Trap speed tells you how fast a car really is on the street w/o the traction factor. Many modded MSP's trap 97 to 103 mph with bolt-ons.

[HondaEat-R]

**You just said "IF they have the same whp and wtq". Here's the thing..My car doesn't have 305 crank hp, neither does yours, neither does JDMSams, see the pattern ? If my car DID have 305 crank hp, I'd say to you that "yes, of course I'll beat a STI from a roll". It would make sense at that point.

They're not even close, especially at 10psi on our little turbo, which is what JDMSam claims.

[HondaEat-R]

What is the point you are trying to make? You don't condone street racing? Welcome to 2 years ago in that video. There are track videos if you search.

Just look at people's timeslips and trap speeds. Trap speed tells you how fast a car really is on the street w/o the traction factor. Many modded MSP's run 97 to 103 mph with bolt-ons.

Right...street racing is silly. It's not racing, and it's a easy way out for people that want to claim bravado bullshit "race" wins, that in reality can't launch a car properly. I know all about trap speeds. I saw your track videos, you beat a old turbo mr2 by what, .3, .4 seconds ? I just don't see how that could equate into the ability to smoke a STI.

[haze20]

AWD cars have alot more drivetrain loss HP wise vs FWD. They claim 305 at the crank and put down around 240ish to the wheels. If you are at 15psi with your mods you should be around that. I make 200 to the wheels and don't have near the mods you do or do I run 15psi.

[HondaEat-R]

AWD cars have alot more drivetrain loss HP wise vs FWD. They claim 305 at the crank and put down around 240ish to the wheels. If you are at 15psi with your mods you should be around that. I make 200 to the wheels and don't have near the mods you do or do I run 15psi.

I understand the concept of power loss through load. I don't know what else I can say in this debate. I just don't see it happening. Maybe sometime soon I'll see a STI and simultaneously feel irresponsible, so I can see how it would really go.

[JDM Sam]

My current setup I am safe to presume I am well over 300 flywheel hp. So speak for yourself on that one.

Obviously, you do not know about trap speeds b/c you don't get that my old trap speed was faster than a stock STI's. 101-102 > 98-99 mph. A roll race takes the STI's traction advantage away, so it's all about power and gearing. You want to keep comparing the roll race vs. a standstill. We know from a standstill, it is unlikely to beat an STI, so quit beating the dead horse.

Most of all, don't forget the MSP weighs less.

[Vocko]

4WD or AWD is better and always will be compared to FWD or RWD from a standstill, but once you get rolling that advantage dissapears and becomes a handicap (mostly because of the weight and then all other factors).

This is drag race-wise, on a track its a different story and is all about balance of the car and skill of the driver.
Not that I'm saying that drag race doesnt require skill, 'cause I've seen fast cars beaten just for bad gear shifting technique.

[HondaEat-R]

My current setup I am safe to presume I am well over 300 flywheel hp. So speak for yourself on that one.

Obviously, you do not know about trap speeds b/c you don't get that my old trap speed was faster than a stock STI's. 101-102 > 98-99 mph. A roll race takes the STI's traction advantage away, so it's all about power and gearing. You want to keep comparing the roll race vs. a standstill. We know from a standstill, it is unlikely to beat an STI, so quit beating the dead horse.

You didn't have over 300hp when you raced that STI though....You ran 10psi on a gt25, and that beat the STI huh ? Keep stretching.

Obviously, you think you know a thing or two about drag racing because you've raced your MSP less than a handfull of times. Congrats, I'm impressed. Whatever, because I'm about done here I think. Keep racing your car on the street, and you'll be so cool that you're car will be in impound, and you'll be the owner of a significantly lighter wallet.( Minus lots o' cash & one drivers license).

[JDM Sam]

Yes, believe it or not those mods beat an STI. I ran another 05 STI with cai/downpipe that night. I have the video of that too, but it won't change your opinion because you won't accept it as fact due to it not being on a track.

Preach to the choir about street racing all you want because I haven't run anyone in a while. Your whole argument is based off your feelings towards street racing and really has no foundation other than street racing isn't good enough, so do it from a dig at the track. In other words, you want to take a roll race and run it from a dig in which we already know the outcome, which reasserts why you are preaching to choir about street racing again. So let me finish what you really want to say about roll racing not being real racing because it' not on the track. I can agree it's not racing, but it's just an equalizer to compare which car is really faster in a given acceleration range without traction as a factor.

On a technical note, if you bought your car with those mods or even added them yourself in your sig, I can see why you don't think your car is fast enough to run an STI from the roll. First, the Perrin SRI loses HP over a stock airbox. Second, the last time I checked Arias pistons were 8.5 to 1 unless you got a specific set made at that comp. 8.5 Arias is what I know certain vendors carry. Most of all, I can probably guess how well that E-manage is working with everything.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

STI's and Evo's ain't all that shit people thinks.. heavy modded ones might be, but you can beat any stock STI and EVO with a good tune a some bolts on. those cars are heavier than our MSP's. AWD is good for launching hard with 0 traction issues. but when you are rolling AWD is just Bullshit.

I have friends that have beaten STi's and Evo's with Protégés with turbo kits and good tunes on it and they were not even MSP's. not to mention i have raped a few Heavy Modded Sti's and Evo's, as well as heavy modded SRT-4 Stage 3 on rolling races. i know for a fact i don't have a chance racing them from a standstill but, I always take them to my terror territory where i know i have potential and where everything is about what power you got and how good you know how to drive and that's called Rolling my friend, rolling racing are the best, and btw who the fuck have not race on the streets ? i bet everybody have done it, and they are still doing it, if you are modifying your car to be faster and you tell me you don't race in the streets, you are completely full of shit. you can take your car to the track and race it, no doubt about that, but we all know our daily track are called street and daily driving your car. I barely race my car on the streets, I'm a very respossible citizen, but that shit doesn't mean when some nice modded car gets next to me and tries me i'm not going to atleast try to show him what i got... I'm not promoting street racing in any manner, but that shit is happening and still will for years to come.

I mean we are comparing and talking about here cars that are completely different in Price, Technologies and horsepower, MSP vs STi but one thing is for sure, with some decent money and a good tune you can beat any stock Sti, any EVO including the MR and some SRT-4's. JDM-SAM have a bad ass MSP no doubt about that and I'm not impress at all seeing a Protégé Whooping an STI, I've seen them and done them as well.

[Velocifero]

So to kinda bring this back to topic... I dont think even with most if not all boltons you can beat some of these cars you guys speak of. I mean i recently got tuned and have a good amount of mods but fuck i just hit like 190whp on a Dynojet. The tuner is well known and knows his shit...maybe theres a issue with my car that i dunno about. But here are my mods and my dyno chart and you guys can see for yourselves (btw 1st dyno was just prepping up to see where the 440's (injectors) are at and how much fuel we need to add/pull etc).

Dont get me wrong i wasnt going for all out HP, but i was kinda hoping to hit atleast 200whp. At one point we heard slight pinging and hence didnt wanna push the motor even more. The other problem was with the 626 intake mani and the MSP Ecu and Unichip. In the middle you can slightly see on the dyno like a dip, i am thinking its the stock ECU trying to do whatever it does when VTCS/VICS gets activated. So sometimes when i drive i feel the car hit that spot and it just falls flat on its face. I see the boost go up, and the car goes no where then all of a sudden it picks the fuck up for that split second then i gotta shift...

-Injen CAI (converted to SRI) w/ Dryflow Filter
-BEGi FMIC w/ Turbo XS BOV and Forge Diverter Valve (Dual Setup)
-Steedspeed Exhaust Manifold (CNCed Manifold with Tubular inside design)
-Corksport S Pipe
-Vibrant Turbo Back Exhaust (techically its from the S pipe back)
-Separated Vac sources for BPV/BOV/Boost Gauge
-Unichip with D Module
-626 Intake Manifold (ported a bit (gasket matching mostly))
-440cc WRX Injectors
-Unichip Boost Controller
-Medievil Pullies (Crank, Water Pump and Alt, stock size but lightweight)
-9.5 psi boost on the stock unichip controller


So how you walk all these cars? LOL i have nooooo idea... i mean i like my msp and i understand its an econobox....but fucknuts! LOL

Damn man, it's not horrible numbers, but here is my comparison after adding the 626 mani and thermal spacers. I am running stock ECU and stock s-pipe. Vibrant exhaust with cat removed, Turbohoses SMIC w/ DSMConvert hardpipes, ATP wastegate and spring mod to get just right below 10psi, but close enough to just say 10psi. This is before I had the Thunder mani and the Steedspeed Prototype tester. Stock injectors, stock turbo, Injen CAI. Stock clutch, welded diff, DIY filled mounts. Dynojet, pretty hot weather and I drove about 40 minutes in traffic there. The earlier dyno was cold weather and the car was sitting there for quite a while.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Velocifero/626dyno.jpg

[Rush]

When street racing comes in, the thread fails.